Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Oct 2004 to 18 Oct 2004 (#2004-223)
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Date: 19/10/2004, 18:00
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Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion
There are 9 messages totalling 636 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (3)
2. Tentative Belcadiz History (6)
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:28:34 -0300
From: Steven Carter <steven.f.carter@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History
Having taken up the cause of Ochalea's entry in the almanac I've
discovered that to make it all make sense a chronology of the island
nation was required. (In fact a complete timeline of Mystara was
required but I'll get to that in a later post.)
It's nearly impossible to assimilate all the published material
(especially since I don't have it all) as well as the material in the
Vaults so I'm just going to ask openly if the following points
conflict with material any of you know better than I do at this point.
<-> I need to place the origins of a Sino/Asiatic stone-to-bronze age
transitional culture partly related to the Ethengar people somewhere
on Skothar about 3500 BC. Any places I need to avoid or any localities
currently not occupied?
<-> That people I've determined should leave that area about the time
of the Rain of Fire and planetshift.
<-> Their mass migration will result in massive losses but the
survivors (still in significant numbers) should wind up making
landfall on the Ochalea island over a spread of years about 2800 BC.
<-> If there were inhabitants there I think they should be very small
numbers of Thonians and Oltec. Possibly some lizardman elements. Any
human inhabitants should be quite small in number and should be
assimilated by the newcomers. Any thoughts?
<->The period between 2700 BC when a new dynasty begins and the
Alphatian conquest will span about 2000 years and include a few
dynasties, civil wars, international wars and how the island people
deal with Nithia.
<->Sporadic contact with Taymoran Empire far to the north west after
2500 BC. Possibly a few invasion attempts which continue to sour
Ochalean sentiments against arcane magic. (To what extent were the
Taymorans sea-faring?)
<-> The great sages of Ochalean philosophy live between 1700 BC and
1400 BC. This is when the greatest classics of philosophy are written
solidifying the cultural outlook and institutionalizing the Ochalean
brand of mysticism and expression of clerical devotion.
<-> Also about 1700 BC the royal line is broken and the nation
fragments into several ethinic kingdoms based on old tribal lines.
<-> Ochalea is united again about 1350~1400 BC until the Alphatian
invasion around 750 BC.
<-> The Alphatian conquest should be around 750 BC. It should consist
of tens of thousands of mundane common Alphatians and a few hundred
noble overseers. The common Alphatians will likewise be mostly
assimilated by the native culture although the resultant gestalt will
be new and dynamic and incorporate a massive anti-arcane element.
Ochalea does not merit the importance of a kingdom. It's basically one
large work farm to Alphatia. A source of food, slaves and exotic
bric-a-brac to decorate their homes and palaces. It's a territorial
holding the "rulership" of which passes from one noble house to
another depending on who wins the imperial monopoly. The island is
divided into several prefectures, each one the responsibility of an
Alphatian house holding an imperial monopoly. The central government
of the island is in Beitung (actually it moves) and is the
responsibility of another monopoly holding house.
The decadence and corruption of the Alphatian wizard overlords helps
to completely turn the common populace against arcane magics. This
isn't about all Alphatians (nobility and royalty) being evil. Just the
majority of Alphatian ruling class in Ochalea have been corrupt,
self-serving or too self-interested to care about their subjects.
<-> Contact with Nithians is probably the final straw. Although
Ochalean culture and records will not remember them as such it is the
trade and conflict with them that cements the "no magic" element of
Ochalean culture.
<-> 600-590 BC The Thyatian/Hattian/Kerendan people, returning home
from their Alphatian-imposed Davanian expulsion/exile raid the western
coast of Ochalea. If any Alphatian wizard-lord cares they don't mount
enough of a defense.
<-> 1 AC to 20 AC - Yeras of Imperial Occupation and Rebellion
<-> 20 AC - Valentia releases Ochalea from imperial bondage but the
"gov't" of Ochalea, having already been purged by imperial
collaborators, quickly does its best to confederate with Thyatis and
soon has imperial troops stationed as peace keepers to "help suppress
the Alphatian insurgents". (This is either with or without Valentia's
knowledge - some Thyatian input here please.)
<-> Next 900 years is the story of corruption, coups, rebellion,
assassination, purges, rebirths and finally a cultural flowering and
discovery of identity.
<-> I think that other writers, in describing the history of nations
surrounding the Sea of Dawn, could include ties to Ochalea. During the
history, particularly following the two major invasions 770 BC and 1
AC, other nations would see exiles from the island nation.
