Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 30 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2005 (#2005-26) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 01/02/2005, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 738 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Shadow elf history problems (4) 2. Greetings from an old friend (4) 3. Rakastas in Races of the Wild? (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:28:16 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Shadow elf history problems I'm not touching the Belcadiz issue, but I'd like to comment on something that Andrew wrote during the discussion. I'm sure that this issue has been munched over many times on the list, but repetition is sometimes good: "These [1700 BC "Glantri elves" - Ville] couldn't have been the shadow elf clans, as (from Gaz13) we know the SE clans have *already* been driven underground due to the cataclysm. These elves, then, were the second inhabitants of Glantri." (Note: according to GAZ 13 the pre-Shadow Elves were living near Blackmoor when driven underground. So they never lived in modern Glantri...Or Andrew: did you refer to the 2200 BC elven group in "Glantri"?) The whole issue of Shadow Elf history is problematic, because there are contradictory notions in various Mystaran products. These have made their way even into the wonderful compiled timelines, as ideas from GAZ 5, HW set, GAZ 10 and Gaz13 etc. are being used indiscriminately. (I don't have the opportunity to dig out the exact source right now, but I can do it later if necessary.) For example, there's the issue of Atzanteotl, who according to the HW timeline is supposed to have lured some Outer World (or should we say Middle/Crust World?) Shadow Elves away from the worship of Rafiel. I mean, this is hundreds of years before Rafiel contacted these elves, and before thay started calling themselves shadow elves! (See for example Daniel Boese's excellent timeline, 1500 BC, info from HW) Also, the Shattenalfen and the Shadow elves (see also below) seem to get confused in some parts of the timelines. Another thing which is contradictory is Aengmor. According to some sources it was built by elves "in ancient times", possibly under the influence of Atzanteotl. Actually the times couldn't have been that ancient, since Atzanteotl hadn't been around that long... But anyway, these elves are supposed to be part of the 17000 BC "Glantrian" survivors. If the Shadow Elves descend from the clans of Blackmoor age, they can't be the builders of the city (anyhow, them "finding" the place wouldn't make much sense). The story of the elven origins of Aengmor runs into trouble, however, if we wish to hold on to the notion of the Ascans that the pre-shadow elves drove away from there. (If I remember correctly, according to the Thar GAZ these elves built the city, and Shadow Elves GAZ introduced the idea of the Ascan origins - but still hinted at some more ancient elven origins. Elements of both made their way into the HW timeline.) So some texts seem to indicate that it was an Azcan city built under the influence of Atzanteotl. Go figure. So what we are up to again is the problem of inconsistencies in writing Mystaran history. In trying to understand Shadow Elf history for my campaign I tried to make heads or tails of the issue. Here's a candidate for the sequence of events, albeit a rough one. 1) 3000 BC Elven clans that had migrated near Blackmoor barely survive the blast and are driven underground. They will spend the next 1600 or so years in virtual isolation, during which time their characteristic racial features develop (which is of course too short a time if one sticks to RW evolutionary mechanisms). 2) Around 1700 BC the Highlands("Glantri") disaster drives some elven survivors underground. Some end up elsewhere in Outer World, others in HW. PERHAPS some stay in the underground tunnels (see below) - In HW (1500 BC?) Atzanteotl gains Immortality due to his actions within Azcan communities. 3) Construction of original Aengmor temple (time unknown) This is done either by Atzanteotl-led Azcan humans OR some group of elves from the 1700 migration. NOTE: The pre-Shadow Elves must still be traveling towards this area, still without the guidance of Rafiel (or at least they are not aware of it). The human origins seem more plausible, as they are also tied to the story of Atruaghin. (I just mentioned the elven possibility, since it is hinted at in many places.) Then again, the elven origins would explain the idea of an Atzanteotl-worshipping elven group from the 1700 BC migratien, the predecessors of the Shattenalfen, without the problems mentioned below. In any case, Azcans will settle the area around the temple before 1420 BC 4) Around 1400 the pre-Shadow Elves find the temple and build the whole city of Aengmor around it. It is only during this time that they fall under the influence of Atzanteotl. The Azcans are driven out. Now here's where to versions of the timeline get confused. The HW Shattenaflen who derive from the 1700 disaster, and the 