mystara-digest Tuesday, September 8 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 608
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark columns
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
[MYSTARA] - Plato and Alphatia
[MYSTARA] - Paladins
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Plato and Alphatia
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project and Immortal Servants
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:41:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
James said:
>Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
>under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the Atlantis
>stuff.
>
Gaaaaggggghh! *urk* *spin head* Never!!!! While Aplhatia's "secret name"
was Atlantis in CM1 and other modules, that aspect was scripted out in
DotE. Rightly so, IMO, because I've put the M-Atlantis culture to much
better use, IMO...*
Geoff
*Those fmailiar with my work know of what I speak. Check out Shawn and
Marco's pages, and you will know....
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:07:31 -0400
From: Chris <cbarnett@cococo.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark columns
> One comment: The Princess Arc Columns weren't going to be "uploaded"
> anywhere. Glen Sprig who typed them into one big file was asking if he
> could share the resulting file with those few of us who had specifically
> asked if he would share it with us.
Yes, I'd like a copy of that myself!
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Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:45:55 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 00.25 07/09/98 +0100, you wrote:
>well, though i agree with the above about this is fantasy, the big
>difference between tech and magic is that tech can be used by the common
>man. While magic seems to be a thing u are born with.
This is just AD&D, in D&D even someone with Int=3 can play a mage.
Anyway this is not my point. IMO technology is like miscellaneous magical
items, everyone can use a broom of flying or a slate of identification,
even a common man.
BTW: not all tech can be used by everyone. Not everyone knows how to drive
a car, but even a Karameikan farmer would be able to use a ring of teleport.
Besides, while "advanced" tech requires special training to be used,
magical items just need a command word (at most). It's far easier to fly
with a flying carpet, than using an aircraft.
***********************************************
* Vancouver, 6 September 1998 *
* Alex Zanardi clinched his second Cart title *
* ALEX RULES *
***********************************************
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:04:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: au998@freenet.carleton.ca (Geoff Gander)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
Paul Dooley wrote:
>
>This is to all those involved with Davinia especially but all feedback
>will be ruthlessly plagerised for my campaign if I like it.
Hey there, Paul! Let's see if I can help you out here...
>Basically what`s going on in the desert SW of Thyatian Hinterlands?
You mean the Meghales Amosses Desert?
I`ve gotten an idea about 3 HUGE oasis (what`s the plural?) about 200 miles
>apart with the nearest about 500 miles from the Hinterlands.
Okay, I don't have the maps with me, but the ones that I created and
put online are based on the ones given in the HW boxed set. Basically,
they're about as accurate as you're going to get, terrain-wise. I
don't think the desert lies within 500 miles of the Hinterlands,
because the Meghala Kimata Plains lie in between. Could someone check
the distance? Offhand I'd say the nearest desert in that direction is
closer to 700 miles away, but no big deal...
In terms of oases - cool! There's no reason why they *couldn't* be there.
My maps are a 72-mile hex scale, anyway, so even a 24-mile wide oasis
would fit neatly into a desert hex.
Events:
Event-wise, not much has been going on in the northern Meghales Amosses
Desert, save for the occasional nomad raids on Milenian settlements lying
in the region (the largest of which being Polakatsikes - conquered by the
HK in 1015). All the action is happening further to the north, on the
Meghala Kimata Plains, where powerful surviving remnants of the Milenian
empire are positioning themselves for a resurgence. One of these
city-states is *very* close, and could very well pose a threat to regional
stability in the short term.
As for the Aryptian Desert, to the southeast, well, that's a different
story (right Alex? *g*)... :-)
>There are Wierd magical effects such as teleporting in the area can turn
>you inside out rumoured about the area and the westernmost of the oasis is
>ruled by someone known as the `Twilight Necromancer`. If I`m not
>stepping on anyones toes would you all be interested in the whole story?
>
Sure! I'd love to see this! :-)
>______________________________________________________
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>
- --
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
au998@freenet.carleton.ca
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:17:05 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>>well, though i agree with the above about this is fantasy, the big
>>difference between tech and magic is that tech can be used by the common
>>man. While magic seems to be a thing u are born with.
>
>This is just AD&D, in D&D even someone with Int=3 can play a mage.
Hmm, a semi intelligent mage. I think not...
Thats not really the point tho. You dont see Mystaran armies loaded with
wands of lightning (except in the furthermost recesses of Alphatia, and
there they should stay). OTOH, even 15th century armies were equipped with
muskets and cannon. Its easier to train a gunsmith than a mage.
And in D+D, there are numerous hints about how magic is something you are
born with (I was thinking of this, not an minimum intelligence).
Alphatians, Eusebius son, and the von Drachenfels family all are supposed to
have an innate magical ability that separates them from the Common Man - who
will have to make do with a 0.50 cal...
Cheerz
Rob
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:32:04 EDT
From: Magesmiley@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
In a message dated 9/8/98 8:28:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes:
<< Probably been discussed before but what actuall happens to a cleric,
paladin etc. if theyntravel back in time to before their patron achieved
Immortality? I`ve got a new group who`ve never been to Blackmoor and
this is the first time I`ll have any in the party for the adventures.
IMO they`re buggered until they gain new patrons buts what`s the `canon`
or opinion of the list? >>
The info I'm using to make my opinion on this is mostly derived from some
information in the Blood Brethren modules. I have come up with two
possibilities based on info from those the first of those modules.
1. Clerics and Paladins are limited to 1st and 2nd level spells. This is
based on the event in HWA1 where the clerics of the Known World lose any spell
higher than the second level (first and second level spells arise from the
"purity of spirit") due to the immortals being back in time and not being
around during that period of time. An option mentioned there is that this
does NOT affect druids.
2. Their spells work just fine. This is based on some suppostion and part of
the explanation of how immortals can travel through time (also described in
HWA1). "All Immortals can magically send their awareness into the past." I
am assuming that if this is true then they can also grant spells to followers
in the past, as long as they have at some point visited the time period the
characters are visiting. This of course leads into paradox problems, to say
the least, so don't beat me up over it.
Personally I'd probably use the first option myself (less paradox headaches).
Another route to take if you want the clerics to be able to cast spells is for
the cleric to take back an artifact with the ability which allows the patron's
clerics to gain spells even if he/she isn't around (I can't find my WOTI at
the moment and don't remember the exact name of the ability, but its in WOTI).
- -Mage
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:38:39 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
>
> Blackmoor started out on both Greyhawk and KW. Maybe someone knows
> whether it was removed from Greyhawk later...?
>
It is still part of Greyhawk, but not given any real attention. Its kinda
like Canada like that, I guess: it sits up in the Great White North, and no
one gives it much of a thought. 8-)~
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:42:54 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
> >
> Gaaaaggggghh! *urk* *spin head* Never!!!! While Aplhatia's "secret name"
> was Atlantis in CM1 and other modules
>
Well, I'll give you that this stuff was fairly crappily done in thouse
modules, however it is somewhat clear that Alph was (kind of) inspired by
Atlantis. However' I'll also give you your due and say that your stuff is
better done in that regard. However (again), Alphatia wasn't designed to be
a direct copy of any thing (it has Mesopotamian influences, as some pointed
out, some consider it "Mystara's USA", though I don't see much of that, it
does perhaps have some aspects of China (big and advanced), but not much).
To that degree it is somewhat unique, unlike (and even I'll admit this) the
canon version of Thyatis (see, Jamuga; I'm not blinded by my dislike 8-)~
> that aspect was scripted out in
> DotE. Rightly so, IMO, because I've put the M-Atlantis culture to much
> better use, IMO...*
>
> Geoff
>
> *Those fmailiar with my work know of what I speak. Check out Shawn and
> Marco's pages, and you will know....
>
> --
> Geoff Gander, BA 97
> Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
> Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
> au998@freenet.carleton.ca
>
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:52:56 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" <anpro@accesocero.es>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Plato and Alphatia
> James said:
>
> >Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
> >under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the
Atlantis
> >stuff.
Hope I don´t sound too pedantic, but I think that Plato's "Atlantis stuff"
is found in Critias, not Republic.
What makes me feel Alphatia quite Platonic is the social system, as I
pointed in a previous mail, with the "Philosophers" (spellcasters) able to
rule due their better understanding and power over the Universe. I know
that Glantri is similar in that concept, but Glantri is in no way as
classist as Alphatia, it takes a more pragmatic (at times too much) look at
politics. This made me think of the Medieval scholarship on Plato and
Aristotle: Platonism could be related with the Followers of Air and
Aristotelism with the Followers of Flame (the remote ancestors of good part
of Glantri). I also had an adventure idea: what about a little group of
Alphatian mages who, abroad when their continent sank, try to rebuild their
"ideal society" in other lands? It could be a good twist on the classical
"dominion rule for high-level PCs".
Ideas, Comments, rebuking?
PS: I am just writing a paper on Plato's Republic and may have gone
off-wind. If this thread is too absurd and any of you seems to like
philosophy and dropping a bit of it into Mystara, we can conduct it
off-list.
Annecians de Skie
Alphatian Mage who, after losing his true love, went downhill and planned
to commit suicide by building an Alphatian Republic in Ylaruam.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 17:56:35 CDT
From: "Ceaf Lewis" <lordceaf@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
Ok, so paladins are like magic using fighters, right? (Well, thats the
impression I got...) So whats the catch?
Ceaf Lewis
lordceaf@hotmail.com
Visit my web page at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9442
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:06:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
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As far as "innate magical ability" is concerned, what IS the difference?
I know that Tredorian, say, isn't unable to use magic because of a low
INT--then what keeps him from it (and others)? Have I just missed
something over and over???
Just feeling stupid :)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:17:05 +0100
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>>well, though i agree with the above about this is fantasy, the big
>>difference between tech and magic is that tech can be used by the common
>>man. While magic seems to be a thing u are born with.
>
>This is just AD&D, in D&D even someone with Int=3 can play a mage.
Hmm, a semi intelligent mage. I think not...
Thats not really the point tho. You dont see Mystaran armies loaded with
wands of lightning (except in the furthermost recesses of Alphatia, and
there they should stay). OTOH, even 15th century armies were equipped with
muskets and cannon. Its easier to train a gunsmith than a mage.
And in D+D, there are numerous hints about how magic is something you are
born with (I was thinking of this, not an minimum intelligence).
Alphatians, Eusebius son, and the von Drachenfels family all are supposed to
have an innate magical ability that separates them from the Common Man - who
will have to make do with a 0.50 cal...
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:09:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
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I agree that Alphatia is kind of a big melange of different influences
(mostly Mes.), but to say that it's like "Mystara USA?"???--don't forget
good old Darokin (economically, anyway) :-)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:42:54 -0500
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> >
> Gaaaaggggghh! *urk* *spin head* Never!!!! While Aplhatia's "secret name"
> was Atlantis in CM1 and other modules
>
Well, I'll give you that this stuff was fairly crappily done in thouse
modules, however it is somewhat clear that Alph was (kind of) inspired by
Atlantis. However' I'll also give you your due and say that your stuff is
better done in that regard. However (again), Alphatia wasn't designed to be
a direct copy of any thing (it has Mesopotamian influences, as some pointed
out, some consider it "Mystara's USA", though I don't see much of that, it
does perhaps have some aspects of China (big and advanced), but not much).
To that degree it is somewhat unique, unlike (and even I'll admit this) the
canon version of Thyatis (see, Jamuga; I'm not blinded by my dislike 8-)~
> that aspect was scripted out in
> DotE. Rightly so, IMO, because I've put the M-Atlantis culture to much
> better use, IMO...*
>
> Geoff
>
> *Those fmailiar with my work know of what I speak. Check out Shawn and
> Marco's pages, and you will know....
>
> --
> Geoff Gander, BA 97
> Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
> Part-Time High Priest, Ottawa Chapter of the Church of Y'hog
> au998@freenet.carleton.ca
>
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:13:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Plato and Alphatia
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No, Glantri is no way as classist as Alphatia, but Alphatians are so
much more comfortable with it :) The problem with Glantri is that the
interplay of the different cultures added in with the strange way of
"dominion-hopping" makes the nobility very insecure about their place in
society.
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero=22?= <anpro@accesocero.es>
To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Plato and Alphatia
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:52:56 +0200
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> James said:
>
> >Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
> >under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the
Atlantis
> >stuff.
Hope I don´t sound too pedantic, but I think that Plato's "Atlantis stuff"
is found in Critias, not Republic.
What makes me feel Alphatia quite Platonic is the social system, as I
pointed in a previous mail, with the "Philosophers" (spellcasters) able to
rule due their better understanding and power over the Universe. I know
that Glantri is similar in that concept, but Glantri is in no way as
classist as Alphatia, it takes a more pragmatic (at times too much) look at
politics. This made me think of the Medieval scholarship on Plato and
Aristotle: Platonism could be related with the Followers of Air and
Aristotelism with the Followers of Flame (the remote ancestors of good part
of Glantri). I also had an adventure idea: what about a little group of
Alphatian mages who, abroad when their continent sank, try to rebuild their
"ideal society" in other lands? It could be a good twist on the classical
"dominion rule for high-level PCs".
Ideas, Comments, rebuking?
PS: I am just writing a paper on Plato's Republic and may have gone
off-wind. If this thread is too absurd and any of you seems to like
philosophy and dropping a bit of it into Mystara, we can conduct it
off-list.
Annecians de Skie
Alphatian Mage who, after losing his true love, went downhill and planned
to commit suicide by building an Alphatian Republic in Ylaruam.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:27:40 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
In a message dated 1998-09-08 11:28:28 Eastern Daylight Time,
ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes:
> Probably been discussed before but what actuall happens to a cleric,
> paladin etc. if theyntravel back in time to before their patron achieved
> Immortality? I`ve got a new group who`ve never been to Blackmoor and
> this is the first time I`ll have any in the party for the adventures.
> IMO they`re buggered until they gain new patrons buts what`s the `canon`
> or opinion of the list?
Most likely they would be cut off from their patrons -- but this is not the
same thing as denying them all spells. In the D&D rules, spells of level
1 and 2 can be recovered even if the cleric is out of touch with his patron
Immortal. In AD&D, he would retain minor access to all spheres that he
had access to (meaning that he could cast spells of level 3 or less).
Either way, he is weakened but not helpless.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:27:38 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Immortal Project and Immortal Servants
In a message dated 1998-09-08 09:08:20 Eastern Daylight Time,
ezaqwazy@hotmail.com writes:
> So according to current `canon` BUT, what about what he`s done on other
> planets and planes? Another point is who`s point of view is used for the
> Immortal writeups? There`s lots of difference between human nations let
> alone other species.
All of what you say is true but for one point -- the basis of many (but
certainly
not all) Immortal cults is the fame of the great deeds done by the Immortal in
mortal life. Mealiden, at least, would have been venerated only by his own
people (and even then as a subordinate to Ilsundal) unless he did things after
attaining Immortality that attracted followers of other races and cultures.
So
attracting his own followers independent of those of Ilsundal would have been
a major challenge.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:27:42 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
In a message dated 1998-09-08 11:36:24 Eastern Daylight Time,
jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
> A Mystaran on the other hand, would start reflecting on what elements
> went into the design. Does the magic seem more pyromantic or
> aeromantic? Does it conduct the magic through pure gold or silver? Does
> it focus the power through a gem? A magical lens perhaps?
>
> You see, a Mystaran would not be able to reproduce technology for the
> simple reason that his assumptions are all wrong! There are no other
> explanations needed.
Actually, within the context of his own world a Mystaran's assumptions are
actually correct, as proven by the success of magic use in that world. And
the fact that these assumptions are correct on Mystara would seriously
interfere with the workings of any mechanical device that requires molecules,
atoms, and subatomic particles to behave in the same way on Mystara that
they do in our world. Simply put -- if earth, air, fire, and water are
literal
elements, then from the molecular level down all of our familiar laws of
physics fall apart. Only at the gross, visible level can we count on our real
world knowledge being applicable to Mystara.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:27:44 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
In a message dated 1998-09-08 11:36:24 Eastern Daylight Time,
jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
> If your player says, "I am going to build a huge generator in that old
> mill. Using water power, I will give my peasants running water and
> electric lights, thus proving myself the greatest lord of Norwold!",
> then you simply say he cannot fathom such a device.
>
> Even if the player fully describes how to build such a thing. Even if
> he says, in a somewhat overly condescending tone, "Well, such a device
> is really quite simple. Anyone can think of it."
>
> Forget it! He cannot conceive it. Beyond his ability. Period. No
> need for extra, unwieldy rules.
To follow on what I was saying about differences in physical laws:
Running water would be possible on Mystara -- since it is not based on the
actions of particles below the visible level, a system for delivering running
water would work just fine on Mystara. Developing the necessary
infrastructure,
of course, is another matter entirely.
However, the electrical generator would be much less reliable, involving as it
does that mystical force known as electricity. Since electricity is based on
the interactions of subatomic particles, there is no reason to believe that an
electrical generator based on real world physics would work the same way
on Mystara. Only a gnome should have any real chance of coming up with
an electrical generator -- and even for him it would be dangerous and
unreliable.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #608
********************************
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mystara-digest Wednesday, September 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 609
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
RE: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladinset al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:05:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
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What's the catch?...How many "magic-using fighters" have you met who can
keep it LG?
Seriously, though, the paladin class is THE toughest (IMHO) class to
play. In any average adventuring party, the course of the adventure soon
runs toward the "hack and sack" end of the spectrum--the challenge of
the paladin is to meet his or her own strict moral and religious
criteria while still being able to adventure and progress. Tough, but a
lot of fun if played right. (Though it's very important to keep a player
who wants to just be a "magic-using fighter" OUT of this class. They'll
be miserable, and they won't like the class changes that go with
alignment change.)
(IMC, the daughter of the patriarch of an order of War Priests is a
paladin--it's interesting seeing her thwart the conquest-and-pillage
plans of dear ol' dad! :)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: "Ceaf Lewis" <lordceaf@hotmail.com>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 17:56:35 CDT
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Ok, so paladins are like magic using fighters, right? (Well, thats the
impression I got...) So whats the catch?
Ceaf Lewis
lordceaf@hotmail.com
Visit my web page at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/9442
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:05:22 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" <anpro@accesocero.es>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
>
> >
>
> Most likely they would be cut off from their patrons -- but this is not
the
> same thing as denying them all spells. In the D&D rules, spells of level
> 1 and 2 can be recovered even if the cleric is out of touch with his
patron
> Immortal. In AD&D, he would retain minor access to all spheres that he
> had access to (meaning that he could cast spells of level 3 or less).
