Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Nov 2004 to 11 Nov 2004 (#2004-245) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 12/11/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 228 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Vanya (2) 2. Glantri circa 493 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:24:38 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Vanya This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-342241519-1100166401=:11153 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: Thanks for the help. As I mentioned, I got the notion that Vanya wasn't "The" Immortal in Thyatis from Giulio's article "The Official Thyatian Religion" in the Vaults. But of course that is just one more possible view on the Thyatian "Church", albeit a very well written one. There was also the one about Mithraite cult in Thyatis, but that is of course an even more intentional rewrite of Thyatian culture. But I got the notion of Vanya's dwindling influence from the 3E Immortal Pantheon in the Vaults, which states: "and at one time her cult was quite large throughout the massive Thyatian Empire and especially amongst its militant Heldannic Knights. Of late, it has lost significant influence and can only be considered as a minor cult." I guess there has been some significant rewriting in this case also? Yes, now that I think about it, Vanya was portrayed as the main figure in Thyatian pantheon in the DotE boxed set. Things have changed a lot after that, though. The Immortal scene has been developed a lot after that, and for example the figure of Ixion has to be considered. If I remember correctly, he wasn't yet in the DotE? --- I agree that of course the Church of Thyatis would have many outposts in other countries, especially Darokin where many people of Thyatian blood have emigrated. (One of them would serve very well as the point of origin for the PC cleric IMC.) But I was talking about the official pantheons of other "national Churches". So even though worship of Vanya is certainly tolerated in Darokin, it would not be included in the official pantheon. (I'm working under the assumption that religious life in Darokin consists of: 1) temples of the official Church, 2) temples of the cults of individual deities and 3) temples of other national churches and other sects) --- The idea that the whole Order of Griffon is built on the cult of Vanya is intiguing: the politics of Karameikan church would revolve around different interpretations of the deity, emphasis on different aspects of her being. Halaran would emphasise "Law and Order", the attitude of the invader who wants to stabilise the realm. His daughter, the Griffin Knight Aleena, would emphasise Vanya's "chivalric" aspects of fighting the good fight and standing firm in the face of adversity. Olliver Jowett would possibly wish to fade Vanya to the background of the Pantheon, emphasising other deities, or just emphasising the orderly aspect of Vanya. Oderbry would be firmly on the conquest aspect, possibly against the notion if integrating the Traladara-based icon of Halav into the Church (the Traladaran Three are worshipped in Thyatis, but I'd think that they have been rewritten as deities who just helped the Traldar in their distress - as opposed to Traladaran heroes). Kelven has always sounded like an unreligious character. He is a follower of the church, but in a politican kind of way. He'll follow the interpretation that suits him. --- The notion about Thanatos influencing the whole cult of Vanya is a double-edged sword. On the other hand, it makes the idea of Thanatos having an avatar in the middle of Hattias a bit more plausible. It was always a bit thin. And some aspects of the HK are also explained by it. BUT: it also seems to involve the idea that without the influence of Thanatos the cult of Vanya would have been nicer and less belligerent. That is moving towards the good-evil -axis tha never fit Mystara well. Vanya is the patron of War and Conquest, the patron not only of establishing empires but also of subjugating other people and acts of retribution against rebellions. In my opinion, Vanyaites don't need Thanatos to lead towards racial hatred, supremacist thinking and unwarranted invasions. That in one possible interpretation of their deity's aspects. Look at the Thyatian history! And this is just what makes Vanya an intriguing Immortal, a source of atmosphere for the gaming world. (As we ARE talking about gaming worlds, dramatic effect and story interest are important, more important after all than consistency of history and that stuff...) The figure of Vanya is possibly closest to emulating some aspects of RW religion - the different interpretations given to the "same" creed, the scisms resulting from that etc. Often in fantasy worlds the relationship between the deity itself and the beliefs of the worshippers is too straight and onedimensional. --- Oops! A question before I forget it: I've been reading a lot about canon Immortals in the last few weeks. I always thought that Cretia and Loki were the same Immortal. I have a vague feeling that I even read such a suggestion somewere. But now I couldn't find it anywhere, they are frimly stated to be different deities in WotI Codex for example. Did I just dream this up? The idea would be nice, though, given that the NR Antalians and the Ethengarians have been neighbours for a long long time. Loki manifesting as two