Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 May 2005 to 11 May 2005 (#2005-96) From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> Date: 12/05/2005, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 387 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Karameikan Ministers (5) 2. Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy (3) 3. I am back 4. prodlist.htm (was: Re: [MYSTARA] I am back) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:20:50 +0200 From: Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> Subject: Karameikan Ministers The fact that Karameikos has ministers has never seemed right to me. Ministers is something I associate with democracies. A King (or Duke) is more likely to have advisors than ministers is he not? Or was the title Minister used also in pre-democratic times? HÃ¥vard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:31:05 +0200 From: Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> Subject: Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy I have some problems with the Order of the Griffon. I would have liked it to be more of a typical religious organization or an order for religious knights or Paladins. But then Desmond Kelvin is a member. There are other things that bother me with Kelvin aswell. Whats the deal with Clerics being rulers? It really doesn't fit with my understanding of a medieval society. I solved the problem with Sherlane by saying that Threshold is under the control of the Church. I am slowly developing Threshold into a Vatican-like town. Does anyone else have any thoughts on these things? Have you made changes or do you leave things as they are? HÃ¥vard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:54:26 -0400 From: John Hofmann <john@JOHNHOFMANN.COM> Subject: Re: Karameikan Ministers Duke/King Stefan also realizes that he's not the best ruler. I think it even says in his profile somewhere that his governing strategy is to find the right person for the job and get him to do it. I never had a problem with the Karameikan ministers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:20 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Karameikan Ministers > The fact that Karameikos has ministers has never > seemed right to me. Ministers is something I associate > with democracies. A King (or Duke) is more likely to > have advisors than ministers is he not? Or was the > title Minister used also in pre-democratic times? > > HÃ¥vard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:17:00 +0200 From: Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> Subject: Re: Karameikan Ministers --- John Hofmann <john@JOHNHOFMANN.COM> wrote: > Duke/King Stefan also realizes that he's not the > best ruler. I think it > even says in his profile somewhere that his > governing strategy is to find > the right person for the job and get him to do it. > I never had a problem > with the Karameikan ministers. Thanks for your comments. I understand why King Stefan would delegate some of his power. What I was reacting to was just the name of the title he gives to those people. It just has a modern ring to it, doesn't it? HÃ¥vard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:57:35 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss <brendan_corliss@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Karameikan Ministers --- Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> wrote: > Or was the title Minister used also in pre-democratic times? Actually, the title "minister" has been used for quite a long time in government... although, I'm not sure the common usage of the word in medieval gov'ts was exactly the same as the advisors in Karameikos. I did a google search and came up with the following link which talks about the conversion from gov't by seal to gov't by ministers under Queen Elizabeth in Tudor England. Granted, this is more the Renaissance period, but it does imply that there were already ministers in place when the change occurred. I didn't get too in depth into the article, but I think it clearly shows the use of the term Minister in pre-democratic European government. http://www.englishhistory.net/tudor/facts.html Hopes this sets your mind at ease. ;p -Damon aka Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprise, Ltd. Darokin, City May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:10:15 -0400 From: Angelo Bertolli <angelo@FREESHELL.ORG> Subject: Re: Karameikan Ministers Havard Faanes wrote: > --- John Hofmann <john@JOHNHOFMANN.COM> wrote: > > >> Duke/King Stefan also realizes that he's not the >> best ruler. I think it >> even says in his profile somewhere that his >> governing strategy is to find >> the right person for the job and get him to do it. >> I never had a problem >> with the Karameikan ministers. >> >> > > Thanks for your comments. I understand why King Stefan > would delegate some of his power. What I was reacting > to was just the name of the title he gives to those > people. It just has a modern ring to it, doesn't it? > > > One of my favorite tools: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=minister&searchmode=none ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:32:56 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss <brendan_corliss@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy The church in medieval Europe was very closely tied to the government, especially in France. In many cases, bishops would hold noble titles and be local rulers. So I would say, CoK clergy being Barons seems plausible. As far as the Order of the Griffon, it might be stretching a bit to totally model it after RW knightly orders since many of them (at least the most famous) had their origins in the Crusades. Since there is no event in Karameikan history that really corresponds, I think the OoG is very loosely related to RW orders. The Heldannic Knights, however, are far more similar to their RW counterparts IMO. Anyway, just my thoughts on the situation. Hope it helps. -Damon