mystara-digest Wednesday, July 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 484
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - War Machine
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
[MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - War Machine
Re: [MYSTARA] - 1015 Almanac strikes back!
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:27:10 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk
In a message dated 98-07-07 19:03:55 EDT, you write:
<< See, that's why I'm "optimistic" for Alphatia (plus, you had everyone at
TSR working over time to make sure that the Alphatians would rebuild, and
you have everyone who works on the Net Almanac now working overtime towards
the same goal).
IMO, my favorite nation was, meanwhile, headed towards the scrapheap of
history. Thus I have difficulty taking the lamentations of Alphatophiles
too seriously. Your Empire is somewhat less powerful than before, but still
far and away the most potent force in the known Multiverse (both AD&D &
D&D. Perhaps the only thing close in *any* fantasy setting is
Thera/Earthdawn).>>
then why focus on the optimists view of kw alphatia? thyatis has problems so
should alphatia. instead of opposing what i perceive the status of alphatia to
be you should be helping me root out those chinks in alphatia's armor for
exploitation.
ex.- look at that big bad army. on paper it looks formidable. but so did the
french army of ww2. or the italian navy of ww2. and yes even the united states
army (circa kasserine). on paper all were formidable. however, in practice
each showed its flaws. respectively tactical deployment, fuel, and troop
quality and tactics.
>
> i doubt thyatis will ever die. the thyatis crowd won't allow it. it may
change
> in composition somewhat, but it won't die. since canon thyatis is still
in the
> throes of the pwas, it cannot get any worse. however, there are hints at
> things to come. thyatian holdings seeking more independance.
>
"It can't get any worse" except that you describe one way that it will
(disolution of the central government in favor of lots of weak
semi-independant states, which is a recipe for disaster).
As I said, things can get worse, IRL they did get worse, but I feel no
need to relive that. If you want to visit disaster on someone, why not
Alphatia?
Put that way, it becomes a little more apparent why not, eh?
No one likes to see a place they like nuked repetedly month after month,
year after year. At least Alphatia *is* rebuilding, while everything I see
indicates that the intention is for things to continue to decline for
Thyatis.
Anyhow, getting up and whining about that isn't what the mailing list is
for, so I suppose I ought to stop: it isn't constructive. >>
well thyatis did (canon) and continues (net almanacs) to get nuked. however,
instead of this being the downward spiral this can also be the beginning of
brighter better days. thyatis is going through a recovery from major defeats
against alphatia and the thothians. most of thyatis's rebuilding was used by
the change of power between thincol and eusebius. once in power eusebius began
rebuilding. it does take time. in game stats, probably years. unfortunately
the mystara line was cut before any real improvements were made. it would have
been interesting to see what tsr had in store. i doubt they were ready to kill
thyatis off. change it maybe but not kill it off.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:29:37 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
>
> I think a purely generic product wouldnt necessarily sell very well,
(Baba
> Yagas hut is a notable exception - but thats Baba Yaga! Everyone would
want
> that!)
>
Btw, I loved revisiting that. Imagine the shock of folks who had gone
through the one in Dragon 83, only to find out that everything they
remembered had changed when they got draged back in again. . .
.Muhahahahaha!
In my excited response I completely ignored the "generic" aspect of the
request, btw. For which I appologize.
"Generic" stuff does tend, usually, to have a bland, "lowest common
denominator" feel to it (as I said, usually). One way to "re-introduce"
Mystara stuff to the main line would be to include more Mystara-related
characters, monsters, plotlines etc. to the Planescape setting (drop in
characters from Mystara or whatever). However, I know that the whole idea
of putting Mystara in the AD&D planar multiverse is very controversial (to
say the least), so I'm not sure. . .
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:45:06 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - War Machine
>
> ex.- look at that big bad army. on paper it looks formidable. but so did
the
> french army of ww2. or the italian navy of ww2. and yes even the united
states
> army (circa kasserine). on paper all were formidable. however, in
practice
> each showed its flaws. respectively tactical deployment, fuel, and troop
> quality and tactics.
>
That, IMO, highlights my only real problem with the War Machine rules as
they exist: armies that look great on paper *are* great, and tactics etc.
play a rather limited role (generally the "paper" BR is the most important,
followed [if unit strengths are close] by the random component).
As for the terrain factors, generally both sides will try to get every
possible bonus. If you've ever had a battle where two players fight each
other, you know what I mean: both will argue that they should be on high
ground, across the river, and that the other dude should be "the attacker"
so that they get optimal bonuses.
Short of turning it into a Battlesystem battle, I don't know of any
non-arbitrary way to fairly resolve such impasses. If anyone else does, I'd
be glad to hear them, because asside from this, I think the WarMach rules
are an eligant way of quickly resolving battles.
>
> well thyatis did (canon) and continues (net almanacs) to get nuked.
however,
> instead of this being the downward spiral this can also be the beginning
of
> brighter better days. thyatis is going through a recovery from major
defeats
> against alphatia and the thothians. most of thyatis's rebuilding was used
by
> the change of power between thincol and eusebius. once in power eusebius
began
> rebuilding. it does take time. in game stats, probably years.
unfortunately
> the mystara line was cut before any real improvements were made. it would
have
> been interesting to see what tsr had in store. i doubt they were ready to
kill
> thyatis off. change it maybe but not kill it off.
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:57:56 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
> > Now I know more of you have opinions on this than the few who have
> > responded...so RESPOND!!!!!!!
To all those who completely discard the notion of putting out wider-appeal-products
with blurbs to specific settings...
First off, I will compile the nays along with the yeas honorably so never fear.
Second, let me just make one suggestion...when The Fearsome Egg of Coot is finally
produced, wouldn't you like to see a mention of "Mystara's Blackmoor". I mean,
wouldn't reference to such a famous campaign only bring more gamers our way?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:00:59 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
In a message dated 98-07-07 19:26:28 EDT, you write:
<< Hmmmn. . .I don't abhore the curse itself, per se (kind of symbolic:
Thincol spends his strength protecting the known world from ruthless
agression, is weakened, cursed and betrayed by his ungrateful friends, and
left to die, abandoned.)
The death itself was. . .unimaginative ("products of your imagination",
right). There is really only one "appropriate" way for someone like Thincol
to die. The below regards the final days of Michael IV the Paphlagonian
(Emperor of the Romans, 1034-41). Somewhat out of context, but imagine
Thincol in his place and you'll see how befitting it is: >>
[snip]
interesting scenario. but was not thincol's rise to power and life as emperor
not epic. wrath was thincol's swan song. his death may of been mishandled but
it does offer possibilities. imagine if you will that a story circulates that
thincol died heroically. insuring thyatis sovriegnty by foregoing his own
life. self sacrifice either being from a clause in the treaty with alphatia
and sealed with some spell to cause death. or the death could be portrayed as
a means to appease vanya to continue looking after the thyatian people.
anything works. doesn't even have to be beleivable to all. good propaganda
rarely is factual.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 15:07:12 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Actually the whole point of the thread between myself and Peter Adkinson, was
this...
I asked him if he had received the petition letter I sent to him. He responded
that he had, but that the market was not too favorable of late.
Check out the thread in the archive, it was fairly recent...you must have just
barely missed it. There was some interesting stuff there (at least I think it
was).
But in any case, he specifically requested some feedback on an idea they are
tossing around. With the market the way it is, this is the ONLY option for
bringing Mystara back at this time.
And I think it is not as bad as it seems. I say, let's bring her back in this way
now, and in the future, as Mystara helps to boost the gaming economy, we will have
a louder voice...
James Ruhland wrote:
> >
> > I think a purely generic product wouldnt necessarily sell very well,
> (Baba
> > Yagas hut is a notable exception - but thats Baba Yaga! Everyone would
> want
> > that!)
> >
> Btw, I loved revisiting that. Imagine the shock of folks who had gone
> through the one in Dragon 83, only to find out that everything they
> remembered had changed when they got draged back in again. . .
> .Muhahahahaha!
>
> In my excited response I completely ignored the "generic" aspect of the
> request, btw. For which I appologize.
> "Generic" stuff does tend, usually, to have a bland, "lowest common
> denominator" feel to it (as I said, usually). One way to "re-introduce"
> Mystara stuff to the main line would be to include more Mystara-related
> characters, monsters, plotlines etc. to the Planescape setting (drop in
> characters from Mystara or whatever). However, I know that the whole idea
> of putting Mystara in the AD&D planar multiverse is very controversial (to
> say the least), so I'm not sure. . .
>
> ***************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 15:08:42 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
Who is with me in making a presence at GenCon this year?
Come on guys! Let's get a game or two going and show everyone how exciting the
setting is!
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:01:47 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> then why focus on the optimists view of kw alphatia? thyatis has problems
so
> should alphatia. instead of opposing what i perceive the status of
alphatia to
> be you should be helping me root out those chinks in alphatia's armor for
> exploitation.
>
Already been doing *some* of that: IMO, Esterhold should be a hotbed of
rebellion, and if the NACE trys to hold onto it (which they probably would,
at least for awhile, like US in Vietnam), it would be a sinkhole for troops
(armies disapear against "barbarian" hordes: just ask the folks who fought
the Persians, the Parthians, the Huns, the Avars, the Turks, the Mongols. .
.)
IMO, also, there should be lots of nasty stuff eminating from the "Sea of
Alphatia," like the Bhemoth did (thus it further appalled me that the
undersea menace was visited upon Thyatis, when the logical choice layed
elsewhere. . . .)
In my opinion, if any area would be more likely to see tons of social
unrest it would be the Alphatian remnants. Once the "Metropolitan" domain,
and the threat of an overwhelming response which detered any potential
revolutionaries disapeared, the "time to strike" would be now (remember,
Alphatia is as slave-based a society as Thyatis is, and arguably offers
worse treatment and less oportunities for emancipation. Arguably). Only
Bellissaria (ok, "only" the vast majority of the KW Alphatia) is likely to
stay "quiet" (because that's what they like there), but even in Bellissaria
a quiet movement for change would spring up (why should we follow that
wizard dude? Just let me be on my freehold" kind of like the attitude of
homesteaders in the American West: me and my neighbors will take care of
ourselves, the rest of you bud out of our affairs. Who needs Wizards to run
our lives, anyhow.)
And, as someone mentioned, I have no idea why Thothia meekly joined the
NACE in the first place. Thothans were willing to be part of a great
Empire, when it was great, but why be one member of some petty council when
they can have the whole enchalada for themselves?
These, and more, are all potential problems, none of which have recieved
the attention they deserve.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:08:55 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal
In a message dated 98-07-07 23:04:35 EDT, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
<< You know, if you want to find someone who had a sucky death, look no
further than Torenal. He's the fellow who had not a magical breath in his
body, and neither did his children. Therefore he was relegated to the
position of wallflower of the court while his children had to stand the
taunts of Zandor while growing up. When he was not watching the love of
his life with the latest boytoy, he was out practicing for his "destined
encounter" with the Emperor of Thyatis. He was certain it would be his
blade that would fell the guy...
So what happens?
Struck down, as an afterthought, by some unknown assassin...>>
yep talk about anticlimatic. a hectre vs. achilles showdown was so obvious
between these two. instead torenal (who i used several times when i actively
gamed) was used as a tool to get the two empires into a war. imo this was not
needed as war was short in coming anyway. a definite waste of one of
alphatia's better npcs as well as a waste of a showdown.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:04:29 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
>
> First off, I will compile the nays along with the yeas honorably so never
fear.
>
> Second, let me just make one suggestion...when The Fearsome Egg of Coot
is finally
> produced, wouldn't you like to see a mention of "Mystara's Blackmoor".
>
There are only two places to put the Egg of Coot, and one is the old JG
setting, and the other is, of course, Mystara.
(I guess *some* arguments could be made that Greyhawk would also apply.
Greyhawkian Blackmoor never really seemed like Arneson's Blackmoor,
however, unlike the JG & Mystaran versions).
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:07:24 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
> thincol died heroically. insuring thyatis sovriegnty by foregoing his own
> life. self sacrifice either being from a clause in the treaty with
alphatia
> and sealed with some spell to cause death. or the death could be
portrayed as
> a means to appease vanya to continue looking after the thyatian people.
> anything works. doesn't even have to be beleivable to all. good
propaganda
> rarely is factual.
>
Yes, as I've been pointing out to Karameikophiles at every oportunity. 8-)
But, to be serious, I'm sure Eusibius (who seems to have a fine staff of
propagandists, if nothing else) would think to circulate something to that
effect.
It surprises (nay, shocks) me that it hadn't been done.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:18:21 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
In a message dated 98-07-08 14:16:30 EDT, you write:
<< A while back, Peter Adkinson asked me to ask the list how they felt
about having TSR put out more "generic" material with blurbs on adapting
the material to specific settings (like Mystara). He wants me to
compile everyone's opinions and send it to him as a whole. Think of
this as participating in market research! The market is not very
supportive now for ANY game material. But if we can show strong support
in the initial stages here, I think it will reflect better on our
efforts as a whole. >>
the generic approach works. the way i see it we have to take any victory no
matter how small. i do want to restate that i feel that since the material
will be generic that mystaran names be used to identify npcs. this way a
definite mystara atmosphere is present while those not acquainted with mystara
are not affected. as mystaran fans we will see the mysataran use when a nation
is stated as being ruled by king stefan karameikos or king ericall. non
mystaran gamers are going to change the names anyway to better fit their own
preferred setting. it is a reversal of sorts where a mystaran gamer takes a
published module or dungeon advrenture and fits it to mystara.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:32:03 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - War Machine
In a message dated 98-07-08 15:06:35 EDT, you write:
<< That, IMO, highlights my only real problem with the War Machine rules as
they exist: armies that look great on paper *are* great, and tactics etc.
play a rather limited role (generally the "paper" BR is the most important,
followed [if unit strengths are close] by the random component).
As for the terrain factors, generally both sides will try to get every
possible bonus. If you've ever had a battle where two players fight each
other, you know what I mean: both will argue that they should be on high
ground, across the river, and that the other dude should be "the attacker"
so that they get optimal bonuses.
Short of turning it into a Battlesystem battle, I don't know of any
non-arbitrary way to fairly resolve such impasses. If anyone else does, I'd
be glad to hear them, because asside from this, I think the WarMach rules
are an eligant way of quickly resolving battles. >>
the first thing that comes to mind is to add BR modifiers based on logical
+/-s based on how a certain troop type fairs against another troop type. but
therein lays the trick. as is, war machine is a constantly changing series of
calculations to discover who wins. not quantum physics but time consuming
nonetheless. especially if the battles are close (no obvious victor) and
longrunning (recalculations). tactics are my way of running war machine. a
battle where the opening round sees not two forces going at it, but several
smaller battles being pitched. of course this complicates things for the dm
but makes for a more realistic battle.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 05:40:35 +1000
From: stan <shawn@leme.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - 1015 Almanac strikes back!
At 18:15 08 07 98 +0100, Michael K Jones wrote:
>'I take it this means that 1014 Almanac is available somewhere?'
>
>Sorry, old time Mystra fan, new comer here
The 1014 Almanac is also available from the following site
>> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037
Or, either almanac can be found, rendered in all html glory
from http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
stan
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
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Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 12:53:54 -0700
From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" <strawberry@jamm.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
I would certainly appreciate seeing a "Mystara" module writen and
marketed in a "generic" style with extensive converstion suggestions for
all TSR worlds. In fact, to be completely honest, I prefer 'generic'
modules over 'specific' ones because I never put anything where it is
'supposed to go' (not even 'official Mystara modules' go where they suggest
they should go...). Thus, the more specific a module is to start with, the
more work I end up having to do... ;-).
At 03:18 PM 7/8/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote:
>[...]
>i do want to restate that i feel that since the material
>will be generic that mystaran names be used to identify npcs. this way a
>definite mystara atmosphere is present while those not acquainted with
mystara
>are not affected. as mystaran fans we will see the mysataran use when a
nation
>is stated as being ruled by king stefan karameikos or king ericall. non
>mystaran gamers are going to change the names anyway to better fit their own
>preferred setting. it is a reversal of sorts where a mystaran gamer takes a
>published module or dungeon advrenture and fits it to mystara.
I also tend to agree with Alex's above comment -- the idea of using some
Mystaran names/monsters/concepts in the module would be a great way for TSR
to test the 'Mystaran Waters' without really committing to much of
themselves that way. As long as /WE/ know it's "Really" a Mystaran
adventure, we're going to go out and buy it. And as long as its fairly
well designed as a generic module with a good set of relevant conversion
notes for all TSR worlds they should be able to pick up other gamers too.
So I guess my vote is "Go for it!" and let us know
- --
Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html
- -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:58:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
>
> I would certainly appreciate seeing a "Mystara" module writen and
> marketed in a "generic" style with extensive converstion suggestions for
> all TSR worlds. In fact, to be completely honest, I prefer 'generic'
> modules over 'specific' ones because I never put anything where it is
> 'supposed to go'
>
Well, that's a good point. The dude (Alex, my one of my favorite Thy vs.
Alph sparing partners) who said that the module (or whatever) should have
Mystaran names/a Mystaran flavor (though "generic"), which can then be
altered by others (the way lots of "generic" stuff in the past had a FR or
Greyhawk "feel" to them which could then be infused, with some work, with
the proper feel for your own setting) also made an excellent point.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:28:41 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-08 15:19:15 EDT, you write:
<< Already been doing *some* of that: IMO, Esterhold should be a hotbed of
rebellion, and if the NACE trys to hold onto it (which they probably would,
at least for awhile, like US in Vietnam), it would be a sinkhole for troops
(armies disapear against "barbarian" hordes: just ask the folks who fought
the Persians, the Parthians, the Huns, the Avars, the Turks, the Mongols. .
.)>>
see the optimist veiw is not so well founded. the potential problems in
easterhold are hinted at in the pwas. i do not think the vietnam analogy
works. not in practice but in presentation. for vietnam the analogy would be
more like france wanting to keep its control, not the us wanting to stifle
communism. in short it should be more colony control than political.
but yes the jennites can be a meatgrinder for the alphatians. i think it was
kaviyd that proposed the idea of using the skothar barbarians to keep alphatia
attention eastward. let the alphatians have their coastal strongholds, but
never be able to conquer and hold the interior. keep jennite raids strong
enough so that alphatia has to address the problem.
<< IMO, also, there should be lots of nasty stuff eminating from the "Sea of
Alphatia," like the Bhemoth did (thus it further appalled me that the
undersea menace was visited upon Thyatis, when the logical choice layed
elsewhere. . . .)>>
but the behemeth is more centralized to the sea of dread. therefore nace is
out of its domain. but yes, things should be coming to the surface over there.
and will. trust me on that. the conflict between the thyatians and seafolk is
a means to solidify thyatian resolve. with alphatia deminished an enemy is
needed to keep the empire together. though not a threat to thyatis itself, the
twaeler are a visible sign that the thyatian borders are not secure. besides
the merfolk ar less a threat than the ylari that were assembling to wage war
on thyatis. thyatis got a lucky break by that portal being opened.
realistically, i'd like to see the war with the twaeler expand to other
nations.
<< In my opinion, if any area would be more likely to see tons of social
unrest it would be the Alphatian remnants. Once the "Metropolitan" domain,
and the threat of an overwhelming response which detered any potential
revolutionaries disapeared, the "time to strike" would be now (remember,
Alphatia is as slave-based a society as Thyatis is, and arguably offers
worse treatment and less oportunities for emancipation. Arguably). Only
Bellissaria (ok, "only" the vast majority of the KW Alphatia) is likely to
stay "quiet" (because that's what they like there), but even in Bellissaria
a quiet movement for change would spring up (why should we follow that
wizard dude? Just let me be on my freehold" kind of like the attitude of
homesteaders in the American West: me and my neighbors will take care of
ourselves, the rest of you bud out of our affairs. Who needs Wizards to run
our lives, anyhow.)>>
yep...social unrest should be one of the biggest threats to nace unity.
imagine the nonspellcasting populace's reactions when their own society is
affected by all those mages arriving with their mainland attitudes.
<< And, as someone mentioned, I have no idea why Thothia meekly joined the
NACE in the first place. Thothans were willing to be part of a great
Empire, when it was great, but why be one member of some petty council when
they can have the whole enchalada for themselves?>>
yes....thothia rightfully deserves a bigger piece of the nace pie. though
alphatian troops played a role in the opposition, the thothians bore the
brunt. perhaps the thothian move to be a member was based more on their
mindset than anything. the thothians see the alphatians as the only other
civilized race on mystara and allied with them. this mentality carried over
after the sinking. the alphatian powerbase changed but the alphatian race did
not.
<< These, and more, are all potential problems, none of which have recieved
the attention they deserve. >>
i think that oversight was partly due to a lack of interest in alphatia. as
mentioned, it is surprising how the feelings of alphatia has changed. i was
told once that alphatia was thinly represented on the net almanac team. this
representation has been addressed by the addition of contributors. of whom not
all are pro alphatian. we have some interesting things in the works.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:45:41 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> see the optimist veiw is not so well founded.
>
Except that these potential problems which I outline remained, and remain,
just that: potential, not actualized, problems. IMO, Alphatian Esterhold
gets the best of all possible treatment in the PWAs (a minor outbreak which
is soon forgotten, rather than a troublesome, lengthy upheaval).
> the potential problems in
> easterhold are hinted at in the pwas. i do not think the vietnam analogy
> works. not in practice but in presentation.
>
The only analogy I was trying to draw was the futile sinkhole nature (not a
geopolitical one). Your compairison is more apt on that score (I.E. I was
only making a point about the "meatgrinder", IMO the politics of the
situation would resemble your outline, though uniquely chaotic Alphatian
response to it would differ even from the French analogy).
>
> but the behemeth is more centralized to the sea of dread.
>
Right: they had him wander from the Sea of Alphatia, around the Isle of
Dawn, to the Sea of Dread. Why? A good excuse to never have him trouble the
Alphatians. . .
>
> yes....thothia rightfully deserves a bigger piece of the nace pie.
>
Why Thothia is even in the NACE pie is beyond me. IMO, they would have
Imperial pretentions of their own, and the Alphatian troops which joined
them would be given a choice of either being a part of that (which many
would accept, IMO, since many would have origins in Ekto & Trikelios, which
are largely Thothian-inhabited), or. . .
Thothia doesn't really need the NACE, IMO. Being a flunky of a true power
was one thing, being a flunky of NACE is another matter entirely. Perhaps
the civilized Alphatians should join Thothia this time might be their
attitude, rather than the other way around. Government by squabbling
council doesn't seem to fit the Thothian mindset, anyhow.
>
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:51:17 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> the merfolk ar less a threat than the ylari that were assembling to wage
war
> on thyatis. thyatis got a lucky break by that portal being opened.
> realistically, i'd like to see the war with the twaeler expand to other
> nations.
Of course, IMO, with my "New Model Thyatian Army" rather than the pathetic
Red Arrow units, it is Ylaruam that got the "lucky break". . .
A lot of these threads have their origin in prior my argumentation that
the "canon" Thyatian armies are not only too weak & unimaginatively
designed, but inapropriate for such a nation.
Which reminds me I should try to do Marine & Naval units sometime today,
if anyone is interested.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:56:35 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> realistically, i'd like to see the war with the twaeler expand to other
> nations.
>
Btw:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/music/Jaws.mid
I admit I've only skimmed a lot of the OL stuff; the Twaeler, where
exactly are they supposedly centered, and are they based on the "War Rafts
of Kron" undersea junk. Also, I didn't notice why they were particularly
interested in sinking Thyatian, as opposed to, say, Minrothadian or
Ierendian, ships. . . . .
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:23:39 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
- ---
>Already been doing *some* of that: IMO, Esterhold should be a hotbed of
>rebellion, and if the NACE trys to hold onto it (which they probably would,
>at least for awhile, like US in Vietnam), it would be a sinkhole for troops
>(armies disapear against "barbarian" hordes: just ask the folks who fought
>the Persians, the Parthians, the Huns, the Avars, the Turks, the Mongols. .
I think any rebellion in Esterhold could well be partially suppressed if
that democratic government is set up. Its not like Vietnam - there is no
North Vietnam to attack a divided nation - it sounds more like Northern
Ireland. As Alphatia is the vast, unbeatable empire, and with a lot of
people opting for peaceful democracy rather than violence, the situation
would probably simmer for years...
Cheerz
ROB
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #484
********************************
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:48:15 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-mystara-l@ using -f
From: (mystara-digest)
To: mystara-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: mystara-digest V1997 #485
Reply-To: mystara@mpgn.com
mystara-digest Wednesday, July 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 485
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
[au998@freenet.carleton.ca: [MYSTARA] - MML WORKING GROUPS v 2.0]
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:50:46 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-08 17:03:46 EDT, you write:
<< >
> see the optimist veiw is not so well founded.
>
Except that these potential problems which I outline remained, and remain,
just that: potential, not actualized, problems. IMO, Alphatian Esterhold
gets the best of all possible treatment in the PWAs (a minor outbreak which
is soon forgotten, rather than a troublesome, lengthy upheaval).>>
aye but the seed has been planted.
> the potential problems in
> easterhold are hinted at in the pwas. i do not think the vietnam analogy
> works. not in practice but in presentation.
>
The only analogy I was trying to draw was the futile sinkhole nature (not a
geopolitical one). Your compairison is more apt on that score (I.E. I was
only making a point about the "meatgrinder", IMO the politics of the
situation would resemble your outline, though uniquely chaotic Alphatian
response to it would differ even from the French analogy).>>
sorry man just had to nitpick.
>
> but the behemeth is more centralized to the sea of dread.
>
Right: they had him wander from the Sea of Alphatia, around the Isle of
Dawn, to the Sea of Dread. Why? A good excuse to never have him trouble the
Alphatians. . .>>
i have always used the big b as the same giant fish creature that so terrified
the milenians. so imc the big b usually roams more southern waters around
davania. these roamings are infrequent as the beast goes dormant alot. perhaps
the sinking of alphatia stirred it up.
>
> yes....thothia rightfully deserves a bigger piece of the nace pie.
>
Why Thothia is even in the NACE pie is beyond me. IMO, they would have
Imperial pretentions of their own, and the Alphatian troops which joined
them would be given a choice of either being a part of that (which many
would accept, IMO, since many would have origins in Ekto & Trikelios, which
are largely Thothian-inhabited), or. . .
Thothia doesn't really need the NACE, IMO. Being a flunky of a true power
was one thing, being a flunky of NACE is another matter entirely. Perhaps
the civilized Alphatians should join Thothia this time might be their
attitude, rather than the other way around. Government by squabbling
council doesn't seem to fit the Thothian mindset, anyhow. >>
but a council also preserves its sovereign nature and keeps its actual need
for council participation to a minimum. however, imc (if it ever gets
restarted and ventures past ac1001) i'd have thothia as having a great deal of
lobbying influence at council.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:35:01 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
At 20.20 07/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>
>I was just mentioned that the Mystaran "Land of the Free" is described as a
>plutocracy masquerading as a republic. Also, it has probably the most well
>defined class structure of any Mystaran culture. Fine if your Elite class,
>but the poor Copper masses lot in life isnt so hot.
Actually I think the Copper masses in Darokin live much better than the
poor people in Thyatis or Glantri.
> Also, its a sad fact of economics is that for every rich person there
>are many poor people. (Unless you reckon that Darokin can support "lap of
>luxury" living for their entire population). These poor Coppers are most
>likely very poor indeed.
Not poorer than Glantrian farmers, people from Thyatis' lowest class,
Karameikans of Traldaran birth...
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:29:52 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
At 22.16 06/07/98 -0400, Glen Sprigg wrote:
>An important point, too, is that Stefan really doesn't have a great
>understanding of the nature of evil, at least not in humans. He just didn't
>comprehend that Ludwig was pond scum and should have been disembowelled and
>torn to bits by wild horses thirty years ago.
And all of this sounds really incredible to me.
I once had a group of Karameikan PCs, they went to Fort Doom, saw what was
going on there and reported to Stefan. I guess my party was not the only
one to get there an report back to Stefan. So, why didn't he send there
someone to check what was going on?
And why no group of Karameikan PCs ever kidnapped Stefan and brought him to
Fort Doom, as the halfling did in Ac 1010? Everybody knew about Ludwig
evilness, but Stefan... now, this is unbelievable.
- --------------
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brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:35:01 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
At 20.20 07/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>
>I was just mentioned that the Mystaran "Land of the Free" is described as a
>plutocracy masquerading as a republic. Also, it has probably the most well
>defined class structure of any Mystaran culture. Fine if your Elite class,
>but the poor Copper masses lot in life isnt so hot.
Actually I think the Copper masses in Darokin live much better than the
poor people in Thyatis or Glantri.
> Also, its a sad fact of economics is that for every rich person there
>are many poor people. (Unless you reckon that Darokin can support "lap of
>luxury" living for their entire population). These poor Coppers are most
>likely very poor indeed.
Not poorer than Glantrian farmers, people from Thyatis' lowest class,
Karameikans of Traldaran birth...
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:55:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
. .
>
>
> I think any rebellion in Esterhold could well be partially suppressed if
> that democratic government is set up.
>
What Democratic government? In a land that is 80% slave, the slaves would
vote to keep their Alphatian opressors in power if they got the vote?
Please send me some of what you've been smoking.
> Its not like Vietnam - there is no
> North Vietnam to attack a divided nation - it sounds more like Northern
> Ireland.
>
The Jennites in Skothia, if you haven't forgotten.
> As Alphatia is the vast, unbeatable empire, and with a lot of
> people opting for peaceful democracy rather than violence, the situation
> would probably simmer for years...
>
Peaceful Democracy? The Alphatian Empire? That goes against their entire
caste-based social order, I hope you realize
(Mage--Spellcaster---Wog---Slave).
.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:03:25 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-08 17:11:58 EDT, you write:
<< > the merfolk ar less a threat than the ylari that were assembling to wage
war
> on thyatis. thyatis got a lucky break by that portal being opened.
> realistically, i'd like to see the war with the twaeler expand to other
> nations.
<< Of course, IMO, with my "New Model Thyatian Army" rather than the pathetic
Red Arrow units, it is Ylaruam that got the "lucky break". . .>>
i meant war in general and its affects on a weakened economy. better to fight
the twaeler than fight on one's own soil. with the naval forces tied up with
the twaeler, the ylari navy would have a definite advantage. you could also
toss in the old "fighting on two fronts" cliche.
<<A lot of these threads have their origin in prior my argumentation that
the "canon" Thyatian armies are not only too weak & unimaginatively
designed, but inapropriate for such a nation.>>
yep the portrayals in Legions of Thyatis are much better than those in the
pwas. i checked your out and i do like the organization and naming much
better. i had decided to do a reorganization myself after thyatis had killed
off minrothad in my operation hydra.
<< Which reminds me I should try to do Marine & Naval units sometime today,
if anyone is interested. >>
do not forget the retebius air fleet.
</PRE></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:06:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> i have always used the big b as the same giant fish creature that so
terrified
> the milenians. so imc the big b usually roams more southern waters around
> davania. these roamings are infrequent as the beast goes dormant alot.
perhaps
> the sinking of alphatia stirred it up.
>
That's a very interesting interpretation. I like it. It makes a lot of
sense, put that way it also makes sense why the Big 'B' would swim back to
his ol' stomping grounds.
>
> but a council also preserves its sovereign nature and keeps its actual
need
> for council participation to a minimum. however, imc (if it ever gets
> restarted and ventures past ac1001) i'd have thothia as having a great
deal of
> lobbying influence at council.
>
IMC, there isn't much of a council as such, outside Bellissaria & Aquas.
The PWAs implied that Thothia was about to begin a campaign of imperialism
on it's own behalf (of course, the PWAs also had Thothia "meekly
submitting" to the New Alphatian Order eventually). IMO, I always saw this
as more intriguing in the long run anyhow. Three "power blocks" rather than
two.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:25:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
>Who is with me in making a presence at GenCon this year?
>
>Come on guys! Let's get a game or two going and show everyone how exciting the
>setting is!
This is a great idea, but unfortunately to go to GenCon I'll have to fork
out several hundred dollars, and with the exchange rate being what it is,
I'm afraid I'll have to pass for now... :-(
Maybe next year....
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:33:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Alex said:
>the generic approach works. the way i see it we have to take any victory no
>matter how small. i do want to restate that i feel that since the material
>will be generic that mystaran names be used to identify npcs. this way a
>definite mystara atmosphere is present while those not acquainted with mystara
>are not affected. as mystaran fans we will see the mysataran use when a nation
>is stated as being ruled by king stefan karameikos or king ericall. non
>mystaran gamers are going to change the names anyway to better fit their own
>preferred setting. it is a reversal of sorts where a mystaran gamer takes a
>published module or dungeon advrenture and fits it to mystara.
I'm in total agreement with Alex. Let's get whatever victories we can
this round (so that next round we can storm the gates and conquer once
again from a stronger starting position), and I would prefer to see
Mystaran names (people and places - like town names and so on) be used.
Most DMs do tweak things one way or another, and if a product just says
"AD&D", with no FR, RL, BR, or whatever subtitle, then they'll be sure to
do this, because generic products scream "Modify me to your world."
It would actually save TSR/WotC a lot of work, IMO, if they used Mystaran
names and so on - saves time in coming up with new ones, and it does some
marketing to Mystara fans for them.
So, count me in for a generic product that we can use for Mystara.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 17:40:18 -0500
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <galwylin@airnet.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Daly wrote:
>
> To all those who completely discard the notion of putting out wider-appeal-products
> with blurbs to specific settings...
>
> First off, I will compile the nays along with the yeas honorably so never fear.
I've thought about this since you mentioned it and I guess I'd vote
against this idea. Not because I don't want Mystara mentioned in
generic supplements. I just don't buy things label as generic. In
fact, I've really don't understand the idea of why it would appeal to a
wider audience. The name of a city or nation is going to be used.
What's the difference if its attached to a specific setting? Mirros,
Waterdeep or Generic City A. Personally, I'd rather everything was
campaign specific including rulebooks. The idea seems to work for White
Wolf. Generic just sounds rather bland. I can't see how this is
supposed to help Mystara at all. How do you bring in the character of
Glantri into that (just to name one nation)? And if the 'generic'
product doesn't do that then Mystara is going to depend on old material
for its voice and flavor to ever be sampled. That's exactly where we
are now. Of all the campaign settings only the Realms, Greyhawk and
Mystara are the most similar. Think about how they're similar.
Karameikos haters aren't going to be happy. I seriously doubt that any
new fans to Mystara will be gained from such products. I just prefer
brand names. Out of curiosity, they're not thinking of including the
Realms in on this idea, are they?
> Second, let me just make one suggestion...when The Fearsome Egg of Coot is finally
> produced, wouldn't you like to see a mention of "Mystara's Blackmoor". I mean,
> wouldn't reference to such a famous campaign only bring more gamers our way?
I've seen talk of this egg... on the Greyhawk list. Looks like a
contest brewing.
- --
This has been a Galwylin® Production
The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/)
galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:45:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Even though Alphatia's not my specialty for the Almanac, let me express
my support for some skirmishes in Esterhold this year. Just something to
keep the Alphatians off balance. Maybe the free Jennites out east enter
Esterhold, free a large number of slaves (say, a few hundred or so) and
take them back with them. Maybe some salves escape to the central
highlands of Esterhold, which are not inhabited by the Alphatians. There
they organize into a guerrilla force.
In the long run, I still think Verdan should be attacked, since it's so
close to the free Jennites' lands - maybe outlying villages get burned -
enough to cause some concern. As for the three isolated ports - they
should be faced with the threat of raids, too, but not conquered. Maybe
they have to fight off the Jennites in a fierce battle, but raise the
pressure on them, anyway.
At the very least, the chaos following the sinking should encourage the
free Jennites to show a bit more solidarity.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:46:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
>A while back, Peter Adkinson asked me to ask the list how they felt
>about having TSR put out more "generic" material with blurbs on adapting
>the material to specific settings (like Mystara). He wants me to
>compile everyone's opinions and send it to him as a whole. Think of
>this as participating in market research! The market is not very
>supportive now for ANY game material. But if we can show strong support
>in the initial stages here, I think it will reflect better on our
>efforts as a whole.
>
>Now I know more of you have opinions on this than the few who have
>responded...so RESPOND!!!!!!!
>
Well, it's a start...I say go for it; at least we'll get the Mystaran name
back in print. Then more people will realize what an awesome non-Realms
setting this is, and the masses shall clamor to have it returned to print.
Glen
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:09:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: [au998@freenet.carleton.ca: [MYSTARA] - MML WORKING GROUPS v 2.0]
The Working Groups of the Mystara Mailing List (v 2.0)
compiled by Geoff Gander, with help from Hervé Musseau, Fabrizio Paoli,
and Marco Dalmonte
Mystaran Net Almanac
Continuing where the Poor Wizard's Almanacs and Joshuan's Almanac left
off, a small group of dedicated Mystara fans has kept the idea of this
publication alive. Each year an issue is released, detailling the
various events that happen in Mystara for a given year, as well as
providing details on new nations, and important developments. If you
wish to take part in this production, feel free to contact the following
people for more information:
Alphatian Sea: Herve Musseau (herve@hotmail.com)
Hollow World: Thorfinn Tait (Rathanos@velvia.demon.co.uk), or
Herve Musseau
Isle of Dawn: Andrew Theisen (jsmill@imap1.asu.edu),
or Herve Musseau
Jungle Coast: Geoff Gander (ganderg@tc.gc.ca)
Norwold: Marco Dalmonte (mdalmonte@hotmail.com),
or Herve
Musseau
Wendar/Denagoth: Marco Dalmonte (mdalmonte@hotmail.com)
Old World: Michael Roy (mroy@cyberus.ca)
(Heldannic Knights): Geoff Gander (ganderg@tc.gc.ca)
(Shadow Elves): Fabrizio Paoli (brizio@lunet.it)
(Goblinoids): Andrew Theisen (jsmill@imap1.asu.edu)
(Atruaghin): Andrew Theisen (jsmill@imap1.asu.edu)
Savage Coast: Michael Roy (mroy@cyberus.ca)
(City-States): Fabrizio Paoli(brizio@lunet.it)
(Hule): Fabrizio Paoli (brizio@lunet.it)
(Yavdlom): Fabrizio Paoli (brizio@lunet.it) and
Geoff Gander (ganderg@tc.gc.ca)
(Gombar/Suma'a) Shawn Stanley (shawn@leme.anu.edu.au)
Economica Fabrizio Paoli (brizio@lunet.it)
MOrient Project
Although the continent of Brun on Mystara has received a lot of detail,
whole sections of this world have not. This group is developing
oriental cultures, with a distinctly Mystaran flavour, for the
mysterious continent of Skothar, the great eastern continent. If you
want to participate in developing new cultures and ideas that break the
stereotypes, why not contact Joe Duncan (jduncan2@chat.carleton.ca)?
NPC Gallery
Tired of reusing the same old NPCs? Ever wish you had a vast collection
of NPCs available at your fingertips to add extra depth to your
campaign? Why not contact Jenni Merrifield (strawberry@jamm.com)? She
has a collection of various NPCs, from all walks of life, that you can
easily insert in your own campaigns. All of these have been contributed
by fellow list members. If you have some NPCs of your own you'd like to
share, why not send them to her?
Cynidicea Working Group
B4 - The Lost City. This classic adventure details the lost,
underground city of Cynidicea, a realm of bizarre inhabitants and fierce
otherworldly beings. The members of this group feel that much more can
be had from this scenario than what is already written, and they are
working to both add extra details, and expand the adventure into a
full-scale campaign setting for all levels of play. Interested? Email
Geoff Gander (au998@freenet.carleton.ca) for more information.
SaveMystara Working Group
Although Mystara products are no longer produced by TSR, some members of
this list are dedicated to bringing it back. Using petitions,
home-written adventures to be published by the RPGA, and other means,
these people are diligently trying to get our favourite campaign world
published once again. Want to join in on the action? We can always use
an extra hand! Contact Jeff Daly (jdaly@friend.ly.net) for more
information.
Alphatian Gazetteers
Alphatia, empire of intrigue and mystery. In all of TSR's official
products concerning this vast empire, very little information was
actually given concerning what goes on in the various kingdoms that
comprise this great empire, or even what these kingdoms are like. This
group is trying to change this by writing up short gazetteers describing
the various cities of each of these kingdoms, major political players,
as well as a general feel for what each of these realms is like.
There's plenty of room for your imagination here, and there is so much
left to do! Contact Jeff Daly (jdaly@friend.ly.net) or Geoff Gander
(au998@freenet.carleton.ca) for more information.
Ancient Mystara
Although "official" sources say the first great civilization was
Blackmoor, some sages realize that this is not so. Great empires and
heroes flourished, and fell, in a time long before the men of Blackmoor
placed stone upon stone. What remains of these ancient realms today? Do
the obsidian spires of ancient Y'hog still rise high, somewhere beneath
the seas, do the men of fabled Lhomarr still live upon this world, and
what of the great artifacts of yore that were lost in those ancient
times? If you are interested in adding more detail to a Mystara of long
ago, or of creating remnants of that time for the present day, send an
email to Geoff Gander (au998@freenet.carleton.ca), Matt Levy
(mlevy@orion.acu.edu), or Mystaros (mystaros@aol.com).
Davania Team
Davania, the forgotten continent. This phrase no longer applies, as
year by year more explorers bravely head south, probing deeper into
forgotten jungles and hellish deserts, uncovering remnants of empires
long dead, and those still living. These are realms beyond the
knowledge of even the brightest sages, different from those of the
"Known World." If you are interested in developing new cultures or
ideas for this fascinating continent, contact Geoff Gander
(au998@freenet.carleton.ca) for more information.
Underocean
What lurks under the seas of Mystara? Far more than a realm of the
deeps, Underocean is home to a vast range of interesting races and
cultures. Witness the turmoil as the kingdoms of the merrow and the
tritons fight off insidious hordes of devilfish, observe the aquatic
elves fashion wonders only dreamed of by land swellers. While the lands
of Mystara are vast, those lying under the sea are still greater. Join
Aaron Nowack (anowack@juno.com) as he plumbs the depths on the world.
If you are interested in helping out, drop him an email...
Mystaraspace Project
Does Mystara have its own Green Men? This group of discussion is trying
to find out! Join it to flesh out the planets and the secrets of
Mystara's Voidspace, linking it with other canonical and new sources for
both Mystara and other TSR settings. Knowledge of Spelljammer is good
but not required: what you should bring here is Fantasy and Unlimited
Imagination! Contact Marco Dalmonte (mdalmonte@hotmail.com).
Cyclopedia Mystara
The goal is to develop a comprehensive encyclopedia of the world,
consisting of articles indexed alphabetically and topically. Topics
will range from continents and empires down to villages, NPCs, and magic
items. Hopefully much of the existing information created by the MML
can be incorporated, and the encyclopedia will also link to individual
websites to provide contrasting viewpoints on various subjects.
Finally, it will provide extensive references to canon material
published by TSR, as well as fan-created articles, so will serve as a
one-stop index for all information related to a given topic. We have
also been discussing the possibility of "donating" the finished work to
TSR for reference and possible inclusion in future Mystara products.
We'd appreciate your discussion here on the list; we are still working
out the format, content, and legal details. Also if anyone wants to
volunteer to coordinate a particular topic, or wants to contribute
articles, please contact Mike Harvey (bing@iccom.com).
Hollow World References
This group aims to provide additional detail on the various cultures of
the Hollow World, in the form of gazetteer reference documents. Basic
socio-cultural aspects of each people will be covered, as well as NPCs,
and other interesting information to aid the DM in fleshing out these
hitherto undetailled areas. If you are interested in contributing to
this group as a writer, or just helping out, contact Mischa Gelman
(megst19+@pitt.edu).
--
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
>I once had a group of Karameikan PCs, they went to Fort Doom, saw what was
>going on there and reported to Stefan. I guess my party was not the only
>one to get there an report back to Stefan. So, why didn't he send there
>someone to check what was going on?
>
Okay, here we go again...
Quote from GAZ1, pg. 14, 2nd column:
Reports of (Ludwig's) activities did reach the Duke, but Stefan was dealing
with similar reports from all over the duchy; most were so exaggerated that
they resembled the accurate descriptions emerging from Ludwig's territory,
so he assumed that they, too, were exaggerations.
>And why no group of Karameikan PCs ever kidnapped Stefan and brought him to
>Fort Doom, as the halfling did in Ac 1010? Everybody knew about Ludwig
>evilness, but Stefan... now, this is unbelievable.
>
Many Thyatians would probably have felt that the Traladarans who were
complaining were just trying to stir up trouble for 'one of their own.'
Some of them actively suppressed the Traladarans themselves, so they assumed
Ludwig was the same as them.
Oh, and no Karamekian in his right mind would kidnap his sovereign and
expect to get off lightly. That's called high treason, and the penalties
are severe. Besides, Stefan would be in danger while he was viewing the
Black Eagle Barony. No way is a Karamekian going to do something like that.
The hin were able to pull it off because they didn't have to face such
consequences.
And, once again, I shall point out this simple fact. In our own century,
terrible evils were propagated by a legitimate government, and the rest of
the world ignored or didn't believe the reports and stories they heard,
because they didn't believe such behavior was possible. In a medieval
society, where communications aren't anywhere near as advanced, the stories
coming from the Black Eagle Barony would be viewed in a similar light;
exaggeration and unthinkable.
Glen
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:23:17 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
In a message dated 7/7/98 12:44:25 AM, you wrote:
<<There are a whole bunch of other good sources, but most of them are rather
more academic type books, and this one has nice color plates for the fans
of Karameikos to look at ("oooh, pictures")
>>
Sir John Julius Norwich just penned a short version of his massive tome on
Byzantium in "The short history of Byzantium." and its a pretty good read for
Thyatis fans.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:01:43 -0400
From: "DJ Sahlas" <dsahla@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
>>Who is with me in making a presence at GenCon this year?
>>
>>Come on guys! Let's get a game or two going and show everyone how
exciting the
>>setting is!
>
>This is a great idea, but unfortunately to go to GenCon I'll have to fork
>out several hundred dollars, and with the exchange rate being what it is,
>I'm afraid I'll have to pass for now... :-(
Despite the exchange rate I'll be in California for a couple of weeks in
July / August. Where is Gen Con this year? I'm all for a Mystara table
(would also be neat to actually meet some of you guys). What do you say?
Jim Sahlas
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:17:35 -0400
From: "DJ Sahlas" <dsahla@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
> IMO, the world, magic, and events made those books IMMORTAL though. He
>gave a refreshing view of basically two totally foreign worlds and many
>creatures that were definitely new.
> I've often thought about incorporating Ur-Viles, Waynhim,
>Stonehelvennin, Woodhelvennin, Rohirri, Haruchai, Stone Giants, and the
>Blood Magic into my campaigns on Mystara. Actually, the Ranyhyn have become
>legends IMC, and I had a player take the OA and play a Bloodguard in one of
>my campaigns.
> How about the Desecration? Before I realized anything about Blackmoor
>being on Mystara (Long story), I had the Sind Desert as the place that
Kevin
>had enacted the spell in his battle with Lord Foul (The Master of Hule at
>that time in my gaming career).
For my part, I created a magic elven sword "Lomilialor" with some
characteristics of that type of "wood" from The Land. I got the idea when I
read about the wooden elven blades in The Elves of Alfheim gaz.
Jim Sahlas
P.S. I loved the Chronicles, and have read them twice. Donaldson is
apparently working on the next trilogy.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #485
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 486
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Bibliography
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
[MYSTARA] - Chronicles/Unbeliever & White Dwarf.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Hello Once Again!
[MYSTARA] - My take on Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello Once Again!
[MYSTARA] - Progeny
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
Re: [MYSTARA] - My take on Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:49:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/music/GOWEN.MID
The page has been updated, URL at:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/Military.html
Units added are two different reserve units (the Defenders, and the
Militia). The Defenders use a concept I'm rather fond of.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:49:59 -0400
From: "DJ Sahlas" <dsahla@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
>Sir John Julius Norwich just penned a short version of his massive tome on
>Byzantium in "The short history of Byzantium." and its a pretty good read
for
>Thyatis fans.
I simply have to respond that this is a phenomenal work. Anybody who is
into fantasy role-playing games will probably devour John Julius Norwich's
prose. I found the three volume history of Byzantium as gripping as the
Lord of the Rings.
This massive tome (divided into a trilogy for ease of carrying around)
is anything but dry history and provides a wealth of material for developing
Thyatis. Any fan of Mystara, in fact, every civilized human being, should
own a copy for reference.
(Is it just me, or is there an inordinate amount of fascination with
Byzantium among Mystaraphiles?)
Jim Sahlas
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:01:08 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
In a message dated 7/8/98 1:32:06 PM, you wrote:
<<Isidore aren't evil either.
>>
What?!?!?!?
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:00:16 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Bibliography
>
> Sir John Julius Norwich just penned a short version of his massive tome
on
> Byzantium in "The short history of Byzantium." and its a pretty good read
for
> Thyatis fans.
>
I don't happen to own that particular one, but I'd heartily recomend the
massive version (in three volumes):
Byzantium: The Early Centuries
Byzantium: The Apogee (which I've already quoted from)
and Byzantium: Decline and Fall
For "fictional" stuff you can't beat Harry Turtledove's various Videssos
books.
I've also mentioned, in passing, Warren Treadgold's:
Byzantine State Finances in the 8th and 9th Centuries
which is far and away the best source of info on the administrative "nuts
and bolts" of running a domain (taxation, expected income, staff &
expenses, etc) I've ever read. His
The Byzantine Revival
is also superb.
Their is a book by Hendy on the Byzantine economy, but I can't remember
the name right now, unfortunately.
For an extensive source on Byzantine military thinking, you can't beat:
The Strategicon
attributed to the Emperor Maurice. I use George T. Dennis' translation.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:02:14 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
>
> (Is it just me, or is there an inordinate amount of fascination with
> Byzantium among Mystaraphiles?)
>
Well, if their isn't, their ought to be, and in this case I use "ought" in
the philosophical sense; as in it's a moral imperitive. 8-)
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Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 02:13:34 -0500
From: mikkey@carrollsweb.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Chronicles/Unbeliever & White Dwarf.
I would like to now what White Dwarves issues, I have most of them & would
like to look them up!!
>Well actually I loved the world hated the hero, by the way if any one has
access
>to the old White Dwarves, back when they actually did gaming, they had an
article
>on the books and had ad&d stats for the various creatures, and class. Can't
>remember the number of the top of my head.Ken
Yours for deeper & better dungeons,
Thanks in advance,
Michael Mcknab
mikkey@carrollsweb.com
P.S. If you or anyone you know has information on
RPGA Network Slipcases please put me in contact with
them or them with me!! Also looking for a 10th
Annniversary AD&D collectors set that came in it's
own stylized slipcase. Thanks.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:56 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-08 09:13:00 EDT, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
> Your answer is very intriguing...and probably one that an actual American
> would never come up with. Don't misinterprate this to mean "not true",
rather I
> think it is a very insightful idea...
Well -- since I am an American I can assure you that at least one "actual
American" did come up with that idea....
> I would put forth love for Alphatia possibly being related to the "
> individuality" of its people. The freedom...
Yes, I can see that point. There is much of the United States in both
empires. But if we go by the information given in DotE, Alphatia seemed
to reflect the aspects of this country that I like least (such as racism
and a narrow focus on things that most of the people have little talent
for -- substitute "sports" for "magic" and you will see what I mean),
while Thyatis was more of a "land of opportunity". In fact, one thing that
really saddened me about WotI and the PWAs was the way that Thyatis
lost so much of its diversity. Of course, even this could be salvaged if
Thyatis contained sizable minorities of Ochaleans and Nuari who decided
to stay in Thyatis even after their home countries seceded....
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:58 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal
I would certainly agree that Torenal should have been given a more appropriate
death than a simple assassination. In my own campaign he fell in battle
against the Tanagoro. This, of course, led his son Ericall to devote most
of his "spare" time to making war on the people who killed his father. I did
have an ulterior motive in this development -- since one of the PCs had been
betrothed to him when she was a small child and I knew that the player of
that PC had a definite distaste for warfare, I had set things up so that she
would devote her uttermost efforts to dissuading him from pursuing his
quest for vengeance. The campaign never did progress far enough for this
aspect to be developed, but it did at least last long enough for her to meet
Ericall -- the result of that meeting was that she developed a liking for
Ericall
but retained her hatred of Eriadna for pressuring her uncle into betrothing
her
to her son.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:13:01 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-08 17:12:24 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> Of course, IMO, with my "New Model Thyatian Army" rather than the pathetic
> Red Arrow units, it is Ylaruam that got the "lucky break". . .
> A lot of these threads have their origin in prior my argumentation that
> the "canon" Thyatian armies are not only too weak & unimaginatively
> designed, but inapropriate for such a nation.
If you are referring to the military units assigned to Thyatis in module X10,
there is a very simple explanation -- those were the units that they were
willing to commit to save Darokin from Hule, not the units that they were
holding back for their own defense. We really should assume that the
Master of Hule would not even consider invading Thyatis itself.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:13:03 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
In a message dated 98-07-08 10:06:14 EDT, borealis@cois.on.ca writes:
> Innocenti di Malapietra. During WotI, Alphaks dropped a bunch of high-level
> mages on a party in Glantri. They killed everyone but Malapietra. Then
the
> crater hit, wiping out Caurenze. So now there's one guy sitting in a
ruined
> castle who uses a wand of disintegration on anything that comes within
> range, because he knows they're coming to kill him.
Ah, that explains it. I had overlooked him because in the PWA era he was
no longer considered a Prince of Glantri.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:53 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
Of course there is one thing that is very important to note about Darokin --
given their indefensible borders, it is vitally important that they get along
with as many of their neighbors as possible and that they keep the
"Coppers" (the poorest citizens) happy enough that they do not stir up
any internal problems. This forces the rich and powerful in that country
to act "good" regardless of their actual intentions.
But if you really want to stir up some chaos in the Known World -- don't
bother with breaking down order in Glantri or Thyatis -- just create a set
of events that result in the complete collapse of the government of
Darokin. The chaos that results in this case would soon spread to
every nation of the Known World.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:54 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
In a message dated 98-07-08 18:52:57 EDT, galwylin@airnet.net writes:
> I've seen talk of this egg... on the Greyhawk list. Looks like a
> contest brewing.
I can see it now -- the brave adventurers from Mystara band together
and invade Greyhawk to recover that ancient artifact the Egg of Coot
and return it to its rightful place -- that is, if they can agree on where
Blackmoor was once they return home....
But the people of Oerth will know only that the true descendants of
Blackmoor took that artifact back to where it belonged.... ;)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:12:51 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life.
There is another possibility for preserving the relative number of
spellcasters
in Alphatia, assuming that access to and from the Hollow World has not been
sealed off. We could assume that the Alphatians have developed a fairly
simple spell for detecting magical or clerical talent. They would then try
to train them in the arcane arts, with most of them failing at first.
Every few years the Alphatians would round up those of their young people
who showed talent but who could not be trained in the Hollow World, put
them on a skyship, and take them to the outer world for a year or two.
Once there they could train to become 1st level Priests or Wizards. At
that point they could return to the Hollow World and advance normally in
their classes.
But I must admit that I rather like the idea of the Hollow World challenging
the Alphatians in ways that drive them to change despite the Spell of
Preservation -- or even because of its inherent contradictions. Anyway,
I do get the distinct impression that the events of the early 11th century
AC have weakened that Spell of Preservation, and that it will continue to
weaken as time goes by.
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:28:21 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> If you are referring to the military units assigned to Thyatis in module
X10,
> there is a very simple explanation -- those were the units that they were
> willing to commit to save Darokin from Hule, not the units that they were
> holding back for their own defense.
>
Agree wholeheartedly, which is why I was shocked, appalled, and dismayed to
see these form the "best" units available to Thyatis in the PWAs.
> We really should assume that the
> Master of Hule would not even consider invading Thyatis itself.
>
It says that much in the module itself somewhere (*dig dig dig* Hmmn. . .on
second thought, I think that remark was in a Dragon mag. VPA or KWG
article, but I'm to lazy to go look for it.)
Now, before a certain Archmage points out that I won't recieve the same
respect if it comes to that, I'd just like to say: yes, I know. . . .
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:34:15 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
>
> I can see it now -- the brave adventurers from Mystara band together
> and invade Greyhawk to recover that ancient artifact the Egg of Coot
> and return it to its rightful place -- that is, if they can agree on
where
> Blackmoor was once they return home....
>
IIRC, the "Egg of Coot" was a place, not an artifact (unless they changed
things). The main (and very outlandish) villians of the campaign were based
out of the Egg (EGG?)
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Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:35:29 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
> For my part, I created a magic elven sword "Lomilialor" with some
>characteristics of that type of "wood" from The Land. I got the idea when
I
>read about the wooden elven blades in The Elves of Alfheim gaz.
> Jim Sahlas
> P.S. I loved the Chronicles, and have read them twice. Donaldson is
>apparently working on the next trilogy.
I'd like to see some stats on that. Do you use that wood on Mystara ?
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:36:00 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> I think any rebellion in Esterhold could well be partially suppressed if
>> that democratic government is set up.
>>
>What Democratic government? In a land that is 80% slave, the slaves would
>vote to keep their Alphatian opressors in power if they got the vote?
> Please send me some of what you've been smoking.
As I recall, in the latest Net Almanac whats his name (Favian Vern???) was
going to set up a democratic government. (The only one in Mystara bar
Leeha). And from that interview with Broderick, the Alphatians are going to
let him go ahead with it.
>> Its not like Vietnam - there is no
>> North Vietnam to attack a divided nation - it sounds more like Northern
>> Ireland.
>>
>The Jennites in Skothia, if you haven't forgotten.
Southern Ireland??? The difference is that South Vietnam was a corrupt
government despised by all who lived there. The US were fighting both South
Vietnamese insurgents (VC) and North Vietnam (NVA).
However, in Esterhold there will be (is?) a democratic government, which
will pacify the Jennites living there (I also think they will be made free
citizens by Favian Vern) and prevent all out guerrilla war, like in Vietnam.
Instead there will be random acts of violence from various factions,
(loyalist paramilitaries, rebel paramilitaries) from Jennites, while the
Alphatian Army remains in control. The rest of the Jennite lands would
probably largely stay out of it directly, and rather offer support to
whichever side took their fancy. And maybe even certain groups of
Alphatians would support loyalist Jennites undercover as well.
Voila! Northern Ireland!
>> As Alphatia is the vast, unbeatable empire, and with a lot of
>> people opting for peaceful democracy rather than violence, the situation
>> would probably simmer for years...