> Either way, he is weakened but not helpless.
I depends of how we consider Time in Mystara. I tend to think that when a
mortal becomes an Immortal, time pattern changes and he is supposed to have
always existed; time is not a boundary to him (Immortals can time-travel,
as may be seen, for instance, in HWA1-3). Another thing is the lack of
worshippers: the Immortal would be "latent" until the historical time of
his ascension to Immortality and revelation to people. IF a cleric
travelled back in time, he would carry the revelation with him, so be able
to cast spells and act. Perhaps this is only true for Immortals of the
Sphere of Time, and could give way to a lot of paradox (isn´t Khoronus the
immortal who "sponsored himself"?). Conversely, if an Immortal were
destroyed, he would have NEVER existed, no matter how far back we travel in
the river of Time.
After too much meandering into Fate and predestination, tis time to go to
bed,
Andrés
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote:
> elements, then from the molecular level down all of our familiar laws of
> physics fall apart. Only at the gross, visible level can we count on our real
> world knowledge being applicable to Mystara.
Thus the reason why high technology items decay, while simple technology
doesn't.
Ethan
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:56:33 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
>
> Ok, so paladins are like magic using fighters, right? (Well, thats the
> impression I got...) So whats the catch?
>
Well, both D&D & AD&D Paladins have (limited) access to Clerical spells,
but both must live under severe behavior restrictions. Basically, to be
consise about it, they must live up to the heroic ideal, forsaking greed,
adding the weak, and their are severe penalties if they succumb (a la
Lancelot). Sir Galahad is probably the best example of a Paladin from
legend (with Lancelot the best example of a Paladin who falls from grace).
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:59:39 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
>
> Seriously, though, the paladin class is THE toughest (IMHO) class to
> play. In any average adventuring party, the course of the adventure soon
> runs toward the "hack and sack" end of the spectrum--the challenge of
> the paladin is to meet his or her own strict moral and religious
>
Definately right on all that. VERY hard to play a Paladin up to the ideal
standard that is expected. But can be worth it if you're willing to be the
hero (and not be obnoxious about it).
(btw, *I* wasn't saying Alphatia was the USA. I was just saying that some
look at it that way. end of pointless asside).
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 03:14:42 +0200
From: Antonio Lopez <101659@ingta.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
>I agree that Alphatia is kind of a big melange of different influences
>(mostly Mes.), but to say that it's like "Mystara USA?"???--don't forget
>good old Darokin (economically, anyway) :-)
I find strange that Darokin guilds had enough power to be the rulers of a
countrie so young.
What do you think?
>
>Jenn
>
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Antonio Lopez
ICQ 14670831
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/1639/index.html
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:44:53 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
> I find strange that Darokin guilds had enough power to be the rulers of a
> countrie so young.
>
> What do you think?
>
Well, the Darokinian history from the Gaz. goes over why these Houses
(actually, IMO, aristocratic families who's power is based on control over
the economy and merchantilism) are as prominent as they are in Darokin.
It is somewhat strange that Darokin is such an economic powerhouse after a
fairly short history of unity, but even that was (somewhat) explained.
Darokin is kind of like the N. Italian city states without the internal
strife. Given that they aren't wasting their energys fighting each other
(IMO, an aspect of Darokin that makes it rather tame, thus not the best
gaming environment), their economic strength shouldn't be *too* surprising,
even for a young country.
After all, the N. Italians did just fine, and they were busy slaughtering
each other and burning down assets, privateering each other's trade, etc.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:51:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
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I take what you are asking is "How have the guilds built up such a power
base in so short a time?" If that's so, then my answer is that the
guilds are consortiums of wealthy merchant families. These families
(esp. the Nine in charge) are essentially the wealthy men and women who
had the money (and, hence, the power) to keep the roads open, orcs and
bandits away, etc. before the formation of the Republic in the tenth
century. So, for example, Charles Mauntea was richest, with the most
power (kinda like a Mafia don, if you'll pardon the example--this is NOT
an inference in any way on the Maunteas!), and so he was able to get
everyone else together. then, their groups of allies became the
guilds/houses.
Any of this making sense, or am i just rambling (can't tell any
more--I'm back in school:)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 03:14:42 +0200
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
From: Antonio Lopez <101659@ingta.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I agree that Alphatia is kind of a big melange of different influences
>(mostly Mes.), but to say that it's like "Mystara USA?"???--don't forget
>good old Darokin (economically, anyway) :-)
I find strange that Darokin guilds had enough power to be the rulers of a
countrie so young.
What do you think?
>
>Jenn
>
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Antonio Lopez
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:55:49 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
In a message dated 9/8/98 12:09:00 PM, you wrote:
<<Just learned that Poland was a Grand Duchy and a
protectorate of the French Empire under Napoleon Bonaparte. Thats not
exactly medieval though..
>>
Never forget, that throughout history, independent lords owing fealty to their
Kings, if strong enough, could do what they pleased in their own lands and
their subject felt more local than national loyalty. The Dukes of Lancaster
were some of the largest individual land holders in England, and often on the
continent as well. The Bulgarians were, at times, occupied by, given free
reign by, and even independent from, Constantinople and the Eastern Empire
(and moved back and forth on this spectrum depending on who sat on the
different thrones). The Sire de Coucy, while a vassal to the throne of France,
was one of the most influential men in Europe during the 100 Years war and
managed to marry an English Princess when he was help prisoner at one point.
I know the black baron was a thorn in old Stephen's side, and that every Gaz
tried to introduce an "inside threat" to keep things from being "one big happy
family", but the overall central control of the ruling governments needs to be
"practically weakened" by DMs, in my opinion. Even in the "High fantasy Bible"
(Tolkien) Gondor, Rohan, etc are beset by real internal divisions, and the
Fantasy empires of Rift war saga are nicely presented as "more feudal" than
Mystara.
In this vein, pardon the ramble/preamble (preramble?), I ask the list to
suggest who are some of the Big Cheeses, Power-players of the Known World . .
.the Kingmakers of Mystara. In addition, what families would be out there
looking for intranational and international marriages to strengthen their
positions? One PWA listed some of the eligible bachelors and bachelorettes,
any updated entries?
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:58:37 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
In a message dated 9/8/98 1:09:51 PM, you wrote:
<<Had the status of a conquered, occupied fief at that point, though. Similar
to the puppet states established by Nazi Germany in the region during WWII.
>>
or that of William the Conqueror, a king of England by war, but the Duke of
Normandy and a vassal of the French throne by inheritance and personal oath.
It kept him pretty busy on both sides of the Channel putting down rivals for
the rest of his life.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:04:51 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladinset al
In a message dated 9/8/98 1:23:08 PM, you wrote:
<<IMC Khoronus was not
around at that time, but Verthandi was, and he granted the cleric his spells
instead.>>
It might be fun for the immortals, and at the same time, keeps the secrets of
Immortals out of the general knowledge
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:16:31 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
In a message dated 98-09-08 01:38:55 EDT, jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
<< > invisibility works wonders. As does stoneskin (You fired a 120mm cannon
at
> me? Thats one attack :)
>
But each bullet from the coaxial machinegun is an attack. That'll smoke you
quickly (most abused spell probably isn't Fabricate, or even Wish, it is
Stoneskin).>>
not really. given that coaxial mgs are rapid fire weapons, the number of
rounds fired per game round would be high. to keep things more balanced i'd
tweak down the rate of fire per round.
>
> well, there are a lot of spells where the exact material is irrelevant.
> Lightning bolt for one :)
>
Depends. Most ceramics are insulators vs. electricity. I'm not sure about
Chobham (sp?) armor, but I doubt lightning bolt will do much to it. Plus,
as I pointed out before, range=limited by comparison to modern weapons.>>
yes indeed. composite armours such as chobham are also highly resistant to
HEAT rounds. so a fireball is childsplay to shrug off. as james pointed out,
range is heavily in favor of the modern weapons. sighting aids can turn night
into day at ranges exceeding infravision. AFV anti-personnel devices and other
close in defenses can disrupt spellcasting. some of these are triggered
manually and/or can be set off by movement. then there are the weapons
themselves. the 120mm and 105mm NATO standard mainguns have ranges exceding a
mile. the 105mm gun has various ammo types to attack both armor and infantry.
coaxial and turret copula mounted machine guns (either 12.7mm or 7.62mm) also
have ranges approaching a mile.
> Tensers destructive resonance for another :). In
> my experience, high level magic is more powerful than technology.
>
You have actual personal experience? Share with the group, please 8-).
OTOH, in my limited gaming experience, most modern weapons seem to have
been "toned down" a bit (especially the armored monstrosities) so that they
will be a challege, but not effectively invincible.>>
real world tech based weapons have to be toned down. if not, gamers all over
the world would suffer from an epedimic of cases of carpel tunnel syndrome
from the excessive dice rolling. there are easy fixes to converting tech
weapons to DnD. for that bunker i had to come up with several. this also
inspired others.
>
> (And incidentally, the true power of magic is certainly not battle magic,
> like fireballs and other mundane stuff. Magic cheats - extraplanar
travel,
> mind control, illusion and that sort of thing is infinitely more
> powerful...)
>
I'd agree with that. A true mage probably scoffs at some dude who is little
more than a glorified flamethrower for a party of subterenean thieves.
Still, all this talk about tech vs. magic made me go look up the old
"Sturmegshutz and Sorcery" article, reprinted in Best of The Dragon (#1). >>
normally i'd scoff at all this talk of tech weapons vs. spell and sword. but i
see a need since tech will be rearing its head at least twice. not to mention
the occassional blackmoor artifact discovered here or there.
i don't have that particular dragon issue. the choice of Sturmegshutz
interests me though. not everyday you see a reference to the ww2 german
assault gun (aka the StuG) used in DnD. is this article online?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:45:44 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
In a message dated 1998-09-08 13:16:27 Eastern Daylight Time,
jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
> Yep, that is pretty much what I do. There is always the chance that
> some "nice" immortal will realize what is going on and takeover being
> the cleric's patron for the interim...
A likely candidate for the "nice" Immortal might be the patron of the
cleric's Immortal -- if the cleric prays and meditates in the proper way,
he may bring himself to the attention of his own Immortal's patron.
Assuming that the Immortal and his patron did not diverge in interests
too much over the intervening centuries, the older Immortal may properly
decide to treat the time traveler as one of his own clerics.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:48:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
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Big Cheeses:
Harald Haaskinz (he only runs the biggest magical institution on the
planet, now with Alphatia gone), the Master (the eastern world
trembles...), and don't forget good ol' Count Oesterhaus
(Thanatos)--getting his fingers sticky, pulling strings behind the
scenes...?
Power Players:
Oran Meditor, Corwyn Mauntea, and whoever is in charge of the big-money
dealings over there in Slagovich :)
Kingmakers (power behind the power):
Demetrion (Thyatis)
The anonymous "guildmaster" of the Merchants' guild in Darokin
Eligibles:
Not only Ericall still, but where is Tredorian? (IMC, he survived...);
Valen Karameikos; Justin Karameikos; Gabronius and Coltius (can we say
HEIR TO THE THYATIAN THRONE?) Torion; Geir Hordson (or was it Finn--I
don't recall:); Julianna Vlaardoen
Here's my big question--WHERE ARE THE OTHER FEMALES? JA gives the names
of some pretty high-class bachelors, but the bachelorettes are not so
imaginative.
That's my vote.
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:55:49 EDT
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Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
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In a message dated 9/8/98 12:09:00 PM, you wrote:
<<Just learned that Poland was a Grand Duchy and a
protectorate of the French Empire under Napoleon Bonaparte. Thats not
exactly medieval though..
>>
Never forget, that throughout history, independent lords owing fealty to their
Kings, if strong enough, could do what they pleased in their own lands and
their subject felt more local than national loyalty. The Dukes of Lancaster
were some of the largest individual land holders in England, and often on the
continent as well. The Bulgarians were, at times, occupied by, given free
reign by, and even independent from, Constantinople and the Eastern Empire
(and moved back and forth on this spectrum depending on who sat on the
different thrones). The Sire de Coucy, while a vassal to the throne of France,
was one of the most influential men in Europe during the 100 Years war and
managed to marry an English Princess when he was help prisoner at one point.
I know the black baron was a thorn in old Stephen's side, and that every Gaz
tried to introduce an "inside threat" to keep things from being "one big happy
family", but the overall central control of the ruling governments needs to be
"practically weakened" by DMs, in my opinion. Even in the "High fantasy Bible"
(Tolkien) Gondor, Rohan, etc are beset by real internal divisions, and the
Fantasy empires of Rift war saga are nicely presented as "more feudal" than
Mystara.
In this vein, pardon the ramble/preamble (preramble?), I ask the list to
suggest who are some of the Big Cheeses, Power-players of the Known World . .
.the Kingmakers of Mystara. In addition, what families would be out there
looking for intranational and international marriages to strengthen their
positions? One PWA listed some of the eligible bachelors and bachelorettes,
any updated entries?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:53:23 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-08 03:02:31 EDT, eand@WPI.EDU writes:
<< On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote:
> a drastic change. i have to doubt a true mystara fan would drastically
change
> the setting.
Oof. Alex, that hurt.. a lot. >>
i was scared that line would be interpretted as a flame. what i meant was that
a mystara gamer would choose mystara for its sword and sorcery atmosphere.
someone wanting a heavy tech setting has other options to go with. if a DM
wants to have a tech based setting based on mystaran nations, that is fine but
it is not mystara.
<<Making high technology decay slowly because of magical interference would
hurt only one setting drastically, and that is yours. >>
for the divergans, technology is a nonissue. if anything it is a burden.
<<So I wanted to set a precedent that technology could exist, but couldn't
be repaired without magic. The DV team thought that a bit harsh, and
someone sugessted the corruption of high technology by the magical energy
of the planet/NoS/whatever. >>
[snipped]
mainly i oppose the NoS being the cause of corruption. imo time itself can
easily be blamed for corruption and decay. i have no real problem with the
citadel or having quasi technology. the cause and a need to explain that cause
is what i contest.
as mentioned previously, tech already exists. minus simple technology such as
gears and levers, there is still the shadow elf reactor which was told of
being constructed in the SE gaz and finished in the last net-almanac. imo the
reactor is an untouched version of the NoS. its pure technology. built by the
SE at the instructions of their patron, the scientific Rafiel.
for the bunker i went an extra step to insure limiting the weaponry to the
bunker's interior and not being used outside. mainly heavy weapons such as
aircraft and tanks. amazing what a few desperate defenders can do with
phospherous based satchel charges.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:07:09 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
In a message dated 1998-09-08 21:52:30 Eastern Daylight Time,
101659@ingta.unizar.es writes:
> I find strange that Darokin guilds had enough power to be the rulers of a
> countrie so young.
>
> What do you think?
Maybe the guilds are older than the nation of Darokin -- in that case it would
not be surprising at all if the guilds ran things, as the nation could never
have
been established without their consent.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:07:08 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 1998-09-08 19:43:33 Eastern Daylight Time,
Valerya@webtv.net writes:
> As far as "innate magical ability" is concerned, what IS the difference?
> I know that Tredorian, say, isn't unable to use magic because of a low
> INT--then what keeps him from it (and others)? Have I just missed
> something over and over???
>
> Just feeling stupid :)
Also required is a certain degree of magical talent, which is not quantified
in game terms. All Elves have it, but Dwarves and Halflings generally do not.
Humans, of course, are somewhere in the middle. Heredity is certainly a
factor -- Tredorian, for example, is probably unable to become a Mage because
he inherited his father Torenal's lack of magical talent. Even if he is a
genius,
he would be no more able to become a Mage than a Dwarf with an intelligence
of 18.
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------------------------------
End of mystara-digest V1997 #609
********************************
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mystara-digest Wednesday, September 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 610
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
[MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles
Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
[MYSTARA] - [repost] Mystara and chronomancy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:07:10 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
In a message dated 1998-09-08 22:23:40 Eastern Daylight Time,
jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> Given that they aren't wasting their energys fighting each other
> (IMO, an aspect of Darokin that makes it rather tame, thus not the best
> gaming environment), their economic strength shouldn't be *too* surprising,
> even for a young country.
It is probably an ideal place for adventurers to come from -- but they will
probably
want to leave home to seek adventure. Of course, even Darokin has a few areas
of wilderness in which "normal" adventures are possible.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:25:07 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
In a message dated 1998-09-09 01:31:13 Eastern Daylight Time, BoBoII@aol.com
writes:
> In this vein, pardon the ramble/preamble (preramble?), I ask the list to
> suggest who are some of the Big Cheeses, Power-players of the Known World .
.
> .the Kingmakers of Mystara.
This suggests a more sinister role for the merchant houses of Darokin -- for
of
course they are the main kingmakers and power brokers of the Known World.
By their control of trade in various areas they can manipulate the politics of
the region. Even if foreign powers figure out what they are up to, they are
not
inclined to make war on Darokin but to try to befriend rival houses of
whichever
house is creating problems for them. Since the various houses cannot openly
fight each other, they manipulate other nations into doing their dirty work
for
them. They have actually been doing this for several centuries -- it is only
relatively recently that they decided to openly set up their own "neutral"
country. They managed to gain effective control of every nation except for
the Broken Lands (which were too disorganized) and Hule (as the Master is
yet another power broker himself, albeit one not aligned with the
Darokinians).
In addition to Darokin and Hule, the Thyatian Empire and (prior to the end of
WotI) the Alphatian Empire were "superpowers" to which many smaller
nations were beholden -- and Thyatis, at least, should have been vulnerable
to Darokinian mercantile influence. Moving further west, the major powers
of the Savage Coast seem to be Texeiras and Vilaverde, as they both have
colonies extending from the Savage Baronies to the Arm of the Immortals.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:13:25 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
>yes indeed. composite armours such as chobham are also highly resistant to
>HEAT rounds. so a fireball is childsplay to shrug off.
ahh, but the fireball would fill the interior as well... And a lightning
bolt effecively disintegrates as well as electrocutes because of the shock
of the blast. Failing that, how about a disintegrate spell? Or a death
spell (kill all the crew, then the mage gets to play with a tank!).