3000 BC-started migration of the pre-Shadow elves seem both to have been written as the conquerors of the original Aengmor (Mictlan?). Or else, the timelines would hint ayt some stange intermingling, which isn't supported my any narrative text I have found. Andrew wrote: "Which means the second group of Glantrian elves were the Truedyl (who do, indeed, emerge far to the south, in the Shires), the Icevale (who pop up again in the Hollow World), the Schattenalfen (who mix in with the shadow elves and become Eeeeevil!), and a clan whose only survivor is Atziann. " Where are the refenrence to this mixing of the two groups? I mean, pre-Shawod Elves and the Shattenaflen? In my mind it doesn't fit the story of the Shadow Elves. A meeting with another group of elves would seriously mess up the GAZ 13 timeline and the ambience of loneliness and isolation of that people. NOTE: Compare this with stuff in Daniel Boease's timeline during 1420: it seems to suggest that the HW Shattenalfen derive from a group of Aengmorian elves who stumble upon the Hollow World. That is, they derive from the clans who escaped the doom of Blackmoor around 3000 BC, not from some other group that the SE meet. But this conflicts severely with previous stuff in the Timeline - that the Shattenaflen derive from the 1700 BC exodus. This contradiction is of course related to the fact that the origins of the Outer World Shadow Elves have been written twice. 5) In any case, the pre-Shadow Elves are driven away from Aengmor and in 1104 they discover Rafiel's Way. It is only now that they become conscious of their guardian. And perhaps Rafiel only now becomes conscious of them. I hope this makes sense. But in condensed form, I think the most unproblematic timeline would be: 1) pre-SE driven undersground in 3000 BC 2) Vulcanian emigrees arrive in "Glantri" in 2200 BC (possibly with two groups who never meet each other?) 3) "Glantrian" disaster 1700 BC, the elve in the area driven underground 4) Atzanteotl gains Immortality 5) Atzanteotl influences a group of the 1700 BC emigrees who become the Shattenalfen (that is: they are completely distinct from the Shadow Elves, who after all are a very different culture!). The Shattenalfen understandably get a very Azcan outlook. - The Shattenaflen later on arrive in Hollow World. 6) Construction of Mictlan/pre-Aengmor by Azcans or the Azcan-like elves. (The latter alternative leaves a problem: how did they come to leave the city?) 7) pre-SE conquer the temple and build Aengmor under Atzanteotl's guidance 8) pre-SE driven out of Aengmor, find Refuge of Stone. There. Then another matter: I just read through WotI really good for the first time. I just have to say that the product misses an important facet in the SE culture - the rift between SE expansionism and the Way of Rafiel. Originally Rafiel was written as a deity who couldn't care less about SE invasions. In fact, considering his project of building a stable NoS, he should be against abandoning the underground realms! In GAZ 13 one of the most fruitful ideas is the rift between King Telemon and the leading Shamans. In WotI it is forgotten, and Rafiel just pushes the whole SE culture into invading Alfheim. I understand that it was a sacrifice that the writers made for the Immortal intrigue -timeline. But it still makes the SE much more straightforwardly "evil" than they used to be. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:37:48 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Shadow elf history problems --- Ville V Lähde wrote: > (Note: according to GAZ 13 the pre-Shadow Elves were > living near Blackmoor when driven underground. So > they never lived in modern Glantri...Or Andrew: did > you refer to the 2200 BC elven group in "Glantri"?) This harkens back to the whole "where is Blackmoor?" debate, on which canon is inconsistent. Gaz13's timeline (among other places) mentions that "Survivors of the elven colony in Blackmoor flee into the newly-formed Broken Lands and below the surface." p.5 says of them, "...some elves... travelled north and colonized what is now Glantri... The elves in Glantri fled to what is today the Broken Lands." Now, later canon moved Blackmoor to Skothar, which made the whole "elven colonies near Blackmoor" bit inconsistent with the idea of shadow elves/elvish colonies in Glantri. I went with the original intent, which was that the shadow elves lived in/around Glantri prior to the Great Rain of Fire. So, in essence, they were the first group to live in Glantri. The alternative is that the shadow elves actually lived on Skothar originally (near Blackmoor) and were driven underground there, and somehow popped up in the Broken Lands millions of miles away. That seems really... messy... to me. > The whole issue of Shadow Elf history is > problematic, because there are > contradictory notions in various Mystaran products. Yep. See above. :) > For example, there's the issue of Atzanteotl, who > according to the HW timeline is supposed to have > lured some Outer World (or should we say Middle/Crust > World?) Shadow Elves away