>>
>Peaceful Democracy? The Alphatian Empire? That goes against their entire
>caste-based social order, I hope you realize
>(Mage--Spellcaster---Wog---Slave).
I wasnt talking about the Empire being democratic. The NACE is a
republic/confederation of semi autonomous states. It so happens that the
area the Jennites live in is probably going to be a democracy. So, at least
from the Jennites point of view - you have democracy. They have a
representative speaking for them at the highest levels of Alphatian
government, and their own local government will be democratic.
OK - so the reps from other areas of the Empire arent there democratically,
but that doesnt really affect the Jennites.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:33:09 -0500
From: Brunciak <brunciak@erols.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Hello Once Again!
Hello Fellow Mystrarans!
I'm sorry I haven't sent a post to the list for at least a month but
when you put in about 70 hours between work and school you really don't
have any time. Now that summer's here, it's time to get back to Mystara
(after reading a few thousand e-mails!).
First, I want to apologize to the Writers' Group I'm in and to say that
I'm going to start to getting things into gear for the Fleamish City.
Secondly, I've been reading about Peter Adkinson's thoughts on Mystara
and have also read the article on the various working groups (that's a
really handy item Geoff). Anyway, I was wondering if someone could fill
me in on how the Mystaran Revival Campaign is doing.
And last, but not least, you'll be hearing a great deal more from me,
especially since I've heard mention of Thyatis and Rome and a few have
decided to bash a certain small but powerful kingdom of the Known World
that begins with a K, ends with an S, and in the middle is arameiko :^)
Bob
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 04:28:48 -0500
From: Brunciak <brunciak@erols.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - My take on Karameikos
Many of you have recently began to openly attack Karameikos. I find
that perfectly find and am not bothered by it at all even though
Karameikos is one of my favorite places in Mystara.
Some of the reasons presented on why people dislike Karamekos got me
thinking. A few have said that one of the reasons that they don't like
Karameikos is because everything seems to happen there and it gets so
much attention. Well...
For one thing, Karameikos is where much of Mystara began in the early
80's. That's a pretty big factor.
Another reason is that Karameikos is a land of opportunity. It's not
like Darokin, though, because Karameikos is new. There is so much in the
way of growth and advancement that it is really incredible. I am going
to compare Karameikos with the United States of around 1800 (and this is
the only way they are related). Both are relatively young nations.
They are places in which new socities are being formed- in the US the
American culture was created and in Karameikos the Karameikan culture is
currenlty forming. There is also that pioneer atmosphere in Karameikos
which makes it exciting and it is unique to that country.
My final examples are these-the building of the Karameikan School of
Magecraft, the Duke's er King's tour of the nation, the construction of
an Art Museum, a hardball team, etc., etc, etc. All of these things
could happen only in Karameikos because they fit into Karameikan culture
and also because every other nation which could have these things
already does. Glantri doesn't need another museum and certainly not
another magic school. It would be a bit hard fetched to see a Ylari
hardball team. See what I mean? Karameikos was the untouched and
unexplored region right in the middle of the Known World and so now
there is just so much to do there, especially since this is D&D we're
talking about! :)
Bob
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:48:13 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>>> I think any rebellion in Esterhold could well be partially suppressed if
>>> that democratic government is set up.
>>>
>>What Democratic government? In a land that is 80% slave, the slaves would
>>vote to keep their Alphatian opressors in power if they got the vote?
>> Please send me some of what you've been smoking.
Oh - I almost forgot. According to the NACE constitution a member cannot
simply leave on its own. If they tried, there would be a civil war
(secession - like in America).
These little niceties of government are what cause trouble spots on wars in
the first place! Besides, it's cool to have them in D+D.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:08:23 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!!!
I believe it is still in Milwaukee. Can someone correct me?
DJ Sahlas wrote:
> >>Who is with me in making a presence at GenCon this year?
> >>
> >>Come on guys! Let's get a game or two going and show everyone how
> exciting the
> >>setting is!
> >
> >This is a great idea, but unfortunately to go to GenCon I'll have to fork
> >out several hundred dollars, and with the exchange rate being what it is,
> >I'm afraid I'll have to pass for now... :-(
>
> Despite the exchange rate I'll be in California for a couple of weeks in
> July / August. Where is Gen Con this year? I'm all for a Mystara table
> (would also be neat to actually meet some of you guys). What do you say?
>
> Jim Sahlas
>
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:12:47 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hello Once Again!
Brunciak wrote:
> Hello Fellow Mystrarans!
>
> I'm sorry I haven't sent a post to the list for at least a month but
> when you put in about 70 hours between work and school you really don't
> have any time. Now that summer's here, it's time to get back to Mystara
> (after reading a few thousand e-mails!).
Great to have you back!
>
>
> First, I want to apologize to the Writers' Group I'm in and to say that
> I'm going to start to getting things into gear for the Fleamish City.
We've been wondering what has happened to old Group3...after such an excellent
promising start, you guys all seemed to disappear. I can't wait to see how
your project comes along!
>
>
> Secondly, I've been reading about Peter Adkinson's thoughts on Mystara
> and have also read the article on the various working groups (that's a
> really handy item Geoff). Anyway, I was wondering if someone could fill
> me in on how the Mystaran Revival Campaign is doing.
Oh let's see...Group4 has come alive with a brand new cast of writers...they
show alot of promise. Personally I have sent my first submission off to
Polyhedron and am busy working on my next. There are quite a few other writers
in Group2 who are at various stages in completing their submissions. I have
not heard much from Group1 lately...
>
>
> And last, but not least, you'll be hearing a great deal more from me,
> especially since I've heard mention of Thyatis and Rome and a few have
> decided to bash a certain small but powerful kingdom of the Known World
> that begins with a K, ends with an S, and in the middle is arameiko :^)
Hey, not me man. I always liked Stephan...
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:33:28 -0400
From: cybermaster@earthlink.net (Tiree)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Progeny
In the Glantri boxed set, in the back of the book "The Grimoire" it has
these tables for use with half-human/half-magical races other than Elves,
could someone give me a few examples of those races? Thanks.
"Who's General Failure, and why does he keep accessing my hard drive?"
Joseph Peralta
cybermaster@earthlink.net
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 06:33:49 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
>I've always liked War Machine, but sometimes i found many of the rule
>inappropriate (ex: if the opponent cannot harm your soldiers: +50 BR...
but
>if the opponent cannot harm you, YOU HAVE WON!!...) Hope i'll exploit
those
>data someday..
>
I think it had something to dowith there being a small chance that even
a REALLY inferior force can sometimes totally out manouver it`s opponent
and therefore achieve victory, or some such. As usual if you don`t like
it don`t use it. <;-P
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:36:32 -0700
From: Frank Wils <fwils@utrecht.kvk.nl>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - My take on Karameikos
Hi everybody!
Though I'm new, here's my opinion...:
I think the fact that some people like and some people dislike
Karameikos is just natural. Also the question of good ore evil Stefan is
very natural.
Look at our real world. A lot of things are happening in the USA, but
does that make the USA popular with everybody?? Also most people sem to
view the USA as 'good', but within it's boundaries are a lot of things
going on that are definately not 'good acts'. But does this make Clinton
evil? I don't think so...
But then again, this is just my humble opinion...
Frank
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 06:53:35 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
>The thing that peeves me is that originally it was supposed to be
"magical
>might (Alphatia) vs military might (Thyatis) = stalemate"
>
Have you ever actually examined that equation at all it SUCKS! When one
side on the field has much more magic it almost always wins because
their opponent morale breaks due to constant magical attack. When you
get to high power magic its over even sooner eg you`ve got 10,000 men
ive got 1,000 plus a heirophant druid ! YOU lose every time. 2*firestorm
2*creeping doom 2*earthquake elementals treants etc.
>
Another think
>I like about Mystara is that I think its the only campaign setting
where
>FIGHTERS and not Mages are often really high level, famous guys. Like
>Thincol, Stefan Karameikos, Ericall, and even Sir John of the Wain.
>
You mean the fact that most of them have a REASON for being so tough as
well. Thincol was mthe best gladiator, Golden Kahn waged war to gain the
Khanate etc. Wheras what`s his name, king cormyr,
in FR is 20th(AD&D) and apart from one incident has NOT taken up the
sword in anger. Training may get you to about 8th but no better. Let`s
remember his court wizard and power behind the throne is only SIX levels
lower than he is and relatively is much more active.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #486
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 487
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
Alphatia in and out (was[MYSTARA] - BGPD)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic on the Floating Continent of Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
[MYSTARA] - What`s going on?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
Re: [MYSTARA] - 1015 Almanac strikes back!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 06:58:28 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
>(But anyway, this whole thread is just about differing opinions. And
as I
>voted Tory in the last election, you can see that my mind is pretty
well
>set...)
>
Oh so you voted NEW Labour as well did you! <FSEGBG> <;-P
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:11:17 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Alphatia in and out (was[MYSTARA] - BGPD)
><< >Mind you, I'm with Jamuga on one point - moving it back to the
surface
> >world would be even better! :-)
> >
> I`ve gotta disagree with that. CASE on surface is good enough! Imagine
> if Broderic was to get his hands on the FULL Alphatian army and navy!
> We`ve only just recovered from the last great war! <;-P >>
>
>sorry dude but i have to disagree with here. when alphatia sank, the
bulk of
>the alphatian armies were poised to strike glantri. being away from the
>alphatian continent when it sank these warriors spared the drowning and
>subsequent reawakening in hw. so these guys and gals are still on the
surface
>world, composing a large proportion of the displaced alphatians.
>
Yes but since then they`ve rebuilt somewhat in HW, and all the really
powerful mgic stuff went inside with them eg all those 36th level mages.
Bring them back out and some of them will break the rule of ages and
ACTUALLY get involved that`s the problem
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:34:28 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life.
At 22.09 07/07/98 PDT, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
>Alphatia is doomed to failure. A few hundred years from now (maybe
>sooner, maybe later), the Thyatian 3rd Fleet, consisting of Beagle-class
>ships and armed with Hellbore missiles, zooms down through the polar
>openings. The Thyatian power mages, now equiped with all of Alphatia's
>magic and more, neutralize the Council, and Alphatia becomes a new
>"protectorate" of the Grand Benevolent Thyatian Commonwealth, and
>Eriadna enjoys her new life as serving wench to His August Majesty,
>Emperor Galaxius IV...
True, but you forgot about the Alphatian living on the surface. Those have
not problems with the SoP, so they should be equipped with all of Thyatian
stuff too and thus they should be able to defend the HW Alphatia from any
Thyatian attack.... unless the Thyatians destroy them first :-)
BTW: I'm not pro-Alphatia or pro-Thyatis, but all this discussion made me
like Alphatia more.
Anyway Jaibul rules! :-)
- --------------
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Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:08:02 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
At 15.45 08/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>>
>Why Thothia is even in the NACE pie is beyond me. IMO, they would have
>Imperial pretentions of their own, and the Alphatian troops which joined
>them would be given a choice of either being a part of that (which many
>would accept, IMO, since many would have origins in Ekto & Trikelios, which
>are largely Thothian-inhabited), or. . .
> Thothia doesn't really need the NACE, IMO.
But maybe the NACE needs Thothia. Who knows what NACE offered Thothia to
join in?
Look at the RW, do the USA need NATO? I mean now that the cold-war is over.
Well, probably not, at least not from a simple military defensive point of
view.
On the other hand many of the countries part of NATO need the US to defend
their country, Italy for example.
Moreover you can toss in economic reasons, Thothia trades mainly with
former Alphatian countries, not with Thyatis.
And don't forget that Thothia has a strong defensive army, but I doubt they
can use those undead and sphinxes far from their homeland.
**************
Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com
DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant
Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:13:28 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
At 20.41 07/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>
>Sorry about this IMO post, but this is the pinnacle of why I don't like 1000
>36th level mages wandering about. At least in AD+D, even if you have that
>as the case, you have at least SOME restriction... Otherwise the situation
>is...
But even in OD&D you have restrictions. 1) You need 18 INT/WIS to cast a
wish, so not everybody would be able to do that. 2) A clever DM is the
ultimate restriction to PCs misuse of wish.
For example:
>
>Alphatia and Thyatis declare war. Day 1... An enterprising 36th level
>Alphatian wizard.
>
>I wish my next spell cast will pierce any magical defences...
Good, unfortunately it cannot pierce mundane ones :-)
>I wish Emperor Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons.
Ok. Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons for just a couple of
seconds, than he's teleported back to Thyatis City.
It's simple, isn't it?
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:46:42 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
At 12.36 08/07/98 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote:
><< There was a good reason for putting it on Monster's Island, I think it was
> because Monster's Island is neutral ground, something like having
> Washington in a separate district and in one of the States. >>
>
>In Germany and Italy it works good enough without being
>on neutral ground.
>
True, but Germany and Italy are very different from NACE. Not only they
lack all those high-level mages, but they aren't a confederation of
different states like the USA. Well, Germany is a federation, but it's very
different from the USA.
Moreover there're other real-world examples of capitals being in neutral
ground besides NACE and the USA, I think Australia is one and maybe also
Brazil and Mexico, not sure though.
Anyway, getting back to Mystara, I _wish_ Herve could explain us why he
choosed Monter's Island.
- --------------
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Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:13:28 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
At 20.41 07/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>
>Sorry about this IMO post, but this is the pinnacle of why I don't like 1000
>36th level mages wandering about. At least in AD+D, even if you have that
>as the case, you have at least SOME restriction... Otherwise the situation
>is...
But even in OD&D you have restrictions. 1) You need 18 INT/WIS to cast a
wish, so not everybody would be able to do that. 2) A clever DM is the
ultimate restriction to PCs misuse of wish.
For example:
>
>Alphatia and Thyatis declare war. Day 1... An enterprising 36th level
>Alphatian wizard.
>
>I wish my next spell cast will pierce any magical defences...
Good, unfortunately it cannot pierce mundane ones :-)
>I wish Emperor Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons.
Ok. Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons for just a couple of
seconds, than he's teleported back to Thyatis City.
It's simple, isn't it?
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:14:27 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic on the Floating Continent of Alphatia
>Why not do it for free? A D&D Wish doesn't cost you anything (see
above),
>and you'll get more "goodwill" if you do it for free, and grateful
dudes
>will give you favorable treatement in the future.
>>
>
Well, I hate to saythis, `canon` for mages in OD&D was that you didn`t
even share spells with others cos theyre future competition. Why would
you want to create them in the first place?
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:14:53 -0700
From: Frank <fwils@utrecht.kvk.nl>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
> Another think
> >I like about Mystara is that I think its the only campaign setting
> where
> >FIGHTERS and not Mages are often really high level, famous guys. Like
> >Thincol, Stefan Karameikos, Ericall, and even Sir John of the Wain.
> >
> You mean the fact that most of them have a REASON for being so tough as
> well. Thincol was mthe best gladiator, Golden Kahn waged war to gain the
> Khanate etc. Wheras what`s his name, king cormyr,
> in FR is 20th(AD&D) and apart from one incident has NOT taken up the
> sword in anger. Training may get you to about 8th but no better. Let`s
> remember his court wizard and power behind the throne is only SIX levels
> lower than he is and relatively is much more active.
Besides, isn't that the way it was meant in the original (somewhat
stereotype) D&D rules? The glorious, famous, popular fighter and the
distracted, introvert, not-able-to-rule, cunning wizard. Just look at
Glantri: Great wizards, but very bad rulers...
Frank
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:20:59 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
paul dooley wrote:
> >The thing that peeves me is that originally it was supposed to be
> "magical
> >might (Alphatia) vs military might (Thyatis) = stalemate"
> >
> Have you ever actually examined that equation at all it SUCKS! When one
> side on the field has much more magic it almost always wins because
> their opponent morale breaks due to constant magical attack.
But this is totally untrue at the basic assumption level. The original
equation was more like "Pure magery" (Alphatia) vs "a mix of talents"
(Thyatis). Only in later sources was it bastardized to magic vs warrior.
And it was never intended to be a stalemate. A stalemate is a draw, neither
side can win. The scenario has always been that Alphatia would win but at a
great cost. Therefore the battleground is always removed from the central
empires to the colonies.
Think of it in terms of the democratic West against the communist East. I
don't want to start a huge argument here...but America always went for the
modern, high-tech end of weaponry, while the Soviet Union bought up as
massively as possible all the old outdated equipment.
I won't argue who would have won, but it is unquestionable that the cost of a
fight between the two superpowers would have been atrocious.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:21:48 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - BGPD
>Alphatian motherland is embroiled in a huge civil war, and pretty much
the
>rest of the events play out as officially given. Alliances form
amongst
>the nations, and others try to get involved. It will be an interesting
10
>years or so. Maybe I'll do up a timeline someday.
>
YES PLEASE. That`ll save ME having to work out an entire alternate
timeline for some stuff. I`m thinking of doing an entire series of WHAT
IF? adventures and such info will be greatly appreciated. A GM`s work is
never done <G> <;-P
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:20:05 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> As I recall, in the latest Net Almanac whats his name (Favian Vern???)
was
> going to set up a democratic government. (The only one in Mystara bar
> Leeha). And from that interview with Broderick, the Alphatians are going
to
> let him go ahead with it.
>
Then please send me some of what the folks who work on the Net Almanac have
been smoking, because that is patently rediculous, obviously done out of
favoritism towards the NACE, and completely out of character for Alphatia
and, especially, Esterhold.
Esterhold has some of the worst Alphatians in existance forming the bulk
of the Alphatian population, and the bulk of the total population consists
of people who were savagely and ruthlessly enslaved. Again: If you
(completely unrealistically) have them give the vote to everyone, do you
realistically think that the 70-80% of the former slaves would vote to keep
their former overseers in power, and remain part of the same Empire that
kept it's booted heel on their necks for centuries?
>
> Southern Ireland??? The difference is that South Vietnam was a corrupt
> government despised by all who lived there.
>
I made no reference to Ireland, remember.
As far as Esterhold, if you think the government is not corrupt,
opressive, and dispised by all who live in Esterhold (the native, Jennite
population), then obviously you've read different source material than I
have. Perhaps I have an earlier printing of DotE, which was filled with
erronious information, which they rectified in later printings,
transforming Alphatia into an egalitarian democracy. If so, please let me
know, and I'll search for a corrected copy.
>
> However, in Esterhold there will be (is?) a democratic government, which
> will pacify the Jennites living there (I also think they will be made
free
> citizens by Favian Vern) and prevent all out guerrilla war, like in
Vietnam.
>
Again, that seems patently absurd, for the reasons described above.
>
> I wasnt talking about the Empire being democratic. The NACE is a
> republic/confederation of semi autonomous states. It so happens that the
> area the Jennites live in is probably going to be a democracy. So, at
least
> from the Jennites point of view - you have democracy.
>
1) it is absurd to believe that the same Alphatians who last month kept a
booted heel on the neck of the Jennites would suddenly decide to elevate
them to the status of equals.
2) it is furthermore absurd that the Jennite population would vote to
remain a part of the Empire who ruthlessly opressed them, once/if given the
chance.
3) Who on Rad's green Mystara thought that this was in character for
Alphatia, any portion of it? And if their is a "last place on Mystara"
where Alphatians would decide to embrace their slaves as equals, it is
Esterhold, which, as I said, is populated by the LEAST enlightened
Alphatians and the MOST debased/opressed of their slaves.
I am sorry, because I know people put a lot of hard work into the Net
Almanac, but I'm afraid they often don't think things through. I appologize
for being critical, but IMO this is not in keeping with the spirit of
Alphatia, or of Mystara, the same spirit they desire to keep alive. It is,
instead, in the full spirit of a DM who also plays, and who's character
"happens" to stumble upon a Vorpal Blade.
I.E. it is as if they realized the potential problem Esterhold would
create for the NACE, and rather than resolving it naturally and
realistically, they all got together with the goal of coming up with an
idea to make it go away.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:29:44 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
>(who hopes King Stephan has a nasty accident)
>
Well he`s just about to IMC as Oliver Jowellet(it`s sort of like that
isn`t it?) has just died and the church of Karameikoshas plunged the
country into civil war. His longivity potions failed and he missed his
ressurection roll. He`s DEAD DEAD. My PC`s, including a paladin of
church traladara, will probably try to quest for his soul though. If
they don`t get caught up in their quests for Immortality that is.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:24:44 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Oh - I almost forgot. According to the NACE constitution a member cannot
> simply leave on its own. If they tried, there would be a civil war
> (secession - like in America).
>
A bloody, knock-down drag-out showdown/rebellion is a lot more realistic
than the flower-strewn ending that seems to be planned, if I'm to beleve
the appallingly unrealistic scenario that has been painted reciently.
And folks might wonder why I, for one, have no plans to impliment the Net
Almanac timeline IMC. *rolls eyes*
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:37:24 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
> >
> Have you ever actually examined that equation at all it SUCKS! When one
> side on the field has much more magic it almost always wins because
> their opponent morale breaks due to constant magical attack. <sniped>.
> >
Assuming Thyatis has no spellcasters would be like assuming Alphatia has no
soldiers. Perhaps you've only read the Alphatian portion of DotE, in which
case I'd invite you to read the Players Guide to Thyatis and the Thyatis
section as well, and see especially where it talks about Thyatis developing
clerical magic to counter Alphatia's mages, and Thyatis' own respect for
the efficiency of Wizardry.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:44:59 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - What`s going on?
Hey all wazzup? I go away for a couple of days and there`s nearly 400
mailing from the list. i`ve only got an hour a day for this so it`s
gonna take me ages to catch up so if i post after its all over you know
why!
ttfn,
Paul
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:41:54 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> But maybe the NACE needs Thothia.
>
SO? This attitude of "what the NACE needs, the NACE gets" is one of the
things that has me avoiding the Net Almanac like the plague. The NACE needs
Thothia, so it gets it. The NACE needs a quiet Esterhold, so *poof* an
egalitarian society where one of the most vile slave-based societies on
Mystara once stood. The NACE is starting to become Karameikos, where only
good things happen, and all problems disapear without effort, the kind gift
of the game designers.
>
> Moreover you can toss in economic reasons, Thothia trades mainly with
> former Alphatian countries, not with Thyatis.
>
How much does Thothia trade at all? The place always seemed very insular to
me.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatian Military
> (Is it just me, or is there an inordinate amount of fascination with
> Byzantium among Mystaraphiles?)
I don't believe so. Much of our favorite world is Byzantine in origin
though and a good chunk of the rest is Greek (Thyatis, Milenia, Traldar
are my three big examples for this statement). I do think Mystara fans
are interested in foreign cultures generally and Byzantium is one of the
historical cultures about which ALOT has been written. Heck, there are
books on just social welfare systems of the Byzantine Empire. On the
other hand, try finding lots of info on the Nubians, Scythians or Goths.
Some cultures just seem to be favorites of historians more than others so
the general populace is more educated about those few. Just all my
opinion of course.
Former Bills coach Marv Levy, on being asked if he'd switch to the more
trendy and "fashinable" 4-3 defense: "It's also fashionable to wear a
baseball cap backward, but I'm not doing that"
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:28:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - 1015 Almanac strikes back!
> 'I take it this means that 1014 Almanac is available somewhere?'
>
> Sorry, old time Mystra fan, new comer here
Yep, it was the initial Almanac put out by the MML. It should be
available on some of the Mystara pages out there. Two good pages are
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932
They have links to most of the other Mystara pages out there as well.
Former Bills coach Marv Levy, on being asked if he'd switch to the more
trendy and "fashinable" 4-3 defense: "It's also fashionable to wear a
baseball cap backward, but I'm not doing that"
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:58:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> IIRC, the "Egg of Coot" was a place, not an artifact (unless they changed
> things). The main (and very outlandish) villians of the campaign were based
> out of the Egg (EGG?)
It was a place and a supernatural being. Daniel Boese posted the
following:
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:35:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Boese <dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca>
Here's a little something I found on the net...
For all the readers of rec.games.frp.misc that weren't around in the
early 80's (or at least, weren't interested in RPGs then), and to allow all
concerned to make up their minds from the only data we have available, I
present to the net an unauthorised reproduction of Dave Arneson's original
description of the Egg of Coot, straight from the "First Fantasy Campaign"
supplement from Judges Guild (alas, sadly out of business and gone).
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[note: the following is quite long. Also, the poster's comments within are
enclosed in these nifty square brackets. What will they think of next?]
Egg of Coot
This all consuming personality lives off the egos of others to support his
own ego. At one time (millennea ago) of humanoid characteristics, today,
his exact physical description is unknown. In fact it is not even known for
sure if he (it) has a physical appearance. Theories say that he is now a
huge mass of jointly operating cells, a huge mass of Jelly, a giant thickly
hided egg, pure energy, a man, a mass of living rock, etc. It is generally
acknowledged that the physique of this creature is too horrible for any
mortal to behold and that it carries out its activities through the use of
surrogates which it controls or has programmed. All communications with this
beast are through direct mental contact or via his throne-room which is
dominated by a huge old world artifact said to be an ancient war machine,
through which it communicates directly via voice transmission from some
other area of its City-Palace.
1) Enjoys little jokes like scrawling obscene words and phrases on the walls
of latrines and garbage cans (to show it's "power"), sky writing, pulling
the wings off of flies, etc. General level of jokes indicates a Level II
Intelligence with a mature age of 3 or 6, never having been denied
anything!)
[no, the text never said what a Level II intelligence was]
2) Has a huge Laboratory that turns out spells, for selling, which are
(of course) perfection itself (30% chance of failure per level of spell,
i.e. III = 50%, II = 40%, etc.). Of historical interest is when the Ran of
Ah Foo served in the factory as a Spell Maker but was kicked out when he
"surpassed" the Egg's standard of excellence, which, since the perfect
standard is impossible to surpass, meant that he (the Ran) had committed
the ultimate wrong and was forced to flee rather than become the newest
human victim to be experimented on.
3) All close servants of the Egg, undergo mental conditioning that is aimed
at crushing all their mental initiative. This is then replaced by the over-
whelming desire to serve the Egg and do _exactly_ as it wished. Part of the
standard conditioning has them believing that all the Egg does and
communicates is good and right with all unbelievers being those jealous of
the Egg's perfection and should be treated accordingly.
4) The Egg is known to hold an unshakable grudge against anything that has
ever in any way caused it difficulty that was not immediately overcome. It
will direct it's efforts exclusively towards the demise of this force even
to the extent of ignoring past offenders in order to go after the newest
threat. This is the result of the Egg's tremendous self-esteem which admits
_no_ failings.
5) The best insight into the Egg's ambitions are in it's creed which is
daily intoned by hundreds of conditioned followers, around his capital
city:
Might is Right. Might is Right. Don't Give a Sucker an even break.
Winning _is_ everything. Get what you want by Hook or by Crook, but
get it. The Ends always justify the means used to achieve it. The
meek may inherit the Earth but that means the strongest will rule
everything.
I fear the rest of the Creed is a bit too strong for our gentile readers
and deal with certain "Breeding priviledges and customs". Let it suffice
that when an area is captured by the Egg, it shortly undergoes a dramatic
population decline and acquires a new and very unhuman population
composition.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
[yes, the original text had unmatched brackets, spelling and grammar errors.
That was one of its charms, like everything from JG. Not polished and error-
free like all the life had been beaten out of it by marketroids. But I
digress...]
Hmm. Forgot the bit at the end about "gentile readers". It does look more
and more like a poke at Gygax (who always talks about his "gentle readers").
I was going to comment on the points, but they pretty much speak for
themselves.
Dave Arneson had an interesting sense of humour and it is all through the
First Fantasy Campaign. This was, of course, back when we knew we were playing
a game and not delving into epic fantasy. Hmph. If there is any demand I'll
type in the truly classic "Marfeldt the Barbarian". That one still makes me
laugh.
- --
* mmcalees@csr.uvic.ca (Michael McAleese) : I speak only for me... *
"Man can believe the impossible, but never the improbable." - Oscar Wilde
(For snooping governments: heroin, cocaine, FBI, CSIS, CIA, albatross...)
- --
Daniel Boese dboese@freenet.npiec.on.ca
Not mentioned of course is that EGG stands for E. Gary Gygax, a little fun
Dave Arneson is having at the expense of his former friend
I still think it'd be neat to delve more in-depth into the mind of the Egg
and the island itself but I'm not one to tamper with Blackmoor (much)
Former Bills coach Marv Levy, on being asked if he'd switch to the more
trendy and "fashinable" 4-3 defense: "It's also fashionable to wear a
baseball cap backward, but I'm not doing that"
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:05:43 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
>
> It was a place and a supernatural being. Daniel Boese posted the
> following:
>
Yah, Eggy himself 8-)
In fact, I was looking for my "First Fantasy Campaign" supliment because I
I wanted to post the below quote, but I gave up before finding it (it's in
there somewhere. . .right next to the Arc of the Covenant, I think. I gotta
get organizized. . .)
> Might is Right. Might is Right. Don't Give a Sucker an even
break.
> Winning _is_ everything. Get what you want by Hook or by Crook,
but
> get it. The Ends always justify the means used to achieve it. The
> meek may inherit the Earth but that means the strongest will rule
> everything.
>
> I fear the rest of the Creed is a bit too strong for our gentile readers
> and deal with certain "Breeding priviledges and customs". Let it suffice
> that when an area is captured by the Egg, it shortly undergoes a dramatic
> population decline and acquires a new and very unhuman population
> composition.
>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hmm. Forgot the bit at the end about "gentile readers". It does look
more
> and more like a poke at Gygax (who always talks about his "gentle
readers").
> I was going to comment on the points, but they pretty much speak for
> themselves.
>
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #487
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 488
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - For all you Karamekian anti-fans (and fans, too)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal
Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Apology
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:19:15 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
Mischa E Gelman wrote:
>
If you are interested in the Egg of Coot and what its creator, Dave Arneson, has
to say about it and the upcoming accessory, look in the MML archives for the
discussion I had with him on this very topic.
> Not mentioned of course is that EGG stands for E. Gary Gygax, a little fun
> Dave Arneson is having at the expense of his former friend
He says that, contrary to rumor and myth, the Fearsome Egg of Coot is in no way a
reference to Gary.
>
>
> I still think it'd be neat to delve more in-depth into the mind of the Egg
> and the island itself but I'm not one to tamper with Blackmoor (much)
I can't wait to see what Dave produces...what he described to me sounded
absolutely fascinating.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:19:56 -0500
From: "E Gray" <grayhome@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
- -----Original Message-----
From: paul dooley <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
>
> Another think
>>I like about Mystara is that I think its the only campaign setting
>>where FIGHTERS and not Mages are often really high level, famous >>guys.
Like Thincol, Stefan Karameikos, Ericall, and even Sir John of the >>Wain.
>You mean the fact that most of them have a REASON for being so tough >as
well. Thincol was the best gladiator, Golden Kahn waged war to gain >the
Khanate etc.
>Wheras what`s his name, king cormyr, in FR is 20th(AD&D) and apart >from
one incident has NOT taken up the sword in anger.
Azoun, and IIRC, he spent quite a few years as a rag-tag adventurer
gaining fame through all sorts of heroic exploits. Since he was 29
when he took the throne, there's a good piece of time for him to have
gained some levels before...
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:24:35 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - For all you Karamekian anti-fans (and fans, too)
<< What? Anti-Ethengarian tirades? Where? Alexius has been to Ethengar a
few
times, and even made some friends. Moglai Khan even shared some fermented
goat's milk with him, and Alexius made his Constitution roll and didn't
puke. :-) >>
Oh, sorry then. Probably Alexius utters all this nonsense
while being "magic jarred" by this foul Bargle. :-)
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:24:39 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thincol and Torenal
<< It's perfect! Thincol and Torenal, the ultimate showdown in Limbo!
See Mystara's greatest warriors go head-to-head in the shade of the
Imperial Colloseum. The Masters of Chaos could sell tickets to sentient
beings across the Multiverse. >>
What's about a short story about the death of emperor Tincol?
It would be something like that:
"Pain! All Thincol could remember was pain. But now the pain
had gone. He notices the weeping servants around his bed,
the motionless face of his son Eusebius. 'Stop weeping, you
stupid folks' he shout, but nobody seemed to hear him.
Determined he stand up and left his bed. No reaction!
A nagging feeling told him that he had to be dead, but he
didn't want to believe it. Thincol left his bedchamber and
walked through his palace, but nobody could see him.
Finally he say a man in armour watching him. 'You!' Thincol
shouted, 'you can see me!' - 'Yes, of course, your Majesty.
Don't you know who I am? Then I will tell you my name:
I am Torenal.' - 'Torenal? Torenal is dead for years now!
What are you doing here?' Torenal answered: 'You just
have died, Thincol Torion. And I'm waiting for you since
I've died. There's a matter we'll have to settle.' Shocked
murmured the ex-emperor: 'Yes...yes, you're right, I know
it.' Then he added: 'How will we handle it?' - 'We'll leave the
living behind and go to a place where we will be undisturbed.
Trust me, I had enough time to find it.' Thincol suddenly
noticed that he now wore his arms and armour. 'Then let
us go now, my old foe. The time has finally come.'
Anybody able to see the both would have seen now
the both old dead fighters leaving the imperial palace
to fight their long postponed duel. But of course no
one say the both leaving..."
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:19:34 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
> a game and not delving into epic fantasy. Hmph. If there is any demand
I'll
> type in the truly classic "Marfeldt the Barbarian". That one still makes
me
> laugh.
>
Ok, I just *had* to quote that one. It does paint quite the picture. . . .
__________________________________________________________
Marfeldt the Barbarian
Known to be wandering south of blackmoor, this creature has wrecked several
kingdoms to the east and may be responsible for the divisions in the Great
Kingdom. He suddenly burst upon the world about a year ago when it was said
he killed the Wizard that created him during a friendly wrestling match.
A secondary power of this creature is the revulsion [I think he meant
attraction; read on --ed] that overcomes all those who are near it for a
prolonged period. If this period lasts for more than a few turns, the other
party will gradually assume the mental characteristics of the barbarian and
only a Wizard can cure him/her [Doesn't say with what spell, though --ed]
Marfeldt the Barbarian
(A Short Biography)
*(From the Archives of Rhun)* On the 14th of Salix, the unwashed Barbarian
first came to our fair country, presented himself to the recruiting
Sergeant at the West Gate and joined our Army. To have put him to the Sword
on the spot would have served the world better than all the sacrifices made
to the Great Gods throughout history. Distaining the regular training
program, the Barbarian slew his instructors with eas (this ruring practice
with blunted weapons) and showed great leadership potential by beating to
death anyone who disagreed with him. Thus, within a week, the Barbarian was
a Sergeant and also sent out from the city to the Hill country to collect
the annual tribute from the Tribes there (it was essential that he leave
town before rioting Wine Merchants and Tavern Keepers stormed the Army
Barracks).
Reaching the poor Hill Tribes, Marfeldt (for that is the name he used) was
disgusted by the poor hides and livestock presented as tribute, although
that was all that was expected. Taking his squad of men, he exterminated
the first Tribe to the last man, taking all their women and valuables. The
gathering hordes of Hillmen objected to his tribute collecting shortly
thereafter, and the Barbarian returned with a few wenches loaded with Gold
to the Capital.
Pleased by the Gold and Women (although somewhat used at this point), the
Duke directed that the Barbarian be promoted to Lieutenant and join the
Army being dispatched to quell the revolt of the Hill Tribes. Taking the
fore in the campaign, the Barbarian led the Army directly into a frontal
attack on the Hillmen's great mountain keep. Undeterred, the Barbarian
breeched the walls and led the surviving troops into the town where all the
men were put to the Sword. The Gold and Women were born back to our fair
city by the surviving members of the Army who had lost 80% of their numbers
following the Barbarian through the breech.
More pleased than ever by the Barbarian's prowess in battle, the Duke
directed that he be awarded the Military Governorship of the Eastern
Province where there had been bandit trouble of late. Reaching the area
swiftly, Marfeldt determined that the raids were originating within the
country east of his Province. Therefore, he gathered all the armed men
under his control, as well as more than a few unwilling conscripts, and
attacked. The enemy province was quickly devistated, their troops
destroyed, and our troops expended on a colossal scale. It was unfortunate
that in the Barbarian's absence, the bandits also devistated our Eastern
Province. . . . .
Again the acolades given the Barbarian by the Duke were great and Marfeldt
was given the command of our Armies now faced with an invasion from our
eastern neighbor. Swiftly taking the field, Marfeldt defeated the enemy in
a series of aggressive moves, most of which involved attacking the enemy
Army wherever they were encountered. All who were found were killed, and
great trains of treasure were brought back to our fair city. Again losses
were high.
This war disturbed our other neighbors greatly and when their emissaries
arrived at the Capital to inquire after our intentions, they found the
Barbarian was second only to the Duke. In such an exalted position, it was
Marfeldt that recieved their Embassy. His reaction was bloody and swift
with the Ambassadors remains being returned to their repective countries
when their origin could be determined. . .
The ensuing war against us by our neighbors was the greatest that any
country could have fought. Everywhere the Barbarian led our Army to victory
until less than a thousand were left facing the enemy alliances 10,000 that
threatened the Capital. In spite of this, he was again victorious, cutting
his way through the enemy lines and killing all their Generals causing a
panic among the enemy and forcing the latter to retreat. With fewer than a
hundred me, Marfeldt returned to the city and the Duke.
With the country devastated, the treasury empty, the civil populace
(women) fled to the hills, and no Army left, there was little the Duke
could give his victorious General. The Barbarian flew into a rage, killed
the Duke, the Army, looted the city, and was last seen scouring the Hills.
. . .
Thus our fair country has never returned to it's former greatness and is
held in thrall by it's neighbors, who have not rulled us gently. . . .
*(This is but a fragment of the story, there is no confirmation of the
fate of the Duke's six daughters nor the numbness of the mind that seems to
afflict thouse who converse with Barbarian. . .at least in this story!)*
_________________________
End.
One side note is that though in Mystara canon the treatment of women is
fairly enlightened, that wasn't always the case in gaming history (c.f
above).
Anyhow, I hope that this has been somewhat humorous irregardless, and thus
may in some fashion make amends for any offence my own ranting screeds
might have given (especially to Alphatiaphiles).
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:20:57 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Egg of Coot
>
> He says that, contrary to rumor and myth, the Fearsome Egg of Coot is in
no way a
> reference to Gary.
>
Of course. . . . . . . . . . . .*_+
>
> I can't wait to see what Dave produces...what he described to me sounded
> absolutely fascinating.
>
It should be a blast, and I'm looking fwd to it myself. 8-)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:35:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dominique Rivard <tharquil@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
I'm not sure if I've read that somewhere or if I'm making this up but
IMC, the use of a wish is quite a subtle thing. Almost never really do
what you want.
An empiric rule is the more "Good" is the desired effect, closer to
the intent of the caster it is. To cast an evil wish you better check
again your spelling because, as the DM, I'll take my time to find a
weakness in your spell and get it against you. Just like most "Deal
with the Devil" stories end.
IMO, if Wish is the most powerful spell, those who can cast it know it
and use is it with care. Others who get it from magical objects and
who use it lightly, are the one in deep trouble. After one try, a PC
learn this. This is called experience ;o)
==
Tharquil's French D&D Homepage at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/5201
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 19:43:04 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
>Anyway, getting back to Mystara, I _wish_ Herve could explain us why he
>choosed Monter's Island.
Sure, I will do that and answer to the whole thread too.
It's just that, I had two days with lotsa work IRL, and then had to
catch up with the mml and its hundreds of posts... Okay, hope I'll have
time tomorrow, it's already 7:30pm here in France.
Though, about why I choose Monster Island as the new capital, it's
certainly already well explained in the 1014 almanac and on my homepage.
It's funny that many people don't like that choice, and often challenge
it without having read the arguments, yet have no other option to
propose that stands the argument. I've already explained my choice to
various people in private email, and all them eventually agreed that it
was indeed the best choice. Funny.
PS: Yes, I'm the one responsible for most of what concerns the NACE in
the net almanacs (including the name, which many people don't seem to
like), so you can blame me for it all ;) Just don't fall on me before
I've started responding to some of the posts on that matter, please. BTW
I'm surprised some people criticize the NACE yet don't seem to have
really read all the entries about it in the MA1014&1015 and spread false
ideas/arguments about it. hmmm. More on this later.
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:43:27 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
>But even in OD&D you have restrictions. 1) You need 18 INT/WIS to cast a
>wish, so not everybody would be able to do that. 2) A clever DM is the
>ultimate restriction to PCs misuse of wish.
>Ok. Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons for just a couple of
>seconds, than he's teleported back to Thyatis City.
>
>It's simple, isn't it?
Well, thats just a two edged sword. If you act like that, wish becomes
useless and people clamour for 10th level spells to take its place.
Unnecessarily. A wish is THE most powerful spell in the game - if you can
think of any magical effect in the game, it is either
a) within the grasp of a wish
or
b) completely beyond mortal magic (ie NO 10th level SPELLS!)
This isn't a problem, unless you have wishes on tap. The 18 Int/Wis isnt
really a problem, because Someone will have the required stats - and then
have infinite wishes (that ability score requirement just causes a massive
rift between the power of mages with the stats and mages without).
The AD+D method is definitely better - available to all, but dangerously
taxing to cast. The aging is a MAJOR deterrent - especially when, if the
mage gets it wrong and the wish is perverted by the Most Evil DM, he has
aged 5 years nevertheless. So its not going to be slung aroung very much.
(Also the wish spell turning a mage into a virtual paraplegic for a couple
of weeks is a bit of downer, too). The D+D version doesnt solve the
problem - several Alphie wizards are still going to be able to cast any
number of wish spells, and therefore the Empire has wish spells on tap.
This topic comes up every so often in Dragon and other sources. I notice
that the Complete Wizard places rather draconian guidelines on wish, making
it damn near useless (nobody I know uses that stuff). And it makes my
stomach churn reading about 10th, 11th and 12th level spells in the Netheril
box.
(10th level spells are just more things that PCs are never going to get
their hands on - and I hate that. Or, otherwise, it becomes an excuse for
some truly rampant powergaming. And have a care for poor Joe Fighter and
Bob Thief at that level).
Ive read some stuff about True Dweomers, and I consider those to be passable
alternative to 10th level magic (if pressed by a player I would use them,
but I would rather not). Ive also read Jaggars True Dweomers on Shawns
Mystara Site, and though powerful, I wouldnt consider these to be beyond the
power of a wish spell.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:56:08 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>But maybe the NACE needs Thothia. Who knows what NACE offered Thothia to
>join in?
>Look at the RW, do the USA need NATO? I mean now that the cold-war is over.
>Well, probably not, at least not from a simple military defensive point of
>view.
>On the other hand many of the countries part of NATO need the US to defend
>their country, Italy for example.
Well, I don't know about the latter. Ive checked out a few military
journals on the topic (even a few hypothetical World War 3 projections which
were used by military commanders) and the bulwark of NATO vs the Warsaw Pact
was Germany and France. I myself was surprised by this, but the US military
presence in Europe during the cold war was so small as to be negligible
(certainly compared to the French and German military). And if its the sea
war your talking about, the Black Sea Russian fleet was a bit of a
flyspeck - no match for the French fleet, for example.
Of course, its all irrelevant, because if their was a war there were enough
nukes lying in wait to sterilise the entire planet. Kindof like these
Alphatian wish spells...
I like the trade theory though. I mean, Thothia is just a desert - the only
thing of value is their vast magical learning, a shadow of ancient Nithia.
The Alphatians would be well up to lay their hands on that (for a price, of
course...)
There is also the matter of influence. Looking at the US/NATO treaty - the
US gets a lot of influence from NATO (like, the support of all the NATO
nations, the justification to poke their unwanted nose in European affairs,
that sort of thing (bad joke, no flaming)). Thothia is no probably one of
the most valued states in the NACE - much influence their over the entire
Empire.
I remember from Talons of Night though that the place seemed absolutely
riddled with corruption (and aranea). I also remember that the PCs don't
actually do a great deal to stop that - they take out the Night Spider
herself, and Aketheti (but not necessarily permanently - she is a vampire,
and they don't know that), Ramenhotep X is still around, and so are the
many, many, many aranean minions. I don't think Thothia would be
sufficiently stable to have Imperial aspirations of their own, so perhaps
thats why they joined the NACE.
Cheerz
ROB
(BTW - check out the troop ratings for aranea in Talons of Night. No way
dude! Aranea have to be one of the most powerful races on Mystara - almost
as bad as Realms drow. Also - who in the Net Almanac team is writing stuff
on Herath and Bellayne? Those two places RULE! And their is precious
little stuff on them...)
:(
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:56:36 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
>
>
> Well, thats just a two edged sword. If you act like that, wish becomes
> useless and people clamour for 10th level spells to take its place.
> Unnecessarily. A wish is THE most powerful spell in the game - if you
can
> think of any magical effect in the game, it is either
>
1) Regarding the effects of a Wish (the "Thincol appears for two seconds
then poofs back home"), all that means is one tries again, with more
careful wording the next time.
2) However, the Wish is a useful *tool*, meant to yes, "break the rules" in
all kinds of interesting ways, but not meant to be able to wreak havok with
game play/game balance. I.E. you can't destroy the world with 50 (or more)
Wishes as someone suggested. Some things are beyond the capabilities of
even infinite Wishes. They are:
A) Stuff based on game mechanics (game-related limits of Wishes based on
the limits of magical power in D&D or AD&D metaphysics).
B) DM Fiat to preserve game playability, I.E. you can't use Wishes to
Teleport all the rulers of the Known World to your home and then use
Programmed Amnesia on them to change them into your pawns, no matter how
many Wishes you use, because it would interfier with the challenge of the
game.
>
> The AD+D method is definitely better - available to all, but dangerously
> taxing to cast. The aging is a MAJOR deterrent - especially when, if the
> mage gets it wrong and the wish is perverted by the Most Evil DM, he has
> aged 5 years nevertheless.
>
The aging is a HUGE deterrent. Folks just aren't going to cast 5 Wishes a
day, even if they are 25th level.
>
> Ive read some stuff about True Dweomers, and I consider those to be
passable
> alternative to 10th level magic (if pressed by a player I would use them,
> but I would rather not).
>
They are at least limited in all kinds of ways (time consuming, DM choice
as to what qualifies as "exotic" components, all of which must be scavenged
for, etc.)
.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:59:46 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> I like the trade theory though. I mean, Thothia is just a desert - the
only
> thing of value is their vast magical learning, a shadow of ancient
Nithia.
> The Alphatians would be well up to lay their hands on that (for a price,
of
> course...)
>
Thothia is like Egypt: a "desert" with a river running down the river.
Egypt was often (almost always) insular. Thothian insularity is just IMO, I
guess, though; but their is no reason why a nation with a rich river valley
*needs* to trade.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:04:28 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
- ----->> As I recall, in the latest Net Almanac whats his name (Favian
Vern???)
>was
>> going to set up a democratic government. (The only one in Mystara bar
>> Leeha). And from that interview with Broderick, the Alphatians are going
>to
>> let him go ahead with it.
>>
>Then please send me some of what the folks who work on the Net Almanac have
>been smoking, because that is patently rediculous, obviously done out of
>favoritism towards the NACE, and completely out of character for Alphatia
>and, especially, Esterhold.
Hey - not me dude!
> Esterhold has some of the worst Alphatians in existance forming the bulk
>of the Alphatian population, and the bulk of the total population consists
>of people who were savagely and ruthlessly enslaved. Again: If you
>(completely unrealistically) have them give the vote to everyone, do you
>realistically think that the 70-80% of the former slaves would vote to keep
>their former overseers in power, and remain part of the same Empire that
>kept it's booted heel on their necks for centuries?
Like I said, they have no say as to whether they want to remain part of the
Empire or not.
>> Southern Ireland??? The difference is that South Vietnam was a corrupt
>> government despised by all who lived there.
>>
>I made no reference to Ireland, remember.
Typo...
> As far as Esterhold, if you think the government is not corrupt,
>opressive, and dispised by all who live in Esterhold (the native, Jennite
>population), then obviously you've read different source material than I
>have. Perhaps I have an earlier printing of DotE, which was filled with
>erronious information, which they rectified in later printings,
>transforming Alphatia into an egalitarian democracy. If so, please let me
>know, and I'll search for a corrected copy.
All those corrupt, evil Alphies got ousted in the recent wars. And the
enslaved Jennites even helped the Alphie forces under Broderick kick in
those corrupt, evil rulers.
*fumbling with some ganja*
Hey, I thought the stuff in the Net Almanac about Esterhold was cool. But
then, lacking any form of DotE, I didnt know what canon Esterhold was like.
Perhaps just as well.
>> I wasnt talking about the Empire being democratic. The NACE is a
>> republic/confederation of semi autonomous states. It so happens that the
>> area the Jennites live in is probably going to be a democracy. So, at
>least
>> from the Jennites point of view - you have democracy.
>>
>1) it is absurd to believe that the same Alphatians who last month kept a
>booted heel on the neck of the Jennites would suddenly decide to elevate
>them to the status of equals.
Ah - they arent the same Alphatians. The nutters who are oppressing the
Jennites never actually joined the NACE (I think) and that was, what, 5
years ago now? that they have been independent tyrannies?
>2) it is furthermore absurd that the Jennite population would vote to
>remain a part of the Empire who ruthlessly opressed them, once/if given the
>chance.
Ive already answered this one - the Alphie constitution doesnt give them a
choice in the matter. They wouldnt be imperialistic if it did, now, would
they? :)
> I am sorry, because I know people put a lot of hard work into the Net
>Almanac, but I'm afraid they often don't think things through. I appologize
>for being critical, but IMO this is not in keeping with the spirit of
>Alphatia, or of Mystara, the same spirit they desire to keep alive. It is,
>instead, in the full spirit of a DM who also plays, and who's character
>"happens" to stumble upon a Vorpal Blade.
> I.E. it is as if they realized the potential problem Esterhold would
>create for the NACE, and rather than resolving it naturally and
>realistically, they all got together with the goal of coming up with an
>idea to make it go away.
Mmm. Thats why I like the idea of the Northern Ireland analog. Esterhold
would be a pain in the butt (and a diplomatic embarrassment) for Alphatia
for years to come. I think its cool as well because it really is a somewhat
similar analog (at least I reckon it is :). It depends on how many Jennites
take to this democracy concept, and how nice (slimy?) Broderick is.
I like these "ranting screeds" of yours...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:09:11 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
- --->> Oh - I almost forgot. According to the NACE constitution a member
cannot
>> simply leave on its own. If they tried, there would be a civil war
>> (secession - like in America).
>>
>A bloody, knock-down drag-out showdown/rebellion is a lot more realistic
>than the flower-strewn ending that seems to be planned, if I'm to beleve
>the appallingly unrealistic scenario that has been painted reciently.
> And folks might wonder why I, for one, have no plans to impliment the Net
>Almanac timeline IMC. *rolls eyes*
Thats not very nice... :)
Check out some potential political maneuvers tho. Democracy for the first
time ever! (bar Leeha). The leader of the Jennite resistance (somewhat
pro-Alphatian, now) is elected in by swift elections, capitalising on the
goodwill the Jennites have for their liberators (and they are liberators,
really, if you think about it). He's elected - and thats that for the next
four years (or whatever).
Hey - why am I defending this? Wheres the Net Almanac team?
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:14:22 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
>>(But anyway, this whole thread is just about differing opinions. And
>as I
>>voted Tory in the last election, you can see that my mind is pretty
>well
>>set...)
>>
>Oh so you voted NEW Labour as well did you! <FSEGBG> <;-P
Ye Gods no! Tory! (this is off topic, I know, but thats a grave insult).
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:14:51 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Apology
> > >
> > Have you ever actually examined that equation at all it SUCKS! When one
> > side on the field has much more magic it almost always wins because
> > their opponent morale breaks due to constant magical attack. <sniped>.
> > >
> Assuming Thyatis has no spellcasters would be like assuming Alphatia has
no
> soldiers. <sniped virulant, obnoxious screed>
Firstly, I'd like to offer a sincere and heartfelt appology for the tone
of several of this morning's rants from myself. While I back the content of
what I wrote, the insulting, sarcastic, obnoxious (more tha usual) tone was
unessisary.
Ok, I'll admit that many of my screeds are obnoxious, but (I hope) they
aren't flaming and rude, like many of the ones I wrote this morning (my
reply to this one, and several replies on Esterhold.) (Explanation is that
I've been in an argument with someone over how powerful his magic user
character should be on the battlefield, and this one seemed to set off the
fireworks. That's an explanation, but not an excuse.)
To try and (this time hopefully rationally, calmly, and not rudely).
Firstly, Thyatis is not magic-poor. It has fewer Wizards of note than
Alphatia, but has spent time and diligent effort cultivating priestly magic
to make up for it.
Secondly is related to this (quoting from one of Rob's posts on Wishes):
>
> (10th level spells are just more things that PCs are never going to get
> their hands on - and I hate that. Or, otherwise, it becomes an excuse
for
> some truly rampant powergaming. And have a care for poor Joe Fighter and
> Bob Thief at that level).
>
No one class, in either D&D or AD&D was intended to be an Ubermench which
religates all other classes to the role of backround/subordinate status,
either one on one, or in melees, or even in mass combat (battles). It is up
to each DM to maintain a balance. Yes, Wizards (if of sufficient level to
not find themselves full of arrows or with swords sticking out of their
bellys) can have quite an impact on a battle. But they are not the
determinant of it's outcome to the exclusion of every other factor. And
this comes from someone who *ENJOYS* playing Wizard characters, not someone
who is anti-Mage or something.
If the game has developed in that direction, where one class is clearly
superior and the others form, at best, a kind of "supporting cast", then
some serious reform is needed to restore the balance. I can remember a time
(circa 10 years ago?) when folks were lamenting how weak Magic-User
characters were compaired to other classes (no armor, few hit points, they
have to scavenge for spells, etc), and so efforts were made to redress
that. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far, though, and for game-balance
reasons it needs to swing back, or at least attention should be given to
the role of Warriors, Rogues, Priests, etc.
As most of us (if not all) know, nacient plans are in the works for a "3rd
Edition" (actually, if you count back, it would be the 4th 5th or 6th)
edition of the game (D&D/AD&D). Perhaps we could start a thread on what
kind of changes we'd like to see in such a game, to clear up the clutter
and make sure that the new rules are well-suited for Mystara (I.E. not
"just" the FR) setting.
Again, though, I'd like to apologize for the very rude tone of some of my
posts.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #488
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 489
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
[MYSTARA] - Mystarans and Byzantium
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:17:11 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> >
> Thothia is like Egypt: a "desert" with a river running down the river.
>
Huh? Sometime I'll need to start paying attention to what I write. . . .
What that *should* have said is ". . .with a river running down the middle."
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:50:38 -0400
From: xrays@fuse.net
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Hola.
Forgive the new guy who just signed up on the list, but did TSR discontinue
ALL Mystara-line products? My group's been running outta Karameikos for awhile
now, and we can't find anything else for it, or Mystara.
E.B.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:00:17 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
>
> Forgive the new guy who just signed up on the list, but did TSR
discontinue
> ALL Mystara-line products?
>
That is correct, sir.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:04:46 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
>
> goodwill the Jennites have for their liberators (and they are liberators,
> really, if you think about it). He's <snip rosy scenario>
>
Which liberators? The Alphatians?
Lets say I enslave you for, say, five years, and treat you brutally. Your
back is scared with the marks of my lash, your foot mangled Kunta-Kinte
style (I "hobbled" you after you tried to escape once), and other
indignities.
Ok, I'm letting you go now, and giving you the right to vote to join my
clique as a wog. How greatful are you?
Also, I feel the need to point out, once again, that the Alphatians who
live in Esterhold were the least enlightened, most despotic and cruel (in
general) of all Alphatians--the worst representatives of their society.
So, one day they wake up and decide that their slaves should be equal? Is
this reasonable? Can you think of a real-world analogy?
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:15:32 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
My friend, you have done a valiant job designing/detailing this area. Don't
take it personally if some people criticize it. I am not saying you are, but I
DO know that my own feelings get caught up in a project that I work on.
My lord! If anyone really tore into the Kingdom of Haven, I know I would feel
personally attacked, at least at first.
My only real thought on the NACE, is that the abbreviation as a name is rather
anachronistic. I have been guilty of this in the past, as have others, but it
does sound rather odd for a fantasy setting.
I believe the seeds for the capital being at Monster Island were already
planted before you took over detailing the place. So I hardly consider "blame"
falling on your shoulders. My point stands though on the essence of Monster
Island being a "really neat place to explore and too bad they (TSR designers)
chose to set up a camp/city/civilization so quickly.
Herve Musseau wrote:
> From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
> >Anyway, getting back to Mystara, I _wish_ Herve could explain us why he
> >choosed Monter's Island.
>
> Sure, I will do that and answer to the whole thread too.
>
> It's just that, I had two days with lotsa work IRL, and then had to
> catch up with the mml and its hundreds of posts... Okay, hope I'll have
> time tomorrow, it's already 7:30pm here in France.
>
> Though, about why I choose Monster Island as the new capital, it's
> certainly already well explained in the 1014 almanac and on my homepage.
> It's funny that many people don't like that choice, and often challenge
> it without having read the arguments, yet have no other option to
> propose that stands the argument. I've already explained my choice to
> various people in private email, and all them eventually agreed that it
> was indeed the best choice. Funny.
>
> PS: Yes, I'm the one responsible for most of what concerns the NACE in
> the net almanacs (including the name, which many people don't seem to
> like), so you can blame me for it all ;) Just don't fall on me before
> I've started responding to some of the posts on that matter, please. BTW
> I'm surprised some people criticize the NACE yet don't seem to have
> really read all the entries about it in the MA1014&1015 and spread false
> ideas/arguments about it. hmmm. More on this later.
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
> Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
> Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:03:35 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
>Ahh, the Doge. I like the Doge. He has a nice, flat head, and is short
>enough you can set your drink on it, and he won't spill a drop. 8-)
>
Not to mention the fact that he is imitating your dearest Thyatis :)
******************
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aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
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http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:36:04 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
How about if what they face outside of Alphatian society is even worse? Or similar...
How about if the Jennites practice slavery as well.
James Ruhland wrote:
> >
> >
> > goodwill the Jennites have for their liberators (and they are liberators,
> > really, if you think about it). He's <snip rosy scenario>
> >
> Which liberators? The Alphatians?
> Lets say I enslave you for, say, five years, and treat you brutally. Your
> back is scared with the marks of my lash, your foot mangled Kunta-Kinte
> style (I "hobbled" you after you tried to escape once), and other
> indignities.
> Ok, I'm letting you go now, and giving you the right to vote to join my
> clique as a wog. How greatful are you?
>
> Also, I feel the need to point out, once again, that the Alphatians who
> live in Esterhold were the least enlightened, most despotic and cruel (in
> general) of all Alphatians--the worst representatives of their society.