>as james pointed out,
>range is heavily in favor of the modern weapons.
Well, there are some spells that dont even require line of sight...
>sighting aids can turn night
>into day at ranges exceeding infravision. AFV anti-personnel devices and
other
>close in defenses can disrupt spellcasting. some of these are triggered
>manually and/or can be set off by movement. then there are the weapons
>themselves. the 120mm and 105mm NATO standard mainguns have ranges exceding
a
>mile. the 105mm gun has various ammo types to attack both armor and
infantry.
>coaxial and turret copula mounted machine guns (either 12.7mm or 7.62mm)
also
>have ranges approaching a mile.
Mmm. I can just imagine the poor old gunner sighting up an illusion, while
the polymorphed wren sneaks around the back. (Modern tanks are
exceptionally vulnerable from behind, modern tank tactics are all about
making sure the enemy never gets there. But mobile xD+D characters could run
rings around a tank). Or for that matter, the gunner sighting up a fire
charm spell, and getting charmed (Range of a fire charm? Line of sight...
Dont use a telescope!)
>real world tech based weapons have to be toned down. if not, gamers all
over
>the world would suffer from an epedimic of cases of carpel tunnel syndrome
>from the excessive dice rolling. there are easy fixes to converting tech
>weapons to DnD. for that bunker i had to come up with several. this also
>inspired others.
Check out Top Secret. A game that uses modern weapons, but I was quite
impressed by the streamlined system.
Cheerz
Rob
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:15:37 +0200
From: Ezio Pignatelli <pignatelli@pd.astro.it>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles
TSR wrote:
> We won't be adding any old Dragon articles for some time.
This _is_ he defeat! I liked the articles online, even if they are quite
hard to trace.
Now, any decision on? it is true, Glen is only 'asking' to mail
personally re-typed copies of the Princess Ark articles, not to upload
scanned ones on one website. But -if you want my opinion... well, that's
that kind of 'violation of copyright' that any company will _tolerate_.
Tolerate is the key word: I guess it is not legal, and they will never
tell you 'ok, do it'. So, I guess it is you choice, Glen, whether you
want to send it or not. Of course, I hope you will be inclined to send
it. :) Oh, and put me on the list ;)
- --
Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova
Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840
mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat
- --
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:21:23 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
>course they are the main kingmakers and power brokers of the Known World.
>By their control of trade in various areas they can manipulate the politics
of
>the region. Even if foreign powers figure out what they are up to, they
are
>not
>inclined to make war on Darokin but to try to befriend rival houses of
>whichever
>house is creating problems for them. Since the various houses cannot
openly
>fight each other, they manipulate other nations into doing their dirty work
>for
I have always said that the DDC should take a far more active, perhaps even
more sinister, stance. Remember that Darokin as a nation hasnt got a great
deal going for it. It survives thanks to trade - ie effectively leeching
off other nations wealth. Merchants dont actually produce anything, they
move stuff around. (It actually says this sort of thing fairly often in the
Darokin gaz, IIRC).
Point is, they are one of the few Mystaran nations almost wholly dependent
on their neighbours. Glantri, Karameikos, Alfheim/Aengmor etc., should they
wish, could go isolationist with no problems. And Darokin would suffer if
deprived of its trading partners. And trade isnt going to be as relevant in
a 15th century world than it is in todays virtual money global economy...
The DDC is going to try to keep the markets open. As far as Darokin is
concerned, that is the battle. Every market kept open is a victory for
Darokin...
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:25:24 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>As far as "innate magical ability" is concerned, what IS the difference?
>I know that Tredorian, say, isn't unable to use magic because of a low
>INT--then what keeps him from it (and others)? Have I just missed
>something over and over???
There is nothing in harsh Rulz that says this. However, repeatedly in
Mystaran source material there is talk about natural magical aptitude, or
lack thereof. And it seems to be generally a rare thing, making mages rare.
Jaggar has "got" it, as has Eusebius' child, as has the Alphatians
(generally). Tredorian has not "got it".
The original point was that magic is a thing only available for a small
segment of the population, whereas technology can be distributed to the
masses.
(Anyone who has played Mage and knows anything about the Technocracy will
know what I am getting at here :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:28:46 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
I take what you are asking is "How have the guilds built up such a power
base in so short a time?" If that's so, then my answer is that the
guilds are consortiums of wealthy merchant families
well, the Darokinian guilds have been going for over three hundred years,
IIRC. At least, that is the earliest time that they are mentioned.
Once the concept of trade has been well established (Presumably Darokin had
its very own Adam Smith a while back) thats quite a long time to develop.
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:40:53 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - [repost] Mystara and chronomancy
With all this talk about spells when traveling to the past, immortal
presence there and whatnot, I though it would be interesting to repost
this stuff.
BTW, my comment on the matter: Maybe clerics from most immortals would
not get their spells (except the 1st-2nd lv ones). But clerics from
Immortals of Time may get them as those Immortals are used to toy with
time, and would expect the same from their followers; to that end they
may have set up artifact relays through time to grant their clerics
their spells no matter how far they go in the past or the future.
Now on with the big stuff.
- ------------------------------------------------
Mystara and chronomancy
version 1.1 by Herve Musseau
Extract from Chonomancer and from Chronomancy & the Multiverse:
Chronomancy was known to the wizards of Alphatia, but all Alphatian
chronomancers
were destroyed by an unknown Immortal after they attempted to visit the
long-lost techno-
magical empire of Blackmoor during its last few years and at the time of
the global disaster that
destroyed that nation. One investigator of the loss of the Alphatians
believes the Immortals
Rafiel and possibly Rad (a.k.a. Etienne d'Amberville) are defending a
prehistoric secret
somehow connected with the Radiance of Glantri.
Despite the dangers associated with visiting Blackmoor, some adventurers
have reported
actually visiting a place called the Kingdom of Blackmoor, meeting
personages known to
current historians to have lived at that ancient time. Such voyages were
accomplished by
accident; the adventurers said they were trapped in the basement of a
ruined building in the
Broken Lands, and were then transported to Blackmoor of 3,000 years past
by a magical time
gate that was possibly controlled by the rulers of Blackmoor. This ruin
is of obvious interest to
chronomancers; if it exists, it likely opens into a long-duration vortex
in Temporal Prime. (For
more information, see the D&D(R) modules DA1 <Adventures in Blackmoor>,
DA2 <The
Temple of the Frog>, DA3 <City of the Gods>, and DA4 <The Duchy of
Ten>.)
No Guardians-like group of chronomancers is known here, as the Immortals
of Time do
a fine job of policing. Unobtrusive chronomancers would have
considerable freedom;
furthermore, they might gain the cautious notice of Immortals from
Energy or Time
(particularly Ixion or Khoronus), who might be bribed at tremendous
expense to reveal other
secrets of chronomancy or Mystaran history. Immortals of Time carefully
shunt time travelers
"around" critical events in history, so that all attempts to reach those
times are missed by days,
months, or years. Time travelers perceived as dangerously hostile to
Mystaran history are
located and destroyed without ceremony or delay. No chronomancer can use
time-travel
powers, either arriving or departing, during the Day of Dread (Kaldmont
28), from AC 1009
onward.
The most important Immortals of Time are described in the <Wrath of the
Immortals>
boxed set, in <Book One: Codex of the Immortals>; see especially Ixion
(page 23), Khoronus
(pages 25-26), Rad (pages 33-34), and Rafiel (page 34). Several major
elven Immortals are
from the Sphere of Time, but they are largely concerned with maintaining
the elven race and
the natural environment.
One curious aspect of time travel here concerns the future of magic on
Mystara. Some
sages believe, for reasons they will not disclose, that all magic on
Mystara is doomed to fade
away in the far future. (This situation seems somehow connected to the
actions of Rad and the
Radiance of Glantri.) Indeed, for a time there were reports of humanoid
creatures called
"oards" appearing across the Known World. Oards, who seemed to all look
alike, were said to
have been manufactured in the far future, and their bodies were both
flesh and machine. They
were able to disguise and defend themselves using means other than
magical, and were
extraordinarily powerful. A few wizards have attempted to go into the
far future of Mystara to
investigate these creatures and their world first-hand, but none have
returned. Perhaps they
were (will be?) stranded there, far in advance of our time, with no
magic left in the world to
bring themselves home. Or perhaps they were (will be?) caught by the
oards or other beings,
suffering fates that cannot be guessed. Questioning Khoronus or other
Immortals on the nature
of oards yields no responses. (See the 1986 edition of the D&D <Creature
Catalogue>, pages
42-43, for more on oards.)
Rumors sometimes pass through Glantri that a local wizard has
rediscovered the lost
secrets of chronomancy, but this has never been proven. Note the mention
of a time-traveling
Glantri wizardess from Averoigne in <Mark of Amber> (page 62). Though
not a true
chronomancer, she could be encountered all across Mystara's timeline,
using her potions to
cross time itself. In the MYSTARA(R) adventure <Mark of Amber> (page
62), a wizardess
from the fantastic French province of Averoigne is said to have invented
<potions of time
travel>, with which she explored Earth's history for her own amusement.
She now lives in
Glantri, maintaining her youth with other magical potions. Averoigne
could be part of a magical
Europe around A.D. 1600 in HR4 <A Mighty Fortress>, and this wizardess
could be met at
various times through Earth's history prior to her move to the world of
Mystara.
Humans, elves, and half-elves are the most likely chronomancer races
here. However,
time travelers might also meet up with a jackal-headed humanoid race
also using Temporal
Prime: the hutaakans of Karameikos, who can achieve chronomancer levels
roughly equal to
those gained by half-elves.
Immortals and Temporal Prime
All Immortals, at least those that remember it, have lived a mortal life
before gaining
their immortality. Thus, they have_or, more exactly, had_a lifeline.
This lifeline is generally
very bright, especially at the end of their life, since they were very
powerful characters in life.
Where their lifelines end, it is generally one of the most bright
lifeline around, and bears a great
momentum that is often transmitted to many other lifelines_followers and
clerics.
Severing lifeline: Upon reaching immortality, one does not really die,
but instead
reaches another, higher form of life. Therefore, the new Initiate's
lifeline does not automatically
end. However, at that same moment when the candidate becomes an
Initiate, it is the
responsibility of his/her sponsor to sever the candidate's lifeline. The
would-be Immortal is
generally not even aware that he/she has ýdiedý, since he/she founds
himself/herself in a new
body_his/her manifestation form_with amazing new powers. Moreover,
he/she is not
surprised if the sponsor disappears for a moment during the final stage
of his/her ascension to
immortality, and some Immortals even go back in time while they are in
the Temporal Prime so
that they seem never to have slipped away from reality. It should be
noted that some Immortals,
especially some from the Sphere of Entropy, and Rathanos, get a real,
intense pleasure at
severing the lifeline of their candidate, effectively killing them_or,
in the eyes of Rathanos,
bettering their status. Those few Immortals that have gained their
Immortality through other
means that sponsorship (i.e. Rad, Rafiel and Benekander), the intense
source of energy that
gave them Immortality also severed their lifelines in the process,
although it is not known
whether this is automatic or if this was special to these three
Immortals. The severing of the
candidate's lifeline is by tradition a part of the ascension to
Immortality, and no Immortals has
ever tried to defy that tradition. It is not known, even to the most
knowledgeable Immortals of
the Sphere of Time, what would happen if that step was, for some reason,
overlooked.
Contrary to mortal chronomancers that would cast the 9th-level spell
Sever Lifeline, Immortals
do not become natives of Temporal Prime; they become Immortals and
become linked to their
new home plane (generally created by themselves or their sponsor, or an
already existing one
that fits them).
Protecting lifeline: Most Immortals feel somehow vulnerable as Immortals
through that
mortal lifeline of theirs. If a mortal chronomancer, or an Immortal foe,
were to locate his/her
lifeline within the timestream_which wouldn't be that difficult_it would
be easy enough to
disrupt events so that they never even become Immortals_although the
momentum of time
would oppose such a change. Therefore, Khoronus, Father Time, in his
desire to protect
Mystaran history_of which the Immortals are obviously part_developed an
Immortal-level
spell_-Protect Lifeline_that can be cast on the mortal lifeline of an
Immortal so that it can't
be interacted with_even by other Immortals. This is in no way a 100%
effective protection,
since it is always possible to travel through time and meddling with the
life of an Immortal to be
without following his/her lifeline. Generally, a sponsor casts this
spell at the lifeline of a
candidate just after severing it. Immortals that were not sponsored are
not automatically
protected, but must first discover of this weakness and the existence of
such a spell, ask
Khoronus for it_something he is not known to have ever denied_and cast
it themselves.
Doubling lifeline: Since Immortals have no lifeline any more, they have
no restrictions
in regard of doubling their lifelines. However, since they are forbidden
to directly intervene on
the Prime Material Plane, this is generally of little use. Some have
tried to double their ýlifelineý
in regard to their home plane or an inner or outer plane, with the hope
that this would permit
them to be twice as active, but they have found that this generally led
to more problem than it
was worth. Their first problem is themselves: Immortals are often very
arrogant and dislike to
share their power, influence or followers with someone else, even
themselves; moreover, their
self from the right time sometimes believed this was a trick by another
Immortal to fool them
and opposed the plans of their time-traveling self. The second major
problem is their limited
understanding of how Temporal Prime works, especially the momentum of
time; only
Immortals from the Sphere of Time and some of the Sphere of Energy have
studied it enough
to understand what they're doing when time-traveling; those that would
enjoy the most doing
some time travel and disrupt events at any place and time, the chaotic
elements of the Sphere of
Entropy, have rarely studied it enough_except for Thanatos, who is quite
knowledgeable about
Temporal Prime, and sometimes uses it to his advantage (see the HWA
series for an example of
his time-related plots). Last but not least, Immortal time travel is
restricted by Immortal laws.
Immortal laws: Immortals have their own laws concerning time travel, as
they have
laws concerning direct intervention. The law is quite simple: Time
traveling is forbidden, except
for Immortals from the Sphere of Time_this is their natural sphere of
influence, and they are
assumed to know best_and when special missions through time are approved
by a council of
hierarchs (see the HWA series for an example of such an occurrence).
There is one major
exception to this rule: When a candidate reaches Immortality, his/her
sponsor can slip to
Temporal Prime to severe his/her lifeline, to cast a Preserve Lifeline
spell, and possibly to travel
back a few seconds to return at the very time of his/her slipping.
Immortals from the Sphere of
Time are responsible for watching Temporal Prime for unauthorized
Immortal travels, catch the
culprit_generally by trapping them in a temporal stasis with their
greater knowledge of
Temporal Prime_and bringing them to a council of hierarchs to be judged.
Some Immortals of
the Sphere of Time generally volunteer for this task, because they are
profoundly interested in
the safekeeping of Mystaran history_with Khoronus being the first of
them and coordinating
their efforts. Because of this laws, as well as other reasons, most
Immortals prefer not to tamper
with Temporal Prime unless they have the proper authorizations, or they
are very careful to
conceal their actions. Immortals that didn't gain their Immortality with
the help of a sponsor
don't always strictly adhere to Immortal laws, and are known to travel
through time when this is
in their interest, or otherwise interfere with Temporal Prime_this is
what Rafiel and Rad did
when chronomancers of Alphatia tried to contact the Blackmoorians_but
they are generally
watched by Immortals of Time and can be brought to Pandius to be judged
if they interfere.
Mortal identities: Whenever an Immortal creates a mortal identity, a new
lifeline
appears in the Temporal Prime. This lifeline is generally quite bright
since the mortal identity is
very powerful and able to greatly affect the lives of many persons. If
the Immortal returns to
his/her manifestation form and back from time to time, the lifeline
corresponding to the mortal
identity stops and restarts accordingly, the same way as does that of a
chronomancer. If the
mortal identity is the same as that the Immortal had in mortal life, the
same lifeline continues at
some point after the effective ýdeathý of its owner (this phenomenon can
also happen with a
chronomancer's lifeline). Immortals sometimes protect the lifelines of
their most important
mortal identities. An Immortal can be present in his/her mortal guise
and Immortal form at the
same time simply by traveling through time as Immortals, effectively
negating the side effect of
not being able to use their Immortal powers while in mortal form, but
this is rare occurrence
because of the Immortal laws.
Exalted creatures and Temporal Prime
Mortal lifeline: Exalted creatures are mortals that have died, but have
been reincarnated
by an Immortal into an exalted creature because they were loyal and
powerful followers in their
mortal life, and because they have often died while defending a cause
important to that
Immortal. Thus, they have a lifeline corresponding to their mortal
life_and a bright one_but it
has ended when they died. These lifelines are rarely protected, except
for the most important
exalted creatures.
Exalted lifeline: As soon as they become exalted, they become denizens
of another
plane, generally the same as the home plane of their Immortal patron.
Thus, a new lifeline
appears in the Temporal Prime corresponding to that plane, as if they
were just born on that
plane. These lifelines are also rarely protected, since it is not so
easy to travel between realities
in Temporal Prime, and other denizens of the plane are unlikely to
willingly disrupt their life
since they generally follow the same Immortals or at least allied ones.
Chronomancy: Most exalted creatures have no knowledge in chronomancy
(except
maybe the denizens of Entrem). They can slip in Temporal Prime if other
creatures help them
to_generally their patron_but in that case they are subject to the same
effects and hazards as
mortal creatures while there and can't double their lifelines.
Mystaran timestream
Turbulence: The Mytaran timestream certainly does have many turbulence.
These are
generally located at very special points in the timestream, as they mark
events that have had
such a tremendous impact on the history of Mystara that they have left a
permanent peculiarity
in Temporal Prime. These are most often permanent maelstroms of various
sizes, that
sometimes connect the Mystaran timestream to that of another reality.
Although they can be
used by mortal chronomancers to fast traveling effects, it is often
impossible to slip back to
reality where they stand, because these correspond to the critical
points in history that the
Immortals want to protect from tampering and shunt travelers around.
