Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Mar 2006 to 8 Mar 2006 (#2006-45) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 09/03/2006, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 418 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Blackmoor 2. A Timeline of the North (7) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 09:44:47 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > I'm sure that Afridhi, Froggies, Skandaharians Peshwa > and Thonians as well as the Egg played a role, also in > the later ages of Blackmoor so these could also > provide some ideas for what may have been left behind > in various parts of Mystara today. To this end, in the ethnology writeups Giulio (and I, to a lesser extent) did a lot of work to bridge the Blackmoor cultures with the modern Mystaran ethnic groups. > As for your thoughts on the Immortals, I suspect that > the handful of known Mystaran Immortals who are old > enough to remember Blackmoor, they were probably > around at that time. Odin, Ordana, Ixion and Thanatos > have obvious parallells in the ZGG book, so much you > think they made them that way on purpose...*winks to > Dustin*. The following Immortals were certainly around during the Blackmoorian age: Protius, Faunus, Terra, Ka, Korotiku, Hel, Calitha, Kagyar, Valerias and Verthandi. Would it be possible (easy/difficult) to find parallels in the Blackmoor books as well? Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:25:17 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: A Timeline of the North Hi all, in the Italian MMB, we have been discussing the history of north-eastern Brun -- Wendar, Denagoth, Ghyr, but also Norwold and the Wildlands. For ease of reference, I've collected a timeline of Northern-Eastern Brun, based on the Wendar and Denagoth timeline (http://pandius.com/wenden.html), the works on Littonia, Karjaala, Wyrmsteeth and the Heldannic Knights found on the Vaults, and the discussions on the placement of Ghyr and the XL1 events in the Italian MMB. Here are the results: Timeline of the North XXX century BC: The Korrigan create the Elvenstar; the Brute race of Ghyr is created. XXVIII century BC: Antalians conquer the Ghyr region as well as the Plains of Avien XXVII century BC: The Denagothian half-human tribes migrate to the wildlands north of the Plains of Avien XXIV century BC: Rise of the Antalian culture in Norwold 2120 BC: The Genalleth Elves reach Wendar 2087 BC: Foundation of the barbarian Kingdom of Denagoth by warrior-queen Jotakk 1900 BC: Foundation of the first Dragon Kingdom of Wyrmsteeth 1725 BC: Loark's horde invasion; fall of the Antalian culture, fall of Denagoth 1700 BC: The Glantrian explosion causes a nuclear winter in Wendar and Denagoth 1688 BC: Death of the elven leader Enoreth XI century BC: Antalians settle in Wendar V century BC: Elven colonists from Shiye-Lawr found the Foresthomes in Norwold I century AC: Foundation of Kaarjala and Littonia 125 AC: Foundation of the Wendarian League V century AC: Foundation of Leehashire 563 AC: Foundation of the Kingdom of Essuria VII century AC: Foundation of the Barony of Ghyr, a vassal of the Essurian kings 640 AC: White Bear River battle (Pojaara-Frosthaven alliance vs. Kaarjala-Littonia-Leehashire alliance) 648 AC: Naga River battle (Essuria vs. Genalleth and Antalians) 698 AC: The barbarian warlord Henadin invades Essuria 718 AC: Death of Henadin, foundation of Gereth Minar 748 AC: Second Essuria-Wendar war (Essuria vs. Genalleth, Geffronell and Antalians) ca. 800 AC: First Alphatian attempt to colonize Norwold 828 AC: Foundation of the modern Dragon Kingdom of Wyrmsteeth 876 AC: The Avien tribes secede from Essuria 898 AC: Landryn Teriak becomes King of Essuria 900 AC: Foundation of Oceansend 906 AC: Gylharen starts uniting Wendar 907 AC: Landryn Teriak launches attacks against the barbarian tribes and Wendar 908 AC: The warlord Henadin "returns from the dead" to destroy Essuria 909 AC: Landryn Teriak is defeated, Drax Tallen falls 910 AC: Gylharen crowned King of Wendar; Ghyr baronies become fully independent 915 AC: The Prism Wars begin in Ghyr 934 AC: Landryn Teriak establishes a new Kingdom of Denagoth from the Tower of Gereth Minar 935 AC: End of the Prism Wars and foundation of the Kingdom of Ghyr 938 AC: Second invasion of the Shadowlord 948 AC: King Qasmar of Ghyr dies, King Ganto takes his place 950 AC: Conquest of Haldisvall by the Hattian knights of Vanya 952 AC: Foundation of the Heldannic Territories 960 AC: Oceansend claims independence 960 AC: King Gylharen is fully transformed into an elf 980 AC: Landryn Teriak, the Shadowlord, restored by the Idris cult, returns to Gereth Minar 984 AC: Orcish invasion of Leehashire 985 AC: The Heldannic Order is recognized as a sovereign nation by most Known World governments 985 AC: Quest for the Heartstone in Ghyr 992 AC: Alphatians found Alpha, and the Kingdom of Norwold 995 AC: Lernal the Swill named governor of Landfall Now, I'd like to analyze a few points from the Wendar/Denagoth Timeline. Here are the Kings of Denagoth, according to the Denagoth/Wendar timeline (http://pandius.com/wenden.html). All years are AC. Nebunar 563-595 Dallovan 595-628 Naga 628-648 648-658 Ranyn 658-688 Gereth 688-733 Minar 733-758 Landru 758-774 Beldan 774-788 Naren 788-808 Halvan 808-843 Gallathon 843-868 Mirimar 868-888 Vespen 888-898 Landryn 898-909 There's at least one issue with this timeline, namely the fact that Halvan (1) is supposed to have been a prince (otherwise his apprenticeship with Bensarian