> So, one day they wake up and decide that their slaves should be equal? Is
> this reasonable? Can you think of a real-world analogy?
>
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:28:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Like I said, they have no say as to whether they want to remain part of
the
> Empire or not.
>
Thus: Revolt. De Bellum Civilis. Invasion from Jennite Skothia.
>
> All those corrupt, evil Alphies got ousted in the recent wars. And the
> enslaved Jennites even helped the Alphie forces under Broderick kick in
> those corrupt, evil rulers.
>
Again, unrealistic and rediculous.
>
> Ah - they arent the same Alphatians. The nutters who are oppressing the
> Jennites never actually joined the NACE (I think) and that was, what, 5
> years ago now? that they have been independent tyrannies?
>
So you have a population vanish, a new and strangely enlightened one takes
its place (funny, you know, from what I had read, their were a large number
of slaves in Metropolitan Alphatia itself, and I must have skipped the
parts where it discussed a nacient democracy movement), without any
troubles, and the formerly enslaved Jennites are just happy to join the
NACE.
Admittedly, some of this began with the TSR KWAs, but it was as pattently
absurd then, too. Of course, one could (as it seems both Ann Dupuis/TSR &
the Net Almanac team) alter the original canon, and say that Alphatia had
no vices (there was no slavery, only a few people opressed the Jennites and
they have no desire for liberty, etc, etc.)
Clearly, both in Canon & in the Net Almanac, this is the general opinion
(the "bad" things about Alphatia just seem to be droped/excused away/or
ignored), while the flaws of other nations are highlighted. . .. That's
fine. It's a different Alphatia from DotE then, though.
>
> Ive already answered this one - the Alphie constitution doesnt give them
a
> choice in the matter. They wouldnt be imperialistic if it did, now,
would
> they? :)
>
And I've already retorted that the "By Any Means Nessisary" solution would
then be the likely option, IMHO.
>
> Mmm. Thats why I like the idea of the Northern Ireland analog.
Esterhold
> would be a pain in the butt (and a diplomatic embarrassment) for Alphatia
> for years to come.
>
We shall see what becomes of it. . . .
> I like these "ranting screeds" of yours...
>
I'm glad you enjoyed it, 'cause this one that you replied to was one of the
ones I felt I had to appologize for (the general rude & obnoxious tone. I
don't retreat from the content of anything I've written, as you can see. .
. .)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:36:10 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> Now, before a certain Archmage points out that I won't recieve the same
>respect if it comes to that, I'd just like to say: yes, I know. . . .
>
At least you can receive a small consolation that the Master will probably
first kill everyone else before invading Thyatis :)
******************
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:49:07 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
>>I wish Emperor Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons.
>
>Ok. Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons for just a couple of
>seconds, than he's teleported back to Thyatis City.
>
Or even better, he receives an official summons to the Alphatian dungeons,
with Alphatian Imperial seal and all, signed personally by Eriadna.
Of course, there is no mention exactly *which* dungeons he is summoned to...
:)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:46:30 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
>Khanate etc. Wheras what`s his name, king cormyr,
> in FR is 20th(AD&D) and apart from one incident has NOT taken up the
>sword in anger. Training may get you to about 8th but no better. Let`s
Actually, King Azoun has participated in numerous wars: the Crusade against
Tuigans, the defeat of Gondegal the Lost King, the war against Scardale, the
conquest ("annexation") of Tilverton, etc. Not to mention his extensive
adventuring career while he was still a prince.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:40:51 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
>
> Though, about why I choose Monster Island as the new capital, it's
> certainly already well explained in the 1014 almanac and on my homepage.
>
Point me to the URL for the arguments, and I will read them.
I haven't read the entire thing yet, for a variety of reasons; I've
responded to arguments as they appear on this list, based on how they are
made.
Or, if you would prefer, and accepting for the moment that a neutral site
is/was needed, an explaination as to why a presumably monster-infested
island (unless they all disapeared or agreed to join NACE themselves. Will
they get the vote next year?) was chosen over the following possible sites:
Aasla Isles
Mt. Thera
Arogansa Island (advantage of central location)
Eagret Island
Aquas (ok, not presicely "neutral", but already HQ. of the Zandoran
version, and *very* centrally located, as well as invulnerable to attack by
anyone who doesn't have undersea capabilities)
Eadrin Island
Someplace on Bellisaria (remembering that, for example, to create the
"neutral site" of Washington, D.C., a snip of Maryland was separated from
that state. . .)
Veritloch Island.
None of these places have a notably hostile monster population. Again,
some method of "disapearing" the monsterous inhabitants of Monster Island,
or othrewise rendering them as docile as kittens, may have been found, but
I tend to ignore absurd deus ex machina solutions (it's better that way:
otherwise a lengthy tirade ensues instead).
> I'm surprised some people criticize the NACE yet don't seem to have
> really read all the entries about it in the MA1014&1015 and spread false
> ideas/arguments about it. hmmm. More on this later.
>
As I said, I respond to the arguments that are made in the MML, as they are
made. If a valid counterargument is made, then I will submit.
However, as most of these developments seem to have their origins in the
aforementioned deus ex machina "solutions" to evident problems. . . .
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:41:06 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>However, in Esterhold there will be (is?) a democratic government, which
>will pacify the Jennites living there (I also think they will be made free
>citizens by Favian Vern) and prevent all out guerrilla war, like in
Vietnam.
Of course, one has to ask the question: would horse-riding, savage
barbarians forgive the Alphatians for decades (centuries?) of oppression and
become interested in democracy, or would they rather happily slaughter those
poor fools who came to them offering citizenship?
Remember, the Jennites are wild barbarians, not modern Europeans. Democracy
would most likely hold little of interest to them. Especially since their
own 'primitive' society is more than likely democratic enough for their
tastes, without the bastard Alphatians in it.
******************
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aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:50:38 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> How about if what they face outside of Alphatian society is even worse?
Or > similar...
>
> How about if the Jennites practice slavery as well.
>
Against themselves? Plus, nomads don't usually practice chattel slavery.
They massively opress the indiginous population of any land they conquer,
but they look on that as their god (or Yamuga or whatever) given right;
IMO, the Jennites would rather return to their own way of life than support
the urban lifestyle the Alphatians brought with them, and would certainly
wish to be governed by their own traditions (Khans & clan leaders) than by
Alphatians in any form.
Again, though, all the counter-arguments advanced are deus ex machina type
arguments. These are all just basically arguments about why the DM should
be able to give his own character a Vorpal Sword: ways of disapearing a
problem rather than having to face it's natural consiquences, excuses for
why no bad thing can ever happen.
Hell, I'm not even that bad. IMC, a frothing Hinterlands revolt was pretty
bad, driving the Thyatians back to coastal enclaves and making then decide
to try and settle the Isles of Dread instead (which led to other problems.
. . .)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:51:25 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> > Now, before a certain Archmage points out that I won't recieve the same
> >respect if it comes to that, I'd just like to say: yes, I know. . . .
> >
> At least you can receive a small consolation that the Master will
probably
> first kill everyone else before invading Thyatis :)
>
Oh, yes. . .that's such heartwarming consolation. 8-)~
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:10:03 EDT
From: Dragon3125@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Death to AlphatiaLong live Karkemian supremacy!
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:12:34 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-08 18:25:46 EDT, you write:
<< > i have always used the big b as the same giant fish creature that so
terrified
> the milenians. so imc the big b usually roams more southern waters around
> davania. these roamings are infrequent as the beast goes dormant alot.
perhaps
> the sinking of alphatia stirred it up.
>
That's a very interesting interpretation. I like it. It makes a lot of
sense, put that way it also makes sense why the Big 'B' would swim back to
his ol' stomping grounds. >>
some of this list may remember a write up i posted on the big b some time
back. gives history, role, and reasons it does what it does. imo weird even by
my own standards. i'll dig around and see if i can find it for reposting.
given my status i fread retyping that sucker all over again.
alex
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:31:11 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
One of the first things to explain to me is where the idea that in the
heart of every Alphatian noble their is the previously unexpressed spirit
of progressive Democracy, just waiting to get out.
Where in any materiel extant has this nacient republican spirit first
showed itself (I.E. at least Thyatis has citizens and some of its Senate is
elective, so there as at least a kernel from which someone might argue a
reformist spirit might spring, but I have noticed nothing similar in
previously published materiel on Alphatia).
Also, though admitedly developments are accelerated in gameworlds, it
seems odd to me that Esterhold would in the course of a few years go from
despotic tyrranny of the worst sort to becoming an enlightened republic
filled with the democratic spirt.
Admittedly, I am ignorant, so if someone would be so kind as to explain
the backround for all these developments, I would be happy to be
enlightened.
Take another example: IMC, efforts to emancipate slaves/outlaw slavery are
under way. Note I said underway, not completed overnight, because of all
the problems (folks who don't want to give up their slaves, slaves who'd
rather kill their former owners if they got the chance, etc.), and for
these reasons the people involved are proceeding carefully.
It is just my opinion that sociological upheavals aren't completed
overnight, and where they are tried (French Revolution, "New Soviet Man",
"Great Leap Forward" & "Cultural Revolution," the Khmer Rouge, to mention a
few attempts IRL in various areas), the results are usually not. . .
.tranquil. . .to put it kindly.
It is, to my ignorant and unschooled thinking, unrealistic to think that
it would occur in Esterhold, assuming even that there *does* exist in the
heart of every Alphatian noble a democrat waiting to burst forth, and that
Esterhold would be the place where they'd start their experiment in
Democracy.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:10:29 -0500
From: Brunciak <brunciak@erols.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystarans and Byzantium
I've been reading reading the posts and some people raised a few good
points on why Mystarans might be fascinated with Byzantium. Well,
here's my take on it-
A great deal of Mystara has that Medieval feeling to it. To many
people, D&D is a game set in a timeline which resembles the Middle
Ages. With that said, what seems to be the most fascinating culture of
Earth's European Middle Ages? To many, it's the Byzantine Empire.
Another thing is that Mystara is so unique that for its fans, only a
civilization as unique, and to many mysterious, as that of the
Byzantines seems to be interesting.
There are other civlizations which we could begin to examine such as the
Islamic world and China. Both were either rivals or competitors-Islam
mostly but the China also inspired envy and admiration among Byzantines.
What's not to be fascinated with when talking about the Byzantine's?
When people had audiences with the Emperor, he sat on the "throne of
Solomon" which has machinery in it and mechanical birds that sang and
lions that roared. To many people, this seems like stuff that could
only be possible in fantasy worlds and I think that it is this reason
why many are fans of the Empire.
I'm not a mind reader so I don't know why each individual likes the
Byzantine Emipre-SO REPLY WITH YOUR THOUGHTS!
BOB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:34:17 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> Like I said, they have no say as to whether they want to remain part of
>the
>> Empire or not.
>>
>Thus: Revolt. De Bellum Civilis. Invasion from Jennite Skothia.
Fair enough. The original debate was that I was in favour of a less overt,
terrorist type revolt on behalf of the Jennites rather than an out an out
full scale civil war.
>> All those corrupt, evil Alphies got ousted in the recent wars. And the
>> enslaved Jennites even helped the Alphie forces under Broderick kick in
>> those corrupt, evil rulers.
>>
>Again, unrealistic and rediculous.
Union and Confedaracy? Blacks fighting in the Union Army?
>So you have a population vanish, a new and strangely enlightened one takes
>its place (funny, you know, from what I had read, their were a large number
>of slaves in Metropolitan Alphatia itself, and I must have skipped the
>parts where it discussed a nacient democracy movement), without any
>troubles, and the formerly enslaved Jennites are just happy to join the
>NACE.
Well, the "democracy movement" is actually a scheme invented by a crackpot
wizard, as far as I can guess. Being Alphatia, the crackpot gets a chance
to try his new invention out...
As for the slaves on Metropolitan Alphatia - there is no metropolitan
Alphatia any more...
OK - nitpicking. You got me there...
> Admittedly, some of this began with the TSR KWAs, but it was as pattently
>absurd then, too. Of course, one could (as it seems both Ann Dupuis/TSR &
>the Net Almanac team) alter the original canon, and say that Alphatia had
>no vices (there was no slavery, only a few people opressed the Jennites and
>they have no desire for liberty, etc, etc.)
> Clearly, both in Canon & in the Net Almanac, this is the general opinion
>(the "bad" things about Alphatia just seem to be droped/excused away/or
>ignored), while the flaws of other nations are highlighted. . .. That's
>fine. It's a different Alphatia from DotE then, though.
Well, I agree with you that Alphatia cant be the holy Pure Empire of Sweet
and Light - though they may think they are... (America again :) sorry,
another bad joke)
Seriously though - it could again be a case of governmental good intentions,
but not going so far... Back to Northern Ireland (its on the news at the
moment, so its in my mind) the British Government isnt being "evil" with
regard to its policy there. But a lot of Irish no doubt disagree with that
one. Maybe the Alphies would feel really confused if the Jennites dont want
to be a part of their glorious Empire, and take it upon themselves to
educate them sufficiently to become happy citizens...
>> I like these "ranting screeds" of yours...
>>
>I'm glad you enjoyed it, 'cause this one that you replied to was one of the
>ones I felt I had to appologize for (the general rude & obnoxious tone. I
>don't retreat from the content of anything I've written, as you can see. .
>. .)
Me too...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:22:40 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
- -----
>My only real thought on the NACE, is that the abbreviation as a name is
rather
>anachronistic. I have been guilty of this in the past, as have others, but
it
>does sound rather odd for a fantasy setting.
I thought the title of New Alphatian Confederated Empire really cool. After
all, it is a confederated empire... And calling it the NACE just reinforces
my belief that Alphatia = Mystaran America...
Cheerz
ROB (known to his friends as Anachronistic Rob :)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:49:45 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
- -----
> One of the first things to explain to me is where the idea that in the
>heart of every Alphatian noble their is the previously unexpressed spirit
>of progressive Democracy, just waiting to get out.
> Where in any materiel extant has this nacient republican spirit first
>showed itself (I.E. at least Thyatis has citizens and some of its Senate is
>elective, so there as at least a kernel from which someone might argue a
>reformist spirit might spring, but I have noticed nothing similar in
>previously published materiel on Alphatia).
Its just one nut wizards (in)sane idea. The rest of the nobility think hes
a crackpot, but they're going to let him have his hour...
Alphatia has never been an absolute Empire. Each kingdom has semiautonomy,
can exert a fair amount of pressure on the Empress, has the ability to raise
its own armies etc. In addition, of course, there are the 1000 wizards, a
monitoring body. Fair enough - one person cannot run an Empire of such size
as a despotism (Civ 2 terminology, so you'll like it...:), and so you have a
complex bureacracy to run the show...
The above is from the PWAs. Point is, its a complex governmental system,
with some degree of voting involved in it, so democracy might not be too far
off - its not the absolute system you imply (no Senate etc.). Historically
some form of democracy has surfaced at various times, if anything Mystara
seems rather devoid of the concept.
> Also, though admitedly developments are accelerated in gameworlds, it
>seems odd to me that Esterhold would in the course of a few years go from
>despotic tyrranny of the worst sort to becoming an enlightened republic
>filled with the democratic spirt.
> Admittedly, I am ignorant, so if someone would be so kind as to explain
>the backround for all these developments, I would be happy to be
>enlightened.
I think the idea is that this wiz has this cunning new plan for a
governmental system. The rest of the Alphies probably consider Esterhold to
be a dead loss anyway, so what the hell! He might as well get his chance.
There certainly is no democratic spirit present in Alphatia - its merely an
experiment. However, the Jennites may well consider themselves better off -
they get to govern themselves, have free control of local policy, and so on.
They have to contribute to the Alphatian Army, and the Imperial Treasury (ie
tax) but aside from that... If the situation destabilises further the
Alphatian Central Government may even relax some of these responsibility to
keep the Jennites happy.
>"Great Leap Forward" & "Cultural Revolution," the Khmer Rouge, to mention a
>few attempts IRL in various areas), the results are usually not. . .
>.tranquil. . .to put it kindly.
> It is, to my ignorant and unschooled thinking, unrealistic to think that
>it would occur in Esterhold, assuming even that there *does* exist in the
>heart of every Alphatian noble a democrat waiting to burst forth, and that
>Esterhold would be the place where they'd start their experiment in
>Democracy.
The Alphies are doing this as an experiment - only a fantasy empire like
Alphatia would ever consider setting up an entire government administration
as a mere "experiment". But from what Ive picked up from elsewhere on the
MML that seems to be the sort of thing mad Alphatians get up to...
I never said the change would be easy. Quite the contrary - i was up for
some terrorism on the part of the Jennites.
I think one of my main reasons for supporting this view is that it would be
slightly different from the usual round of warfare that goes on.
Cheerz
ROB
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #489
********************************
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mystara-digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 490
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
[MYSTARA] - Fold out mapsheet of B10
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
RE: [MYSTARA] - Wishes
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
Re: [MYSTARA] - Progeny
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] -(Long) Fw: Message not deliverable
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:19:10 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
- ----
>>>I wish Emperor Thincol is summoned to the Alphatian dungeons.
>Or even better, he receives an official summons to the Alphatian dungeons,
>with Alphatian Imperial seal and all, signed personally by Eriadna.
Now thats funny. I love it!!!
ROB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:25:50 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> Also, I feel the need to point out, once again, that the
Alphatians who
>> live in Esterhold were the least enlightened, most despotic and cruel (in
>> general) of all Alphatians--the worst representatives of their society.
>> So, one day they wake up and decide that their slaves should be
equal? Is
>> this reasonable? Can you think of a real-world analogy?
Actually I can. If you reckon that the evil, despotic, slaving original
governments of Esterhold are the Confederacy (ie American Civil War) and the
mainstream Alphatian forces are the Union, thats not such a bad analogy.
Good and evil aside, of course (I'm not translating that bit over to the
RW - just a description of the Mystaran governments).
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:06:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Rob wrote:
> all, it is a confederated empire... And calling it the NACE just reinforces
> my belief that Alphatia = Mystaran America...
Bah. NACE sounds like a dog repellant. And really interferes with the
whole "fantasy aspect" of Mystara.
Acronyms are NOT needed.
What if the Realms people stared calling Kara-Tur KT, or Waterdeep was WD.
Jeez. What next?
Max IV - Renaming the Republic of Darokin, ROD.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:02:55 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
>
> I thought the title of New Alphatian Confederated Empire really cool.
>
I for one dk why it can't just be called the Alphatian Empire. *shrug*
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:05:24 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
>
> Actually I can. If you reckon that the evil, despotic, slaving original
> governments of Esterhold are the Confederacy (ie American Civil War) and
the
> mainstream Alphatian forces are the Union, thats not such a bad analogy.
>
Yah, and that all happened overnight, with minimal bloodshead (oh, just a
short "Glorious Revolution" type war, and *poof* problem eliminated), and
afterwards everything was benign, with everyone living in happy harmony. .
Even assuming you accept the analogy (remembering that the proportion of
slaves in the American south fell far short of 70-80% will be a start.)
. . .
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:15:05 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
>
> Union and Confedaracy? Blacks fighting in the Union Army?
>
Your analogy does not fit. Remember, that war was long, bloody, and
distructive, not short and full of sweetness and light.
Also, you had people who are *already* full of the republican/democratic
spirit fighting that war. Alphatians ARE NOT described ANYWHERE as being
nacient democrats, or even full of a spirit of republicanism in any form.
>
> As for the slaves on Metropolitan Alphatia - there is no metropolitan
> Alphatia any more...
>
The point to that is not that Metropolitan Alphatia exists or doesn't, but
that the attitude that the Alphatian social order
(Wizard--Spellcaster--Wog--Slave) is not restricted to Esterhold, but a
universal Alphatian attitude dating back at least 2,000 years (and quite
possibly to "old Alphatia"), and it isn't going to disapear overnight.
>
> Seriously though - it could again be a case of governmental good
intentions,
> but not going so far... Back to Northern Ireland (its on the news at the
> moment, so its in my mind) the British Government isnt being "evil" with
> regard to its policy there.
>
Again, the difference being that the British Government is a
parlamentary/republican one (the House of Lords & Monarchy
notwithstanding), while the same cannot be said of Alphatians anywhere, and
the concept of how you deal with problems is thus different. Alphatians are
unlikely to see their slaves as potential equals in any way.
Remember, IRL, when "democracy" started, it didn't begin by granting
everyone equality under the law and the vote. This stuff was at first
restricted to landholders, and certanly not extended to "Barbarian
Outlanders" (I.E. the Jennites, even though if anyone is the "outlanders"
it would be the Alphatians, but the Alphatians wouldn't percieve it that
way, since they "stole Esterhold fair and square").
Only gradually, over time (over a *long* time, IRL, in fact), was the
franchise extended. Think of what started parlimentary concepts in the
Western world in the first place: the Magna Carta, which gave *some* voice
in government to a *highly* restricted class; the nobility.
That an egalitarian society would spring forth in Esterhold like Athena
out of Zeus' head is. . . . .
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:26:29 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> Its just one nut wizards (in)sane idea. The rest of the nobility think
hes
> a crackpot, but they're going to let him have his hour...
>
Are they? Would a Southern Planter look kindly on an idea that will spark
"impure thoughts" in their slaves and servants?
The entire thing is absurd.
> Alphatia has never been an absolute Empire. Each kingdom has
semiautonomy,
>
Each Kingdom has semiautonomy, but all are constitutionally restricted to
government by nobles (generally mages, though in colonies not nessisarily),
the Alphatian social order seems broadly accepted by thouse who matter (the
nobility), and ideas of sudden changes in it don't have any precident that
I can locate anywhere.
Again, in my opinion this inovation has been designed specifically so that
the NACE will face no dificulties. IMO, if anywhere in the NACE would be
likely to have something along these lines occur, it would be vastly more
likely to be Bellissaria (with the independant minded, "don't tread on me"
attitude of the population), and vastly more likely to be a "bottom up"
rather than "top down" movement (I.E. the commoners demanding an increased
say in exchange for the new demands placed on them in supporting the NACE,
with concessions grudgingly granted by the nobility, rather than a reform
imposed from above).
Also, while there was 'some degree of voting" or input in the old
Alphatian system, the "representatives" (if you can even call them that)
were not chosen by election, but based on magical talent.
>
>
> There certainly is no democratic spirit present in Alphatia - its merely
an
> experiment. However, the Jennites may well consider themselves better
off -
> they get to govern themselves, have free control of local policy, and so
on.
> They have to contribute to the Alphatian Army, and the Imperial Treasury
(ie
> tax) but aside from that... <sniped>
>
Again, IMO, just a way to painlessly eliminate what was likely to be NACEs
biggest problem. A little minor low level terrorism from "extremists"
instead of a full blown revolt. IMO, again, just a way of achieving a "best
case/rosy scenario". . .and it is telling that you have to "argue" even for
that much, which means that some or most think they can avoid even that.
And folks wonder why I'm critical of the Net Almanac. . . . .
If you think that is realistic, then I propose that Thyatis immediately
emancipate all slaves, direct election for senators, and an Emperor on the
Milenian model. Does that sound realistic? I thought not. . . . .
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:41:07 EDT
From: Dleggend@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Fold out mapsheet of B10
I just got B10: A Dark Night's Terror but it was missing its fold out sheet
that contained the maps.
Can somebody with B10 make a copy of the foldout mapsheet and send it to me?
And if possible the counters too <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/dleggend/">
Enter Dleggend's Page</A> .
I would appreciate it
Please respond to me directly and not to the list.
Thanks
DLeggend@aol.com
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/dleggend/">Enter Dleggend's Page</A>
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:42:39 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> Its just one nut wizards (in)sane idea.
>
This is what I mean by the deus ex machina aspect of the whole thing; out
of the blue, one nut wizard has this idea for governmental reform.
Is it going to be government by lottery? no
Government by rolling dice to decide policy? no
Why, it's a government that will magically (well, this is Alphatia) make
an otherwise intractable problem disapear as if it were merely an illusion.
Very nice. Again, that's like a DM who also plays having his character
stumble upon a Ring of Infinite Wishes (of the "Satan Wish" kind [see Best
of the Dragon II for description: basically it is a Wish without limits],
even).
How very nice for him. He can come up with all kinds of arguments in favor
of this idea, and why it is "plausable" for his character, but it is
rather. . . . .strange. . . .that he would have such boundless luck.
"an insane wizard wants to do it" is just an excuse for making an
unprecidented change in the Alphatian social order which just happens to
have the side effect of making their biggest potential problem disapear
without a trace.
Again, unrealistic that the Jennite ex-slaves would want to remain in
NACE. And yes, I know "the NACE constitution says they can't leave". SO?
IMO, they'd say "thanks for freeing us from the opression YOU imposed on
us for so long. I think we'll decide our own affairs from now on. Please
don't come back," and if the Alphatians demured, then it would be war.
"Gratitude" would only go so far. We're talking people who prefer a
nomadic way of life, have no reason to submit to Alphatian control (vote or
no, I mean, why agree to send troops to fight in their wars at all? Why
help your former overlords. . .and ALL Alphatians would be viewed as such,
and as Solmyr pointed out, the Jennites in their own social order have all
the democracy they'd likely want, and would not feel the need to be able to
vote their former opressors into continued power).
Ok, so these latest ones "liberated" them from the oppression that they
themselves (the "liberators") helped to keep in place for centuries. How
grateful would *YOU* be? IMO, they'd much rather give them the boot,
politely, and return to the Jennite's traditional way of life, free from
interfierance by these outlanders.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:02:53 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> I never said the change would be easy. Quite the contrary - i was up for
> some terrorism on the part of the Jennites.
>
Yes, but your reasoning is flawed, basing it on an analogy with Northern
Ireland. In Northern Ireland the Irish Catholics were the minority. The
reason a "Northern Ireland" existed at all was because it, unlike the other
Irish counties, voted to remain part of Great Britain, while the rest voted
to separate.
In Esterhold the vast majority of the population is Jennite. You say that
the former Alphatian population (the opressors) were driven out, so this
means that by this point the population is almost exclusively Jennite (now,
before some claim, as no doubt they will, that displaced and very nice,
enlightened, unbigoted Alphatians settled there after the war to provide a
new Alphatian population base, I'll respectfully disent; see below).
They would be highly unlikely, for reasons already described, to want to
provide any support whatsoever to the empire of their former opressors.
Now, to counter the argument before it appears: No sane Alphatian refugee
would be likely to move to Esterhold, because of it's horrid nature.
Alphatian refugees would be much more likely to settle on the Isle of Dawn
(that's where most of them would have been, or would have been near, at the
end of the war) or Bellissaria (a nice, quiet place, as opposed to a hotbed
of insurection and strife). The idea that they'd enjoy retireing to
Esterhold is not rational.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:13:36 -0700
From: "Harvey, MichaelX" <michaelx.harvey@intel.com>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Wishes
Wishes seem to me like they don't fit the rest of the D&D magic system very
well. All the other spells are very predictable and reliable; you cast a
spell and you know exactly what it will do (excepting for saving throws and
damage dice). A few spells have random results (like reincarnation) but even
these are guaranteed to work in certain ways with a limited number of
options.
Wishes are totally different. You cast a wish and you have *no* guarantee
that it will do what you want, and often the DM is actively trying to
subvert your intent. I realize this is done in the interest of game balance,
because it is so powerful, but it is jarringly at odds with the rest of the
system. I don't propose that wishes should be eliminated; I like them (and
IMO one of the coolest things about OD&D is that clerics can get wishes),
and have an idea on a way to modify them so they work better:
Many other RPGs have "freeform" magic; the wizard simply tells the GM what
he wants to do, and the GM determines consequences, difficulty, limits, etc.
The wizard then casts the spell if he still wants to. This is realistic; the
wizard *should* know what his limitations are, and talking it over helps the
player and GM to come to an understanding.
Wishes could be done this way. The player proposes an effect to the DM. The
DM in turn gives the player a rough idea of what will happen, assigns some
drawbacks and side effects, and then lets the player decide whether to try
it or not. Fairly minor wishes (equivalent to a 9th level spell or less)
might often be granted easily -- but major effects might require a wish,
three other spells, a two-day ritual, and a sacrifice of a magic item. A
crafty GM might just say, "a single wish is not enough" and leave it to the
*player* to invent a plausible and fair means of accomplishing his ends (as
the player proposes various means which the GM vetoes, his character is
working day after day in his study attempting to discover a solution to the
problem).
This would eliminate uncertainty and also add flavor to the game -- plus it
makes abuse completely impossible (unless the DM is very lenient). Wishes
gained through a magic item or granted to a non-mage would use the
traditional method of exact wording, since the recipient has little or no
control over the magic. (In fact, following these guidelines, Wish could
even be a first level spell, with power level adjusted according to the
level of the caster). Thoughts?
Mike
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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:54:21 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes
>
> Wishes are totally different. You cast a wish and you have *no* guarantee
> that it will do what you want, and often the DM is actively trying to
> subvert your intent.
>
That (the limits) is because the spell itself is so wide open, created
*intentionally* to allow players to break the rules in creative ways, but
the very flexibility means it is open to interpretation by DMs (and others)
as to what occurs.
> Many other RPGs have "freeform" magic; the wizard simply tells the GM
what
> he wants to do, and the GM determines consequences, difficulty, limits,
etc.
> The wizard then casts the spell if he still wants to. This is realistic;
the
> wizard *should* know what his limitations are, and talking it over helps
the
> player and GM to come to an understanding.
>
Something like this might be nice for 3rd Edition, but then all my lovely
spellbook junk would be out the window.
> Wishes could be done this way. The player proposes an effect to the DM.
The
> DM in turn gives the player a rough idea of what will happen, assigns
some
> drawbacks and side effects, and then lets the player decide whether to
try
> it or not.
>
Yah, but the uncertainity also has a certain charm to it. Remember, the
Wizard (or Priest in D&D) is going, in effect, into "uncharted waters" with
a Wish, and he doesn't nessisarily know the outcome. To a *certain* degree
as DM I generally work with players (since their character, if a Wizard or
Priest at least, is schooled in magic, and most players aren't geniuses--no
offence intended, but by that I mean their character is theoretically
smarter than they are), giving them some idea of what they might expect,
and making suggestions if their are obvious loopholes that their character
could reasonably be expected to avoid.
Also, only really nefarious Wishes should be actively subverted. There was
a good Dragon article (I think it was in TD) on Wishes a long time ago, and
the rule that stuck with me is that a Wish will take the most direct
path/using the least energy/"effort" to achieve the results (if the results
are achievable) requested.
This tones down on some of the more obnoxious twisting in some ways. Also,
DMO: High Level campaigns has some usefull stuff on the powers & limits of
Wishes, pp 75-76.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:50:10 -0400
From: Chris <cbarnett@cococo.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
Jesse LaBranche wrote:
> > For my part, I created a magic elven sword "Lomilialor" with some
> >characteristics of that type of "wood" from The Land. I got the idea when
> I
> >read about the wooden elven blades in The Elves of Alfheim gaz.
> > Jim Sahlas
> > P.S. I loved the Chronicles, and have read them twice. Donaldson is
> >apparently working on the next trilogy.
>
What exactly do you mean the next trilogy, another series in The Land?
Oh, and have you read the 2 book set Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides
Through. I think
that was the titles!
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 05:14:24 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Progeny
In a message dated 98-07-09 09:42:18 EDT, cybermaster@earthlink.net writes:
> In the Glantri boxed set, in the back of the book "The Grimoire" it has
> these tables for use with half-human/half-magical races other than Elves,
> could someone give me a few examples of those races? Thanks.
They aren't really half-human -- more like mostly human with some trace
of magical ancestry. No races are defined -- what you do is create a
human, elf, or half-elf character and then roll on various tables for special
abilities and defects.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:54:14 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
Chris wrote:
>What exactly do you mean the next trilogy, another series in The Land?
>Oh, and have you read the 2 book set Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides
>Through. I think
>that was the titles!
Well Chris, are you aware that there are already two trilogies? I didn't
read the 2 book set because I needed a break (mentally) after the two
trilogies.
In case you don't know it here are the titles of the two trilogies:
Lord Foul's Bane, The Illearth War, The Power that Preserves
The One Tree, The Wounded Land, White Gold Wielder
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:38:59 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
>I thought the title of New Alphatian Confederated Empire really cool.
After
>all, it is a confederated empire... And calling it the NACE just
reinforces
>my belief that Alphatia = Mystaran America...
Actually, the NACE is a mix of the US and the EU, transposed to a
fantasy setting (with some twists because it has its own history and
legacies, from Alphatia).
I too like the complete name, it sounds grand. Alphatian, sorta.
For those that don't like the acronym NACE, you can instead spell it
Nace and use it as a country name (it's becomes just a word, no
different than Thyatis or Wendar, for instance).
Also keep in mind that not everyone calls NACE that way. To most
non-Alphatians, it's simple Alphatia, as they do not make a difference
between the old empire and the new one. To the citizens of the NACE, it
varies. Many people also still call it Alphatia (esp. commoners of the
most septentrional colonies), or the Empire, or the Confederacy (or its
variations, Alphatian Empire and Alphatian Confederacy), with the use of
the word confederacy being mostly restricted to those literate and up to
date on events going on outside of their small comuunity (ie, not your
basic fisherman). People among the gentry/nobility tend to call it the
New Alphatian Empire or the New Alphatian Confederate Empire (with the
latter being more fashionable, though some nostalgics stick to the older
name). People in the military consider the name too lengthy and prefer
the more efficient acronym NACE to the flashy whole stuff. This trend
has caught up with many officials on Ionace (and also the commoners on
Ionace), and other places where decisions are made/officials are often
encountered, like Aquas, the entourage of Favian Vern in Esterhold, and
sometime at the courts of Bellissaria.
Of course, you may handle it otherwise IYC.
[A reminder for myself and other net-almanac writers for the NACE: this
should be included in the next almanac]
Hey Rob, you did a very good job at defending/explaining the way NACE
and especially Esterhold was presented in the net almanacs. You
definetely have read it thoroughly, understood what I was doing with it,
and enjoyed it. James, you should definetely read it before you dismiss
it "just like that", because the situation is not as simple and
certainly not as rosy as you seem to believe. Oh, and the link to it all
can be found in my sig.
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:39:21 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
>I thought the title of New Alphatian Confederated Empire really cool.
After
>all, it is a confederated empire... And calling it the NACE just
reinforces
>my belief that Alphatia = Mystaran America...
Actually, the NACE is a mix of the US and the EU, transposed to a
fantasy setting (with some twists because it has its own history and
legacies, from Alphatia).
I too like the complete name, it sounds grand. Alphatian, sorta.
For those that don't like the acronym NACE, you can instead spell it
Nace and use it as a country name (it's becomes just a word, no
different than Thyatis or Wendar, for instance).
Also keep in mind that not everyone calls NACE that way. To most
non-Alphatians, it's simple Alphatia, as they do not make a difference
between the old empire and the new one. To the citizens of the NACE, it
varies. Many people also still call it Alphatia (esp. commoners of the
most septentrional colonies), or the Empire, or the Confederacy (or its
variations, Alphatian Empire and Alphatian Confederacy), with the use of
the word confederacy being mostly restricted to those literate and up to
date on events going on outside of their small comuunity (ie, not your
basic fisherman). People among the gentry/nobility tend to call it the
New Alphatian Empire or the New Alphatian Confederate Empire (with the
latter being more fashionable, though some nostalgics stick to the older
name). People in the military consider the name too lengthy and prefer
the more efficient acronym NACE to the flashy whole stuff. This trend
has caught up with many officials on Ionace (and also the commoners on
Ionace), and other places where decisions are made/officials are often
encountered, like Aquas, the entourage of Favian Vern in Esterhold, and
sometime at the courts of Bellissaria.
Of course, you may handle it otherwise IYC.
[A reminder for myself and other net-almanac writers for the NACE: this
should be included in the next almanac]
Hey Rob, you did a very good job at defending/explaining the way NACE
and especially Esterhold was presented in the net almanacs. You
definetely have read it thoroughly, understood what I was doing with it,
and enjoyed it. James, you should definetely read it before you dismiss
it "just like that", because the situation is not as simple and
certainly not as rosy as you seem to believe. Oh, and the link to it all
can be found in my sig.
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:50:38 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] -(Long) Fw: Message not deliverable
>Wear armor? You must be jesting.
> My "ideal" character concept would be no weapons, no armor, no magic
>items. . .of course, that ideal is impractical.
On this note, I believe that somewhere X# of levels= +1 to hit. I'm not
sure whether this is an actual rule, where it's at, or anything else, but if
it applies to monsters, then it should apply to characters.
When I did up the Bloodguard for a campaign, and in several instances
where I do not let a PC class have armor, I make them effectively +1 to hit
per 4 levels. (+5 at 20th level). In a D&D setting, I'd probably change it
to +1/7 levels.
This is not a to hit/damage bonus, just the ability to hit creatures as
though using a weapon with that plus.
>> Also, the game isn't about keeping your ass from getting kicked. It's
>about
>> role-playing. I mean nobody wanted to get their ass kicked in the Roman
>> empire, but every hero didn't go running around with two Spatha did they?
>That was my point.
>However, not getting your ass kicked is also very important, and no one is
>likely to deliberately handycap themselves in any extreme way.
> I think you may have *somewhat* misjudged my post, because by and large I
>was agreeing with you. As you said, few people fight Florentine, so when I
>adopted that as my character's style it was partly for uniqueness and
>partly for effectiveness (as I said, why be uneffective? Combining both
>efficiency and distinctiveness is a good idea), but as I also said, if
>everyone is wielding a Longsword, then I don't want to, and if everyone is
>wielding two of them, then I certainly don't want to.
You're right, I completely misconstrued what you were saying. My apologies
:-)
>> Here we've got agreement. I prefer this one myself, but it is decidedly
>> weaker than the Two Weapons style.
>Hmmmmn. . .I'm not positive about that. Remember, the Two Weapons style
>doesn't *double* attacks (I.E. a 13th level fighter isn't making 5 attacks
>per Round, but 7/2), still advantageous, but Weapon Mastery can allow
>someone with one weapon to duplicate that feet. Perhaps in the 3rd Edition
>they should make the Two Weapons style cost two Proficiency slots though,
>because it is the most "advantageous".
Hopefully (I know wishful thinking), there won't be a 3rd edition. I'm
tired of buying a whole set of books just so they can FUBAR a system, then
kill them and bring out a new set. I'm not buying a 3rd edition.
I've already done this D&D to AD&D, 1st to 2nd, Mystara-Greyhawk-Realms.
If I buy another system I'll say "F" it and go on to Alternity or Champions.
> Mastery can aslo be achieved by a character with Two Weapons, making for
>an "awesome" 9/2 attacks, potentially; but by this point such a character
>has used all their proficiencies (or almost all) on one weapon, being
>inproficient in virtually everything else, which has numerous drawbacks in
>and of itself. So no Warrior character can be made "perfect" in every way
>(unless you're talking Dark Sun Gladiators).
Alright, I don't have the PO's available (Don't like them anyway), so using
the
PHB and CFH, we've got either a high dex, or the "Ambi-dexterity"
proficiency for one character (Mastered) using two longswords.
(d8+3 damage/atk, 3 atks, +3 to hit)
(22.5 pts average damage. 12-33 point range)
The other character is using a longsword and shield (Mastered) with Weapon
and Shield specialization.
(d8+3 damage on 2 atks, d3 damage on the other, 3atks, +3 to hit)
(17 pts average damage. 9-25 point range, 5% harder to hit).
Both characters are 14th level.
Should character 1 give up the extra attack to parry (15 average, 8-22) and
he's 40% harder to hit. If he is hit, then he gets that parry roll against
his opponents AC if his opponent still hits him.
I still see the weapon and shield as weaker than the two weapons as shown
above. Now, add in Elves, High Mastery, Grand Mastery, Bladesong, or Weapon
of Choice and watch the Two Weapons get even nastier in comparison. Then
there's all of the above...
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:56:04 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
I remember reading in a previous post that people see the Mystara symbol
on a product and just go on past it. (Of course there are those of us who
get it just because of that symbol, but we're in the minority).
Well, I don't have a problem with "generic" material, but I think that
the Mystara, Greyhawk, and Realms symbols should be on any of this type of
material.
Also, it should be written from the aspects of each of the places
symbolized, with a "flavor" from each as well.
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #490
********************************
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mystara-digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 491
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Ionace as capital
[MYSTARA] - The Night Below
[MYSTARA] - Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Save Mystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D AD&D
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Progeny
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Me Too post
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:41:52 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ionace as capital
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>> There was a good reason for putting it on Monster's Island, I think
it
>was
>> because Monster's Island is neutral ground, something like having
>> Washington in a separate district and in one of the States.
>>
>Eagret Island is neutral ground, and it doesn't have the charm that
Monster
>Island does.
> There are lots of little islands out there that would be more
suitable, if
>you want "neutral ground".
> Rebuilding an entire new capital in a monster-infested wilderness
while
>you're trying to rebuild your civilization strikes me as a fairly bad
idea.
Quoting from MA1014:
<< Description: The New Alphatian Council decides that they
should have a new capital which is easier to reach for
commoners than Aquas, yet still be a hard place to invade.
After much deliberation, Monster Island is chosen as a
likely spot. The island is inhabited by monsters and rugged
terrain, which makes it hard to invade. As well, the
abandonned dwarven city of Denwarf-Hurgon makes the perfect
defensive position. The location is also agreed upon as it
belongs to none of the kingdoms of the New Alphatian Empire,
making it the ideal neutral grounds.>>
I agree that it is not very detailed why they chose Monster Island as a
location. I know I already argued it with some fellow almanac writers,
let's see if I can remember it all (if I forget some good arguments, you
can back me up guys).
So let's first remember the Alphatian situation at the time. Alphatia
had sunk, the empire apart. Insane Zandor had been trying to reunite the
remnants, mostly by force and for his own glory. Thyatis had conquered a
great part of the former colonies, and only the intervention of Thothia
had stabilized the borders. Nobody but a few leaders knew that Alphatia
was alive in the HW.
The NACE needed a new capital. So, where?
No one ever lobbyied in favor of Norwold, Esterhold, the Alatians,
Thothia, the ruined city states of the IoD, or Qeodhar, all of them for
obvious reasons. Nobody ever lobbyied for the Yanniveys either, though
IMHO they could have been considered (neutral ground etc) but they have
their flaws (notorious haven for criminals).
So that leaves us Aquas, Bellissaria, Floating Ar, and the remnants of
the former Alphatian mainland.
Aquas would be appealing (it's strong, defensible, was part of Alphatia,
already has buildings to house a government thanks to Zandor). It also
has three major quirks: It's not neutral ground, it's not easily
accessible (undersea; remember that not all kings are wizards anymore),
and most of all it was the power base of Zandor.
Bellissaria has some advantages too. It's easily defended, it has room.
The fact that it's not neutral land might be bypassed by creating
neutral territory out of part of it (like for Washington DC). Yet it's
not central, way out of the major shipping lane (arguably though, as it
depends on where exactly on Bellissaria). If you look at a map and
locate Bellissaria, you'll see that it's not really central to the
colonies (though you might argue that neither is Wash. DC) as are Aquas
and Monster Island. Besides, you should take into account the fact that
the council knows of th eexistence of Alphatia in the HW. The better
route to their knowlegde (with the Pit down and the Sundsvall
Mealstrom's capabilities not yet discovered) is through the North Pole.
Bellissaria is very far from the north pole, and from the SM where there
are according to Favian Vern more ripstorms than elsewhere that allow
skyship into th evoid and from there into the HW (via th enorth pole;
see MA1015 [the Joint polar Expedition] for more on that subject).
Floating Ar is very well located, but it is not neutral ground. Besides,
it's not easily accessible (you need skyship or magic). And the most
annoying of it all is that it has so little land masse. Where would you
put your buildings? All flying isalnds that have enough room for that
already have a wizard tower. Another problem is that Floating Ar is
certainly one of the most conservative of the NACE members, as it once
was part of Alphatian mainland and is full of haughty wizards that
probably do not like the NACE that much (that's where the name New
Alphatian Empire would most widely be used, see another post).
The remnants of mainland Alphatia, now scattered mountainous islands in
the Alphatian Sea, are neutral land. Plus, they are very symbolic:
remember, the NACE is trying to rebuild the former Alphatian Empire, and
thus giving the former colonies something in common (ie, remembering
them their common alphatian heritage) is a good way to achieve this.
Besides, these islands are by definition central to the empire. They are
at the cross of the shipping lane (though these shipping lanes have to
be reestablished).
The main disadvantage of these isles is that they are (except for
Monster Island) rather small, and very mountainous, so not easily
settled/built upon. They are quite isolated and thus it may take time
before they get reinforcements in case of an attack by a foreign power;
OTOH, they are easily defended because they are mountainous, and any
invading army would have a difficult time fielding an army if the isle
are well defended (that's the advantage of defending on mountains, like
dwarves). The only annoyance in such a case would be an aerial atatck,
but few countries have much of an airfleet but the HK and to a degree
the Thyatians, and yet the Alphatians have their own airships and hope
to soon have enough of them rebuilt to face any possible threat. So, an
enemy would have to have a fleet to bring its troops, then infantry to
(painfully) assault them, and if possible an airfleet. Not many
countries have that, and those that do are unlikely to use it to attack
the new capital (too costly for such little gain).
On top of that, Monster Island has additional advantages (and
disadvantages, too) to your typical Aslaa or Egret island. It's bigger,
already has a small city, Sanctuary, with all the access to supplies and
shipping lanes it implies (and mercenaries). It also has the ruins of
Monster Island, which provide buidings available immediately. Plus, it
already has troops stationed there. the main problem is all those
monsters claimed to inhabit the island. But so far they have not been
much of a problem to Sanctuary, more of an annoyance. So, the council
underestimated how monster-infested it was, and thought they would get
away with it (maybe with using more troops to clean the area). In the
MA1015, there are in fact problems with those monsters, and the council
(at least Broderick) are beginning to realize that maybe the went a
little too fast on that.
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:55:30 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Hello all,
I'm about to run the Night Below campaign and I was wondering if anyone
on this list has run it. Where did you place it on Mystara? What were the
high/low points? Any specific things to look out for?
Thanks in advance.
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:09:51 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Elven Marriage Customs
The recent discussions about marriage in Alfheim got me thinking:
There is no formalized system of marriage in Alfheim--couples form and break
as they wish.
The Erewan and Belcadiz elves mate for life (except for Carmina).
The Sheyallia have a very relaxed and impermanent custom for marriages.
My conclusion is that ancient elven society did not include
institutionalized marriage, but elven socieies that have prolonged contact
with other races develop marriage practices to match those of the other
race. If this is true, then the custom in Wendar is probably to mate for
life, since the elves there have lived closely with humans for centuries.
This could be another major source of tension in Wendar: thousands of
urbane Alfheimers with no moral qualms about adultery loose in a nation full
of married elven country bumpkins. There must be quite a few angry
Wendarian husbands and wives...
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:34:22 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Save Mystara!
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I've been following everyone's posts about generic modules with a blurb
about various settings, and I'm afraid I disagree with the majority of
posters. It seems that it would be VERY difficult to write a module =
that
would fit well into more than a couple settings. A low-level adventure
would work best, but even so there are so many things to consider. To =
do it
right, the writer couldn't refer to gods or immortals, bloodlines, =
legacies,
dragons, or any of the other things that make different settings unique.
Also, new modules should be careful about what monsters appear, since =
there
are (or at least should be) monsters that are found in some worlds and =
not
others.
As someone else mentioned in a previous post, I doubt that generic
adventures would do much to improve Mystara's lot. Few non-Mystarans =
will
even read the blurb, most likely. And even if they do, I doubt it will
convince them that they should go to the effort of tracking down an
out-of-print setting. The main exception to this point would be the =
Savage
Coast, probably the least likely setting for a generic adventure. Even =
a
brief blurb about the Savage Coast could attract new players if it =
mentioned
that everything necessary for the Savage Coast setting is available for =
free
download. Most likely TSR doesn't want to push this at all, since they =
fear
that it might canabalize their other sales. But I believe that =
publicity
for the SC is all it needs to increase demand--after all, wouldn't =
pretty
much any AD&D player take a new setting if they didn't have to pay for =
it?
If enough people actually take advantage of this resource, it might =
create
enough of a market to sell specifically SC products.
Now, getting back to the question of generic products--I like the idea =
of
making them with Mystaran characters and place names, but how realistic =
is
this? I doubt WotC will go for it, and even if they do, they would have =
to
be low-level adventures, since any sizable political rivalries or
interaction of any sort with immortals would ruin the products =
"genericity".
I think the best alternative might be to offer generic products for use =
in
one of two or three settings, all listed on the cover, e.g. an adventure =
to
be set in Norwold or northern Cerillia, with stats for both settings, =
and both the Mystara and Birthright logos on the cover.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>I've been following everyone's posts about generic modules with a=20
blurb<BR>about various settings, and I'm afraid I disagree with the =
majority=20
of<BR>posters. It seems that it would be VERY difficult to write a =
module=20
that<BR>would fit well into more than a couple settings. A =
low-level=20
adventure<BR>would work best, but even so there are so many things to=20
consider. To do it<BR>right, the writer couldn't refer to gods or=20
immortals, bloodlines, legacies,<BR>dragons, or any of the other things =
that=20
make different settings unique.<BR>Also, new modules should be careful =
about=20
what monsters appear, since there<BR>are (or at least should be) =
monsters that=20
are found in some worlds and not<BR>others.<BR><BR>As someone else =
mentioned in=20
a previous post, I doubt that generic<BR>adventures would do much to =
improve=20
Mystara's lot. Few non-Mystarans will<BR>even read the blurb, most =
likely. And even if they do, I doubt it will<BR>convince them that =
they=20
should go to the effort of tracking down an<BR>out-of-print =
setting. The=20
main exception to this point would be the Savage<BR>Coast, probably the =
least=20
likely setting for a generic adventure. Even a<BR>brief blurb =
about the=20
Savage Coast could attract new players if it mentioned<BR>that =
everything=20
necessary for the Savage Coast setting is available for =
free<BR>download. =20
Most likely TSR doesn't want to push this at all, since they =
fear<BR>that it=20
might canabalize their other sales. But I believe that =
publicity<BR>for=20
the SC is all it needs to increase demand--after all, wouldn't =
pretty<BR>much=20
any AD&D player take a new setting if they didn't have to pay for =
it?<BR>If=20
enough people actually take advantage of this resource, it might=20
create<BR>enough of a market to sell specifically SC =
products.<BR><BR>Now,=20
getting back to the question of generic products--I like the idea =
of<BR>making=20
them with Mystaran characters and place names, but how realistic=20
is<BR>this? I doubt WotC will go for it, and even if they do, they =
would=20
have to<BR>be low-level adventures, since any sizable political =
rivalries=20
or<BR>interaction of any sort with immortals would ruin the products=20
"genericity".<BR>I think the best alternative might be to =
offer=20
generic products for use in<BR>one of two or three settings, all listed =
on the=20
cover, e.g. an adventure to<BR>be set in Norwold or northern Cerillia, =
with=20
stats for both settings, and both the Mystara and Birthright logos on =
the=20
cover. </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BDABBC.02DD49A0--
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:37:10 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
> Anyhow, IMO, perhaps in 3rd Edition AD&D they should eliminate the
>alignment system all together. IMO, in many ways it has become more of
>impediment to role-playing than an aid to it.
<snip>
> People should develop a personality for their character (which may evolve
>over time), and let that take the place of any Alignment.
I absolutely agree with your theory here. However, I think alignment is a
vital part of most TSR settings. This is one of my favorite parts about
Mystara, the lack of good vs. evil: Stefan karameikos is well-meaning, but
he has allowed tremendous atrocities; neither the Shadow Elves nor the
Alfheim Elves are evil, but they each paint the other as evil--likewise with
dwarves and elves; Neither Alphatia nor Thyatis is good or evil, both are
just power-hungry nations fighing for their own self-interest; humanoids
aren't automatically evil on mystara (civilized gnolls, a semi-decent kobold
prince, an orcish immortal of honor, even!); there are good undead; one of
the most powerful immortals of Entropy is more "good" than Ixion; and so on.
Mystara's lack of artificial good vs. evil focus makes it much more
believable, because on earth theings are very rarely so clear-cut.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:38:52 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D AD&D
>'So can anyone tell me if there was anything new that came out in the AD&D
boxed
>sets with CDs? I mean useful stuff.
>I just didn't know if it was worth my time so I didn't bother'
The Red Steel sets were very good, but they're now covered entirely by the
free stuff on tsr's website. Glantri and Karameikos weren't bad, but they
weren't especially useful. The Glantri box detailed the new principalities
at Bramyra, Sablestone, and the Great Crater, as well as their respective
princes and Dolores Hillsbury. Mark of Amber was probably the best of the
CD products, but I don't know if it would be too useful if you already own
X2.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:29:35 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
- -->> I never said the change would be easy. Quite the contrary - i was up
for
>> some terrorism on the part of the Jennites.
>>
>Yes, but your reasoning is flawed, basing it on an analogy with Northern
>Ireland. In Northern Ireland the Irish Catholics were the minority. The
>reason a "Northern Ireland" existed at all was because it, unlike the other
>Irish counties, voted to remain part of Great Britain, while the rest voted
>to separate.
Yes, there is that. Depends on how many Jennites (if any) would rather be
part of the NACE.
(Nice to know that someone outside the UK realises that the IRA are not
freedom fighters, but are a minority splinter group as well|...)
> In Esterhold the vast majority of the population is Jennite. You say that
>the former Alphatian population (the opressors) were driven out, so this
>means that by this point the population is almost exclusively Jennite (now,
>before some claim, as no doubt they will, that displaced and very nice,
>enlightened, unbigoted Alphatians settled there after the war to provide a
>new Alphatian population base, I'll respectfully disent; see below).
> They would be highly unlikely, for reasons already described, to want to
>provide any support whatsoever to the empire of their former opressors.
Well, they probably would be better off as part of the NACE. The Jennite
leaders, if not the general population, would probably realise this as well.
I know very little about Jennite culture, but arent they at each others
throats all the time? If so, the Jennite lands with NACE backing would be
able to crush the Jennites who stay independent. So they have a selfish
reason to join up.
> Now, to counter the argument before it appears: No sane Alphatian refugee
>would be likely to move to Esterhold, because of it's horrid nature.
>Alphatian refugees would be much more likely to settle on the Isle of Dawn
>(that's where most of them would have been, or would have been near, at the
>end of the war) or Bellissaria (a nice, quiet place, as opposed to a hotbed
>of insurection and strife). The idea that they'd enjoy retireing to
>Esterhold is not rational.
Well, I wasn't going to put forward that argument at all... I agree with
you that thats highly unlikely.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:02:46 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Progeny
- -----
>In the Glantri boxed set, in the back of the book "The Grimoire" it has
>these tables for use with half-human/half-magical races other than Elves,
>could someone give me a few examples of those races? Thanks.
Tiree, huh - another Star Wars fan? (Seems Star Wars and roleplaying almost
go hand in hand!).
This is purely IMC, and non-canon, but I say that the Progeny arent actually
a result of interbreeding with magical species (dragons and stuff), but
rather they are an effect of living directly above a magical nuke reactor (I
like the mutation concept).
As for the races they canonically are descended from - dragons, nymphs,
faeries, nixies, that sort of thing I think.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:51:25 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
>From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
>>I thought the title of New Alphatian Confederated Empire really cool.
>After
>>all, it is a confederated empire... And calling it the NACE just
>reinforces
>>my belief that Alphatia = Mystaran America...
>
>Actually, the NACE is a mix of the US and the EU, transposed to a
>fantasy setting (with some twists because it has its own history and
>legacies, from Alphatia).
:) If its the EU then there would be much lively internal debate...
Says the guy from England, where the general public arent exactly fans of
the EU.
Cheerz
ROB
BTW Herve - does the SNCF know about that little Mystaran addition youve
made to the French rail service? My friends all thought that very funny!
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:07:38 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>prince, an orcish immortal of honor, even!); there are good undead; one of
>the most powerful immortals of Entropy is more "good" than Ixion
Out of interest, which Immortal did you have in mind? Nyx?
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:05:08 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
>>Actually, the NACE is a mix of the US and the EU, transposed to a
>>fantasy setting (with some twists because it has its own history and
>>legacies, from Alphatia).
>
>
>:) If its the EU then there would be much lively internal debate...
Indeed...
And that's why it's so bureaucratic too.
>Says the guy from England, where the general public arent exactly fans
of
>the EU.
The NACE is so bureaucratic and has many internal problem that you can't
see at first glance, and yet it's written by an europhile ;)
>Cheerz
>
>ROB
>
>BTW Herve - does the SNCF know about that little Mystaran addition
youve
>made to the French rail service? My friends all thought that very
funny!
Nope, they don't. And nobody looked at my code. Though my colleagues
here know my web page address, and the trick is written here on the
first page....
Oh BTW, the message there should have changed, I forgot to tell that to
anyone. They've installed a new version of our software (which is buggy,
that's why the site is very slow at the moment - sorry for those who
try) and I used the opportunity to update the message to reflect the
cahnges in MA1015...
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:43:44 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>Well, Thyatis is (er, "was" IMC) a slave based empire. . .but SO IS
>ALPHATIA, which also seems to have been totally forgotten/written out
of
>history (not just in the Online Almanac, but in the "canon" PWAs as
well. .
>. .)
Actually, this has not been forgotten. The NACE still practicise
slavery.
Or, more exactly, there is no law at the confederate level that banishes
slavery, so each member state may have its own laws on that matter. And
this means that most of them still practice slavery. I think (though may
be mistaken) that only Esterhold has banished slavery, though maybe
there's no slavery in Norwold either (though there almost certainly are
serfs, at least). But Floating Ar, Qeodhar, Bellissaria, the IoD, Aquas,
and the Alatians all still practice slavery. Some nation even are very
upset by the events in Esterhold, especially the wizards of Floating Ar
(who already had to accept the pegataurs as equals because of their
strike, and are now flooded with new nobles that hold lands on the
Yanniveys).
>Ahh, but you are expecting gratitude (now, before people say "well,
>Alphatia was fighting in a good cause, because the NOS is vile,
draining
>the planet of magic" I agree with you, but the MORTAL inhabitants of
>Mystara DO NOT KNOW THAT. All they know is Alphatia tried to impose
it's
>imperialistic will on a smaller nation, and Thyatis stood up for
Glantri,
>and took by far the heaviest beating.)
True. Though people in little countries of the OW probably don't much
like imperialistic Thyatis either, and many commoners of those countries
also fear the dark wizards of Glantri as much as those of faraway
Alphatia.