Maelstroms: The maelstroms often form around events of particular
importance to
Mystaran history; it is speculated that some vortices that are part of
such maelstroms go into
alternate Mystaras, where the events has turned differently, but no
chronomancers or
Immortals_with the possible exception of Khoronus, who is rumored among
Immortals to
have explored all such alternate worlds and carefully recorded their
histories_is known for sure
to have ventured there, or none has ever returned. Maelstroms also form
at the time of
transportation from cultures to the Hollow World, with vortices linking
the two points in space
at the time of the transportation and possibly to other times of that
culture in both the Outer
World and the Hollow World. Also, since Mystara is particularly rich in
dimensional travels (for
some unknown reason, many peoples and races from other worlds and
dimensions found it
easy to travel to Mystara), their time of arrival on Mystara has often
created a maelstrom on
Temporal Prime, with a vortex or more leading back to their home world
or dimensions. The
largest and most well-known of the maelstroms are:
Nucleus: A maelstrom situated at the time and place (at about 4000 BC,
at some place
in the void between the planets of Mystaraspace) of the arrival of the
Beagle in this world.
Hundreds or thousands of lifelines seem to begin at that same point, as
if that many people,
whose destinies seem very tied, had been suddenly born. One vortex is
supposed to lead back to
their home dimension, while another leads to the place and time of the
ship's engines explosion,
one to the First Alteration of the Engines, one to the Second Alteration
of the Engines, and one
to the moment of the Nucleus's activation that destroyed Alphatia in
1009 AC and resulted in
the week without magic. There are other vortices who lead farther in the
future.
Blackmoor: Another maelstrom exists at the time and place of the
explosion of
Blackmoor's devices that led to the Rain of Fire (around 3000 BC, in the
City of Blackmoor).
It has vortices leading to Blackmoor's independence from the Empire of
Thonia and to the
crash-landing of the Beagle, as well as to the second explosion in the
Broken Lands in 1700
BC.
Alphatia: A maelstrom exists at the moment of the landfall of the
Alphatians (1000 BC,
Alphatia). This one has vortices leading to the moment of the
destruction of Old Alphatia in
their home world (and possibly, from there to other points in Alphatia's
history), to the Flaem's
maelstrom, to the sinking of Alphatia in 1009 AC, and another maelstrom
corresponding to
Alphatia's relocation to the Hollow World. Other vortices may lead to
other points in the future.
Flaem: A maelstrom similar to Alphatia's stands at the moment of the
coming of the
Flaem to Mystara (395 AC, Braastar), with vortices to their previous
world (and possibly from
there to other worlds they wandered through; see the novel Dragonmage of
Mystara for more
detail on this subject), to Alphatia's and the Nucleus's maelstroms, and
to other future times.
Laterre: Another maelstrom in Glantri, but in 728 AC. It has vortices to
Laterre at the
times of the openings of the dimensional portals to and from Mystara as
well as the
disappearance (896 AC) and reappearance (979 AC) of the d'Ambrevilles,
to the Nucleus's
maelstrom, to Alphatia's sinking (but at the place of the Nucleus, not
Alphatia), and to other
future events.
Emerond: A smaller maelstrom stands at the point where Emerondians came
to
Mystara from the Pyrithian Archipelago asteroids many centuries ago. A
vortex leads back to
their asteroids in another part of the Mytaran solar system.
Red Curse: A maelstrom stands in the Savage Coast at the time of the
creation of the
Red Curse. Vortices lead to the exact places and times of the creation
of the different
components that make up the Curse, and to Herath at the moment of the
casting of the spell
that confines the Curse to the Savage Baronies and to the moment of its
dispelling by the Week
Without Magic.
Hollow World: A maelstrom stands at the time of the transformation of
the Hollow
World by the Immortals into a haven for endangered species. This
maelstrom has vortices
leading to all other maelstroms resulting from the relocation of any one
culture, as well as one
rumored to lead to an alternate Mystara in which the Immortals couldn't
come to such an
agreement and never transformed the Hollow World. All cultural
relocation give way to a
maelstrom, with at least two vortices linking the places of
pre-relocation and post-relocation,
and sometimes other vortices as well. Note that there is thus a second
Alphatian maelstrom, and
that the Nithian maelstrom also leads to all places that were eradicated
by the Immortals' fury.
Chronomancers
Who: Few chronomancers are known to live on Mystara. Most if not all
that came from
Old Alphatia were destroyed by Rafiel and Rad when they tried to contact
Blackmoor, although
some might have escaped (but it is quite difficult to escape an
Immortal's power). No
chronomancers were known to have come to Mystara with the Flaem.
Chronomancy may have
been rediscovered by some wizards from these countries or by individuals
anywhere, but if
that's the case, they either have been very discreet and probably
untampering, or they have
been destroyed before they could prove a threat to Mystara's history. It
is speculated that at
least some seers from Yavdlom may be chronomancers, in which case their
strict adherence to
the Precepts of Yav have prevented their sharing the fate of the
Alphatian chronomancers.
Secrets: As there are few chronomancers, if any, the secrets of
chronomancy are not
easily unveiled. Maybe a place to search would be in the books and
archived of the late
Alphatian chronomancers, but they might as well have been destroyed by
Rafiel and Rad to
prevent further tampering. The best source of chronomantic knowledge is
probably the
Immortals themselves; however, it is unlikely that they will give such
potentially dangerous
secrets without a good reason or to characters they fear would misuse
them. Moreover, most
Immortals don't have a good enough knowledge of Temporal Prime to reveal
all its secrets. The
best source of information would of course be Khoronus himself, but he
is a very secretive
character and is unlikely to give such secrets if it's not his own idea,
and in that case it would
probably be because his knowledge of the past and future of Mystara let
him think that it is the
fate of that character to learn of it at that very time. Another good
source of knowledge would
be Yav, but he probably himself adheres to his own principles, and
wouldn't give the secrets
away if it wasn't fate. Other Immortals of the Sphere of Time or exalted
creatures from Entrem
might be persuaded to give them away, but this probably would be at a
high price, and probably
also not without a good insurance about the character's intent;
moreover, they probably have
never studied Temporal Prime as well as the previous two Immortals. Some
Immortals of the
Sphere of Energy, primarily Ixion, also have some basic (not so basic in
the eyes of a would-be
chronomancer, or even an experienced one) knowledge of Temporal Prime
and could be
persuaded to reveal part of it at great expense.
Slipgates: There are no known permanent slipgates at any time or place
on Mystara.
The only thing that most closely resembles a slipgate is the gate at the
Comeback Inn, also
referred to as the Inn Between the Worlds. This inn has been enchanted
so as to be nearly
indestructible by normal passing of time, among other things, and is not
dispellable by standard
methods. But the inn has an unusual feature, although no one knows how
it came into being: a
gate in the lower cellar that permits time travel. This is not a real
slipgate, however: the gate is
not always open, and one can pass through it when it is open without any
knowledge of
chronomancy or control over the destination; but with specially crafted
magical amulets it is
possible to better control the gate. Moreover, the gate does lead to
Temporal Prime, but to an
unknown dimension that permits time travel; the destination is always
the gate of the inn itself,
but at another time. It is not known whether the mortal enchantments on
the inn had such a
side-effect, or if an unknown Immortal (probably from the Sphere of
Time) had purposely
opened it, or if it is the work of an Old One. The source and potency of
the magic that keeps
the gate working cannot be evaluated even by Immortals, and no one has
ever dared closing it,
assuming it was there for a good reason.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #610
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mystara-digest Wednesday, September 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 611
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
[MYSTARA] - off topic but good for setting in Davania
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
RE: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorists.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - [repost] Mystara and chronomancy
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
RE: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - [repost] Mystara and chronomancy
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, SteelAngel wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
>
> > well, if u only use D+D spells mages can only, er, flame things...
>
> If you use AD&D spells, mages become munchkins.
More firewood:
If you use the AD&D system, everyone become munchkins...
(Comes from me who GM GURPS...
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:07:47 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
> That makes me womder: so many of our technology now works by password or
> card, etc.--Couldn't some of these artifacts have been set up that way,
> or bybiometric scan or something, so that they are functional, but just
> don't work for the PCs?
That would be very reasonable. I would in fact not be surprised if even
the portable weapons have computers in them.
I think the main question is:
Do we want to limit tech. And to what extent?
I agree with Daly that this probably should be left up to the individual
GM. I wouldnt be suprised if the Almanac people are sceptical about it.
What I dislike is a worldlaw preventing technology from being invented. I
think the question of technology and how to use it is a very important
theme of the Mystara Setting.
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:14:59 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> > > Alphatia IS MChina :)
> >
> > Don't tell the MOrient people that!
> >
> Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
> under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the Atlantis
> stuff.
Alphatia is comparable to China because it is a far away advanced nation.
Culturally I´d say its a bit of Platos Atlantis gone bad + a bit of pop
eighties + 70s psychedelia. :P
Its also comparable to the USA because it is a superpower dominating an
entire continent. (Not dependent of the rest of the "civilized" world) I
would also see it as similar to russia as the "enemy" supoerpower, while
Thyatis being the allied superpower. (Seeing the rest of the KW as Europe)
Thoughts..
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:18:26 +0200
From: Christian Gotschi <ChristianG@vircom.co.za>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - off topic but good for setting in Davania
> Go to the bXuXsXhX Davania by visiting the
> http://www.bushcam.co.za/tip/webcam/africam.htm
>
> There is a webcam next to a waterhole in the wilderness XaX gXaXmXeX
> rXeXsXeXrXvXe in the sabi area!
> Relax and enjoy!
>
>
ok, so I know it's off topic, but I gota let some of you have a
window on the world.
(don't worry if it's slow, this is Africa you're trying to get this
from)
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:29:18 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Good question. Mainly because of the racial/cultural similarities
between Cyprians (Asians without the eyefold, though I like to toss in a
metallic sheen similar to a dragons imc) and Ochalea which was founded
by Cyprians.
There are also some intriguing building pictures in DotE which are found
in the Alphatian section of the gazette.
However, culturally, the main continent is not described as being
terribly similar. I explain this as Pure Alphatians had more influence
on the main continent while the Cyprians settled Ochalea. Simple
explanation and holds with canon.
James Ruhland wrote:
>
>
> >
> > > Alphatia IS MChina :)
> >
> > Don't tell the MOrient people that!
> >
> Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
> under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the Atlantis
> stuff.
>
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:04:07 +0200
From: Kristian Kramer <Kristian.Kramer@comsys.nl>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paul dooley [SMTP:ezaqwazy@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 4:08 PM
> To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
> Subject: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
>
> This is to all those involved with Davinia especially but all feedback
>
> will be ruthlessly plagerised for my campaign if I like it.
> Basically what`s going on in the desert SW of Thyatian Hinterlands?
> I`ve
> gotten an idea about 3 HUGE oasis (what`s the plural?) about 200 miles
>
> apart with the nearest about 500 miles from the Hinterlands. There are
>
> Wierd magical effects such as teleporting in the area can turn you
> inside out rumoured about the area and the westernmost of the oasis is
>
> ruled by someone known as the `Twilight Necromancer`. If I`m not
> stepping on anyones toes would you all be interested in the whole
> story?
>
[Kristian Kramer] Well, you're not stepping on my toes, that's
for sure.
I'm interested, so mail away! I agree with Håvard that the
Twilight Necromancer should be interesting.
But the Necromancer would have some strange magic, if a teleport
spell doesn't work as it should, then the Necromance spells would have
to have some strange effects also.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:50:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>
> Alphatia is comparable to China because it is a far away advanced nation.
> Culturally I´d say its a bit of Platos Atlantis gone bad + a bit of pop
> eighties + 70s psychedelia. :P
>
Of course, ultimately, all these speculations are wrong, because Alphatia
is the Mystaran version of Michael Moorcock's Melnebone.
.
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:02:08 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorists.
United States? Power for themselves? When they willingly gave up power
and distributed power among the state governments rather than the
central?
I think you are caught up too much in modern revisionism...
Wassellj@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 07/09/98 17:17:55, you write:
>
> << Absolutely right, 100 percent. Never underestimate the power of the
> populace, especially when it is demanding justice--I think Louis XVI
> learned that the hard way :-) >>
>
> You are mistaking a popular revolution with what in fact happened - the
> toppling of one political class by another upcoming political class. That
> time in history you can see a well educated, influential and increasingly
> wealthy professional middle-class, taking on the aristocracy. Similarly at
> the same time we saw a professional middle-class, who sought more political
> power take on their colonial overlords in the developing United States.
>
> They sought power for themselves not the general populace.
> Do not place too much emphasis on the power of the populace.
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:06:56 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
Jesse LaBranche wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I was just wondering if someone could answer me this...
>
> I noticed, recently, that Blackmoor appears both in Mystara and on Greyhawk.
> What is the reasoning behind this?
Basically, Gary Gygax put a ruined city called "Blackmoor" in the first
campaign he designed in honor of his friend Dave Arneson. But other
than that, it has no relation. One might speculate that he envisioned
his Greyhawk occuring many centuries after Dave Arneson's famous
campaign.
> Are they the same Blackmoor, or similar ones?
Mystara's Blackmoor occured more as a revival of Blackmoor. Agreements
were reached with Dave Arneson (many years estranged from TSR) and it
was developed officially for Mystara.
> What kinds of Technology are we talking about with these two civilizations?
In Greyhawk there is a tantalizing reference to skyscraper-like
buildings. But in Mystara's Blackmoor, all the techno stuff is in the
future of the modules. It comes directly from influence from an alien
culture complete with all sort of nifty inventions.
> Was module S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks based on Blackmoor at all?
No. But one could see it as easily related...
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse.
> vanquer@softhome.net
> ICQ. 8004143
>
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:09:51 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [repost] Mystara and chronomancy
Hi Herve!
Nice work. I've probably read this when you posted it way back, but if I
did I couldn't remember any details. I was somewhat disappointed by the
mentioning of Half-elves in a Mystara article, but since their
non-existance on Mystara is a somewhat controversial issue, I wont force
that here. I agree completely with you on the issue about Khornonus and
the Immortals of time as Guardians.
About the Comeback Inn: I remember a debate on this. Did we ever reach a
conclusion as for its origin?
Slipgates: What exactly are these? (I dont have Chronomancers). Do you
think these can be found in Mystara-Space?
All, in all good work :)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:11:52 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
The point is not correct or incorrect. It is that, faced with the same
object (gun, wand, tech, magic) the Mystaran's attempt at understanding
will be different from a person from a tech world.
Kaviyd@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1998-09-08 11:36:24 Eastern Daylight Time,
> jdaly@friend.ly.net writes:
>
> > A Mystaran on the other hand, would start reflecting on what elements
> > went into the design. Does the magic seem more pyromantic or
> > aeromantic? Does it conduct the magic through pure gold or silver? Does
> > it focus the power through a gem? A magical lens perhaps?
> >
> > You see, a Mystaran would not be able to reproduce technology for the
> > simple reason that his assumptions are all wrong! There are no other
> > explanations needed.
>
> Actually, within the context of his own world a Mystaran's assumptions are
> actually correct, as proven by the success of magic use in that world. And
> the fact that these assumptions are correct on Mystara would seriously
> interfere with the workings of any mechanical device that requires molecules,
> atoms, and subatomic particles to behave in the same way on Mystara that
> they do in our world. Simply put -- if earth, air, fire, and water are
> literal
> elements, then from the molecular level down all of our familiar laws of
> physics fall apart. Only at the gross, visible level can we count on our real
> world knowledge being applicable to Mystara.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:14:07 +0200
From: Christian Gotschi <ChristianG@vircom.co.za>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Kaviyd@aol.com [SMTP:Kaviyd@aol.com] said:
>Running water would be possible on Mystara -- since it is not based
on the
>actions of particles below the visible level, a system for
delivering running
>water would work just fine on Mystara. Developing the necessary
>infrastructure,
>of course, is another matter entirely.
>
>However, the electrical generator would be much less reliable,
involving as it
>does that mystical force known as electricity. Since electricity
is based on
>the interactions of subatomic particles, there is no reason to
believe that an
>electrical generator based on real world physics would work the
same way
>on Mystara. Only a gnome should have any real chance of coming up
with
>an electrical generator -- and even for him it would be dangerous
and
>unreliable.
But that's like saying 'bricks are unstable in Mystara, but houses aren't '
(and remember, houses are build of bricks)
(sorry but that's the physicist in me)
Don't get me wrong, I consider tech to work, but no one has gone that way.
I'd like to have a few adventures where 'High tech' people are transported
to Mystara, they can keep their guns, tanks, whatever, and see how they do.
Also what about gunpowder has been invented several times, but each time the
nation that made it was destroyed by aliphatia?
(This is like the gurps fantasy setting)
(and now aliphatia is gone.....MU HA HA HA HA)
Christian Götschi
mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za
Developer at Vircom
http://www.vircom.co.za
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:13:30 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Btw, I was right; Mystara/D&D does have a fabricate spell: L.5, listed
in the Player's guide to Alphatia. I wonder what a "one person alotment"
of, say, G-Fed Full Battle Armor (with built in Plasma Weapon) would look
like..
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:17:42 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Daly wrote:
(On figuring out how tech works)
> A Mystaran on the other hand, would start reflecting on what elements
> went into the design. Does the magic seem more pyromantic or
> aeromantic? Does it conduct the magic through pure gold or silver? Does
> it focus the power through a gem? A magical lens perhaps?
This could be the basics of Technomancy. Was that what you had in mind?
> You see, a Mystaran would not be able to reproduce technology for the
> simple reason that his assumptions are all wrong! There are no other
> explanations needed.
I agree completely.
> If your player says, "I am going to build a huge generator in that old
> mill. Using water power, I will give my peasants running water and
> electric lights, thus proving myself the greatest lord of Norwold!",
> then you simply say he cannot fathom such a device.
> Even if the player fully describes how to build such a thing. Even if
> he says, in a somewhat overly condescending tone, "Well, such a device
> is really quite simple. Anyone can think of it."
>
> Forget it! He cannot conceive it. Beyond his ability. Period. No
> need for extra, unwieldy rules.
Unless ofcourse, you want your campaign to go completely bananas. Could be
fun...for a while.. Its like playing orcs as presented in Orcs of Thar...
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:22:29 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> > Alphatia is comparable to China because it is a far away advanced nation.
> > Culturally I´d say its a bit of Platos Atlantis gone bad + a bit of pop
> > eighties + 70s psychedelia. :P
> >
> Of course, ultimately, all these speculations are wrong, because Alphatia
> is the Mystaran version of Michael Moorcock's Melnebone.
Really? Hmm..I have to start reading Moorcock. Which book should I read
frist?
