Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Apr 2002 to 12 Apr 2002 (#2002-100) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 13/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 45 messages totalling 1703 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate (23) 2. The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate (13) 3. 2E vs 3E (3) 4. Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) 5. Dark Elves vs. Drow 6. Glantri Illithid adventure (3) 7. COVER ART ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:21:16 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Jordi Castille wrote: > When the idea of the Drow to be introduce to the underdark of Mystara > was discussed it was part of the concensus that we were to put a > moderate to a small kingdom of the drow underneathe the Adri Varma > plateau, We can even put a small Enclave in the Denagoth Plateau for > that idea. When was it discussed to even think about that horribly broken loser race of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:28:59 +1000 From: Alfred O'Meagher Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > When was it discussed to even think about that horribly broken loser race > of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? the problem is there is a clear as day (though not necessarily "canon"??) picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:37:36 -0500 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > From: SteelAngel > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:21:16 -0400 > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Jordi Castille wrote: > > > When the idea of the Drow to be introduce to the underdark of Mystara > > was discussed it was part of the concensus that we were to put a > > moderate to a small kingdom of the drow underneathe the Adri Varma > > plateau, We can even put a small Enclave in the Denagoth Plateau for > > that idea. > > When was it discussed to even think about that horribly broken loser race > of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? > > > Ethan > LOL!!!!!!!!!!! That is funny. Seriously though....IMO Drow do not belong in Mystara. We have the shadow elves and that is close enough. Placing Drow on Mystara will never happen IMC. Now anyone who wants to place them in thier own version of Mystara...go right ahead. Just dont expect the members of this list to embrace it with open arms ;) IMC the only drow ever to visit Mystara was from Toril and was a planewalker. Drow are a powerful force of evil who worship a deity not even part of the Mystara setting. The elves here don't even follow the standard elven deities. So you would have to put up a very convincing arguement to make me see why Drow should be a member race on Mystara, at least MY Mystara!!! Multizar the Mage _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:04:38 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Alfred O'Meagher wrote: > > When was it discussed to even think about that horribly broken loser race > > of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? > > the problem is there is a clear as day (though not necessarily "canon"??) > picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... Which could be (which has been discussed before) ignorance on the part of the artist of the cover. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:12:24 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Awhile back, on the bulletin board, I mentioned that IMC I have placed the = drow, as small groups of "Mafia-like" elves. And that they were gathering = together in the city of Pt. Siers/Freeport and hold a conference gathering = (500 of 'em). Their cover is that are from lands to the far south, any = trader in southern seas knows that's crap, so the party knows there is not = something right with these Black-skinned elves. The drow IMC refer to = themselves as members of the Black Rose. Though the drow are not well = known, the illegal organization known as the Black Rose is. It is their = plan in the near future to eliminate Lord Milton Drac and take the city = for their own.=20 JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:30:55 -0300 From: Just Another Grue Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Well, for my part, I've never played through WotI and Shadow Elves are about my favorite antagonist for Mystara. However I think Drow are quite useful as purely evil antagonists. I don't want Alfheim to fall but see the use of a surface elven migration. I'm starting my new campaign in 996 A.C. and will build towards WotI and see how it plays out for my new group. Instead of either just a Shadow Elf homeland in Karameikos or the desolation of Alfheim I'm opting for another route.... a Shadow Elf civil war as the Rafiel/Atzanteotl factions square off over the issues of peaceful settlement or continued war. The idea is still in its infancy yet. I expect there will be some destruction in Aflheim but that it will spill over into Darokin. One faction of Shadow Elves will be totally given over to war, vengeance and the destruction of their surface cousins. The other will only want a peaceful land of their own in the sunlight realms. The ones consumed by visions of Entropy will make a terrible pact for vengeance and become the ebon-skinned Drow. The Shadow Elves who follow Rafiel will eventually ally with their surface cousins, humans and dwarves. Even when they go through the ritual (mentioned by someone else) to live on the surface they will always remain very pale and prefer the twilight hours and night times. I'm not sure how it will work out since I can't predict my players that well. But that's the rough idea. mystaraknight@YAHOO.COM wrote: > Ah the great Drow-Shadow Elf Debate, we have heard this before alot, but for the sake of arguement, The Shadow Elves was developed to make thm unique to the D&D world of Mystara during it's original system, ..... > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 01:56:41 +1000 From: Alfred O'Meagher Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Drow can fit. Just as the Shadowelves go through their tortuous history, the Drow can be a subgroup who turn away from the surface, then turn back to the surface when the other Shadowelves keep going deep into the earth. The Drow arrive at the surface and are "burnt black" by the energies in the Broken Land. Then they turn back to the underground, encountering chokers and other noxious races, who ally with them because of the protection an Entropy immortal - known only as the Lolithor or Oath-Breaker in Elven - has extended to this mutated subrace of Elves. So in this way the Drow can be a lost race similar to the human subrace of the Lost Valley in Karameikos or other subraces. There don't have to be a lot of them, and their stuff should ALL burn up in sunlight, ie no keeping of powerful Drow stuff. With the Drow of the Underdark sourcebook there are enough runes and so on to make the Drow a functional Known World type race. And really, if people have Ierendi in a campaign, why not Drow? Drow are no sillier. Drow can be the enemy of ALL other Elves, since they represent a third force in Entropy politics, championed by whatever or whomever Lolithor / Loth / Lolth really is. OR Put them on one of the moons. A cavern race of lunar elves, dark as the shadows of their crater home. Turn the cavern city or cities into a series of caves whose roof is the floor of a crater. Could be interesting. Very interesting. Plus overpowered as they are the Drow couldn't do much harm on one of the moons - they are silly already. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:35:16 -0700 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E multizar2001@HOTMAIL.COM > I am currently teaching my son, who is 9, how to play D&D. > He has a 2nd level fighter and we are in the Dymrak Forest > hunting humanoids. I can hardly wait till my son is old enough. I've also been thinking of starting him with Basic, and am gonna grab all the PDFs so I'll have a permanent copy. (Books wear out eventually!) > 3rd edition is fine for the 15 to 25 crowd with plenty > of time on thier hands to learn all the rules and changes, > but as for this old fogey ;) That's the main thing for me. 3rd edition is a good game and I've had fun with it, but overall I just don't have the time or energy to put into it any more. Despite all my arguments in a previous post, the REAL reason I'm leaving 3E is it's just too time-consuming; I could deal with the rest. If I were a college student or single it would be a lot different. I stick to simple stuff anymore. Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, OR http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:42:07 -0700 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU wrote: >> the problem is there is a clear as day (though not necessarily >> "canon"??) picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > > Which could be (which has been discussed before) ignorance on the > part of the artist of the cover. Wasn't Alfheim published several years *before* the Shadow Elves? If so I wouldn't think it ignorance so much as later writers sometimes ignoring earlier hints because they came up with something more interesting. But I missed the discussion you're referring to... Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, OR http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:27:06 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Alfred O'Meagher wrote: > have Ierendi in a campaign, why not Drow? Drow are no sillier. Drow can be > the enemy of ALL other Elves, since they represent a third force in Entropy > politics, championed by whatever or whomever Lolithor / Loth / Lolth really > is. Irendi is silly in the style of the Mystara campaign (which really is very tongue in cheek). Drow are lame, pathetic, and a sad attempt at a race. Like 90% of everything else that came into it's own during the 2e years. IMHO, of course, not to start a flame war. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:30:21 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Mike Harvey wrote: > edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU wrote: > >> the problem is there is a clear as day (though not necessarily > >>"canon"??) picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > > > >Which could be (which has been discussed before) ignorance on the > >part of the artist of the cover. > =20 > Wasn't Alfheim published several years *before* the Shadow Elves? If > so I wouldn't think it ignorance so much as later writers sometimes > ignoring earlier hints because they came up with something more > interesting. But I missed the discussion you're referring to... Sure it was, but the Shadowelves were introduced in GAZ 5. In one of the = first paragraphs describing them, we see that they have "pale skin." The = dark-skinned lady on the cover is not a Shadowelf, not an Alfheim elf, = nor any Mystaran elf described in GAZ 5. I guess she was the victim of a = magical mishap or painted her body for some obscure ritual...or indeed = Mr. Caldwell was not properly informed... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:20:41 -0500 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) Tonight we are going to play DDA4 - The Dymrak Dread. I played this one with my old group about 5 years ago. Teaching my son how to play basic and how to role-play a character is very thrilling! Basic makes the rules easy to play and one day we may move up to AD&D. His fighter PC is based on the warrior in the vidio game Shadows of Mystara. We have it downloaded on the computer. He bought several bottles of oil and daggers to throw because of the game :) Tonight we take on the lair of the goblins !!!!!! He looks forward to the weekends and it has rekindled the old feeling I used to get when I was 14 and learning how to play!!!!!! Multizar the Mage, DM, and proud DAD :) > From: Mike Harvey > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:35:16 -0700 > > multizar2001@HOTMAIL.COM > >I am currently teaching my son, who is 9, how to play D&D. > >He has a 2nd level fighter and we are in the Dymrak Forest > >hunting humanoids. > > I can hardly wait till my son is old enough. I've also been thinking > of starting him with Basic, and am gonna grab all the PDFs so I'll > have a permanent copy. (Books wear out eventually!) > > >3rd edition is fine for the 15 to 25 crowd with plenty > >of time on thier hands to learn all the rules and changes, > >but as for this old fogey ;) > > That's the main thing for me. 3rd edition is a good game and I've had > fun with it, but overall I just don't have the time or energy to put > into it any more. Despite all my arguments in a previous post, the > REAL reason I'm leaving 3E is it's just too time-consuming; I could > deal with the rest. If I were a college student or single it would be > a lot different. I stick to simple stuff anymore. > > Mike > > -- > Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, OR > http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:49:38 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > When the idea of the Drow to be introduce to the underdark of Mystara > > was discussed it was part of the concensus that we were to put a > > moderate to a small kingdom of the drow underneathe the Adri Varma > > plateau, We can even put a small Enclave in the Denagoth Plateau for > > that idea. The Adri Varma plateau ??? I was devloping the Adri Varma plateau on the list and no one informed us... and we didnt find anything about it on the vaults also... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:51:24 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > When was it discussed to even think about that horribly broken loser race > > of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? > > the problem is there is a clear as day (though not necessarily "canon"??) > picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > Yeah, because this picture was drawn by an artist. There are lots of small errors if you look carefully in TSR books because of art. The most notable being the 2E monstrous manual roper, the description and the image just don't fit. I think that the artist was hired to draw shadow elves. He tought they were like in all fantasy settings made is image and TSR didnt want to pay him to make another correct one. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:56:24 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > Irendi is silly in the style of the Mystara campaign (which really is very > tongue in cheek). > > Drow are lame, pathetic, and a sad attempt at a race. Like 90% of > everything else that came into it's own during the 2e years. > > IMHO, of course, not to start a flame war. > > > Yes like Seraine, the sky gnomes some things in the Undersea Creature Crucible. I personnally think Drow ruin Mystara, but again everyone has different taste and can do what they want, but I personnally think that saying there is a concensus on the list that there are small Drow enclave near the known world is going a little far. If I see that in the almanacs then I'll beleive you, but this will also be the day I stop reading the almanacs. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:57:38 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E I perfectly understand what people are saying. I myself just yesterday, went to Japanese 6, Work, Capoeira, Japanese 13B, friends, then I went home. Today, I find out that work is moving at lightning speed, and I know I'll have to work this weekend to play catchup. However, nevertheless, from time to time, I read over D&D3e. I think you'll find future supplements mostly for 3e, or d20. The tidal wave is going in that direction. Of course, there'll be a few that don't go with the flow. I'm recruiting one of my friends to do mock battles and such using 3e, to help train me in the rules per say. He's a rule god. I also have a great imagination and run a good game (I hope :), so he wants me to GM for him and some friends once I come up to speed. Afterwards, I hope to move Mystara material to 3e. - joaquin > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Mike Harvey > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:35 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E > > > multizar2001@HOTMAIL.COM > >I am currently teaching my son, who is 9, how to play D&D. > >He has a 2nd level fighter and we are in the Dymrak Forest > >hunting humanoids. > > I can hardly wait till my son is old enough. I've also been thinking > of starting him with Basic, and am gonna grab all the PDFs so I'll > have a permanent copy. (Books wear out eventually!) > > >3rd edition is fine for the 15 to 25 crowd with plenty > >of time on thier hands to learn all the rules and changes, > >but as for this old fogey ;) > > That's the main thing for me. 3rd edition is a good game and I've had > fun with it, but overall I just don't have the time or energy to put > into it any more. Despite all my arguments in a previous post, the > REAL reason I'm leaving 3E is it's just too time-consuming; I could > deal with the rest. If I were a college student or single it would be > a lot different. I stick to simple stuff anymore. > > Mike > > -- > Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, OR > http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:13:57 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Beau Yarbrough > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:45 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E > > > At 15:13 4/11/02 -0700, macnerd wrote: > > >In 3E, > >each class has a specific list of supported skills and > stats. It makes it > >extremely complicated to create a base class. > > Huh? The classes listed ARE the base class. Or are > you saying it's hard to > replicate 2E classes? Because, even then, it's not -- all > their skills and > abilities are included in the 3E versions. I totally don't > get what you > mean here. No. I am saying there are base classes that have an exact set of skills for each class. 2E had class groups which had their own skill lists. The WARRIOR, PRIEST, WIZARD, ROGUE had their lists of skills and stats that all the classes were grouped under. It was simpler and smooth. 3E has each class have their specific set of skill list. It's more complicated. If a GM wanted to create classes, it's simplier in 2e, as he would create the class under one of the groups. In 3e, it's far more complicated, has one has to have a specific set of skills per that class. > >The 3E system did away of this and > >remade everyone into generic priests. > > Um, no. There's a whole section about Domains, and > they give specific > examples in the PHB of how the domains for priests of > different gods have > different spells and abilities. Specialty priests are now the > basic sort of > cleric in the game. However, it just isn't the same feel. Also, the speciality priests are done away with. Priests still seem too generic. But, there's pretige classes and such, so the same can be replicated with effort. > >In 3E, the system is more strict, and the skill list > >cannot be touched at all, > > Where do you get that? There's a number of new skills > in supplements both > by WotC and White Wolf. I talked with Dragon about submitting articles. They strongly discourage creating new skills. Though, third party submissions may include skills and other cool things, I think these are outside "officially" of D&D3e branded material. I'm not sure if WotC supplments would include skills, as this would go against their philosphy. Any skills added to the game, would have to be evaluated with each and every class in 3e, as the skill list is specific per class. In 2e, you simply chose the class category: GENERAL, WARRIOR, PRIEST, WIZARD, and ROGUE. You did not have to worry about every class, as when the skill is introduced into one of those areas, all classes will inherit those skills. > >It's not easy > >to learn the system, but I think it is essential. > > My two campaigns switched from 2E to 3E more or less > seamlessly, and > everyone commented how, after a single session, it all made > so much more > sense. Your