However, Alphatia never threatened any of those countries, only Thyatis,
Glantri and the HK. In fact, Alphatia even stroke a deal with Karameikos
to be allowed through their territory.
>> after wiping the floor with the sole remaining world power, Thothia
>meekly
>> joins the NACE.
So?
BTW, Thothia did not "meekly" join the NACE. It was one of the founding
members, and has quite some prestige (and thus power) at th ecouncil.
Besides, Thothia assigned a new king and general to rule the city-states
it had freed on the isle of Dawn, and imposed their joining the NACE. It
thus has three additional votes at the council who owe them a lot (not
only their seat on the throne, but even their country which would
otherwise had been Thyatian land). So Thothia may seem quiet and low
profile, while in fact it's one of the most powerful factions at the
council.
>That whole matter is disgusting rubbish, and I avert my eyes from the
>"NACE". It does not exist.
snappish
>> Who knows? Maybe Aketheti is back in power after Talons of Night,
and
>maybe
>> she is in fact running the whole NACE from well behind the scenes.
Maybe
>> even now shapechanging aranea are silently repopulating whats left of
>> Alphatia undetectably (Invasion of the Body Snatchers!).... The
world
>will
>> never know...
eheh cool scenario
pretty scary too
>THAT at least would make for interesting campaign play. IMO, that's
what
>Almanac stuff is good for (which is why the Glantri stuff in the PWAs
is
>far and away the best stuff: nothing firmly "resolved", but an ominous
set
>up, perfect for game play. . .)
> That's why I thought Zandor should have been kept around, too (even if
a
>psychopath, he *did* make a good villian: let *players* work to put
things
>right).
> But this has possibilities.
But don't be afraid, Zandor is still around. Well, not in the NACE, but
in the HW. And he's active there. You'll see when the events for the HW
are added to the MA1015.
>[On a totally different topic, I just wish to say: that's no way to
decide
>a match. Something has to be better than penalty kick shootouts.]
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:47:50 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
> Speaking of that, though, has anyone had any success, long-term, in
>running an Immortals campaign (under either rules system)?
I`m just about to start up a campaign of this level. Since my PC`s are
just about there. It`s ben nearly 4 years since the campaign began at
1st lvl mortal so there`s more than enough background actions of theirs
to get them for. As they`ve risen in levels the number of Immortal
Strokes they`ve been involved with, Knowingly or else, have become quite
large so I`ve got lots of material. Plus ALL those adventures that I`ve
never run due to level problems will be done with PC`s in various mortal
forms. Then there`s an entire Mystaraverse out there for them to explore
etc. I don`t forsee any problem for next couple of years with keeping
them interested. <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:03:37 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Me Too post
>>Do you think you could give us (or me privately, if nobody else is
>>interested) a few pointers on how to speak with Scottish accent? I've
>always
>>wanted to learn it :)
>>******************
>>Aleksei Andrievski
>
>
>Sorry everyone for the "me-too" post but... Me too :-)
>
>Later.
>
>Jesse.
>
If I might make a reccomendation tryto copy the accent of Billy Connely
the actor/comic. His stageshow vids give a good idea of the timing and
abusage of the language. AND you`ll wet yourselves laughing
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:02:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> and enjoyed it. James, you should definetely read it before you dismiss
> it "just like that", because the situation is not as simple and
> certainly not as rosy as you seem to believe.
>
What I see, and what arguments which have been used, is "the best of all
possible worlds:" as I have said, a set up deliberately designed to make
potential problems as small as possible.
Perhaps they should rename the place "Panglossia"
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #491
********************************
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mystara-digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 492
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise)
Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise)
Re: [MYSTARA] - West End Games goes bankrupt
[MYSTARA] - Savage Coast
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Me Too post
Re: [MYSTARA] - Ionace as capital
[MYSTARA] - NACE, Monster's Island & Ionace
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
[MYSTARA] - Thothia and NACE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:13:37 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise)
>Sir Alexius Dannelaran
>Knight of the Order of the Griffon
>
BTW which side will you be on when the CK civil war begins? Will my
PC`s have an enemy or an ally? Either way you seem to be a person of
some importance so further details of you could prove useful! <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:13:40 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise)
>Sir Alexius Dannelaran
>Knight of the Order of the Griffon
>
BTW which side will you be on when the CK civil war begins? Will my
PC`s have an enemy or an ally? Either way you seem to be a person of
some importance so further details of you could prove useful! <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:24:31 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - West End Games goes bankrupt
>And taking this to a Mystara note... would anyone be interested in an
>adaptation of *my own version* of Blackmoor set shortly before the
GRoF, using
>Alternity rules? The technology of the era is appropriate, and the
Alternity
>GM's Guide even has conversion rules for AD&D...
>
I DEFINATELY would it`s just the sort of thing that I`ll be able to slip
into my Immortals level game and will give a new twist. I`ve already
decided that HARD FUN is Mystara after the NoS etc Have done their
worst. So a look at what started it all wiil be great! <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:28:10 EDT
From: Dragon3125@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Savage Coast
In a message dated 7/10/98 7:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes:
<<
As someone else mentioned in a previous post, I doubt that generic
adventures would do much to improve Mystara's lot. Few non-Mystarans will
even read the blurb, most likely. And even if they do, I doubt it will
convince them that they should go to the effort of tracking down an
out-of-print setting. The main exception to this point would be the Savage
Coast, probably the least likely setting for a generic adventure. Even a
brief blurb about the Savage Coast could attract new players if it mentioned
that everything necessary for the Savage Coast setting is available for free
download. Most likely TSR doesn't want to push this at all, since they fear
that it might canabalize their other sales. But I believe that publicity
for the SC is all it needs to increase demand--after all, wouldn't pretty
much any AD&D player take a new setting if they didn't have to pay for it?
If enough people actually take advantage of this resource, it might create
enough of a market to sell specifically SC products.
>>
I personally think this would be a cool think to happen as the Savage Coast
and Orc's head penninsula is one of the more interesting campaign
areas.......on that topic has anyone set up any info about the savage Coast on
their pages?
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:31:39 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>> As I recall, in the latest Net Almanac whats his name (Favian
Vern???)
>was
>> going to set up a democratic government. (The only one in Mystara
bar
>> Leeha). And from that interview with Broderick, the Alphatians are
going
>to
>> let him go ahead with it.
>>
>Then please send me some of what the folks who work on the Net Almanac
have
>been smoking, because that is patently rediculous, obviously done out
of
>favoritism towards the NACE, and completely out of character for
Alphatia
>and, especially, Esterhold.
> Esterhold has some of the worst Alphatians in existance forming the
bulk
>of the Alphatian population, and the bulk of the total population
consists
>of people who were savagely and ruthlessly enslaved. Again: If you
>(completely unrealistically) have them give the vote to everyone, do
you
>realistically think that the 70-80% of the former slaves would vote to
keep
>their former overseers in power, and remain part of the same Empire
that
>kept it's booted heel on their necks for centuries?
Who said they would? (hint, hint)
>> Southern Ireland??? The difference is that South Vietnam was a
corrupt
>> government despised by all who lived there.
>>
>I made no reference to Ireland, remember.
> As far as Esterhold, if you think the government is not corrupt,
>opressive, and dispised by all who live in Esterhold (the native,
Jennite
>population), then obviously you've read different source material than
I
>have. Perhaps I have an earlier printing of DotE, which was filled with
>erronious information, which they rectified in later printings,
>transforming Alphatia into an egalitarian democracy. If so, please let
me
>know, and I'll search for a corrected copy.
C'mon, don't play that game.
It's true that it's out of character for the NACE and Esterhold. That's
the fun of it. It's the fact of only one character, Favian Vern.
Also don't remember that the situation in Esterhold is different in
1014/1015 than it was in 1000. Now the dictators have been ousted by the
NACE, Favian Vern, other Alphatians, and of course Jennites. The slaves
have been freed.
Besides, I remind you that the Alphatians do NOT believe in the ideals
of democracy, and generally think that Favian Vern's experiment is
doomed to fail (see the interview of Commander Broderick in MA1015). And
many wish it fails, bacuse if it succeeded their own people may be
tempted (see the doings of Baron Norlan).
>> However, in Esterhold there will be (is?) a democratic government,
which
>> will pacify the Jennites living there (I also think they will be made
>free
>> citizens by Favian Vern) and prevent all out guerrilla war, like in
>Vietnam.
>>
>Again, that seems patently absurd, for the reasons described above.
>
>>
>> I wasnt talking about the Empire being democratic. The NACE is a
>> republic/confederation of semi autonomous states. It so happens that
the
>> area the Jennites live in is probably going to be a democracy. So,
at
>least
>> from the Jennites point of view - you have democracy.
>>
>1) it is absurd to believe that the same Alphatians who last month kept
a
>booted heel on the neck of the Jennites would suddenly decide to
elevate
>them to the status of equals.
This is what has been done in 1014/1015, after Xanthus and Nicodemus
were overthrown. However, who said it goes all smooth? Obviously, there
are Alphatians who don't like the new regime, and Jennites who don't
like it either. It's never possible to make everyone happy.
However, some Alphatians do support the new way. Especially those that
collaborated with the Jennite rebels for years (Favian Vern among them,
obviously), as well as the new settlers (remember the role of the
displaced inhabitants of Gaity, esp. Tristilla).
>2) it is furthermore absurd that the Jennite population would vote to
>remain a part of the Empire who ruthlessly opressed them, once/if given
the
>chance.
Actually, there has been no election yet. There should have been, but
the attacks by new jennite rebels have postponed it.
>3) Who on Rad's green Mystara thought that this was in character for
>Alphatia, any portion of it? And if their is a "last place on Mystara"
>where Alphatians would decide to embrace their slaves as equals, it is
>Esterhold, which, as I said, is populated by the LEAST enlightened
>Alphatians and the MOST debased/opressed of their slaves.
WAS, not IS.
But rest assured, everything's not rosy in Esterhold. Already Favian
Vern has had problems before he even could have his elections take
place. And that's not over. Esterhold is definetemy one of the place in
the NACE where the situation is really messy. And it's not the only one;
with the HK back in the Grace of Vanya, Norwold's future does not look
bright, and there are other events coming in other parts of the NACE
next year.
> I am sorry, because I know people put a lot of hard work into the Net
>Almanac, but I'm afraid they often don't think things through. I
appologize
>for being critical, but IMO this is not in keeping with the spirit of
>Alphatia, or of Mystara, the same spirit they desire to keep alive.
Well, if you don't like it, you certainly can write your own, alternate
timeline. This has already been proposed on the MMB, too (most people on
the MMB enjoy discussing alternate Mystaras). If you came up with
something like that, rest assured that I would read it and probably
enjoy it, and maybe even one day send my PCs to that alternate Mystara
to show them. Not to mention that there would certainly be good ideas
for me to use for the MA...
It is,
>instead, in the full spirit of a DM who also plays, and who's character
>"happens" to stumble upon a Vorpal Blade.
> I.E. it is as if they realized the potential problem Esterhold would
>create for the NACE, and rather than resolving it naturally and
>realistically, they all got together with the goal of coming up with an
>idea to make it go away.
Go away with it? Please read the MA before saying that. There is so much
going on in the NACE and Esterhold that are not rosy...
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:34:24 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
>Has anyone given any thought to spicing up the WotI rules with some of
>the better gold box ideas?
>
That`s precisely what I`m doing in my Immortal campaign. I will admit
that i`m also using some of the stuff from WotC `Primal Order` but I`m
not gonna go into that incase one of my players is listening! <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:39:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: Gordon McCormick <gordon.mccormick@ucd.ie>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Me Too post
>>>Do you think you could give us (or me privately, if nobody else is
>>>interested) a few pointers on how to speak with Scottish accent? I've
>>always
>>>wanted to learn it :)
>
>If I might make a reccomendation tryto copy the accent of Billy Connely
>the actor/comic. His stageshow vids give a good idea of the timing and
>abusage of the language. AND you`ll wet yourselves laughing
Or anyone from Braveheart, even Mel does a good accent!
As do the folks in "So I married an axe murderer". Hmm foreigners
doing good scottish accents, surely there are some famous scots apart
from BC! Umn...(I don't think the comic strip Oor Wullie is printed
much out of scotland. It is written in Scot's and can be tricky to
read at first...but very good for pronunciation!)
Main things about a Scot's accent from what I've been told (by Irish
folks who cannae understand me :) ):
We use a glottal stop in place of plosives at the end of words...I
don't know how to describe a glotal stop, but it means it's difficult
to tell the words
can and
can't apart hence, cannae...
(And didnae, and wouldnae etc...)
Umn, aye is used to mean yes
Gah, it's tricky to describe an accent via email! Watching episodes
of Rab C. Nesbitt might be the best thing...
Or the Oxford Guide to the English language...nah, watching TV is
much better :)
Oh, there's a guy Craig Ferguson who did a number of cartoons for
Warner Bros. a few years ago (Freakazoid in particular), which might
help...
Oh yeah, Trainspotting is good for east coast accents...but they all
sound weird anyway (Hmm, ZZonga addicts?)
(Incidently, the young William Wallace in Braveheart was played by
out local paper boy...so if you want to hear a Kilmarnock accent...
:) )
waffling,
gordon
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:41:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ionace as capital
> After much deliberation, Monster Island is chosen as a
> likely spot. The island is inhabited by monsters and rugged
> terrain, which makes it hard to invade. As well, the
> abandonned dwarven city of Denwarf-Hurgon makes the perfect
> defensive position.
>
Remember that the much-missed Zandor already tried to occupy the place, and
found that the monsters, strangely, also attacked Alphatians (I.E., they
weren't just sitting there as a free defensive force for whichever
Alphatians decided to reclaim the place). IIRC, the forces sent to Monster
Island were decimated and withdrawn for that reason.
>
> So let's first remember the Alphatian situation at the time. Alphatia
> had sunk, the empire apart. Insane Zandor had been trying to reunite the
> remnants, mostly by force and for his own glory.
>
Including, and disasterously, Monster Island (see above).
>
> No one ever lobbyied in favor of Norwold, Esterhold, the Alatians,
> Thothia, the ruined city states of the IoD, or Qeodhar, all of them for
> obvious reasons. Nobody ever lobbyied for the Yanniveys either, though
> IMHO they could have been considered (neutral ground etc) but they have
> their flaws (notorious haven for criminals).
>
No self-respecting Alphatian would want to live in the Yanniveys: full of
criminals, barbarians, and the places are iceburgs.
>
> Bellissaria has some advantages too. It's easily defended, it has room.
> The fact that it's not neutral land might be bypassed by creating
> neutral territory out of part of it (like for Washington DC). Yet it's
> not central, way out of the major shipping lane (arguably though, as it
> depends on where exactly on Bellissaria).
>
Bellissaria would develop its own shiping/trade lanes. Trade flows to where
their is the oportunity for profitable exchange.
> If you look at a map and
> locate Bellissaria, you'll see that it's not really central to the
> colonies (though you might argue that neither is Wash. DC) as are Aquas
> and Monster Island.
>
I have looked at a map; Bellissaria is at one end (the SE) of the NACE
territories, Monster Island is at the other end (NW) of the Alphatian
territories. Aquas & Arogansa Isl. are roughly in the center.
Plus, in the NACE, Bellissaria IMO is the "center" of Alphatian population
& society.
> Besides, you should take into account the fact that
> the council knows of th eexistence of Alphatia in the HW. The better
> route to their knowlegde (with the Pit down and the Sundsvall
> Mealstrom's capabilities not yet discovered) is through the North Pole.
> Bellissaria is very far from the north pole, and from the SM where there
> are according to Favian Vern more ripstorms than elsewhere that allow
> skyship into th evoid and from there into the HW (via th enorth pole;
> see MA1015 [the Joint polar Expedition] for more on that subject).
>
Mt. Thera (which is also fairly centrally located) is as close to the SM as
Monster Island is, and has the added advantage of not being overun by
creatures who would consider the Alphatian commoners tasty snacks (under
normal circumstances; see below).
> Floating Ar is very well located, but it is not neutral ground. Besides,
> it's not easily accessible (you need skyship or magic). And the most
> annoying of it all is that it has so little land masse. Where would you
> put your buildings? All flying isalnds that have enough room for that
> already have a wizard tower. Another problem is that Floating Ar is
> certainly one of the most conservative of the NACE members, as it once
> was part of Alphatian mainland and is full of haughty wizards that
> probably do not like the NACE that much (that's where the name New
> Alphatian Empire would most widely be used, see another post).
> The main disadvantage of these isles is that they are (except for
> Monster Island) rather small, and very mountainous, so not easily
> settled/built upon.
>
I'd hardly say that any of the ones I have mentioned are too small for the
job. Firstly, since Dee Cee has been used as an example: the District
itself is exceptionally small. Take Arogansa Island: it is probably about
as hilly as Attica (certainly *not* as hilly/dificult to build on as
Monster Island), no more and no less, is much larger than Attica (several
thousand square miles), and could easily support (especially with trade) a
worthy capital of size and cultural importance equal to IRL Athens. It has
a nice little bay on the southern coast which would be a wonderful deep
water harbor (see map), and it doesn't have a well-known monsterous
population which (under normal circumstances; see below) would have
considered construction crews (or farmers) a tasty snack.
> They are quite isolated and thus it may take time
> before they get reinforcements in case of an attack by a foreign power;
>
Less isolated IMO than Monster Island, especially in that they are more
centrally located, and while it would be a fairly simple matter for someone
to sail unoticed from the west to Monster Island, anyone who wanted to get
to these places would have to sail wither south past IoD & Aeria, or go
north around the IoD & would thus have a greater chance of being noticed
(and the longer journey for the likely attacker would give the NACE
military a better reaction time), or through the IoD. . .
>
> On top of that, Monster Island has additional advantages (and
> disadvantages, too) to your typical Aslaa or Egret island. It's bigger,
> already has a small city, Sanctuary, with all the access to supplies and
> shipping lanes it implies (and mercenaries). It also has the ruins of
> Monster Island, which provide buidings available immediately.
>
Most of these buildings are just that: ruins. Monster Island is larger (far
larger), but the vast majority of it is too mountanous for general
agriculture (and before you say "terracing like the Incans", IMO it's too
far north for that; probably once the altitude & latitude are takein into
account, the local weather wouldn't permit viable crop yields, where
viable=yields greater than seeds planted.) They don't need the huge size
(IMO, one of the beefs I had with most canon stuff was the exceptionally
low population densities of most places anyhow; its as if the areas were
populated by pastorial nomads rather than urbanized/agricultural based
societies).
Arogansa isn't a flyspeck, and when/if 100+ years from now the population
rose to the level where it couldn't suport itself with local agriculture,
grain could be imported from the Thothian river basin, which is
significantly closer to Arogansa than it is to Monster Island, thus cuting
down on shiping overhead.
For several reasons I myself have become somewhat atracted to Mt. Thera,
if only because I don't play Earthdawn much anymore, and it would allow me
to make use of FASA's excellent The Theran Empire accessory. If you don't
have it, a magically powerful society (with airships, floating Islands over
the capital) runs a large empire, and has as its capital a small island
city-state (Thera, natch). IMO, it is so close to Alphatia already. . .but
one can't "officially" adapt someone else's accessory (FASA's) to a TSR
gameworld.
Still, if anyone wants to look at an extensive counter-argument to the
"these islands are too small" argument, they should thumb through that
Earthdawn accessory (folks have handed me huge, and by and large
unproductive IMO, reading assignments, so this is my revenge *grin*).
As to the leaders of Alphatia underestimating the dangers/perils of the
Monsterous population, again; they have the previous experience of Zandor's
misadventure to Denwarf-Hurgon, and I'm not sure they'd want to emulate one
of his most agregeous debacles in such a highlighted fashion.
But perhaps they have a "secret plan" to solve the problem and render the
monsters docile. They'll probably grant them sufferage next year.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:42:17 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - NACE, Monster's Island & Ionace
The following are excerpts from the Mystaran Net-Almanac for AC 1014.
These give an explanation on why Monster's Island was choosed and make
(IMO) a good starting ground for a discussion.
Seat of Government
The commonly called Monster Island, formerly part of Alphatia, was claimed
by nobody until the creation of the NACE. It thereby becomes the center of
the confederate government, and is renamed the Isle of the NACE, or Ionace.
The Council holds meeting in a dedicated building on Ionace, called the
Parliament. Each member state is granted a patch of land adjacent to the
Parliament where they can build their own Representation. Staff of
representatives live and work in their Representation and meet in the
Parliament. Countries that keep diplomatic ties with the NACE will also be
granted land on Ionace, where they can build an Embassy. Representations
and Embassies are paid by the countries to which they belong. The Imperial
Army is based on Ionace, where it owns buildings, including the Military
Headquarters where the Commander in Chief has his office.
Until the buildings are completed in Ionace, the government, military and
other institutions of the NACE will be assigned currently unoccupied
buildings in the abandoned city of Denwarf-Hurgon.
Broderick: Well, many reasons converged to this place being chosen. One of
them was that we needed many buildings that could host our government
officials immediately until we could construct new ones, and the abandoned
buildings of Denwarf-Hurgon, that had resisted the sinking and earthquakes...
Broderick: (...) But the seat of the confederated government is a very
symbolic place to the people of Alphatia. Ionace is doubly symbolic : It
is not situated on any of the member state, making it a sort of neutral
ground, and it was once part of mainland Alphatia, helping giving to the
peoples that form the NACE a sentiment of unity and loyalty to the old ways
of Alphatia and Empress Eriadna.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:24:31 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
At 12.56 09/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>1) Regarding the effects of a Wish (the "Thincol appears for two seconds
>then poofs back home"), all that means is one tries again, with more
>careful wording the next time.
But meanwhile Thincol would have found a way to protect himself from such a
Wish.
Besides as the wording gets more convoluted the wish is more likely to fail.
I once had a PCs with a ring of Wish and he used to write down his wish on
a piece of paper, correct it several times and then hand it over to me :-)
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:27:08 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Thothia and NACE
Ok, let's start it all over again.
Please list me what Thothia gains and what it loses from joining NACE.
- --------------
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brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:50:55 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women
> Along these lines, I've always been suprised at how modern most
>nations in Mystara are when it comes to sex. Even in some of the most
>primative tribes, such as the gurrash of the Savage Coast, women are
>regarded as equal to men.
I think that emancipation came about with magic use. It`s very hard to
oppress women who can toast you with fireballs, or curse you with the
power of their patron. <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:46:13 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>
> I absolutely agree with your theory here. However, I think alignment is
a
> vital part of most TSR settings.
>
I know. . .and over the years the alignment system has had its advantages,
but I just think it has begun (or finished?) a process where it's outlived
its utility, as evidenced by the fact that most recient games do not
emulate the alignment system in any way, but rather give tips/templates etc
on how to develop a sufficiently heroic (or anti-heroic) personality for
new characters.
And I fully agree with the below, myself (You were refering to Nyx as the
"good" entropic Immortal, right? Yah, she's a sweetie 8-)
This is one of my favorite parts about
> Mystara, the lack of good vs. evil: Stefan karameikos is well-meaning,
but
> he has allowed tremendous atrocities; neither the Shadow Elves nor the
> Alfheim Elves are evil, but they each paint the other as evil--likewise
with
> dwarves and elves; Neither Alphatia nor Thyatis is good or evil, both
are
> just power-hungry nations fighing for their own self-interest; humanoids
> aren't automatically evil on mystara (civilized gnolls, a semi-decent
kobold
> prince, an orcish immortal of honor, even!); there are good undead; one
of
> the most powerful immortals of Entropy is more "good" than Ixion; and so
on.
> Mystara's lack of artificial good vs. evil focus makes it much more
> believable, because on earth theings are very rarely so clear-cut.
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:53:19 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:15:32 -0400
>My friend, you have done a valiant job designing/detailing this area.
Thank you.
Don't
>take it personally if some people criticize it. I am not saying you
are, but I
I'm not really. Well, a bit of course.
Actually, we had problems here at work and I couldn't read my mail for 2
or 3 days, and when I could I kept seeing message criticizing the nace
and in which the author was not really kind (for which he since
apologized), so I too responded a bit harshly, sorry.
>DO know that my own feelings get caught up in a project that I work on.
>
>My lord! If anyone really tore into the Kingdom of Haven, I know I
would feel
>personally attacked, at least at first.
>
>My only real thought on the NACE, is that the abbreviation as a name is
rather
>anachronistic. I have been guilty of this in the past, as have others,
but it
>does sound rather odd for a fantasy setting.
Yep I know some people do think so. See my post on that subject, that
should satisfy you.
As for people who don't like the sounding of it, I wonder if they
prevent their PCs from using a mace because it sounds weird ;)
>I believe the seeds for the capital being at Monster Island were
already
>planted before you took over detailing the place. So I hardly consider
"blame"
>falling on your shoulders. My point stands though on the essence of
Monster
>Island being a "really neat place to explore and too bad they (TSR
designers)
>chose to set up a camp/city/civilization so quickly.
Yes. Actually that has been fixed to some degree in the almanac, with
having the monsters becoming more active and a real annoyance. And
there's more to come on that matter in the 1016 almanac.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:14:14 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
At 18.56 09/07/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
Premise: I don't know very much about Thothia, Alphatia and NACE. I'm
jussing tossing out some ideas, but I may be completely wrong.
>I like the trade theory though. I mean, Thothia is just a desert - the only
>thing of value is their vast magical learning, a shadow of ancient Nithia.
>The Alphatians would be well up to lay their hands on that (for a price, of
>course...)
Thothia is just a desert, but they should eat something, shouldn't they?
Create food is an option, but I think buying food from, say, Bellisaria is
a far more common practice.
>There is also the matter of influence. Looking at the US/NATO treaty - the
>US gets a lot of influence from NATO (like, the support of all the NATO
>nations, the justification to poke their unwanted nose in European affairs,
>that sort of thing (bad joke, no flaming)). Thothia is no probably one of
>the most valued states in the NACE - much influence their over the entire
>Empire.
Agreed.
> I remember from Talons of Night though that the place seemed absolutely
>riddled with corruption (and aranea). I also remember that the PCs don't
>actually do a great deal to stop that - they take out the Night Spider
>herself, and Aketheti (but not necessarily permanently - she is a vampire,
>and they don't know that), Ramenhotep X is still around, and so are the
>many, many, many aranean minions. I don't think Thothia would be
>sufficiently stable to have Imperial aspirations of their own, so perhaps
>thats why they joined the NACE.
I've not read Talons of Night, though I've it. Anyway this seems another
likely option.
>
>(BTW - check out the troop ratings for aranea in Talons of Night. No way
>dude! Aranea have to be one of the most powerful races on Mystara - almost
>as bad as Realms drow. Also - who in the Net Almanac team is writing stuff
>on Herath and Bellayne? Those two places RULE! And their is precious
>little stuff on them...)
I think no one is writing stuff specifically about Herath and Bellayne, but
you're welcome to join the Savage Coast team.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:08:43 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
. WoTI made the
>immortals all powerful, rather than restricted by arbitrary rules. (How
>can an Immortal of Time grant his cleric Purify food and water, when he
>himself can't use it?!!?)
>
WRONG! It just is more expensive for him to cast but he CAN use all
magic
>If an Immortal exists in 4 dimensions, that means he exists as a line
>through the entire space-time plane, occupying all points in time per
area
>of space he/she is in.
Again WRONG the gold box dimensions were all SPATIAL no mention was made
of time.you`ve fallen into the usual cock-up that people have. Time is a
POSSIBLE 4th dimension, BUT since we`re extending the spatial dimensions
numerically it becomes something else. Certain theories (RW) predict the
existance of over 25 spatial dimensions in the instants after Big Bang.
These extra dimensions help to cope with the dark matter problem etc.
Just to make sure you get it. Time ISN`T th 4th dimension!
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #492
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mystara-digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 493
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - NACE, Monster's Island & Ionace
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Physics and Mystara
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:04:08 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> Yes, there is that. Depends on how many Jennites (if any) would rather
be
> part of the NACE.
>
"few to none" IMO. Ok, there would be some quislings/colaborators. Their
always are. But rather than repeat my arguments (ok, I guess I'm going to
to some degree): yes, I know these "new" folk "liberated" them, but they
were also the same folk who 1) turned a blind eye before and 2) formed part
of the empire which insured their continued enslavement. I.E. their is no
way the Alphatians on Esterhold could have kept the place occupied without
the support/assistance from the rest of the Alphi Empire.
Thus, at least in the eyes of many (if not the vast majority) of the
Jennites, they would likely view these "liberators" with a jaundaced eye:
with Metro. Alphatia gone, the hour of *complete* liberty was near. IMO,
the Jennites would view the "assistance" that was recieved from the
"liberating" Alphatians as being self-interested. Enlightened self-interest
to be sure, but self-interest none the less: Alphatia was going to loose
Esterhold, and this is the only way for them to keep it, thus they aren't
really being "kind", but are doing what is nessisary to keep control over
an area they "have no right to control in the first place" (these arguments
all from the Jennite perspective.)
Even if the Jennites and Alphatians were close personal friends and
allies, IMO the Jennites whould have little use for the Alphatian system.
They'd want to govern themselves, live by their own traditions, etc.
>
> Well, they probably would be better off as part of the NACE. The Jennite
> leaders, if not the general population, would probably realise this as
well.
>
Would they? How so? Being out of NACE gives them the oportunity to "rejoin"
with Skothian Jen; they are out at the end of a penninsula that no one is
likely to bother to invade (by land or sea), and they'll likely be left
alone. Meanwhile, being part of NACE has the positive benifit of involving
them in all kinds of foreign wars.
As for a "voice" in NACE government, why bother? Point is: do they really
care what NACE policy is if they can isolate themselves from NACE and its
problems? Why fight Thyatians (or whoever) on behalf of your former
overlords? I'm sure Eusibius (and anyone else) will leave the Jennites
alone if left alone by them.
>
> Well, I wasn't going to put forward that argument at all... I agree with
> you that thats highly unlikely.
>
Thus, if the former slavemasters have been driven out, their is a
negligable population of Alphatians in the region. And if they haven't
been. . .well, I'm not sure the ex-slaves would want to live in peace and
harmony (or even low-level strife) with such ruthless folk.
It isn't the same as if one ended slavery in, say, Metro. A or
Bellissaria, where the population of "real" Alphatians outnumber the slave
population, and thus "getting along and going along" would probably be the
best thing to do for the freedmen. Esterhold is the Jennites home, it is
more analogous to Zaire or Algeria than to, I.E. the American South in that
respect. And in thouse places the level of opression was (arguably)
considerably less than it is depicted to have been in Esterhold.
Hmmmmn. . . .Broderick as de Gaul. . .that's a nice analogy, too.
Esterhold can be his Algeria.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:18:24 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic
The question then becomes why wasn't the Beagle's crew
>> familiar with magic? They knew about parapsychological phenomena
>
>Maybe to the Beagle's crew, Magic wasn't as commonplace or their core
>wasn't as strong, magically.
>
Hold on a minute! Wasn`t the Federation originally set up by Khronus
from early Blackmoor evacuees? Magic should be know to them at leat
theoretically. Probably it was all Khronus` fault as he made sure that
his personal timeline became the `real` timeline. A sort of self
fulfilling prophecy in effect. <:_P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:20:08 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> there's no slavery in Norwold either (though there almost certainly are
> serfs, at least).
>
Little/no attention was given to the topic of slavery in material on
Norwold. My guess is that like Karameikos (which is run by a Thyatian, but
one that abhors and thus outlawed the practice), Norwold wouldn't have
slaves. I'm not sure if it would be outlawed, or if it would just be
something that "isn't done here", or what, but it seems out of character
for the place (see, I'm not totally anti-Alphie).
> But Floating Ar, Qeodhar, Bellissaria, the IoD, Aquas,
> and the Alatians all still practice slavery.
>
My main point is that it seems to get little or no attention; most
Alphatian social problems go unremarked upon.
>
> True. Though people in little countries of the OW probably don't much
> like imperialistic Thyatis either, and many commoners of those countries
> also fear the dark wizards of Glantri as much as those of faraway
> Alphatia.
>
Definately true.
> However, Alphatia never threatened any of those countries, only Thyatis,
> Glantri and the HK. In fact, Alphatia even stroke a deal with Karameikos
> to be allowed through their territory.
>
That was a deus ex machina style thing. I have my own problems with canon.
. . .
Btw, Alphatia *did* also invade Ylaruam. That got brushed over completely,
because it was just a tool; if Thyatis had done it that way, their would
have been all kinds of consiquences. But for Alphatia, anything goes. . . .
> otherwise had been Thyatian land). So Thothia may seem quiet and low
> profile, while in fact it's one of the most powerful factions at the
> council.
>
IMO, not only would it have been more reasonable, but for long-term
gameplay, more fun, to have Thothia form its own intentions, and become an
independant power block. TSR seems to have toyed with this idea but droped
it (because it wasn't in Alphatia's best interests) by the end of the PWA
III timeline. I disagreed with that (apparent) decision.
One of my biggest problems, as things developed (slowly, over time), is
that the "Known World" region is deplorably congested with petty states,
while outside of that there are these huge blocks. IMO, a Thothia that
governed the "Alphatian" portion of the IoD would have been a step towards
rectifying that.
No one wants to hear my ideas for "cleaning up" Mystara, but they include
divesting both empires of their colonial posessions (Alphatia would center
on Bellsissaria, which as I have already argued is easily big enough to be
an Empire all by itself), with Thyatis gaining in compensation Karameikos,
Minrothad & Ierendi. Alfheim would have joined Darokin (but something else
happened there. . .) with Wendar becoming the "elven" nation, and Vestland
& Soderfjord would become one nation.
Then, with fewer (but larger/more viable) countries in the "Known World",
the focus could move out to the wider world as a whole. But, alas, this
will never happen.
>
> snappish
>
You bet. 8-)~
>
> But don't be afraid, Zandor is still around. Well, not in the NACE, but
> in the HW.
>
As a pathetic non-entity. Even von Hendrix has more significance.
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:27:46 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>> Like I said, they have no say as to whether they want to remain part
of
>the
>> Empire or not.
>>
>Thus: Revolt. De Bellum Civilis. Invasion from Jennite Skothia.
And that's what is happening (the revolt).
>> All those corrupt, evil Alphies got ousted in the recent wars. And
the
>> enslaved Jennites even helped the Alphie forces under Broderick kick
in
>> those corrupt, evil rulers.
>>
>Again, unrealistic and rediculous.
Why?
Didn't the Americans and Russians fight side by side the Nazis? It
happens all the time that people who normally do not get along well
agree to cooperate for a time to achieve some result.
So, maybe the Jennites didn't trust the NACE too much at first (they're
Alphatians), but since they were giving their help to overthrow evil
Xanthus and Nicodemus, why refuse?
>> Ah - they arent the same Alphatians. The nutters who are oppressing
the
>> Jennites never actually joined the NACE (I think) and that was, what,
5
>> years ago now? that they have been independent tyrannies?
>>
>So you have a population vanish, a new and strangely enlightened one
takes
>its place (funny, you know, from what I had read, their were a large
number
>of slaves in Metropolitan Alphatia itself, and I must have skipped the
>parts where it discussed a nacient democracy movement), without any
>troubles, and the formerly enslaved Jennites are just happy to join the
>NACE.
Nope, it's certainly not that simple. Don't be childish.
> Admittedly, some of this began with the TSR KWAs, but it was as
pattently
>absurd then, too. Of course, one could (as it seems both Ann Dupuis/TSR
&
>the Net Almanac team) alter the original canon, and say that Alphatia
had
>no vices (there was no slavery, only a few people opressed the Jennites
and
>they have no desire for liberty, etc, etc.)
Where did you read that?
Oh, right, the part I wrote during my crises of somnanbulism ;) (now I
at least put smileys when I say something stupid)
> Clearly, both in Canon & in the Net Almanac, this is the general
opinion
>(the "bad" things about Alphatia just seem to be droped/excused away/or
>ignored), while the flaws of other nations are highlighted. . .. That's
>fine. It's a different Alphatia from DotE then, though.
Of course it's a different Alphatia. The old one died iin the sinking.
Now they have to redefine their society and their place in the world
(same can be said for HW Alphatia, BTW).
And this is true for Thyatis too, they have to find their new place in a
world where their enemy is gone.
And for your information, all the flaws of Alphatia were not forgotten
(like slavery, contary to what you say), nor for other countries (eg the
xenophoby of the Ylari toward the Unbelievers, the tension between
Traladans and Thyatians, etc). True, Thyatis's flaws have been
highlighted most, but this is likely temporary, until Thyatis sheds its
old skin.
>> Ive already answered this one - the Alphie constitution doesnt give
them
>a
>> choice in the matter. They wouldnt be imperialistic if it did, now,
>would
>> they? :)
>>
>And I've already retorted that the "By Any Means Nessisary" solution
would
>then be the likely option, IMHO.
>
>> Mmm. Thats why I like the idea of the Northern Ireland analog.
>Esterhold
>> would be a pain in the butt (and a diplomatic embarrassment) for
Alphatia
>> for years to come.
I really like your northern Ireland analogy. Gives me ideas. Actually I
was leaning toward an Italy (politically), but adding elements of Irish
IRA is very good an idea.
>We shall see what becomes of it. . . .
Well, all ideas and remarks you make I read, and so may use them.
>> I like these "ranting screeds" of yours...
>>
>I'm glad you enjoyed it, 'cause this one that you replied to was one of
the
>ones I felt I had to appologize for (the general rude & obnoxious tone.
I
>don't retreat from the content of anything I've written, as you can
see. .
>. .)
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:30:48 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
>Either way, 4 spatial dimensions is not mathematically possible. Read
any
>book on Relativity.
>
>
You mean the THEORY of relativity! the lovely thing is old A.E. himself
knew that there was probably a better way to understand the universe,
this was just the best for now! As the saying goes `A little knowledge
is a very dangerous thing` and to misquote the bard ` There are more
things in Planes and Mystara, than are dreamt of in your philosophy`.
Keep the faith, `cos that seems to be what your working on. <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:43:05 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
James Ruhland wrote:
> >
> > Yes, there is that. Depends on how many Jennites (if any) would rather
> be
> > part of the NACE.
> >
> "few to none" IMO. Ok, there would be some quislings/colaborators. Their
> always are. But rather than repeat my arguments (ok, I guess I'm going to
> to some degree): yes, I know these "new" folk "liberated" them, but they
> were also the same folk who 1) turned a blind eye before and 2) formed part
> of the empire which insured their continued enslavement. I.E. their is no
> way the Alphatians on Esterhold could have kept the place occupied without
> the support/assistance from the rest of the Alphi Empire.
On the contrary, consider that there were black slaveowners who fought on the side of
the South in the War of Northern Aggression *wicked grin* to preserve their way of
life.
I think it would add some depth to consider there may very well be spellcasting
Jennites who would side with the Alphatians...and who might consider the New
Alphatian Confederate Empire to be a good thing...
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:44:19 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic
paul dooley wrote:
> The question then becomes why wasn't the Beagle's crew
> >> familiar with magic? They knew about parapsychological phenomena
> >
>
> >Maybe to the Beagle's crew, Magic wasn't as commonplace or their core
> >wasn't as strong, magically.
> >
> Hold on a minute! Wasn`t the Federation originally set up by Khronus
> from early Blackmoor evacuees? Magic should be know to them at leat
> theoretically. Probably it was all Khronus` fault as he made sure that
> his personal timeline became the `real` timeline. A sort of self
> fulfilling prophecy in effect. <:_P
No. The Federation is where the Beagle came from. Khoronus set up a Blackmoor
colony sometime later...
>
>
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:38:04 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> >know, and I'll search for a corrected copy.
>
> C'mon, don't play that game.
>
I (hopefully) won't: this was one of the ones I ended up apologizing for
it's rude and sarcastic tone over.
Again, it was unwaranted and in bad form, for which I am sorry.
>
> Also don't remember that the situation in Esterhold is different in
> 1014/1015 than it was in 1000. Now the dictators have been ousted by the
> NACE, Favian Vern, other Alphatians, and of course Jennites. The slaves
> have been freed.
>
And they've been feebleminded into forgetting the past (or, if you play
AD&D, the spell "Programed Amnesia" works very well)?
IMO, they'd be very anti-colonialist. Most would bear forever the scars of
the whip on their back, and I'm not sure they'd be very forgiving unless
they were under the influence of Programed Amnesia (if the Council got
involved, that could be arranged, I'm sure). (Programed Amnesia is a nasty
spell. IMO, over the top in many ways, but it's available if you want 'em
to use it).
At any rate, I made further subsiquent arguments that IMO dealt with most
of the remaining counterarguments; refer to subsiquent posts).
> obviously), as well as the new settlers (remember the role of the
> displaced inhabitants of Gaity, esp. Tristilla).
>
See my arguments as to why folks would be much more likely to retire to
Bellissaria (which is also much nearer to Gaity than Esterhold) than to a
place that is a hotbed of insurection and strife.
The fact that they went to Esterhold rather than tranquil Bellissaria just
proves my point (see previous screeds on that subject).
>
> WAS, not IS.
>
deus ex machina city; as I made reference to in earlier posts, all the
sudden the brutal tyrants disapear, and a new population of enlightened,
democratic Alphatians takes their place, moving not to tranquil
Bellissaria, but to a land which is hardly much safer/quiet/calm than the
one they left behind.
Plausable?
Not IMO.
I respectfully disent.
>
> Go away with it? Please read the MA before saying that. There is so much
> going on in the NACE and Esterhold that are not rosy...
>
We will see what comes, but we are at this point dubious at best. There are
reasons why I only skim the Net Almanacs, and the fact that I get worked up
into a lather by what I have read is one of them.
I'm too young, I don't want to die of heart failure brought on by
apolectic shock. 8-)
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:45:50 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
>Of course, one has to ask the question: would horse-riding, savage
>barbarians forgive the Alphatians for decades (centuries?) of
oppression and
>become interested in democracy, or would they rather happily slaughter
those
>poor fools who came to them offering citizenship?
>
>Remember, the Jennites are wild barbarians, not modern Europeans.
Democracy
>would most likely hold little of interest to them. Especially since
their
>own 'primitive' society is more than likely democratic enough for their
>tastes, without the bastard Alphatians in it.
You go a bit fast here. There are Jennites and Jennites.
Of course you have the free Jannites that live outside of Esterhold (or
in its wilderness) and are the barbarians you mention.
However, there are also the Jennite slaves that lived in Alphatian
cities for generations (could someone check since when please?). Some of
these have kept their culture. But some have (partially) adopted the
ways of the Alphatians (even if they were forced to) and are not
becessarily willing to return to savage ways. Some are even literate and
organized (especially in Blackrock, where the rebels were quite well
organized). How many blacks returned to Africa after the civil war? How
many returned to tribal ways within the US? And how many continued on
their lives as before, just no more being slave (but still laborers,
generally) but just with a little more hope of going up in the social
ladder? Well, same can be said for the Jennites.
As I see it, the Jennites in Blackrock were more organized/integrated,
and used to deal with Alphatian as allies (there were some Alphatians
like Favian Vern in their rebel movement). And the Alphatians did help
them, did not betray them, offered them freedom at last and now treat
them as equals, so they are willing to trust them further (note that not
all of them think this way, but some do, especially the educated leaders
of the former rebel movement that now rule and try to head the country
in that direction). OTOH, in Verdan, the Jennites were never as
organized and even more badly treated, and do not trust the Alphatians
whoever they are, even if they helped them overthrow Nicodemus etc. They
still believe the Alphatians are up to the worst, whatever niceties they
are doing at the time. So they prefer to move first. And here, the
situation is much more dangerous.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:46:05 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
> One thing I never understood about Thincol's illness; I mean, this
>is what I would have done if I were an Immortal looking to gain some
>powerful worshippers and pick up some PP at the same time: Why didn't
>any Immortal appear to Thincol (in a dream or teleport him to an Outer
>Plane, or something), tell him that you will cure him and restore
>Thyatian glory if he worships you (being careful not to reveal that
this
>is a deal; don't want those pesky mortals to realize that you need them
>:)), fix Vanya's curse, and send newly restored Thincol home with some
>nifty new magic items (maybe even some carefully controlled artifacts,
>or some vicious spells from other TSR worlds for Thyatian mages).
> Thincol comes back, smashes a few traditional enemies, sucessfully
>negotiates the end to a bread riot, and explains to everyone the
>glorious message he has received. Now popular, and with restore health
>as proof of divine favor, Thincol leads all of Thyatis to worship
>whichever immortal invests a pittance of PP. I'd say that counts as a
>major stroke for Vanya, which nets our friend, what, 50 PP?
>
I voiced a similar idea about a month ago but it was pretty much
ignored. It seems that certain events MUST happen for the good of all no
matter how easy it is to find a solution, but that`s just IMOO. <:-p
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:42:43 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
>
> But meanwhile Thincol would have found a way to protect himself from such
a
> Wish.
>
Of course. IMO, what generally occurs if some mortal (who has no right to
meddle in affairs best left to his or her betters anyhow) starts using
Wishes to disrupt the world (and the carefully designed schemes. . .er,
plans. . .of the aforementioned betters), then Immortals with an interest
in the person or region involved "rectify" it.
IMO, mortal Wishes are probably the one sphere where semi-direct
intervention is allowed. Wishes that are overly disruptive are just negated
in some fashion. Thus you don't have important people's lives being
unsettled by some Wizard with a Wish in his hand and a dream in his heart.
> Besides as the wording gets more convoluted the wish is more likely to
fail.
> I once had a PCs with a ring of Wish and he used to write down his wish
on
> a piece of paper, correct it several times and then hand it over to me
:-)
>
Been there myself. *G*
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:46:04 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - NACE, Monster's Island & Ionace
> The Council holds meeting in a dedicated building on Ionace, called the
> Parliament.
>
Parliament? I can see where this is headed. . .
>
> Broderick: Well, many reasons converged to this place being chosen. One
of
> them was that we needed many buildings that could host our government
> officials immediately until we could construct new ones, and the
abandoned
> buildings of Denwarf-Hurgon, that had resisted the sinking and
earthquakes...
>
And where the army sent by Zandor had already come to grief. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . .
As for the rest, I dealt with that in a prior missive.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:52:16 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Thothia is just a desert, but they should eat something, shouldn't they?
> Create food is an option, but I think buying food from, say, Bellisaria
is
> a far more common practice.
>
Ancient Egypt is just a desert, right? Except for a thin strip of land
running down the middle of it, which happens to have been the Nile River
basin.
Thothia is "just" a desert with a nice river valley running right down the
middle. IMO, Thothia easily grows enough food to feed itself, and if
anything it could probably export grain.
>
> > I remember from Talons of Night though that the place seemed
absolutely
> >riddled with corruption (and aranea). I also remember that the PCs
don't
> >actually do a great deal to stop that - they take out the Night Spider
> >herself, and Aketheti (but not necessarily permanently - she is a
vampire,
> >and they don't know that), Ramenhotep X is still around, and so are the
> >many, many, many aranean minions. I don't think Thothia would be
> >sufficiently stable to have Imperial aspirations of their own, so
perhaps
> >thats why they joined the NACE.
>
Where are the actual signs of this instability? I mean, actual events. Or
is this just an argument put forward to justify an action for which
otherwise their is no apparent need, and IMO probably no real desire?
All these potential problems remain in the domain of the theoretical, none
of them are ever actualized. But more on that later.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:02:22 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Physics and Mystara
>>we can always contine to discuss it in private email. :-)
>> Jenni
>>-=> strawberryJAMM <=-
>
>
>Hey, if you take this private would you mind a tag-along? This seems to
have
>hit the nail on the head so to speak. Fascinating :-)
>
>Later.
>
Me too I`m slowly catching up to realtime with the postings and this one
is cool. <;-P
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:09:21 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Why?
> Didn't the Americans and Russians fight side by side the Nazis? It
> happens all the time that people who normally do not get along well
> agree to cooperate for a time to achieve some result.
>
They don't join each other's countries in perpetual union and friendship.
Take the EC: 1) the Ruskies aint in it. 2) Yes, such "close personal
friends" [NOT!] as France & Germany, England & France, etc, are in the EC.
. .but it took 50 years to get things to where they are now, and the EC is
still not a "United States of Europe" and likely won't be for another 10
years (and quite possibly, almost certainly, much longer, IMO.)
An overnight unification is "unlikely at best" IMO.
> So, maybe the Jennites didn't trust the NACE too much at first (they're
> Alphatians), but since they were giving their help to overthrow evil
> Xanthus and Nicodemus, why refuse?
>
Xanthus & Nicodemus being Alphatian overlords that had been kept in power
by the threat of Alphatian force for a long time. See my screed on
"Self-interest. . .enlightened self-interest but self-interest none the
less" for an extensive (if disordered) polemic on that subject.
>
> Of course it's a different Alphatia. The old one died iin the sinking.
> Now they have to redefine their society and their place in the world
> (same can be said for HW Alphatia, BTW).
>
Among the survivors their old social order and social attitudes would sink
along with Metro A?
I'm not sure about that. A strong argument that they'd want to cling as
much as possible to "the greatness of the Alphatian people" could be put
forward.
> And this is true for Thyatis too, they have to find their new place in a
> world where their enemy is gone.
>
We'll see what happens.
IMO, that is one reason why I prefer to control the direction of my own
campaign. I can highlight flaws (Thyatis' too, btw), initiate changes,
etc., and not have to rely on the ideas of others, which I will often find.
. . .disagreement with.
If their is a reason I haven't thouroughly read everything in the Net
Almanacs, it is partly based on that. I love arguing about this stuff
though, and it was my hope to perhaps influence the direction of the
"canon" stuff in some degree. But I see that is impossible. I just hope
that the back and forth over these things isn't annoying thouse who aren't
interested in these screeds.
> Traladans and Thyatians, etc). True, Thyatis's flaws have been
> highlighted most, but this is likely temporary, until Thyatis sheds its
> old skin.
>
Again, we'll have to see what happens with that. IMO, overnight social
revolution which would "benifit" Thyatis and make it a more lovable place
would be just as implausable, IMO, as doing it for Alphatia is. As I think
I wrote elsewhere, IMC changes are underway, but they haven't advanced to
the point where democratic governments are being established in former
slaveholds.
>
> I really like your northern Ireland analogy. Gives me ideas. Actually I
> was leaning toward an Italy (politically), but adding elements of Irish
> IRA is very good an idea.
>
See my latest screeds as to why neither Ireland nor Italy would be the
right analogy, and a Algerian decolonial analogy would be, IMO, more apt.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:17:33 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>[On a totally different topic, I just wish to say: that's no way to
decide
>a match. Something has to be better than penalty kick shootouts.]
>
Fireballs at five paces perhaps? <;-P
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #493
********************************
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mystara-digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 494
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Physics and Mystara
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
[MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:11:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> On the contrary, consider that there were black slaveowners who fought on
the side of
> the South in the War of Northern Aggression *wicked grin* to preserve
their way of
> life.
>
Was that the majority view of the blacks in general?
As I said, their would be some Quislings & collaborators, but IMO hardly
enough to make the *decisive* difference.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I DO happen to like Karameikos (big surprise)
At 07:13 AM 7/10/98 PDT, you wrote:
>BTW which side will you be on when the CK civil war begins? Will my
>PC`s have an enemy or an ally? Either way you seem to be a person of
>some importance so further details of you could prove useful! <;-P
>
For that you'll have to wait and see...Alexius' story will be intertwined
with that intense religious discussion. However, I will say this much;
Serrah (IMC) was half-Thyatian, half-Traladaran. You may draw your own
conclusions.
It is nice to be referred to as a person of some importance, though. For
those who have been following Alexius' quest, would his game statistics be
welcome? I could post them as well, if there was some interest. I can post
either D&D or AD&D, it doesn't matter.
Glen
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: the Science of Magic
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, paul dooley wrote:
> Just to make sure you get it. Time ISN`T th 4th dimension!
Paul, tell that to any student of special relativity.
Max IV - This discussion ended a while ago.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:21:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, paul dooley wrote:
> Hold on a minute! Wasn`t the Federation originally set up by Khronus
> from early Blackmoor evacuees?
A big no!
AFAIK, the Federation may not even be in Mystara's Dimension. I think the
Beagle got sucked through a portal, then crashed on Mystara. (I think this
is from the SE gaz)
Max IV
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:18:50 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> organized). How many blacks returned to Africa after the civil war? How
> many returned to tribal ways within the US? And how many continued on
> their lives as before, just no more being slave (but still laborers,
> generally) but just with a little more hope of going up in the social
> ladder? Well, same can be said for the Jennites.
>
Well, their is Liberia.
But, again, the analogy to the US does not hold well. I.E. if the slave
population of, say, Bellissaria were suddenly liberated, then the analogy
would fit.
However, Esterhold is more of a "colonial" situation. Again, I believe
that analogies to Africa (Algeria, Nigeria, etc) are more apt.
> As I see it, the Jennites in Blackrock were more organized/integrated,
> and used to deal with Alphatian as allies <sniped rosy scenario>
>
I've already posted my arguments in the alternative, so I won't repeat;
I'll only say that nothing I've read so far has changed my opinion of the
likely, realistic, reaction.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:25:34 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
To begin with, Favian Vern is not a crackpot wizard, but a crackpot
priest. He believes in the ideals of freedom, equality among men (and
other races), and democracy (what a fool;). I wondered which Immortal he
follows, okay I checked and it's Razud. Well, sounds good.
Favian Vern has been allowed to pursue with his experiment with
democracy for two reasons: first, he's the leader of Esterhold (the
council named him, with the approval of the rebels and Broderick), and
has a franchise to choose whatever form of government he wishes for his
nation; secondly, he benefits from great prestige amid the council, even
if not all of them approve of his ideas: He helped Haldemar subdue
Zandor, has become friend with Broderick and Gratia and Tristilla, and
even before he was a respected sage and cleric of Razud.
Some of the council members support his plan (Gratia, who does not fear
democracy - it may not happen in Surshield anyway, that anarchist and
militaristic land), some of his friends don't support him (Broderick -
he thinks democracy would only weaken the empire and put power in the
hands of morons), some are a bit worried at the prospect (Ericall,
Zynnia), some don't care (Ramenhotep - it's unlikely to spread to
Thothia), some would like Vern to fail (Norlan, Floating Ar
conservatives, Aquas conservatives).
>> I never said the change would be easy. Quite the contrary - i was up
for
>> some terrorism on the part of the Jennites.
>>
>Yes, but your reasoning is flawed, basing it on an analogy with
Northern
>Ireland. In Northern Ireland the Irish Catholics were the minority. The
>reason a "Northern Ireland" existed at all was because it, unlike the
other
>Irish counties, voted to remain part of Great Britain, while the rest
voted
>to separate.
> In Esterhold the vast majority of the population is Jennite. You say
that
>the former Alphatian population (the opressors) were driven out, so
this
>means that by this point the population is almost exclusively Jennite
(now,
>before some claim, as no doubt they will, that displaced and very nice,
>enlightened, unbigoted Alphatians settled there after the war to
provide a
>new Alphatian population base, I'll respectfully disent; see below).
> They would be highly unlikely, for reasons already described, to want
to
>provide any support whatsoever to the empire of their former opressors.
>
> Now, to counter the argument before it appears: No sane Alphatian
refugee
>would be likely to move to Esterhold, because of it's horrid nature.
>Alphatian refugees would be much more likely to settle on the Isle of
Dawn
>(that's where most of them would have been, or would have been near, at
the
>end of the war) or Bellissaria (a nice, quiet place, as opposed to a
hotbed
>of insurection and strife). The idea that they'd enjoy retireing to
>Esterhold is not rational.
Yes and no. Actually some of them were forced to, namely the former
inhabitants of Gaity, that were parked by Thyatians in Gaity Park until
Tristilla obtained a chart to ship them to Esterhold. Those Alphatians
were used to living in a park, and probably did not like what they see
in Esterhold; they are part of those enlightened settlers (though they
were probably not thinking to democracy).
Other possible settlers are those troops left stranded on the OW when
Alphatia sank. They went a bit anywhere, but probably some of them were
attracted to Esterhold. Why? Because it was one of the last frontier
land, with the Jennites east. They came here to make war (remember some,
but not all, of these troops were professional soldiers), but instead
discovered what life was like here, and maybe sided with the rebels (or
more likely/more exactly, with Broderick). Only a guess, though.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:55:40 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> To begin with, Favian Vern is not a crackpot wizard, but a crackpot
> priest.
>
I didn't say he was a Wizad, I went with what was given. IMO, it isn't
important if he's a Wizard, a Priest, a Mystic, or a "Hopeless
Character"-classed person {from on old Dragon mag.}
> He believes in the ideals of freedom, equality among men (and
> other races), and democracy (what a fool;).
>
deus ex machina
> if not all of them approve of his ideas: He helped Haldemar subdue
> Zandor, has become friend with Broderick and Gratia and Tristilla, and
> even before he was a respected sage and cleric of Razud. <sniped>
>
All fine, but IMO beside the point, since I still maintain that "Democratic
Reform" out of the blue is not in character for Alphatia, and nothing yet
has convinced me otherwise.
>
> Yes and no. Actually some of them were forced to, namely the former
> inhabitants of Gaity, that were parked by Thyatians in Gaity Park until
> Tristilla obtained a chart to ship them to Esterhold.
>
Why they took the long journey to perilous Esterhold (2,000 miles to Cape
Hook) and not the short journey to tranquil Bellissaria (200 miles to
Dubbo) is beyond me. IIRC, that happened in the canon (PWA II or III, can't
remember right now), but it was still unrealistic.
Deus ex machina.
> Other possible settlers are those troops left stranded on the OW when
> Alphatia sank. They went a bit anywhere, but probably some of them were
> attracted to Esterhold. Why? Because it was one of the last frontier
> land, with the Jennites east.
>
Bellissaria has 1 person per 4 square miles, IMO it's as much a frontier as
anywhere else (anything less than 10 persons per squ. mile is still
sparsely settled, IMO).
> They came here to make war (remember some,
> but not all, of these troops were professional soldiers), but instead
> discovered what life was like here, and maybe sided with the rebels (or
> more likely/more exactly, with Broderick). Only a guess, though.
>
IMO, the warriors would settle on IoD, where they could repell their old
nemisis, rather than seek transport 2,000 miles to Esterhold.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:01:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Herve said,
>As I see it, the Jennites in Blackrock were more organized/integrated,
>and used to deal with Alphatian as allies (there were some Alphatians
>like Favian Vern in their rebel movement). And the Alphatians did help
>them, did not betray them, offered them freedom at last and now treat
>them as equals, so they are willing to trust them further (note that not
>all of them think this way, but some do, especially the educated leaders
>of the former rebel movement that now rule and try to head the country
>in that direction). OTOH, in Verdan, the Jennites were never as
>organized and even more badly treated, and do not trust the Alphatians
>whoever they are, even if they helped them overthrow Nicodemus etc. They
>still believe the Alphatians are up to the worst, whatever niceties they
>are doing at the time. So they prefer to move first. And here, the
>situation is much more dangerous.