aka Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City --- Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> wrote: > I have some problems with the Order of the Griffon. > I > would have liked it to be more of a typical > religious > organization or an order for religious knights or > Paladins. > > But then Desmond Kelvin is a member. > > There are other things that bother me with Kelvin > aswell. Whats the deal with Clerics being rulers? It > really doesn't fit with my understanding of a > medieval > society. I solved the problem with Sherlane by > saying > that Threshold is under the control of the Church. I > am slowly developing Threshold into a Vatican-like > town. May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:54:44 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET> Subject: Re: Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy --- Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> wrote: > I have some problems with the Order of the Griffon. > I would have liked it to be more of a typical > religious organization or an order for religious > knights or Paladins. > > But then Desmond Kelvin is a member. As I posted on the MMB, I have been working on trying to develop the Order somewhat more than it was in Gaz1. Chief among the development is the idea of the Order as a "Knights Templar" sort of organization- as I have it, it was founded directly from the splintering/founding of the Church of Karameikos, and the settlement of Karameikos by Thyatians under Duke Stefan. The Order came about in an effort to protect followers of the Church of Karameikos as they journeyed from Thyatis to their new home, and to protect Thyatian settlers/members of the church against native Traladaran harassment and persecution, particularly at a time when the Duke and his forces were focused on the major settlements (primarily Specularum), as opposed to more outlying homesteads and communities. I felt that such a view on the Order would fit with the "militant" branch of the CoK that it is described as. It also helps to potentially differentiate it from similar Thyatian orders that might exist back in the Empire. In such a vein, someone like Desmond Kelvin would certainly fit into the Order, as he could use its influence/might to help enforce his law in his own barony. I haven't worked out the specifics of things yet- just have a very general timeline and an idea of how to construct a prestige class around it- but that's where I'm working from at the moment. It shouldn't be a large order- maybe a hundred Knights or so, tops (remember, they are all at least 5th level). Part of my timeline has it that there has been a recent membership drive sponsored/endorsed by Alfric Oderbry and one of the ranking knights of the order (name and status as yet undetermined), who want to increase the number of knights for a future crusade against infidel Traladarans. As such, there has been a recent downturn in the quality of the Knights that are members. > There are other things that bother me with Kelvin > aswell. Whats the deal with Clerics being rulers? It > really doesn't fit with my understanding of a > medieval society. I solved the problem with Sherlane > by saying that Threshold is under the control of the > Church. I am slowly developing Threshold into a > Vatican-like town. Is Kelvin a cleric? I don't recall offhand (and I should have the Gaz around my computer here somewhere... hmm. Can't find it.) In any case, recall that Sherlane Halaran and Oliver Jowett (in particular) were ranking patriarchs in the old Church of Thyatis who came with the Duke to establish their own new sect, and were pretty instrumental in his settlement process (seemingly, as they are among the top billers in the "NPCs who followed the Duke" paragraph). I don't think it would be too far off to say that the CoK has a very strong influence in Karameikos, perhaps more than in other regions. I could see Kelvin as not so much a "scholastic" cleric as simply the more general "militant arm of the chuch" type of cleric- not ranking high, politically speaking, in the church, but being somewhat above the layman. Halaran, as you point out, is a different case, as he is described as being a patriarch of the church, and in fact one of the possible successors to Jowett. That puts him in quite a different position, I'd say, than Kelvin. Your approach seems like a very interesting one. Recall also that Threshold is a very rural sort of town, and there doesn't appear to be much to the "barony" outside of the town itself and some logging camps. Halaran probably leaves the mundane tasks of rulership to the local town leaders, only stepping in when/where necessary. He probably spends most of his time administering to the followers of the CoK, and trying to spread the faith among the other residents. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:36:07 -0700 From: Chris Cherrington <inour12@SBCGLOBAL.NET> Subject: I am back I am finally back. I have my house up and running, and I have a new email to start recieving messages again. So, what did I miss? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:31:59 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes (USP Solar)" <vinimagus@TERRA.COM.BR> Subject: prodlist.htm (was: Re: [MYSTARA] I am back) At 23:36 11/5/2005, you wrote: > I am finally back. I have my house up and running, and I have a new email > to start recieving messages again. I know exactly how you feel. > So, what did I miss? You missed my frustrated attempt to understand what is holy material and what is cursed material (not in game, but in the real world). Anyway, I still would like to know whether someone thinks material should be added to or removed from the "prodlist.htm" page of Vaults of Pandius, as I use it as a guideline for acquisitions. Nice to hear from you again, Chris. Vini ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 May 2005 to 11 May 2005 (#2005-96) **************************************************************