mileage may vary, obviously. ;) All my future campaigns will be in 3e. The material for d20 and 3e is just freakin' immense. I picked up Call of Cathulu, Ravenloft, Fading Suns d20, and DeadLands d20. There's so much innovation and so many ideas. Some of them are similar to Mystara. :-) > >In 3E, the skill list is limited as are the classes. > > Aren't there more skills in 3E than there were in 2E? > > >For other d20 systems, they > >can create their own set of classes and skills which fit into that > >particular campaign. I am sure for unique games like DragonLance or > >DarkSun, this is what would happen. > > The new Ravenloft actually just created a new skill > or two (Hypnotism is > one of them, which is one you wanted back), a new feat or > two, and changed > half-orcs into something more Ravenloft-appropriate. Pretty > simple, and it > works great. > > >I can NEVER imagine a 3E system for > >Blackmoor, as I would want to add tech skills and classes, so I would > >probably gravitate towards to a Blackmoor-d20, rather than > Blackmoor-3e. > > The D20 Star Wars RPG would be a good starting point as well. Many criticize Star Wars d20, but nevertheless, there are some ideas there. >> From what I am told, is that the game was rushed, and that there'll be a second version with revised rules. I think Fading Suns has a lot of good material as well as this is sort of a dark ages in space campaign. > >Another things about 3E, is that any race can be any class. > I discourage > >this deeply, as Mystara has somewhat limited classes for > different regions. > >I would discourage a dwarven wizard, which is perfectly > reasonable in 3E, > >but not necessarily for Mystara. I had an argument about > the acceptability > >of a Paladin in Northern Reaches. One guy was overzealous > in the idea that > >anything can be played anywhere, so wizards, sorcerers, > bards, paladins in > >his mind was good for Northern Reaches. Though, I was > against this, as they > >don't culturally fit. The paladin's lay on hands, turn > undead, etc. just > >doesn't fit well in a pre-Christian Norse Viking > environment, which is > >similar to Northern Reaches. > > Well, it's your campaign. Beat the player with the > PHB until they agree to > read Rule Zero: Check with the DM first. I guess to each is there own. Some may want to mold Mystara into 3e, while otheres may want to mold 3e into Mystara. :-) I want to use the mechanics of 3e, but stick with Mystara campaign, and not Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or generic pulp-fantasy. For this reason, IMC, there is no language like COMMON, but rather Thyatian, Alphatian, Hulean, Traldaran, etc. I also think things like Dwarven Necromancers of Rockhome, or Viking Paladins, just don't fit. I would not want to use these. However, if players were overzealous, I wouldn't discourage them. I just would not want to promote material and create NPCs and support structures for such stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:19:24 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Mystara does not have any such notion of DROW. However, they do have DARK ELVES. There was an expelled Dwarven clan that had dealings with them and this is documented in Northern Reaches. Interestingly, this exiled Dwarven clan is more in line to the true Norse Dwarves, so naturally it was logical to add dark elves. I would think the Dark Elves are wholly unique and completely different that the FR or GH Drow. For that matter, I would not want to call them Drow, as this might confuse them with the latter, and simply use Dark Elves, as that is what Northern Reaches uses. And yes, Dark Elves are officially canon; though some people in the past tried to dimiss this... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:20:31 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate I forgot about that. Thus there are two canon accounts of Dark Elves. The cover of Alfheim and the Northern Reaches GAZ. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Alfred O'Meagher > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:29 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > > When was it discussed to even think about that horribly > broken loser race > > of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? > > the problem is there is a clear as day (though not > necessarily "canon"??) > picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:22:16 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate The closest things to the Drow in Mystara are the Dark Elves of the Northern Reaches. The Shadowelves are a distant second. Whenever I adapt something that has drow to Mystara, I just change them to dark elves and use GAZ7(which actually has very little information about them, but that allows me to fill in whatever I need). Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:23:13 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Why are you so against Dark Elves. It seems to be a personal matter for you. Maybe they were going to add material on the Dark Elves, but somehow they did not have enough time to fit it in the schedule. Why do you have to blast and flame the artist. I thought the art was good, and also the whole team produced the book and accepted the cover art. If you blast them, you blast the whole team, and if you blast the whole team, you in as sense blast the entirety of Mystara. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of SteelAngel > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:05 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Alfred O'Meagher wrote: > > > > When was it discussed to even think about that horribly > broken loser race > > > of crappy Shadow Elf wanna-bes in Mystara? > > > > the problem is there is a clear as day (though not > necessarily "canon"??) > > picture of one on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > > Which could be (which has been discussed before) ignorance on > the part of > the artist of the cover. > > > Ethan > > -- > Kinard 210 Linux Guru > Webmaster www.steelangel.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:26:57 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Though I agree with you about Drow being less that desirable (as presented in GH and later FR). I disagree about other Irendi and other things. I thought they were creative and are part of Mystara canon. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of SteelAngel > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:27 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Alfred O'Meagher wrote: > > > have Ierendi in a campaign, why not Drow? Drow are no > sillier. Drow can be > > the enemy of ALL other Elves, since they represent a third > force in Entropy > > politics, championed by whatever or whomever Lolithor / > Loth / Lolth really > > is. > > Irendi is silly in the style of the Mystara campaign (which > really is very > tongue in cheek). > > Drow are lame, pathetic, and a sad attempt at a race. Like 90% of > everything else that came into it's own during the 2e years. > > IMHO, of course, not to start a flame war. > > > Ethan > > -- > Kinard 210 Linux Guru > Webmaster www.steelangel.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:29:34 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate I can agree to go with a unique race, but not Drow. I agree with Ethan about Drow being pathetic. I actually purchased FR Drow material as was deeply disgusted as I thought this was the some of the worst material I read coming out of TSR. However, I would support the notion of Dark Elves mention in Northern Reaches and shown on the cover of Alfheim. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:44:05 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > I forgot about that. Thus there are two canon accounts > of Dark Elves. The cover of Alfheim and the Northern > Reaches GAZ. > I wouldnt count the cover of the Alfheim gaz as canon source to prove drow or dark elves. It is clear the intention of the cover was not to say there are Dark elves on Mystara even if we don't even squeeze just a word of it in the Elven Gazatteer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:47:23 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > Mystara does not have any such notion of DROW. However, they do have DARK > ELVES. > There was an expelled Dwarven clan that had dealings with them and this is > documented in Northern Reaches. Although, these 'dark elves' are not much more than a mention, there are no stats, description, or anything else about them in any other supplement. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:48:48 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate schedule. > > Why do you have to blast and flame the artist. I > thought the art was good, and also the whole team > produced the book and accepted the cover art. If you > blast them, you blast the whole team, and if you > blast the whole team, you in as sense blast the > entirety of Mystara. > on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > > > > Which could be (which has been discussed before) ignorance on > > the part of > > the artist of the cover. WHAT???? !!!! He wasnt flamming the artist. What are you talking about ? He said the artist must have been ignorant of the shadow elves appearance which was probably the case. I don't think that the artist read the Gaz, prolly when it was devlopped TSR contacted the artist and said we want an image with this and that on it, well pay X dollars. And what about blasting the whole team, that doesnt make any sense at all. You cant say things and then attack someone because you take your opinion as a fact. Prove to me that by saying the artist was ignorant of their appearance he is blasting the whole team, for exemple the author who penned the gazetteer ? Or the interior artist ? And why would that blast Mystara ? You seem to be the one getting personal about it. There are some adventures particularly in the B series which aren't stellar. It is ok to say for exemple that author X wasnt that good, but how would that blast Mystara. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:49:51 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Dark Elves vs. Drow As the Drow are presented in FR and GH, I wholly do not support this. This is a poorly thought out society and really poor material. Anyone who has taken sociology or anthropology can understand the numerous mistakes within FR material. Not only that the whole god doesn't exist. It's just a poor match for Mystara in many regards. However, I would support a completely unique race of beings called the Dark Elves, which have nothing to do with FR/GH material. IMC, I have Dark Elves as being psionic and living in a complete underworld hidden from all surface dwellers. They are hidden for many reasons, as their discovery or interference could lead to their destruction. I also draw a relation between the fall of the Nithian Empire and the Dark Elves, and it is for some of these reasons they remain hidden. The secret enemy of the gnomes are the Dark Elves, as the gnomes are immune to the psiconic effects of the Dark Elves. As an added twist, the Dark Elves abduct small communities of humans or other races and conduct experiments. They study humans and other races for ways to advance their race. These denizens live in a separate a world of illusion, and they never know that they have been removed from their community. Sometimes their roles are suddenly changed without the slightest awareness. Some who become aware of the true environment, quickly disappear. The Dark Elves wander the surface world, but the most of the surface world cannot see them. This is a similar affect to the Faerie (Tales of the Wee Folk). Sometimes they can assume the form of another. This affect is a mind-altering affect, where the victim simply does not notice the Dark Elf, or the victim is convinced that the Dark Elf is a some other person. Some whom have visited this magical underworld, come to understand the magic and alien logic of these interworkings. Once they do, they disappear from the surface world, and are forever a guest of the underworld. They can be freed by going through a mindwhipe where they forget all knowledge of ever having visited the underworld. Some psionically endowed PCs, can possibly enter and re-enter the underworld and avoid the effects. There are magical doors that are pscionically triggered and lead to the underworld. The Dark Elves are not necessarily evil, but just very different and alien. They seem unemotionally and more scientific, and have little regard for life forms they consider lesser. They see their test subjects with little respect beyond that of a lab animal. There are some that have sympathy and try to help avert suffering of other beings. Those these people are punished for such transgressions as this is considered treason against the Dark Elf race. - joaquin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:50:45 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > Though I agree with you about Drow being less that > desirable (as presented in GH and later FR). > > I disagree about other Irendi and other things. > I thought they were creative and are part of Mystara canon. > I think the point he was making is that Ierendi is silly in a good way. I find Serraine extremely silly but extremely cool too. When I send my players there is pretty wacky and we laugh all night and that's something that's very Mystaran, and creative as you put it. But I think the poeple involved in this discussion ( including me ) were all thinking that Ierendi and Serrain are canon Mystara. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:53:12 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > a personal matter for you. Maybe they were going to > add material on the Dark Elves, but somehow they did > not have enough time to fit it in the schedule. Calm down. I hate drow. Period. It does not seem likely that the author of Alfheim had any ideas about black skinned elves, and as the artwork is not always representative of contents, I consider this idea apocryphal. > Why do you have to blast and flame the artist. I > thought the art was good, and also the whole team > produced the book and accepted the cover art. If you > blast them, you blast the whole team, and if you > blast the whole team, you in as sense blast the > entirety of Mystara. Ahem. That is a logical leap from point A to point Z without a bungee cord. The authors of the text most probably never saw the artwork until the project was finished, and then, I severely doubt that one off-hand cover painting would be too much of a problem for the product as a whole. My comments are FAR from blasting anything but the artist's mistake. Get over it. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:52:26 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > However, I would support the notion of Dark Elves > mention in Northern Reaches and shown on the cover > of Alfheim. > Yes that could be great as the Dark Elves are mentioned in the Norther Reaches, that would be a great way to concialiate the artwork, a creative way indeed, but a good one nonetheless. I think someone has done something on this already on the list if im not mistaken. At least I know it was discussed before on this list. I think I'll go check the Vaults to see if there's already stuff on this. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:54:53 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > I disagree about other Irendi and other things. > I thought they were creative and are part of Mystara canon. And this is disagreeing with me how? Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:20:31 -0400 From: Michael McConnell Subject: Glantri Illithid adventure Where is this adventure located? I came across a couple of references at the Vaults saying it was in the Glantri boxed set, but I have that and don't remember seeing it at all. ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:47:36 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate macnerd wrote: > Mystara does not have any such notion of DROW. However, they do have = DARK > ELVES. > There was an expelled Dwarven clan that had dealings with them and = this is > documented in Northern Reaches. Only they didn't actually, if you look in the Hollow World set. The = Modrigswerg were expelled because they had dealings with Dark Elves and = cultists, according to GAZ 7. But later in the Hollow World DM's = Sourcebook, we're told that the Modrigswerg were really planted in the = Northern Reaches (where they actually used to live, before the dwarven = race was recreated) with false memories of having lived in Rockhome and = being expelled from there. With no mention of Dark Elves anywhere, I can = only conclude that they were part of those false memories. Apparently = Allston didn't want any Dark Elves on Mystara either. > And yes, Dark Elves are officially canon; though some people in the = past > tried to dimiss this... Well, as I've just related, later canon sources seem to dismiss this = too. Not that I hold anything against people wanting to go by GAZ 7. = Svartalfen are appropriate for a campaign inspired by viking legends. But to introduce something new here: For their color, I'm not sure I'd = want them to be black; Dark referring to their disposition, not their = skin, IMO. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:51:27 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: Glantri Illithid adventure I recall that the adventures were on loose pages included on the box sheet, every page had a map and short description of the adventure with all the stats. Each one of those adventures was designed for an evening's play. So check those pages, I recall it as one of the higher level adventures. There are two other(obscure) references to illithids on Mystara- Polyhedron #100 has a short article by Bruce Heard, where an illithid plans a visit to Mystara to investigate some odd phenomena it has detected. According to that article, illithids are not native to Mystara. The phenomena turns out to be a trap for the illithid set by Glantrian wizards. Dragon #206 or #207 mentions in passing that a ruined site in Karameikos has been infested with monsters on and off throughout the centuries, including once a group of illithids. Dave Keyser Michael McConnell wrote: > Where is this adventure located? I came across a couple of > references at the Vaults saying it was in the Glantri boxed set, > but I have that and don't remember seeing it at all. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:02:44 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Jacob Skytte wrote: > macnerd wrote: > > > Mystara does not have any such notion of DROW. However, they do have DARK > > ELVES. > > There was an expelled Dwarven clan that had dealings with them and this is > > documented in Northern Reaches. > > Only they didn't actually, if you look in the Hollow World set. The Modrigswerg were expelled because they had dealings with Dark Elves and cultists, according to GAZ 7. But later in the Hollow World DM's Sourcebook, we're told that the Modrigswerg were really planted in the Northern Reaches (where they actually used to live, before the dwarven race was recreated) with false memories of having lived in Rockhome and being expelled from there. Completely true. > With no mention of Dark Elves anywhere, I can only conclude that they were part of those false memories. Apparently Allston didn't want any Dark Elves on Mystara either. Now, I admit to nitpicking here but this is an assumption on your part. It doesn't say that the Dark Elves were false memories at all, only that the false memories were they lived in Rockhome and were expelled from there. It really can go either way. I don't have GAZ7 in front of me, but I seem to recall that the dark elves were native to an outer plane that was part of Viking mythology, like the world tree. As such dark elves are really optional, and with so little information about them, you can make them anything you want, and if you don't want them, they have left or never had a presence on Mystara. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:09:31 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate OK. Don't go violent. I don't have anything to get over. Besides I pretty much agree with you on "DROW" concept. However, I think you might have something... ...to get over. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of SteelAngel > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:53 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > > > a personal matter for you. Maybe they were going to > > add material on the Dark Elves, but somehow they did > > not have enough time to fit it in the schedule. > > Calm down. I hate drow. Period. It does not seem likely that > the author of > Alfheim had any ideas about black skinned elves, and as the > artwork is not > always representative of contents, I consider this idea apocryphal. > > > Why do you have to blast and flame the artist. I > > thought the art was good, and also the whole team > > produced the book and accepted the cover art. If you > > blast them, you blast the whole team, and if you > > blast the whole team, you in as sense blast the > > entirety of Mystara. > > Ahem. That is a logical leap from point A to point Z without a bungee > cord. The authors of the text most probably never saw the > artwork until the > project was finished, and then, I severely doubt that one > off-hand cover > painting would be too much of a problem for the product as a whole. > > My comments are FAR from blasting anything but the artist's > mistake. Get > over it. > > > Ethan > > -- > Kinard 210 Linux Guru > Webmaster www.steelangel.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:13:49 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Not really. Honest. I agree with the Drow being bad concept, but I would like to make a supposition about "dark elves" and see if that would go over more smoothly. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Gilles Leblanc > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:49 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > schedule. > > > > Why do you have to blast and flame the artist. I > > thought the art was good, and also the whole team > > produced the book and accepted the cover art. If you > > blast them, you blast the whole team, and if you > > blast the whole team, you in as sense blast the > > entirety of Mystara. > > > on the cover of the Elves of Alfheim... > > > > > > Which could be (which has been discussed before) ignorance on > > > the part of > > > the artist of the cover. > > WHAT???? !!!! > > He wasnt flamming the artist. What are you talking about ? He said the > artist must have been ignorant of the shadow elves appearance > which was > probably the case. I don't think that the artist read the > Gaz, prolly when > it was devlopped TSR contacted the artist and said we want an > image with > this and that on it, well pay X dollars. > > And what about blasting the whole team, that doesnt make any > sense at all. > You cant say things and then attack someone because you take > your opinion as > a fact. Prove to me that by saying the artist was ignorant of their > appearance he is blasting the whole team, for exemple the > author who penned > the gazetteer ? Or the interior artist ? > > And why would that blast Mystara ? You seem to be the one > getting personal > about it. There are some adventures particularly in the B > series which > aren't stellar. It is ok to say for exemple that author X > wasnt that good, > but how would that blast Mystara. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:52:20 +1000 From: Alfred O'Meagher Subject: COVER ART On a topic inspired by the discussion of cover art, has anyone (else) = tried to make a map of the bits of map behind the pictures and logo's on = the gazette covers? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:00:06 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Glantri Illithid adventure If you look at the one page adventure sheets there is one in the Glantri: Kingdom of magic set. It explains an adventure idea of an Illithid invading the temple of Rad for treasure but discovers the Radiance. You should be able to find it there. If you want another Illithid Adventure which i suggest a location for the Illthiad to begin, go to my Mystara online website at http://mktriton.tripod.com/index.html All the Monsterous Arcana adventures and where to set them are there, plus where to put the Lost Tombs of Greyhawk Trilogy as well in the known world version only at this moment. Michael McConnell wrote: Where is this adventure located? I came across a couple of references at the Vaults saying it was in the Glantri boxed set, but I have that and don't remember seeing it at all. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:11:49 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate SteelAngel wrote: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > a personal matter for you. Maybe they were going to > add material on the Dark Elves, but somehow they did > not have enough time to fit it in the schedule. Calm down. I hate drow. Period. It does not seem likely that the author of Alfheim had any ideas about black skinned elves, and as the artwork is not always representative of contents, I consider this idea apocryphal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, i like the drow, the source books on theme are very good, Like the Drow of the Underdark book, and the Queen of the Spiders Trilogy were really good adventures. Night Below has a great adventure hook to put your adventure anywhere you want to put it, I like toI Use the Matriarchal Lifestyle of the Drow as a model for a Radical Region of Pelatan IMC. I don't see any reason why not to put Drow on Mystara, If i had a choice to put between Illithids, and Drow, for my campaign, I would pick the Drow, because I have a hard time understanding Psionics. If you don't like the Drow, then I am sorry, In this mailing list there will be one person who hates the Drow and One who likes the Drow. Jordi, Knight of Mystara. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 04:53:00 +0200 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Andres_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Wow, drow really stir passions around here... I've never been too attracted to them (they look a bit like the all-powerful villain, with their nifty special abilities, magic resistance, poisons, cool equipment and classes), but they can make for good adventures. In Mystara, I could drop them in as a nasty surprise just with a small "alien" feeling, and there are two nice hooks in the Known World: the Nilfheim Dark Elves (passingly mentioned in GAZ7) and Dark Faeries (quite a possibility, though PC1 has more seelie than unseelie information). If they're like an Otherworldy menace (and the Mystara cosmology is conveniently full of mysterious Outer Planes), their terrible abilities and twisted society make a better impact, especially on Mystaran elves, surface or Shadow, who can wonder about those dark cousins. Andres ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 20:09:11 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Gilles, Back in '99' when i was on the MML before wizard took over, the talk was about the what to put in the adri varma plateau both above and below it, me and Fabrizio Paoli and later Cthuludrew agreed that the Drow would have a small place in the Adri Varma Plateua, as a place to modify and place the Night Below Campaign Expansion set. Most people don't understand about the Dark Elves, what are they going to call themselves when you meet them? Dark Elves:Hi, We're the Dark Elves, We're here to kill you for seeing use. Annoying Halfling in the party(Similar to a kender, only this one refuse to wears shoes like the kender does)Are you suppose to be like Dark Meat on a turkey? Dark Elves:Yes, i mean no, we are not like dark meat on poultry foolish halfling. Annoying Halfling:Couldn't you come up with a more menacing name than the Dark Elves, it makes you sound Depressing. Dark Elves:You think? Annoying Halfling:After all this time, you're race can't come up with a more menacing name that would strike fear in the heart of all other races above the ground? Dark Elves:Well,.....we Annoying Halfling:come back when you come up with a scary name, okay Dark Elves:yeah....okay. I mean come on, make a name for them, why just call them the Dark Elves, that like calling the Tangoro men as Dark Man. Gilles Leblanc wrote: > > Irendi is silly in the style of the Mystara campaign (which really is very > tongue in cheek). > > Drow are lame, pathetic, and a sad attempt at a race. Like 90% of > everything else that came into it's own during the 2e years. > > IMHO, of course, not to start a flame war. > > > Yes like Seraine, the sky gnomes some things in the Undersea Creature Crucible. I personnally think Drow ruin Mystara, but again everyone has different taste and can do what they want, but I personnally think that saying there is a concensus on the list that there are small Drow enclave near the known world is going a little far. If I see that in the almanacs then I'll beleive you, but this will also be the day I stop reading the almanacs. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 20:35:58 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Ierendei was designed to have an islander type of culture, yet tourisy, and if you are going to create a island culture you have to give it a very mighty naval force to defend itself, IMHO I think the Duerger are more pathetic attempt at creating a dark dwarven race, than the drow. SteelAngel wrote: Irendi is silly in the style of the Mystara campaign (which really is very tongue in cheek). Drow are lame, pathetic, and a sad attempt at a race. Like 90% of everything else that came into it's own during the 2e years. IMHO, of course, not to start a flame war. --------------------------------------------------------- Too late, the flame war has just begun. Jordi Castille. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:08:32 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate LOL!!!!!!!!!!! That is funny. Seriously though....IMO Drow do not belong in Mystara. We have the shadow elves and that is close enough. Placing Drow on Mystara will never happen IMC. Now anyone who wants to place them in thier own version of Mystara...go right ahead. Just dont expect the members of this list to embrace it with open arms ;) IMC the only drow ever to visit Mystara was from Toril and was a planewalker. Drow are a powerful force of evil who worship a deity not even part of the Mystara setting. The elves here don't even follow the standard elven deities. So you would have to put up a very convincing arguement to make me see why Drow should be a member race on Mystara, at least MY Mystara!!! Multizar the Mage _________________________________________________________________ Okay, The arguement is that the Shadow Elves are not evil, they are just isolationist, the ones who worship Rafiel are very isolated and neutral, while the ones who worship Atzanteotl are blood thirsty and evil, but if you want an evil elven race you have the Drow, the problem with the Shadow Elves is that they are just isolated to the Known World region if you wish to use the Canon material. what about Skothar and Davania, The Savage coast or the Izondian region? What should they have for evil Elves, what made the elves migrate from Davania in the great elven migration, it can't be the shadow elves, they were the ones who where rejected by the Alfheim Elves and became the shadow elves by Rafiel when he discovered the Radiance. IMO, the Drow prior to their corruption were led by Lolithor, an elven warrior woman, after driving out the Elves from Davania, they were corrupted into becoming the Drow, and now they can pose as Yavi people, clever no? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:27:03 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Andres_Piquer_Otero wrote: Wow, drow really stir passions around here... I've never been too attracted to them (they look a bit like the all-powerful villain, with their nifty special abilities, magic resistance, poisons, cool equipment and classes), but they can make for good adventures. In Mystara, I could drop them in as a nasty surprise just with a small "alien" feeling, and there are two nice hooks in the Known World: the Nilfheim Dark Elves (passingly mentioned in GAZ7) and Dark Faeries (quite a possibility, though PC1 has more seelie than unseelie information). If they're like an Otherworldy menace (and the Mystara cosmology is conveniently full of mysterious Outer Planes), their terrible abilities and twisted society make a better impact, especially on Mystaran elves, surface or Shadow, who can wonder about those dark cousins. Andres ******************************************************************** Nice to know some people like the Drow, but if you want nastier creatures, look at the Illithids with their psionics and their use of mentalism, then you have the Beholders, oh god, I would have the party face off against an Ancient Red Dragon, then take on a beholder, Dragon will focus on one opponent while a beholder can focus on many opponents at once. That's why i would love to have the Drow IMC. Jordi Castille Knight of Daroking mktriton.tripod.com/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Apr 2002 to 12 Apr 2002 (#2002-100) ****************************************************************