Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 May 2004 to 14 May 2004 (#2004-104) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 15/05/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 986 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RW Normans in Italy (2) 2. Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? (6) 3. RW Holland/Netherlands (7) 4. Land of The Black Horde ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:28:43 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: RW Normans in Italy Morten Greis wrote: > > I thought that the Mystaram Northmen already had settled in Grand Duchy of > Westrourke around Finegar's Watch and in the northern end of Fengallen Marsh, > as the placenames are of a Nordic type: Hognerud's Keep, Guddar, Tromsheim, > Nordvik, Finnegar and Ytre Ystrebo (meaning Outer Eastsettlement, though I > would prefer naming it Ydre Østerbo). Yes, though that is more in line with the RW Northmen in, say, the British isles, considering the original culture of the IoD. Probably Northmen seizing Tameronikas (or Tel Akbir) would be the closest match to the Normans in Southern Italy. > However to stick with the Normans in Italy idea, some of these Northmen, let's > call them Northlanders, would be hired as mercenaries, perhaps by the lord of > Helskir risking that the Northlanders might take control of Helskir or that > they might carve out dominions in Dunadale (which could be superb for the lord > of Helskir, as they would function as a bufferzone). The reputation of the > Northlander mercenaries might spread, so that Thyatian generals in the > Hinterlands might request their skills and they therefore end up settling in > the Hinterlands (thereby getting the strange result of RW Normans ruling RW > celts in Jungles). Another alternative might by a Alphatian commander bringing > Northlanders further east to the Jennite areas ... All of these are good ideas for new Northmen settlements in Mystara. Some of them could evolve into strong feudal monarchies (especially in Dunadale), and threaten their former employers. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:38:50 -0700 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? maps of this region are available on my site (www.mystara.fr.st), probably in the brun continent section. they were based on Christian Constantin own maps. but if i remember correctly, the babitat is not very similar to the ethengar plains... it's much more forests and bogs and marshes...not very friendly place ... --- Andrew Theisen wrote: > jason o'brien wrote: Didn't you > create a map of northern brun that contained lands > controlled by > different groups. Are some of these descended from > these peshwa tribes you > mention. did you ever do any write up on these > lands? if so where can they > be found? also would the nomad tribes just north of > hule be some of these > peshwahan descendants. > > No- you might be thinking of someone else (Christian > Constantin, maybe?) I think I recall the maps you're > referring to. > > I'm not sure how extensive the coverage of those > lands/maps was, but you raise a good question. I'll > have to check them out and see if I can find anymore > information. Although, come to think of it, I think > those cover mostly the further western regions (ie, > north of Hule but west of the Black Mountains) and > the region I'm suggesting would be just to the west > of Wendar/Denagoth, and east of the Black Mountains. > Still, I'll have to check out the info you are > talking about. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:33:07 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. It is interesting that you are trying to tackle this now. The region northwest of Wendar is called the Northern Wildlands (from the Saga of the Shadowlord map). I always figured that was home to an Athruagin-like culture, but the Ethengars could fit in there aswell. West of the Northern Wildlands is the Borean Valley, which is where the Beasmen were created. I imagine that enormous valley is home to a thousand small humanoid kingdoms. West of those again, north of the Midlands, that could be an interesting place for a Greater Ethengar. Perhaps the Empire of the Great Khan could be placed there instead of on Skothar? I have been thinking about relocating the Ethengars IMC. I figured that right now they are in the way of Heldann expansion. My idea was that the Ethengars, escaping Heldannic agression ventured through the Spirit Plane and ended up on Skothar with the Empire of the Great Khan there, but if that Empire is to the west instead I dont have to resort to such supernatural means. Once the Heldanners have taken over, the Land of Black sand becomes a very dark place. The spirits are offended by their intrusion and leave, letting fiendish creatures take over the place.. And ofcourse, groups of Ethengars remain behind, keeping the resistance going from their hiding places near the mountains... Havard --- Andrew Theisen