from the worship of Rafiel. > I mean, this is hundreds of years before Rafiel > contacted these elves, and before thay started > calling themselves shadow elves! Oy. Atzanteotl is a major issue. Gaz13 has the city of Aengmor discovered by shadow elves in 1420 BC, already dedicated to Atzanteotl. However, Atzanteotl (according to the HW Schattenalfen entry), is supposed to have been a survivor of the 1700 BC explosion, and isn't supposed to have attained immortality until c.1300 BC (p. 83- "Atziann, another survivor of the Glantrian explosion of four hundred years before, was attaining Immortality.) At that point, he supposedly lures the Schattenalfen to build Aengmor (with another group going into the Hollow World.) Confused yet? To add to the trouble, the Atzanteotl entry from the HW DM's guide says he was a mortal elf 3,700 years ago- making the explosion that drove him underground in 2,700 BC, not 1,700 BC! Wha...? HWR1: Sons of Azca tries to make sense of this- BC 1,700: Elves in Glantri discover... a Blackmoor device... minor cataclysm. The survivors hide in the caves beneath Glantri... ancestors of the Hollow World's Gentle Folk, Icevale Elves, and the... Schattenalfen. A fourth group, led by an elf named Atziann, had no survivors save that king. BC 1,650: Atziann... emerges in the Hollow World near Chitlacan. Fascinated by the Azcans, he spends several years among them... BC 1,500: The elf, Atziann, achieves Immortality... He begins whispering to selected subterranean elves and Azcan rulers... BC 1,468: Atruatzin and his followers find a resting place, where they build a temple to the old gods. They name it Mictlan... (this is to become Aengmor) BC 1,420: The underground elven wanderers stumble upon Mictlan... those elves who have been seduced by Atzanteotl declare that the temple is sacred to him. After that, a volcanic eruption in 1,290 drives the elves out of Aengmor. They split into two groups, seemingly, the original Blackmoor elves (our shadow elves)- who discover Rafiel a century later, and the second group (the Schattenalfen) who go further underground and into the Hollow World. Frankly, the Hollow World info seems to be the least accurate to "history", which is odd, considering that it is the primary source of info on the Schattenalfen. Sloppy. > (If I remember correctly, according to the > Thar GAZ these elves built the city, and Shadow > Elves GAZ introduced the idea of the Ascan origins - > but still hinted at some more ancient elven > origins. Elements of both made their way into the HW > timeline.) There was a temple there (Mictlan) with (presumably) some living spaces of some sort. It was the elves (under Atzanteotl's influence) that build the city around the temple, in Azcan fashion. > Where are the refenrence to this mixing of the two > groups? I mean, pre-Shawod Elves and the > Shattenaflen? This comes directly from the Schattenalfen history in the Hollow World DM's book. "... some of those survivors discovered the cavern of the City of Stars. "Adopted by the Shadow Elves... these adopted Shadow Elves took the clan name schattenalfen... and they were the ancestors of the Hollow World Schattenalfen." Now, obviously, the history as presented has problems. Notably (as you point out) the shadow elves weren't calling themselves shadow elves yet, nor were they living in the City of Stars. One suggestion might be that these new arrivals took to calling themselves schattenalfen (due to the circumstances of their new home- living in the shadowy caverns below the surface)- this could have happened independently of the shadow elves later calling themselves shadow elves... although it seems unlikely. > In my mind it doesn't fit the story of the Shadow > Elves. A meeting with another group of elves would > seriously mess up the GAZ 13 timeline and the > ambience of loneliness and isolation of that > people. I can see that, and agree. The oddest part is that it comes from the HW book, and Gaz13 (which came out shortly before) was designed as a "companion" piece to the HW boxed set- look at all the references to it. You'd think they'd have coordinated them a bit better as a result, but... *shrug* > NOTE: Compare this with stuff in Daniel Boease's > timeline during 1420: it seems to suggest that the HW > Shattenalfen derive from a group of Aengmorian elves > who stumble upon the Hollow World. I think you need to look at that entry in context with the rest of the Shadowelf/Schattenalf info- with all the entries in the massive timeline, I think some of the detail gets confused (not to mention just general confusion of the truncated timeline entries as opposed to detailed text history from sources.) According to the HW DM's guide, the Schattenalfen were split by Atzanteotl into two groups initially- one which colonized the HW, and one which colonized Mictlan (building Aengmor- along with the Shadowelves). The 1420 elves must be the splinter group that go to the HW, as Aengmor/Mictlan wasn't even discovered until 1420 (so they could hardly have been kicked out). Either they left prior to discovering Mictlan, or shortly after per Atzanteotl's decree. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:26:26 -0800 From: DM Subject: Re: Greetings from an old friend ON Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:40:37 +0900, Thorfinn Tait wrote: <> WOW! Hey, this is the kinda things that really force me to forfeit my "lurking" mode for a while to get back on the MML traffic! WELCOME BACK THORF! Gee, Khoronus knows how many times I tried to contact you via MSN Messenger or via e-mail at curufin.velvia.co.uk, but alas it seemed you had vanished in the Mists of Ravenloft! ;) I'm glad to see you're okay and back on track, so to speak :) << I have so many questions and things to talk about with you guys, built up over the last five or six years. But I'm getting ahead of myself...>> Hey, we're here to listen and to answer (if we can)! IIRC our last letter dates around 4 years ago... <> This guy really rocks folk! He's the Real White Ninja of Legend ! :) ^_^ (for those who catch it) *Everybody was kung-fu fighting...tadada dada dada!* <> DoubleWOW! Well, I seriously wish you all the best for your real life Thorf, that's the important thing! I've just married after one year living together with my fiancée and came back from one-week honeymoon in Yucatàn (Mexico)... and I can't see the time to travel somewhere else again (maybe Nihon!) :) << Can anyone fill me in on who is still around?>> Me for sure ^_^, although lurking here and on the MMB, mostly writing for Mystara in Italian nowadays. Daniel Boese has long since disappeared as well as Estlor, Jennifer Favia Guerra and Fabrizio "Brizio" Paoli (he's an areonautic engineer working all around Europe now, and when he's got time he helps organizing the most important Gaming Con in his home town), while Leroy van Camp left the MML to manage only the Spelljammer list. Matthew Levy is likewise gone from a long time and I don't know where, while last year (or was it 2003?) James "First Thyatian Citizen" Ruhland left the community after some quarrelling with those pesky Alphatian troublemakers IIRC. Also, Bruce Heard vanished from the gaming community after giving us his last heritage: the XML spreadsheet for dominion handling :) All the other Auldies are still pretty much here: Hervé le Fay, Andrew "Spawn of Cthulhu", Geoff the new List Ogre, Aaron the Merman and Alex the Alphatian. I think you may also remember Thibault the Cartographer, right there in the corner scribbling, Ohad the Shady lurking in the shadows and GP Agosta aka Agathokles the Uncanny. <> It's great to have you back! Hope to read your secret project soon. IN the meantime, I'll go on reading your Chronology :) Konnichiwa! Marco "DM" Dalmonte __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:18:24 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Shadow elf history problems Thanks for the speedy reply, Andrew. Yup, I've noticed the inconsistencies about the location of Blackmoor. But is it a clear-cut early-later-version situation? In my copy of GAZ 10 (Orcs of Thar) the migration map puts Blackmoor firmly on Brun. Some earlier GAZ:n mention that Blackmoor was moved to the north pole. And the same north pole -version in products after GAZ 10. (Plus the Skothar alternative). Seems like a wholesale mess. I've always kept with the north pole version, so the elven colonies could have been for example in present-day Borean delta. They didn't have to be exactly the close neighbours of Blackmoor, just in practical trading distance. But yeah, having them travel to BL from Skothar would be really really messy. One thing why I like having the SE derive from Blackmoor era and not the 1700 BC disaster is that they would have needed a LONG time underground to even start changing racially. Also, their culture gains the dimension of long isolation, that 1700 BC --> 1104 BC just doesn't get. Elven live so bloody long that one person could remember this whole era. 4000 years is still too little for racial development, but better than 2700. I never liked the "it's magic" strategy of explanation - without a good narrative, that is! But that is a matter of taste. The Glantrian alternative does have a lot of merits. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:39:19 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Rakastas in Races of the Wild? Hello all! Has anyone else noticed the "news" section in Wizards website? At the bottom of the page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20050131news) there seem to be a saying about "Catfolk" It appears that "Races of the Wild" has some E3.5 info on a Rakasta-like creature... Has anyone some insiders info? Or is it common knowledge that there are "catfolk" in the new D&D? Curious as a cat Ohad "Morphail" Shaham P.S Hey Marco, long time. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:25:51 -0000 From: Jon Cole Subject: Re: Rakastas in Races of the Wild? The Minatures Handbook p56 has Catfolk in it, although they dont seem too similar to Rakastas :-) Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 5:39 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Rakastas in Races of the Wild? > Hello all! > > Has anyone else noticed the "news" section in Wizards > website? > At the bottom of the page > (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20050131news) > there seem to be a saying about "Catfolk" > It appears that "Races of the Wild" has some E3.5 info > on a Rakasta-like creature... > Has anyone some insiders info? Or is it common > knowledge that there are "catfolk" in the new D&D? > > Curious as a cat > Ohad "Morphail" Shaham > > P.S Hey Marco, long time. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:56:00 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Greetings from an old friend DM ha scritto: > > Also, Bruce Heard vanished from the gaming community > after giving us his last heritage: the XML spreadsheet > for dominion handling :) He popped up briefly last year, on the MMB. GP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:31:44 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Shadow elf history problems --- Ville V Lähde wrote: > Thanks for the speedy reply, Andrew. I was up late, and had all my books handy (been working on some projects again). Glad I could participate. :) > Yup, I've noticed the inconsistencies about the > location of Blackmoor. But is it a clear-cut > early-later-version situation? In my copy of GAZ 10 > (Orcs of Thar) the migration map puts Blackmoor > firmly on Brun. Some earlier GAZ:n mention that > Blackmoor was moved to the north pole. And the > same north pole -version in products after GAZ 10. > (Plus the Skothar alternative). Seems like a > wholesale mess. Yeah- early products (from the DA series through Gaz13) had Blackmoor on Brun, in the Hyborea region. It wasn't until the Hollow World boxed set (which came out shortly after Gaz13) that the Blackmoor location had been oddly moved to Skothar- it appeared there on the HW maps, with no ceremony, and no regard for earlier products. It wasn't even in the right place, location wise, from Thonia (it was put southwest of Thonia, though Blackmoor was always Thonia's northernmost province.) It was later determined (by the "most recent is most accurate" mentality of TSR) that Blackmoor was, and always had been, on Skothar. Like you, I'd always stuck with the original version, but I've recently kind of come around to the Blackmoor on Skothar theory. Primarily due to Havard's cool maps of Skothar. :) > One thing why I like having the SE derive from > Blackmoor era and not the 1700 BC disaster is that > they would have needed a LONG time underground to > even start changing racially. Also, their culture > gains the dimension of long isolation, that 1700 BC > --> 1104 BC just doesn't get. Elven live so > bloody long that one person could remember this > whole era. I totally agree, and definitely consider the elves to be of the 3000 BC explosion era. Bear in mind, though, that real-world geological/evolutionary time frames seem to have little to no bearing on Mystara. The world goes from proto-humans (Neanderthals) to modern humans in a period of thousands of years, where it took millions here in the RW. It's something that has frustrated me a lot, but again, one of those things that I've come to accept and work with. I chalk it up to magic. > 4000 years is still too little for racial > development, but better than 2700. I never liked the > "it's magic" strategy of explanation - without a good > narrative, that is! D'OH! :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:22:39 -0800 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: Greetings from an old friend > long time and I don't know where, while last year (or > was it 2003?) James "First Thyatian Citizen" Ruhland > left the community after some quarrelling with those > pesky Alphatian troublemakers IIRC. > Also, Bruce Heard vanished from the gaming community > after giving us his last heritage: the XML spreadsheet > for dominion handling :) > James posted some stuff on the MMB last year, not too long ago. But he rejoined the army and these days he mostly blogs about the war on his own website. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:45:07 -0600 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: Greetings from an old friend DM wrote: > All the other Auldies are still pretty much here: > Hervé le Fay, Andrew "Spawn of Cthulhu", Geoff the new > List Ogre, Aaron the Merman and Alex the Alphatian. I > think you may also remember Thibault the Cartographer, > right there in the corner scribbling, Ohad the Shady > lurking in the shadows and GP Agosta aka Agathokles > the Uncanny. I think I was a triton, actually. ;) Most of the stuff I've been working on recently is about Darokin, though. I really ought to get back to working on my Re-Revised Darokin Timeline... I have about sixty years to go before I reach the founding of the Kingdom of Darokin and can release a chunk of it. -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 30 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2005 (#2005-26) ***************************************************************