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:37:25 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> Btw, I was right; Mystara/D&D does have a fabricate spell: L.5, listed
> in the Player's guide to Alphatia. I wonder what a "one person alotment"
> of, say, G-Fed Full Battle Armor (with built in Plasma Weapon) would look
> like..
Is this a good reason not to introduce technology or a good reason to
scrap the magic system of the XD&D game?....
Håvard, attempting to be retorical.
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:05:51 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>
> Really? Hmm..I have to start reading Moorcock. Which book should I read
> frist?
>
I'd recomend "Elric of Melnebone" as the first one, since it is the first
in the Elric saga. Some of his other series' are good, too, but IMO the
Elric stuff is the best, at least of the ones I've read.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:13:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote:
> This suggests a more sinister role for the merchant houses of Darokin -- for
> of
> course they are the main kingmakers and power brokers of the Known World.
> By their control of trade in various areas they can manipulate the politics of
> the region. Even if foreign powers figure out what they are up to, they are
> not
> inclined to make war on Darokin but to try to befriend rival houses of
> whichever
> house is creating problems for them. Since the various houses cannot openly
> fight each other, they manipulate other nations into doing their dirty work
> for
> them. They have actually been doing this for several centuries -- it is only
> relatively recently that they decided to openly set up their own "neutral"
> country. They managed to gain effective control of every nation except for
> the Broken Lands (which were too disorganized) and Hule (as the Master is
> yet another power broker himself, albeit one not aligned with the
> Darokinians).
>
> In addition to Darokin and Hule, the Thyatian Empire and (prior to the end of
> WotI) the Alphatian Empire were "superpowers" to which many smaller
> nations were beholden -- and Thyatis, at least, should have been vulnerable
> to Darokinian mercantile influence. Moving further west, the major powers
> of the Savage Coast seem to be Texeiras and Vilaverde, as they both have
> colonies extending from the Savage Baronies to the Arm of the Immortals.
This is _very_ interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Darokin actually
controlled almost all trade in the entire KW. And they don't like trading
with non-guild member either. This reminds me somewhat of the Merchant
guilds from the Birthright setting where the guilds controll trade all
over..
Håvard (sorry about lack of snippage on this one)
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:15:38 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
>
> Is this a good reason not to introduce technology or a good reason to
> scrap the magic system of the XD&D game?....
>
Well, Håvard, the xD&D magic system is kinda showing its age, but folks
are familiar with it, and it works (as such). You probably remember the
thread awhile back on introducing point-type systems rather than
memorization, but even that wouldn't have changed fundimentally the type of
spells themselves that are available.
Main thing is that any magic system is going to have pitfalls, and is
going to have spells that can be abused (with the qualifier that what is
considered abuse of a spell or magic system in one campaign won't
nessissarily be considered abuse in another. I.E. I'm very unfond of "deep
strike Teleportation raids" such as pop up in Mystaran canon from time to
time, and consider it abusive & disruptive, and would find ways to
"discourage" folks from attempting such things IMC. But some consider it
good creative use of the spell.)
Same with technology: a smattering, occassional/rare, intended to
*challenge* the PCs rather than give them neat free goodies (they may end
up with some goodies after the adventure, but you can end up with wands and
magic swords, too, so. . . .); point is IMO a tight lid should be kept on
it, especially since this is a fantasy world. I'd lean on the side of
excessive caution when it comes to tech items, probably "overcautious" on
"high tech" when compaired to my stance on "high magic". IMO, Mystara is a
"high magic" world (or at least several areas of it are), but not a "high
tech" one, so I think I'm on sound footing when I say I think tech should
be exceptionally rare and hard to aquire. In a world with neato skyships,
magic swords & wands, and gargantuan mechanoids, who needs aircraft, rifles
& granade launchers and tanks?
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:38:51 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [repost] Mystara and chronomancy
Slipgates: What exactly are these? (I dont have Chronomancers). Do you
think these can be found in Mystara-Space?
A slipgate is a rift into the "plane" of Temporal Prime (or the Demiplane of
Time, if u prefer). To cut a very long story short, while in Temporal Prime
you can move not only spacially, but temporally... So a chronomancer slips
to Temporal Prime, moves, and then slips back into reality at a different
time.
Slipgates of course provide fixed trips, so an individual entering Temporal
Prime from a slipgate is free to wander, but can only get back to reality
again through a chronomancer, or back through a slipgate. They are created
by a 5th level spell, and are as such an artificial phenomenom (though, as a
permanent 5th level spell, they are quite easy for a chronomancer to create,
so if there are chronomancers about IYC, chances are there are slipgates).
Barring artificial slipgates, natural ones may be created (they arent
mentioned in the chronomancer book tho, so it is really DM judgment).
Timestorms are created by creatures existing in two times simultaneously,
and they suck everyone within a certain area into Temporal Prime on a one
way trip (thats bad). Severe damage to the timestream causes reality to
break down on a dimensional level, in effect creating a permanent rift
(slipgate) to Temporal Prime. But this is a Bad Thing (the damage may in
fact be quite limited, to merely our own galaxy) so I guess such damage
would be repaired (or prevented) by the Immortals of Time.
BTW - Chronomancer, IMHO, is a Damn Fine Book. Anyway who is busily ripping
the concept of time travel on this list should read it (and then reread it,
because it is pretty bizarre in concept) because I think the guys at TSR
have done a damn fine job of this, explaining paradox and that sort of
thing. Chronomancers are basically pretty helpess, they are merely
observers, not shapers. However, though I am loathe to say such things, I
think they are better suited as NPCs, rather than PCs.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:43:20 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
>
> > well, if u only use D+D spells mages can only, er, flame things...
>
> If you use AD&D spells, mages become munchkins.
>More firewood:
>If you use the AD&D system, everyone become munchkins...
>(Comes from me who GM GURPS...
only if u let them. Always puzzles me that the DMs who complain that the
PCs are too hard always allow them to roll their stats on 4d6. :). 3d6
will solve your lifes problems at a stroke :)
Besides, the PCs ARE supposed to be heroes. In Star Wars the PCs are FAR
more powerful than any plebe stormtrooper (or just about anyone else, unless
they feature in one of the films :). And Conan the Barbarian is a bit of
an Uberfighter as well :)
Cheerz
Rob
(Yes Captain, he has bad mouthed AD+D. Continue with the operation, you may
fire when ready... :)
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #611
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mystara-digest Wednesday, September 9 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 612
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Mealiden
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Clerics and Magical items
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Clerics and Magical items
[MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark columns
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:39:56 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Here's my big question--WHERE ARE THE OTHER FEMALES? JA gives the names
of some pretty high-class bachelors, but the bachelorettes are not so
imaginative.
Hmmm...
Dolores Hillsbury (good luck to the poor husband :)
Any of the female hin sheriffs
Elissa Pennydown
King Everast XVI's two sisters
Zynnia of Aquas
Some noblewomen of Thyatis and NACE
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:33:45 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Mealiden
>mortal life. Mealiden, at least, would have been venerated only by his own
>people (and even then as a subordinate to Ilsundal) unless he did things after
>attaining Immortality that attracted followers of other races and cultures.
IMO Mealiden is also venerated in Alfheim in addition to Ilsundal, so he has his 'own' followers. And don't forget that he is a major Immortal in the Savage Baronies (Milan, patron of swashbucklers).
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:47:28 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> Btw, I was right; Mystara/D&D does have a fabricate spell: L.5,
listed
> in the Player's guide to Alphatia. I wonder what a "one person alotment"
> of, say, G-Fed Full Battle Armor (with built in Plasma Weapon) would look
> like..
>Is this a good reason not to introduce technology or a good reason to
>scrap the magic system of the XD&D game?....
Just out of interest here, a poll...
Who thinks that Fabricate, or any spell like it, is an Uberspell best
consigned to the deepest pits of Entropy for All Time?
And would the people who say "Yes, Burn It!" go on to clarify just what they
think mages should be capable of doing? OK, roasting armies is fine, but
turning a bit of silk into a shirt is not (assuming the mage can actually do
this in the first place...)
Seems that a lot of people think of magic purely as a destructive force, ie
10d6 (oh, 20d6 in D+D :) damage in 20' blast radius. IMHO this is merely a
tiny segment of what magic is capable of (ie Anything, if you have the
power).
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:50:21 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Davinian Deserts
>PS: I have this idea about a race of Giants living in that desert.
>Somewhat inspired by Dark Suns Half-giants. (Without having read a single
>Dark Sun product)
Dark Sun is a cool setting, totally and utterly ruined IMHO by the sheer
Uberness of the whole thing. If Net-Mystara had a non-Uber version, that
would be cool in my book. (Muls! 7' Elves! Thri-kreen! Psionics! All
cool stuff! Rolling characters on 150d6! Double hit points! Multiclass
options that would make a God cringe! Not cool stuff!)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:02:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, after all I've been absent a while :) , but
didn't someone from the MOrient project say long ago that Ochalea was
not, if fact settled by Alphatians or Cyprians until after they had
gotten their cultural influences from elsewhere?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:29:18 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
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Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
References: <199809081719.KAA19966@m4.sprynet.com>
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Good question. Mainly because of the racial/cultural similarities
between Cyprians (Asians without the eyefold, though I like to toss in a
metallic sheen similar to a dragons imc) and Ochalea which was founded
by Cyprians.
There are also some intriguing building pictures in DotE which are found
in the Alphatian section of the gazette.
However, culturally, the main continent is not described as being
terribly similar. I explain this as Pure Alphatians had more influence
on the main continent while the Cyprians settled Ochalea. Simple
explanation and holds with canon.
James Ruhland wrote:
>
>
> >
> > > Alphatia IS MChina :)
> >
> > Don't tell the MOrient people that!
> >
> Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
> under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the Atlantis
> stuff.
>
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:09:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote:
> reactor is an untouched version of the NoS. its pure technology. built by the
No it isn't. The SE reactor is an Immortal artifact, not technology.
Ethan
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:12:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark Articles
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Ezio Pignatelli wrote:
> tell you 'ok, do it'. So, I guess it is you choice, Glen, whether you
> want to send it or not. Of course, I hope you will be inclined to send
> it. :) Oh, and put me on the list ;)
And I hope he does send it. Unfortunately, buying the old articles in the
original magazines at my local comix store is prohibitive.
Ethan - Hopig I'm still on the list.
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:06:30 -0700
From: Joseph Elric Smith Servant to Arioch <kruch@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Well I would recommend the elric saga followed by corum, but if you are really
interested, white wolf has collected his works in a series of books with his help
that are in a numerical series, with the Elric series being around the 5 I do
believeKen
A moorcock fan since he was 14, or 20 years, and I got to him late.
:(
> Really? Hmm..I have to start reading Moorcock. Which book should I read
> frist?
>
> Håvard
>
> ***
>
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:18:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
>
> Just out of interest here, a poll...
>
> Who thinks that Fabricate, or any spell like it, is an Uberspell best
> consigned to the deepest pits of Entropy for All Time?
>
I don't think so. I don't think Fabricate can be abused any more than, say,
Stoneskin, or Globe of Invulnerability, or half the spells you can think
of. If creatively used, it can be fun. If used to get lots of "free" junk
in abusive ways, then methods of limiting it (like the changes to
Stoneskin) can be found, but that's true of just about any spell.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:33:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
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I like "fabricate," but with a couple of caveats:
1) it is one of the spells that I have consigned to the "Alphatian
magic" (only) list
2) No one really uses this to an "ill" effect--really, it's not that I
have decreed it to be so from on-high :) , it's just that Alphatian
characters IMC tend to stay along the same lines as I think the spell is
intended in the first place. It's both funny and pathetic at the same
time--here are these powerful mages who can make whatever they want, but
all they want is to live a "haute-coture" (sp?) lifestyle. Maybe it is
true for Mystara as in the RW: maybe some of the most capable people
really are just content to be "mediocre." (no flame intended:)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:47:28 +0100
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> Btw, I was right; Mystara/D&D does have a fabricate spell: L.5,
listed
> in the Player's guide to Alphatia. I wonder what a "one person alotment"
> of, say, G-Fed Full Battle Armor (with built in Plasma Weapon) would look
> like..
>Is this a good reason not to introduce technology or a good reason to
>scrap the magic system of the XD&D game?....
Just out of interest here, a poll...
Who thinks that Fabricate, or any spell like it, is an Uberspell best
consigned to the deepest pits of Entropy for All Time?
And would the people who say "Yes, Burn It!" go on to clarify just what they
think mages should be capable of doing? OK, roasting armies is fine, but
turning a bit of silk into a shirt is not (assuming the mage can actually do
this in the first place...)
Seems that a lot of people think of magic purely as a destructive force, ie
10d6 (oh, 20d6 in D+D :) damage in 20' blast radius. IMHO this is merely a
tiny segment of what magic is capable of (ie Anything, if you have the
power).
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:03:52 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Clerics and Magical items
> > But not, I don't think that it is reassonable to permit clerics new
spells.
> > But I don't think that this is reasonable for magic-users neither.
>
> Why not? Because of game balance or because it doesn't sound logical that
> someone who knows magic can expand his knowledge in new ways, unknown to
> the society he lives in?
>
> Håvard
To avoid the myriads of spells AD&D has generated over the years and no
simple Dungeon Master even can remember.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>
> Well I would recommend the elric saga followed by corum,
>
Yes, the Corum books are pretty cool. You can get some adventure ideas from
these works, too (numerous outlandish things happen), and some interesting
"backround" type stuff, too.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:25:13 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Clerics and Magical items
>To avoid the myriads of spells AD&D has generated over the years and no
>simple Dungeon Master even can remember.
nahh, thats good. 12 spells a level trivialises magic, IMHO. Not to
mention limits it to mere artillery.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:53:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
Hi there,
Ariel (my husband, the guy who does all the cool shadow stuff:) and I
were just discussing the relative effectiveness of "shield"-type spells,
and were thinking that it's not really a great help that they pretty
much don't allow for the caster to be offensive while behind the shield.
Now, I know that this was probably done to keep players from hiding
behind a shield during the entire combat, just picking of their enemies.
But it also brought a possibly disastrous scenario to mind: recall that
pic in the G:KoM book with the female spellcaster standing in the bluish
shield while orcish raiders stand around, unable to attack?
Weeellllll...what if, since she can't attack or else the shield will
fall, the orcs just walk right up to the other side of the shield and
stand there, bows and knives and whatnot drawn? The duration of the
spell runs out and the shield falls, and she's roadkill :) ! Just a
thought (oh, and a suggestion for something devious to do to unthinking
players :)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:29:45 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
> >But each bullet from the coaxial machinegun is an attack. That'll smoke
you
> >quickly (most abused spell probably isn't Fabricate, or even Wish, it is
> >Stoneskin).
>
>
> Lol, I agree (I dont use stoneskin). However, a burst from a machinegun
> would be 1 attack, just as a spray of thorns from an archer bush is one
> attack :)
>
BTW, I assume that a machinegun is a "normal weapon" which fires "normal
missiles". A "Protection of Normale Missiles" really could do wonders...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:38:17 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark columns
> This seems to be a defeat for us at this point. Our current recourse is
> to appeal to the DRAGON editor staff to encourage the addition of this
> information online. Or we can discuss and quote short passages from these
> articles, but we can not upload them ourselves. Sorry.
>
> Any alternative ideas?
>
Is there a chance to convince TST/WotC to give some space on one of their
servers to fans?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:55:21 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
They may have, but they would be incorrect.
Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, after all I've been absent a while :) , but
> didn't someone from the MOrient project say long ago that Ochalea was
> not, if fact settled by Alphatians or Cyprians until after they had
> gotten their cultural influences from elsewhere?
>
> Jenn
>
> valerya@hotmail.com
>
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:29:18 -0400
> From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
> Reply-To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
> To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
> References: <199809081719.KAA19966@m4.sprynet.com>
>
> Good question. Mainly because of the racial/cultural similarities
> between Cyprians (Asians without the eyefold, though I like to toss in a
> metallic sheen similar to a dragons imc) and Ochalea which was founded
> by Cyprians.
>
> There are also some intriguing building pictures in DotE which are found
> in the Alphatian section of the gazette.
>
> However, culturally, the main continent is not described as being
> terribly similar. I explain this as Pure Alphatians had more influence
> on the main continent while the Cyprians settled Ochalea. Simple
> explanation and holds with canon.
>
> James Ruhland wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Alphatia IS MChina :)
> > >
> > > Don't tell the MOrient people that!
> > >
> > Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always been
> > under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the Atlantis
> > stuff.
> >
> > ***************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:29:17 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
Hi there,
Ariel (my husband, the guy who does all the cool shadow stuff:) and I
were just discussing the relative effectiveness of "shield"-type spells,
and were thinking that it's not really a great help that they pretty
much don't allow for the caster to be offensive while behind the shield.
Now, I know that this was probably done to keep players from hiding
behind a shield during the entire combat, just picking of their enemies.
But it also brought a possibly disastrous scenario to mind: recall that
pic in the G:KoM book with the female spellcaster standing in the bluish
shield while orcish raiders stand around, unable to attack?
Weeellllll...what if, since she can't attack or else the shield will
fall, the orcs just walk right up to the other side of the shield and
stand there, bows and knives and whatnot drawn? The duration of the
spell runs out and the shield falls, and she's roadkill :) ! Just a
thought (oh, and a suggestion for something devious to do to unthinking
players :)
Hmm. I have to say, within this vast plethora of AD+D spells, i can think
of very few spells that prevent the wiz from attacking back :)
The blue glow in G:KoM is a Guardian Mantle spell, which says nothing about
the wiz not being able to attack. Also, incidentally, it isnt direction
specific, so even if the orcs do sneak around behind her they wont be able
to actually hit her :)
I think defensive magic is absolutely essential if a mage intends to survive
in the harsh dungeon environment (AC10 and d4 hit points is a bit of
downer). Personally, I dont use stoneskin (its just Foul), i replaced it
with a couple of spells from the Great Net Spellbook (Sarius' Golden
Circles/Squares/Triangles/Stars of Protection, if your interested - and if
Sarius himself is on this list under another name, respect for ya :)
OK, check this out :) (I am about to branded an Ubercharacter here!)