skrev: > I mentioned this idea on the MML sometime last week, > and had prepared a post about it here, but it got > lost in a connection crash, so I never got back > around to posting it. > > Anyway, the idea was that, what if those northern > plains areas (to the west/northwest of Wendar) were > inhabited by Ethengarian-like people? It always > seemed to me that the Ethengarians got sort of > "crammed" into their spot, and they are so wildly > different culturally than anyone else around them > (like the Atruaghins, to name another) that they got > sort of a short shrift. > > My theory was roughly thus: The Peshwah/Pexua > peoples, after fleeing from the rising > Blackmoor/Thonia expansion, arrived on the (future) > Isle of Dawn. They spread out among the western > shores of the IoD, as well as the eastern shores of > Brun (via the landbridge that broke apart and became > the Ostland isles). To their north lay the Antalian > tribes, to the southwest the Oltec/Azcan people, to > the west several clans of elves (the shadowelf > descendants). Neathar people were scattered all > around. They also brought with them the horse, > previously unknown on Brun, but which quickly became > adopted by their neighbors (in particular, the Oltec > people- from whence the Horse Clan eventually rose > to prominence). > > The Great Rain of Fire caused cataclysms which > ultimately broke the Isle of Dawn off from the > mainland, and separated the Pexua from one another. > Some remained on Brun, some ended up on Ochalea > (later to be absorbed/assimilated/annihilated by > Alphatians), some remained on the IoD itself (and > their fate remains unknown currently). Even later, > when Akkila-Khan's hordes tore through from the > northwest, they scattered all sorts of human tribes > before them, but most particularly the Pexua people. > Many of them were driven north and westwards, while > a sizable group was enslaved by the humanoid horde. > These tribes, the Ethengarian tribes, came to adopt > some of the ways of the humanoids (their heirarchy, > for one, as well as their more warlike aspects) and > ultimately drove the humanoids out into the newly > shattered lands to the south (the Broken Lands). As > a result of the cataclysm that broke the southern > lands, and the creation of the Land of Black Sand, > these tribes came to have a close > connection with the spirit world. > > But what of their cousins, who escaped the tyranny > of Akkila-khan and his hordes? They remain, to this > day, as nomads of the northern steppes, perhaps > awaiting a time when they will be reunited with > their Ethengarian cousins... > > (Anyway, just throwing this out as an idea. I'd > imagine they don't have shamans and such, but would > be largely similar to the Ethengarians, probably not > quite as unified as even the squabbling tribes of > the khanates. With the right leadership, though... a > truly massive horde might one day rock the known > world!) > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:59:50 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? I did a write up of pre-Ethengarians that were assimilated by orcs and ogres from Sind, the Ogrhiz in that area. ============================================================ From: Andrew Theisen Date: 2004/05/13 Thu PM 08:34:04 EDT To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? jason o'brien wrote: Didn't you create a map of northern brun that contained lands controlled by different groups. Are some of these descended from these peshwa tribes you mention. did you ever do any write up on these lands? if so where can they be found? also would the nomad tribes just north of hule be some of these peshwahan descendants. No- you might be thinking of someone else (Christian Constantin, maybe?) I think I recall the maps you're referring to. I'm not sure how extensive the coverage of those lands/maps was, but you raise a good question. I'll have to check them out and see if I can find anymore information. Although, come to think of it, I think those cover mostly the further western regions (ie, north of Hule but west of the Black Mountains) and the region I'm suggesting would be just to the west of Wendar/Denagoth, and east of the Black Mountains. Still, I'll have to check out the info you are talking about. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ============================================================ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:26:41 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giampaolo Agosta" > Ah, but then you might want to explain how it comes that the Cimarron, who are of "eastern" (Traladaran/Thyatian, probably) descent, speak English -- notably, a language that doesn't have a Mystaran equivalent outside a small number of seemingly unrelated languages: Anglais (Fenswick), Bellaynish (the "human" language of Bellayne) and Cimarron. > We could use Eusdria (M-Anglo-Saxon?) as a starting point, certainly, and Thyatian (Slag, M-Latin/Greek) to take the role of French in the evolution of English. > Not entirely convincing, though. My personal explanation is that eusdrian (a sort of anglo-saxon) and dunael (welsh and similar) related languages were the original languages of the neathar people living in the interior of Brun in blackmoorian times, mentioned in several canon and uncanon sources. Then those people migrated in the Isle of Dawn or were deported by the Nithians in Davania. Thyatian (M-latin/italian) evolved from both "eusdrian" and milenian (greek), while hattian (german) evolved from "eusdrian" only. M-English for me is a sort of original kerendan language that the thyatians brought both to Glantri (IMC I have used the otherwordly origin only for some glantrian families, not for all the inhabitants of Averoigne, Klantyre and Fenswick) and the Savage Coast. Or it could be a savage coast original language evolved from Eusdria, or both. BTW, what's the darokian language in you campaigns? for me is derived from ancient thyatian and so it should be a sort of englicized latin or latinized english with a bit of french and spanish in it :-) (I use latin as thyatian and italian as caurenzian only) > That's a mystery. BTW, it is possible that the Flaemaker gnomes of Valoin-Flaemaker in the HW (M-Belgium, probably) do speak a variant of Flaem/Dutch, though there's no reason for this :) > > Does alphatian have any simmilarity > > to flaemish? IMC Alphatian is an aramaic/babilonian/sumerian language, while for Flaem I don't think that Glantri was completely uninhabited when the flaem arrived, so flaem could be a fusion of original alphatian and of a native language of northern people like the inhabitants of Wendar, Norwold and Heldann lands... Or Flaem could be simply a mixture of alphatian and various planar languages that the Flaem encountered, with a bit of thyatian/heldann/northern languages (to explain the "german-like" sound of Dutch). bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:30:53 -0700 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? i like that any pain in the "back" of my beloved HK is always welcome, for with Vanya's blessing will will crush them all!!! --- Havard Faanes wrote: > This is something that has been bothering me for a > long time. It is interesting that you are trying to > tackle this now. The region northwest of Wendar is > called the Northern Wildlands (from the Saga of the > Shadowlord map). I always figured that was home to > an > Athruagin-like culture, but the Ethengars could fit > in > there aswell. West of the Northern Wildlands is the > Borean Valley, which is where the Beasmen were > created. I imagine that enormous valley is home to a > thousand small humanoid kingdoms. West of those > again, > north of the Midlands, that could be an interesting > place for a Greater Ethengar. Perhaps the Empire of > the Great Khan could be placed there instead of on > Skothar? > > I have been thinking about relocating the Ethengars > IMC. I figured that right now they are in the way of > Heldann expansion. My idea was that the Ethengars, > escaping Heldannic agression ventured through the > Spirit Plane and ended up on Skothar with the Empire > of the Great Khan there, but if that Empire is to > the > west instead I dont have to resort to such > supernatural means. Once the Heldanners have taken > over, the Land of Black sand becomes a very dark > place. The spirits are offended by their intrusion > and > leave, letting fiendish creatures take over the > place.. > > And ofcourse, groups of Ethengars remain behind, > keeping the resistance going from their hiding > places > near the mountains... > > Havard > > --- Andrew Theisen skrev: > I > mentioned this idea on the MML sometime last week, > > and had prepared a post about it here, but it got > > lost in a connection crash, so I never got back > > around to posting it. > > > > Anyway, the idea was that, what if those northern > > plains areas (to the west/northwest of Wendar) > were > > inhabited by Ethengarian-like people? It always > > seemed to me that the Ethengarians got sort of > > "crammed" into their spot, and they are so wildly > > different culturally than anyone else around them > > (like the Atruaghins, to name another) that they > got > > sort of a short shrift. > > > > My theory was roughly thus: The Peshwah/Pexua > > peoples, after fleeing from the rising > > Blackmoor/Thonia expansion, arrived on the > (future) > > Isle of Dawn. They spread out among the western > > shores of the IoD, as well as the eastern shores > of > > Brun (via the landbridge that broke apart and > became > > the Ostland isles). To their north lay the > Antalian > > tribes, to the southwest the Oltec/Azcan people, > to > > the west several clans of elves (the shadowelf > > descendants). Neathar people were scattered all > > around. They also brought with them the horse, > > previously unknown on Brun, but which quickly > became > > adopted by their neighbors (in particular, the > Oltec > > people- from whence the Horse Clan eventually rose > > to prominence). > > > > The Great Rain of Fire caused cataclysms which > > ultimately broke the Isle of Dawn off from the > > mainland, and separated the Pexua from one > another. > > Some remained on Brun, some ended up on Ochalea > > (later to be absorbed/assimilated/annihilated by > > Alphatians), some remained on the IoD itself (and > > their fate remains unknown currently). Even later, > > when Akkila-Khan's hordes tore through from the > > northwest, they scattered all sorts of human > tribes > > before them, but most particularly the Pexua > people. > > Many of them were driven north and westwards, > while > > a sizable group was enslaved by the humanoid > horde. > > These tribes, the Ethengarian tribes, came to > adopt > > some of the ways of the humanoids (their > heirarchy, > > for one, as well as their more warlike aspects) > and > > ultimately drove the humanoids out into the newly > > shattered lands to the south (the Broken Lands). > As > > a result of the cataclysm that broke the southern > > lands, and the creation of the Land of Black Sand, > > these tribes came to have a close > > connection with the spirit world. > > > > But what of their cousins, who escaped the tyranny > > of Akkila-khan and his hordes? They remain, to > this > > day, as nomads of the northern steppes, perhaps > > awaiting a time when they will be reunited with > > their Ethengarian cousins... > > > > (Anyway, just throwing this out as an idea. I'd > > imagine they don't have shamans and such, but > would > > be largely similar to the Ethengarians, probably > not > > quite as unified as even the squabbling tribes of > > the khanates. With the right leadership, though... > a > > truly massive horde might one day rock the known > > world!) > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: > http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ===== > *** > Håvard R. Faanes > www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa > > ______________________________________________________ > Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på > http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ > Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med > superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 05:36:27 -0700 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? my mistake there is indeed enough plains for the ethengar to relocate... the map on my site is an 24 miles per hex, so there is more than enough space thib --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > I did a write up of pre-Ethengarians that were > assimilated by orcs and ogres from Sind, the Ogrhiz > in that area. > ============================================================ > From: Andrew Theisen > Date: 2004/05/13 Thu PM 08:34:04 EDT > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Ethengars of the Northern > Steppes? > > jason o'brien wrote: Didn't you > create a map of northern brun that contained lands > controlled by > different groups. Are some of these descended from > these peshwa tribes you > mention. did you ever do any write up on these > lands? if so where can they > be found? also would the nomad tribes just north of > hule be some of these > peshwahan descendants. > > No- you might be thinking of someone else (Christian > Constantin, maybe?) I think I recall the maps you're > referring to. > > I'm not sure how extensive the coverage of those > lands/maps was, but you raise a good question. I'll > have to check them out and see if I can find anymore > information. Although, come to think of it, I think > those cover mostly the further western regions (ie, > north of Hule but west of the Black Mountains) and > the region I'm suggesting would be just to the west > of Wendar/Denagoth, and east of the Black Mountains. > Still, I'll have to check out the info you are > talking about. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ============================================================ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:06:58 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > BTW, what's the darokian language in you campaigns? for me is derived from > ancient thyatian and so it should be a sort of englicized latin or latinized > english with a bit of french and spanish in it :-) (I use latin as thyatian > and italian as caurenzian only) Well, IMC Darokinian is basically Thyatian with some Antalian (or "eusdrian", if you prefer) and especially Traladaran influence. In Selenica, the Thyatian and Traladaran influence is much stronger, and the language there is basically Latin with many Greek roots, while in Darokin city and up to Corunglain there has been a strong influence from Glantrian immigrants (speaking Kaelic and Fen). BTW, IMC Kerendan is Italian (same as in Caurenze, possibly with local differences -- Caurenzan has a Tuscan accent, while Kerendan is more Roman-like), while Thyatian is (Low) Latin. In the end, it's