>
Thank you, Herve, for clearing this up. Myself, I saw this difference
too, though I must admit it hadn't occurred to me until you "reminded" me. :)
Even in DotE, Verdan is mentioned as being the worse of the two Alphatian
colonies in Esterhold.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:24:53 -0700
From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" <strawberry@jamm.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Physics and Mystara
Jessie, Paul and others:
At 09:02 AM 7/10/98 PDT, paul dooley wrote:
>>>we can always contine to discuss it in private email. :-)
>>> Jenni
>>>-=> strawberryJAMM <=-
>>
>>
>>Hey, if you take this private would you mind a tag-along? This seems to
>>have hit the nail on the head so to speak. Fascinating :-)
>>
>>Later.
>>
>Me too I`m slowly catching up to realtime with the postings and this one
>is cool. <;-P
Just so you (and others) know, this hasn't yet been taken 'offline' --
very few have replied to David's original post and, other than the comments
from you two saying you thought my comments were interesting, no one has
replied to my reply :-)
As an aside about 'off-topic' posts, try not to get too uptight about
sending the occational 'off-topic' post. A short flurry of off-topic
commentary is frequently acceptable on any mail list. Its really when an
off-topic thread starts to (a) drag on and on and has little Mystara or
oD&D relevance or (b) is getting abusive, confrontational and/or incendiary
that people should start to think about shifting the whole thing offline.
I might add that even when situation (a) is true, as long as situation (b)
/ISN'T/ true, it may be acceptable to keep such a thread online a bit
longer, especially if there are a lot of participants who seem to be
genuinely interested in the topic. Remember, if ever a thread does start
to get out of control, Leroy will surely let us know.
I believe that the members of the MML could probably tolerate a few
additional messages of commentary on David's original premiss, Re: Physics
(well, Physicists really) and Mystara, or even on my own little bit of
psycho-babble, if anyone is so inclined. If we find that we end up with
more than just a few messages in this thread, especially if there isn't
much 'Mystara Specific' content to most of them (like my reply, for
example), we can drag the whole thing offline then.
Jenni
- --
Jenni A. M. Merrifield http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html
- -=> strawberryJAMM <=- strawberry@jamm.com
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:24:53 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> >
> Thank you, Herve, for clearing this up. Myself, I saw this difference
> too, though I must admit it hadn't occurred to me until you "reminded"
me. :)
>
> Even in DotE, Verdan is mentioned as being the worse of the two Alphatian
> colonies in Esterhold.
>
The worst of two particularly bad places. Nessus is worse than Caina, but
I'd hardly call either of them beatific places.
*For thouse who don't know, thouse are the 9th & 8th layers of Hell, c.f.
Ed Greenwoods Dragon mag. descriptions & later materiel on them.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:26:57 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>experiment. However, the Jennites may well consider themselves better
off -
>they get to govern themselves, have free control of local policy, and so
on.
>They have to contribute to the Alphatian Army, and the Imperial Treasury
(ie
>tax) but aside from that... If the situation destabilises further the
Hey, guess what? If the Jennites throw out the Alphatians, they will still
get to govern themselves, have free control of local policy, and so on. And
they won't even have to contribute to the Alphatian Army or Treasury...
I just don't see what the Jennites want from the Alphatians which they
cannot also get without the Alphatians (except to kill them).
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website!
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:05:17 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
> One of my biggest problems, as things developed (slowly, over time), is
>that the "Known World" region is deplorably congested with petty states,
>while outside of that there are these huge blocks. IMO, a Thothia that
>governed the "Alphatian" portion of the IoD would have been a step towards
>rectifying that.
Well I consider most of the KW countries to be firmly under the protective
wing of the Thyatian Empire. They all speak Thyatian, after all.
> No one wants to hear my ideas for "cleaning up" Mystara, but they include
>divesting both empires of their colonial posessions (Alphatia would center
>on Bellsissaria, which as I have already argued is easily big enough to be
>an Empire all by itself), with Thyatis gaining in compensation Karameikos,
>Minrothad & Ierendi. Alfheim would have joined Darokin (but something else
>happened there. . .) with Wendar becoming the "elven" nation, and Vestland
>& Soderfjord would become one nation.
> Then, with fewer (but larger/more viable) countries in the "Known World",
>the focus could move out to the wider world as a whole. But, alas, this
>will never happen.
Hmm. I don't really like the idea of a mass decolonisation... I think the
KW is not improbable, its the Mystaran equivalent of Europe (I dont know how
long the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg has been around, but I'll bet its been a
fair while, despite Germans and French periodically marching over them).
Historically there have been large power blocs (the Soviet Union, the EU,
the Spanish and British Empires and so on). Maybe Mystara is in a "power
bloc" stage of its history...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:08:33 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> Also don't remember that the situation in Esterhold is different in
>> 1014/1015 than it was in 1000. Now the dictators have been ousted by the
>> NACE, Favian Vern, other Alphatians, and of course Jennites. The slaves
>> have been freed.
>>
>And they've been feebleminded into forgetting the past (or, if you play
>AD&D, the spell "Programed Amnesia" works very well)?
> IMO, they'd be very anti-colonialist. Most would bear forever the scars of
>the whip on their back, and I'm not sure they'd be very forgiving unless
>they were under the influence of Programed Amnesia (if the Council got
>involved, that could be arranged, I'm sure). (Programed Amnesia is a nasty
>spell. IMO, over the top in many ways, but it's available if you want 'em
>to use it).
Programmed Amnesia only works on one person, IIRC. Otherwise it is Truly
Gross.
They may be anti colonial, but they may still end up a colony. India
remained a colony until the end of World War 2, despite a string of various
atrocities going well back into the 19th century.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:15:35 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> > I remember from Talons of Night though that the place seemed
>absolutely
>> >riddled with corruption (and aranea). I also remember that the PCs
>don't
>> >actually do a great deal to stop that - they take out the Night Spider
>> >herself, and Aketheti (but not necessarily permanently - she is a
>vampire,
>> >and they don't know that), Ramenhotep X is still around, and so are the
>> >many, many, many aranean minions. I don't think Thothia would be
>> >sufficiently stable to have Imperial aspirations of their own, so
>perhaps
>> >thats why they joined the NACE.
>>
>Where are the actual signs of this instability? I mean, actual events. Or
>is this just an argument put forward to justify an action for which
>otherwise their is no apparent need, and IMO probably no real desire?
> All these potential problems remain in the domain of the theoretical, none
>of them are ever actualized. But more on that later.
Well, in Talons of Night the aranea basically ran the place, and all the
humans seemed to be mere peons. But the aranea arent dumb - the more land
they grab, the more chance other nations find out about them, because they
will have to police the land that they have captured. As part of the NACE
they have more political rather than military power, which is what I imagine
aranea to prefer (sneaky spider types).
There are no visible signs of instability, but that was because of the grip
the aranea had. As to the situation after Talons of Night, its very much
upto the individual DM. But personally I reckon that a secret "occupation"
so deeply entrenched would still be about in some form, even if a bunch of
high level killing machines went through the place...
Was only a semi joking suggestion...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:17:43 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
- ----->> On the contrary, consider that there were black slaveowners who
fought on
>the side of
>> the South in the War of Northern Aggression *wicked grin* to preserve
>their way of
>> life.
>>
>Was that the majority view of the blacks in general?
> As I said, their would be some Quislings & collaborators, but IMO hardly
>enough to make the *decisive* difference.
Well, the educated would be the ones who see the advantages, the rabble
would still be nationalistic. But its the educated who usually run the
show, in some form or another.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:19:41 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
- -----
>Bellissaria has 1 person per 4 square miles, IMO it's as much a frontier as
>anywhere else (anything less than 10 persons per squ. mile is still
>sparsely settled, IMO).
Just out of interest - how large is a hectare compared to a square mile?
Because I may challenge that point...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:21:04 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Well, in Talons of Night the aranea basically ran the place, and all the
> humans seemed to be mere peons. <snip>
>
I have, and have enjoyed, Talons of Night. My point is that nothing ever
seems to pop up in the Timeline.
Your point that "it's up to the individual DM" is one of the things that
has me argue against scripted timelines to begin with. However, they are an
enjoyable read, and I enjoy quibbling over them, but the argument that
problems shouldn't arise in the timeline because they should be left up to
the individual DM can be applied to Mystara as a whole, not just the NACE.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:27:57 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> Just out of interest - how large is a hectare compared to a square mile?
> Because I may challenge that point...
>
I could look it up. There are 360 Acres to a Square Mile, and IIRC a few
hectares per Acre, but I can't remember for sure.
Anyhow, one comparison is Byzantium had circa 10+ people per square km,
based on the most scolarly analysis, in circa 800 AD, and their are about 3
sq. km per sq. mile.
Footnote, from P. 453, "The Byzantine Revival", by Warren Treadgold:
Empire had circa 700,000 sq km in 780, and circa 7,000,000 population.
By 842 circa 800,000 sq km and circa 8,000,000 population.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:41:29 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
- ---
> Your point that "it's up to the individual DM" is one of the things that
>has me argue against scripted timelines to begin with. However, they are an
>enjoyable read, and I enjoy quibbling over them, but the argument that
>problems shouldn't arise in the timeline because they should be left up to
>the individual DM can be applied to Mystara as a whole, not just the NACE.
I love the scripted timelines! Best thing about the planet. It gives the
impression of a dynamic rather than static world. Of course you shouldnt be
constrained by it - no more than you are constrained than an adventure that
you write.
And they are very cool to read, and cooler to quibble over...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:43:10 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>> Just out of interest - how large is a hectare compared to a square mile?
>> Because I may challenge that point...
>>
>I could look it up. There are 360 Acres to a Square Mile, and IIRC a few
>hectares per Acre, but I can't remember for sure.
>
>Anyhow, one comparison is Byzantium had circa 10+ people per square km,
>based on the most scolarly analysis, in circa 800 AD, and their are about 3
>sq. km per sq. mile.
>
>Footnote, from P. 453, "The Byzantine Revival", by Warren Treadgold:
> Empire had circa 700,000 sq km in 780, and circa 7,000,000 population.
> By 842 circa 800,000 sq km and circa 8,000,000 population.
Mmm. Just that the population of Devon (a county in England) is 1.8 people
per hectare. I just wanted to know how that compares. I should be
massively larger, of course.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:00:20 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
I would argue that it did not have anything to do with education. It has to do
with benefiting or not benefiting from a system. The black slaveowners
benefited from the system, ergo they defended it.
The same could hold true for the Jennite question...
Although I agree with whomever said Belisarria would be a more appropriate
analogy to the American system...
Rob wrote:
> ----->> On the contrary, consider that there were black slaveowners who
> fought on
> >the side of
> >> the South in the War of Northern Aggression *wicked grin* to preserve
> >their way of
> >> life.
> >>
> >Was that the majority view of the blacks in general?
> > As I said, their would be some Quislings & collaborators, but IMO hardly
> >enough to make the *decisive* difference.
>
> Well, the educated would be the ones who see the advantages, the rabble
> would still be nationalistic. But its the educated who usually run the
> show, in some form or another.
>
> Cheerz
>
> ROB
>
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:59:20 -0700
From: "Harvey, MichaelX" <michaelx.harvey@intel.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
On Friday, July 10, 1998 11:28 AM, James Ruhland
[SMTP:jruhlconob@sprynet.com] wrote:
> There are 360 Acres to a Square Mile,
No, there are 640 (actually 639.9974)
> and IIRC a
> few
> hectares per Acre, but I can't remember for sure.
There are 2.471044 acres per hectare.
There is a very nifty Windows program ("convert") that converts nearly any
english or metric units, even some I've never heard of (like rankine, therm,
torr, and even pounds-per-cubic-inch). You can find it at
http://www.joshmadison.com/software/
The only thing I wanted that is *missing* is a distance conversion for
leagues. Fortunately you can add custom units to the program... anyone know
what the correct ratio is (miles to leagues)?
Mike
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #494
********************************
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mystara-digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 495
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Tinkering with the KW.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Tinkering with the KW.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Tinkering with the KW.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
[MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:01:32 -0700
From: "Harvey, MichaelX" <michaelx.harvey@intel.com>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
On Friday, July 10, 1998 11:43 AM, Rob [SMTP:rmunch@easynet.co.uk] wrote:
> >> Just out of interest - how large is a hectare compared to a square
> >> mile?
There are 258.9988 hectares per sq. mi, and 0.4046863 hectares per acre.
Mike
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:11:49 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tinkering with the KW.
>
> Well I consider most of the KW countries to be firmly under the
protective
> wing of the Thyatian Empire. They all speak Thyatian, after all.
>
They are? Then why are they forming alliances to deter Thyatian agression?
IMO, most KW countries (and their defenders) would vehemently reject any
suggestion that they are in some fashion Thyatian "protectorates"
>
> Hmm. I don't really like the idea of a mass decolonisation... I think
the
> KW is not improbable,
>
oh, I'm not saying it's improbable (the current situation), it is just IMO
that a reduction in the # of countries in that region would be one way to
shift focus outside the area; with fewer areas in that corner of the world
to give attention to, their would be more time & space for previously
neglected regions.
As for decolonization, IMO that would be one way to create independant
places close to the KW nations. But the only place anyone wants to
decolonize are the Thyatic colonies. I guess if that's all I'd be allowed,
then that would be fine, but without a reduction in the # of KW nations IMO
the congestion would remain.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:20:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Rob wrote:
> > As I said, their would be some Quislings & collaborators, but IMO hardly
> >enough to make the *decisive* difference.
>
> Well, the educated would be the ones who see the advantages, the rabble
> would still be nationalistic. But its the educated who usually run the
> show, in some form or another.
I think that those educated Jennites would look at the evidence (many
years of slavery and oppression without being allowed any say in how
things are run) and most likely come to the conclusion that Alphatians are
not to be trusted and worked with. Also remember the Alphatian disdain
for religion and for fighters, two keys of the HW Jennites (and probably
for the OW Jennites as well) and this would further the anti-Alphatian
impulse among the former slaves.
They'd rewrite Exodus to include a car crash - Walter Cronkite, on modern
television
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:15:51 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> There are 258.9988 hectares per sq. mi, and 0.4046863 hectares per acre.
>
Thanks for the clarification. I always forget the conversion ratio, myself.
:(
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:24:19 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
>> There are 360 Acres to a Square Mile,
>
>No, there are 640 (actually 639.9974)
>
>
>There are 2.471044 acres per hectare.
Wow. So there are 2845.44 people per square mile in Devon (one of the
lowest population densities in the country, incidentally).
Compared to around 30 people per square mile in 800AD Byzantium.
Now that rams home the population explosion...
Cheerz
ROB
>There is a very nifty Windows program ("convert") that converts nearly any
>english or metric units, even some I've never heard of (like rankine,
therm,
>torr, and even pounds-per-cubic-inch). You can find it at
>http://www.joshmadison.com/software/
>
>The only thing I wanted that is *missing* is a distance conversion for
>leagues. Fortunately you can add custom units to the program... anyone
know
>what the correct ratio is (miles to leagues)?
>
>Mike
>
>
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:26:22 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Ooops. I'm crap at maths :)
466 people per square mile in Devon.
Still a lot though. I wonder how Greater London would compare...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:34:57 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tinkering with the KW.
>They are? Then why are they forming alliances to deter Thyatian agression?
> IMO, most KW countries (and their defenders) would vehemently reject any
>suggestion that they are in some fashion Thyatian "protectorates"
I dont know! I thought that was aimed more at Hule than Thyatis. I dont
think the combined might of the KW could match Thyatis', anyway, if it
became a battle of life and death.
>oh, I'm not saying it's improbable (the current situation), it is just IMO
>that a reduction in the # of countries in that region would be one way to
>shift focus outside the area; with fewer areas in that corner of the world
>to give attention to, their would be more time & space for previously
>neglected regions.
Shift attention to where precisely? The Empires occupy only a fraction of
the planet (even the developed planet).
Sounds like you need to play in the Savage Coast...
Or Davania?
> As for decolonization, IMO that would be one way to create independant
>places close to the KW nations. But the only place anyone wants to
>decolonize are the Thyatic colonies. I guess if that's all I'd be allowed,
>then that would be fine, but without a reduction in the # of KW nations IMO
>the congestion would remain.
Decolonise Thyatis??????????
Thats heresy, I'm afraid :)
Seems pretty unlikely, as well, to be honest.
Perhaps some more development of the planet is required. Places like Zyxl
and that sort of thing. Lands to the north of the Yazak Steppes (Ive always
said that Conanesque areas are up there - the map isnt actually hugely
dissimilar to map provided by that Conan module TSR did).
Seems better than simply scrubbing some very cool KW nations.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:37:21 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
In a message dated 98-07-10 11:52:40 EDT, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
<<I think it would add some depth to consider there may very well be
spellcasting
Jennites who would side with the Alphatians...and who might consider the New
Alphatian Confederate Empire to be a good thing... >>
or look at it as a mystaran version of the boxer rebellion meets vietnam.
jennite intellectuals (mages) taught by the alphatians first support nace and
broderick to oust king xanthus (main immediate threat). this done they begin
desiring true independance. to boot out alphatia takes more tact than ousting
xanthus. afterall the jennites had to have the aid of the alphatians to do
that. so the jennite intellectuals and their jennite allies enact civil unrest
in the form of guerrilla fighters and partisans. the intellectuals use the
civil unrest to influence the alphatians (such as Vern) to enact measures to
fix things (elections). these measures have a more covert purpose. they are
set to place pro seperatists in power and organize the resistance.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:33:58 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
>
> No, there are 640 (actually 639.9974)
>
Doh! I knew that.
What was I thinking of?
Hmmmn. . .thanks for correcting my stupid mistake.
I'm really bad at conversions and for important things I usually look 'em
up.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:30 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-10 12:08:32 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
<< > Thothia is just a desert, but they should eat something, shouldn't they?
> Create food is an option, but I think buying food from, say, Bellisaria
is
> a far more common practice.
>
Ancient Egypt is just a desert, right? Except for a thin strip of land
running down the middle of it, which happens to have been the Nile River
basin.
Thothia is "just" a desert with a nice river valley running right down the
middle. IMO, Thothia easily grows enough food to feed itself, and if
anything it could probably export grain. >>
very true. if you look into the pwas you'll see that the crops were the reason
thothia and the alphatians did not pursue the conquest of the IoD. iirc it was
either harvest time or planting time. the thothian troops were needed to work
the feilds not only to feed its own people but to also see to the dietary
needs of the influx of displaced alphatians.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:50:34 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tinkering with the KW.
>
> Shift attention to where precisely? The Empires occupy only a fraction
of
> the planet (even the developed planet).
>
> Sounds like you need to play in the Savage Coast...
>
> Or Davania?
>
I like playing in Thyatis just fine. It just seemed to me that some folks
were wanting more focus for the rest of the planet, and IMO what tends to
keep the focus centered on the "Known World" is the (percieved) need to pay
attention to all 1 dozen (or so) nations in that region. If their were
fewer of them, then there would be more time & space for the Almanac team
(or TSR if they ever get things going again) to devote to these areas you
mention.
I.E. while Karameikos: KoA and Glantri: KoM were. . .nice. . .do we
*really* need to "re-run" the Gazzeteers in boxed form? Wouldn't it be
better to devote the same attention elsewhere?
For awhile they were doing that with the Savage Coast, true. But we'll
see, I guess.
>
> Decolonise Thyatis??????????
>
> Thats heresy, I'm afraid :)
>
> Seems pretty unlikely, as well, to be honest.
>
About as likely (or un) as Thyatis meekly accepting that Ochalea would stay
independant. IMO, if one is going to do unrealistic things (like create a
People's Democratic Aphatian Republic of Esterhold and All Things Benign),
then one may as well do "unrealistic" things that will positively affect
the gaming envoronment as well.
> Perhaps some more development of the planet is required. Places like
Zyxl
> and that sort of thing. Lands to the north of the Yazak Steppes (Ive
always
> said that Conanesque areas are up there - the map isnt actually hugely
> dissimilar to map provided by that Conan module TSR did).
>
> Seems better than simply scrubbing some very cool KW nations.
>
Yes, but will they really devote attention to that if they are busy
re-writting the Darokin gazzeteer, for example?
I have that. I'd much rather see something new(er). (c.f. "K:KoA" and
"G:KoM")
Also, many of these cool contries can be effectively "re-deployed"
elsewhere with the same flavor, IMO, if needed.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:03:10 -0500
From: "E Gray" <grayhome@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Harvey, MichaelX <michaelx.harvey@intel.com>
To: 'mystara-l@MPGN.COM' <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 2:09 PM
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
>The only thing I wanted that is *missing* is a distance conversion for
>leagues. Fortunately you can add custom units to the program... anyone
>know what the correct ratio is (miles to leagues)?
Well, approximately 3 miles, but it can vary from 2.42 to 4.6 statute miles
depending on who's talking.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:24:23 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>>prince, an orcish immortal of honor, even!); there are good undead; one of
>>the most powerful immortals of Entropy is more "good" than Ixion
>
>Out of interest, which Immortal did you have in mind? Nyx?
Yeah. Orc's Head in particular paints her as a compassionate figure.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:35:21 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
I don't really mind the name "NACE", I guess. IMO, like someone has
said, it is rather anacronistic.
I also dk why an officially recognized name change would occur; IMO, the
Alphatians would want to cling to "Alphatia" like a wino clinging to his
last bottle, and pretend that nothing fundamentally had changed.
I.E. when the western half of the Roman Empire had been overun, did the
Eastern portion change their name? No ("Byzantine" notwithstanding: that is
more of a modern inovation; it was never used by the "Byzantines"
themselves). Up all the way to 1453, they refered to their domain as
"Roman" and themselves as "Romans", even though by then the differences
between the Roman Empire of Augustus and the Roman Empire of, say, Basil II
Bulgarnoctonos were as great as the differences between France and England,
if not greater.
But quibbling about the name is a hobby at best. IMO, NACE is fine. And if
their is a People's Democratic Alphatian Republic of Esterhold and All
Things Benign, it will fit well ('cause then you can have an acronym for
that, too: PDAPEATB).
On the other hand, "Panglossia" also has its advantages. I.E. if that name
is adopted, if forms a kind of easily recognized descriptive reference
point, and a natural motto is created (Panglossia: "The Best of All
Possible Worlds"), and IMO more KW nations should have mottos and the like,
since little details like that create a sense of rich depth and history.
But NACE is ok, and there is really no reason to change it, I guess.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:48:07 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
> >
> >Out of interest, which Immortal did you have in mind? Nyx?
> Yeah. Orc's Head in particular paints her as a compassionate figure.
>
I'm tellin you, Nyx is a sweetie. 8-)
On the other hand, Ixion isn't horrible. Ok, he's a hardass and a
blowhard, certainly not "sweet" (except perhaps in Valerias' eyes), but he
was right about that Rad matter.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:02:26 EDT
From: Inconu@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
In a message dated 7/8/98 6:14:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brizio@lunet.it
writes:
>So, why didn't he send there
> someone to check what was going on?
<snip>
> And why no group of Karameikan PCs ever kidnapped Stefan and brought him to
> Fort Doom, as the halfling did in Ac 1010? Everybody knew about Ludwig
> evilness, but Stefan... now, this is unbelievable.
Stefan didn't pay attention to Ludwig because Ludwig was family. He didn't
want to believe that his cousin was evil.... He was in denial and never wanted
to face the problem. It's not too hard to believe. Obviously it was one of
Stefan's major faults, but nobody's record is going to be flawless.
- -Inconu
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:03:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> blowhard, certainly not "sweet" (except perhaps in Valerias' eyes), but he
> was right about that Rad matter.
True enough. There are very few truly EVIL immortals, Thanatos, Orcus, and
Arik come to mind.
Most Immortals are concerned with what they are interested in. Rad was
the "Bad guy", IMO, of WoTI, but he isn't evil.
Max IV
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:56:45 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
At 20.46 09/07/98 +0300, Aleksei Andrievski wrote:
> the conquest ("annexation") of Tilverton, etc.
Tilverton!
I left there my beloved gnome fighter, working at Gond's Temple...
Sorry for the OT.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:50:55 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
At 17.26 09/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>> Alphatia has never been an absolute Empire. Each kingdom has
>>semiautonomy,
>>
>Each Kingdom has semiautonomy, but all are constitutionally restricted to
>government by nobles (generally mages, though in colonies not nessisarily),
>the Alphatian social order seems broadly accepted by thouse who matter (the
>nobility), and ideas of sudden changes in it don't have any precident that
>I can locate anywhere.
Ok, this is how I see it: each Kingdom has semiautonomy and can choose to
govern itself as it likes. The only restriction is that the governor must
be a noble (generally a mage, though in colonies not necessarily).
Favian Vern is noble, he's the President (=ruler) of Esterhold and decides
to run his Kingdom as a democracy. Why should the other nobles (or even the
Empress) be worried about it?
Until he sends taxes and troops to the central governement the others
shouldn't worry about him.
Maybe they'll think he's a fool, he won't suceed in governing his Kingdom..
so what? If he fails he'll be replaced by someone else.
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:09:22 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elven Marriage Customs
At 04.09 10/07/98 -0700, Patrick Sullivan wrote:
>The recent discussions about marriage in Alfheim got me thinking:
>There is no formalized system of marriage in Alfheim--couples form and break
>as they wish.
>The Erewan and Belcadiz elves mate for life (except for Carmina).
>The Sheyallia have a very relaxed and impermanent custom for marriages.
>My conclusion is that ancient elven society did not include
>institutionalized marriage, but elven socieies that have prolonged contact
>with other races develop marriage practices to match those of the other
>race.
I disagree with you here. Shadow Elves do have a formalized marrying
custom, and a strong one too.
When shadow elves mate a ceremony is held and the male is adopted in the
wive's clan.
This also means the male must leave his clan and his birth-town and move to
the female's hometown.
OTOH Shadow Elves had prolonged contact with Blackmoorian before the GROF,
so maybe they adopted that custom from humans and your theory is correct.
Interesting discussion, it will be useful for something I'm preparing for
next Almanac.
**************
Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com
DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant
Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:57:37 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
> On the other hand, Ixion isn't horrible. Ok, he's a hardass and a
>blowhard, certainly not "sweet" (except perhaps in Valerias' eyes), but he
>was right about that Rad matter.
No, Khoronus was right abou the Rad matter: "The old order changeth, giving
place to the new/ Lest one good custom should corrupt the world...."
And anyway, Ixion's shown his mean streak in other matters: It's his fault
that the red curse is a curse and not a blessing; and he completely
abandoned the nation where he is most venerated, Sind, when it needed him
most.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:02:07 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>True enough. There are very few truly EVIL immortals, Thanatos, Orcus, and
>Arik come to mind.
>
>Most Immortals are concerned with what they are interested in. Rad was
>the "Bad guy", IMO, of WoTI, but he isn't evil.
I'm not even sure that Thanatos is really evil. He is the immortal of
death, and he basically embodies the sphere of entropy, but IMO his
personality is not really evil in the way of Orcus' or Arik's.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Patrick Sullivan wrote:
> death, and he basically embodies the sphere of entropy, but IMO his
> personality is not really evil in the way of Orcus' or Arik's.
Well, I'd consider his grand plot of "annhiliation of all existence" to be
pretty evil in my book. But that's just me :)
Max IV
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:21:11 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Elven Marriage Customs
>I disagree with you here. Shadow Elves do have a formalized marrying
>custom, and a strong one too.
>When shadow elves mate a ceremony is held and the male is adopted in the
>wive's clan.
>This also means the male must leave his clan and his birth-town and move to
>the female's hometown.
Good point, and one that I had overlooked. I did a little more research,
and I couldn't find anything at all about marriage among the Aquarendi. The
HW box kind of implies that the Icevale elves mate for life, but it also
gives the impression that the Blacklore and Gentle Folk do not. I douldn't
find any indication regarding the Calarii or Shiye-Llawr. DotE does not
specifically refer to elven marriage customs, but it does describe the
standard practice for the empire, which may or may not be followed in
Greenheight. I don't have the Minrothad Gaz, so I don't know about the
Meditor or Verdier.
>OTOH Shadow Elves had prolonged contact with Blackmoorian before the GROF,
>so maybe they adopted that custom from humans and your theory is correct.
>Interesting discussion, it will be useful for something I'm preparing for
>next Almanac.
Didn't Ilsundal's band stay with the Blackmoorians for a long time too? Or
am I confused? At any rate, I would say that the Erewan elves give the best
evidence that elves quickly assume the marriage habits of their neighbors,
since they are so like the Alfheim elves in most other ways.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:17:03 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Acres, Square Miles, etc.
>The only thing I wanted that is *missing* is a distance conversion for
>leagues. Fortunately you can add custom units to the program... anyone
>know what the correct ratio is (miles to leagues)?
>Mike
1 League= 3 Miles.
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:33:17 EDT
From: Ambreville@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - GenCon!!!
>>I believe it is still in Milwaukee. Can someone correct me?<< (Jeff Daly)
It's still in Milwaukee at least until Y2K included -- when the contract
w/Andon comes to an end. After this, I don't think any decision has been made
as of yet.
I'll be at GenCon touring the booths and meeting old friends. Hope to see a
few of you -- finally a chance to put faces on some of these names! :o)
Bruce Heard
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:27:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>
> Most Immortals are concerned with what they are interested in. Rad was
> the "Bad guy", IMO, of WoTI, but he isn't evil.
>
He was a personable enough guy. Misguided, blinded by his reasurch perhaps,
but a nice fellow.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:33:06 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
> Favian Vern is noble, he's the President (=ruler) of Esterhold and
decides
> to run his Kingdom as a democracy.
>
Where did this come from, this new spirit of Democracy?
That was, and remains, my problem with the concept from the begining. It
is, IMO, completely out of character for any Alphatian to be a democratic
republican.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #495
********************************
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mystara-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 496
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Scottish Accents
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Re: [MYSTARA] - NACE, Monster's Island & Ionace
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Scottish Accents
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:09:19 -0400
From: "DJ Sahlas" <dsahla@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magic/The Chronicles of the Unbeliever
>> For my part, I created a magic elven sword "Lomilialor" with some
>>characteristics of that type of "wood" from The Land. I got the idea when
>I
>>read about the wooden elven blades in The Elves of Alfheim gaz.
Jesse wrote:
>I'd like to see some stats on that. Do you use that wood on Mystara ?
Since you asked, I'll dig it up the next time I go home (I'm working in
Montreal, and so most of my FRPG archives are stashed at my folks place in
Mississauga, Ontario).
Might be a while, but it'll pop up on the list.
Jim Sahlas
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:40:18 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>Well, I'd consider his grand plot of "annhiliation of all existence" to be
>pretty evil in my book. But that's just me :)
But nothingness is not evil, it's just complete void. Most cultures see
death as a natural part of life, the Jewish religion (and its Christian and
Muslim offshoots) are really the only significant philosophies in which
death is seen as evil. But, at any rate, at least Thanatos is not sadistic,
like Orcus or Leptar.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:00:53 -0400
From: "DJ Sahlas" <dsahla@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scottish Accents
>>>Do you think you could give us (or me privately, if nobody else is
>>>interested) a few pointers on how to speak with Scottish accent? I've
>>always wanted to learn it :)
I love trying to emulate a Scottish accent, especially with any member
of the House of Crowngaurd. I worked in Glasgow one summer, so I thought of
myself as quite qualified to make the attempt. Everybody else would always
start laughing, however, as my accent would always morph into something that
sounded more Eastern European (or at best, like a Scot with an Eastern
European accent!).
The best way to "learn" would probably be to read books in which some of
the characters' dialogue is spelled out as it would sound. I have a
collection of short stories from Scotland ("Scottish Tales of the
Supernatural") that is pretty good (especially the oldest stories, those
published in the 1800s).
You should also check out "3 Hearts and 3 Lions" (required reading for
any FRPG enthusiast). I think a dwarf in that story speaks with a thick
brogue. I think it's a rare individual who can pick up an accent just from
listening to it (and then use it consistently), so although watching movies
is a good start, I'm not sure exactly how useful it would be.
Of course, there's a magical elixer called IRN BRU which bestows anyone
who drinks it with a Scottish accent.
Jim Sahlas
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:13:49 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
- ---
>> Favian Vern is noble, he's the President (=ruler) of Esterhold and
>decides
>> to run his Kingdom as a democracy.
>>
>Where did this come from, this new spirit of Democracy?
> That was, and remains, my problem with the concept from the begining. It
>is, IMO, completely out of character for any Alphatian to be a democratic
>republican.
I could be wrong here, but in a previous thread someone said that Alphatia
is a land ruled by mad scientists. Knowing little about canon Alphatia
(just PWA 1 and 2) I figured that seemed sound enough. Given all this
potential eccentricity among the ruling classes, I didnt really have a
problem with this.
You are making a broad, sweeping statement about Alphatian character. I
don't think its possible to make a broad, sweeping statement about any
nation - least of a large nation like Alphatia. Especially given the basic
weirdness of the whole setup. I dont really have a problem with a
democratic setup - mainly because I can think of some cool adventures to
write around it (And that is the point, isnt it?)
IRL Cromwell took a big jump in wanting a democracy - it was an extremely
radical move considering the fact that England had been a monarchy for
almost as long as the Alphatians had been in Skothar... However, he took
it.
Now, of course, as it happens, he made a right hash of it and ended up Lord
Protector (ie Dictator). Its worthy to note that that happened because of a
somewhat misplaced faith in Parliaments ability to govern the country
(niceties like a constitution hadnt yet been thought out...) - seems a vice
that Favian Vern may share (Interesting that Vern is a priest, given that
Cromwell was also religiously motivated). Point is, its probably all going
to end in an awful mess of some form or another.
Bottom line - I want to DM adventures, not a timeline (as you point out). I
want to run interesting adventures. I do not want yet another Rebel vs
Imperialist revolution (at least not an overt Braveheart type revolution),
because its been done before. A disintegrating democracy I have not done
before. That alone is reason for it to happen.
(Although I'll probably put it into Bellayne, of course :)
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:17:06 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>>Well, I'd consider his grand plot of "annhiliation of all existence" to be
>>pretty evil in my book. But that's just me :)
>
>But nothingness is not evil, it's just complete void. Most cultures see
>death as a natural part of life, the Jewish religion (and its Christian and
>Muslim offshoots) are really the only significant philosophies in which
>death is seen as evil. But, at any rate, at least Thanatos is not
sadistic,
>like Orcus or Leptar.
Apparently Thanatos goes out of his way to bring down (generally in very
painful and sadistic ways) individuals who he decides upon at random. Or he
kills someone, takes their place and leads their friends and families into
destruction.
Lord Heinrich Oesterhaus of Hattias is an avatar of Thanatos, and I always
guessed he was Mystaran Hitler. He seems to be doing a good job in the role
of Mad Dictator, anyway.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:34:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Patrick Sullivan wrote:
> death as a natural part of life, the Jewish religion (and its Christian and
> Muslim offshoots) are really the only significant philosophies in which
> death is seen as evil.
Not really, not to begin another pointless debate, but death is a natural
part of life, however, Thanatos's plots to destroy people, plances and
things, maybe not directly, but in due time, is pretty evil.
But, at any rate, at least Thanatos is not sadistic,
We can't say that. Who says Big T doesn't bite the head off of puppies
once in a while?
max IV
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:08:13 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>Lord Heinrich Oesterhaus of Hattias is an avatar of Thanatos, and I always
>guessed he was Mystaran Hitler. He seems to be doing a good job in the
role
>of Mad Dictator, anyway.
I had forgotten about that one; that's a good point. Perhaps Thanatos
really is evil, but I still think that the conflict of good v. evil is of
relatively little importance in Mystara.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:13:21 -0500
From: "E Gray" <grayhome@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Sullivan <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>>Well, I'd consider his grand plot of "annhiliation of all existence" to be
>>pretty evil in my book. But that's just me :)
>
>But nothingness is not evil, it's just complete void. Most cultures see
>death as a natural part of life, the Jewish religion (and its Christian and
>Muslim offshoots) are really the only significant philosophies in which
>death is seen as evil.
I wouldn't say that even those groups see death as "evil" though I suppose
there are a couple of fringe groups that believe otherwise. In fact death
in
the _jihad_ is a quick ticket to paradise for Islam. There's also Uriel
for
the Christian side of things. The Jains see causing death as evil, as
do in other number of other pacifistic groups..
> But, at any rate, at least Thanatos is not sadistic, like Orcus or Leptar.
I dunno, he gets a thrill out of killing things, and even hurting them,
doesn't he?
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:33:33 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
In a message dated 98-07-09 10:27:37 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
> Moreover there're other real-world examples of capitals being in neutral
> ground besides NACE and the USA, I think Australia is one and maybe also
> Brazil and Mexico, not sure though.
Brazil would be the closest real world example to NACE -- as I recall, the
Brazilians built their current capital in the middle of the Amazon jungle,
well away from the civilized parts of Brazil. I am not sure whether it is
part of a separate "federal district" though -- anyone else know something
about that?
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:33:34 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
In a message dated 98-07-10 07:13:42 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes:
> I'm about to run the Night Below campaign and I was wondering if anyone
> on this list has run it. Where did you place it on Mystara? What were the
> high/low points? Any specific things to look out for?
I would probably place it well away from the Known World -- otherwise you
have to work in the Shadow Elves somehow. Frankly, that boxed set has
a very non-Mystaran tone to me -- I probably would never run it in a Mystaran
campaign. But in a more generic game world, it does seem to have potential.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:33:38 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
In a message dated 98-07-10 16:39:46 EDT,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net (in response to a quote by
somebody else) writes:
> >Out of interest, which Immortal did you have in mind? Nyx?
> Yeah. Orc's Head in particular paints her as a compassionate figure.
On the other hand, the Milenian Scepter adventure depicts Nyx as a
rather sinister figure....
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:33:39 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
In a message dated 98-07-10 21:20:41 EDT,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes:
> I had forgotten about that one; that's a good point. Perhaps Thanatos
> really is evil, but I still think that the conflict of good v. evil is of
> relatively little importance in Mystara.
That is definitely true -- while some definite bad guys do exist, the main
conflicts do not seem to be between the "good guys" and the "bad guys"
but among the various "good guys", with the "bad guys" in "supporting"
rather than "starring" roles.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:44:26 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
At 03:40 PM 7/10/98 -0700, Patrick Sullivan wrote:
>>Well, I'd consider his grand plot of "annhiliation of all existence" to be
>>pretty evil in my book. But that's just me :)
>
>But nothingness is not evil, it's just complete void. Most cultures see
>death as a natural part of life, the Jewish religion (and its Christian and
>Muslim offshoots) are really the only significant philosophies in which
>death is seen as evil. But, at any rate, at least Thanatos is not sadistic,
>like Orcus or Leptar.
Actually death is not seen as evil. But an entitiy who seeks to bring
death/nothingness on other people is seen as evil...just speaking about
Christianity here, but I am pretty sure the Jewish people believe the same.
You see, a thing (rock, tree, death) is never evil. But "throwing a rock
at someone", "wantonly chopping down forests", and "causing death
intentionally" are always evil.
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:56:36 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
> "causing death
> intentionally" are always evil.
>
That would mean that virtually all (99.5%) adventurers were evil, since
they generally cause death intentionally on numerous occassions. . . . .
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:22:58 EDT
From: RLaRue@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Jesse asked:
>>I'm about to run the Night Below campaign and I was wondering if anyone on
this list has run it. Where did you place it on Mystara? What were the
high/low points? Any specific things to look out for?<<
And Kaviyd replyed:
>>I would probably place it well away from the Known World -- otherwise you
have to work in the Shadow Elves somehow. Frankly, that boxed set has a very
non-Mystaran tone to me -- I probably would never run it in a Mystaran
campaign. But in a more generic game world, it does seem to have potential.<<
I've actually done this. Or, am doing this now (my campaign has been side
tracked onto the planes). I placed Haranshire north of Luln and Radlebb
Forest, south of the mountains. With some modifications, it has worked rather
well. References to Drow (and other nonexsistant creatures) were redirected
or omitted as needed. Since the reputation of the Shadow Elves (not the elves
themselves, they're much more complex) IMC is negative at best, it's easy to
use that prejudice in place of the normal hatred felt for the Drow of other
worlds without loosing what makes the Shadow Elves unique. It has also helped
that my players were new to Mystara. To them at least, the sudden appearance
of a small shire in northwestern Karameikos doesn't seem odd. I think a
seasoned group of Mystara-ites would have a harder time with Night Below being
set in the Known World, but it is possible.
FYI, Night Below is supposed to be set in Greyhawk. It is possible to
identify a specific area of the Flanaess that almost perfectly matches the
area known as "Haranshire" in Night Below. Even down to such detail as the
Eels of the Eelhold, the distance between Milbourne and Thurmaster and the
presence of a swanmay Ranger to the northwest. Since it was written by Carl
Sargent after From the Ashes, this kinda makes sense.
If anyone is interested, I have a log of the first part my campaign. It ends
shortly after my group investigates the Gleaming Glade adn returns Lyntern
home. It's a rought draft, but it's interesting to read.
Rick
PS In case you're wondering, the group got far enough to assault the Kuo-Toa
king's stronghold. They got their asses kicked! Two dead, one trapped in the
Border Ethereal and two others lost on the Astral. All that and the stupid
cleric still wants to go back down and kill off the "evil from below the
earth". 8-)
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:39:14 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - NACE, Monster's Island & Ionace
>> The Council holds meeting in a dedicated building on Ionace, called the
>> Parliament.
>>
>Parliament? I can see where this is headed. . .
>
Oh, don't be so quick to come to conclusions. Glantri has a Parliament too,
and you don't see people calling it 'democratic'. :)
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
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http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website!
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:37:37 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>organized). How many blacks returned to Africa after the civil war? How
>many returned to tribal ways within the US? And how many continued on
>their lives as before, just no more being slave (but still laborers,
>generally) but just with a little more hope of going up in the social
>ladder? Well, same can be said for the Jennites.
>
Well, I think that if the blacks and Indians had an option and the strength
to throw the whites out of America, they would have done so. And Jennites
*do* have that option and probably the strength. As James already said,
there are *far* more Jennites in Esterhold than Alphatians (whereas the
blacks probably didn't outnumber the whites in America very significantly,
although I admit I am not sure on this point).
******************
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aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
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Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:42:32 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>They don't join each other's countries in perpetual union and friendship.
>Take the EC: 1) the Ruskies aint in it. 2) Yes, such "close personal
Oh, they'd love to join, but the EC won't let them in :)
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:42:37 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>Well, I think that if the blacks and Indians had an option and the strength
>to throw the whites out of America, they would have done so. And Jennites
>*do* have that option and probably the strength. As James already said,
>there are *far* more Jennites in Esterhold than Alphatians (whereas the
>blacks probably didn't outnumber the whites in America very significantly,
>although I admit I am not sure on this point).
African-Americans are probably a poor comparison, because they were removed
from their homeland and brought to America. Most likely the Native
Americans would have thrown both whites and blacks out if they had ever had
the power to do so. On the other hand, if you look at Africa in the late
fifties and the sixties, the native Blacks there through out their white
overlords from Brittain, France, Portugal, and Belgium--in some cases very
violently. But in each African nation but South Africa, the Blacks went
from virtual slaves of colonial empires to (relatively) free citizens of
their own nations. Whites were usually welcome to stay, but only if they
would willingly serve the Black governments. I think this is much closer to
the situation in Esterhold, as the Alphatians were much more like Portuguese
or Belgian overlords in Africa than the civil war era American government.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:03:07 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
>If anyone is interested, I have a log of the first part my campaign. It
ends
>shortly after my group investigates the Gleaming Glade adn returns Lyntern
>home. It's a rought draft, but it's interesting to read.
>Rick
This sounds like a good read- I'd like a copy. Thanks for the response.
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:08:59 EDT
From: Dragon3125@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
I would like a copy of your log as well if you do not mind
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:48:30 +1000
From: stan <shawn@leme.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
In a message dated 98-07-09 10:27:37 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
>
> Moreover there're other real-world examples of capitals being in neutral
> ground besides NACE and the USA, I think Australia is one and maybe also
> Brazil and Mexico, not sure though.
Yeah Canberra was chosen as being politically neutral ground whilst having
a modicum of tactical advantage. However, the place was also chosen because
of geography and the patterns of earlier European migration through the
area. It now has its own terrirtory around it, making it like a city-state of
old.
stan
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:21:05 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Scottish Accents
- ---
> Of course, there's a magical elixer called IRN BRU which bestows anyone
>who drinks it with a Scottish accent.
>
> Jim Sahlas
YES!!!
Barrs Irn Bru. Made in Scotland from girders...
Goes down well with fish and chips that stuff...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:46:44 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
>
> Oh, they'd love to join, but the EC won't let them in :)
>
Of course, which hardly refutes my point.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:49:43 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> violently. But in each African nation but South Africa, the Blacks went
> from virtual slaves of colonial empires to (relatively) free citizens of
> their own nations.
>
That's a very. . . .generous. . . .view of the post-colonial governments
that were created. But we aren't here to quibble about RL geopolitics, I
guess.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:38:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> they generally cause death intentionally on numerous occassions. . . . .
Not if they are defending themselves against a possible attacker.
Max IV - There is always a fine line.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:55:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
>
> > they generally cause death intentionally on numerous occassions. . . .
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:02:57 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
>
> > they generally cause death intentionally on numerous occassions. . . .
.
>
> Not if they are defending themselves against a possible attacker.
>
Who weeps for the orcs?
For example, if orcs raid a villiage and destroy it, are they eliminating
a base of potential attackers (most adventurers seem to issue forth from
such places), and thus they are acting with justification?
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:49:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> Who weeps for the orcs?
Oo. Good point.
The Orcs of Thar does a good job in describing the Orcish situation (One
of my favorite gaz's too!)
But almost anything is evil from one situation or another. That is true.
Ethan
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:30:40 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
At 16.53 10/07/98 CEST, Herve Musseau wrote:
>As for people who don't like the sounding of it, I wonder if they
>prevent their PCs from using a mace because it sounds weird ;)
Sure, just clubes and staves. More, PCs have no face, no shoelace, no race
... :-)
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #496
********************************
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mystara-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 497
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Why I love "Byzantium" (long)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Ionace as capital
Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D AD&D
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:58:09 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
At 10.20 10/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
> Alfheim would have joined Darokin (but something else
>happened there. . .) with Wendar becoming the "elven" nation, and Vestland
>& Soderfjord would become one nation.
> Then, with fewer (but larger/more viable) countries in the "Known World",
>the focus could move out to the wider world as a whole. But, alas, this
>will never happen.
I doubt Alfheim would have joined Darokin, either peacefully or after a war.
Those elves don't like to meddle with humans, so why should they join the
greedy Darokinians?
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:56:06 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
At 17.27 10/07/98 CEST, Herve Musseau wrote:
>
>I really like your northern Ireland analogy. Gives me ideas. Actually I
>was leaning toward an Italy (politically), but adding elements of Irish
>IRA is very good an idea.
>
Italy? You mean a big political mess? :-)
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:49:47 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
At 10.04 10/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>"few to none" IMO. Ok, there would be some quislings/colaborators. Their
>always are. But rather than repeat my arguments (ok, I guess I'm going to
>to some degree): yes, I know these "new" folk "liberated" them, but they
>were also the same folk who 1) turned a blind eye before and 2) formed part
>of the empire which insured their continued enslavement.
<snip>
But this always uppen in real life when there's a brutal change in goverment.
Look at some the Eastern European countries (e.g. Rumenia or Russia
itself), some of the now-governors were formerly part of the communist
party; nonetheless they were voted by the people. Of course here the
situation is different, because Alphatians aren't natives of Esterhold.
> Thus, at least in the eyes of many (if not the vast majority) of the
>Jennites, they would likely view these "liberators" with a jaundaced eye:
>with Metro. Alphatia gone, the hour of *complete* liberty was near.
It sounds similar to South-Africa, with European white skinned people
governing over native black skinned ones. But even there they found a
peaceful solution, though it took a long time.
> As for a "voice" in NACE government, why bother? Point is: do they really
>care what NACE policy is if they can isolate themselves from NACE and its
>problems? Why fight Thyatians (or whoever) on behalf of your former
>overlords? I'm sure Eusibius (and anyone else) will leave the Jennites
>alone if left alone by them.
I'm sure Thyatians will use Jennites as slaves if they could, as they use
to do with Hinterlanders.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:14:33 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
At 15.48 10/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
> On the other hand, Ixion isn't horrible. Ok, he's a hardass and a
>blowhard, certainly not "sweet" (except perhaps in Valerias' eyes), but he
>was right about that Rad matter.
>
Funny, I've always thought it was Rad to be right, but maybe I'm biased :-)
brizio@lunet.it aka rafiel@geocities.com ;-)
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:19:15 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> >[On a totally different topic, I just wish to say: that's no way to
> decide
> >a match. Something has to be better than penalty kick shootouts.]
> >
> Fireballs at five paces perhaps? <;-P
>
Let the game continue; every 15 min. let each side make a substitution,
eventually someone will score a goal.
Loosen up the offsides rule. Heck, in overtime: no offsides. Make it be
the defender's responsibility to defend the goal, and if they let the
strikers get behind them, then that's too bad.
Eventually, someone would score. The way it was decided in '94 bit the big
one.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:48:04 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
- ----->>I really like your northern Ireland analogy. Gives me ideas. Actually
I
>>was leaning toward an Italy (politically), but adding elements of Irish
>>IRA is very good an idea.
>>
>Italy? You mean a big political mess? :-)
*sigh* Maybe this Esterhold democracy will have proportional
representation...
ROB
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:15:03 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Why I love "Byzantium" (long)
Bob Brunciak wrote:
>
> I'm not a mind reader so I don't know why each individual likes the
> Byzantine Emipre-SO REPLY WITH YOUR THOUGHTS!
> BOB
>
I can't remember why I became so interested in history, but I do know why
I became attracted to the Midieval Roman Empire ("Byzantine").
On history in general, I guess it was because I was fortunate to have some
gifted history teachers. Or perhaps because I've always liked fantasy books
(I still have my old C.S. Lewis Narnia set), and somehow that got me hooked
in. Or perhaps it was via mythology.
At any rate early on I was interested in histories of the Crusades, and of
Rome (republic and empire), as any spirited adolecent boy is. Something
sparked me to read more about "Byzantium". It could have been Zoe
Oldenburg's book on the Crusades, or something by Steven Runciman (yah, I
read stuff like that when in middleschool: I admit it, I'm bizzare), but I
wanted to learn more about these folks who formed a constant backdrop.
I think the first book I read on the subject was Issac Azmov's "The
Forgotten Empire" (I had already read his Foundation books, and also his
books on the Roman Republic & Empire, so this was a natural). It was a good
introduction, but it was just that: an introduction. It left me looking for
more.
I read everything "Byzantine" I could get my hands on (and circa 15 years
ago, that was IMO harder than it is now. There has been a lot of attention
to the topic in more recient years, and even older books are more widely
available). My primary source would probably have to have been the
monumental Cambridge Midieval History, Vol. IV parts 1 and 2, "The
Byzantine Empire", edited by J.M. Hussey (but owing a lot, of course, to
J.B.Bury's earlier work).
Here was a story as epic as any fantasy novel. A true story, triumph and
tradgedy (mostly, inevitably, the later), with characters as lively and as
heroic (or villanous) as can be found in any novel. Triumph and tradgedy,
often both in one lifetime or reign (Justinian, Heraclius especially).
As I learned more, I grew more personally attached to this nation. For,
though "Byzantine" had become a byword for treachery and deviousness, it
became apparent that this charge was more a matter of projection (I.E. the
Crusaders & Venetians were the betrayers). Their was a lot to like in this
vanished nation.
For example, though Byzantium was almost always at war, unlike thouse of
the Roman Republic, these wars were almost universally defensive in nature
(self-protection against invaders or efforts to reclaim reciently overun
lands). In many ways it was a "modern" nation, with an efficient central
government and an army organized along professional lines (unlike the
disordered fudal states of the west). The backbone of its economy was based
on landholding pesants, relatively free, not serfs. And if the people
didn't have the freedom that most people at most times want the most (the
freedom to impose their will upon others), they had most of the other
liberties they wanted (including the right to criticize the government).
They had a system of "social welfare" (one of the highest ranking
government officials was the "Orphanotrophus", who was in charge of the
state orphanage, and their were hospices and other refuges), education was
available including a university well before the foundation of any in the
west, &tc. All the trappings (good and bad) that one would expect from a
modern state concerned with the welfare of the people (including
legislation against the expropriation of the lands of the free pesants by
"the powerful" [dynatoi], though eventually, in the 11th century, the
central government would loose this struggle. . .) Unlike in the west, here
was a true Christian nation. The REAL "Holy Roman Empire" was not in
Germany, but in Constantinople.
When Dawn of the Emperors came out, I was at first disapointed that, in my
opinion, the worst of old Rome was present, while the best of "New Rome"
was absent. But I eventually came to see this as an asset of sorts; here
was an oportunity to put right what went wrong; Thyatis could evolve into
the nation it was capable of being (just as old Rome had evolved into New
Rome), but perhaps the tragic end could be averted. The best of "Byzantium"
could live on in fantasy, in Thyatis.
I guess that's why I react like a mother bear protecting her cubs. For
though *I* fell in love with this place, it is apparent that others have
not. I suppose that by now I should have come to accept that where I see a
place with worthy potential, others see a place worthy only of scorn and
distruction.
But I don't want to see it all happen again. For example, there has been
some mention of John Julius Norwich's wonderful historical trilogy on
Byzantium. I own all three. I've owned the final volume since it came out.
That's the only one I haven't been able to bring myself to read. I can't
bring myself to go past Manzakurt too much anymore, and almost always stop
by the time I get to Manuel Comnenos (the reign of Constantine XI Dragnes
Palaeologus, though, is a truely epic and a fittingly noble end to the
history of this nation. In one Empeor, he redemed much of the final,
horrible end, filled with civil strife and ignominious infeeblement). I'm a
bad historian: reading the Decline and Fall is too hard for me. Reading
White Wolf's (wonderful) Vampire: The Dark Ages sourcebook "Constantinople
By Night" was hard enough.
It is for that reason perhaps that I took the disasters inflicted upon
Thyatis in WotI and the PWAs too personally, and take the ones inflicted
upon her by the Net Almanac (while others escape any long-tern disasters)
as personally as I do. I'm not a neutral, indifferent, observer, and I
appoligize if my vehement and vocal protestations annoyed or offended
anyone, because I know, or should know, that no one else shares my feelings
on this matter.
Anyhow, I will try to refrain from further commentary on such subjects, in
the interest of a tranquil environment.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:30:46 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
In a message dated 98-07-09 13:59:18 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
> The AD+D method is definitely better - available to all, but dangerously
> taxing to cast.
One nitpick -- AD&D also requires an intelligence of 18+ to cast a Wish spell
because all 9th level spells require that level of intelligence. However,
AD&D
has no level requirement for Wish (unlike D&D which requires the character
to be of level 33+) -- in AD&D, any Mage of sufficient level to cast 9th level
spells can learn and cast Wish -- ditto for any Specialist Wizard to whom
this spell is not barred.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:17 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ionace as capital
In a message dated 98-07-10 11:04:29 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> I'd hardly say that any of the ones I have mentioned are too small for the
> job. Firstly, since Dee Cee has been used as an example: the District
> itself is exceptionally small.
Since Floating Ar seems to have been the area cited as "too small", I should
point out one essential difference between it and Washington, D.C.: At the
time it was built, the land where Washington, D.C. is now located was an
uninhabited swamp. On the other hand, Floating Ar has been inhabited for
centuries, and every bit of usable land has been built on or otherwise used.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:16 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women
In a message dated 98-07-10 11:03:27 EDT, ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes:
> I think that emancipation came about with magic use. It`s very hard to
> oppress women who can toast you with fireballs, or curse you with the
> power of their patron. <;-P
It must be the fireballs that do it -- in many real world cultures women
have been said to have the power to curse or lay geases on men, and
such beliefs had no beneficial effect in terms of how there were treated.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:19 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
I just had a thought in regard to Vanya's cursing of Thincol:
At the time she did it, she was feeling deeply hurt by his "betrayal" of her
and, being an Immortal, she almost certainly put several PPs into that curse.
Such a combination of power and passion would be very difficult for even an
Immortal to overcome -- certainly a simple "Heal" spell would not do the
trick.
Still, Vanya is not the most powerful of Immortals, so there must have
been some Immortals who would have wanted to interfere anyway. So
why didn't they? My guess is that Vanya "paid them off" in various ways,
with the result that she lost a gread deal of her power but did not have to
face any sort of public humiliation among mortals. Perhaps that loss of
spells by the Heldannic Knights was not a punishment from her per se,
but the price demanded by one of her more stubborn foes?
So -- would that theory explain why no other Immortal interfered with Vanya's
curse? Or are there Immortals opposed to Vanya who could not be "bought
off" in this case?
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:21 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
One point to keep in mind in regard to the relations between the Thothians
and the Alphatians: according to DotE, the Thothians are the only non-
Alphatian people that the Alphatians regard as equals. So the answer to
the question of why the Thothians would want to be part of the NACE would
be -- why would they want to leave? Of course, it certainly would not be
out of the question for them to try to shift the balance of power in their own
favor, given that a significant number of Alphatians suddenly vanished from
the world a few years ago....
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:08 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-10 09:58:30 EDT, herve@hotmail.com writes:
> However, Alphatia never threatened any of those countries, only Thyatis,
> Glantri and the HK. In fact, Alphatia even stroke a deal with Karameikos
> to be allowed through their territory.
That is true only if you limit yourself to "recent" history. Ylaruam was once
colonized by Alphatia as well as Thyatis, and I thought I read somewhere
of some sort of rivalry or skirmishes between Alphatia and Minrothad and
between Alphatia and the nations of the Northern Reaches.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:14 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
In a message dated 98-07-10 11:01:53 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
> But meanwhile Thincol would have found a way to protect himself from such a
> Wish.
Then again, wishing harm to another is just the sort of thing that increases
the chance of a Wish spell going wrong. Most spells that would cause a
foe to be teleported involuntarily would allow a saving throw to negate the
effect. In the case of a Wish it might be a good idea to allow Thincol a
saving throw to have the spell go just slightly awry -- awry enough that he
is not a helpless prisoner of the Alphatians, at least.