My Defensive Spells (usually) up before Entering the Dungeon... (16th level
wild mage)
Wildshield
Invisible Mail (complete wizards handbook, if anyones interested :)
Contingency (containing one of the aforementioned Sarius' spells :)
Finery & Freshness (well, protection from dirt - looking good is important
too! :)
Surge Selector (essential for a wild mage)
Any adventuring mage who doesnt use his spells to the max is really asking
for it, IMHO. I dont think its powergaming - if i was a Real Life
adventurer (if such things existed) if I could lay my hands on the stuff i
would have armour piercing bullets, flak jacket, tank, Stinger missile, and
everything else to survive in a tough world :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:51:25 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
>BTW, I assume that a machinegun is a "normal weapon" which fires "normal
>missiles". A "Protection of Normale Missiles" really could do wonders...
:)
that one had already been pulled out, and derided, as the assumption is
being made that a Mystaran machinegun could use enchanted bullets :)
Oil of Impact on a machinegun belt :)
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:11:28 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
At 17.35 08/09/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>Or do you think that it is the mages lot in life to be a mobile howitzer,
>who is unable to use magic to turn a block of wood into a chair?
I don't know how this "Fabricate" spell works, anyway IMO it's far more
cheaper to make a chair the standard way, than using a spell.
IMO the fact that you're a mage, doesn't mean that you should do everything
using magic.
***********************************************
* Vancouver, 6 September 1998 *
* Alex Zanardi clinched his second Cart title *
* ALEX RULES *
***********************************************
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:07:12 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 11.27 08/09/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
> And, once again regarding spells and rust monsters: good luck getting
>within range. Most spells, spell like attacks, etc. have considerably
>shorter ranges than the weapons of modern vehicles have.
True, but a single vehicle (for example the pickup truck with a .50 cal)
cannot hit more than one enemy at a time. Imagine a whole army assaulting
the truck from every direction, sky included. IMO you can stop some of them
before they get into range, not everybody (especially the flying ones).
Teleporting into the pickup would be another option too.
Just my opinion on this pointless debate.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #612
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, September 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 613
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[MYSTARA] - No longer about Karameikos since it's about Darokin
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
[MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuff...
Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
[MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:16:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - No longer about Karameikos since it's about Darokin
>This is _very_ interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Darokin actually
>controlled almost all trade in the entire KW. And they don't like trading
>with non-guild member either. This reminds me somewhat of the Merchant
>guilds from the Birthright setting where the guilds controll trade all
>over..
>
I'd say Darokin controls about 90% of the trade in the Known World - on
land. The Minrothad Guilds certainly have a big chunk of the seagoing
merchant traffic, though. The Darokinians don't have much of a naval
presence, whereas the Guilds are happy enough to ride the waves without ever
having to go to that nauseous land-place where they can't bob and weave on
the waves.
Glen
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:32:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
>Here's my big question--WHERE ARE THE OTHER FEMALES? JA gives the names
>of some pretty high-class bachelors, but the bachelorettes are not so
>imaginative.
>
>Hmmm...
>Dolores Hillsbury (good luck to the poor husband :)
>Any of the female hin sheriffs
>Elissa Pennydown
>King Everast XVI's two sisters
>Zynnia of Aquas
>Some noblewomen of Thyatis and NACE
>
Let's not forget the ladies of Karameikos; they're married, but still
important. Queen Olivia is practically the head of Karameikos' Intelligence
Agency, while Princess Adriana is the heir to the throne. There's also
Jamal, the head of Ethengar's Keshak.
Glen
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:56:42 EDT
From: Ambreville@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuff...
Just a quick note in passing to let you know it is now possible to access the
MMB site via a browser (Netscape) configured to read newsgroups. This allows a
speedy access to the MMB to download the messages from there, read
them/respond to them offline pretty much like the MML. I remember some of the
regulars on the MML complained that their PCs could not handle the I-Chat
setup or afford to stay online to browse through the excessively slow MMB.
This may be an answer
Else, I've been following the discussion about the Princess Ark. I'm not
entirely surprised by the response. (Thanks Harold for trying to push the
issue on your side.) This leaves only one option -- I think -- which would
entail providing these files on a one-on-one, for-personal-use-only basis.
That might work, although the logistics could be a real pain. Unfortunately,
WotC may shoot this down on the grounds that people with these files may turn
around and paste them all over their web sites anyway... That's bound to
happen, and that's probably why WotC-TSR won't readily cooperate with these
sorts of request (just a guess on my part). It's a shame because Mystara is
out of print, has been for years, and there are no plans for reviving the
setting from my discussions with Peter Adkison. Frankly, I don't see what the
problem could be at this point -- this is really old stuff now. Although I am
the author of the Princess Ark, TSR owns the rights to all previously
published material about the Princess Ark, as per my contracts with the Dragon
Magazine. So, I can't really decide to ignore TSR and pass the stuff along
either.
Harold, who was this that decided not to post the Princess Ark stuff? Was it
Dragon Magazine staffers? WotC legal dept.? TSR game creatives? Upper TSR/WotC
management? All of the above? It would help if I knew. I doubt I can do better
than you did in pursuing this issue further, but I can still try. Thanks
Bruce Heard
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:01:37 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
In a message dated 1998-09-09 13:27:55 Eastern Daylight Time,
solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes:
> Here's my big question--WHERE ARE THE OTHER FEMALES? JA gives the names
> of some pretty high-class bachelors, but the bachelorettes are not so
> imaginative.
>
> Hmmm...
> Dolores Hillsbury (good luck to the poor husband :)
Also, she is pretty well tied up with controlling Prince Jaggar.
More interesting possibilities would be the two elven Princesses
- -- after all, they are both widows, and both relatively young for
elves.
> Any of the female hin sheriffs
> Elissa Pennydown
That takes care of the halflings....
> King Everast XVI's two sisters
... and that takes care of the dwarves. It seems that we now have eligible
women of all of the demi-human races.
> Zynnia of Aquas
Definitely! She is somebody who really should be developed more. She
must have rather exotic look, as she is half Alphatian and half merfolk,
and she must have been involved in some rather interesting intrigue in
trying to limit the damage done by her insane half-brother Zandor.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:01:14 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
In a message dated 1998-09-09 08:52:16 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no
writes:
> What I dislike is a worldlaw preventing technology from being invented. I
> think the question of technology and how to use it is a very important
> theme of the Mystara Setting.
I would think that technology in the Mystara setting should not be impossible
- -- just incredibly difficult to develop given the differences in the basic
laws of
physics between Mystara and non-magical universes where high technology
has been developed. Thus it was that the FSS Beagle's reactor became
unstable once it got near Mystara -- and it took the research of an Immortal
to come up with a reactor that worked properly in accordance with the Mystaran
physical laws.
So I think that ultimately the people of Mystara will develop an advanced
technology
- -- but it will be very different in its underlying principles from our
technology, and
they will have to develop it slowly and in small steps just as we did -- they
cannot
get a "jump start" from the technology of a universe that is like ours or that
is even
more advanced.
To cite one example -- if we go back to the old firearms debate, it seems
clear
that firearms of some sort are possible on Mystara, as a few nations along the
Savage Coast have developed them, albeit by means that would not work in
the real world or indeed elsewhere on Mystara. At some point somebody
probably will come up with a formula for an explosive powder that can be used
elsewhere -- but if your players give you the exact formula for gunpowder and
can prove that their characters have gathered all of the necessary
ingredients,
they will not necessarily have come up with a formula that works on Mystara.
The mixture may prove to be inert, or it may be too powerful an explosive, or
it may work -- there is no way that the players can determine that in advance.
But who knows? Maybe if they throw in a little jeweler's rouge, that will do
the
trick. It is up to the DM to decide just how difficult such an invention
would be.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:01:35 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
In a message dated 1998-09-09 12:11:37 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no
writes:
> Really? Hmm..I have to start reading Moorcock. Which book should I read
> frist?
Given that your intent is to see what Melnibone was like, you should
definitely
start with "Elric of Melnibone", the first book in the Elric series and the
only
one that really gives you a glimpse of life in Melnibone.
Oh -- if Alphatia is based on Melnibone, the designers at TSR toned it down
quite a bit. Melniboneans were, to put it mildly, rather callous in their
treatment
of their human slaves.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:58:08 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
In a message dated 98-09-08 15:44:46 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes:
<< Hey all,
I was just wondering if someone could answer me this...
I noticed, recently, that Blackmoor appears both in Mystara and on Greyhawk.
What is the reasoning behind this?
Are they the same Blackmoor, or similar ones?>>
depends on who you ask. some say the greyhawk blackmoor is that colony
khoronus established with his "way back machine". greyhawk's blackmoor is
vaguely defined so there is little to compare it with. i'd use my own
judgement into the relationship between the two blackmoors.
<< What kinds of Technology are we talking about with these two
civilizations?>>
once again this varies with each person. mystaros has a blackmoor timeline
that offers glimpses of blackmoor tech. myself, i have a different veiw of
blackmoor tech. the real canon references are based upon the DA series. but
those tech examples are Federation examples. the blackmoor drew heavily on the
Fed. tech but imo they were not direct copies. prince jaggar has a blackmoor
weapon. that may help.
<<Was module S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks based on Blackmoor at all?>>
the DA series of modules is all blackmoor. S3 is not directly blackmoor.
however, any module can be tweaked into blackmoor timeline. early blackmoor
was feudal and very sword and sorcery.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:58:02 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-08 13:23:20 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes:
<< > Assume
>>instead an M1A2 tank. The mage can't even scratch the paint.]
>However they CAN cast rock to mud and then reverse it. Just how long
>does the air in one of those things last? M1a2 has all sorts of goodies
>but nowhere is there any mention of any magical detections or
>offensive/defensive capability. Even better get your pet rustmonster to
>go and give it a kiss. Until all its visible parts are ceramic thats it
>for your MBT. When I was at uni a GM tried to get us with a sherman
>that`s where the rustmonster idea came from. It was my mage `YNGA SAEB`
>who polymorphed an ant into a rustmonster, charmed it and set it at the
>tank. the rentire party had to defend `Harold` as he was later known
>from any attacks until we got to the tank. He eventually became party
>mascot until the accident with ... Well that`s another story. <;-P
Let me see tanks... A quick look at the PHB (2nd ed.) says...
Color Spray- can knock the crew out of action for a few rounds at least.>>
nightvision sighting devices have an anti flare default.
Shrink (Reverse Enlarge)- can shrink a 20' tank down to about 2' in size.
Soccer
anyone? Oh, did I forget to mention that the crew, ammo, and guns inside it
were not shrunk- just the tank? Yeah. This works on 1 object- not a bunch of
them...>>
but wouldn't the gun and ammo (not sure about crew) be considered part of the
tank. and i am uncertain if i'd allow a crew to be crushed as a tank shrunk.
imo that is dirty pool. i'd shrink the tank and crew. and even shrunk, a 120mm
main gun projectile (HEAT or SABOT round) would put a hurt on anything it hits
as its maingun would still be in the rifle calibre range (5-7mm)
<<Grease- this might be a little lame, but grease the treads, better chances
of them
slipping. Something tanks are notorious for without the spell...>>
i am not sure if grease would hurt them. track tension insures the drive
sprockets have a firm grasp with the contact slots of the tracks. throwing a
track is more the result of accumulation of mud which builds up to foul the
track drive sprocket interface. even then, the m1 series has counters to mud
buildup.
<<Hold Portal- Half way down the barrel (or so) there is an ejection port.
What happens
if that can't open to eject a spent shell?>>
you mean the breach. not sure if a hold portal could get behind the shell to
lock the breach mechanism. a 120mm shell is a big and heavy piece of metal.
<<Darkness (Reverse Light)- cast directly on the barrel, or viewing port.
This
may not
harm the tank, but makes it a lot safer to approach.>>
you almost had me here....but since this is the M1a2 it is but an
inconvenience. thanks to real time recon and command and control
communications a blind tank can see with the eyes of other tanks, air recon,
and/or satelites. not to mention that tanks travel in platoons with mechanized
infantry close at hand. anyone coming close to a blinded tank would be facing
its stablemates as well. and not to forget other combined arms tactics such as
air support and arty. all of this is moot if we are going with a solitary
tank. about as moot as an adversary getting close enough to cast the spell
before getting a taste of coaxial or hatch mounted machine guns.
<<Magic Missile- this can take shells right out of the air.>>
against a tank, magic missile is a good if not underpowered option. using it
to shoot fired shells out of the air is not feasible. even subsonic travelling
munitions would be too fast to aim at. heck you cannot even see the things.
<< Phantasmal Force- the already limited senses of the crew make this spell
very potent
you can often make much more realistic phantasms as they can't disbelieve
because
of sound and the like.>>
hmm....pretty good theory but....sighting and vision aids would negate these
imo. the sight circuitry would see what was really there based on light
enhancement and IR signature. the sight would not be fooled since it is a
machine and not subject to believing illusions.
<<Sleep- this can incapacitate the crew enough to allow the tank to drop off
of a chasm
or the like.>>
if a spell can be ruled to penetrate armour and the mage can get close enough
then this might work. i doubt a tank with sleeping crew would go out of
control. it would just stop in its tracks.
<<Unseen servant- The most under-used powerful thing in the game. Have one of
these
go up and wrap itself around the end of the barrel. when that shell
fires...>>
hmm.....i think you'd be short an unseen servant. projectile velocity should
punch through any hanger on unseen servant. the thing can only take 6 hps
worth of damage.
<< Wall of Fog- you can't hit what you can't see... Isn't that how it goes?>>
aye....but tank vision sights are designed to see through the densest smoke of
battle. these are modern MBTs designed for all weather, around the clock
fighting in worse case battlefield conditions.
<< Funny thing, all of these are 1st level spells that can be cast by a
wizard.
What about
higher level ones?
I'd be much more concerned about a 6-7 hd. creature or character than a tank
as a
first level wizard. Presuming of course that I understand the tank.
Of course if I don't understand a tank- then that means that the tank crew
probably
doesn't understand fantasy creatures either, and there are a whole lot more
things
that can be done to the people because of that. >>
there is another rule that applies. "if it bleeds it can be killed". i have
think that modern weapons have a psuedo-magical attack to them. high velocity,
high rate of fire they can lay a bunch of metal in the blink of an eye.
depleted uranium and HEAT rounds are near magical in their affects.
i am not trying to walk over your ideas. some show promise. all show that they
were thought out. i'm a military nut so i deal with a great deal of military
info on a regular basis. your ideas would universally work against 1940-55 era
tanks. the majority may work against 1955-78 era tanks. but the 1980-90s
series of tanks are just too advanced and offer too many countermeasures.
there are exceptions but discussion centered around the m1a2 so that is what i
focused upon.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:25:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
- --WebTV-Mail-1004414353-1026
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"Finery and Freshness," huh--and you call THAT power gaming?? :) Just
kidding!
Sorry about the mixup on that pic--I was away from my books (rare
event:) and thought that it was "shield." My general point remains the
same, though: its a wicked little twist for unthinking PCs, no?
Oh, BTW, I agree with your sentiments--why in ANY world would a mage,
who has worked his or her heart out to gain the knowledge he needs to
cast powerful spells NOT use them? I understand that moderation is
essential as a PLAYER, but a PC is not exactly walking around with their
own personal referee on their shoulder, know what I mean? The key to
welding the breach here is both good play and good DMing. In other
words, if the DM wants to moderate "power gaming" he should do so at the
outset, not let players get ahold of really powerful spells that he
doesn't want them ever to use.
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Just a thought on "shield" spells
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:29:17 +0100
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Hi there,
Ariel (my husband, the guy who does all the cool shadow stuff:) and I
were just discussing the relative effectiveness of "shield"-type spells,
and were thinking that it's not really a great help that they pretty
much don't allow for the caster to be offensive while behind the shield.
Now, I know that this was probably done to keep players from hiding
behind a shield during the entire combat, just picking of their enemies.
But it also brought a possibly disastrous scenario to mind: recall that
pic in the G:KoM book with the female spellcaster standing in the bluish
shield while orcish raiders stand around, unable to attack?
Weeellllll...what if, since she can't attack or else the shield will
fall, the orcs just walk right up to the other side of the shield and
stand there, bows and knives and whatnot drawn? The duration of the
spell runs out and the shield falls, and she's roadkill :) ! Just a
thought (oh, and a suggestion for something devious to do to unthinking
players :)
Hmm. I have to say, within this vast plethora of AD+D spells, i can think
of very few spells that prevent the wiz from attacking back :)
The blue glow in G:KoM is a Guardian Mantle spell, which says nothing about
the wiz not being able to attack. Also, incidentally, it isnt direction
specific, so even if the orcs do sneak around behind her they wont be able
to actually hit her :)
I think defensive magic is absolutely essential if a mage intends to survive
in the harsh dungeon environment (AC10 and d4 hit points is a bit of
downer). Personally, I dont use stoneskin (its just Foul), i replaced it
with a couple of spells from the Great Net Spellbook (Sarius' Golden
Circles/Squares/Triangles/Stars of Protection, if your interested - and if
Sarius himself is on this list under another name, respect for ya :)
OK, check this out :) (I am about to branded an Ubercharacter here!)
My Defensive Spells (usually) up before Entering the Dungeon... (16th level
wild mage)
Wildshield
Invisible Mail (complete wizards handbook, if anyones interested :)
Contingency (containing one of the aforementioned Sarius' spells :)
Finery & Freshness (well, protection from dirt - looking good is important
too! :)
Surge Selector (essential for a wild mage)
Any adventuring mage who doesnt use his spells to the max is really asking
for it, IMHO. I dont think its powergaming - if i was a Real Life
adventurer (if such things existed) if I could lay my hands on the stuff i
would have armour piercing bullets, flak jacket, tank, Stinger missile, and
everything else to survive in a tough world :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:32:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Oh, I know that there are plenty of women in the settings (please,
guys--don't think I'm doing the "whining women's lib" thing!!!:). I was
just talking about the "Eligible" section in JA, where there are some
really interesting male bachelors but the female bachelorettes are
(aside from Julianna, who I think is interesting) the Dragon Lady and
some typical wimpy Thyatian heiresses. I was really just wishing that
TSR had been a little more imaginative with the entries (like with the
dwarven ladies, who someone suggested earlier).
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:50:45 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
In a message dated 9/9/98 10:17:02 AM, you wrote:
<< Mainly because of the racial/cultural similarities
between Cyprians (Asians without the eyefold, though I like to toss in a
metallic sheen similar to a dragons imc) and Ochalea which was founded
by Cyprians.
There are also some intriguing building pictures in DotE which are found
in the Alphatian section of the gazette.