<-> I suspect Ochalean bureaucracy, scholarship and architecture would
infiltrate Alphatia's "high culture". Ochalean martial practices would
infect Thyatian military and possibly some fighting orders. Ochalean
fighters would be interesting spectacle in the gladiatorial arenas and
a good way to eliminate threats to authority.
<-> The typically well educated Ochalean male would make excellent
slave stock for any household in need of a literate or skilled
servant. Teachers, book keepers, major domos, gardeners or chauffers
to abuse the stereotype. ( I have an image of a Thyatian paladin
dressed in green armour riding in a coach with an Ochalean version of
Bruce Lee as his driver always saving the Thyatian's neck )
<-> Finally does anyone know of any other inhabitants prior to 3500BC-2500BC?
Comments please.
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:32:43 +0200
From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History
Steven Carter wrote:
>
> <-> I need to place the origins of a Sino/Asiatic stone-to-bronze age
> transitional culture partly related to the Ethengar people somewhere
> on Skothar about 3500 BC. Any places I need to avoid or any localities
> currently not occupied?
Well, that's a bit of a problem, since there are Blackmoor and Thonia there at the time, as well as the Tangor Men in southern Skothar.
> <->Sporadic contact with Taymoran Empire far to the north west after
> 2500 BC. Possibly a few invasion attempts which continue to sour
> Ochalean sentiments against arcane magic. (To what extent were the
> Taymorans sea-faring?)
Limited. I'd assume coastal navigation, but little or no oceanic navigation.
> <-> Finally does anyone know of any other inhabitants prior to 3500BC-2500BC?
Note that there are Lupins and Rakasta in Ochalea, and that Ogre-Magi
where at some point in the history a major force -- slave holders, the
Ogrish Chow Chow lupins where thralls to the Ogre Magi, then were freed
with the help of Shar-Pei lupins and Foo Dogs (from Bruce Heard's
article on lupins, see also my article on lupin history for tentative
dates of Lupin colonization of Ochalea.
Also, it is quite possible that the Skotharian Rakasta passed at some
time during an westward migration.
You might want to investigate the connection between ancient
(M-austronesian) and modern (M-japanese) Rakastan languages, and the
impact of the Ochalean language on them.
In particular, I think the Rakastan presence on Ochalea was higher in
the past, but these (Ochalean-speaking) Rakasta eventually moved out to
Myoshima and/or other Rakastan regions.
Also, there's the Tagh, M-Tibetan Sherkasta from Skothar whose language
is probably the nearest relative of Ochalean.
All in all, a tough problem ;)
Bye,
--
Giampaolo Agosta
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:41:37 -0700
From: DM <dekshari@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History
agathokles wrote:
<< Nope. As we discussed over and over in the Italian
MB, there's no way the Belcadiz language can be
anything different from Spanish (and therefore Espa),
if the setting is to maintain some internal coherence
from the linguistic (and cultural) point of view.>>
I beg to differ, and the reason why I sent the theory
to the MML is precisely to hear other points of view.
;)
Anyway, you have to reckon Giampaolo that we don't
have ANYTHING fixed on the Belcadiz dialect. We don't
have a canon vocabulary, a canon list of sentences in
elvish, nothing.
We just have their NAMES and some in-character
speeches of Dona Carnelia in GAZ3, which contain some
Spanish words ("duenna", "ola", ecc.). However, we
don't know if the text is spoken in elvish to her
students or in common (Thyatian?) or in whichever
other language.
I surmise Dona Carnelia speaks in Elven common
(Belcadiz dialect) to her students and that the
Spanish (Ispan) words she slips in are regularly used
in the Belcadiz dialect.
OTOH you suppose the WHOLE Belcadiz dialect IS ISPAN,
but this would go against the formal classification of
languages in the gazetteer, since it would then be
listed as Ispan, not "Elvish (Belcadiz dialect)".
Another hypothesis (Iulius Scaevola's latest one) that
could be true is that they speak both Elvish (Belcadiz
dialect) and Thyatian (Ispan dialect), so when she
speaks in the GAZ to her pupils, Carnelia's in fact
speaking Thyatian (Ispan dialect).
But there is nothing in the canon sources which says
that the elvish of the Belcadiz clan is the same
language as Ispan.