On the other hand, a Wish to teleport oneself and one's companions into
Thincol's presence, regardless of where he is, should work well as long as
he is not concealed or warded by a Wish, Immortal magic, or something
else of equivalent power. In that case, you are just combining two lower
level effects -- a divination type spell to locate Thincol and then a
teleportation
spell to move a willing party to that location. That sort of Wish should
work and give the attacking party a decent chance to assassinate Thincol
- -- probably a far better chance than the Wish to teleport Thincol to an
Alphatian dungeon should give.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:31:03 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - D&D AD&D
In a message dated 98-07-10 07:54:06 EDT,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes:
> Mark of Amber was probably the best of the
> CD products, but I don't know if it would be too useful if you already own
> X2.
I thought that it was -- it added a great deal of background material that is
at best implied in X2 and other sources.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:06:37 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
- ----
>One nitpick -- AD&D also requires an intelligence of 18+ to cast a Wish
spell
>because all 9th level spells require that level of intelligence. However,
>AD&D
>has no level requirement for Wish (unlike D&D which requires the character
>to be of level 33+) -- in AD&D, any Mage of sufficient level to cast 9th
level
>spells can learn and cast Wish -- ditto for any Specialist Wizard to whom
>this spell is not barred.
Well, yeah. But Level 18 is a coveted level in AD+D, as much as as level 33
in D+D.
Besides, it doesnt matter to those 1000 36th level mages now!
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:38:52 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
>
> One nitpick -- AD&D also requires an intelligence of 18+ to cast a Wish
spell
> because all 9th level spells require that level of intelligence.
>
One counter nitpick: TSR breaks this rule all the time for their NPCs (I.E.
Tenser, with an Int of 17, is able to cast 9th level spells).
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:22:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Ylari women
On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote:
> have been said to have the power to curse or lay geases on men, and
> such beliefs had no beneficial effect in terms of how there were treated.
True, but they never did lay a geas on the people persecuting them :)
If someone tried to put one of my female characters down, they'd be
slagged immediately.
Max IV
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:03:50 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-11 03:15:35 EDT, solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes:
> Well, I think that if the blacks and Indians had an option and the strength
> to throw the whites out of America, they would have done so. And Jennites
> *do* have that option and probably the strength. As James already said,
> there are *far* more Jennites in Esterhold than Alphatians (whereas the
> blacks probably didn't outnumber the whites in America very significantly,
> although I admit I am not sure on this point).
Actually the blacks in America are a relatively small minority, even by the
"one drop" definition that was once in vogue. Esterhold would be a parallel
to the United States only if the Jennites suffered a massive drop in
population
while the Alphatians brought in hordes of colonists and bred like rabbits to
the point that they became the majority there.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:04:13 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
In a message dated 98-07-11 14:41:38 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
> Funny, I've always thought it was Rad to be right, but maybe I'm biased :-)
True, the destruction of Alphatia was caused by misuse of the power of the
Radiance, but would it have happened if Rad and Ixion were not fighting over
it? After all, Rad did not want to start a war -- he could be held
responsible
for the draining of magic from the world that his continued use of the
Radiance
would have caused, but he is only partially responsible for the war itself.
And
after he saw the potential effects of his doomsday weapon he did try to
negotiate peace.
In a sense, both Rad and Ixion were wrong. Ixion was wrong in embroiling
the world in a massive war to preserve the stability of the Immortal hierarchy
as well as the presence of magic on Mystara -- clearly a case where the
short term suffering outweighed the long term benefits. On the other hand,
Rad was wrong in creating his doomsday weapon -- as an Immortal surely
he must have had some idea of what it could ultimately do.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:04:11 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
In a message dated 98-07-11 13:22:06 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> Who weeps for the orcs?
> For example, if orcs raid a villiage and destroy it, are they eliminating
> a base of potential attackers (most adventurers seem to issue forth from
> such places), and thus they are acting with justification?
I think this all goes back to the statement that "intentionally causing the
death of another is alway evil, according to Christian teachings" (I am
paraphrasing here, of course). It would be more to the point to say that
"intentionally causing the death of another without a very good reason is
always evil". Unless they are total pacificsts, most religious groups have
some concept of "just war" that would permit most of the killings that
are committed by adventurers.
As for orcs -- a lot depends on whether they are the creation of evil powers,
the reincarnation of evil beings, or intelligent creatures forced by
circumstances
into a very hard existence. A lot also depends on whether the local humans
and demi-humans have made any attempts to negotiate with them, and what
the results of those negotiations were. In most places the humans and demi-
humans reach the conclusion that the orcs cannot be reasoned with and thus
should be exterminated if possible -- but there are a few enlightened places
where orcs live with humans and demi-humans in peace.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:09:17 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
At 10:56 PM 7/10/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>
>> "causing death
>> intentionally" are always evil.
>>
>That would mean that virtually all (99.5%) adventurers were evil, since
>they generally cause death intentionally on numerous occassions. . . . .
*grimacing*
I believe you know what I mean...
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:10:43 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
>
> *grimacing*
>
> I believe you know what I mean...
>
I do? I may have misunderstood the statement: "Intentionally causing death
is always evil", but it seemed clear to me.
If I did misunderstand, then of course I appologize. 8-)
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:24:19 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>> To begin with, Favian Vern is not a crackpot wizard, but a crackpot
>> priest.
>>
>I didn't say he was a Wizad, I went with what was given. IMO, it isn't
>important if he's a Wizard, a Priest, a Mystic, or a "Hopeless
>Character"-classed person {from on old Dragon mag.}
I know you didn't say it; Rob did. I was just correcting things for
everyone (including myself, as I didn't remember his immortal patron).
>> He believes in the ideals of freedom, equality among men (and
>> other races), and democracy (what a fool;).
>>
>deus ex machina
Well, James, eveything is deus ex machina. Or stop RPGs. When you have a
powerful wizards contact the PCs and set them on a mission, it's a deus
ex machina. When an Immortal intervenes to save the day, t's a deus ex
machina. And the biggest deus ex machina of all is your bunch of
adventurers that come from nowhere, decide to meddle in affairs of
others, and save the world. That's what RPGs are all about. And that's
true in RW too. You seem to imply that everything that is not logical
shouldn't happen, yet you admit that IYC the PCs have great power over
the detiny of the world. Let's take a RW example again (we do that a
lot, don't we?): the peace process in Israel. Going by your logic, there
should never have been a peace process in the first place, the Jews and
the Palestinians (along with other Arabs) should have stayed enemies
forever and fight it to the bitter end. So that's already your first
deus ex machina. Thee were individuals who, like Favian Vern in
Esterhold, were in facor of peace between the peoples, and they were
heard since the peace process started. And after it's started, you
sometimes have events that may stop it, because some other individuals
don't want the peace, and you have events like the assassination of
Rabin. That's a great deus ex machina (hmm, great not in that sense, you
see what I mean). Let's take the fall of the Berlin Wall. That's a deus
ex machina. Who would have predicted it?
So my point is, there are always deus ex machina. You may like them or
not. You may have your own. TSR for WotI and the PWas has theirs, and we
at the net almanac have ours. In fact, each individual DM has his own,
and that should be that way. That's RPG. If you don't like the premises
that were used in WotI and after, if you think your deus ex machina are
better in the tone of your campaign, and from there the world starts to
differ radically from the canon or net canon (sorry for using these
terms), that is just fine. In fact, some writers of the almanac have a
campaign very different from the almanacs. And, if you develop alternate
timelines based on your own premises, I (and probably others on the mml)
would be glad to read about it, as it can give us ideas for our own
campaigns, or the almanac. In fact, if you write that alternate
timeline, I may use it IMC to show my PCs an alternate Mystara in which
they would not have intervened for example (one of my PCs has access to
some chronomancy).
PS: I'd let the thread die on the MML as you do, James, though I may
like everyone answer to some posts if that's interesting (especially if
that may give me good ideas for the next almanac :)
>> if not all of them approve of his ideas: He helped Haldemar subdue
>> Zandor, has become friend with Broderick and Gratia and Tristilla,
and
>> even before he was a respected sage and cleric of Razud. <sniped>
>>
>All fine, but IMO beside the point, since I still maintain that
"Democratic
>Reform" out of the blue is not in character for Alphatia, and nothing
yet
>has convinced me otherwise.
>
>> Yes and no. Actually some of them were forced to, namely the former
>> inhabitants of Gaity, that were parked by Thyatians in Gaity Park
until
>> Tristilla obtained a chart to ship them to Esterhold.
>>
>Why they took the long journey to perilous Esterhold (2,000 miles to
Cape
>Hook) and not the short journey to tranquil Bellissaria (200 miles to
>Dubbo) is beyond me. IIRC, that happened in the canon (PWA II or III,
can't
>remember right now), but it was still unrealistic.
> Deus ex machina.
Yep, that was in the PWAs.
The reason they went to Esterhold and not Bellissaria may be that
Thyatis accepted to evacuate them only if they didn't go to Zandor's
Empire, of which Bellissaria was part at the time (I think) but not
Esterhold. Tristillia was in search of an Alphatian land that wasn't
part of Zandor's empire. That left her with Norwold (under HK attack at
the time), Qeodhar, Esterhold, and that's about it.
>> Other possible settlers are those troops left stranded on the OW when
>> Alphatia sank. They went a bit anywhere, but probably some of them
were
>> attracted to Esterhold. Why? Because it was one of the last frontier
>> land, with the Jennites east.
>>
>Bellissaria has 1 person per 4 square miles, IMO it's as much a
frontier as
>anywhere else (anything less than 10 persons per squ. mile is still
>sparsely settled, IMO).
Oh, I meant frontier land as in where that was a need for mercs. There's
no need for them in "tranquil Bellissaria", as you always point out.
>> They came here to make war (remember some,
>> but not all, of these troops were professional soldiers), but instead
>> discovered what life was like here, and maybe sided with the rebels
(or
>> more likely/more exactly, with Broderick). Only a guess, though.
>>
>IMO, the warriors would settle on IoD, where they could repell their
old
>nemisis, rather than seek transport 2,000 miles to Esterhold.
Some (well, most actually IMO) would, yes. That doesn't prevent some of
them to settle in Esterhold, does it? The stranded Alphatians went a bit
everywhere. Mostly IoD and Bellissaria. But also in other alphatian
colonies (like Norwold, or Esterhold). And also some stayed in the OW
(esp. Karameikos, but not only).
______________________________________________________
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #497
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mystara-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 498
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - My take on Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
[MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:26:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
> should be exterminated if possible -- but there are a few enlightened
places
> where orcs live with humans and demi-humans in peace.
>
Hule, for example.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:59:34 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< Peaceful Democracy? The Alphatian Empire? That goes against their entire
caste-based social order, I hope you realize
(Mage--Spellcaster---Wog---Slave). >>
Two questions: What's a "wog"? I've seen it in many mails these
days, but my dictionary doesn't tell me the meaning.
Second, do you place Mages above other spellcasters?
I'm sure every Alphatian cleric would go to the Constitutional Court
for that.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:59:44 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - My take on Karameikos
<< Look at our real world. A lot of things are happening in the USA, but
does that make the USA popular with everybody?? Also most people sem to
view the USA as 'good', but within it's boundaries are a lot of things
going on that are definately not 'good acts'. But does this make Clinton
evil? I don't think so... >>
Good point! This remembers me to the invasion on Haiti.
The official reason was to reestablish the public order
and to improve the educational situation of the people.
In a comment would stated at that time that the U.S. troops
had better gone into the Bronx then...
Under this aspect the relationship between von Hendricks
and Karameikos are not too unusual.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:59:41 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< IMC, there isn't much of a council as such, outside Bellissaria & Aquas.
The PWAs implied that Thothia was about to begin a campaign of imperialism
on it's own behalf (of course, the PWAs also had Thothia "meekly
submitting" to the New Alphatian Order eventually). IMO, I always saw this
as more intriguing in the long run anyhow. Three "power blocks" rather than
two. >>
As I see it the Thothians fought when the time to fight had come
but they didn't like it. Besides, after the short war Thothia was
exhausted. We should not forget, that Thothia was a part of the
Alphatian Empire ans will have lost some trrops in the war. They
had enough reserves to beat Thyatis, but not enough to withstand
the Empire on the long run.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:59:42 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Preserving Alphatia's Way of Life.
<< Every few years the Alphatians would round up those of their young people
who showed talent but who could not be trained in the Hollow World, put
them on a skyship, and take them to the outer world for a year or two.
Once there they could train to become 1st level Priests or Wizards. At
that point they could return to the Hollow World and advance normally in
their classes. >>
This idea is not new, I even had posted it on the list in February:
<<
1. "The School Bus is coming": A special ship like the Princess Ark
transports magical and clerical students to the OW, powered by
Gnome craft or artifacts.
2. "Next floor primary school, please": The pit is reopened and the
students can easily travel to the OW.
3. "Please step simply through the mirror": An artifact leads to a
small pocket plane. This artifact could be similar to "Skarda's
Mirror".
New schools would have to be built, where spellcasting beginners
can be teached. In the Outer World Bellissaria would be an
appropiate place to construct these. (As you see, I do very much
to give poor Bellissaria a good future.) >>
You see there are many possibilities...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:59:45 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
<< True, but Germany and Italy are very different from NACE. Not only they
lack all those high-level mages, but they aren't a confederation of
different states like the USA. Well, Germany is a federation, but it's very
different from the USA. >>
Hm, Fabrizio, I may confuse something, but wasn't it the "Union"
who has won the American civil war against the "Confederation"?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:59:46 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< > Esterhold has some of the worst Alphatians in existance forming the bulk
>of the Alphatian population, and the bulk of the total population consists
>of people who were savagely and ruthlessly enslaved. Again: If you
>(completely unrealistically) have them give the vote to everyone, do you
>realistically think that the 70-80% of the former slaves would vote to keep
>their former overseers in power, and remain part of the same Empire that
>kept it's booted heel on their necks for centuries? >>
An idea about Esterhold: Many surviving Alphatians from the
sunken continent decided to settle in Esterhold, but they are
no democrats, of course. They aren't even republicans.
An election in Esterhold would be a difficult matter, as
Cmdr. Broderick has said in the interview, and of course the
Jennite slaves would not have a vote. OTOH many of them
have fought together with the "Good New Alphatians" against
the "Evil Old Alphatians", and those now freed might wish to
become an active part of the republic. The free Jennite might
even despise them for being so weak to be enslaved.
Final point: In the beginning the USA were a society
of slave-holders, and the wise and idealistic founders
failed to see this fault. Please don't flame me for that,
one or another might be an exception...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:58:46 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> PS: I'd let the thread die on the MML as you do, James, though I may
>
Probably for the best. The idea that NACE should suffer no territorial
losses and every deus ex machina event that does occur (and I admit most
campaign set ups are of that variety) must result in a benificial outcome
(in the medium-short run) for them while that is not the case for others
who are less favored is just embittering me, which is not productive and is
surely annoying everyone else.
As I said in my "Byzantium" post, I'm not an unbiased observer who is
indifferent to the outcome, as the Net Almanac team is, so perhaps I take
things too personally, not being properly distanced from the material.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:05:29 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
>> should be exterminated if possible -- but there are a few enlightened
>places
>> where orcs live with humans and demi-humans in peace.
>>
>Hule, for example.
And Denagoth ;)
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:10:19 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>In a sense, both Rad and Ixion were wrong. Ixion was wrong in embroiling
>the world in a massive war to preserve the stability of the Immortal
hierarchy
>as well as the presence of magic on Mystara -- clearly a case where the
>short term suffering outweighed the long term benefits. On the other hand,
>Rad was wrong in creating his doomsday weapon -- as an Immortal surely
>he must have had some idea of what it could ultimately do.
Exactly--both sides had valid points. Either one could be seen as right
depending on your point of view, but both caused a great deal of evil.
This, I believe, is part of what makes Mystara unique. Unlike all the other
AD&D settings where the bad guys are almost always evil monsters that stomp
on flowers and wear black and the good guys are perfectly good heroes (a
very Zoroastrian vision of the world), Mystaran conflicts are usually
between two sides which both, upon impartial examination, have valid points.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:07:36 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Two questions: What's a "wog"? I've seen it in many mails these
> days, but my dictionary doesn't tell me the meaning.
> Second, do you place Mages above other spellcasters?
> I'm sure every Alphatian cleric would go to the Constitutional Court
> for that.
>
"Wog" is a very naughty, slanderous term for servile classes (kind of like
"coolie", which would also apply): second or third class subjects (not
citizens, not in Alphatia). [c.f. "Hivers and Ithkur" GDW material].
Mages are "superior" based on general bias: all spellcasters may be
"equal" under the law in Alphatia, but clearly Wizards/Magic-Users (the
"1,000 Wizards" of the council) are "more equal than others" socially, de
facto, if not legally, de jure.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:15:04 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> violently. But in each African nation but South Africa, the Blacks went
>> from virtual slaves of colonial empires to (relatively) free citizens of
>> their own nations.
>>
>That's a very. . . .generous. . . .view of the post-colonial governments
>that were created. But we aren't here to quibble about RL geopolitics, I
>guess.
Hence the (relatively). Still, even though the post-colonial governments
proved inadequate in most cases, the populous rebelled against the
colonialists not because of the reality of their new governments, but
because of the promise.
But at any rate, I don't think the Jennites could instantly form a utopian
society if they throw the Alphatians out. More likely they would see a
series of military dictators and frequent coups, probably supported by
Thyatis, Alphatia, and maybe even Karameikos or other nations as they vie
for control of nations that provide easy access to the Hollow World.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:43:03 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
In a message dated 98-07-11 16:25:41 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> One counter nitpick: TSR breaks this rule all the time for their NPCs (I.E.
> Tenser, with an Int of 17, is able to cast 9th level spells).
Tenser probably pre-dates that rule -- as I recall, he goes back to the very
beginning of D&D. Still, they should have increased his intelligence to 18
in all products published after that rule was created. Sloppy....
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:39:07 -0600
From: "Jim Zubkavich" <jimz@aurenya.dyn.ml.org>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDACF2.CDD20C40
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, I've just joined up with the Mystara Mailing List and I was hoping =
to start off with some (maybe often asked) questions.
I'm starting a new campaign next week in Mystara. It's a Classic D&D =
game with the old modules (B2, The Keep on the Borderlands to start) and =
I've put up the two giagantic Known World Trail Maps to help myself =
visualize this whole thing. Of course, the characters are starting in =
the village of Threshold in Karameikos, just like the classic Expert =
recommends. I'm using the GAZ1 to flesh out Karameikos and the campaign =
is starting in AC 999 so that I can include a crazy New Year's party in =
the game.
So, I want to slowly bring in Karameikos political intrigue to the game =
as well as keep the pace up with good old fashioned dungeon exploring.
- - With a 1st level game, how do you introduce some of these elements of =
Mystara without overwhelming the players (almost half our group has =
barely ever played D&D before while the other half is quite =
experienced)?
- - How do I keep the group cohesive? I mean, I don't want the thief =
dashing off in every town and have to run seperate adventures just for =
him as he tries to pick pocket peasents. I'm worried that I spent too =
much time selling this game to my players based on the fact that there's =
INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. If they take it too literally, I =
figure someone will just split from the group.
I'd appreciate any advice you guys could offer. Although I've played =
tons of RPGs over the years, I've rarely been able to plan an extended =
campaign and I want this one to shine. Most of my games would be =
one-nighters to pass the time or tournament play.
Thanks
Jim Zubkavich=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDACF2.CDD20C40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#a6caf0>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Well, I've just joined up with the =
Mystara=20
Mailing List and I was hoping to start off with some (maybe often asked) =
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm starting a new campaign next =
week in=20
Mystara. It's a Classic D&D game with the old modules (B2, The Keep =
on the=20
Borderlands to start) and I've put up the two giagantic Known World =
Trail Maps=20
to help myself visualize this whole thing. Of course, the characters are =
starting in the village of Threshold in Karameikos, just like the =
classic Expert=20
recommends. I'm using the GAZ1 to flesh out Karameikos and the campaign =
is=20
starting in AC 999 so that I can include a crazy New Year's party in the =
game.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>So, I want to slowly bring in =
Karameikos=20
political intrigue to the game as well as keep the pace up with good old =
fashioned dungeon exploring.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>- With a 1st level game, how =
do you=20
introduce some of these elements of Mystara without overwhelming the =
players=20
(almost half our group has barely ever played D&D before while the =
other=20
half is quite experienced)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>- How do I keep the group cohesive? =
I mean, I=20
don't want the thief dashing off in every town and have to run seperate=20
adventures just for him as he tries to pick pocket peasents. I'm worried =
that I=20
spent too much time selling this game to my players based on the fact =
that=20
there's INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. If they take it too =
literally, I=20
figure someone will just split from the group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'd appreciate any advice you guys =
could offer.=20
Although I've played tons of RPGs over the years, I've rarely been able =
to plan=20
an extended campaign and I want this one to shine. Most of my games =
would be=20
one-nighters to pass the time or tournament play.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jim =
Zubkavich </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDACF2.CDD20C40--
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:03:21 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDAD30.DCE3E440
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
- -
=20
Well, I've just joined up with the Mystara Mailing List and I was =
hoping to start off with some (maybe often asked) questions.
=20
=20
Hi! Nice blue email too...
=20
=20
So, I want to slowly bring in Karameikos political intrigue to the =
game as well as keep the pace up with good old fashioned dungeon =
exploring.
=20
- With a 1st level game, how do you introduce some of these =
elements of Mystara without overwhelming the players (almost half our =
group has barely ever played D&D before while the other half is quite =
experienced)?
=20
Umm. When I ran my low level Karameikos bash I stressed the =
Thyatian/Traladaran divide (IMO that is really what Karameikos is all =
about). I ran lots of simple dungeon bashes, with a bit of an =
archaeological feel to it (before too long they all knew that bronze =
swords could well be magical :). Exploring ancient barrows, that sort =
of thing. I even had one Thyatian knight plotting to knock off =
Patriarch Sherlane in one adventure (for his liberal views towards the =
Traladarans).=20
=20
=20
- How do I keep the group cohesive? I mean, I don't want the thief =
dashing off in every town and have to run seperate adventures just for =
him as he tries to pick pocket peasents. I'm worried that I spent too =
much time selling this game to my players based on the fact that there's =
INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. If they take it too literally, I =
figure someone will just split from the group.
=20
I usually give the party thief affiliation to a Guild. The =
Guilds are cool, and give a thief some direction. And I usually have =
the Guild give the thief secret missions to do while on the adventure. =
For example, in one adventure the party had to rescue some guys who had =
been captured by Iron Ring slavers. The thief (a Veiled Society member) =
has been ordered to capture as many slavers as possible and deliver them =
to the Veiled Society, because the Iron Ring was moving in on Society =
business and needed a warning...
=20
I'd appreciate any advice you guys could offer. Although I've played =
tons of RPGs over the years, I've rarely been able to plan an extended =
campaign and I want this one to shine. Most of my games would be =
one-nighters to pass the time or tournament play.
=20
=20
I think with long campaigns its a good idea to know where its going, =
and give it an overall storyline, rather than make it a mere string =
unrelated adventures. My campaign is all about Arik - hes loose, =
causing hassle all over the planet (very subtly though, the other =
Immortals dont know) and trying to bring about the End of the World. =
(Its going to be high level by the time its finished...)
=20
Well, anyway, enough of my ranting
=20
Cheerz
=20
ROB
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#a6caf0>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-</B><BR> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Well, I've just joined up with =
the Mystara=20
Mailing List and I was hoping to start off with some (maybe often =
asked)=20
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi! Nice blue email=20
too...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>So, I want to slowly bring in =
Karameikos=20
political intrigue to the game as well as keep the pace up with good =
old=20
fashioned dungeon exploring.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>- With a 1st level game, =
how do you=20
introduce some of these elements of Mystara without overwhelming the =
players=20
(almost half our group has barely ever played D&D before while =
the other=20
half is quite experienced)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Umm. When I ran my low =
level=20
Karameikos bash I stressed the Thyatian/Traladaran divide (IMO that =
is=20
really what Karameikos is all about). I ran lots of simple =
dungeon=20
bashes, with a bit of an archaeological feel to it (before too long =
they all=20
knew that bronze swords could well be magical :). Exploring =
ancient=20
barrows, that sort of thing. I even had one Thyatian knight =
plotting=20
to knock off Patriarch Sherlane in one adventure (for his liberal =
views=20
towards the Traladarans). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =
</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>- How do I keep the group =
cohesive? I mean,=20
I don't want the thief dashing off in every town and have to run =
seperate=20
adventures just for him as he tries to pick pocket peasents. I'm =
worried=20
that I spent too much time selling this game to my players based on =
the fact=20
that there's INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. If they take it =
too=20
literally, I figure someone will just split from the =
group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> I usually =
give the party=20
thief affiliation to a Guild. The Guilds are cool, and give a =
thief=20
some direction. And I usually have the Guild give the thief =
secret=20
missions to do while on the adventure. For example, in one =
adventure=20
the party had to rescue some guys who had been captured by Iron Ring =
slavers. The thief (a Veiled Society member) has been ordered =
to=20
capture as many slavers as possible and deliver them to the Veiled =
Society,=20
because the Iron Ring was moving in on Society business and needed a =
warning...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'd appreciate any advice you =
guys could=20
offer. Although I've played tons of RPGs over the years, I've rarely =
been=20
able to plan an extended campaign and I want this one to shine. Most =
of my=20
games would be one-nighters to pass the time or tournament=20
play.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think with long campaigns its =
a good idea=20
to know where its going, and give it an overall storyline, rather =
than make=20
it a mere string unrelated adventures. My campaign is all =
about Arik -=20
hes loose, causing hassle all over the planet (very subtly though, =
the other=20
Immortals dont know) and trying to bring about the End of the =
World. =20
(Its going to be high level by the time its =
finished...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Well, anyway, enough of my=20
ranting</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Cheerz</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>ROB</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDAD30.DCE3E440--
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:06:34 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
> I'm starting a new campaign next week in Mystara. It's a Classic D&D
> game with the old modules (B2, The Keep on the Borderlands to start)
>
IMO, a lovely place to start. Perhaps I'm biased because that's where I
started. 8-)
> So, I want to slowly bring in Karameikos political intrigue to the game
as
> well as keep the pace up with good old fashioned dungeon exploring.
>
>From the below, slow sounds wise. One way could be to have the PCs get to
know the Keep's Castellian, and he could become a way of introducing them
to political adventures/intrigue (becoming their patron of sorts).
> How do I keep the group cohesive?
Most players with low level characters will want to stay close to each
other (at least that is my experience), because it's too easy to get in
over your head if you're "lone wolf"ing it. I.E. that Thief wouldn't have
the Cleric nearby if he ran off on his own, which might be dangerous.
Hopefully, the more experienced players know the perils of doing stuff like
that, so they'll naturally want to keep the party together. Barring that,
often it's the *inexperienced* folks who will argue against splitting up,
because they are unsure of themselves.
So, hopefully, the players themselves will do that job for you. 8-)
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:28:27 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BDACF1.50647AA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=20
>Well, I've just joined up with the Mystara Mailing List and I was =
hoping to=20
>start off with some (maybe often asked) questions.
Ooh! I get to be the first to welcome you (unless someone else is =
quicker). Welcome to the list!
>- With a 1st level game, how do you introduce some of these =
elements of Mystara without >overwhelming the players (almost half our =
group has barely ever played D&D before while the >other half is quite =
experienced)?
Personally, my recommendation is to start by letting them meet one =
or two NPCs who are connected to higher levels of politics. That old =
Basic Set adventure is actually pretty good for this, since it =
introduces Aleena, the niece of the baron, and Bargle--an easy link to =
adventures against the Black Eagle. Perhaps one of the royal family is =
currently at Castellan Keep--that could be promising. Also, use the =
Churches of Karameikos and Traladara as setting-off points for politics.
=20
>- How do I keep the group cohesive? I mean, I don't want the thief =
dashing off in every town >and have to run seperate adventures just for =
him as he tries to pick pocket peasents. I'm >worried that I spent too =
much time selling this game to my players based on the fact that =
>there's INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. If they take it too =
literally, I figure someone will >just split from the group.
Initially, the best idea is probably to get them as far away from =
civilization as possible as quickly as possible. If their up at =
castellan Keep, you can remind the thief that justice is swift here at =
the fort, execution for almost any crime.
I've found that it also helps if the players are in a rush whenever =
they pass through a civilized area.
- ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BDACF1.50647AA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#a6caf0>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>>Well, I've just joined up =
with the=20
Mystara Mailing List and I was hoping to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>>start off with some =
</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>(maybe often asked) questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> <FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>Ooh! I get to be the first to welcome you (unless =
someone else=20
is quicker). Welcome to the list!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>>- With a 1st level =
game, how do=20
you introduce some of these elements of Mystara without =
>overwhelming the=20
players (almost half our group has barely ever played D&D before =
while=20
the >other half is quite experienced)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Personally, my recommendation is =
to start by=20
letting them meet one or two NPCs who are connected to higher levels =
of=20
politics. That old Basic Set adventure is actually pretty good =
for=20
this, since it introduces Aleena, the niece of the baron, and =
Bargle--an=20
easy link to adventures against the Black Eagle. Perhaps one =
of the=20
royal family is currently at Castellan Keep--that could be =
promising. =20
Also, use the Churches of Karameikos and Traladara as setting-off =
points for=20
politics.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>>- How do I keep the group =
cohesive? I=20
mean, I don't want the thief dashing off in every town >and have =
to run=20
seperate adventures just for him as he tries to pick pocket =
peasents. I'm=20
>worried that I spent too much time selling this game to my =
players based=20
on the fact that >there's INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. =
If they=20
take it too literally, I figure someone will >just split from the =
group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Initially, the best idea is =
probably to get=20
them as far away from civilization as possible as quickly as =
possible. =20
If their up at castellan Keep, you can remind the thief that justice =
is=20
swift here at the fort, execution for almost any crime.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I've found that it also helps if the players are =
in a rush=20
whenever they pass through a civilized=20
area.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #498
********************************
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mystara-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 499
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[MYSTARA] - Deus ex Machina (was Alphatian Democracy Movements.)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
Re: [MYSTARA] - Deus ex Machina (was Alphatian Democracy Movements.)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
[MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Re: [MYSTARA] - Deus ex Machina (long)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
[MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:33:52 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Deus ex Machina (was Alphatian Democracy Movements.)
In a message dated 98-07-11 17:50:02 EDT, herve@hotmail.com writes:
> So my point is, there are always deus ex machina. You may like them or
> not. You may have your own. TSR for WotI and the PWas has theirs, and we
> at the net almanac have ours. In fact, each individual DM has his own,
> and that should be that way. That's RPG.
Actually that term has a much more limited meaning than your post suggests.
It originates with certain ancient Greek plays, notably those of Euripides, in
which a complicated situation was resolved at the end by the intervention of
a god or other powerful being, who was generally lowered to the stage by a
hand operated crane (thus "god from the machine"). Some Mystaran
adventures are also resolved in a similar way (notably "Wrath of the
Immortals" and to a lesser extent "Mark of Amber"), but many others
are not. If, for example, the player characters are able to resolve a
situation without involving anyone more powerful than themselves, then
there is no "deus ex machina" involved. And for a major NPC to come
up with a radical new idea is not a "deus ex machina" either, unless of
course the idea is immediately implemented without difficulty or opposition
of any kind.
Among literary critics (including reviewers of gaming modules), the term
"deus ex machina" is somewhat pejorative. The general consensus is
that a "deus ex machina" should be avoided if at all possible -- otherwise
the reader or player will feel cheated in that the actions of the protagonists
had little effect on the final outcome. The later parts of "Wrath of the
Immortals", as an adventure for player characters, are almost completely
ruined by this factor -- after all, what can the player characters really
accomplish? On the other hand, the player characters in "Mark of Amber"
make much more of a difference, and the return of Prince Etienne at the
end is not an unexpected intervention but a goal towards which they have
been working for the entire adventure. Forget the whole matter of whether
Etienne is mortal or Immortal -- the most apparent result of the adventure
to the player characters is that Etienne's personality should be greatly
influenced by the actions of the players in that adventure. And since
the player characters should have won his friendship, they should have
plenty of opportunity to see what they have "created".
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:34:00 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-11 18:19:50 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes:
> Final point: In the beginning the USA were a society
> of slave-holders, and the wise and idealistic founders
> failed to see this fault. Please don't flame me for that,
> one or another might be an exception...
Actually many of the founders were aware of this discrepancy --
but they were more interested in the expediency of holding the
country together than in spreading human rights to slaves, and
some of the others were just plain hypocritical in their views.
But there is no question that slavery was controversial from the
beginning of US history -- of course, the controversy had little
effect until the Civil War.
In fact, the slaveholding nations of Mystara are actually in a
similar situation to the USA of the early 19th century, as they
claim to have "free" societies and yet hold slaves -- and in
each case there exist other nations that have successfully
abolished slavery even if they are less "free" in other ways.
Given how each of the slaveholding nations has been seriously
weakened in recent years, they should be far more vulnerable
than the USA was to outside pressure to abolish slavery.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:34:03 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-11 18:21:44 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes:
> Two questions: What's a "wog"? I've seen it in many mails these
> days, but my dictionary doesn't tell me the meaning.
I think it is a term that the British invented for the natives of their
colonies. It implied racial inferiority and thus is a good parallel
to the attitudes of Alphatians as given in DotE. I recall once
reading a saying that expressed this attitude in its most extreme
form: "Wogs begin at Calais." Calais, for those of you who are
not up on European geography, is the city in France that is closest
to England.
> Second, do you place Mages above other spellcasters?
> I'm sure every Alphatian cleric would go to the Constitutional Court
> for that.
According to DotE, all spellcasters are equal. However, there is a
peculiarity of the D&D rules that lowers the status of Clerics a bit --
in those rules, a Cleric has no spells until he reaches 2d level.
Thus, while a Mage is a member of the aristocracy as soon as he
completes his training, a Cleric must gain a full level of experience
before he gains aristocratic status. But once a Cleric has the abilty
to cast any spells whatsoever, he is socially the equal of a Mage.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:33:54 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
In a message dated 98-07-11 17:51:08 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes
in response to me:
> > should be exterminated if possible -- but there are a few enlightened
> > places where orcs live with humans and demi-humans in peace.
> >
> Hule, for example.
Okay, so there are a few unenlightened places where orcs and humans
get along as well. When I said "enlightened" I was thinking more of
such places as Alfheim Town (prior to the Shadow Elf invasion) and
the Kingdom of Limn in Alphatia.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:33:58 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
In a message dated 98-07-11 18:17:23 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes:
> Hm, Fabrizio, I may confuse something, but wasn't it the "Union"
> who has won the American civil war against the "Confederation"?
Actually it was the "Union" vs. the "Confederacy", but that is a minor
nitpick.
After the War of Independence, the thirteen colonies initially did set up a
confederation through a document called the "Articles of Confederation".
However, a few years later they decided that a slightly stronger federal
government was needed and thus established a federal rebulic under the
current Constitution. But it was not until the Union victory in the Civil
War that it was finally established that no U.S. state had the right to
secede from the federal government.
Also, any Canadian on the list should feel free to correct me if I am
wrong, but isn't Canada a confederation now?
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:13:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Shin Chyang Yu <scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
James Ruhland pontificated:
>
> As I said in my "Byzantium" post, I'm not an unbiased observer who is
> indifferent to the outcome, as the Net Almanac team is, so perhaps I take
> things too personally, not being properly distanced from the material.
Hey, you not the only one with that type of feeling. I always got upset
when a fantasy world made their Japan based country better than the
China based country.
John Yu
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:17:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just joined the list, and I have a few questions
On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Jim Zubkavich wrote:
Just to start, please turn off the HTML, some of us are UNIX users, and
can't read it :)
> - With a 1st level game, how do you introduce some of these elements
> of Mystara without overwhelming the players (almost half our group has
> barely ever played D&D before while the other half is quite
> experienced)?
You don't. The intrigues of Mystara are very much over a normal 1st level
player's head. The Karameikos Gaz should have a lot of info about local
government, especially in Threshold, since that is the single best
starting point for adventurers pre WoTI.
The Characters could come more into contact with Karameikan politics if
you have "Veiled society" adventure, but until they were at least level
5-6, IMC, I'd send them dungeon hopping, and simple role-playing.
> - How do I keep the group cohesive? I mean, I don't want the thief
> dashing off in every town and have to run seperate adventures just for
> him as he tries to pick pocket peasents. I'm worried that I spent too
> much time selling this game to my players based on the fact that there's
> INFINITE choice, unlike a video game. If they take it too literally, I
> figure someone will just split from the group.
Well, let them. I know that sounds bad, but you as DM can make a whole
line of adventures. Say that theif goes off picking pockets, and gets
caught. What next? The others go to rescue him from the dungeons, and
maybe earn the animosity of the people in the town!
Remember, lone-gunmanship has it's disadvantages. play those up a LOT, and
the group will remain more or less as a unit.
Also, don't be like a normal Basic DM "You arrive safely at your
destination" person. Make the party scared to DEATH of sleeping out on the
trails.
Max IV - Evil DM from the plane of Entropy ;)
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:14:12 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Deus ex Machina (was Alphatian Democracy Movements.)
>
> Among literary critics (including reviewers of gaming modules), the term
> "deus ex machina" is somewhat pejorative. The general consensus is
> that a "deus ex machina" should be avoided if at all possible --
otherwise
> the reader or player will feel cheated in that the actions of the
protagonists
> had little effect on the final outcome.
>
A much better explanation than I managed, being as I was rather wound up.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:20:10 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> James Ruhland pontificated:
>
Excellent description, btw. 8-)~
>
> Hey, you not the only one with that type of feeling. I always got upset
> when a fantasy world made their Japan based country better than the
> China based country.
>
We can comiserate, then. *G*
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:42:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Shin Chyang Yu <scy2g@watt.seas.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
James Ruhland pontificated:
>
> > James Ruhland pontificated:
> >
> Excellent description, btw. 8-)~
You know, after all these years I have been using that, I think it fits
you the best :).
BTW, despite what I might sound like in our PBEM game, I also like
Thyatis much more than Alphatia :).
John Yu
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:50:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
> >Jennites, they would likely view these "liberators" with a jaundaced eye:
> >with Metro. Alphatia gone, the hour of *complete* liberty was near.
>
> It sounds similar to South-Africa, with European white skinned people
> governing over native black skinned ones. But even there they found a
> peaceful solution, though it took a long time.
We have to remember Nelson Mandela is not equivalent to a Jennite prince.
The Jennites are very warlike people from all impressions and the
conditions in Esterhold were worse than those in South Africa.
> I'm sure Thyatians will use Jennites as slaves if they could, as they use
> to do with Hinterlanders.
I don't believe so. Thyatians never enslaved Ochaleans or Pearl Islanders
or Isle of Dawn folks (even those of Alphatian descent) anymore than they
enslaved Thyatians in general (which seems to have been on a limited
basis). Whereas the Alphatians tried to enslave the Jennite peoples
totally. Thyatians believe more in assimilation and union.
They'd rewrite Exodus to include a car crash - Walter Cronkite, on modern
television
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:54:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Jamuga Khan said:
>Hm, Fabrizio, I may confuse something, but wasn't it the "Union"
>who has won the American civil war against the "Confederation"?
>
Yes, the Union won against the Confederacy, but the term "confederation"
applies to any highly decentralized form of government in which the
constituent parts (provinces, states, Laender, etc.) hold a powerful say
in how the national government is run - the national level is more of a
figurehead, it's what the confederation shows to the outside world. This
is a general rule - there are variations of course.
Incidentally (for those who are interested), the three basic forms of
modern states in which there is more than one level of government are
confederal (see above), federal (national government has the most power,
but constituent parts have some say), and unitary (national government
dominates, and there is no state/province level, just counties and
equivalents below that). Hope this clears things up. :-)
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:59:11 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> > I'm sure Thyatians will use Jennites as slaves if they could, as they
use
> > to do with Hinterlanders.
>
> I don't believe so.
>
Plus, IIRC, no one was arguing that the Jennites would want to join the
Thyatian Empire; the argument was that they wouldn't feel the need to be a
part of either.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:15:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
KaviyD asked:
>Also, any Canadian on the list should feel free to correct me if I am
>wrong, but isn't Canada a confederation now?
>
Nope. Canada is a federal state, though the forming of our nation in 1867
was called "Confederation" (a misnomer). The federal government was given the
external duties of the state (foreign relations, taxation, etc.), while the
provinces were given what was (at the time) the "insignificant" portfolios
of education, health, local road maintenance, and local justice. As time
passed, the areas under provincial jurisdiction gained more importance and
required more money, and since our Constitution divided the nation's
business in this manner (and because our Constitution is so difficult to
amend), successive federal governments just allocated more money to the
provinces, instead of appropriating the powers (as is theoretically
possible). This is a very simplified explanantion, of course.
<opinion alert - please do not flame>
Mind you, Canada _seems_ like a confederation because a lot of our
Premiers (equivalent to state Governors) are very vocal and seem to be of
the school of thought favouring more decentralization in government (a big
mistake IMO, but this is just my opinion folks - no flames please!). In
fact, Canada has undergone many periods of centralization and
decentralization. People like me are waiting for the pendulum to swing
the other way. I could launch into a ranting screed on some of Canada's
provincial leaders, but I won't.
</opinion alert>
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Has anyone made a list of all the skills available for a Mystaran char? I
often find myself looking from one book to another trying to find a skill
I know I've seen SOMEWHERE. I think it would be helpful to many to have
such a skill list and I don't think it'd be too hard to put together
(including references as to where each skill is explained).
Anyways to get such a list started here's what I have, from the Hollow
World boxed set, DoTE, HWR2, HWR3 and PC2:
(Oh, and before anyone responds please make sure someone else hasn't
responded with the same info. I don't want the list to be victim to too
many posts repeating each other)
STR
Boxing (HWR3,pg. 23)
Diskos Throwing (HWR3,pg. 24)
Intimidate (HW,pg. 12 Thyatis book-DoTE (TDE hereafter) pg. 21)
Muscle (HW,pg. 12 TDE pg. 21)
Pankration (HWR3,pg. 26) -- presumably only chars in Milenian setting
Wrestling (HW,pg. 12 TDE pg. 21 HWR3,pg. 26)
INT (* means there are several skills under this heading)
Alchemy (Alphatian book-DoTE (ADE hereafter) pg. 26)
Alternate Magics (ADE pg. 26)
Ancient Hieroglyphics (HWR2,pg. 26)
Appraising (HWR3,pg. 23)
*Artisan (ADE pg. 26)
*Craftsman (HW,pg. 12 TDE pg. 21)
Disguise (HW,pg. 12)
Engineer (ADE pg. 26)
Fire-Building (HW,pg. 12)
Healing/Doctor (HW,pg. 12 TDE pg. 21)
*Hiding (HW,pg. 12)
Hunting (HW,pg. 12)
*Knowledge (HW, pg. 13 TDE pg. 21)
*Labor (HW, pg. 13 TDE pg. 21)
Lip Reading (HW,pg. 13 TDE pg. 21)
Machine Building (PC2,pg. 33) -- gnomes only
Magical Engineering (ADE pg. 26)
Mapping (HW,pg. 13 TDE pg. 21)
Military Tactics (HW,pg. 13 TDE pg. 22)
Mimicry (HW, pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
Modern Hieroglpyhics (HWR2, pg. 27)
*Nature Lore (HW, pg. 14)
Planar Geogrpahy (ADE pg. 26)
*Profession (HW, pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
Navigation (HW, pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
*Science (HW, pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
Shipwright (ADE pg. 26)
*Signalling (HW, pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
Snares (HW, pg. 14)
*Survival (HW, pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
Tracking (HW,pg. 14 TDE pg. 22)
WIS
*Animal Empathy (HW, pg. 14)
*Animal Train (HW, pg. 15 TDE pg. 22)
Bravery (HW,pg. 15)
Caving (HW,pg. 15 TDE pg. 22)
Codes of Law and Justice (TDE pg. 22)
Cooking (HW,pg. 15)
Danger Sense (HW,pg. 15 TDE pg. 22)
Detect Deception (HW,pg. 16 TDE pg. 22)
Direction Sense (PC2,pg. 33)
Fantasy Physics (PC2,pg. 33) -- gnomes, nagpa only
Gambling (HW,pg.16 TDE pg. 22)
Guidance/Counsel (TDE pg. 22)
*Honor (HW,pg. 16 TDE pg. 22)
Mysticism (HW,pg. 16)
Water Divining (PC2,pg. 33)
DEX
Acrobatics (HW,pg.16 TDE pg. 22)
Alertness (HW,pg.16 TDE pg. 22)
Blind Shooting (HW,pg. 16)
Bow Shield (HWR2, pg. 26)
*Bracers (HWR2, pg. 26)
Chariot Combat (HWR2, pg. 26 HWR3,pg. 23)
Chariot Driving (HWR2, pg. 26 HWR3,pg. 23)
Cheating (HW,pg. 16 TDE pg. 22)
Escape Artist (HW,pg. 16)
Find Traps (HW,pg. 16)
Forgery (HWR3,pg. 24)
Hard-ball (ADE pg. 26) -- presumably only chars in an Alphatian setting
Hear Noise (HW,pg. 16)
Hide in Shadows (HW,pg.16) - demihumans and nonhumans only
Jumping (HWR3,pg. 24)
Knot Tying (HWR3,pg. 25)
Ledge Hopping (HW,pg. 16)
Mountaineering (HW,pg. 16 TDE pg. 22)
Nithian Shield (HWR2,pg. 27) -- Nithians only
*Piloting (PC2,pg. 33 ADE pg. 26)
Quick Draw (HW,pg. 17)
*Riding (HW,pg. 17 TDE pg. 22)
Seamanship (HWR3,pg. 26)
*Stealth (HW,pg. 17)
Treewalking (HW,pg. 17 ADE pg. 26)
CON
Drinking (HW,pg. 17)
Endurance (HW,pg. 17)
Resist Heat Exhaustion (HWR2,pg. 27)
Running (HWR3,pg. 26)
CHA
Acting (HW,pg. 17 TDE pg. 23)
Bargaining (HW,pg. 17 TDE pg. 23)
Deceive (HW,pg. 17 TDE pg.23)
Etiquette (HWR,pg. 24)
Leadership (HW,pg. 18 TDE pg. 23)
*Music (HW,pg. 18 TDE pg. 23)
Oration (HWR3,pg. 25)
Persuasion (HW,pg. 18 TDE pg. 23)
Singing (HW,pg. 18 TDE pg. 23)
Storytelling (HW,pg. 18)
Hoping we can make a complete list to help both DMs and players - Mischa
(who is amazed at how long this partial list is)
They'd rewrite Exodus to include a car crash - Walter Cronkite, on modern
television
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:22:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
James Ruhland politely screeded:
>Plus, IIRC, no one was arguing that the Jennites would want to join the
>Thyatian Empire; the argument was that they wouldn't feel the need to be a
>part of either.
>
My sentiments exactly. Free Jennites of Esterhold would likely say
"Leave us alone on our peninsula - the rest of you can bloody well sod off."
They would rather be on their own - and not beholden to any empire or
nation of any sort.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:25:53 PDT
From: "Spencer Graham" <eldaah@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
me too.....
>To: mystara-l@TanSoft.COM
>Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
>Reply-To: mystara-l@mpgn.com
>
>I would like a copy of your log as well if you do not mind
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:23:08 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Deus ex Machina (long)
>
>
> had little effect on the final outcome. The later parts of "Wrath of the
> Immortals", as an adventure for player characters, are almost completely
> ruined by this factor -- after all, what can the player characters really
> accomplish?
>
Most Mystara stuff let(s) PCs have a great influence on the world around
them (I.E. the sketchy adventure ideas at the back of DotE, which give DMs
ideas of how to give PCs a prominent role in the destiny of both empires).
The *occasional* adventure where PC action is futile is in some ways
acceptable (thinking here of WotI), to some degree; how they react to
events that seem to steamroll no matter what they do may shape/bring about
a change in their characters which might otherwise not occur. Also, one
could argue that in a great "world war" like this the actions of a handfull
of people could have little real impact on the outcome (though the saga of
the Lance shows why, in epic heroism, this is not nessisarily the case): PC
action may speed up, or delay, the inevitable, but. . .
IMO, this should be *very* rare. One of the things that caused me to be. .
. .less enthusiastic about the Forgotten (rightly so!) Realms was the sharp
tendancy in the canon/published materiel and adventures to highlight the
importance of NPCs and render PC action relatively impotent.
Generaly, IMOCs, there is (if at all) only generally one (usually epic,
though) "event" that is unavoidable. As I said, how the PCs react to
futility can help shape their characters in interesting ways. However,
constant futility leads to fatalism and inevitably boredom. I've been
*dying* to use the below quote, and this is a good time for it (oh, click
the link 1st):
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/music/Minstrel.mid
". . .All afternoon I had the feeling that the outcome had already been
decreed on high, before we even took the field.
"It seemed I could hear Scottish bagpipes in the distance, keeping time
after they came after us wave after wave, gaining ground so easily they
seemed to be floating in suspended animation.
"It was a wierd, surrealistic scene, as if we were on the sidelines,
watching our own struggle, yet being powerless to do anything about it.
"After awhile it was obvious they could not be stopped."
-- Carl Eller, Minnesota Vikings Defensive End
quoted after Super Bowl VIII.
NFL Films, Super Bowl Memories.
(to get the full effect, you really have to hear John Facenda's voice,
with Dolphin Linemen blowing open holes through which Larry Czonka rumbles,
breaking tackles in slow motion, with the pipes playing in the backround.
This isn't really the *perfect* Midi, either, but it will do). (Eller
really had a gift for prose, too. Only Joe Green's "An invitation ingraved
in gold. . .an invitation to immortality" quote is comparable).
Once or so in a campaign such a thing tests the metle of the Character's
character. Endemic "adventures" along this model are, IMO, something to be
avoided like the plague.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:13 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
> the other way. I could launch into a ranting screed on
>
Well, at least I influenced people's prose. That's something. 8-)~
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:27:53 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Wonderful list, just one nitpick:
> Hard-ball (ADE pg. 26) -- presumably only chars in an Alphatian setting
>
IIRC, Karameikos has a budding Hard-Ball following now, too.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:50:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
While leafing through DotE, I came across a reference in the timeline to
the disbanding of the Order of the White Drake after the Alphatian Spike
assault. I mentions that many Order members were executed, and those who
survived were anti-Thyatian. Now then, can anyone tell me if there is any
info anywhere saying why the Order was disbanded in the first place? I
looked through DotE and couldn't find any references on the matter. Was
the Order traitorous during that battle?
Just some questions
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:53:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Mischa wrote:
>
>Has anyone made a list of all the skills available for a Mystaran?
Pasi Anias wrote a comprehensive list of skills gleaned from all the
Gazetteers (and HWR and Creature Crucibles, too, I think) - I think it's
available on Shawn's site.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #499
********************************
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mystara-digest Sunday, July 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 500
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
[MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:15:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
> >Has anyone made a list of all the skills available for a Mystaran?
>
> Pasi Anias wrote a comprehensive list of skills gleaned from all the
> Gazetteers (and HWR and Creature Crucibles, too, I think) - I think it's
> available on Shawn's site.
Just checked it (thanks for the info! I feel like I wasted the 10 min. or
so it took to write that up now. Guess I should've checked earlier to see
if such a list had been done) and it's missing the HWR/HW boxed set
skills, along with the DoTE stuff but it seems to list all the
GAZ/Creature Crucible ones.
They'd rewrite Exodus to include a car crash - Walter Cronkite, on modern
television
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:13:56 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>My sentiments exactly. Free Jennites of Esterhold would likely say
>"Leave us alone on our peninsula - the rest of you can bloody well sod
off."
>
>They would rather be on their own - and not beholden to any empire or
>nation of any sort.
I disagree. If you look at RW examples of similar former colonies of
European powers who mistreated the natives, even after throwing out the
Europeans, almost every colony still tried to get support from some other
nation. Esterhold cannot support its current population because the land is
either poor quality arctic scrub or else rugged mountains and deserts. All
but the newest former slaves (recently captured, that is) would be
completely clueless about how to survive in the wilds of Esterhold, or even
the steppes. They don't know how to fend for themselves. The Jennites in
Esterhold must either rely on a foreign power to supply them food (in
exchange, of course, for precious minerals) or face massive starvation.
It's much less romantic than the idea of complete independence, but that is
simply not realistic.
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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:44:40 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
I have a question for anyonw out there with the Monstrous Manual appendix:
What does it say, in brief, about dragons. I seem to remember someone
mentioning at some point that it says dragons have their normal AD&D law v.
chaos alignments, but were usually morally neutral? Also, does it give any
indication whether or not yellow dragons exist on Mystara?
Thanks
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:46:57 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
In a message dated 7/12/98 12:32:08 AM, you wrote:
<<I think it's
> available on Shawn's site.
>>
where is this exactly?
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:31:30 +1000
From: stan <shawn@leme.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
>> >Has anyone made a list of all the skills available for a Mystaran?
>>
>> Pasi Anias wrote a comprehensive list of skills gleaned from all the
>> Gazetteers (and HWR and Creature Crucibles, too, I think) - I think it's
>> available on Shawn's site.
>
>Just checked it (thanks for the info! I feel like I wasted the 10 min. or
>so it took to write that up now.
Well that is what the homepage is for :)
>Guess I should've checked earlier to see
>if such a list had been done) and it's missing the HWR/HW boxed set
>skills, along with the DoTE stuff but it seems to list all the
>GAZ/Creature Crucible ones.
I'll update the list appropriately.
stan
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:34:27 +1000
From: stan <shawn@leme.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
><<I think it's
>> available on Shawn's site.
>>>
>
>where is this exactly?
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
it's the archive for all the interesting stuff written on the
mailing list - and it will be updated soon
stan
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:11:17 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
At 17.33 10/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>
>> Favian Vern is noble, he's the President (=ruler) of Esterhold and
>decides
>> to run his Kingdom as a democracy.
>>
>Where did this come from, this new spirit of Democracy?
Maybe Favian Vern did some historical research and discovered this long
forgotten way of government, liked it and decided to try.
> That was, and remains, my problem with the concept from the begining. It
>is, IMO, completely out of character for any Alphatian to be a democratic
>republican.
Stereotypes.
If it's out of character (OOC) for any Alphatian to be a democratic
republican, then it should be OOC for any dwarf to befriend an elf (and
viceversa), for any Hattian to like Nuari people...
You cannot classify a whole nation in that way, otherwise political changes
would become impossible.
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:34:00 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
At 11:50 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Geoff Gander wrote:
>While leafing through DotE, I came across a reference in the timeline to
>the disbanding of the Order of the White Drake after the Alphatian Spike
>assault. I mentions that many Order members were executed, and those who
>survived were anti-Thyatian. Now then, can anyone tell me if there is any
>info anywhere saying why the Order was disbanded in the first place? I
>looked through DotE and couldn't find any references on the matter. Was
>the Order traitorous during that battle?
Yeah, that is something that always struck me as peculiar. They appear
first in B3 of course, but old Ellis is retired...him and his dragon
"Ariksbane"...nice that you get to keep the dragon...
In any case, there is no canonical reason. Might be a good spot for an off
list development group, aye?
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:58:10 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
>>> should be exterminated if possible -- but there are a few enlightened
>>places
>>> where orcs live with humans and demi-humans in peace.
>>>
>>Hule, for example.
>
>And Denagoth ;)
>
And Glantri :)
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website!
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:13:17 -0400
From: Michael Ray Johnson <mrjohnson@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Patrick Sullivan wrote:
> I have a question for anyonw out there with the Monstrous Manual appendix:
> What does it say, in brief, about dragons. I seem to remember someone
> mentioning at some point that it says dragons have their normal AD&D law v.
> chaos alignments, but were usually morally neutral? Also, does it give any
> indication whether or not yellow dragons exist on Mystara?
> Thanks
In regards to law/chaos, the dragons have the OD&D alignments and not AD&D
alignments. Thus, white dragons are neutral and not chaotic, and so on. In
regards to good/evil, most Mystaran dragons are neutral. The only exceptions
are the gold and red dragons. The Mystara Monstrous compendium includes a chart
showing what proportion of each type of dragon is which alignment.
The following is taken from the Mystara Monstrous compendium Appendix.
Lawful Dragons
Gold 95% good, 4% neutral, 1% evil
Crystalline 10% good, 80 neutral, 10% evil
Ruby 15% good, 80% neutral, 5% evil
Sapphire 5% good, 90% neutral, 5% evil
Neutral Dragons
Blue 5% good, 80% neutral, 15% evil
Jade 30% good, 60% neutral, 10% evil
Onyx 10% good, 80% neutral, 10% evil
White 5% good, 90% neutral, 5% evil
Chaotic Dragons
Red 1% good, 4% neutral, 95% evil
Amber/Brown 20% good, 70% neutral, 10% evil
Green 10% good, 60% neutral, 30% evil
Black 5% good, 90% evil, 5%
According to the Appendix, these are the only dragons that exist on Mystara.
There are no other kinds. This is supported by the section on Dracologist in
the Glantri boxed set, but there are other products which seem to disupte this.
PWA III, for example, has a bronze dragon that is prominent in the events
section. So, I would suggest that if you want to include a Yellow dragon, just
go ahead and do so.
Hope this helps.
Michael.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:15:26 -0400
From: Michael Ray Johnson <mrjohnson@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Oops! Just as I sent off my last message I noticed an error in what I had typed for
Chaotic dragons.
> Black 5% good, 90% evil, 5%
>
This should read:
Black 5% good, 90% neutral, 5% evil.
Michael.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:15:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>I disagree. If you look at RW examples of similar former colonies of
>European powers who mistreated the natives, even after throwing out the
>Europeans, almost every colony still tried to get support from some other
>nation. Esterhold cannot support its current population because the land is
>either poor quality arctic scrub or else rugged mountains and deserts.
Sure, they would likely have to rely on outside powers for the next few
decades, but just try to tell them what to do. Perhaps I should have
clarified my statement. Independent Jennites would not want Alphatians
living in their midst, though there are things they would need from them.
You cite mineral wealth (and IIRC Esterhold is rich in minerals) as a
possible item of trade for food, and this is certainly possible.
I'm sure, after a few years, and losses to their pop (not to mention invasions
by free Jennites on Skothar proper, who would want to "convert" the former
slaves back to the old ways), the Jennites would say to the NACE, "Okay,
former overlords, we need your help (ie. food and weapons), for which we
will supply you with the minerals you want, BUT it is to be a fair trade.
No food, no minerals."