However, culturally, the main continent is not described as being
terribly similar. I explain this as Pure Alphatians had more influence
on the main continent while the Cyprians settled Ochalea. Simple
explanation and holds with canon.
>>
But Och. wasn't settled by Cypri, just "common Alphatians." The Cypri were
the people of the homeworld, and DotE says that their culture eventually
became what we consider "Alphatian." So I have always felt that the Ochaleans,
whoever they were originally, are the deciding factor as to the "MChina"
flavour. As with the Home World Cypri, the "Native Ocheleans" were conquored
by Alphatia, but won the culture wars over the centuries. The Alphatians seem
to pick up on the fads of the people around them (the Barons, the adoption of
KW customs in Glantri, etc), and it could have happened here as on their
homeworld.
This phenomenon fits with the old British Empire idea of "Going Native." You
could have Isle of Dawn'ers who ape Thothian dress and customs, and build
their towers back home in the Thothian style.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:01:31 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
In a message dated 9/9/98 2:05:14 PM, you wrote:
<<I don't think so. I don't think Fabricate can be abused any more than, say,
Stoneskin, or Globe of Invulnerability, or half the spells you can think
of. If creatively used, it can be fun. If used to get lots of "free" junk
in abusive ways, then methods of limiting it (like the changes to
Stoneskin) can be found, but that's true of just about any spell.
>>
DotE says that the use of the spell is controlled by the craftsmanship of the
caster. A lousy cook can make food, but it tastes awful. A poor tailor can
create a shirt, but it won't look any better than the skill of the caster. So
while the mage might be able to Fabricate a suite of Blackmoor power armor
based on a story he once heard, but it probably won't have any of the fun
gadgets.
Maybe if he had a working model to base his spell on he could get closer, but
now were talking about reverse engineering of the technology. So if as a DM
you don't want your local wizard Fabricating up batches of monster-thrashing
gear, you could decide the feat is beyond them, just as if the players decided
they wanted their blacksmith character to build a steam engine after seeing a
Gnomish contraption on the loose.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:10:46 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
In a message dated 9/8/98 10:23:40 PM, you wrote:
<< After all, the N. Italians did just fine, and they were busy slaughtering
each other and burning down assets, privateering each other's trade, etc.
>>
Hmmmmmm, adventure ideas, y'all? I know its not in their best interests to
tear themselves apart, but whoever said nations act in their best interests?
Read Barbara Tuchman's "The March of Folly."
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:17:01 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>
> Oh -- if Alphatia is based on Melnibone, the designers at TSR toned it
down
> quite a bit. Melniboneans were, to put it mildly, rather callous in
their
> treatment
> of their human slaves.
>
Quoting from the Player's Guide to Alphatia:
". . .A person of Aristocrat rank or higher may legally kill any slave,
for any reason or none; there is no investigation or censure. But he must
compensate the owner the money-value listed for the slave. . . .The slave's
life is usually one of heartbreaking, backbreaing labor from youth until
death; few are permited to learn to read; few ever hold a coin in their
lives; runaways are executed, by Imperial law."
Of course, the life of an Alphatian of the Servant class is little better,
and also of course outside of DotE one might get the impression Alphatia
doesn't even have slaves (and that everyone is a happy "citizen" of some
kind never mentioned in DotE), but as far as the Gaz. description, it is
pretty stark to be any kind of non-spellcasting Alphatian, but Alphatian
slaves have no protections and their existance (or not, and whether they
spend it in their own physical form or some other "experimental" form, etc)
is at the whim of their owners.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:27:43 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
>
> Maybe if he had a working model to base his spell on he could get closer,
but
> now were talking about reverse engineering of the technology. So if as a
DM
> you don't want your local wizard Fabricating up batches of
monster-thrashing
> gear, you could decide the feat is beyond them, just as if the players
decided
> they wanted their blacksmith character to build a steam engine after
seeing a
> Gnomish contraption on the loose.
>
Ahh, but there's the rub: if a Technomancer can make this stuff, then he
can Fabricate it. And, though some have suggested that only Alphatians
can/should know the spells in the AlphGaz, remember that it is planned that
ranking Alphatian Wizads will be in charge of the "Xenophobic Alphatian
Technomancy Academy", so that "restriction" won't, in and of itself,
prevent oportunities for abuse.
Which was and remains one of my concerns about the whole massive thing.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:31:37 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
> Hmmmmmm, adventure ideas, y'all? I know its not in their best interests
to
> tear themselves apart, but whoever said nations act in their best
interests?
> Read Barbara Tuchman's "The March of Folly."
>
I know. Thats one of my (few) problems with most of the Gazetteers:
everyone in Darokin is described as belonging to one big happy national
family (ok, with caviats; but the Borgias make the Darokinians look like
the the Cleaver family. C.Mauntea is Ward, E.Pennydown is June, I donno who
the Beaver is, I guess. Pick one). The place is positively tranquil, which
is too bad.
I think the best thing from a gaming perspective could be to have Darokin
become a region of feuding city-states, each wealthy, each intriguing
against their neighbors (and with internal intrigue to match), but, alas. .
.well, something for my campaign at least. 8-)
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:55:12 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>
> but wouldn't the gun and ammo (not sure about crew) be considered part of
the
> tank. and i am uncertain if i'd allow a crew to be crushed as a tank
shrunk.
> imo that is dirty pool. i'd shrink the tank and crew. and even shrunk, a
120mm
> main gun projectile (HEAT or SABOT round) would put a hurt on anything it
hits
> as its maingun would still be in the rifle calibre range (5-7mm)
>
That's right: hydrostatic shock would kill anyone the main gun hit.
If the M1A2 kicks ass, as Alex describes (remind me not to fight him in a
wargame), then just think what a realistic "Night of the Comet" group of
Tanks would be like, or some of the equipment from Traveller (your friendly
neighborhood G-Fed) could do?
Or the M-100 described in "The War in 2020", even?
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------------------------------
End of mystara-digest V1997 #613
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, September 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 614
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Campaign Trivia, new use for the D&D novels.
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone ... not sure
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:37:09 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>hmm....pretty good theory but....sighting and vision aids would negate
these
>imo. the sight circuitry would see what was really there based on light
>enhancement and IR signature. the sight would not be fooled since it is a
>machine and not subject to believing illusions.
welll, the tank isnt a golem. Illusions create illusionary light and heat,
so it would show up on their scopes. Just as it would looking through
water, a window, a telescope, or an IR sight...
> <<Unseen servant- The most under-used powerful thing in the game. Have one
of
> these
> go up and wrap itself around the end of the barrel. when that shell
>fires...>>
>
>hmm.....i think you'd be short an unseen servant. projectile velocity
should
>punch through any hanger on unseen servant. the thing can only take 6 hps
>worth of damage.
Unseen servant only has a strength to carry 50lbs, so i think not. In a
similar vein, however, there is a psionic skill called Kinetic Reverse which
you could use on the tank, so it shoots itself :)
><< Wall of Fog- you can't hit what you can't see... Isn't that how it
goes?>>
>
>aye....but tank vision sights are designed to see through the densest smoke
of
>battle. these are modern MBTs designed for all weather, around the clock
>fighting in worse case battlefield conditions.
Maybe, but spells stop infravision (ie IR sights), and solid fog has a
visibility of less than 1 foot. This is not normal fog. Think of it as
VIRRS smoke (visul and infrared smoke :) which tanks have to fool these
advanced sights :) The only sights on a modern tank are IR and image
intensification (thats just amplifying existing light, and as beyond 1'
there is no light that wouldnt work either.
>i am not trying to walk over your ideas. some show promise. all show that
they
>were thought out. i'm a military nut so i deal with a great deal of
military
>info on a regular basis. your ideas would universally work against 1940-55
era
>tanks. the majority may work against 1955-78 era tanks. but the 1980-90s
>series of tanks are just too advanced and offer too many countermeasures.
>there are exceptions but discussion centered around the m1a2 so that is
what i
>focused upon.
well, i would use the Tale of the Comet stuff. High tech items count as
magical attacks with respect to immunity to non magical weapons. Normal
weapons have no effect on tanks and stuff, enchanted weapons do 1 point of
damage per plus (a tank may have around 50hp, so you arent going to destroy
it that way, even with +5 weapons). The crew are most vulnerable tho.
Particularly to enchantment and illusion, IMO. There is simply no
technological defence against this stuff - if you think about it illusion
has no counterpart IRL, unlike fireball, lightning bolt etc.
Take invisibility. This would not only make a mage undetectable to any and
all modern kit, it would scare the living daylights out of the commander of
the USMC, who will be wondering how the hell that happened! Not to mention
things like teleport (you could just teleport inside the tank with your mate
Joe Fighter and his sword of beholder killing :)
A mage could sneak into the USMC camp with invisibility, and cast Fire Trap
on all their ammunition boxes :) So the next poor sod who opens it gets a
nasty surprise :) He could also cast Avoidance on all their tanks, which
makes them effectively unusable (unless the USMC have Dispel Magic, i think
not!). Repulsion would blow a tank a rather long way away, not doing it any
good at all. Blink would effectively negate a tank, as i imagine that in
AD+D terms the weapon speed of the guns wouldnt be so hot (say, 15 for the
big gun and 5 for the hatch gun?). Polymorph Any Object, u could turn the
tank into a dinner plate - as isnt sentient there isnt even a roll :) Wall
of Force or Resilient Sphere makes you immune to all the tanks attacks,
Resilient Sphere cast on the tank will almost certainly cause the tank to
shoot itself (2000m/s projectile hitting an inpenetrable barrier 1' away
from the barrel - i wouldnt want to be anywhere near that...).
Death Fog would annihilate a tank - it wouldnt be able to get through it,
because its solid fog, and it would melt in short order (or the crew would
melt, whatever comes first :) Death Spell is absolutely obscene, you could
probably kill off an entire company with this spell :) and it has an
immense area of effect. Spelldoor (a Glantri spell) means you could hit
them with Death Spell while on the other side of the planet, too :)
Control Weather could mean bad news for aircraft - yes, even today strikes
get called off because of bad weather, and Control Weather can create
hurricanes.... Reverse Gravity is without a doubt going to kill a tank (I
dont think an M1A2 will survive a three mile drop...). Sink will also get
rid of an M1A2, no rolls required. Perhaps the 9th level useless spell,
Crystalbrittle, now has a use!
Enchantment spells like Fear, Fire Charm, Confusion, Chaos, even Scare and
Sleep will all bypass even the heaviest composite armour. Shadow Walk means
the mage could pop up at any point, and unless we have Warp Drive the USMC
arent going to be able to do a thing about that. Demand could be a good
one, you could give suggestions to the commander while on a different plane
of existence!
A fair few spells (Hypnotic Pattern, Fire Charm, Rainbow Pattern) affect any
who look at it, which is bad news for a squad of tanks as all the
commanders, gunners and drivers get hit by it from 5000m. Wraithform will
effectively make the recipient immune to technological weapons.
Hallucinatory Terrain could have uses, making fake bridges and covering
pits, that sort of thing. Cloudkill if cast directly upon a tank would
appear inside it, despite the best efforts of the NBC system. Contingency
means the mage doesnt die, he teleport he dies. Acid Storm would be a bit
of tank melter, especially as it would hit the thin top armour of a tank.
There ya go, 101 ways to take out an M1A2 :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:39:02 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> Ahh, but there's the rub: if a Technomancer can make this stuff, then he
>can Fabricate it.
that the whole point. Fabricate can only make something the wiz is skilled
enough to make nonmagically. But if the mage is capable of nonmagically
making this stuff, than he can fabricate it...
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:42:22 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>True, but a single vehicle (for example the pickup truck with a .50 cal)
>cannot hit more than one enemy at a time. Imagine a whole army assaulting
>the truck from every direction, sky included. IMO you can stop some of them
>before they get into range, not everybody (especially the flying ones).
>Teleporting into the pickup would be another option too.
Mmm. It was discovered in World War 1 that a 0.50 cal can do a very good
job of mowing down whole armies... But the teleportation option is valid.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:11:36 +0200
From: Ezio Pignatelli <pignatelli@pd.astro.it>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board
Bruce Heard wrote:
> ust a quick note in passing to let you know it is now possible to access the
> MMB site via a browser (Netscape) configured to read newsgroups. This allows a
> speedy access to the MMB to download the messages from there, read
> them/respond to them offline pretty much like the MML. I remember some of the
> regulars on the MML complained that their PCs could not handle the I-Chat
> setup or afford to stay online to browse through the excessively slow MMB.
> This may be an answer
Hurra!
- --
Ezio Pignatelli - Dipartimento di Astronomia - Padova
Tel: +39-49-8293459 - Fax: +39-49-8759840
mailto:pignatelli@pd.astro.it http://leda.pd.astro.it/~epignat
- --
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:37:27 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Aleksei Andrievski wrote:
> Here's my big question--WHERE ARE THE OTHER FEMALES? JA gives the names
> of some pretty high-class bachelors, but the bachelorettes are not so
> imaginative.
>
> Hmmm...
> Dolores Hillsbury (good luck to the poor husband :)
> Any of the female hin sheriffs
> Elissa Pennydown
> King Everast XVI's two sisters
> Zynnia of Aquas
> Some noblewomen of Thyatis and NACE
Lady Arteris Penhaligion. Ofcourse, she is 22 in Ac 1000 so she is getting
pretty old by now. I´m planning to get her married soon in my campaign
which is set in AC 1000. (one of the PCs is interested, but he is just a
mere knight...)
Håvard
***
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http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:46:15 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Jesse>>
Alex>
Me again...
>> Let me see tanks... A quick look at the PHB (2nd ed.) says...
>> Color Spray- can knock the crew out of action for a few rounds at
least.>>
>nightvision sighting devices have an anti flare default.
This does not provide any protection to the crew in daylight, although I did
miss the point that the M1-series tanks have full NBC protection which does
consist of shaded ports that would interfere with such a spell.
>> Shrink (Reverse Enlarge)- can shrink a 20' tank down to about 2' in size.
>> Soccer anyone? Oh, did I forget to mention that the crew, ammo, and guns
>>inside it were not shrunk- just the tank? Yeah. This works on 1 object-
not
>>a bunch of them...
>but wouldn't the gun and ammo (not sure about crew) be considered part of
the
>tank. and i am uncertain if i'd allow a crew to be crushed as a tank
shrunk.
>imo that is dirty pool. i'd shrink the tank and crew. and even shrunk, a
120mm
>main gun projectile (HEAT or SABOT round) would put a hurt on anything it
hits
>as its maingun would still be in the rifle calibre range (5-7mm)
Since attached objects may be damaged as long as the tank itself does not
get
damaged from the shrinking process- considerable damage could occur to the
crew.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is shrunk- but this would not
apply
to those carried by an object. If so, then enlarging a castle wall would
also allow
the seige equipment and personnel carried by that wall to be enlarged as
well.
Also, any changes in size at all- try using the on-board computer system to
get
anything near an accurate shot off.
>>Grease- this might be a little lame, but grease the treads, better chances
>>of them slipping. Something tanks are notorious for without the spell...
>i am not sure if grease would hurt them. track tension insures the drive
>sprockets have a firm grasp with the contact slots of the tracks. throwing
a
>track is more the result of accumulation of mud which builds up to foul the
>track drive sprocket interface. even then, the m1 series has counters to
mud
>buildup.
Without friction tension would be greatly reduced- this is what my
consideration
was here. Would there be enough tension remaining to allow the "firm grasp"
to hold.
>>Hold Portal- Half way down the barrel (or so) there is an ejection port.
>>What happens if that can't open to eject a spent shell?
>you mean the breach. not sure if a hold portal could get behind the shell
to
>lock the breach mechanism. a 120mm shell is a big and heavy piece of metal.
No, I mean the ejection port. After the shell is fired, an ejection port on
the side
of the barrel opens to eject the spent round. It is not left in the tank.
This ejection
port could be held.
The loading breech could also be held. Going through the shell would not be
a
necessity as you would simply cast the spell after a round has been fired.
>>Darkness (Reverse Light)- cast directly on the barrel, or viewing port.
>>This may not harm the tank, but makes it a lot safer to approach.>>
>you almost had me here....but since this is the M1a2 it is but an
>inconvenience. thanks to real time recon and command and control
>communications a blind tank can see with the eyes of other tanks, air
recon,
>and/or satelites. not to mention that tanks travel in platoons with
mechanized
>infantry close at hand. anyone coming close to a blinded tank would be
facing
>its stablemates as well. and not to forget other combined arms tactics such
as
>air support and arty. all of this is moot if we are going with a solitary
>tank. about as moot as an adversary getting close enough to cast the spell
>before getting a taste of coaxial or hatch mounted machine guns.
These added bits of recon, satellites, aircraft, platoons, and infantry were
not
stated as part of the scenario for the tank. Yet, a tank in Mystara would
undoubtedly
be out the satellites at least. Taking a single mage against such a force is
rediculous,
but so is taking anything against a large number of anything else.
>>Magic Missile- this can take shells right out of the air.
>against a tank, magic missile is a good if not underpowered option. using
it
>to shoot fired shells out of the air is not feasible. even subsonic
travelling
>munitions would be too fast to aim at. heck you cannot even see the things.
Actually, large calibre rounds are visible to the naked eye. Another thing
to
consider is that the Mage doesn't have to "aim" the magic missile, he simply
needs to catch a glimpse of the target.
>>Phantasmal Force- the already limited senses of the crew make this spell
>>very potent you can often make much more realistic phantasms as they
>>can't disbelieve because of sound and the like.
>hmm....pretty good theory but....sighting and vision aids would negate
these
>imo. the sight circuitry would see what was really there based on light
>enhancement and IR signature. the sight would not be fooled since it is a
>machine and not subject to believing illusions.
Most of this "sight circuitry" and the "visual aids" are useless in the
daytime.
When a person's electronics say that there's nothing there, and he can see
the object with his own eyes- he's more likely to believe that the
electronics
are broken or acting up than he is to think that his eyes are deceiving him.
>>Sleep- this can incapacitate the crew enough to allow the tank to drop off
>> of a chasm or the like.
>if a spell can be ruled to penetrate armour and the mage can get close
enough
>then this might work. i doubt a tank with sleeping crew would go out of
>control. it would just stop in its tracks.