is harder to explain) and (2) inherits the throne only later in his life (but here his reign lasts some 30 years). Also, it is unlikely that Halvan could discover and keep the Blackstick under the reign of a puppet king. So, I'd rather modify the timeline, by extending Naren's and Gallathon's reign and shortening Halvan's, reducing Idris' control on the kings from Beldan to Vespen (none of the known ones was likely to be involved with the Church of Idris to any extent, and neither would Halvan's father or brother), and having them introduce or switch their support to the cult of He Who Watches (IMO an identity of the Star Dragon). He Who Watches also happens to be the main patron of Ghyr, it helps fitting Ghyr as a former borderland of Essuria that becomes independent after Teriak's defeat by the forces of Henadin. The XL1 timeline allows this easily, since if Landryn is defeated in 909 AC, then XL1 must happen circa 985 AC, due to the length of the lives and reigns of the two kings of Ghyr (Qasmar and Ganto). 985 AC is a good temporal location for XL1, since it allows the characters Figgen, Strongheart, Mercion, etc. to be of companion level by 1000 AC, when they (at least, Figgen) are settled in Ierendi. This also allows Strongheart and Mercion to be king and queen of Ierendi for a short while between Palik and Marianna (GAZ monarchs) and Reston and Tristilia (PWA monarchs). Comments? GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 08:13:16 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: A Timeline of the North I've got a timeline of Ghyr that I can send when I get home, based on my own work on the kingdom. Some notable changes that I put in there that I can recall offhand- I believe I pushed XL-1 to 1000 AC (Gaz era, so that the adventure could still be run by interested parties, rather than retrofitting it into the past), and put Strongheart's reign as monarch during the WotI period (pre-Reston, c. 1004-1005 AC, so that he is "king" when the Master invades the Known World, as per module X10: Red Arrow, Black Shield). There is a strong implication from the stories of the LJN characters in AC1: Shady Dragon Inn that there may have been more than one quest to find the Heartstone (specifically, Kelek's story there, IIRC, seems to indicate more than one "quest"), so I fit a couple of them in there. I tied Dahnakriss in with Landfall (he's the guildmaster of the Thieve's Guild there, as I have it) and made Tharadodus an Alphatian (or Norwold-Alphatian) wizard. Of course, my timeline differs as far as when the Wizard Wars in Wendar are set (I actually tied together the Wizard Wars and the Prism Wars in Ghyr- which is the period of time when I had Ghyr become independent of the fallen kingdom of Essuria), but I'll let you all have a peek all the same. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:39:56 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: A Timeline of the North Andrew Theisen ha scritto: > I've got a timeline of Ghyr that I can send when I get home, based on my own work on the kingdom. Oh, I'd like to see it. For the rest, I'm actually in favor of linking Dahnakriss with Landfall -- especially since we placed Ghyr in the north-eastern area of the Denagoth Plateau, directly north of Drax Tallen, and therefore quite near Landfall. OTOH, I prefer to keep the Heartstone Quest/XL1 in the past -- I'm not specifically interested in playing it in 1000 AC, and 985 is not that far in the past. Of course, more quests could be had -- but I suppose at some point the Kings of Ghyr will realize the need for a better safebox ;) (On this line, the modern version could see the PCs hired by Dahnakriss' successor to steal once more the Heartstone from Castle Ghyr!) Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 08:47:51 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: A Timeline of the North Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > >There's at least one issue with this timeline, namely the fact that > Halvan (1) is supposed to have been a prince (otherwise his apprenticeship with Bensarian is harder to explain) and (2) inherits the throne only later in his life (but here his reign lasts some 30 years). There are a couple of problems with that timeline, IIRC. There is at least one notable event that is not taken into account (it is a minor footnote of a date in one of the sub-entries dealing with a note or something- I have the specifics in my timeline at home, and I'll find it then). One suggestion that I could make offhand is extending Mirimar's reign. IIRC, trade flourished under his reign, and it makes sense (to me) that he might have ruled longer and the realm prospered under him. Again, IIRC (I really wish I had my timeline handy), I had the founding of Ghyr under the reign of either Mirimar or Gallathon- as part of their expansion of the kingdom of Essuria and trade, etc. (I think there is a strong implication that Ghyr is still a very young nation, IMO). > 985 AC is a good temporal location for XL1, since it allows the characters Figgen, Strongheart, Mercion, etc. to be of companion level by 1000 AC, when they (at least, Figgen) are settled in Ierendi. > This also allows Strongheart and Mercion to be king and queen of Ierendi or a short while between Palik and Marianna (GAZ monarchs) and Reston and Tristilia (PWA monarchs). I don't know that the characters would necessarily need to be of Companion level (does Gaz4 say they are Companion level?), nor would it necessarily take 15 years- some characters seem to gain an inordinate amount of levels in a very short time in the various rules sets. As I noted, I'd personally prefer to have XL-1 (the actual adventure) set c. 1000 AC, for ease of transition/play for prospective groups, but there is a definite implication that the Heartstone has been quested after more than once, so we need not confine ourselves to one Quest (there are at least two quests- the one that led to King Qasmar gaining the Heartstone, and then later after Dahnakriss stole it from King Ganto.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 08:55:21 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: A Timeline of the North Giampaolo Agosta wrote: OTOH, I prefer to keep the Heartstone Quest/XL1 in the past -- I'm not specifically interested in playing it in 1000 AC, and 985 is not that far in the past. That's certainly a viable choice. My interest in not pinning it down to a past date is primarily motivated by keeping the utility of the adventure for the Mystara community at large. The retrofitting of some of the modules into the past (or future- such as X10), while it is interesting from a "campaign world continuity" standpoint, kind of ruins the usefulness of them for DMs and Players who would like to run them, but whose campaigns have not progressed to that point in the chronology. It would require either playing stand-alone adventures in the past with different characters, or arranging some means of time-travel. For that reason alone I tend to shy away from "strong-arming" anyone into saying, "this is when such-and-such took place". Of course, I think I sometimes overthink this- one of the reasons it has taken me so long to get more of my Ghyr information out into the Mystara community is because I've spent so much time trying to arrange information in such a way as to not completely invalidate extant information (such as the Wendar/Denagoth timeline, which my version of Ghyr does not completely conform with), so that people could use both if they chose. I guess I should just post what I have, and let people pick and choose for themselves what they like or don't. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:17:09 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: A Timeline of the North Andrew Theisen ha scritto: > > That's certainly a viable choice. My interest in not pinning it down to a past date is primarily motivated by keeping the utility of the adventure for the Mystara community I do understand the idea of not pinning it down much more than setting it at 1000 AC, indeed. Most campaigns have characters at 1st level at 1000 AC, so XL1 would be almost useless if fixed there -- OTOH, keeping an adventure with such political links floating in time isn't that easy as well. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:24:51 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: A Timeline of the North Andrew Theisen ha scritto: > > There are a couple of problems with that timeline, IIRC. There is at > least one notable event that is not taken into account (it is a minor > footnote of a date in one of the sub-entries dealing with a note or > something- I have the specifics in my timeline at home, and I'll find > it then). Ok, let me know about this. > One suggestion that I could make offhand is extending Mirimar's > reign. IIRC, trade flourished under his reign, and it makes sense (to > me) that he might have ruled longer and the realm prospered under > him. Yes, that's a good idea. > Again, IIRC (I really wish I had my timeline handy), I had the > founding of Ghyr under the reign of either Mirimar or Gallathon- as > part of their expansion of the kingdom of Essuria and trade, etc. (I > think there is a strong implication that Ghyr is still a very young > nation, IMO). OTOH, X11 says that the peak of Essurian power and wealth is with Halvan, and the later kings are somewhat decadent -- probably they do engage in trade, but actual territorial expansion is not pursued by these kings. I find it likely that they concentrated on building programs in the capitol -- probably much of the construction of Drax Tallen's structure happens under Mirimar. > I don't know that the characters would necessarily need to be of > Companion level (does Gaz4 say they are Companion level?), nor would > it necessarily take 15 years- some characters seem to gain an > inordinate amount of levels in a very short time in the various rules > sets. Well, Palik and Marianna are upper Expert-low Companion level in AC 1000, and Marianna at least not that old, and certainly both interested in keeping the crown and supported by local political factions (the navy). OTOH, Tristilia and Reston are upper Companion levels. So it's reasonable, though not necessary that he kings and queens that reign between these pairs be somewhere in the 16-20th level range -- and certainly not as old and addled as in X10 ;) > As I noted, I'd personally prefer to have XL-1 (the actual adventure) > set c. 1000 AC, for ease of transition/play for prospective groups, > but there is a definite implication that the Heartstone has been > quested after more than once, so we need not confine ourselves to one > Quest (there are at least two quests- the one that led to King Qasmar > gaining the Heartstone, and then later after Dahnakriss stole it from > King Ganto.) That's indeed possible, though the "quests" would have been of much different nature. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Mar 2006 to 8 Mar 2006 (#2006-45) *************************************************************