If the Alphatians tried to move in a take over once again, I'm sure the
Jennites would resist - given this scenario. While they may be dependent
on the Alphatians for the short and medium term (until the become more
self-sufficient - perhaps the newly-captured slaves you mentioned would
teach those who could learn how to survive), a nation of free Jennites in
Esterhold would not send troops to aid NACE (willingly), not would they
want to become involved in it. This is what I meant. They would much
prefer NACE to mind its own business than to interfere in their own
affairs, aside from essential trade that you mentioned.
Mind you, after several hard years (decades, even), those who adapted to
the new realities would be a lot more self-sufficient. Perhaps these
Jennites would be the core of a new nation of sorts? Or, they could be
conquered by their eastern brethren, would would likely encroach westwards
given half a chance. Don't forget, though, that not all of Esterhold is a
forbidding wasteland. According to the maps, there are several areas
along the coasts that have good forests (especially where the kingdoms of
Blackrock and Verdan are today, as well as the peninsula west of Dobar
Bay, which is probably quite nice due to its southern latitiude), and
probably a few pockets of arable land. Life would no doubt be hard there,
but not impossible.
You raised some good points.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:29:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
[snip]
>From a DM's point of view, isn't just about ANY skill appropriate? If one
of my characters wants to have say "Spelunking" for a skill, I'd make it
up and let him have it.
Anyone else do this?
Max IV
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:32:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote:
> looked through DotE and couldn't find any references on the matter. Was
> the Order traitorous during that battle?
I dunno about that, but that reference surely dates the adventure "The
Silver Princess"!
Max IV
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:43:56 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
> >nation. Esterhold cannot support its current population because the
land is
> >either poor quality arctic scrub or else rugged mountains and deserts.
>
I'm not commenting on the rest of the stuff because it is clear that
people's minds are made up and no amount of reasoning will change them.
However, on this I have to speak up, 'cause it is tangentially related to
something else that bugs me
<rant mode on. . . .but then, with me, is the "rant mode" ever off?>
Esterhold is huge, when compaired to it's population. It is at roughly the
same latitude as Alberta, British Columbia, and Saskatchewan. Ok,
admittedly, all of these places are barren sheets of ice where an
impoverished population eeks out a megre existance ice fishing and
scavaging in the wasteland, furtively leading a hand-to-mouth existance and
dreaming of a better life, but people do manage, somehow, to survive even
in this savage environment.
The interior of Esterhold is largely barren rock, scrubland, and
mountanous (like BC), but along the coast are some fairly reasonable lands
and forests. Sufficient agriculture, in my opinion, could be scraped out of
the poor soil (like the coastal areas of BC or the plains of Alberta) to
allow the small population to manage a degraded existance (similar to
thouse of our friends in the Great White North).
The thing that bothers me is that folks (including TSR) really have no
understanding of the # of people a given land can be reasonably expected to
support. Outside of the Known World region of Brun, populations are
universally, IMO, way too low; it is as if they were all pastorial nomads
(because that's the aproximate population density that is given, for, say,
the IoD, MetroA, and Bellissaria, and I don't see the Alphatians living an
Ethengari style of life--no offence to Jamuga Khan, but it just doesn't
seem to fit.)
Esterhold has an area of circa 1,000,000 sq. miles; aproximately as large
as the C-Provs. I've mentioned (give or take: I admit I'm not looking them
up right now). The population is only 230,000, or less than 1 person per 4
sq. miles. IMO, that means that the land can *easily* support the existing
population (Skyfyr & Faraway are roughly on the same latitude as Oslo &
Stockholm), without even needing to return to a nomadic way of life
(coastal agriculture will do just nicely).
I thank you for your attention.
Note to the Canucks: Relax, it was all said in jest. 8-)~
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:45:34 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
>From a DM's point of view, isn't just about ANY skill
>appropriate? If one of my characters wants to have say >"Spelunking" for a
skill, I'd make it up and let him have it.
>Anyone else do this?
>Max IV
Yep. I actually go both ways though. I keep charts of all the skills
that I can find. Then I make up the ones that aren't out there for any
character that wants them.
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:48:02 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
>
> I dunno about that, but that reference surely dates the adventure "The
> Silver Princess"!
>
As far as the DotE quote, I think that was used as a reason for the Order
of the White Drake to have been in Karameikos (retrofiting the OotWD
tangentially to the RAF), they didn't give a reason for the disbandment, so
every DM can make up their own.
Given the generally noble portrayal from The Silver Princess module, I'd
say it would have been unlikely that they were disbandoned for treason.
Perhaps they were pensioned off as a standing force after the war, but
(like all Knights) stood/stand ready to be called back to service at need
(which would be a partial explanation for why they kept their mounts).
As for the rest of the explanation as to why they were "allowed" to keep
their mounts, look at it this way: do *you* want to be the one to tell a
Dragon that you're going to take it's pet human away?
I thought not. . . .much easier to let them keep 'em.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:33:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Max IV said:
>
>>From a DM's point of view, isn't just about ANY skill appropriate? If one
>of my characters wants to have say "Spelunking" for a skill, I'd make it
>up and let him have it.
>
>Anyone else do this?
Sometimes, but it's also nice to have a complete list available, with
descriptions, so it saves you the work.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:56:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
James Ruhland said:
>As far as the DotE quote, I think that was used as a reason for the Order
>of the White Drake to have been in Karameikos (retrofiting the OotWD
>tangentially to the RAF), they didn't give a reason for the disbandment, so
>every DM can make up their own.
Good enough for me, but DotE also says that many members of the Order were
executed, which, in a time of war, or shortly thereafter (IMO) means they
did something they shouldn't have done in a wartime context. I reasoned
that, in most armies (even some modern ones IRL, I bet), the penalty for
treason would be especially severe, given that switching sides could
drastically change the outcome of a battle (depending on who you are, of
course, and what happened).
How about this:
Maybe the commanding officer of the Order was a Traladaran, or rogue
Thyatian, and he/she decided that Alphatia might offer a better deal if
the Order switched its allegiance (maybe there was a secret deal where, if
the Order didn't come to the aid of Gabrionus during the Alphatian Spike
assault, and remained neutral throughout the hostilities, they would be given
rulership over Traladara and a sizeable portion of western Thyatis).
Many members of the Order agreed to this (either because they were
Traladaran, Hattian, or some other minority group) and they followed the
rogue commander's order to stay in their base (where Rugalov Keep is today
- - my little idea) while the Alphatians attacked Thyatis. Gabrionus sent
orders for the Order to mobilize, and it refused. He was dependent on the
Order attacking the Alphatian airships, and without this defence, the
airships landed around Thyatis City unimpeded, and disgorged thousands of
troops. The rest of the story we know.
After the Alphatians were beaten back, the new emperor, Thincol, set his
house in order by reclaiming the lost colonies on the Isle of Dawn, and by
dealing with those who had not followed their oaths of allegiance to the
Empire. Turncoat battalions of Hattian Legionnaires were sent to Borydos,
Alphatian guerrillas left behind by the retreating Alphatians were
captured, and the Order of the White Drake was dealt with.
Thincol summoned the commander of the Order, and accused him/her of high
treason - the Order knowingly collaborated with the Alphatians for the
express purpose of undermining the Thyatian Empire, and of pursuing its
own interests. Thincol ordered all Order members who willingly betrayed
Thyatis to be executed, and all properties of the Order to be confiscated.
The Order itself was to be cast from the history books, the names of its
members removed from public view - it was to be as though the Order of the
White Drake never existed.
Some members of the Order did not betray Thyatis, and in fact these were
the ones who alerted Thincol as to what had actually happened. These
people were transferred to the Retebius Air Fleet and the Knights of the
Air, though some among their number were conspirators who had hidden their
deeds from their fellow Order members. These soldiers were allowed to
keep their mounts, as well, since they had formed bonds with them.
Most of the former Order members have died since that time, though there
probably are a handful of them still around - either as very old men and
women, or those gifted with potions of longevity. Who knows what they
might be up to today?
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:01:27 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
>
> Good enough for me, but DotE also says that many members of the Order
were
> executed, which, in a time of war, or shortly thereafter (IMO) means they
> did something they shouldn't have done in a wartime context.
>
Drat, that's true (I guess I really should have looked it up, but I was in
full lazy mode).
Your explanation, however, is very good.
Perhaps the survivors (thouse who weren't executed, like the dudes in
Kara.) were the honorable ones, the traitors having bound n gagged them or
something (which would explain why the OotWD in tSP is portrayed nobly; the
"bad seeds" were executed, the order disbanded, and the "good guys" retired
to noble service elsewhere, as you described).
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:14:08 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
<< BTW Herve - does the SNCF know about that little Mystaran addition youve
made to the French rail service? My friends all thought that very funny! >>
Hey, it works REALLY? I've tried it more than one time,
but I've got no result?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:14:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote:
> Sometimes, but it's also nice to have a complete list available, with
> descriptions, so it saves you the work.
Of course :) I was aiming at skills not on the list though. I'm going to
be putting a LOT of new ones in in my Technomancy doc.
Max IV
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:14:03 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
<< What if the Realms people stared calling Kara-Tur KT, or Waterdeep was WD.
Jeez. What next? >>
The Forgotten Realms itself as FR?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:14:06 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
<< If this is true, then the custom in Wendar is probably to mate for
life, since the elves there have lived closely with humans for centuries.
This could be another major source of tension in Wendar: thousands of
urbane Alfheimers with no moral qualms about adultery loose in a nation full
of married elven country bumpkins. There must be quite a few angry
Wendarian husbands and wives... >>
Or vice versa? The humans of Wendar might not mate
as they have learned it from the elves.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:26:12 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
>
> << What if the Realms people stared calling Kara-Tur KT, or Waterdeep was
WD.
> Jeez. What next? >>
>
> The Forgotten Realms itself as FR?
>
IMO, they should rename it "The Misbegotten Realms".
But, then, I also think "Panglossia" has a nice ring to it, so wadda I
know. 8-)~
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #500
********************************
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mystara-digest Sunday, July 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 501
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Haven and the Silver Princess
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:27:11 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
>
> Or vice versa? The humans of Wendar might not mate
> as they have learned it from the elves.
>
Might not mate? Hopefully they won't go that far. I mean, not mating for
life is one thing, but not mating at all would be a. . . . .stark. . .
.existance.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:09:28 -0500
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <galwylin@airnet.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Michael Ray Johnson wrote:
>
> According to the Appendix, these are the only dragons that exist on Mystara.
> There are no other kinds. This is supported by the section on Dracologist in
> the Glantri boxed set, but there are other products which seem to disupte this.
> PWA III, for example, has a bronze dragon that is prominent in the events
> section. So, I would suggest that if you want to include a Yellow dragon, just
> go ahead and do so.
I introduced a bronze dragon in Karameikos by way of a bronze statue.
The wizard that owned the statue was killed before he told exactly what
the dragon was. Either it was golem-type of magic or had been placed
into the form of a statue from elsewhere on Mystara. The dragon himself
doesn't remember where he came from but doesn't believe he is a
construct of magic and is looking for other bronze dragons on Mystara.
He may even be from off-world.
- --
This has been a Galwylin® Production
The Tome of Galwylin (http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/)
galwylin@airnet.net | ICQ #6755972 | AIM: Galwylin
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
St. James of Screed said:
>IMO, they should rename it "The Misbegotten Realms".
> But, then, I also think "Panglossia" has a nice ring to it, so wadda I
>know. 8-)~
Yes! A new campaign setting from TSR! "Panglossia, the Land Where Nothing
Bad Ever Happens" :-)
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dominique Rivard <tharquil@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
- ---Geoff Gander <au998@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> Good enough for me, but DotE also says that many members of the
Order were
> executed, which, in a time of war, or shortly thereafter (IMO) means
they
> did something they shouldn't have done in a wartime context.
I always seen the Order of the White Drake as a most lawful one. OTOH
Thyatis is know for being treacherous. So, could the emperor have
plotted against the Order to bring it down because it was to powerful?
Or perhaps because the Order's ideals obligated them to disobey
treacherous orders from the Emperor?
==
Tharquil's French D&D Homepage at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/5201
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:34:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
James, Templar of the Holy Illuminated Order of St. Screed the
Justifier, said:
>Your explanation, however, is very good.
>Perhaps the survivors (thouse who weren't executed, like the dudes in
>Kara.) were the honorable ones, the traitors having bound n gagged them or
>something (which would explain why the OotWD in tSP is portrayed nobly; the
>"bad seeds" were executed, the order disbanded, and the "good guys" retired
>to noble service elsewhere, as you described).
Could be, but DotE also says that many of the survivors were fervently
anti-Thyatian. I think that a lot of the reassigned guys were more noble,
as you say, but I still think some of the bad apples covered up their
deeds to stay alive, and then pushed their agenda once they joined new
orders. Of course, most of these guys would be dead by now (those events
happened 40 years ago - 55 if you run a campaign in 1015 AC).
Speaking of which, have we decided on a proper time frame for B3 (Palace
of the Silver Princess)? I would think that it should be not long after the
Spike Assault (960-970 AC), though you could modify things and run it in
the present day, saying that the character who was in the Order (can't
remember his name) has magical benefits of some kind and hasn't aged.
Well then, looks like another loose end might be close to resolution. :-)
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:32:41 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
>
> Yes! A new campaign setting from TSR! "Panglossia, the Land Where Nothing
> Bad Ever Happens" :-)
>
Ahh, here I thought for sure you'd react to the vile mischaracterazation of
your native land, not this.
All I can say is I'm in a silly mood today. 8-)~
[Btw, I looked at a map, and Paris is on roughly the same latitude as Port
Marin. While the Gallic land is a moonscape, and France does have its
agricultural problems, these are mainly caused by the CAP, and by the
attitude of France's farmers that they are entitled to live off the labour
of others, not by the poor quality of the land itself.
Just further evidence, IMO, that Esterhold could easily support the small
population that inhabits it, so long as NACE doesn't develop a CAP and
Esterhold's Farmers don't develop poor labour habits. 8-)~.
At least if Esterhold were out of NACE, they wouldn't have to live in fear
of a CAP, but I've already tabled that disagreement.]
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:40:55 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
>
> Could be, but DotE also says that many of the survivors were fervently
> anti-Thyatian.
>
Well, their is Dominique Rivard, which fits with the general libelous
anti-Thyatian tone of everything else. I suppose that could be adopted,
though I really doubt that Thincol would weaken his military when he is
known for rebuilding it.
But my opinions. . . .lets just say they form "the minority view" on most
subjects.
> Speaking of which, have we decided on a proper time frame for B3 (Palace
> of the Silver Princess)? I would think that it should be not long after
the
> Spike Assault (960-970 AC),
>
Hmmmmn. . .you know, the Silver Princess (printed well before most
Gazzeteers et al, including Kara. IIRC) doesn't really fit either the
*recient* past/Traldara (I.E. just before or just after Stefan the
all-Noble took over), or the present/near present.
I suppose it could be 'retrofited', with the title "Silver Princess" being
kind of a "nickname" for a local noble rather than her actual title
(Adriana being the only real "Princess" of official standing in
Karameikos.)
Could find a way to timejump folks back to a Traldara where a "Silver
Princess" of Haven (Traldaran) might exist, though.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:47:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Tharquil said:
>I always seen the Order of the White Drake as a most lawful one. OTOH
>Thyatis is know for being treacherous. So, could the emperor have
>plotted against the Order to bring it down because it was to powerful?
>Or perhaps because the Order's ideals obligated them to disobey
>treacherous orders from the Emperor?
Well, the emperor at the time was Gabrionus, and I don't know how he was
as a ruler (though my impression was that he wasn't all that great). Maybe
he did fear the Order, and perhaps his bid to use them against the sky
ships of Alphatia was more of a suicide mission? What the corrupt
commander of the Order did was make a deal with Alphatia to undermine
Thyatis, which went against the lawful precepts of the Order.
Gabrionus may have been nasty, but the Order still had a duty to protect
the Empire. Maybe this was the reason why the more principled members of
the Order went to Thincol (who, in their eyes, was clearly going to be the
next emperor) and told him about the betrayal. Thincol, being a deft
politician, but not an evil man, knew that the Order had violated its
oath, but at the same time some members still kept to their duties. In
the end, he disbanded the Order, and had only those who were guilty of
conspiring against the Empire executed. The loyal ones were reassigned,
and some traitors escaped justice to live on.
Now then, this asks the question as to why Gabrionus feared the Order.
Maybe the Order noticed the hardships the Traladarans were facing under
the oppressive rule of their governors. That, and the fact that many of
them were Traladaran (my idea, adds a bit of depth, IMO), forced them to
stand up to Gabrionus and ask him to ease up on Traladara. Gabrionus saw
them as the seed of an independent Traladara, and he devised a plot to
have them wiped out. Gabrionus' stance was one reason (but not the only
one) why many Order members broke their oaths.
The traitorous members of the Order had already secretly broken their
oaths, and had made deals with the Alphatians to have their own nation
once the war was over, in exchange for neutrality. So, in the end, the
Order was at fault because many of its members (but not all of them) had
broken their vows and sided with Alphatia, but Gabrionus' distrust of the
Order was also a factor, as well as his efforts to eliminate them.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:55:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
>From on High spake St. James of Screestantinople
>Ahh, here I thought for sure you'd react to the vile mischaracterazation of
>your native land, not this.
> All I can say is I'm in a silly mood today. 8-)~
>
I'd send my hordes of polar bears, angry beavers, and timber wolves after
you from my icy aerie here in Norwold (aka Canada), but I have decided to
spare your land from my frigid shadow. :-)
> Just further evidence, IMO, that Esterhold could easily support the small
>population that inhabits it, so long as NACE doesn't develop a CAP and
>Esterhold's Farmers don't develop poor labour habits. 8-)~.
Sure, the area around Dobar Bay would be good agricultural land, but I'm
sure there's something there that prevents it - hordes of environmentalist
orcs, maybe? As a side note, I'm sure you know that in northern Alberta
(which is about 55 degrees N), there is an area called the Peace River, a
land of very fertile soils and a decent climate. This pocket of
agricultural land is surrounded by boreal forests - I'm sure a parallel
exists in Esterhold, but then again is farming a natural aspect of Jennite
culture?
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
>Well, their is Dominique Rivard, which fits with the general libelous
>anti-Thyatian tone of everything else. I suppose that could be adopted,
>though I really doubt that Thincol would weaken his military when he is
>known for rebuilding it.
> But my opinions. . . .lets just say they form "the minority view" on most
>subjects.
>
Well, some of the former Drakers were loyal, and perhaps he did not know
that many survivors (some of whom went underground) held anti-Thyatis
views? In any case, I don't think he could afford to keep unreliable
units around.
Anyhow, it's all a moot point now, I'm sure, since most of 'em are dead.
I just noticed that thing about the Order, and wondered why there
should be such a gaping hole - I mean, this could be the basis of
some good adventures!
> I suppose it could be 'retrofited', with the title "Silver Princess" being
>kind of a "nickname" for a local noble rather than her actual title
>(Adriana being the only real "Princess" of official standing in
>Karameikos.)
Possible. Or it could be that Haven is the name of an ancient Traladaran
kingdom?
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:04:10 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
> land of very fertile soils and a decent climate. This pocket of
> agricultural land is surrounded by boreal forests - I'm sure a parallel
> exists in Esterhold, but then again is farming a natural aspect of
Jennite
> culture?
>
Well, on the one hand people are saying that the Jennites can't adopt the
Jen/nomadic way of life because they've adapted to Alphatia's
agricultural-based society, but on the other hand folks are saying that
they can't farm because they are Jennites.
I guess the argument is that they probably can't do anything for
themselves, so they need paternalistic NACE. . .surely a colonialist
attitude, but would it be accurate?
I shall refrain from posting my own comment on that at this time.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:07:41 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
>
> Possible. Or it could be that Haven is the name of an ancient Traladaran
> kingdom?
>
Certainly a possibility; thus, if put in a "modern" setting, the "Silver
Princess" could represent the indigenous, ligitimate, ruler (as opposed to
the Karameikan interlopers), with the title/tradition maintained informally
by the local population, and since the area is still rough wilderness, her
authority still has some sway.
Or, if put in the past, "Haven" could represent an independant
principality (which would fit well into Traldaran history, since it was
supposedly fragmented after the Halav et al Kingdom).
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:37:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote:
> Yes! A new campaign setting from TSR! "Panglossia, the Land Where Nothing
> Bad Ever Happens" :-)
That would get old really fast :)
Max IV
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:39:38 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
<< Most of the former Order members have died since that time, though there
probably are a handful of them still around - either as very old men and
women, or those gifted with potions of longevity. Who knows what they
might be up to today? >>
Interesting concept, but not satisfying altogether.
What about another idea: The Order of the White Drake
was a small but powerful organization stationed (and possibly
founded) in the Protectorate of Traladara. When the campaign
on the Isle of Dawn was lost, emperor Gabrionus sent for the
rest of the order still holding the Protectorate. Unfortunately
the knights were just preparing to fight a horde of humanoids
from the mountains strong enough to bring great havoc above
the land.
Let's not forget that the land was part of Thyatis, and the only
military units were Thyatian. Most of them might be already
sent to the homelands or the IoD, and the Knight of the
White Drake were the sole defender. The commander decided
to solve the problem before bringing relief to the endangered
capital. When they finally arrived the Alphatian troops were
already on a hasty retreat, and the new Thyatian emperor
charged and convicted them for treason.
Those knight who fought the Alphatians were integrated into
the RAF, those who came too late were executed, and some,
like Ellis, were left behind in Traladara and became outcasts.
The main difference would be that the knights were punished
for doing the good and right.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:39:35 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< Well, I think that if the blacks and Indians had an option and the strength
to throw the whites out of America, they would have done so. And Jennites
*do* have that option and probably the strength. As James already said,
there are *far* more Jennites in Esterhold than Alphatians (whereas the
blacks probably didn't outnumber the whites in America very significantly,
although I admit I am not sure on this point).
>>
But they don't have the strength! Even man-of-war of
king Xanthus was too much for them. The intelligent
and educated Jennite ex-slaves know that they could
not win a war against the New Alphatian Confederated
Empire as long as their attention is not distracted
elsewhere.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:39:39 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
<< (because that's the aproximate population density that is given, for, say,
the IoD, MetroA, and Bellissaria, and I don't see the Alphatians living an
Ethengari style of life--no offence to Jamuga Khan, but it just doesn't
seem to fit.) >>
Hey, it seems that I'm a really well known guy nowadays
as I'm constantly reading my name. :-)
But you're mentioning an interesting point. I've noticed
that there were no steppes mentioned, likewise no deserts
with the exceptions of Thothia and the uninhabited inland
of Esterhold. Wouldn't it be interesting to see Alphatians
living in (and adapted to) a desert or as nomadic riders?
Otherwise completely Alphatian, of course...
We should take a closer look to the Empire. Maybe that
we'll find some more interesting subcultures.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:39:37 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Night Below
I would to have a copy too, please
Jamuga Khan
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:39:36 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< Mages are "superior" based on general bias: all spellcasters may be
"equal" under the law in Alphatia, but clearly Wizards/Magic-Users (the
"1,000 Wizards" of the council) are "more equal than others" socially, de
facto, if not legally, de jure. >>
This exactly the opinion I'm always fighting. This makes
Alphatia a bigger version of Glantri, and I'm sure that nobody
wants this. If you could find the time, then visit my homepage
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan">
http://members.aol.com/JamugaKhan</A>
and read my article about the Grand Council.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:48:21 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> This exactly the opinion I'm always fighting.
>
Oh, by and large, it's a good fight; but it is, IMO, clear from the canon
that mages are in Alphatia "more equal than other" spellcasters.
Clerics of Alphatia unite! You have nothing to loose but your chains! 8-)~
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:49:50 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> But they don't have the strength!
>
That is the kind of attitude that lead the North Vietnamese to meekly
accept that they could not prevail, and Ho Chi Min wisely decided not to
try to defeat America. . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:00:04 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Haven and the Silver Princess
<< Possible. Or it could be that Haven is the name of an ancient Traladaran
kingdom? >>
Yes, but normally it's completely isolated from the rest of
the world, so it doesn't matter anything.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:00:00 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
<< Might not mate? Hopefully they won't go that far. I mean, not mating for
life is one thing, but not mating at all would be a. . . . .stark. . .
.existance. >>
Foreign language - difficult language...
O.k., look what I've meant, not what I've written.
Jamuga Khan
"No, sorry, the Mighty Khan cannot talk to you. He
is occupied by his studies."
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:03:54 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
>
><< BTW Herve - does the SNCF know about that little Mystaran addition
youve
> made to the French rail service? My friends all thought that very
funny! >>
>
>Hey, it works REALLY? I've tried it more than one time,
>but I've got no result?
Yeah, we recently put a new version, on beta test, and we're having big
problems with it. You're quite lucky if you manage to use our software
at all currently (you increase your chances if you don't try it from 9
to 19, French time, on weekdays).
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:07:42 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
><< Mages are "superior" based on general bias: all spellcasters may be
> "equal" under the law in Alphatia, but clearly Wizards/Magic-Users (the
> "1,000 Wizards" of the council) are "more equal than others" socially, de
> facto, if not legally, de jure. >>
>
>This exactly the opinion I'm always fighting. This makes
>Alphatia a bigger version of Glantri, and I'm sure that nobody
>wants this. If you could find the time, then visit my homepage
DotE states that everyone who can tries to be a magic-user, not because
clerics are looked down upon, but rather becuase Alphatians in general are
almost completel apathetic toward the Immortals.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:08:33 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>But they don't have the strength! Even man-of-war of
>king Xanthus was too much for them. The intelligent
>and educated Jennite ex-slaves know that they could
>not win a war against the New Alphatian Confederated
>Empire as long as their attention is not distracted
>elsewhere.
Unless, of course, the Jennites of Esterhold forge an alliance with Thyatis
or Minoa.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:13:29 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> Unless, of course, the Jennites of Esterhold forge an alliance with
Thyatis
> or Minoa.
>
Thyatis could at best supply arms & perhaps distraction, but IMO no more
than that (Esterhold being so far away & Thyatis' fleet having been sunk by
previously unheard of undersea nations).
I've been trying to stay out of these discussions, but failing. *sigh* the
will is weak (people make these arguments that make me apolectic. . .)
Anyhow, here's a midi of congradulations to some. 8-)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/music/SWAward.mid
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #501
********************************
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mystara-digest Sunday, July 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 502
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on social order
Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:23:54 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
>Well, on the one hand people are saying that the Jennites can't adopt the
>Jen/nomadic way of life because they've adapted to Alphatia's
>agricultural-based society, but on the other hand folks are saying that
>they can't farm because they are Jennites.
> I guess the argument is that they probably can't do anything for
>themselves, so they need paternalistic NACE. . .surely a colonialist
>attitude, but would it be accurate?
But they haven't adapted to the Alphatian agrarian society. The Jennite
slaves were used primarily for two purposes--working the mines that made an
Esterhold colony worthwhile in the first place and acting as servants in the
homes of their masters. There was some light agriculture in Blackrock, but
none in Verdan. DotE says, "It's bare and unproductive land, requiring a
lot of work to produce adequate crops." There's no indication of what it
means by "adequate," but I always assumed it meant "profitable." Someone
mentioned Norway and Sweden as similar climates to these kingdoms'. I
agree--and neither country could come close to supporting itself with its
farm products. Both rely very heavily on imports and on fish. I'm not
saying that Esterhold could never be self-sufficient, but that it will take
several years for them to reach that point--years in which they must rely on
someone else for food, or else face starvation. As mentioned, the area
around Port Marlin could certainly sustain a higher population, but who's
going to move thousands of former slaves over 1500 miles of the most
inhospitable terrain on Mystara to get there?
IMO, Esterhold's future should probably look somewhat similar to the
African nations who through off the colonialists in the fifties and sixties:
a long series of dictators and coups, with little changing for the average
Jennite. It doesn't fit well in Panglossia, but this is Mystara, and it's
much more realistic.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:25:37 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
>
> But you're mentioning an interesting point. I've noticed
> that there were no steppes mentioned, likewise no deserts
> with the exceptions of Thothia and the uninhabited inland
> of Esterhold.
>
Hmmmn. . .well, no steppes mentioned, but steppland often fades rather
indistinguishably into plains/farmland.
I.E., Ukraine is arguably (well, not arguably: face it, it is) the best
farmland in [I guess I'll just say "Russian areas". Grrrr. . .anyhow, you
know the region].
For almost all of history that area was the playground of various nomads
(Cimmerians*, Scythians, Roxolani, Alans, Ostrogoths**, Huns, Avars again,
Bulgars***, Magyars, Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols), a situation that only
came to an end with the invention of effective gunpowder weapons.
Considering how sparsly settled major chunks of Alphatia are, perhaps some
kingdoms practice odd pastorial ways of life which are otherwise absent
from Alphatian society (comparabile situation would be 19th century
American West cattle "baronys" vs. the more urbanized East).
One could have range wars, discord over enclosure ("don't fence me
in"/"open range"), etc.
Plains make good farmland, but nomads love the plains, too; thus the
endemic conflict/struggle over who would dominate such areas. Farmers
usually outbred nomads, but nomads were so much better at killing, that
things generally went their way when they were organized under an effective
leader.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:37:28 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>Little/no attention was given to the topic of slavery in material on
>Norwold. My guess is that like Karameikos (which is run by a Thyatian,
but
>one that abhors and thus outlawed the practice), Norwold wouldn't have
>slaves. I'm not sure if it would be outlawed, or if it would just be
>something that "isn't done here", or what, but it seems out of
character
>for the place (see, I'm not totally anti-Alphie).
Yeah, that's my feeling too.
>> But Floating Ar, Qeodhar, Bellissaria, the IoD, Aquas,
>> and the Alatians all still practice slavery.
>>
>My main point is that it seems to get little or no attention; most
>Alphatian social problems go unremarked upon.
That's because it's not a social problem. Slavery is not a social
problem. Generally, slavery enriches a country; it becomes a problem
only in two cases: if the slaves revolt (like in Esterhold), or if the
country becomes too dependent on its slaves and becomes decadent (if I
say Thyatis here, you're probably going to flame me ;) Alphatia is not
dependent on its slaves at all, they are just a facility so the wizards
don't have to do menual tasks with their magics but instead use their
magic for their own fun, but they could do it most of what they assign
to their slaves with cantrips and such, and the crops are tended by
commoners. And Alphatia is (arguably) nor decadent (just weird, as fits
wizards). Note that what I'm saying is true for most of Alphatia, but
not for Esterhold; Esterhold was the only place where slaves really were
needed (and badly treated).
>> True. Though people in little countries of the OW probably don't much
>> like imperialistic Thyatis either, and many commoners of those
countries
>> also fear the dark wizards of Glantri as much as those of faraway
>> Alphatia.
>>
>Definately true.
>
>> However, Alphatia never threatened any of those countries, only
Thyatis,
>> Glantri and the HK. In fact, Alphatia even stroke a deal with
Karameikos
>> to be allowed through their territory.
>>
>That was a deus ex machina style thing. I have my own problems with
canon.
>. . .
I can see that...
Though I would myself call that a good political coup by Stefan, not a
deus ex machina.
> Btw, Alphatia *did* also invade Ylaruam. That got brushed over
completely,
>because it was just a tool; if Thyatis had done it that way, their
would
>have been all kinds of consiquences. But for Alphatia, anything goes. .
. .
>
Well, Thyatis does share a border with Ylaruam. They sometimes fight
along that border, and Ylari can be quite agressive. Now, Alphatia does
not share a border with Ylaruam, and the two are separated by a sea. So
Alphatia doesn't really fear military retaliation from Ylaruam (at
worst, skirmishes while the bulk of their army was crossing Ylari
territory heading for Thyatis); at worse, the Ylari would be really
upset an annoy them on a political level, which isn't too annoying since
Alphatia is not much involved in OW politics anyway.
>> otherwise had been Thyatian land). So Thothia may seem quiet and low
>> profile, while in fact it's one of the most powerful factions at the
>> council.
>>
>IMO, not only would it have been more reasonable, but for long-term
>gameplay, more fun, to have Thothia form its own intentions, and become
an
>independant power block. TSR seems to have toyed with this idea but
droped
>it (because it wasn't in Alphatia's best interests) by the end of the
PWA
>III timeline. I disagreed with that (apparent) decision.
> One of my biggest problems, as things developed (slowly, over time),
is
>that the "Known World" region is deplorably congested with petty
states,
>while outside of that there are these huge blocks. IMO, a Thothia that
>governed the "Alphatian" portion of the IoD would have been a step
towards
>rectifying that.
> No one wants to hear my ideas for "cleaning up" Mystara, but they
include
>divesting both empires of their colonial posessions (Alphatia would
center
>on Bellsissaria, which as I have already argued is easily big enough to
be
>an Empire all by itself), with Thyatis gaining in compensation
Karameikos,
>Minrothad & Ierendi. Alfheim would have joined Darokin (but something
else
>happened there. . .) with Wendar becoming the "elven" nation, and
Vestland
>& Soderfjord would become one nation.
> Then, with fewer (but larger/more viable) countries in the "Known
World",
>the focus could move out to the wider world as a whole. But, alas, this
>will never happen.
You're thinking like an American. I remember Bruce Heard already told
that to someone on the mmb :) Look at a map of Europe. There are many
many countries, including very small ones. With different languages,
different cultures, etc. Actually, I tend to think that the big power
blocks are out of character for a fantasy setting, and that places like
Hule, Thyatis and Alphatia are way too large. Historically, few empires
were that large, and when such large empires came to be, they didn't
last that long (though on Mystara, magic helps).
>> snappish
>>
>You bet. 8-)~
>
>> But don't be afraid, Zandor is still around. Well, not in the NACE,
but
>> in the HW.
>>
>As a pathetic non-entity. Even von Hendrix has more significance.
Don't say before you see what he's doing.
And BTW, von Hendriks does have quite a role in the almanacs.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:31:44 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
> But they haven't adapted to the Alphatian agrarian society. The Jennite
> slaves were used primarily for two purposes--working the mines that made
an
> Esterhold colony worthwhile in the first place and acting as servants in
the
> homes of their masters. There was some light agriculture in Blackrock,
but
> none in Verdan. DotE says, "It's bare and unproductive land, requiring a
> lot of work to produce adequate crops." There's no indication of what it
> means by "adequate," but I always assumed it meant "profitable."
>
The mere presence of such statements indicates that agricultural efforts
are undertaken. No need for it to be "profitable", just marginally cheaper
than growing food elsewhere and shipping it to Esterhold (saving on
expenses, rather than producing income).
And I doubt the Alphatian slaveholders would have worked the fields
themselves.
> Someone
> mentioned Norway and Sweden as similar climates to these kingdoms'. I
> agree--and neither country could come close to supporting itself with its
> farm products. Both rely very heavily on imports and on fish.
>
Esterhold's population is *FAR* lower than that of either nation, either in
the present or even in midieval/renaissance times. This could be a
plausable reason for the discrepancy: population levels weren't allowed to
rise above what could be easily supported under local conditions, again, to
save the expense of having to ship in food from elsewhere.
Imported foods would have been the delicacies that the Alphatian overlords
prefered, while the servile population had to make do with megre locally
available foodstuffs (which would have been their traditional diet anyhow).
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:35:15 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
>
> For almost all of history that area was the playground of various nomads
> (Cimmerians*, Scythians, Roxolani, Alans, Ostrogoths**, Huns, Avars
again,
> Bulgars***, Magyars, Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols),
>
Groan; I marked eventual footnotes, but forgot to put in the actual
footnotes themselves. They are:
* NO, not THOUSE "Cimmerians", though that is where he got the name from.
**Ostrogoths adopted the nomadic way of life when they controled this
region.
***Bulgars: early Bulgars were related to/an offshoot from the Hunnic
tribes, living a nomadic way of life like their forebearers and gradually
assimilating into the Slavic population by circa the 9th-10th century.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:46:40 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
>----->>I really like your northern Ireland analogy. Gives me ideas.
Actually
>I
>>>was leaning toward an Italy (politically), but adding elements of
Irish
>>>IRA is very good an idea.
>>>
>>Italy? You mean a big political mess? :-)
yup
>*sigh* Maybe this Esterhold democracy will have proportional
>representation...
not exactly, but...
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:25:33 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
At 21.54 11/07/98 -0400, Geoff Gander wrote:
>
>Incidentally (for those who are interested), the three basic forms of
>modern states in which there is more than one level of government are
>confederal (see above), federal (national government has the most power,
>but constituent parts have some say), and unitary (national government
>dominates, and there is no state/province level, just counties and
>equivalents below that). Hope this clears things up. :-)
Thanks Geoff for clearing things up.
I thought federation and confederation were synonyms for a union of
different parts (provinces, states...) in a common nation. Well, actually I
knew there were some differences, but I didn't know which ones.
BTW: what's Glantri? A confederation of Principalities?
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:31:32 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
At 21.50 11/07/98 -0400, Mischa E Gelman wrote:
>
>> I'm sure Thyatians will use Jennites as slaves if they could, as they use
>> to do with Hinterlanders.
>
>I don't believe so. Thyatians never enslaved Ochaleans or Pearl Islanders
>or Isle of Dawn folks (even those of Alphatian descent) anymore than they
>enslaved Thyatians in general (which seems to have been on a limited
>basis). Whereas the Alphatians tried to enslave the Jennite peoples
>totally. Thyatians believe more in assimilation and union.
>
So why did they enslave Hinterlanders? Maybe because they're more warlike
people, like Jennites BTW.
Anyway my statement had a broader meaning. I doubt Thyatis will ever
conquer Esterhold, because it's too far away, but I don't think a Thyatian
would refuse buying Jennites slaves, if offered some.
**************
Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com
DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant
Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:59:29 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
> Esterhold is huge, when compaired to it's population. It is at roughly the
>same latitude as Alberta, British Columbia, and Saskatchewan. Ok,
>admittedly, all of these places are barren sheets of ice where an
>impoverished population eeks out a megre existance ice fishing and
>scavaging in the wasteland, furtively leading a hand-to-mouth existance and
>dreaming of a better life, but people do manage, somehow, to survive even
>in this savage environment.
And therefore at more or less the same latitude as England (well, maybe
Scotland). That doesnt necessarily mean the place is a sheet of ice...
Well - maybe Scotland :)
> The thing that bothers me is that folks (including TSR) really have no
>understanding of the # of people a given land can be reasonably expected to
>support. Outside of the Known World region of Brun, populations are
>universally, IMO, way too low; it is as if they were all pastorial nomads
>(because that's the aproximate population density that is given, for, say,
>the IoD, MetroA, and Bellissaria, and I don't see the Alphatians living an
>Ethengari style of life--no offence to Jamuga Khan, but it just doesn't
>seem to fit.)
Yeah, I noticed population problems as well. Also, something which has
always got me - the Savage Coast has lots of extremes. Bellayne has about
double the population of Renardy (I always imagined them as roughly equal)
assuming similar percentages of each countries population are rural (there
is only populations given for cities...). Herath is huge as well. Eusdria
and Robrenn are flyspecks, IIRC, and the Savage Baronies might as well not
exist, as far as contributing population to the SC (although thats because
they are colonies, of course).
I dont really pay much attention to stuff like population figures
really.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:09:49 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> That's because it's not a social problem. Slavery is not a social
> problem. Generally, slavery enriches a country; it becomes a problem
> only in two cases:
>
Well, Alphatia (being perfect in every way: "The Best of All Possible
Worlds"), has no social problems. But, generally, slavery does *not* enrich
a country. It at best enriches selective classes while (relatively)
impoverishing others, and introduces a whole host of problems:
1) Slaves generally do not reproduce in sufficient numbers to keep up with
their losses (negative birth/death ratio); thus, you keep having to go out
and gather more, which isn't usually a pleasant process.
2) Introduction and/or expansion of slavery, while benificial to slave
holders (usually the wealthy), is bad for society as a whole (displaces the
more numerous, but less weathly "middle class" farmers from the land. c.f.
Roman Republic; the displacement causes a whole host of other problems).
3) cheap slave labor generally stiffles inovation: I.E. the practice of
widespread slavery often *leads* the society to become dependant and
decadent. I.E. steam power, clockworks, and other useful inovations were
all discovered in the classical/Hellenistic period, but they were not put
to widespread or efficient uses, primarily because of the avalability of
cheap human "machines".
Thus, slavery is of benificial utility and enrichment to selective classes
in a society ("they are just a facility so the wizards don't have to do
menual tasks with their magics but instead use their magic for their own
fun, but they could do it most of what they assign to their slaves with
cantrips and such, and the crops are tended by commoners"), but a drag on
the socioeconomy of the society & nation as a whole.
In the long run market economies with free labour are much more enriching
to a country as a whole, while various methods of unfree labour (slavery,
serfdom, etc) are not nearly as efficient.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:26:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mischa E Gelman <megst19+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
> country becomes too dependent on its slaves and becomes decadent (if I
> say Thyatis here, you're probably going to flame me ;) Alphatia is not
Fireball fire one! Meteor Storm fire two!
> commoners. And Alphatia is (arguably) nor decadent (just weird, as fits
> wizards).
As you say - arguably. IMO Alphatia's more decadent than any other OW
nation (though I don't know much about Glantri, which seems similar). How
many other nations settle disputes via magical duels and are filled with
drug (ab)users? I'm sure you could make Alphatia not decadent if that's
how your version of Mystara looks. On mine, they are decadent. I just
don't see from the source materials where they are any better than the
Thyatians on the morality front.
> Note that what I'm saying is true for most of Alphatia, but
> not for Esterhold; Esterhold was the only place where slaves really were
> needed (and badly treated).
And Esterhold is the main focus of this discussion. The situation there
was much harsher than for those living under Afridhi or Thonian rule (who
were often rebelling) or Milenian rule (with all the little plots being
hatched against the rulers). I don't see it as impossible or even as
unlikely that the Jennites will rebel and never come to trust the
Alphatians. After all, Americans still don't trust or respect monarchical
societies for the most part (People magazine readers excluded).
> >> But don't be afraid, Zandor is still around. Well, not in the NACE,
> >> in the HW.
> >>
> >As a pathetic non-entity. Even von Hendrix has more significance.
>
> Don't say before you see what he's doing.
Yep, last time I checked we had big plans for Zandor (though unfortunately
I am not good at keeping up with the Almanac HW discussions. Sorry,
Haavard (sp?))
It's been years since I was able to work up a snit over the Miss America
Pageant..at a moment when a woman can be a Supreme Court justice, an
astronaut, or vice president, it isn't as troublesome to see one make it
on her measurements instead of her credentials. Just a bit silly. -
columnist Ellen Goodman, 1984
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:32:11 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
> they [slaves] are just a facility so the wizards don't have to do
> menual tasks with their magics but instead use their magic for their own
> fun,
>
I'd also argue that this is a somewhat decadent/dependant attitude, but
Alphatia experiences no such problems.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:38:03 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
>
> > Note that what I'm saying is true for most of Alphatia, but
> > not for Esterhold; Esterhold was the only place where slaves really
were
> > needed (and badly treated).
>
> And Esterhold is the main focus of this discussion.
>
IMO, and just IMO, Alphatian lower classes, slaves included, are as badly,
or worse, treated as Thyatian slaves. Certainly, canon makes no real
distinction. Thyatian "commoners" are at least Citizens, with legal rights
(in a much better legal code than the horrendous Alphatian one), and any
Thyatian can, in theory and in practice, rise by merit (and guile) to any
level in society.
Back to Esterhold, IMO slaves aren't really *needed* there either. The
same work could be done IMO with free labour more productively (though at
greater cost, since you actually have to pay them and have some regard for
the welfare of the workers, or none will apply for the job). Slavery is
"cheap" because slaves are disposable machines: if one gets broken, you
just discard it and aquire another.
That is profitable for the slave owners, but hardly enriching, either
financially or in other ways, for the nation/society as a whole. Just ask
any Darokinian economist if slavery or free labour is of greater marginal
utility, and they will tell you that free labour enriches a nation far more
than slavery ever could.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:47:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on social order
> >
> IMO, and just IMO, Alphatian lower classes, slaves included, are as
badly,
> or worse, treated as Thyatian slaves. Certainly, canon makes no real
> distinction.
>
Clarification: not all Alphatian lower classes are as badly treated as
Thyatian slaves.
What I *meant* to say here is that the Alphatian lower classes are as
badly, or worse, treated as their Thyatian counterparts (I.E. Alphatian
slaves are as bad off, or worse, as Thyatian slaves, Alphatian poor no
better off than Thyatian poor, etc).
Just reading the legal codes should make that clear.
Also, check out the Slave entry for both in the DotE Player's Guides to
Thyatis (P.15) and to Alphatia (P.16).
It's better to be an Alphatian noble (aristocrat or higher) than to be any
sort of Thyatian, perhaps, but IMO it's far better to be a Thyatian
commoner (citizen or lower) than to be an Alphatian commoner (gentry or
lower) of equal station.
And that's the vast majority of the population.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:51:03 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
> Back to Esterhold, IMO slaves aren't really *needed* there either. The
<snpi> Just ask
>any Darokinian economist if slavery or free labour is of greater marginal
>utility, and they will tell you that free labour enriches a nation far more
>than slavery ever could.
I agree that they weren't needed, and they definitely were not the best idea
for long-term colonization, but I think we can safely assume that the kings
of Blackrock and Verdan always paid their taxes on time, and that was all
that Eriadna/the council cared about.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:01:24 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>And therefore at more or less the same latitude as England (well, maybe
>Scotland). That doesnt necessarily mean the place is a sheet of ice...
> Well - maybe Scotland :)
Esterhold is a bit farther north than Scotland, but not significantly. What
makes the biggest difference is that the British Isles benefit from a huge
warm water current in the Atlantic, whereas the location of the two kingdoms
on Esterhold, right up against the arctic ocean, means that there would be
no such warm-water benefits, and the climate is more likely to be comparable
to that of Earth's Arctic shores. Another thing that we are ignoring is the
arctic cold machine: on earth, Antarctica's huge, frozen mass has a
chilling effect on the seas for hundreds of miles away. No comparable
effect exists in the Arctic, because there is no land mass (although
Greenland causes a similar, but much smaller effect). However, on Mystara,
there is an Arctic land mass at the polar openings, so Esterhold is probably
even a bit cooler than 60ºN would be on Earth.
>Yeah, I noticed population problems as well. Also, something which has
>always got me - the Savage Coast has lots of extremes. Bellayne has about
>double the population of Renardy (I always imagined them as roughly equal)
<snip>
perhaps Bruce can explain the Savage Coast figures? Or were these simply
made up with the boxed set?
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:14:42 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Esterhold, a Nice Place for a Vacation
>The mere presence of such statements indicates that agricultural efforts
>are undertaken. No need for it to be "profitable", just marginally cheaper
>than growing food elsewhere and shipping it to Esterhold (saving on
>expenses, rather than producing income).
That's exactly what I meant. Sorry I wasn't more clear. But even if the
Blackrock farms produced enough to feed both colonies (which, personally, I
doubt), that only takes care of one kingdom. In Verdan, there are around
100,000 Jennite slaves with no agriculural or fishing abilities. At the
first hint of trouble, most of the Alphatian aristocracy living in Esterhold
probably packed up and moved to Bellissaria, Aquas, Ar, or wherever, so I
doubt that the Esterhold nations now have the naval capacity to ship food to
Faraway, even if the people of Blackrock wanted to. Initially, at least,
farm productivity in Blackrock probably dropped with emancipation, and
former slaves, finally able to eat as much of their produce as they wanted,
probably devoured any surplus. This spells serious trouble for Verdan.
> And I doubt the Alphatian slaveholders would have worked the fields
>themselves.
Perhaps they may have occasionally helped through magic, but who knows. If
they did, then the people of Esterhold are even worse off now than before.
>prefered, while the servile population had to make do with megre locally
>available foodstuffs (which would have been their traditional diet anyhow).
Actually, their traditional diets would have been herd animals, but I
understand your point. Personally, I believe that Esterhold would have
imported food, but there's no solid evidence either way.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:15:48 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
> I.E., Ukraine is arguably (well, not arguably: face it, it is) the best
>farmland in [I guess I'll just say "Russian areas". Grrrr. . .anyhow, you
>know the region].
Oop. A little nit to pick. Moldova had the most productive farmland in the
former USSR.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:26:39 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
><< If this is true, then the custom in Wendar is probably to mate for
> life, since the elves there have lived closely with humans for centuries.
> This could be another major source of tension in Wendar: thousands of
> urbane Alfheimers with no moral qualms about adultery loose in a nation
full
> of married elven country bumpkins. There must be quite a few angry
> Wendarian husbands and wives... >>
>
>Or vice versa? The humans of Wendar might not mate
>as they have learned it from the elves.
I understand what you mean, but in Glantri and Graakhalia, and perhaps in
Thyatis, the elves have adopted monogamous traditions, whereas there ar no
instances of the opposite occuring. On the Savage Coast, the elves have
thoroughly adopted the ways of the nations in which they live, which makes
me think that elven society adapts more easily to it's neighbors than does
human society. Also, as Fabrizio pointed out, there are elves (Shadow and,
I think, Icevale) who are monogamous, with no abvious human source for the
monogamy, so perhaps the Wendarian elves had been monogamous before the
Heldanners ever moved in.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:29:47 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>I'm sure, after a few years, and losses to their pop (not to mention
invasions
>by free Jennites on Skothar proper, who would want to "convert" the former
>slaves back to the old ways), the Jennites would say to the NACE, "Okay,
>former overlords, we need your help (ie. food and weapons), for which we
>will supply you with the minerals you want, BUT it is to be a fair trade.
>No food, no minerals."
Still, it's hard to drive a good bargain when you're starving to death. I
think Alphatia will be able to sell food *way* above market price, which
will mean lousy conditions for Esterholders.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #502
********************************
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mystara-digest Monday, July 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 503
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:30:53 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
>>>> should be exterminated if possible -- but there are a few enlightened
places
>>>> where orcs live with humans and demi-humans in peace.
>>
>And Glantri :)
I think the Erewan might beg to differ...
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:42:19 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
In a message dated 98-07-12 11:27:34 EDT, mrjohnson@videotron.ca writes:
> According to the Appendix, these are the only dragons that exist on Mystara.
> There are no other kinds. This is supported by the section on Dracologist
in
> the Glantri boxed set, but there are other products which seem to disupte
> this.
> PWA III, for example, has a bronze dragon that is prominent in the events
> section. So, I would suggest that if you want to include a Yellow dragon,
> just go ahead and do so.
That blanket statement about "no other dragons" on Mystara is obviously
false -- Mystara also has sea dragons,night dragons, and dragon rulers,
at least.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:42:32 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
In a message dated 98-07-12 18:16:46 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
> BTW: what's Glantri? A confederation of Principalities?
I would say more of a federation -- but keep in mind that a large
portion of Glantri, including Glantri City itself, is not part of any
Principality. So were it not for the large degree of autonomy
that prevails within each Principality, I would be inclined to regard
Glantri as a unitary state.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:42:31 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-12 17:54:52 EDT, herve@hotmail.com writes:
> Actually, I tend to think that the big power
> blocks are out of character for a fantasy setting, and that places like
> Hule, Thyatis and Alphatia are way too large. Historically, few empires
> were that large, and when such large empires came to be, they didn't
> last that long (though on Mystara, magic helps).
Well, two out of the three empires have now been cut down considerably
in size. Hule, I suppose, will remain unified until something happens to
the Master -- then I would expect that it should collapse into chaos.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:42:34 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-12 18:28:00 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> 1) Slaves generally do not reproduce in sufficient numbers to keep up with
> their losses (negative birth/death ratio); thus, you keep having to go out
> and gather more, which isn't usually a pleasant process.
While I would concur with your other points, are you sure about this one?
As I recall, United States did not suffer a shortage of slaves after the slave
trade (but not slavery itself) was outlawed -- and that had to have
drastically
cut down the number of slaves being imported.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:42:24 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs agrandizement)
In a message dated 98-07-12 15:48:40 EDT, eand@WPI.EDU writes:
> On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Geoff Gander wrote:
>
> > Yes! A new campaign setting from TSR! "Panglossia, the Land Where Nothing
> > Bad Ever Happens" :-)
>
> That would get old really fast :)
On the other hand, you could have a very interesting campaign where the
usual bad things do happen -- but government/society/public opinion
prohibit talking about them. Characters would really have to watch what
they say, and getting information from the locals would be a major challenge.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:42:35 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-12 18:42:05 EDT, megst19+@pitt.edu writes:
> After all, Americans still don't trust or respect monarchical
> societies for the most part (People magazine readers excluded).
That may have been true in the 18th and 19th century, but it is far
less true nowadays. Currently Britain is one of the best allies of
the United States. Anyway, given that most modern monarchies
are constitutional or limited monarchies, which monarchies are
really left for Americans to distrust? Dictatorships are another story
entirely -- what I am inquiring about are true hereditary monarchies
whose monarchs actually run the government. I would suspect
that nowadays such monarchies are relatively few and are relatively
insignificant in terms of power.
Okay -- whose king or queen did I just insult by accident?
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:08:14 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>entirely -- what I am inquiring about are true hereditary monarchies
>whose monarchs actually run the government. I would suspect
>that nowadays such monarchies are relatively few and are relatively
>insignificant in terms of power.
Oh, come on. Lesotho, Monaco, and Bruneii are major superpowers! What were
you thinking? :~)
At any rate, there are no significant monarchies of the traditional sort,
but the U.S. geneerally supports the few that exist, not because they
support monarchy, but rather because of some other use (i.e.,"better a
monarchy thancommunism," or perhaps "oh, you have oil? well, we're best
friends, remember?)
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:11:29 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
In a message dated 98-07-12 21:43:00 EDT,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes:
> I understand what you mean, but in Glantri and Graakhalia, and perhaps in
> Thyatis, the elves have adopted monogamous traditions, whereas there ar no
> instances of the opposite occuring.
There is one human culture that is documented as lacking an institution of
marriage -- that of Alphatia. Could they perhaps have been influenced by
Elves in the distant past?
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:29:49 EDT
From: Mystaros@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mystara Monstrous Manual Appendix Question
In a message dated 98-07-12 02:36:17 EDT, Patrick wrote:
<< I have a question for anyonw out there with the Monstrous Manual appendix:
What does it say, in brief, about dragons. I seem to remember someone
mentioning at some point that it says dragons have their normal AD&D law v.
chaos alignments, but were usually morally neutral? Also, does it give any
indication whether or not yellow dragons exist on Mystara?
Thanks >>
Being derived from OD&D, the types listed in the Mystara MC are the only
"official" types (though other types have been mentioned from time to time -
editorial mistakes, most likely). Thus, Yellow Dragons (whether the new or old
variations) would have no place on Mystara. However, as most of you all know,
I am hardly one for sticking exactingly to Mystara Canon, and IMC there are
several different branches of Dragon-types. The only true, native races of
Dragons are the Elder Dragons [Dracosauria] (huge, multi-headed saurial
creatures now relegated to the Hollow World) and their relatives, Hydras,
Dragon Turtles, Sea Dragons, etc. The second, now most-prevalent (in the Known
World) Dragon races are the Chromatics [Draconia Chromus], represented, of
course, by the Red, Green, Blue, White, and Black types, as well as the rarer
Purple, Yellow and Orange (from the Dragon Magazine articles), and the very
rare Spectral multi-headed race. Less common in the Known World region (due to
history more than lack of numbers) are the Metallic Dragons [Draconia
Nobilus], including the Gold, Bronze, Brass, Silver and Bronze, as well as the
rarer Quicksilver, Mercury and Iron types, and the very rare Platinum Dragons.
The fourth order of Dragonkind are the Gem Dragons [Dragonia], including the
Crystalline, Ruby, Sapphire, Jade, and Onyx, as well as the rarer Amber, all
Dragons originating from Elder Alphatia .The fifth order of Dragonkind, the
Elemental Dragons [Drakoia] include the Spirit, Earth, Air, Fire, Water and
Stone Dragons, as well as the rare Imperial, or Celestial Dragon; these are
the ancient Cyprian Dragons. Other various Dragon-like creatures are found on
my Mystara, including the Linnorms (an offshoot of the Elder Dragons), the
Night Dragons, and other, as yet-undiscovered Dragon breeds...
So basicaly, in answer to your question whether Yellow Dragons are found on
Mystara? Yes, of course they are... if YOU want them to be! As for their
alignment, if they are the Yellow Dragon of the Dragon Magazine articles, I
would say that they would Neutral on Mystara, the same as Blues, only slightly
more attuned to Evil, say, 10%/60%/30% 910% are Good, 60% are Neutral and 30%
are Evil with respect to ethical Neutrality). Greens born of Blue and Yellow
matings would therefore be Chaotic due to their being rejected by both Blue
and Yellow Dragons... and perhaps even more likely to be evil due to the lack
of Draconic socialization (say, 10%/30%/60%). If you are using the Yellow
Dragon from the Forgotten Realms (republished in the MM), I would say they are
most definitely ethically Chaotic, while morally leaning toward Neutrality,
and then Evil (10%/50%/40%). Note that both the Dragon Magazine Yellow Dragon
and the FR Yellow Dragon were created on the concept of "Primary Colors", yet
one was developed as a sea-going, marsh-dwelling Dragon and the other as a
desert-dwelling Dragon (which does, after a fashion, make more sense,
considering the habitat of Blues)!
Mystaros
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:32:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Agrandizing Alphatia (as if it needs
Fabrizio wrote:
>BTW: what's Glantri? A confederation of Principalities?
Glantri would be a confederation of semi-independent Principalities. I
say semi-independent because they all recognize common interests and are
willing to subvert some of their interests so that all can benefit -
though it's clear that what Boldavia wants might not be good for Aalban.
The way I see it, Glantri is a unified country on paper, with its
Parliament and other institutions, but in reality it's a unified nation in
name only during peacetime.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:41:41 EDT
From: Mystaros@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Order of the White Drake
In a message dated 98-07-12 14:45:25 EDT, Geoff Gander wrote:
<< Speaking of which, have we decided on a proper time frame for B3 (Palace
of the Silver Princess)? I would think that it should be not long after the
Spike Assault (960-970 AC), though you could modify things and run it in
the present day, saying that the character who was in the Order (can't
remember his name) has magical benefits of some kind and hasn't aged.
Well then, looks like another loose end might be close to resolution. :-)
Geoff >>
Check out my Gazetteer write-up of Haven, available on Shawns site. I placed
the events in B3 circa 960 AC... which fits right in with the conjecture on
the board... here's a snippet from that entry...
"In 960 AC the Palace in Haven Village was nearly destroyed; for a brief
period of time the entire realm was firmly grounded in the Prime Plane as the
conjunction between Haven and the Spirit Plane was overshadowed by the
conjunction between Haven and the Dimension of Nightmares. An Eye of Arik, one
of his many artifacts, was to blame, as it was used by the priest
Catharandamus to attempt to bring Arik's Avatar into the Prime Plane. The
crops withered, the cattle sickened, and the land was overrun by Goblins,
Hobgoblins and Orcs. A group of wandering adventurers brought an end to the
threat, and cast Catharandamus and his allies out of the land.
After rebuilding the Palace, Princess Argenta married Ellis the Pure, a Knight
of the Order of the White Drake from the Isle of Dawn [Ellis had no part in
the duplicity of the Order of the White Drake in the War of '59, and left the
Order when it's treachery was discovered]. Prince Ellis, now known as the
Black Knight (in mourning for his lost Order), guards Haven from any further
incursions from the Dimension of Nightmares; he often brings in adventurers
from elsewhere to send on missions to hunt down rumours of the followers of
Arik and other Nightmare beings. Princess Argenta still believes her father
may be alive; her Grandmother, Rowena, who appeared out of the mists of Faerie
during the time of Catharandamus, knew nothing of his whereabouts, and
Rowena's sponsor, Thendara (Ordana, an Immortal who works with the Sidhe-
Protectors), also could
not (or rather, would not) help her; thus, she seeks aid from adventurers who
would brave the Mists of Faerie. Catharandamus, now mad and decrepit, keeps
vigil at the Hectoliths, seeking some sign from his Patron Immortal. "
Mystaros
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:54:41 -0500
From: "E Gray" <grayhome@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
- -----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Sullivan <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>>entirely -- what I am inquiring about are true hereditary monarchies
>>whose monarchs actually run the government. I would suspect
>>that nowadays such monarchies are relatively few and are relatively
>>insignificant in terms of power.
>Oh, come on. Lesotho, Monaco, and Bruneii are major superpowers! What
>were you thinking? :~)
Well, the Sultan of Brunei is one of the world's richest men....right up
there
with Bill Gates really..
>At any rate, there are no significant monarchies of the traditional sort,
>but the U.S. geneerally supports the few that exist, not because they
>support monarchy, but rather because of some other use (i.e.,"better a
>monarchy thancommunism," or perhaps "oh, you have oil? well, we're best
>friends, remember?)
Or gambling in the case of Monaco. Americans will forgive anything for
a casino.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
KaviyD said:
>
>Okay -- whose king or queen did I just insult by accident?
You haven't offended us up in Canada, but we've been a friendly nation to
you guys for quite a while, and we're a constitutional monarchy. :-)
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:59:39 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
>
> I agree that they weren't needed, and they definitely were not the best
idea
> for long-term colonization, but I think we can safely assume that the
kings
> of Blackrock and Verdan always paid their taxes on time, and that was all
> that Eriadna/the council cared about.
>
Oh, I wasn't disputing that. As I said, slavery in general benifited the
(narrow class of) Alphatian aristocracy (not just Eriadna & the council),
so whether it was of the best long term benifit of the nation as a whole
was beside the point in their eyes. Likely, they just didn't think about it
(since, in their eyes, what was good for them was good for all Alphatia).
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:03:34 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographical Society
> Oop. A little nit to pick. Moldova had the most productive farmland in
the
> former USSR.
>
Moldova is in the general "steppelands" area, though; Ukraine, Moldova,
Valachia were almost always (some exceptions) dominated by the nomads I
mentioned (usually the same nomadic nation held sway over all the regions
in question, and points east).
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:05:27 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignmentsanyhow?
> >And Glantri :)
> I think the Erewan might beg to differ...
>
They are very standoffish, though, unwilling to get to love the new
diversity of Glantri.
*G*
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:14:07 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
>There is one human culture that is documented as lacking an institution of
>marriage -- that of Alphatia. Could they perhaps have been influenced by
>Elves in the distant past?
Could be. But I'd say it's more likely that a) it's a result of the fact
that their not quite humans, but rather aliens; or b) it's a result of their
culture, in which immortals (and, consequently, morality) are very
unimportant--the only thing that matters is the happiness of the nobility.
On the other hand, Volospin *was* married, so perhaps humans are more
flexible than I had imagined. But then again, Eriadna was married too,
wasn't she? Volospin and his wife were usually in different cities, so
perhaps there was something to Synn's little charade...
Still, I'd say in the case of Wendar marital attitudes would have to be
constant between elves and humans, otherwise the nation would have collapsed
in civil war years ago, IMHO.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:12:11 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> While I would concur with your other points, are you sure about this one?
> As I recall, United States did not suffer a shortage of slaves after the
slave
> trade (but not slavery itself) was outlawed -- and that had to have
> drastically cut down the number of slaves being imported.
>
I'm fairly certain about that one, at least from all I've read related to
the subject (admitedly, I'm not an expert on the economics of slavery, or
economics period: more of a dilatante, like I am on almost every other
subject I spout off about).
Usually the harsh conditions of slavery, combined with a high(er)
mortality rate, keeps the population below a self-supporting replacement
rate, thus the generally constant need to aquire new replacements (battle
captives in the ancient/classical world, slave trade in more recient times
[which was actually based on the same system, since that's how they were
aquired in Africa itself], etc.)
As for the specifics of the situation in the American South, I really
don't know. Perhaps someone more knowlegable can comment.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:18:04 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> You haven't offended us up in Canada, but we've been a friendly nation to
> you guys for quite a while, and we're a constitutional monarchy. :-)
>
You have? Gads, I must have been asleep when that change occured.
I always thought it was more of a "friendly rivalry" situation.
You know, the kind where you steal our (what is it you steal of ours? I've
forgotten. perhaps some of our ignorance), and we steal your Hockey teams.
8-)~
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
Patrick said:
>Still, it's hard to drive a good bargain when you're starving to death. I
>think Alphatia will be able to sell food *way* above market price, which
>will mean lousy conditions for Esterholders.
Sure, but I still maintain that they would be willing to put up with
hardship if it meant true independence. If they were somehow able to
obtain help in improving farming techniques (for example) for more
northern climates, they could possibly open up more land. Not much,
certainly not enough for export (but then again I don't think Esterhold
could ever become a net exporter of food - at best it could feed itself),
but enough to help them out. Another problem is communication - how do
you co-ordinate efforts to bring them out of their misery when they're
scattered over a huge peninsula?
Then again, the Jennites have lived in the area for centuries before the
Alphatians came, and they found a way to survive. It wasn't great, to be
sure, but they got by. Perhaps some of the newly-captured slaves, or
those who have not forgotten, could teach them the old ways again.
Assuming that they ousted the Alphatians, and succeeded, if I were to run
this scenario I wouldn't have them achieve self-sufficiency until at least
AC 1030-1040, and even then only in selected areas. There wouldn't be
anything like a modern "free" Jennite nation until AC 1070 or so, barring
any goodwill from others.
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>You have? Gads, I must have been asleep when that change occured.
Yeah, and we've even got TV and shopping malls, too. ;-)
> I always thought it was more of a "friendly rivalry" situation.
>You know, the kind where you steal our (what is it you steal of ours? I've
>forgotten. perhaps some of our ignorance), and we steal your Hockey teams.
>8-)~
Hmm - you steal our hockey teams and basketball (thinking about sports
here), but we flood you with our actors and newscasters, stealthily
influencing your popular culture, molding you to the way we wish you to be
- - muhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! All in jest, of course - why
wouldn't our actors want to stay in Canada? After all, we pay 'em a whole
$6.75/hr. Riches? Who needs it when you've got snowshoes and polar bears! :-)
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:34:54 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> Then again, the Jennites have lived in the area for centuries before the
> Alphatians came, and they found a way to survive. It wasn't great, to be
> sure, but they got by. Perhaps some of the newly-captured slaves, or
> those who have not forgotten, could teach them the old ways again.
>
Most folk (I.E. the Inuit) are pretty satisfied with their own way of life,
even if to the rest of us it seems rather stark/harsh.
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:45:51 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>You have? Gads, I must have been asleep when that change occured.
> I always thought it was more of a "friendly rivalry" situation.
>You know, the kind where you steal our (what is it you steal of ours? I've
>forgotten. perhaps some of our ignorance), and we steal your Hockey teams.
>8-)~
Is someone knocking my Coyotes? They were never happy in Winnipeg anyway!
This is very off-topic. I'll stop
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:49:09 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>Assuming that they ousted the Alphatians, and succeeded, if I were to run
>this scenario I wouldn't have them achieve self-sufficiency until at least
>AC 1030-1040, and even then only in selected areas. There wouldn't be
>anything like a modern "free" Jennite nation until AC 1070 or so, barring
>any goodwill from others.
I agree with everything you said up to that last sentence. Any nation that
exports food to Esterhold will have a vested interest in keeping the natives
ignorant of how to survive on their own. I don't think any nations will
step forward to help very much. Now perhaps a band of brave adventurers...
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:55:30 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
> Is someone knocking my Coyotes? They were never happy in Winnipeg
anyway!
> This is very off-topic. I'll stop
>
Actually, I was speaking of the former Nordiques {spelling=poor at best}.
Of course, since they never won a cup up there. . . .
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:01:41 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
In a message dated 98-07-13 00:26:55 EDT,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes:
> But then again, Eriadna was married too,
> wasn't she?
Was she? Given the information from DotE, the best I can say is that
she kept her affairs in order well enough that there was no uncertainty
as to the parternity of her children. But it seems to be a bit of a stretch
to go from that to saying that Alphatia had marriage customs similra to
any that we are familiar with.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:01:40 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-13 00:13:26 EDT, au998@freenet.carleton.ca writes:
> You haven't offended us up in Canada, but we've been a friendly nation to
> you guys for quite a while, and we're a constitutional monarchy. :-)
No problem there -- I think I already recognized the real world's many
constitutional monarchies in a previous post. And so far all of the
true non-constitutional monarchies have turned out to be minor powers
on the world scene. Somehow I suspect that on the issue of monarchies
vs. democracies we have indeed achieved a complete disconnection from
the real world.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:01:38 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In terms of true monarchies:
Lesotho, Monaco, and Brunei are exactly what I expected. None of them
are big enough to arouse any anti-monarchist sentiment elsewhere. Are
there any other non-constitutional monarchies in the real world that we
have still overlooked?
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Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:58:38 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Democracy Movements.
>
> I agree with everything you said up to that last sentence. Any nation
that
> exports food to Esterhold will have a vested interest in keeping the
natives
> ignorant of how to survive on their own.
>
With the possible exception of Skothian Jen.
> I don't think any nations will
> step forward to help very much. Now perhaps a band of brave
adventurers...
>
The universal solution to such problems (appropriately enough: after all,
this *is* a game where brave adventurers have the heroic impact).
Of course, all this talk is in the realm of pure theory at this point,
since the inhabitants of Esterhold will never be allowed to break free of
Alphatian control.
What's that O'Brien line? "A boot stomping on a human face, forever" I
think it is. . .
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #503
********************************
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mystara-digest Monday, July 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 504
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
[MYSTARA] - Online City
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
[MYSTARA] - Skothar
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Haven and the Silver Princess
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:02:08 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
>
> > But then again, Eriadna was married too,
> > wasn't she?
>
> Was she? Given the information from DotE, the best I can say is that
> she kept her affairs in order well enough that there was no uncertainty
> as to the parternity of her children. But it seems to be a bit of a
stretch
> to go from that to saying that Alphatia had marriage customs similra to
> any that we are familiar with.
>
That is correct. Eriadna wasn't married (Alphatian law doesn't recognize
marriage, though some get married anyhow, it [marriage] isn't really a part
of Alphatian custom).
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:05:46 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?)
>
> Lesotho, Monaco, and Brunei are exactly what I expected. None of them
> are big enough to arouse any anti-monarchist sentiment elsewhere. Are
> there any other non-constitutional monarchies in the real world that we
> have still overlooked?
>
Saudi Arabia would be one.
Jordan, arguably, but there are constitutional constraints (the King is
still the most significant figure in the government, however).
Kuwait (Emirate)
Quatar (?)
I think a couple of other smallish areas.
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Jordan (if you grant that) are the most important
ones, however.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:47:22 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
In a message dated 98-07-13 00:29:31 EDT, you write:
<< > While I would concur with your other points, are you sure about this one?
> As I recall, United States did not suffer a shortage of slaves after the
slave
> trade (but not slavery itself) was outlawed -- and that had to have
> drastically cut down the number of slaves being imported.
> >>
i have to back whoever posted the above. (never received the original
message). after the import of slaves was banned in the US, the population of
slaves actually increased. while a few slaves displayed tribal markings
(smuggled in) the bulk of the slaves were born in the states. coldly put,
slaves were a renewable resource. they were expensive and only the wealthy
could afford to own even a few of them. so "breeding" slaves was a neccesity
of sorts. not only did it replenish the owners own stock of slaves, it also
provided a means of added income. however, using the South as an example may
not be the wisest choice. imo the time period between the ban on bringing
slaves in and the ban on slavery period was too small to form a real picture
as to whether the US slave population was truly self sustaining in the long
run.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:57:43 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
In a message dated 98-07-13 01:11:57 EDT, you write:
<< > But then again, Eriadna was married too,
> wasn't she?
Was she? Given the information from DotE, the best I can say is that
she kept her affairs in order well enough that there was no uncertainty
as to the parternity of her children. But it seems to be a bit of a stretch
to go from that to saying that Alphatia had marriage customs similra to
any that we are familiar with. >>
well the way i handled it for Randel was easy. "marriage" was a term.
relationships were based on convenience. magists were hopping about from
partner to partner when they wanted. commoners tended to settle together more,
especially if children were in the equation. so it was more of a common law
type marriage with no ceremony. couples "shack up" together. if they are
comfortable with each other they stay together foras long as the relationship
is worth it. and take the king of randel (i have a king ruling circa AY2000).
he has three "wives" two live with him in the king's home.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:21:25 +0200 (EET DST)
From: Anias Pasi <a122286@students.cc.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
> > >Has anyone made a list of all the skills available for a Mystaran?
> > Pasi Anias wrote a comprehensive list of skills gleaned from all the
> > Gazetteers (and HWR and Creature Crucibles, too, I think) - I think it's
> > available on Shawn's site.
> Just checked it (thanks for the info! I feel like I wasted the 10 min. or
> so it took to write that up now. Guess I should've checked earlier to see
> if such a list had been done) and it's missing the HWR/HW boxed set
> skills, along with the DoTE stuff but it seems to list all the
> GAZ/Creature Crucible ones.
Just to note:
I Think it has all the skills from the GAZ's and Crucibles' but I wont
guarantee anything. It doesn't have skills from Hollow world, as I really
dont like it too much, nor do I own all the material to it.
And lastly, it has a lot of skills from other sources and from my head.
(like my favourite, the florist :)
The list was never ment to be a complete list of all skills, but rather a
usable list of some common skills. I hope it is of use for You.
Pasi // I wont be updating the list, so if anyone feels the urge, go
ahead...
- --
X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X
X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X
X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:32:14 -0500
From: Brunciak <brunciak@erols.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Online City
Hello!
I was just wondering what was going on with this idea of a detailed
city. Is it still a viable project or was it just a thought?
Bob
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:39:07 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>>Okay -- whose king or queen did I just insult by accident?
>
>You haven't offended us up in Canada, but we've been a friendly nation to
>you guys for quite a while, and we're a constitutional monarchy. :-)
>
>Geoff
Canada is a constitutional monarchy?
You learn something new every day.
Long Live the Queen!
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:45:44 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>That may have been true in the 18th and 19th century, but it is far
>less true nowadays. Currently Britain is one of the best allies of
>the United States.
Thats because Tony Blair and Bill Clinton are spawned from the same Spaarti
cylinder...
:)
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:54:39 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Skothar
>>And therefore at more or less the same latitude as England (well, maybe
>>Scotland). That doesnt necessarily mean the place is a sheet of ice...
>> Well - maybe Scotland :)
>Esterhold is a bit farther north than Scotland, but not significantly.
What
>makes the biggest difference is that the British Isles benefit from a huge
>warm water current in the Atlantic, whereas the location of the two
kingdoms
>on Esterhold, right up against the arctic ocean, means that there would be
>no such warm-water benefits, and the climate is more likely to be
comparable
>to that of Earth's Arctic shores.
Thats the Gulf Stream your talking about. There may well be an equivalent
for Esterhold, though. Certainly when Alphatia was still around there would
be sea currents eiher going north to south or south to north down the
eastern Alphatian coast, which may affect weather patterns on Esterhold.
(According to Panorama, currents often envelop large continents with
temperature differences across their length - like Alphatia).
With the loss of Alphatia there could well be major climatic changes due
to the shifting of sea currents. Probably for the colder, because Skothar
would then be isolated, pressed up against the Arctic.
I'm not entirely sure of Skotharian geography, so I may be thinking
Esterhold is more southerly than it is tho...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:53:03 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Geoff Gander wrote:
> KaviyD said:
> >
> >Okay -- whose king or queen did I just insult by accident?
>
> You haven't offended us up in Canada, but we've been a friendly nation to
> you guys for quite a while, and we're a constitutional monarchy. :-)
Yeah, it was awfully nice of you fellows to forgive that little invasion
thingy...
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:01:09 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
As a mage formerly of Alphatia, now living in Karameikos (nay, I shall not
reveal the specific locale lest the "Inquisitors" come inquiring...) I must
completely disagree with your assessment of us as "not actually human but
alien". We, sir, may be not of Mystara, but we are decidedly human. In fact,
we are a much higher state of human than your pitifu-
Er, ahem...
As to marriage...We DO marry. And there are those of us who put great stock in
it. But our wild and chaotic nature does give a bit of wanderlust to our
personalities...but you will see the occassion sop like that old general Torenal
who cling to the institution like calf clings to its mother's teat...
Patrick Sullivan wrote:
> >There is one human culture that is documented as lacking an institution of
> >marriage -- that of Alphatia. Could they perhaps have been influenced by
> >Elves in the distant past?
> Could be. But I'd say it's more likely that a) it's a result of the fact
> that their not quite humans, but rather aliens; or b) it's a result of their
> culture, in which immortals (and, consequently, morality) are very
> unimportant--the only thing that matters is the happiness of the nobility.
> On the other hand, Volospin *was* married, so perhaps humans are more
> flexible than I had imagined. But then again, Eriadna was married too,
> wasn't she? Volospin and his wife were usually in different cities, so
> perhaps there was something to Synn's little charade...
> Still, I'd say in the case of Wendar marital attitudes would have to be
> constant between elves and humans, otherwise the nation would have collapsed
> in civil war years ago, IMHO.
>
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:37:32 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> Canada is a constitutional monarchy?
>
> You learn something new every day.
>
Canada is still part of your Commonwealth, dude.
Sheesh; the Brits got so many satrapys they can't keep track of 'em all.
8-)~
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:17:40 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
>interesting scenario. but was not thincol's rise to power and life as
emperor
>not epic. wrath was thincol's swan song. his death may of been
mishandled but
>it does offer possibilities. imagine if you will that a story
circulates that
>thincol died heroically. insuring thyatis sovriegnty by foregoing his
own
>life. self sacrifice either being from a clause in the treaty with
alphatia
>and sealed with some spell to cause death. or the death could be
portrayed as
>a means to appease vanya to continue looking after the thyatian people.
>anything works. doesn't even have to be beleivable to all. good
propaganda
>rarely is factual.
>
Is he actually dead or merely gone upstairs to join the immortals? <;-P
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:23:51 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - SaveMystara!
>Well, that's a good point. The dude (Alex, my one of my favorite Thy
vs.
>Alph sparing partners) who said that the module (or whatever) should
have
>Mystaran names/a Mystaran flavor (though "generic"), which can then be
>altered by others (the way lots of "generic" stuff in the past had a FR
or
>Greyhawk "feel" to them which could then be infused, with some work,
with
>the proper feel for your own setting) also made an excellent point.
>
I know i`m still way behind due to my flu this weekend but I too give
this a resounding YES!
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:30:40 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>but a council also preserves its sovereign nature and keeps its actual
need
>for council participation to a minimum. however, imc (if it ever gets
>restarted and ventures past ac1001) i'd have thothia as having a great
deal of
>lobbying influence at council.
>
Hey maybe they`re trying to gain control without going to war! First you
get one seat, then you slowly enlarge your control until... <;-P
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:34:36 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - I don't like Karameikos
Everybody knew about Ludwig
>evilness, but Stefan... now, this is unbelievable.
>
You`ve got a world FULL of magic and can`t see why a non spellcaster
doesn`t respond as you expect! Well it could have been (really HUGE list
of potential subjects) who was responsible. <;-P
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:37:43 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
>> Also, its a sad fact of economics is that for every rich person
there
>>are many poor people. (Unless you reckon that Darokin can support
"lap of
>>luxury" living for their entire population). These poor Coppers are
most
>>likely very poor indeed.
>
>Not poorer than Glantrian farmers, people from Thyatis' lowest class,
>Karameikans of Traldaran birth...
>
IIRC start money for a Darokinian was always usual ammount or better
wasn`t it? so the standard of living is at least as good as elswhere.
then again I may be wrong
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:37:43 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Republic Darokin
>> Also, its a sad fact of economics is that for every rich person
there
>>are many poor people. (Unless you reckon that Darokin can support
"lap of
>>luxury" living for their entire population). These poor Coppers are
most
>>likely very poor indeed.
>
>Not poorer than Glantrian farmers, people from Thyatis' lowest class,
>Karameikans of Traldaran birth...
>
IIRC start money for a Darokinian was always usual ammount or better
wasn`t it? so the standard of living is at least as good as elswhere.
then again I may be wrong
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:43:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Brunciak wrote:
> I was just wondering what was going on with this idea of a detailed
> city. Is it still a viable project or was it just a thought?
Which idea was this? I don't remember a city Idea, but it sounds pretty
cool!
Max IV
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:30:03 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< >
> But they don't have the strength!
>
That is the kind of attitude that lead the North Vietnamese to meekly
accept that they could not prevail, and Ho Chi Min wisely decided not to
try to defeat America. . . . . . . . . . . . . >>
O.k., there is always the possibilty to beat an unbeatable foe,
but you see the point!
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:30:05 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< DotE states that everyone who can tries to be a magic-user, not because
clerics are looked down upon, but rather becuase Alphatians in general are
almost completel apathetic toward the Immortals. >>
When looking into WotI and PWAs it seems that since
AY 2000 the immortals had done some work of
missionizing in Alphatia.
One example? How can temples (<=plural) of Asterius
burn in Alphatia when he wasn't even worshipped in
AY 2000?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:38:11 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
- --
>> Canada is a constitutional monarchy?
>>
>> You learn something new every day.
>>
>Canada is still part of your Commonwealth, dude.
> Sheesh; the Brits got so many satrapys they can't keep track of 'em all.
>8-)~
:) I remember now. The Canadians always beat us in the Commonwealth
Games...
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:40:46 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> One example? How can temples (<=plural) of Asterius
> burn in Alphatia when he wasn't even worshipped in
> AY 2000?
>
Oh, he was worshiped. IMO, all the notable Immortals would have had
multiple Temples in Alphatia going back probably for as long as one could
remember.
However, that doesn't mean that becoming a Mage is first choice for an
aspiring Alphatian Aristocrat.
Also, just because the Aristocracy may (or may not) pay only delusory
attention to the Immortals, that doesn't mean that the common folk do not.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:58:47 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> >
> That is the kind of attitude that lead the North Vietnamese to meekly
> accept that they could not prevail, and Ho Chi Min wisely decided not to
> try to defeat America. . . . . . . . . . . . . >>
>
> O.k., there is always the possibilty to beat an unbeatable foe,
> but you see the point!
>
In my humble (oh, ok, ok: in the interests of honesty, let's start over:)
In my not-so-humble opinion, these are presicely the situations that make
for good adventure oportunities. The oportunity to go up against an
"unbeatable foe" and somehow achieve victory through determination and
guile. Or, from the Alphatian/NACE perspective, the oportunity to go up
against an (on paper) "weaker" but determined and crafty oponent who takes
all your "strengths" and somehow negates your otherwise natural advantages,
leaving you left to come up with creative new solutions of your own to foil
the foe.
But, that's just my idea personal of a ripping good adventure concept. I
could be wrong (heck, I also thought the Broderick=de Gaule, Esterhold=
Algeria analogy was a apt one, but no one agreed with me on that one,
either. *sigh*)
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dominique Rivard <tharquil@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Haven and the Silver Princess
- ---JamugaKhan@aol.com wrote:
> << Possible. Or it could be that Haven is the name of an ancient
Traladaran
> kingdom? >>
>
> Yes, but normally it's completely isolated from the rest of
> the world, so it doesn't matter anything.
Well it does matter if you want Haven to have an official History, not
to be just a lost kingdom where nobody there know about the outside
and about their own past. To be something like...
Somewhere, sometime:
DM: Well you've just destroyed the evil ruby and the princess is there
again...
A PC: Great, I ask her:"Wow 'mam, what a kingdom you have there! How
could it be that we never heard of it back in Mirros? And can you tell
us how this all begun?"
The Princess: "Euh, well we have a great immortal protecting us with
his hordes of servants and it's always been this way noble sir."
==
Tharquil's French D&D Homepage at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/5201
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:08:52 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> However, that doesn't mean that becoming a Mage is first choice for an
> aspiring Alphatian Aristocrat.
>
Grrrrr. . .syntax error.
Should have said ". . .that doesn't mean that becoming a mage *isn't* *the*
first choice. . . "
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:45:03 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-13 12:49:05 EDT, you write:
<< When looking into WotI and PWAs it seems that since
AY 2000 the immortals had done some work of
missionizing in Alphatia.>>
for randel, i handled it like this. immortals are not followed with nearly the
zeal that is seen elsewhere. randel citizens (mostly commoners) pay homage and
seek the good grace of immortals when circumstance calls for it. seafarers
salute protius while at sea. farmers ask for aid to terra at planting time and
offer thanks at harvest. got the romantic hots for someone, you offer a prayer
to valerias. so i guess it is a case of playing it safe.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:10:19 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
>IMO, and just IMO, Alphatian lower classes, slaves included, are as badly,
>or worse, treated as Thyatian slaves. Certainly, canon makes no real
>distinction. Thyatian "commoners" are at least Citizens, with legal rights
Actually, I remember DotE saying that Thyatian slaves are treated much
better than Alphatian ones, because enough slaves have achieved freedom and
risen to important positions (including Thincol himself), that they could
influence the treatment of slaves.
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website!
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #504
********************************
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mystara-digest Monday, July 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 505
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Skothar
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Faith and Pragmatism in Alphatian Religion.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
[MYSTARA] - Alphatian Judiciary
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographic Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:37:12 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Some thoughts on labour economics.
>
> Actually, I remember DotE saying that Thyatian slaves are treated much
> better than Alphatian ones, because enough slaves have achieved freedom
and
> risen to important positions (including Thincol himself), that they could
> influence the treatment of slaves.
>
(yes, but had I said that first. . .actually, I did end up saying much the
same thing, but had I said that first I believe people would have dismissed
it out of hand as coming from a Thyatophile).
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:45:55 -0500
From: "E Gray" <grayhome@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kaviyd@aol.com <Kaviyd@aol.com>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>In terms of true monarchies:
>
>Lesotho, Monaco, and Brunei are exactly what I expected. None of them
>are big enough to arouse any anti-monarchist sentiment elsewhere. Are
>there any other non-constitutional monarchies in the real world that we
>have still overlooked?
Saudi Arabia perhaps? They've got a monarchy with a ministers, all
of whom happen to be in the family..
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:17:47 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Skothar
>Thats the Gulf Stream your talking about. There may well be an equivalent
>for Esterhold, though. Certainly when Alphatia was still around there
would
>be sea currents eiher going north to south or south to north down the
>eastern Alphatian coast, which may affect weather patterns on Esterhold.
>(According to Panorama, currents often envelop large continents with
>temperature differences across their length - like Alphatia).
> With the loss of Alphatia there could well be major climatic changes
due
>to the shifting of sea currents. Probably for the colder, because Skothar
>would then be isolated, pressed up against the Arctic.
My guess, based on the large clamactic differences between Metro Alphatia
and the Yanniffeys is that the opposite was actually the case, a cold water
current running down Alphatia's eastern seabord, keeping the Yanniffeys in
the cold (something akin to the California Current, which keeps the Aleutian
Islands *very* cold and makes it uncomfortably cold at the Los Angeles
beaches even when it's 95ºF out).
You're right about the climactic disruption from Alphatia's sinking though.
Who knows what might happpen now? But even if a warm-water current appears
(after all, the warmth of the Gulf Stream originates in the Gulf of Mexico),
it won't help Verdan at all. Blackrock, perhaps, and definitely Port
Marlin, but Faraway is sheltered behind that big northern arm of the
peninsula. It should be purely arctic.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:51:13 EDT
From: RISPEN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
One of the first things I always do to brake a new party of this idea that
"all" of any race is good or evil is to run them up against my LG Paladin
order of Kobolds.
The other thing I do is let them pick thier alignment and basicly never look
at the alignment again.
What I do have them do is answer a few questions of how they plan to play the
PC, write a history, and if they follow an immortal that expects them to act a
certain way we put that in the write-up and then the player gets + or - XP
based on if he stays in character.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:51:11 EDT
From: RISPEN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
<<Rad..., as an Immortal surely he must have had some idea of what it could
ultimately do.>>
If memory serves, at the begging of WoTI Rad was still comming to terms as
being an immortal. That and never having a sponser to teach him its still
touch and go for him.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:51:07 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>When looking into WotI and PWAs it seems that since
>AY 2000 the immortals had done some work of
>missionizing in Alphatia.
The immortals aren't ignored, it's just that most Alphatians spend almost no
time worrying about them. There are temples in every town, but these are
really just places to go if you need to be healed or if you're a cleric. In
some ways, even Glantrians are more religious than Alphatians: everyone at
the Great School must perform daily rituals to Rad. It's not that there are
no churches in Alphatia, it's just that they don't play a significant role
in most lives.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:09:16 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Faith and Pragmatism in Alphatian Religion.
> the Great School must perform daily rituals to Rad. It's not that there
are
> no churches in Alphatia, it's just that they don't play a significant
role
> in most lives.
>
Again, I somewhat disagree. . .I guess I'm midway between Jamuga's opinion
on this and yours: I think you are right in the respect that most Alphatian
Aristocrats and higher (unless they are Clerics themselves, which a fair
portion are), and probably most Gentry as well, have this attitude.
However, for the common subjects and slaves (there are no "citizens" per
se in Alphatia), devotion to the Immortals might be quite prominent in
their lives.
Thus, "religious superstition" is something for the "ignorant masses," and
the higher you go up the social ladder such beliefs play a decreasing role
in people's lives (lip service is paid).
Perhaps that is even the case with *some* Clerics, for whom devotion to
their Immortal plays a less important role in their lives than, say,
devotion to a political or other "cause" (I can think of several modern
religious denominations where this is the case among even many clergy); the
prayers to the immortal being more of a matter of pragmatic
nessessity/exchange (I worship you and lead these ignorant masses to
believe in you, and in turn you power my spells); a kind of "deal"
(many players have this attitude, so why not their characters? For lots of
players, what Immortal or God their priest selects is more a matter of
pragmatic assessment of the "benifits" of worshiping that immortal. Not
*always* the case, but fairly often. Alphatian priests might have this
attitude, and Immortals may be willing to get what they can. . .for now).
And this might lead into Jamuga's point: perhaps just prior to, around,
and after the WotI events, devotion to Immortals have taken an upswing, and
Immortals may have begun demanding (and eventually recieving) more true
faith from their priests, over time, perhaps, Alphatia will become a more
religious place.
But not overnight (and 10+ years is "overnight" for such a monumental
change).
Hmmmn. . .or perhaps not. A religious "Awakening" in Alphatia?
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:12:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is "evil", and do we need Alignments anyhow?
>
> The other thing I do is let them pick thier alignment and basicly never
look
> at the alignment again.
> What I do have them do is answer a few questions of how they plan to play
the
> PC, write a history, and if they follow an immortal that expects them to
act a
> certain way we put that in the write-up and then the player gets + or -
XP
> based on if he stays in character.
>
This is the kind of direction I think the game as a whole should go in,
away from fixed "Alignments" and more towards characterization & role
playing, with selection of patron dieties and/or immortals serving to some
degree to anchor a character's virtues (and vices), along with general
personality.
That, IMO, would alow more realistic evolution of characters, as well,
whereas often when there are "changes" they are embodied in a sharp change
in alignment, rather than personality changes over time (often, but not
nearly always).
Some other way of retaining the architypical Paladin (other than "they are
always Lawful Good"), based on Chivalric codes and the code outlined in the
Book of Paladins, could be developed.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:20:56 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
<< Thus, slavery is of benificial utility and enrichment to selective classes
in a society ("they are just a facility so the wizards don't have to do
menual tasks with their magics but instead use their magic for their own
fun, but they could do it most of what they assign to their slaves with
cantrips and such, and the crops are tended by commoners"), but a drag on
the socioeconomy of the society & nation as a whole.
In the long run market economies with free labour are much more enriching
to a country as a whole, while various methods of unfree labour (slavery,
serfdom, etc) are not nearly as efficient. >>
This might be the reason that the slavery was decreasing in Alphatia
in the last years.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:21:23 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
|
v
<< But our wild and chaotic nature does give a bit of wanderlust to our
personalities...but you will see the occassion sop like that old general
Torenal
who cling to the institution like calf clings to its mother's teat... >>
Hey, another German word in the English language?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:21:19 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Judiciary
<< IMO, and just IMO, Alphatian lower classes, slaves included, are as badly,
or worse, treated as Thyatian slaves. Certainly, canon makes no real
distinction. Thyatian "commoners" are at least Citizens, with legal rights
(in a much better legal code than the horrendous Alphatian one), and any
Thyatian can, in theory and in practice, rise by merit (and guile) to any
level in society. >>
Interesting is that there is some discrepancies between the description
and the written laws in the "Dawn of Emperors". It's said that the High
Justice give the nobles more rights than the Low Justice to the
commoners. O.k., a look at both affirmes that!
But it is said too, that the Alphatain Justice works very well
with nearly no errors. That means that a nobleman who has
murdered a commoner will be catched nearly for sure.
The usual punishment is a payment of the court fees and
the cost of magically/medically restoring of the victim to
the heirs, MULTIPLIED WITH 100 !!!
That means, the noble murderer has to pay enough that
the heirs can convince a cleric to raise back their relative
and they would have to pay only 1 percent for that.
An example: A wizard kills one of his servants, the
constables catch him for that, he get a sentence, and the
servant will live again and he and his family will have so
much money that they could raise to the level of gentry.
With these facts every wizard will have to think twice
before committing a murder. IMHO this is not exactly the
situation described in DoE, where Alphatian nobles walk
around and kill commoners and foreigners casually.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:21:21 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
<< Okay -- whose king or queen did I just insult by accident? >>
Not mine as I don't have one, but don't forget the kings of
Marocco and Saudi-Arabia, the Sultan of Brunei and some
other.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:21:20 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
<< I understand what you mean, but in Glantri and Graakhalia, and perhaps in
Thyatis, the elves have adopted monogamous traditions, whereas there ar no
instances of the opposite occuring. On the Savage Coast, the elves have
thoroughly adopted the ways of the nations in which they live, which makes
me think that elven society adapts more easily to it's neighbors than does
human society. Also, as Fabrizio pointed out, there are elves (Shadow and,
I think, Icevale) who are monogamous, with no abvious human source for the
monogamy, so perhaps the Wendarian elves had been monogamous before the
Heldanners ever moved in. >>
How boring!
I demand the other extreme, that the humans in Wendar have
taken over the Elven customs...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:21:31 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> But, that's just my idea personal of a ripping good adventure concept. I
>could be wrong (heck, I also thought the Broderick=de Gaule, Esterhold=
>Algeria analogy was a apt one, but no one agreed with me on that one,
>either. *sigh*)
Of course! A nation that *really* hates Alphatia can go in and convert the
Jennites and convince them to unite and throw off their Alphatian
oppressors. it would have to be a country that's used to trying to make
very poor soil produce crops, and they would have to have a religion that
lends itself to fanaticism--Ylaruam!
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:21:22 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographic Society
<< There is one human culture that is documented as lacking an institution of
marriage -- that of Alphatia. Could they perhaps have been influenced by
Elves in the distant past? >>
This might be possible, but perhaps not.
OTOH there are some interesting consequences:
DoE says that slave marrying a king remains a slave,
but of course her husband can promote her to gentry
via the usual way.
But what if the king marries an aristocrat?
He can promote her to lady but then it would be
difficult. He could find a king of queen willing to adopt
her, so that she would became a princess. He might even
do that by himself. O.k., this would mean that his wife were
his adopted daughter, but it were a politically fiction and
Alphatians are a strange bunch nonetheless. (Hi, Woody Allen!)
Finally he could try to make her ruler of a kingdom. This
could be his own kingdom like Limn which has both a queen
and a king but this might cannot be removed so most rulers
wouldn't do that.
Finally I want to remark that General Torenal perhaps was
married to Eriadna, but he wouldn't have be more than a gentry.
Jamuga Khan
P.S.: Has anybody read my little story about Thincol and Torenal?
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:38:07 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
At 18.26 12/07/98 -0700, Patrick Sullivan wrote:
>human society. Also, as Fabrizio pointed out, there are elves (Shadow and,
>I think, Icevale) who are monogamous, with no abvious human source for the
>monogamy, so perhaps the Wendarian elves had been monogamous before the
>Heldanners ever moved in.
>
Side note: Shadow Elves may have taken those marriage customs from
Blackmoorians or they may have been instructed by their patron Rafiel, a
human from Blackmoor in his mortal life.
- --------------
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
- --------------
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:51:43 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?)
At 00.05 13/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>> Lesotho, Monaco, and Brunei are exactly what I expected. None of them
>> are big enough to arouse any anti-monarchist sentiment elsewhere. Are
>> there any other non-constitutional monarchies in the real world that we
>> have still overlooked?
>>
>Saudi Arabia would be one.
>Jordan, arguably, but there are constitutional constraints (the King is
>still the most significant figure in the government, however).
>Kuwait (Emirate)
>Quatar (?)
>
>I think a couple of other smallish areas.
>Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Jordan (if you grant that) are the most important
>ones, however.
Vatican City :-)
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:51:08 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>
> This might be the reason that the slavery was decreasing in Alphatia
> in the last years.
>
Where in the Canon does it say that?
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:15:42 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< It's not that there are
no churches in Alphatia, it's just that they don't play a significant role
in most lives. >>
OTOH this probably means that Alphatian clerics are more
interested in personal or political might than missionizing the
unbelievers. But this should be true for most Thyatian clerics
too, as we have examples of clerics in the army/navy.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:15:37 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< But, that's just my idea personal of a ripping good adventure concept. I
could be wrong (heck, I also thought the Broderick=de Gaule, Esterhold=
Algeria analogy was a apt one, but no one agreed with me on that one,
either. *sigh*) >>
Perhaps it would be more Northe Vietnam against USA,
but without Russian weapons, or Afghanistan against USSR
without American weapons...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:15:34 EDT
From: JamugaKhan@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
<< Oh, he was worshiped. IMO, all the notable Immortals would have had
multiple Temples in Alphatia going back probably for as long as one could
remember. >>
According to DoE not as he wasn't on the list of Alphatian Immortals.
<< However, that doesn't mean that becoming a Mage is first choice for an
aspiring Alphatian Aristocrat.
Also, just because the Aristocracy may (or may not) pay only delusory
attention to the Immortals, that doesn't mean that the common folk do not. >>
Again DoE said the contrary. I wasn't too happy with that statement though.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:52:22 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Again DoE said the contrary. I wasn't too happy with that statement
though.
>
You have to remember (and this goes for the statements on the wonders of
the Alphatian legal system, too) that the Player's Guides to both Alphatia
& Thyatis are written from the point of view of "the establishment", not
written from an unbiased and omnicient perspective.
Thus, the views of the Alphatian "establishment" are the ones that are
infused in the Player's Guide, and, IMO, they figure that the Alphatian
subjects ape their own attitudes in every way possible (re-enforced by the
fact that the commoners that they know socially, as opposed to servants et
al, are the ones that are "co-opted" into the system most effectively, and
who conform to upper class ettiquette).
Factual stuff (what the legal code actually is, the hierarchy of social
classes, and game mechanics) can be taken at face value, but one should,
IMO, be somewhat wary of the other stuff (adjectival stuff, editorializing,
etc), in *both* the Player's Guides (by and large the Alphatian one is more
"accurate", but it still is written from the perspective and attitude of
the Alphatian establishment).
Such folks, IMO, would not have bothered to familiarize themselves with
the "worthless" thoughts and beliefs of the slave and servator classes.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:54:13 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Perhaps it would be more Northe Vietnam against USA,
> but without Russian weapons, or Afghanistan against USSR
> without American weapons...
>
Except who knows who might ship weapons to Esterhold (Skothian Jen could
easily smuggle them in, Minean pirates, and other folks out for the main
chance/without scruples (Norlan) or who "have it in" for NACE (Ylaruam
having already been mentioned by someone).
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 01:30:39 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>> Perhaps it would be more Northe Vietnam against USA,
>> but without Russian weapons, or Afghanistan against USSR
>> without American weapons...
>>
>Except who knows who might ship weapons to Esterhold (Skothian Jen could
>easily smuggle them in, Minean pirates, and other folks out for the main
>chance/without scruples (Norlan) or who "have it in" for NACE (Ylaruam
>having already been mentioned by someone).
Thing is, weapons arent so relevant. In the RW technology can be used by
anyone (Vietnamese could easily get their hands on some M-16s or AK-47s, and
be just as dangerous as an American with them), and those weapons can pack a
mighty punch.
With magic rather than technology providing the decisive punch, the
situation is different. Magic, unlike technology, is not available to the
masses (If the Jennites are such nomads, their "mages" are probably limited
to a smattering of wokani) and there is no real way to increase the Jennite
magical capabilities (you cant just give each guy a spellbook like you could
give all the Vietnamese an AK47).
The Jennites would have to use more sneaky, underhand tactics. Maybe
the Alphatians would be unprepared for guerilla warfare (the Americans
certainly were). However - I always thought that the Jennites were always
fighting among themselves (thanks to Tarastias "revenge" influence) with
feuds between families that last for generations. If this is so, the
Jennites would have a hard time providing a united front against the
Alphatians.
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:13:29 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> The Jennites would have to use more sneaky, underhand tactics.
>
Which was what I was proposing; oportunities for epic heroism and crafty
deviousness. But, since it is a given that the Jennite version of Winston
is already conditioned to Love Big Brother, then I guess their isn't any
hope among the proles.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:22:24 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>Perhaps it would be more Northe Vietnam against USA,
>but without Russian weapons, or Afghanistan against USSR
>without American weapons...
I don't see it as this at all. NACE is not an imperial power sending troops
into a completely foreign land, they are a colonial power fighting to keep a
stranglehold on their colonies on Esterhold, much like European powers in
Africa this century or Spain in South America 150 years ago. Now all the
Jennites need is Bolivar.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:24:39 -0500
From: "Thrydmon" <kmelby@skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
>In a message dated 98-07-09 13:59:18 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
>
>> The AD+D method is definitely better - available to all, but dangerously
>> taxing to cast.
>
>One nitpick -- AD&D also requires an intelligence of 18+ to cast a Wish
spell
>because all 9th level spells require that level of intelligence. However,
>AD&D
>has no level requirement for Wish (unlike D&D which requires the character
>to be of level 33+) -- in AD&D, any Mage of sufficient level to cast 9th
level
>spells can learn and cast Wish -- ditto for any Specialist Wizard to whom
>this spell is not barred.
Here's something for everyone to think about with the Wish issue. IMC (and
friends campaigns), the Wish spell, although being a powerful spell, is
actually hard to come by. If you were to be realistic about it, most
fantasy settings DO NOT have a huge number of high level mages. This would
limit the copies of the Wish spell to just a few of these really powerful
mages, because mages in general are stingy, or some people might like the
term "very cautious", with giving another mage access to the power and
dangerous spells that they have learned over some time.
Thrydmon the Wanderer,
humble mage of Karameikos
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #505
********************************
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mystara-digest Tuesday, July 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 506
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals: presence in various lands.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographic Society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Question on level
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is
Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level
Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City
Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
Re: [MYSTARA] - The name
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:25:03 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>OTOH this probably means that Alphatian clerics are more
>interested in personal or political might than missionizing the
I agree with this point.
>unbelievers. But this should be true for most Thyatian clerics
>too, as we have examples of clerics in the army/navy.
Well, Thyatis has tried for years to increase its clerical power as a way to
counteract Alphatia's obvious magical superiority. But I think that
churches in Thyatis are generally more active in day-to-day life than in
Alphatia. After all, a large following of the most popular religion in the
empire got kicked out of Thyatis not too long ago!
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:42:51 EDT
From: RISPEN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - General Skills Composite List
<<..."Spelunking"...
Anyone else do this?
Max IV>>
all the time
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:17:35 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Immortals: presence in various lands.
One thing to note about lists of Immortals for various realms (I.E.
Alphatia, Thyatis) is that they don't seem to be exclusive lists.
I.E. the listed Immortals are the most prominent, but others might also be
present ("Among the few Immortals studied in Alphatia are" [P.15, Player's
Guide to Alphatia] "Some of the Immortals studied and worshiped in the
Empire include" [P.12, Player's Guide to Thyatis]).
Especially in heavily populated lands, other Immortals may have a
presence, including several temples in various areas (however, largely
overshadowed by the "major" faiths).
Also, one has to admit, however reluctantly, that canon is, um. . . .not
always very internally consistant.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:13 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Modern Monarchies (Oxymoron?)
In a message dated 98-07-13 17:57:53 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
> At 00.05 13/07/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>
> >> Lesotho, Monaco, and Brunei are exactly what I expected. None of them
> >> are big enough to arouse any anti-monarchist sentiment elsewhere. Are
> >> there any other non-constitutional monarchies in the real world that we
> >> have still overlooked?
> >>
> >Saudi Arabia would be one.
> >Jordan, arguably, but there are constitutional constraints (the King is
> >still the most significant figure in the government, however).
> >Kuwait (Emirate)
> >Quatar (?)
> >
> >I think a couple of other smallish areas.
> >Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Jordan (if you grant that) are the most
important
> >ones, however.
>
> Vatican City :-)
Saudi Arabia would be the largest absolute monarchy in the world -- and it
is certainly not an insignificant player on the world scene, so my apologies
to any Saudis on this list.
Of course the Vatican City certainly would not qualify as a hereditary
monarchy
- -- the Pope is elected for life by and from the College of Cardinals. And we
could make the case that the Pope's powers are actually limited, even though
no document spells out those limitations -- but there are quite a few things
that an absolute monarch could do that I really cannot picture any 20th
century Pope attempting. On the other hand, his power really has little to
do with that tiny piece of land that is his "kingdom".
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:04 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
In a message dated 98-07-13 09:10:57 EDT, jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
> As to marriage...We DO marry. And there are those of us who put great
> stock in it. But our wild and chaotic nature does give a bit of wanderlust
> to our personalities...but you will see the occassion sop like that old
general
> Torenal who cling to the institution like calf clings to its mother's
teat...
I stand corrected -- after looking at DotE I see that Alphatians do indeed
marry. However, since Alphatia attaches absolutely no legal significance
to marriage and thus all one would have to do to get a divorce is leave
one's spouse.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:22 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Geographic Society
In a message dated 98-07-13 17:44:25 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes:
> DoE says that slave marrying a king remains a slave,
> but of course her husband can promote her to gentry
> via the usual way.
That is in the Thyatian book. In the Alphatian book, it specifically
says that marriage does not promote the lower class partner in
any way. I would infer from this reference that all Alphatian
marriages are "common law" marriages -- they have no social
sanction and can be dissolved by one partner moving out of
the residence of the other partner.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:11 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> > But they don't have the strength!
> >
> That is the kind of attitude that lead the North Vietnamese to meekly
> accept that they could not prevail, and Ho Chi Min wisely decided not to
> try to defeat America. . . . . . . . . . . . . >>
But any nation has a tremendous advantage when it is fighting at home
(against a foe that does not know the area well) and is willing to take
tremendous losses. However, it would be hopeless for an oppressed
minority population to conquer their oppressors if the oppressors have
them outnumbered and outgunned. Escape them, maybe -- but conquer
them, no.
So what does this mean for Mystara? Well, a Jennite revolt in Esterhold
could succeed -- the Jennites would have the advantage in numbers and
suffer no disadvantage in terms of local area knowledge. If they keep
fighting long enough, the Alphatians might well decide to cut their losses
and leave Esterhold.
However, a slave revolt in Alphatia proper would be doomed to failure,
as the slaves there would be outnumbered by the Alphatians, who would
rally to defend their homes.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:20 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wendarian Elven Marriage Customs
In a message dated 98-07-13 17:44:04 EDT, JamugaKhan@aol.com writes:
> How boring!
>
> I demand the other extreme, that the humans in Wendar have
> taken over the Elven customs...
Okay, we can always say that marriages are for 50-100 years.
That would allow Elves to have multiple partners but would
effectively make most human marriages "for life".
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:18 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-13 17:42:06 EDT,
Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net writes:
> Of course! A nation that *really* hates Alphatia can go in and convert the
> Jennites and convince them to unite and throw off their Alphatian
> oppressors. it would have to be a country that's used to trying to make
> very poor soil produce crops, and they would have to have a religion that
> lends itself to fanaticism--Ylaruam!
On the other hand, Ylaruam hates Thyatis even more, so they will probably
stay out of that one. On the other hand, what about Hule? They do have
the necessary hatred of Alphatia to get the job done.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:25:15 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
In a message dated 98-07-13 13:24:34 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> But, that's just my idea personal of a ripping good adventure concept. I
> could be wrong (heck, I also thought the Broderick=de Gaule, Esterhold=
> Algeria analogy was a apt one, but no one agreed with me on that one,
> either. *sigh*)
I liked that idea, but I had nothing to add to it -- so I said nothing. It is
the
very nature of this mailing list that you will get more replies that disagree
with you than agree, even if most of the list members either agree with
you or have no opinion on the subject.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:02:36 +0200
From: Christian Gotschi <ChristianG@vircom.co.za>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Question on level
What do you people think the level/class breakdowns for mystara are?
That is, out of (lets say) 1 000 000 people
How many are NH
How many are 1st level
How many are 2nd level
...
How many are 36th level (remember we need 1000 36th level MU in
Alphatia, MU ha ha ha ha)
and
how many are MU
how many are F
...
This may change with different countries but it would also be
interesting overall to see what results we could get for the NW.
Christian Götschi
mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za
Developer at Vircom
http://www.vircom.co.za
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:15:34 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>>Perhaps it would be more Northe Vietnam against USA,
>>but without Russian weapons, or Afghanistan against USSR
>>without American weapons...
>I don't see it as this at all. NACE is not an imperial power sending
troops
>into a completely foreign land, they are a colonial power fighting to keep
a
>stranglehold on their colonies on Esterhold, much like European powers in
>Africa this century or Spain in South America 150 years ago. Now all the
>Jennites need is Bolivar.
Ghandi?
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:13:27 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
- -->> The Jennites would have to use more sneaky, underhand tactics.
>>
>Which was what I was proposing; oportunities for epic heroism and crafty
>deviousness. But, since it is a given that the Jennite version of Winston
>is already conditioned to Love Big Brother, then I guess their isn't any
>hope among the proles.
Winston? Your tempting me, now...
Maybe he's Chamberlain?
Cheerz
ROB
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:10:15 -0700
From: "Patrick Sullivan" <Dennis.Sullivan.Family@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>Ghandi?
I thought about that, but Ghandi's success was based primarily on the fact
that worldwide opinion left the British no choice but to pull out of India.
I'm not sure whether someone could pull off the same feat on Mystara, with
its limited communications. Not to mention the fact that Alphatia is
relatively unconcerned with international opinion. But it would certainly
be interesting.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:37:20 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
>>> Canada is a constitutional monarchy?
>>>
>>> You learn something new every day.
>>>
>>Canada is still part of your Commonwealth, dude.
>> Sheesh; the Brits got so many satrapys they can't keep track of 'em
all.
>>8-)~
>
>
>:) I remember now. The Canadians always beat us in the Commonwealth
>Games...
>
As a side issue is your constitution Brir style or Yank style? Brit is
constitution limits power of monarchy (well that`s the only bit thats
actuallywritten down) whereas Yank one actually empowers the citizens.
It`s a BIG difference and makes for interesting gameplay if used where
applicable
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:44:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Thyatis, Mystara, and the tone of the World
> Actually, King Azoun has participated in numerous wars: the Crusade
against
> Tuigans, the defeat of Gondegal the Lost King, the war against
Scardale, the
> conquest ("annexation") of Tilverton, etc. Not to mention his
extensive
> adventuring career while he was still a prince.
>
Oh god! I hate to have to saythis but it seems that I`ve besmirched
the name of the FR. I claim leniency though because I was misinformed.
Well actually they were talking FR so I sort of zoned out (seems to do
that to me) and must have only gotten this erroneous tidbit. Never
mind it`s still NOT as good as MYSTARA! Then again few things are!
Please feel free to place you own choices in the list as I don`t want
any arguements over wether being slapped by a wet kipper is better.
<;-P
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:50:36 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
> clerics are looked down upon, but rather becuase Alphatians in general
are
> almost completel apathetic toward the Immortals. >>
>
In general, so about 10-15% will be bothered? thats actually quite a
large number of people isn`t it? even one tenth of that is still enough
to have interest. Say on average 1 cleric per 50 followers (just a
figure from the air). As can bee seen curently by the rantings of one
such evil git in Northern Ireland there power can be quite apparent.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:57 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Who is
> Some other way of retaining the architypical Paladin (other than "they
are
>always Lawful Good"), based on Chivalric codes and the code outlined in
the
>Book of Paladins, could be developed.
>
Those rules give for Alignment types in Palladium would probably come in
handy too. You know Never harm an innocent etc. Just because it`s NOT
D&D(either) doesn`t mean that it`s got relevence (I hope that there`s
not too many negatives in that. Iget confused sometimes) <;-P
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:23:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Alphatian Greatness and Thyatian Withering
Paul Dooley wrote:
>As a side issue is your constitution Brir style or Yank style? Brit is
>constitution limits power of monarchy (well that`s the only bit thats
>actuallywritten down) whereas Yank one actually empowers the citizens.
>It`s a BIG difference and makes for interesting gameplay if used where
>applicable
>
Well, I'll have to check, but from what I do know off the top of my head
(the part I studied), a fair portion of our constitution outlines the
duties of the federal and provincial governments, but there are also
sections on rights (the Bill of Rights, which is actually a separate
document, which followed our constitution by about 100 years), the role of
the Queen (this would be the Brit element), and other elements that I
can't remember right now.
What struck me as interesting about the whole thing is that, in the
Canadian constitution, no mention is ever made about the right to own
property. It's a convention, but technically I don't have the right to
own anything. :-) I found this interesting.
Perhaps the best summary of the constitution is it's statement of
principle. In the US (IIRC) it's "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Happiness". In Canada, it's "Peace, Order, and Good Government."
Geoff
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:26:08 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level
>That is, out of (lets say) 1 000 000 people
>How many are NH
>How many are 1st level
>How many are 2nd level
>...
IIRC there`s a table in High lvlCampaigns that has this info for
`standard` campaigns. I`ll post it next time. As for the mages there`ll
be way too many for the population, but they could all be from earlier
populations that they`ve outlived.
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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:33:52 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Online City
>Which idea was this? I don't remember a city Idea, but it sounds pretty
>cool!
>
Yes, I proposed this idea some time ago, but it died down pretty soon.
Basically, it would mean that members of the MML would detail a single city
(like some other lists are doing). Selenica was the most popular choice
IIRC, due to its cultural intermingling. So shall we do it? (we will need a
website to collect the material)
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website!
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:38:26 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Timeline junk: chinks in Alphatia
>
> Winston? Your tempting me, now...
> Maybe he's Chamberlain?
>
Bah! People don't even know the liturature of their own writters!
It was a Ninteen Eighty Four reference, which IMO is perfect for Alphatia.
Heh, I can think of several O'Brien's right here on this mailing list.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:44:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Question on level
> >...
> IIRC there`s a table in High lvlCampaigns that has this info for
> `standard` campaigns. I`ll post it next time.
>
Yah, I've seen various versions of that, including the one in DMO:HLC, but
these charts are fairly useless for published worlds (such as Mystara),
since TSR never follows their own demographic advice (there are way more
high level dudes in Mystara, or FR, or whatever other published world you
can mention, than one would predict from such demographic tables).
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> :) If its the EU then there would be much lively internal debate...
>
> Says the guy from England, where the general public arent exactly
fans of
> the EU.
>
Then again some of us can see racist TORY propaganda when we see it!
Basically the general public believes what they`re told to believe,
use of the media for such is a very longstanding tradition. Back to
Mystara, though the same still applies. Characters become `heroic`
only if that`s the way they`re represented to the public. This is
actually quite a problem at the high levels of play as in order to
keep the threat level you have to resort to non public actions for or
against PC`s. eg assassinations, planar travel etc. This leads to the
supposition that many `retired` adventurers are actually still in the
game but it`s the `Great Game` rather than a visit to beat up the
nearest orc.
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:05:39 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> >
> Then again some of us can see <sniped rant>
>
If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
game-related (like I do *grin*)
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Wishes - it has started...
> I once had a PCs with a ring of Wish and he used to write down his
wish on
> a piece of paper, correct it several times and then hand it over to
me :-)
>
Nope. Get the written version and also get themto say what they want.
Pay very close attention to stressing of words and syntax used because
this can totally alter the WISH! Best use of this I`ve seen recently
was during a commune. The rest of the party worded the questions and
even wrote them down only to have the cleric bugger it up by
rephrasing. Which changed the question totally, then he did it again,
and again,and again.The GM nearly wet himself at our frustration as he
answered the question given not the intended question
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
> game-related (like I do *grin*)
>
But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
> game-related (like I do *grin*)
>
But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
> game-related (like I do *grin*)
>
But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:57:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
> game-related (like I do *grin*)
>
But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cptn. Stardust" <ezaqwazy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name "NACE"
> If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
> game-related (like I do *grin*)
>
But I did didn`t I there was some game opinion after my ranting
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:03:51 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The name
>If you're going to engage in an ad homenem attacks, please make it
>game-related (like I do *grin*)
>
Damn I thought I had after the rant. so this week HOTMAIL have not only
lost my addressbook and six days of postings but also are snipping my
mail as it`s sent. time to get a new email methinks <;-P
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #506
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