pretty difficult to point to a specific language for Darokinian, since it looks like a mix of languages, and it seems to vary much with the region -- look at the city names: Ardelphia, Akorros, Selenica seem to be of Thyatian/Traladaran origin, while Corunglain is Corun's Glen, and Akesoli may point to a different origin. > IMC Alphatian is an aramaic/babilonian/sumerian language, while for Flaem I > don't think that Glantri was completely uninhabited when the flaem arrived, > so flaem could be a fusion of original alphatian and of a native language of > northern people like the inhabitants of Wendar, Norwold and Heldann lands... > Or Flaem could be simply a mixture of alphatian and various planar languages > that the Flaem encountered, with a bit of thyatian/heldann/northern > languages (to explain the "german-like" sound of Dutch). The land occupied by the Flaems was hardly inhabited, since it had been lost for centuries to the effects of the glantrian catastrophe. Of course, it is possible that the Flaem absorbed some native Antalian (and Lupin, BTW) communities. It is also probable that this specific group of Followers of Fire did not speak the same language as the Followers of Air that landed in Alphatia. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:57:57 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ethengars of the Northern Steppes? --- Thibault Sarlat skrev: > i like that > any pain in the "back" of my beloved HK is always > welcome, for with Vanya's blessing will will crush > them all!!! Exactly. No point in creating a setting with perfect harmony. Not when you can include a few problems for adventurers to solve! :) Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:18:26 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands IMC, Selinica (Doulakki and Traladaran), is mixed with Alasiyan to produce a dialect called Amencerian. Amencerian mixed with Kerendian is Daro, Amencerian mixed with Thyatian is Slag, and Amencerian mixed with Ispan is Caurenze. So 2 of the major trade languages have a commonality to each other, and Glantrian merchants speak or hale from Caurenze so they can trade with the Daro speaking populations. Nobody speaks Selinica or Amencerian anymore, so they are dead languages replaced by their more modern Daro, Slag and Caurenze relatives. Strangely enough, Caurenze is compatible with the Averoigne language, and is still understandable to the Ispan of the Belcadiz, but Belcadiz is not compatible to Averoigne. Making Caurenze a more popular language of choice in Glantri, as it is easier for Thyatian populations to learn than Averoigne or Flaemish (which sounds too much like Alphatian for their tastes), and Belcadiz is too dirty as a relation of Ispan (even though Caurenze is related to Ispan as well). Also, Milenian and Thantalian created Kerrendian, while Thantalian and Doulakki created Thyatian, making Kerrendian a language predating the arrival back to Brun, and Thyatian a language created after the arrival back to Brun and a newer language than Hattian or Kerrendian. ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta Date: 2004/05/14 Fri AM 09:06:58 EDT To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RW Holland/Netherlands Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > BTW, what's the darokian language in you campaigns? for me is derived from > ancient thyatian and so it should be a sort of englicized latin or latinized > english with a bit of french and spanish in it :-) (I use latin as thyatian > and italian as caurenzian only) Well, IMC Darokinian is basically Thyatian with some Antalian (or "eusdrian", if you prefer) and especially Traladaran influence. In Selenica, the Thyatian and Traladaran influence is much stronger, and the language there is basically Latin with many Greek roots, while in Darokin city and up to Corunglain there has been a strong influence from Glantrian immigrants (speaking Kaelic and Fen). BTW, IMC Kerendan is Italian (same as in Caurenze, possibly with local differences -- Caurenzan has a Tuscan accent, while Kerendan is more Roman-like), while Thyatian is (Low) Latin. In the end, it's pretty difficult to point to a specific language for Darokinian, since it looks like a mix of languages, and it seems to vary much with the region -- look at the city names: Ardelphia, Akorros, Selenica seem to be of Thyatian/Traladaran origin, while Corunglain is Corun's Glen, and Akesoli may point to a different origin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:28:40 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giampaolo Agosta" > The land occupied by the Flaems was hardly inhabited, since it had been > lost for centuries to the effects of the glantrian catastrophe. > Of course, it is possible that the Flaem absorbed some native Antalian > (and Lupin, BTW) communities. > It is also probable that this specific group of Followers of Fire did > not speak the same language as the Followers of Air that landed in Alphatia. Probably