Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 May 2005 to 12 May 2005 (#2005-97) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 13/05/2005, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 228 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy (3) 2. Karameikan Ministers 3. I am back 4. Baldandar ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:10:40 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy Havard Faanes wrote: > I have some problems with the Order of the Griffon. I > would have liked it to be more of a typical religious > organization or an order for religious knights or > Paladins. > > But then Desmond Kelvin is a member. Uhm, the Order of the Griffon _is_ an organization for religious knights, I'd say, even though it doesn't recruit much -- it looks for experienced warriors rather than recruits. What's the problem with Desmond being a member? If it's just because he's a priest, then I'd just consider that in AD&D (only to a lesser extent in OD&D, even though the Cleric class is almost identical in the two games) the Cleric is said to be similar to the Templar, Teutonic and Hospitaler Knights of the middle age. Then I'd just modify him to suit whatever ruleset is adopted: in AD&D, I'd make him a War Priest of Vanya, given his interest in military matters (he doesn't seem the Paladin or Crusader type), while in 3e you might want to make hime a multiclass Cleric/Fighter or something like that. In OD&D, I might consider moving him from Cleric to Paladin. > There are other things that bother me with Kelvin > aswell. Whats the deal with Clerics being rulers? It > really doesn't fit with my understanding of a medieval > society. Why? I'd point out that Bishop-Counts were a common practice in the early middle age (around 1000-1100), during the reign of emperors Otto I to Henry IV. The german emperors chose the bishops, and gave them political control of their regions, as vassals. This allowed the emperor to decentralize power while avoiding the formation of local dynasties. This doesn't seem to be the case of Karameikos, though, since here priests can marry. > I solved the problem with Sherlane by saying > that Threshold is under the control of the Church. I > am slowly developing Threshold into a Vatican-like > town. Uhm, what about Rugalov and Kelvin? They are also held by priest-nobles. The GAZ says that the vassalage bond doesn't interfere with the priestly oaths for these clerics, which is to say that most Karameikan clerics are free to receive noble titles and lands. My position on the issue is that the priest-rulers have separate responsibilities as priests/bishops/patriarchs of a given region and lay rulers of a fief/barony. They may or may not add other (local) laws to the Duke's Law, but this will be upheld only by the local law enforcement. I.e., Sherlane cannot rule his barony as a theocracy more than Retameron or Arteris -- of course, he _could_ persuade them to pass local laws inspired to religious principles. GP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:36:46 +0200 From: Altair IV Subject: Re: Karameikan Ministers To be a Minister simply means to "administrate" something for somebody else. The whole conceipt is not necessarily connected to modern democracies, and already existed in republican Rome (II - I century b.C.) with the very same name (minister is a Latin word). Feudal lords, and kings, had ministers, and also oriental leaders. Their actual decisional power varied widely, from simple advising right, to the complete control over some aspect of political life (e.g. justice, or war, or taxations) So I don't find anything strange or wrong in karameikan minister, especially if I think to the poor political skills of Stefan Altair IV - the darkstar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 07:39:15 -0700 From: Boonedale Subject: Re: I am back --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > I am finally back. I have my house up and running, > and I have a new email > to start recieving messages again. > So, what did I miss? WB Chris. "Happy Hunting!" __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:07:51 +0200 From: Altair IV Subject: Re: Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy I don't know enough about the Order and Kelvin to say something new, but I can say that it was normal in feudal age to have bishops, and also monk-leaders (I don't know the English word for "Abate", sorry) as rulers. It was an inheritage of Carlo Magno, who set his empire to be a political expression of Christianity, based on augustinian "two cities"... but in that Age, all people were united under a unique religion, while I don't think same conditions are recognizable in Karameikos... Altair IV - the darkstar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:56:19 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: Order of the Griffon/Karameikan Clergy --- Andrew Theisen wrote: > Chief among the development is the idea of the > Order as a "Knights Templar" sort of organization- > as > I have it, it was founded directly from the > splintering/founding of the Church of Karameikos, > and > the settlement of Karameikos by Thyatians under Duke > Stefan. The Order came about in an effort to protect > followers of the Church of Karameikos as they > journeyed from Thyatis to their new home, and to > protect Thyatian settlers/members of the church > against native Traladaran harassment and > persecution, > particularly at a time when the Duke and his forces > were focused on the major settlements (primarily > Specularum), as opposed to more outlying homesteads > and communities. I like it. It gives the OoG a nice background, as opposed to simply being the CoK's "muscle". I also like the loose parallels between the RW crusades and the coming of the Duke and his followers. That's the link to the Templars (Hospitaler, Teutonics, etc.) that I felt was missing in using the RW model. Interesting indeed... > I haven't worked out the specifics of things yet- > just > have a very general timeline and an idea of how to > construct a prestige class around it- but that's > where > I'm working from at the moment. It shouldn't be a > large order- maybe a hundred Knights or so, tops > (remember, they are all at least 5th level). I'd love to see what you've come up with so far for the Prestige Class. I've gotten a new player in my campaign that's a Ftr/Clr from the CoK and he's interested in the idea of becoming a member of the OoG, so I'm going to be in a position of coming up with some guidelines myself. > Is Kelvin a cleric? I don't recall offhand (and I > should have the Gaz around my computer here > somewhere... hmm. Can't find it.) Yes, he is - in both Gaz1 and K:KoA -Damon aka Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd Darokin City May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:34:11 -0400 From: shawn Subject: Re: Baldandar > I went to VoP (aaaaalways VoP...) search page at > http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/search.html > and searched "baldandar" OR "baldandars", receiving the following link, w= > ith 5 cool hits: > > http://freefind.com/servlet/freefind?id=3D574922&pageid=3Dr&query=3Dbald= > andar+baldandars&mode=3DFind+pages+matching+ANY+word > > The peculiar thing is that the Baldandar MM-like entry has the following = > name: > http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/baldandr.html > (is it "baldandr" and not "baldandr" to fit in the "8.3" format?) yeah force of habit I'm afriad ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 May 2005 to 12 May 2005 (#2005-97) ***************************************************************