<<If this is not a priority for you, then you have no
need at all to keep ``some characteristic Ispan
words'', and you therefore have no need to create a
complex history to explain the dealings of the
Belcadiz with the ancestors of the Espa.>>
Quite the contrary! I need the ties between Ispans and
Belcadiz because apart from possible linguistic
similarities, we do know that their cultures ARE VERY
MUCH ALIKE, so they must have interacted with one
another for many centuries (think also of the elvish
lifespan), thus blending the different civilizations
into one.
<<OTOH, if you want linguistic coherence, you may not
go with any other solution than having Belcadiz as a
dialect of Ispan, and therefore a Thyatian-descended
language (with some Ylari influence, etc.).>>
No, this is not mandatory. It is more likely (and
easier) that a culture changes rather than a language
changes when two civilizations merge or live close for
so much time.
<< Moreover, it is the Belcadiz culture which is
mostly derived from the Ispan and not the other way
round>>
there aren't proof of this. We just know the Belcadiz
are flamenco elves, and the Ispans are the Spanish
conquistadores, and that's it. You can say Ispans
influenced the Belcadiz, I can say Belcadiz had some
habits which the Ispans liked and learnt, but this is
not a major point IMO. The fact is that the outcome is
mutual and similar for both cultures. And if the
Ispans were originally Kerendans, and I say that the
Kerendans and Ylari and Elves mixed together to form
the "Ispan Culture" I easily avoid the point
altogether ^_^
<<In this case, you basically need to have the
Belcadiz and Ispan people coexist for a long time
somewhere in the oversea territories of the Empire of
Thyatis (since the Ispan are Thyatians, there's no
reason to have them elsewhere).
This long time must be between the flight of the
Belcadiz elves from Glantri in 1700 BC and the return
in 730 AC (circa), More specifically, the Thyatian
nation must be established as such, and therefore the
range is IMO restricted to 500 BC to 730 AC.>>
And this is precisely what I do in my tentative
history. However, by saying that the island is so far
away and in such perilous conditions that the
Thyatians don't find it profitable and don't colonise
it massively, I avoid one of the major problems of the
Belcadiz's history: their apparent secrecy.
We can then have Ispans and Belcadiz living together
and forming their culture during the last millennium,
with Thyatis too bothered with Alphatia in Ylaruam and
Isle of Dawn to divert precious resources to help the
Kerendan/Ispan on the isle of Alvar. This also
explains why technically inside the territories of
Thyatis, no mention is made in the official products
of the existence of Belcadiz elves until their coming
to Glantri.
<< The first journey of the Belcadiz is probably fully
underground -- like the Gentle Folk, only longer.>>
I beg to differ. It is IMO impossible to fathom an
underground trek of some 3000 miles for a group of
elves, especially considering that they must have
delved much deeper that Gentle Folk, since they must
have traveled beyond the Sea of Dread, and especially
DURING the earthquakes that created the Sunlit Sea and
swallowed Taymor.
To put it bluntly: it wouldn't have been the best time
to go that way. ;)
Anyway, I'm still open to other solutions. ^_^
DM
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:52:42 -0700
From: DM <dekshari@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:52:10 -0400, Chris
Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET> wrote:
<< So the Belcadeil being descendants of the Glantrian
elves and interbred with the Meditor live closer to
the Doulakki and befriend them.>>
Just a quick note to tell you that I don't use
Doulakki because they are IMHO redundant (we already
have Traldars to fill that niche) and in contrast with
canon material (which has Toralai tribes in the
Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of Thyatians and
Kerendans in 600 BC). ;)
And btw, the Meditors (the pale elves!) were ALREADY
trapped on the isles of Minrothad at the beginning of
BC 1700. Do you suggest the Belcadiz were there too or
that they remained in the Dymrak Woods (near
Kerendas)?
<< Later on when Thyatians arrive, they befriend the
Kerrendians that get influenced by the Alasani culture
that develops into the Espa. This makes the Belcadiz
language different than a dialect of Espa, as it has
retained some grammar from the Doulakki. >>
I fail to understand how Kerendans that live near the
Belcadiz (as I think you've placed them in Vyalia
region) can be influenced by Alasyians who OTOH live
far away from here... It's like saying that people
living in Texas have been influenced by those living
in Washington state or in Michigan... :p
<<They don’t get a ToL, as they split from Ilsundal
many years ago and still don’t accept him now that he
is an immortal, and the Meditor faction abandon
Calitha as they blame her for the plague “Is Starbrow
not stronger than a mortal elf that curses
us?†Having no patron, they develop into godless
wizards and liars (as the Orc Wars describes Glantrian
Mages).>>
??? BIG UH???
Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two
of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and
Dona Blanca), and Meditors DO WORSHIP CALITHA (it's
official, check GAZ9 as well)!
DM
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:03:46 +0200
From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History
DM wrote:
> We just have their NAMES and some in-character speeches of Dona
> Carnelia in GAZ3, which contain some Spanish words ("duenna",
> "ola", ecc.).
No, we also have some text in the adventure section. Of course, no text
will ever be in something different from english.
By this measure, you might infer that everyone on Mystara speaks
english, they just have odd names.
> OTOH you suppose the WHOLE Belcadiz dialect IS ISPAN, but this would
> go against the formal classification of languages in the
> gazetteer, since it would then be listed as Ispan, not "Elvish
> (Belcadiz dialect)".
Not necessarily, since in the Gazetteer there is no Ispan to speak of.
> But there is nothing in the canon sources which says that the elvish
> of the Belcadiz clan is the same language as Ispan.
Except the fact that they use the same words. Since the language spoken
by the Belcadiz cannot be english, we must extend what little we have of
their language (and we never ever get an ``elvish'' word!), therefore I
still hold to the position that their language must be M-Spanish.
> Quite the contrary! I need the ties between Ispans and Belcadiz
> because apart from possible linguistic similarities, we do know
> that their cultures ARE VERY MUCH ALIKE,
Not really, the Ispan are very religious while the Belcadiz are
basically atheistic.
Other than being quite aggressive and vengeful, there's nothing to link
the Ispan and Belcadiz if you assume that the Belcadiz names are elvish.
> No, this is not mandatory. It is more likely (and easier) that a
> culture changes rather than a language changes when two
> civilizations merge or live close for so much time.
Actually, it is often the opposite.
> there aren't proof of this. We just know the Belcadiz are flamenco
> elves, and the Ispans are the Spanish conquistadores, and that's
> it.
Yes there are, if you value language coherence: Espa/Belcadiz is a
``Neo-Thyatian'' language, therefore it cannot come from the Elves.
The Belcadiz is different from Alfheimer elvish, so it must have changed
at some point. Since this change goes in the direction of Thyatian, it
must have come from interaction with Thyatians.
Assuming that this change simply happens by miracle, or that an entire
people changes their naming conventions to adopt that of another people
without also adopting their language and without leaving traces of the
previous naming system (note that naming conventions are among the
"persistent" features of language) is not what I would consider reasonable.
> This also explains why technically inside the territories of Thyatis,
> no mention is made in the official products of the existence of
> Belcadiz elves until their coming to Glantri.
It also ignores the fact that the Ispan are said to be part of the
Thyatian Empire, and nothing tells us things have ever been different.
> I beg to differ. It is IMO impossible to fathom an underground trek
> of some 3000 miles for a group of elves, especially considering
> that they must have delved much deeper that Gentle Folk, since they
> must have traveled beyond the Sea of Dread, and especially DURING
> the earthquakes that created the Sunlit Sea and swallowed Taymor.
Ah, yes, Shattenalfen anyone?
> To put it bluntly: it wouldn't have been the best time to go that
> way. ;)
Not if you go deep enough.
Bye,
--
Giampaolo Agosta
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:11:58 +0200
From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History
DM wrote:
>
> Just a quick note to tell you that I don't use
> Doulakki because they are IMHO redundant (we already
> have Traldars to fill that niche) and in contrast with
> canon material (which has Toralai tribes in the
> Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of Thyatians and
> Kerendans in 600 BC). ;)
Just to report both sides of the discussion, OTOH I do use the Doulakki because they're not really redundant if do not accept that Kerendans are a clone of the Milenians.
In short, someone must found Cynidicea, and since Cynidicea is IMO not Byzantine, but at most hellenistic, it cannot be the Kerendans.
Since the Traldars are no more by the time Cynidicea is founded, there must be some other M-greek nation (in the Biazzan region, most likely).
BTW, I would consider the Toralai tribes not really acceptable as such, since the Neathar culture must have evolved in the millennia between their decline (when the tribes where moved to the HW) and 500 BC.
> ??? BIG UH???
> Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two
> of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and
> Dona Blanca),
Which is another very odd thing, since they do not worship Ilsundal and cannot have Treekeepers, according to GAZ7.
Bye,
--
Giampaolo Agosta
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:34:24 -0400
From: Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History
I quickly just emailed an excerpt of the complete timeline, which can be found at http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/elvntime.html
I would love for your input as well on that project.