yes, but from 1700 bc (cataclism) to 400 ac (flaems arrive) it's a very very long time to leave so a great piece of land absolutely empty (we speak of 2100 years :-), while in the meantime nearby Darokin, Ethengar, Sind and Wendar live their classical era... absolutely unrealistic IMO (nothing similiar happened in real history for more than 50-100 years, even after pretty big cataclism like those of Santorini...). I think Glantri should have been inhabited, sparsely, from 1000 bc (at least) by humanoids, lupins and gnomes (mentioned in Dragonlord trilogy) first and then by northern humans, ethengarians, darokian (IMC some darokian colonists were the original inhabitants of southern Glantri before the elves and thyatians). It'only that no one was able to create a real nation before the Flaem, that were a lot more "civilized" and full of magical power... Lupins could have had a great influence over flaem and averoignian languages BTW... but in (canon) mystara do lupins have their language? Last thing, I think that Kerendian/Italian appeared only in the Almanacs and never before, AFAIK. In DotE I had the impression of Kerendian as a little english-like... then they became more italians in later products, I think... Anyway "english" language could have arrived in Cimarron and Fenswick from the west (eusdria and moorkroft) if not from Thyatis... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:06:05 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > Probably yes, but from 1700 bc (cataclism) to 400 ac (flaems arrive) it's a > very very long time to leave so a great piece of land absolutely empty (we > speak of 2100 years :-), while in the meantime nearby Darokin, Ethengar, > Sind and Wendar live their classical era... absolutely unrealistic IMO > (nothing similiar happened in real history for more than 50-100 years, even > after pretty big cataclism like those of Santorini...). Yes, but this was something like a nuclear winter, not just a caldera. It might have had quasi-magical effects (mutations) that helped keeping people away. > Lupins could have had a great influence over flaem and averoignian languages > BTW... but in (canon) mystara do lupins have their language? Yes, but it's composed of barks, so it doesn't sound similar to any human language. Lupin also have powerful voices, and can howl to keep contact across long distances. > Last thing, I think that Kerendian/Italian appeared only in the Almanacs and > never before, AFAIK. In DotE I had the impression of Kerendian as a little > english-like... then they became more italians in later products, I think... Yes, originally Kerendan was more Greek-like. In the later products, though, the Thyatian Empire was moved more towards a Latin than a Greek/Byzanthine empire. > Anyway "english" language could have arrived in Cimarron and Fenswick from > the west (eusdria and moorkroft) if not from Thyatis... In Fenswick, it probably arrived from Laterre, which is IMO the easiest solution. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:18:39 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Land of The Black Horde Okay, taking Cthuludrew's idea a bit further, here is an idea for tying the Ethengar idea with another pet project of mine. The Black Horde was originally introduced in CM7 Quest for a Tree of Life(Yes, I got my hands on it at last!), where it was described as the forces of the wizard Moorkroft. It was in part consisting of humans and in part of orcs. Now, I aways wondered where these forces came from. I made the assumption that there is a land just northeast of the Sylvan Realm, which is home of the Black Horde. While there wasnt much evidence to suggest that the Horde was anything like the Ethengars, the name Horde itself was what made the connection. Now, say that the Empire of the Great Khan is located somwhere on the northern part of central Brun, west of the Borean Valley. These are the ex-ethengars Cthulhudrew suggested in his post. In the east we have the Known World in which the Ethengars are represented by the Golden Khan, probably the best Khan of all Ethengar peoples throughout their history. To the west though, the Land of the Black Horde is ruled by the Black Khans. They broke away from the Great Khan centuries ago and allied themselves with the humanoids of Hyperborea as many orcs serve in the forces of the Black Khan. The Moorkroft-family were allies and advisors of the Black Khan and the Black Khan even let Moorkroft use his forces to establish himself his own kingdom south of those lands and aided Moorkroft I in the conquest of the Sylvan Realm. When Moorkroft (nr?) was defeated in the Sylvan Realm, the Black Khan was wise enough to stay out of those lands, at least untill he could understand his enemy better. Perhaps one day in the future, the chance of avenging his advisor Moorkroft would come. On the other hand Moorkroft was getting greedy and may have presented a threat to the Khan, so he was never that upset by his death.... What do you think? Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:46:03 -0500 From: Pat Taylor Subject: RW Normans in Italy thanks for all the help, I really like the idea of some Alphatians inviting the "younger" sons of the northmen to Easterhold. While helpful in subduing the Jennites they can soon become a thorn in the side of their lieges. I'll try to work that out some more and post it when i'm through. thanks again _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:14:47 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands The Glantrian Valley was filled in with glacial ice, when the ice receded, elves moved in and caused the second cataclysm that created the land of Black Sand in Ethengar. The glacier theory is also supported by the Ice Vale elves and the DA series, the Lost Inn ?name? was encased in ice and melted when it eventually broke free and came down in the Broken Lands. There are however some ancient statues left in the New Averoigne area, Night Howlers, and a couple of stone rings. If the ruins are human made, they would have to be Oltec, as we already have an ancient evil, Atzri Voca north west of Glantri on the Adri Varma Plateau and Aengmar in the Broken Lands. I would say Oltecs settled further west between Glantri and the Savage Coast, and others like the Azcan were in the Broken Lands and Glantri. So in ancient times, the some Azcans were able to hide on the Adri Varma and never be found by the Oltec conquerors. ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta Date: 2004/05/14 Fri AM 11:06:05 EDT To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RW Holland/Netherlands Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > Probably yes, but from 1700 bc (cataclism) to 400 ac (flaems arrive) it's a > very very long time to leave so a great piece of land absolutely empty (we > speak of 2100 years :-), while in the meantime nearby Darokin, Ethengar, > Sind and Wendar live their classical era... absolutely unrealistic IMO > (nothing similiar happened in real history for more than 50-100 years, even > after pretty big cataclism like those of Santorini...). Yes, but this was something like a nuclear winter, not just a caldera. It might have had quasi-magical effects (mutations) that helped keeping people away. > Lupins could have had a great influence over flaem and averoignian languages > BTW... but in (canon) mystara do lupins have their language? Yes, but it's composed of barks, so it doesn't sound similar to any human language. Lupin also have powerful voices, and can howl to keep contact across long distances. > Last thing, I think that Kerendian/Italian appeared only in the Almanacs and > never before, AFAIK. In DotE I had the impression of Kerendian as a little > english-like... then they became more italians in later products, I think... Yes, originally Kerendan was more Greek-like. In the later products, though, the Thyatian Empire was moved more towards a Latin than a Greek/Byzanthine empire. > Anyway "english" language could have arrived in Cimarron and Fenswick from > the west (eusdria and moorkroft) if not from Thyatis... In Fenswick, it probably arrived from Laterre, which is IMO the easiest solution. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ============================================================ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:14:49 -0300 From: Asgor Ironfist Subject: Re: RW Holland/Netherlands > From: Giampaolo Agosta > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RW Holland/Netherlands > Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:50:48 +0200 > > Asgor Ironfist wrote: > >> Could Dunwick be another possibility for an equivalent to RW >> Netherlands? > > Yes, though Dunwick is a colony rather than an "Old World" region. I think that Dunwick/Dunwijk is an trading post instead of an colony. Even the name "Free city of" suggest an stronger level of development/independance than "Colony of", for example. So, I believe that Dunwick is more like an "Old World" region instead of a colony (like most of the nations there, except for the verdan colonies, Herath, Nimmur and the "indian nations", like Shazak and Jibarú). Another interesting possibility is that the semi-independant Protectorado da Presa could be an version of the RW "Nordeste Holandês", when the dutch conquered the northestern part of Brazil (Recife and Olinda). I believe that this was the biggest dutch colony in America, managed by the West India Company (in Mystara, LB Trade Company). The only thing missing is a excuse for this conquiest... considering that Portos-Vilaverde-Texeiras left LB Trade Company outside when they reestablished their trade monopoly in Bahia de Yalu (Bay of Yalu), they already have an excuse. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail, o maior webmail do Brasil. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 May 2004 to 14 May 2004 (#2004-104) ****************************************************************