mischievous deities - sounds just like him... ******************************************************* Ville Lähde University of Tampere Department of Mathematics, Statistics and Philosophy 33014 Tampere, Finland phone: (work) 03 215 7573 (home) 040 7776772 email: Ville.V.Lahde@uta.fi http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/mattiet/filosofia/lahde.htm ******************************************************* ---559023410-342241519-1100166401=:11153-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:45:14 -0500 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: Vanya Hello, In my campaign, I had Vanya actively working to keep things a wee bit chaotic in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos. Basically, she did not want the Duchy to be unified. If it was, then it would be in a position where it could influence the outcome of the Wrath of the Immortals. If it did, she wanted to make certain that the Duchy would support the Thyatians. In opposition to Vanya's efforts, I had Petra working to unify the lands. Basically, the big three of Traldar were opposed to the efforts of Rad and the Circle of Fire. In the end, Vanya's efforts were thwarted and the Grand Duchy of Karameikos became the Kingdom of Karameikos. This newly named Kingdom then allied itself with Alphatia against the Empire of Thyatis. Of course, you knew this last bit. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler > --- > The idea that the whole Order of Griffon is built on the cult of Vanya is > intiguing: the politics of Karameikan church would revolve around > different interpretations of the deity, emphasis on different aspects of > her being. Halaran would emphasise "Law and Order", the attitude of the > invader who wants to stabilise the realm. His daughter, the Griffin Knight > Aleena, would emphasise Vanya's "chivalric" aspects of fighting the good > fight and standing firm in the face of adversity. > > Olliver Jowett would possibly wish to fade Vanya to the background of the > Pantheon, emphasising other deities, or just emphasising the orderly > aspect of Vanya. Oderbry would be firmly on the conquest aspect, possibly > against the notion if integrating the Traladara-based icon of Halav into > the Church (the Traladaran Three are worshipped in Thyatis, but I'd think > that they have been rewritten as deities who just helped the Traldar in > their distress - as opposed to Traladaran heroes). > Kelven has always sounded like an unreligious character. He is a follower > of the church, but in a politican kind of way. He'll follow the > interpretation that suits him. > --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:19:55 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Glantri circa 493 On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:38:51 -0800, DM wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:35:55 -0500, Chris Cherrington > wrote: > >> I found this reference for the Dragon Lord >> Trilogy... >> >> 491 AC Thelvyn Foxeyes find the armour of Dragonlord >> from Blackmoorian fortress of Dragonwatch. He >> becomes the second Dragonlord of Mystara. >> 496 AC Thelvyn Foxeyes realises, that he is a gold >> dragon conjured to a form of eldar-elf. Magic is >> broken after the trip to the homeplane of Great One. >> Time of Dragonlord is over. Thelvyn becomes a >> Dragonking. >> Leader of the Flaemish firewizards Byean Kaalstran >> finds an "efficient" way to use Radiance. >> 497 AC Gemstone dragons return to Mystara. They >> threaten the dragons of Mystara with war, but >> Thelvyn defeats them. He becomes Immortal Diamond. > > > Holy cow, I didn't know about this origin for Diamond > and about the gemstone-metallic dragons war!! :o > > Can you please make a summary of the events in the > Dragonlord chronicles for me and all of the people who > haven't read the trilogy, Chris (or whoever has gotten > around reading the books)? That would help a lot ;) > You pretty much got the major spoilers in what Chris has written, though there are certainly more details. A major point is an orb or other such powerful magical item stolen from the kingdom of dragons, and which is the cause for their initial though limited attacks on Glantri in the first novel. There are also several references to the dragons repelling Alphatian attacks against their lands in Norwold at the time. Some of the protagonists have interesting backgrounds, though I remember getting annoyed that every single major character was curiously an important member of some royal family in secret or some such. I could accept it for one or maybe two, but for almost all of them it strained credibility a lot. For example, Solveig Whitegold grew up with the imperial family of Thyatis, while the dwarf, Korinn Bearslayer (sp?), is actually a son of the king of Rockhome. And Thelvyn's master/mentor, Sir Kirbey, is actually a drake (dragon-like creature) posing as an aging human. Some of the details are interesting, however. Personally I've been considering using the references to "Knights of the Road" (if that's what they called them) to set up knights or similar in Darokin - they're sorely missing. But since I only have the second novel (Dragonking of Mystara), it's sort of a dead project, although I have read the entire trilogy. - The Stalker ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Nov 2004 to 11 Nov 2004 (#2004-245) ****************************************************************