<< Just a quick note to tell you that I don't use
Doulakki because they are IMHO redundant (we already
have Traldars to fill that niche) and in contrast with
canon material (which has Toralai tribes in the
Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of Thyatians and
Kerendans in 600 BC). ;)
And btw, the Meditors (the pale elves!) were ALREADY
trapped on the isles of Minrothad at the beginning of
BC 1700. Do you suggest the Belcadiz were there too or
that they remained in the Dymrak Woods (near
Kerendas)? >>
Understandable for the use of a non-canon culture. I believe these little holes can be plugged in by anyone’s own culture. I wanted to lead into some cultural similarities of pre-Greek, Greek, and Kerendian being the Greek influenced Thyatian tribe.
<< I fail to understand how Kerendans that live near the
Belcadiz (as I think you've placed them in Vyalia
region) can be influenced by Alasyians who OTOH live
far away from here... It's like saying that people
living in Texas have been influenced by those living
in Washington state or in Michigan... :p >>
The tribes that would become the Vyalia, in my timeline, were separatists from Verdier and Meditor that had stayed with Ilsundal. Now if a new group of elves, like the Belcadeil, arrives, they would have been pushed further west or east. East would put them in direct contact with the Alasyian culture. I used this piece because I like Mishler’s work of the Ispan history, but I did not like the explanation he made of the Belcadiz. Having a group of elves that have been pushed out of one area and having to subsist on dealing with humans (Toralai, Doulakki, or <insert DM preference here>), would seem like a better reason to drop any elven heritage and adopt a new one that is called Flamenco.
<< ??? BIG UH???
Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two
of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and
Dona Blanca), and Meditors DO WORSHIP CALITHA (it's
official, check GAZ9 as well)! >>
I will recheck the Belcadiz having a Tree of Life in Glantri. And yes I know that Meditors do worship Calitha. But the Meditors that stayed on the mainland didn’t, and they with the other Verdier and some Belcadeil, would all have to find their own way. Some became the Vyalia, which splintered again as well when Mealiden arrived with a new religion (Ilsundal and the Tree of Life), others survived by living in close proximity with humans.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:00:33 -0400
From: Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History
============================================================
From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
> ??? BIG UH???
> Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two
> of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and
> Dona Blanca),
Which is another very odd thing, since they do not worship Ilsundal and cannot have Treekeepers, according to GAZ7.
============================================================
Makes your wonder if the Belcadiz were able to find one of Ordana's original trees in their travels? I agree this does not make much sense to have an elven culture so alien to themselves to even worship nature in any guise. Who would give the Flamenco's a TOL? It would have to be a cutting from one of Mealiden's that was gifted to the Vyalia.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:45:29 -0700
From: Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History
--- Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Note that there are Lupins and Rakasta in Ochalea,
> and that Ogre-Magi where at some point in the
history > a major force -- slave holders, the
> Ogrish Chow Chow lupins where thralls to the Ogre
> Magi, then were freed with the help of Shar-Pei
> lupins and Foo Dogs (from Bruce Heard's article on
> lupins, see also my article on lupin history for
> tentative dates of Lupin colonization of Ochalea.
Don't recall if I ever posted an updated version of my
"Pateran Timeline" or not, but I revised it subsequent
to my original post, and included an era of time in
Ochalean history when the rakasta took over Ochalea
and instituted several changes to the political and
social climate. Basically, the way I had it, Ochalea
was first more "japanese" in structure/culture (like
Myoshima), then later "chinese".
The Alphatian presence in Ochalea was directly related
to the rakasta presence there, as the Alphatians came
to the land under the guise of assisting the
liberation of the Ochalean people, then (after they
helped rid Ochalea of rakasta, largely) began to
populate the island with their own people, and helped
to relocate much of the native Ochalean populace.
Again, though, this is just my version, and not based
on anything canonical.
> In particular, I think the Rakastan presence on
> Ochalea was higher in the past, but these
> (Ochalean-speaking) Rakasta eventually moved out to
> Myoshima and/or other Rakastan regions.
Yeah- that was what my version assumed as well. In
particular, Myoshima was a colony of Ochalea (and
there might be others on Mystara proper), which was
the most notable surviving remnant of the
rakasta-dominated island nation (and retains the
Japanese-esque culture of the time period in which the
nation formed).
I think I had the timeline of rakasta domination c.
800-500 BC or thereabouts. Possibly as far back as
1000 BC, though.
------------------------------
End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Oct 2004 to 18 Oct 2004 (#2004-223)
****************************************************************