Since spells penetrate Jousting plate, Castle walls, and the like- I'd see
no reason
that they couldn't penetrate a tank. Getting close enough is a matter of any
one of
several spells (Jump, Invisibility, Phantasmal Force- for a few 1st
levellers). And
I imagine that you're right- the tank would be stopped in its tracks for the
next 5 min.
minimum. That's time for an incredible amount of useful spell-casting- not
to mention
if we deal with a higher level mage.
>>Unseen servant- The most under-used powerful thing in the game. Have one
of
> these go up and wrap itself around the end of the barrel. when that shell
fires...
>hmm.....i think you'd be short an unseen servant. projectile velocity
should
>punch through any hanger on unseen servant. the thing can only take 6 hps
>worth of damage.
I would be short an unseen servant which takes 1.5 times the damage as the
average
human- and that's enough impact force to set off a live round in the barrel
of the tank.
>>Wall of Fog- you can't hit what you can't see... Isn't that how it goes?>>
>aye....but tank vision sights are designed to see through the densest smoke
of
>battle. these are modern MBTs designed for all weather, around the clock
>fighting in worse case battlefield conditions.
This was more aimed at getting rid of those nasssty co-axial mg's and port
wpns.
actually. Although there are some sighting systems that can penetrate fog-
most of
them are in the tens of thousands of dollars- and are not provided to every
member
of a tank's crew. If any of them.
>>Funny thing, all of these are 1st level spells that can be cast by a
>>wizard. What about higher level ones?
>> I'd be much more concerned about a 6-7 hd. creature or character than a
tank
>> as a first level wizard. Presuming of course that I understand the tank.
>> Of course if I don't understand a tank- then that means that the tank
crew
>> probably doesn't understand fantasy creatures either, and there are a
whole lot
>>more things that can be done to the people because of that.
>there is another rule that applies. "if it bleeds it can be killed". i have
think that
>modern weapons have a psuedo-magical attack to them. high velocity, high
rate
>of fire they can lay a bunch of metal in the blink of an eye. depleted
uranium and
>HEAT rounds are near magical in their affects.
Depleted Uranium would not be any more powerful against unarmored opponents
than a normal round as all DPU's are is a very hard shell for penetration.
HEAT rounds are not very effective against unarmored targets as the burst
radius
decreases dramatically in the shaping of the explosive charge.
>i am not trying to walk over your ideas. some show promise. all show that
they
>were thought out. i'm a military nut so i deal with a great deal of
military
>info on a regular basis. your ideas would universally work against 1940-55
era
>tanks. the majority may work against 1955-78 era tanks. but the 1980-90s
>series of tanks are just too advanced and offer too many countermeasures.
>there are exceptions but discussion centered around the m1a2 so that is
what i
>focused upon.
I don't mind the conversation on these lines as long as the rest of the list
does not
get too fed up with the concept here...
I'll note that I did not use any spell higher than 1st to try to emphasize
the point. The
mid-level spells are actually much more effective against a tank though. One
of the
most effective being a "Heat Metal" spell.
The Chain Mail rules actually deal with tactical fantasy battles and compare
easily
to 70's warfare... That doesn't add in the spells of AD&D that would make
those
armies formidable enough to launch against the 90's equivalents of today.
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:54:19 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Campaign Trivia, new use for the D&D novels.
IMC Sir Flinn from the D&D novels is a Knight of the Order of the Three
Suns in Penhaligion. He has taken a commoner girl called Johauna as a
squire and he is quite famous because he is reputed to have battled a
green dragon. Thats where my campaign set in AC1000 and the D&D books go
different ways. I have no intention of using any more stuff from the D&D
books, but I thought this litle detail was funny. Also there is a Vassal
Knight in the Barony named sir Heinrich. Maybe he was the guy who later
write the novels..? ;)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:10:41 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
To the guys who gave me advice and suggestions on Moorcock books to
read:
Thanks :)
Håvard
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:20:04 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
>
> > Ahh, but there's the rub: if a Technomancer can make this stuff, then he
> >can Fabricate it.
> that the whole point. Fabricate can only make something the wiz is skilled
> enough to make nonmagically. But if the mage is capable of nonmagically
> making this stuff, than he can fabricate it...
Yep. This is why I am of the opinion that Technomancers can only produce
technological items through the use of magic. Thus these are
considered magical items and cannot be Fabricated.
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:38:35 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
>
> >
> > Is this a good reason not to introduce technology or a good reason to
> > scrap the magic system of the XD&D game?....
> >
> Well, Håvard, the xD&D magic system is kinda showing its age, but folks
> are familiar with it, and it works (as such). You probably remember the
> thread awhile back on introducing point-type systems rather than
> memorization, but even that wouldn't have changed fundimentally the type of
> spells themselves that are available.
> Main thing is that any magic system is going to have pitfalls, and is
> going to have spells that can be abused (with the qualifier that what is
> considered abuse of a spell or magic system in one campaign won't
> nessissarily be considered abuse in another. I.E. I'm very unfond of "deep
> strike Teleportation raids" such as pop up in Mystaran canon from time to
> time, and consider it abusive & disruptive, and would find ways to
> "discourage" folks from attempting such things IMC. But some consider it
> good creative use of the spell.)
Good points. What I mean to say (besides suggesting to scrap the AD&D
magic system) is that if combining the magic system with technology can
ruin your setting, making a few changes in the spell descriptions might be
just as smart as banning technology. (the latter will have more dramatic
consequences IMO)
> Same with technology: a smattering, occassional/rare, intended to
> *challenge* the PCs rather than give them neat free goodies (they may end
> up with some goodies after the adventure, but you can end up with wands and
> magic swords, too, so. . . .); point is IMO a tight lid should be kept on
> it, especially since this is a fantasy world. I'd lean on the side of
> excessive caution when it comes to tech items, probably "overcautious" on
> "high tech" when compaired to my stance on "high magic". IMO, Mystara is a
> "high magic" world (or at least several areas of it are), but not a "high
> tech" one, so I think I'm on sound footing when I say I think tech should
> be exceptionally rare and hard to aquire. In a world with neato skyships,
> magic swords & wands, and gargantuan mechanoids, who needs aircraft, rifles
> & granade launchers and tanks?
You're welcome. (Sorry, an Indiana Jones referance..)
You are right, that technology should be introduced with caution. A GM
should know that it could completely alter his campaign, but if he is
careful, it might just be plain fun. There is a vast difference between
giving a PC a laser rifle(preferably with limited energy packs) and
supplying armies with vehicles and heavy weaponry. Introducing a few
technological items might change the style of the campaign a litle, but
not neccesarily completely. In a cinematic campaign for example, swords
will not be completely useless even if you have laser pistols. (SW is a
good source of inspiration..)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:47:09 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> I know. Thats one of my (few) problems with most of the Gazetteers:
> everyone in Darokin is described as belonging to one big happy national
> family (ok, with caviats; but the Borgias make the Darokinians look like
> the the Cleaver family. C.Mauntea is Ward, E.Pennydown is June, I donno who
> the Beaver is, I guess. Pick one). The place is positively tranquil, which
> is too bad.
It is reasonable to assume that Darokin does have a dark side to it.
Poorly treated half-orcs of the working class. Wealthy merchants living
the manner of kings abusing the power they base on economical wealth
defending their wrongdoings pointing to the "democracy".
> I think the best thing from a gaming perspective could be to have Darokin
> become a region of feuding city-states, each wealthy, each intriguing
> against their neighbors (and with internal intrigue to match), but, alas. .
> .well, something for my campaign at least. 8-)
I like this idea. This would not happen at a time when Darokins neighbours
are strong and ready to conquer, but maybe now is the time. If only they
didnt have to live under the threat of those nasty Shadowelves...
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:16:12 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
> >More firewood:
> >If you use the AD&D system, everyone become munchkins...
> >(Comes from me who GM GURPS...
> only if u let them. Always puzzles me that the DMs who complain that the
> PCs are too hard always allow them to roll their stats on 4d6. :). 3d6
> will solve your lifes problems at a stroke :)
Yes. all ad&d campaigns arent neccesarily munchkin campaigns. A good DM
and good players can make any game great fun. AD&D is, however quite
challenging when it comes to avoiding munchkinism. One of the reasons is I
believe that the main focus of the game is (as presented in the books, not
neccesarily in the individual campaign), to gain levels. Goin by the
rules, the best way to gain levels is to slay monsters. Monsters are
usually found in dungeons. This doesn't actually encourage good
roleplaying. IMO it stimulates hack and slash. Also the rules are closely
defined, but have alot of loopholes which are easy to abuse if you like
that sort of thing.
The problem with GURPS is that it is a munchkins wet dream. It requires
strict controll by the GM and diciplined players. If someone wants to
abuse the system, they can easily create phobic lame and blind godlike
sorcerers. But if it aint cool, I wont let them.
> Besides, the PCs ARE supposed to be heroes. In Star Wars the PCs are FAR
> more powerful than any plebe stormtrooper (or just about anyone else, unless
> they feature in one of the films :). And Conan the Barbarian is a bit of
> an Uberfighter as well :)
Yep. This is a feature I like about AD&D. I like powerful characters who
are able to make a difference in the world if they work hard and are
smart. It can get a bit extreme though when one man can destroy whole
armies single-handedly. But this is a genre-thing really. What is strange
about AD&D is that in first level the characters are whimps, yet in 20th
level they are demigod-like heroes. This change seems a bit unnatural to
me...
> (Yes Captain, he has bad mouthed AD+D. Continue with the operation, you may
> fire when ready... :)
lol :)
Have you noticed that Hollywood loves using British actors are badguys by
the way? ;)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:33:13 PDT
From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" <chasnans@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone ... not sure
Hi mystarans
I'm not realy sure that Alphatia looks realy like Melnibonée as (i
think) it's better to live in Alphatia than in Melnibonée for a slave.
(I'm remaining of how they use slave to make music in Elric of the
dragons :o\ brr terrific)
There's other minor differences but i think "Alphatian way of life"
isn't as cruel as Melniboean one !
I think either with Pan Tang (i hate them).
Nevertheless, comparison is logical on other points ...
Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT
à mag@mel.teamlog.fr
ou chasnans@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #614
********************************
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mystara-digest Thursday, September 10 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 615
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
[MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
RE: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorists.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Tyrranical trade policies
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
[MYSTARA] - DMs for Savage Coast sought
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
[MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Warren.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:50:09 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
There seems to be some confusion here as to what a "common Alphatian"
is. There are scant references, and one really has to dig. But the
long and short of it is, the pale-skinned, dark haired Alphatians who
show the most magic potential are descended from the conquering race.
The copper-skinned, almond-shaped eyed Alphatians are descended from the
Cypri who were the conquered race.
BoBoII@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/9/98 10:17:02 AM, you wrote:
>
> << Mainly because of the racial/cultural similarities
> between Cyprians (Asians without the eyefold, though I like to toss in a
> metallic sheen similar to a dragons imc) and Ochalea which was founded
> by Cyprians.
>
> There are also some intriguing building pictures in DotE which are found
> in the Alphatian section of the gazette.
>
> However, culturally, the main continent is not described as being
> terribly similar. I explain this as Pure Alphatians had more influence
> on the main continent while the Cyprians settled Ochalea. Simple
> explanation and holds with canon.
> >>
>
> But Och. wasn't settled by Cypri, just "common Alphatians." The Cypri were
> the people of the homeworld, and DotE says that their culture eventually
> became what we consider "Alphatian." So I have always felt that the Ochaleans,
> whoever they were originally, are the deciding factor as to the "MChina"
> flavour. As with the Home World Cypri, the "Native Ocheleans" were conquored
> by Alphatia, but won the culture wars over the centuries. The Alphatians seem
> to pick up on the fads of the people around them (the Barons, the adoption of
> KW customs in Glantri, etc), and it could have happened here as on their
> homeworld.
>
> This phenomenon fits with the old British Empire idea of "Going Native." You
> could have Isle of Dawn'ers who ape Thothian dress and customs, and build
> their towers back home in the Thothian style.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:52:41 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
Can anyone provide a OD&D spell description for this spell? Alternately
give me the AD&D spell description so I can convert it myself. (I've
misplaced my PHB :( ) I need this for a litle project of mine.
Thanks,
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:23:02 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
This is _very_ interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Darokin actually
controlled almost all trade in the entire KW. And they don't like trading
with non-guild member either. This reminds me somewhat of the Merchant
guilds from the Birthright setting where the guilds controll trade all
over..
Well, you should take a look at my Mystaran Birthright conversion. Darokinian guilds *are* controlling most of the trade in that one (not anymore in my PBEM though, with various people's tyrannical policies and all :)
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:27:34 +0200
From: Christian Gotschi <ChristianG@vircom.co.za>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
<Ramble>
Phantasmal Force:
1) who uses the hologram approach in that you can wave your hand thu
it but it still stays about
2) Who uses the phantasm (mind-effect)
I love illusions, but hate it with all these strange 'you believe your dead'
and 'it disappears if you touch it' rules.
I treat all illusions like holograms, and if you save then you know it's a
hologram.
</Ramble>
Christian Götschi
mailto:christiang@vircom.co.za
Developer at Vircom
http://www.vircom.co.za
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex295@aol.com [SMTP:Alex295@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 1998 5:58 AM
> To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>
<snip>
> << Phantasmal Force- the already limited senses of the crew make this
> spell
> very potent
> you can often make much more realistic phantasms as they can't disbelieve
> because
> of sound and the like.>>
>
> hmm....pretty good theory but....sighting and vision aids would negate
> these
> imo. the sight circuitry would see what was really there based on light
> enhancement and IR signature. the sight would not be fooled since it is a
> machine and not subject to believing illusions.
>
<snip>
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:27:58 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Well, TSR did, because the proviso on the spell is that u have to know
how
>to make the item yourself before you can use a fabricate spell to make
it
>for you.
>
IIrc isn`t there a Red Steel legacy called `Proficiency`? use that in
conjunction with fabricate or another legacy `Craft item` and you can
really go to town. I actually had an inheritor with both and at 3rd
level I was already capable of great things (all my weapons were red
steel which I bought as ingot and crafted myself and so forth)
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:13:57 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorists.
They sought power for themselves not the general populace.
>Do not place too much emphasis on the power of the populace.
>
Fear instead the one man of will with a high powered rifle! <;-P
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:38:19 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Tyrranical trade policies
>
> Well, you should take a look at my Mystaran Birthright conversion.
Darokinian guilds *are* controlling most of the trade in that one (not
anymore in my PBEM though, with various people's tyrannical policies and
all :)
>
Yes; you should see how merchantilistic one realm has become 8-).
OTOH, at least one Darokinian is pursuing the "Kingmaker"/"power beside the
throne" scheme that has been advocated for them here (only they thought of
it first).
I might have to have a chat with that one. 8-)~
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:06:24 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> (Yes Captain, he has bad mouthed AD+D. Continue with the operation, you
may
> fire when ready... :)
>lol :)
>Have you noticed that Hollywood loves using British actors are badguys by
>the way? ;)
Of course! Its a fact which every Brit is proud of. :)
Must go, I'm having a friend for lunch...
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:08:04 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>>Well, TSR did, because the proviso on the spell is that u have to know
>how
>>to make the item yourself before you can use a fabricate spell to make
>it
>>for you.
>>
>IIrc isn`t there a Red Steel legacy called `Proficiency`? use that in
>conjunction with fabricate or another legacy `Craft item` and you can
>really go to town. I actually had an inheritor with both and at 3rd
>level I was already capable of great things (all my weapons were red
>steel which I bought as ingot and crafted myself and so forth)
Wow. Never thought of that. I'm impressed with that little loophole :)
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:15:14 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Phantasmal Force:
> 1) who uses the hologram approach in that you can wave your hand thu
>it but it still stays about
>
> 2) Who uses the phantasm (mind-effect)
>
>I love illusions, but hate it with all these strange 'you believe your
dead'
>and 'it disappears if you touch it' rules.
Mmm. In AD+D, illusions dont disappear if u touch them, tho in some cases
you automatically figure out that it is an illusion (Maybe im wrong, but if
so thats a house rule thats been around in a l o n g time).
I dont use any of this you believe your dead stuff tho. In the rare
instances where the PCs are been hit by damage affecting illusions I tell
them its real damage, but mark of illusory hit points, so the player thinks
the damage is real, and acts accordingly. Also note that illusions are
limited by an area of effect, so if a PC walks out of the area of effect all
the blood and guts oozing out of him will vanish.
Note that some illusions, like Permanent Illusion, are so powerful that a PC
actually can touch them if he believes its there (i think that with the AD+D
illusory forest druid spell, you could actually climb an illusory tree :)
Looking at the 3rd circle Delirium Tremens Dream Mage ability, this is
effectively an illusion, but unless disbelieved it is to all intents and
purposes real to the victims. So, the dream mage could whip up a dream
feast to eat, and those believing it would actually be nourished by the
food!!!
(Dream mages are COOL!!!!)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:22:22 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> that the whole point. Fabricate can only make something the wiz is
skilled
> enough to make nonmagically. But if the mage is capable of nonmagically
> making this stuff, than he can fabricate it...
>Yep. This is why I am of the opinion that Technomancers can only produce
>technological items through the use of magic. Thus these are
>considered magical items and cannot be Fabricated.
I reckon a Technomancer should have a limited spell selection. After all, a
Techno is above and beyond a normal mage in terms of power if he can whip
this stuff up. Only fair he suffers in some other fields - ie conventional
magic, which he's not supposed to be studying much anyway, if he is busying
himself with tech.
If the Techno doesnt get 5th level spells, or doesnt get access to certain
schools, than he may not get Fabricate anyway!
Though the approach of treating techno items as magical is quite a good move
as well.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:48:43 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - DMs for Savage Coast sought
Hello,
We (as in desperate players) are searching for a person familiar with both Savage Coast and Birthright rules to co-DM the Savage Coast Birthright PBEM, using the conversions I made some time ago. We already have one DM so the burden will be shared :) If any brave soul wishes to undertake this task, please contact me privately. Thanks.
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:10:23 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
> Of course, the life of an Alphatian of the Servant class is little better,
>and also of course outside of DotE one might get the impression Alphatia
>doesn't even have slaves (and that everyone is a happy "citizen" of some
>kind never mentioned in DotE
Maybe its like Paranoia.
Alphatia is full of happy citizens. Happiness is mandatory. