Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Feb 2008 to 18 Feb 2008 (#2008-29) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 19/02/2008, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There is 1 message totalling 361 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:21:01 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C1tila_Pires_dos_Santos?= Subject: Re: Mystaran Numismatics - Karameikos Hi Greg, hope it's not late for my answer ;) First of all, thanks for swapping the Krona and Koruna names ;) Also, and again, nice work here =3D) I was wondering if the traaldarans didn't get the Cronas from the minrothaddans in the first place. I think this may (but not necessarely is) what happened since while Traladara was still leaving it's dark days behild= , the islands of the minrothians were already flourishing with trade; and whe= n the traladaran city-states emerged from the chaos, the minrothians were quick to dominate it's economy. Also, the minrothians, apprearently, always tended to have good relations with the thyatians (at least until 488 AC, when Minrothad became a nation). So, it could be easier this way to this coin have a name that comes from a thyatian name ;) I'll post here a translation of what I wrote for the player's manual I'll use for my pbem (SC at 450 AC, when the traladaran migrated to there; the idea is that the traladarans arrived in 445 AC, founding Kladanovic, and by 450 AC, they took over the LB outpost that will become Slagovich). This als= o includes a possible theory for explaining VotPA SC traladaran coins without including Cinnabryl o "Because of Minroth's Islands own nature, all coins from all neighbour and distant nations can be found here. However, the original human inhabitants of those islands use to mint coins and a small part of it still remains. Th= e main coin minted by the minrothians is the gold Crona. The coin's name come= s from the thyatian word for "Crown". Traladarans from the city-states also mint their own coins as well, especially their own Cronas (called instead "Korun" in Hojah/Halag). Beaide= s that, each city-states mints their own silver and copper coins: Hojah/Halag= , for example, mints a silver coin called Levu, which name comes from the thyatain word for "Leon" and it was named as such because of the ruling family's coat of arms. Ocasionally special coins (usually of platinum, that's quite rare in Traladara) are minted by the city-states and are calle= d "Halav". Until the present moment, the city-state of Kladanovic do not posses it's own coinage, but it already have plans to mint its own koruns, Levus and Halavs very soon. The Lawful Brotherhood also have its own coinage: the cooper Dark, the silver Dim, the electrum Fair and the gold Bright. These coins (Fair and Bright) have their names because gold, minted while in contact with the omnipresent Vermeil (that glows a faint reddish light) results in a even strong glowing. Appearently neither silver nor copper have the same property." And here it is my and GP's idea about Halag's heraldry until 450 AC, 450 AC-900 AC and after the fall of the Black Eagle (with the karameikan colour= s and the lion sejant instead of rampant, as a sign of loyalty to the crown), and also SC Hojah's Coat of Arms. =3D) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2340/halagwv6.png On 1/31/08, Greg Weatherup wrote: > > Greetings, > > ok, here's a more finalised version of the Karameikos entry. I'm going > with the larger sized coin default (60 & 30 per pound) but it is an issue= I > plan to address in the introduction. I've swapped Krona/Koruna, and the > various other changes we discussed. > > Karameikos: > Description/Notes/overview: As part of the Thyatian Empire, the Thyatian > Imperial Standard is used alongside the traditional traladaran domestic > system. The Thyatian lords had previously attempted to introduce the > traditional thyatian domestic system, but it never caught on (however the > Baron of Kelvin does occasionally issue obolos =96 see below). Largely a > Barter and agricultural economy, the usage of coins is growing rapidly, > especially in the towns. Karameikos produces a Silver Crona based on the > Thyatian Asterius in a de facto adherence to the Tendrius agreement. The > mints at Highforge & Threshold also produce a Copper coin based on the > Thyatian Denarius, the Kopec, but it is not yet in large quantities in > circulation, more common is a copper Half-Kopec coin (1/2 cp). It should= be > noted that the Highforge mint is not under ducal authority but that much > outsourcing of the duchies currency needs results in large numbers of coi= ns > produced by the gnomes and dwarves of Highforge. Many of the coins produ= ced > at Highforge can be identified by their milled edges. > Small denomination bronze coins: At the base of the monetary system is a > small token or coin which I'll call a "Bit". In the Thyatian language th= is > would be "Brass" and they look down on it as a worthless and backward coi= n, > like a poor imitation of their Aes (see Thyatis), they might even call it > Aes in their language. However, in the Traladaran language it is called = a > "Bronze" and the native Traladarans make a point of utilizing it (after a= ll, > the secret of Bronze making was taught to Halav and the Traladarans by th= e > Guardian Immortals so long ago). The Standard "Bit" is worth a quarter o= f a > Kopec (0.25 cp) though some are found in other values (i.e. two bits bein= g > equivalent of a half-kopec). While there is no government control over t= his > coin the value is so small that it is usually not worth a counterfeiter's > effort. Design note: I started out using "Bit" as a placeholder till I > could come up with a more proper name, but have since come to prefer "Bit= ". > Copper Coins: To help weaken the moneychanger's guild, they were stripped > of their right to mint copper coins at the time of the conquest. The > Thyatians had hoped that their traditional currency systems would come to > replace the native Traladaran ones, but the Traditional currency system > never really caught on and the imperial standard coins are always in shor= t > supply. When the shortage of copper coins became acute, and the Thyatian= s > realized this was only increasing the usage of the "Bits", they establish= ed > a mint at Threshold to produce Copper Kopecs and started putting in order= s > at the Highforge mint for kopecs. In addition to the Kopec, the half-Kop= ec > denomination was widely produced in the hopes of driving out the old > "bits". While the half-Kopec has become a widely used denomination, it h= as > not driven the "bit" system out. Many of the whole Kopec denominated coi= ns > that do get produced end up getting cut up or broken to make the equivale= nts > of half, quarter, etc. Kopecs, much to the dismay of the mint > officials. Much counterfeiting of the half-Kopec takes place, but given = a > relative scarcity of coins, such counterfeits are usually accepted at fac= e > value out of necessity. (RW inspiration for this: counterfeit copper coin= s > in the American Colonies due to a scarcity of coins shipped over from > Britain). Many of these counterfeits are restamped Aes (see Thyatis). I > don't think this is due to any active work by either the Veiled Society n= or > the Kingdom of Thieves, but is more small-time operations, or even mercha= nts > making tokens out of economic necessity, etc. (though perhaps the VS & Ko= T > do some small scale counterfeiting of coppers or bits as a small sideline= =96 > adventure idea: at some point in the future one or the other of the two > decide to start counterfeiting silver or gold coins and the adventurers m= ust > uncover the culprits). The Kopec series usually depict flora and fauna f= rom > the duchy's wilds, the whole Kopec featuring a wolf (per K:KoA). A Kopec= is > worth 1cp (thus a half-kopec is 0.5cp, and etc.) > The "Crowns": The "Crown", in one form or another, has been a denominatio= n > in Traladara for centuries. The Crona, better known in previous eras as = the > Krona (in the central coast area around Marlinenev), Krone (in the > Darokinian influenced North-East, plural form is Kroner), and Koruna (in = the > greater Halag area), has long been produced at high quality/high standard= s, > on the authority of the monechangers guild in Specularuam. Originally it > was a very small, fine hexagonal shaped gold coin. The "Crown" and the > authority it represents was chosen for a coinage standard by the oligarch= s > of the City state since the authority would figuratively be "in the hands= of > the oligarchs" since only the wealthy oligarchs could afford to use a gol= d > coin. Throughout Traladara this "crown" was adopted as a standard > coin/shape/denomination but the symbolism was lost and a depiction > representing King Halav soon became the norm, even back within Marlinev. > This was also taken to the city-states, other than Slagovich (See > Slagovich), where it became the modern Korun (See City States). Meanwhil= e > the gold denomination had also spread to what would become the Minrothad > Guilds, with the symbolism intact but under the name of Crona, which they > established as the capstone of their weight based currency system (see > Minrothad Guilds). When the Thyatians came into Traladara they not only > imported their currency system to operate alongside the Traladaran one, t= hey > also established the goldsmiths guild with the 902 AC decree. After 902 = the > moneychangers guild still had a monopoly on the minting of "crowns" > (Krona/Koruna/Krone{r}) but they were not permitted to mint gold coins, s= o > they adopted the current coin, in silver, round, and larger than the old > gold krona/koruna/krone(r), it took some time but eventually this coin ca= me > to be produced to that of the tendrius standard, thus Karameikos is de-fa= cto > on the Tendrius Standard. The Thyatians were happy to see their new > currency order (both the imperial thyatian denominations and the > Guilden/Guilders) supplanted above the old traladaran ways. To reflect t= hat > it was not exactly equal in value to the old gold coins, and to reflect t= he > changing of pronunciations over the centuries, the moneychangers guild > christened this new coin the "Crona" (ironically equal to the Minrothad > version of the name). Many of the older hexagonal shaped gold coins > depicting king Halav are still in circulation outside of the capital > (usually at 5sp in value though even rarer coins of multiple kroner/Korun= a > are occasionally encountered) but the older ones in Marlinev/Specularuam > have largely been melted and re-used over the span of the last century by > the goldsmiths guild. The silver crona usually features buildings and > landmarks on them. > Gold Coins: The Duke would eventually like to produce a Gold coin at > Threshold, but none exist yet. Eventually (at or following Karameikan > independence) the mint will start producing a gold coin, the Royal, a > hexagonal shaped coin. It will be hexagonal and much like a larger versi= on > of the older golden kronas (chosen for continuity). It will be produced > exclusively in Threshold to avoid the monopoly granted within Specularuam= to > the goldsmiths guild. For now the goldsmiths guild occasionally produces > coins valued in various "guilden's" (in the Dwarvish language =96 see > Buhrohur, and perhaps in the Hattian dialect of Thyatian as well, though = I > am unsure of this last bit) or "Guilders" (in standard Thyatian) or > "Florins" (in Traladaran and perhaps in Kerendan &/or Ispan dialects of > Thyatian =96 see Vyalia), and while these coins have no official direct s= tatus > from the Duke, given that the goldsmiths guild is dominated by dwarven > craftsmen, they are usually of very fine craftsmanship and quality so are > widely accepted, (The exact value is left up to individual DM's). Howeve= r > the local economy of Specularuam is currently too small to produce much > excess gold, and most of what gold there is gets made into jewelry and su= ch > by the guild. Some of the smaller 1 fl. Coins circulate within Specularu= am, > while most of the larger ones (i.e. 10 fl.) end up being exported. > Also see Thyatian Imperial Standard coins, which are found circulating > within Karameikos as well. > Other Coins: The barons appointed by Karameikos have the same rights > regarding currency as a Thyatian Imperial lord (see Traditional Thyatian > system), and thus can produce small denomination brass, bronze, or lesser > alloy coins, but of the Barons only two currently exercise this right =96= von > Hendricks and Kelvin. Baron Vorloi, due to his knowledge of mercantilism > knows that any issue he could produce would be unnecessary and possibly > hurtful to the economy given the current economic situation. Threshold i= s > site of the main ducal mint and that mint is too busy producing coins of = the > realm, though the patriarch occasionally has a religious medal or two > produced. Kelvin occasionally employs a few craftsmen to produce obolus > coins, a rare denomination even within the Thyatian system, chosen becaus= e > it is the closest equivalent to the half-kopec in value, this usually ble= nds > in with the half-kopecs and occasionally turns up. As is par for the > traditional Thyatian system (see q.v.) it is usually underweight and on a > metal-to-metal value would really be worth about 5/11 or 5/12 of a kopec, > but it usually changes hands unnoticed as a half-kopec. The Black Eagle > Baron produces a series of large, base metal coins denominated in Kopec > values which feature a prominent portrait of the Baron (RW inspiration- > Renaissance Italian Silver Testones) but these generally don't circulate > much beyond Fort Doom and the Baron's mercenaries. At some point in the > future the mint will begin producing small numbers of an electrum Halav, = in > the hexagonal shaped tradition of the gold Royals and Kronas. > Domestic exceptions- Highforge & the Elves. The independent enclave of > Highforge is as of yet undeveloped for purposes of this document. Amongs= t > the elves the Vyalia likely continue to reckon in terms of silver Florins > (as a unit of account), and the Calarii like wise have a unit of account = in > terms of their traditional (silver Schilling?) which it should be noted h= as > never been an actual coin. For the Calarii unit, the exact value is left= up > to the needs of individual DM's, but it is recommended that it be of simi= lar > value to both the Vyalia Florin (see Vyalia) and the Alfheim Ten'er (see > Alfheim) and also that it be an even fraction of the value of a typical > horse. > Foreign usage: Outside of Karameikos these are accepted in Selenica, > Eastern parts of the 5 shires, and in Machetos. Some Minrothad and Ieren= di > merchants coming to Specularuam will accept it as well but the islands > themselves will not. > Foreign circulation: Some of the traditional Thyatian denominations (see > Thyatis) are found in circulation, especially coins from > Kerendas/Machetos/Mositius, particularly in the Eastern parts of the > country. > Summation: > Domestic System: 1 Crona=3D10 Kopecs=3D40 standard "Bits" > Thyatian Imperial Standard- 1 Lucin=3D20 Asterius=3D200 Denarius=3D1/10 E= mperor > Local Crona & Kopec match the Imperial Asterius and Denarius, > respectively. > Main Denominations encountered (see text for other rarer coins): > Denomination Value Weight Notes > "Bit" (Bronze/Brass) (standard value=3D0.25cp), other values ex= ist > Copper Half-Kopec 0.5cp 120/lb Common, Small > Copper Kopec 1cp 60/lb Rare > Copper Denarius 1cp 60/lb Imperial Standard, Importe= d > Silver Crona 1sp 60/lb most now de facto > Tendrius Standard > Silver Asterius 1sp 60/lb Imperial Standard, > Imported, Tendrius System > Gold Lucin 20sp 30/lb Imperial Standard, > Imported > Platinum Emperor 200sp 15/lb Imperial Standard, > Imported, Large, rare > Historical coin ideas: Perhaps copper Para's, silver imitations of Gold > Dinars and Gold Markas? Perhaps pengos and/or forint's (the later being > imitations of Vyalian florins?) and Banicas produced by various traladara= n > lords? Coins based on neighboring countries? Older Kopecs and > Kronas/Korunas/Kroner, even gold Kronas/etc. Old Vyalian Florins. The > Northeast of the country was dominated by Darokinian, and especially > Selenican, interests, see Darokin entry for ideas. The coastal areas had > influence and trade from early Minrothad, see Minrothad entry for ideas. > > Anything else? Does this sound like a good "finalized" version? > > Thank you for all your input, > > Greg Weatherup > GWxup@excite.com > Gecko_G@email.com > http://members.fortunecity.com/gecko_g/ > > PS I'm honored to see the draft version "published" in the vaults, thank > you. > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Feb 2008 to 18 Feb 2008 (#2008-29) ***************************************************************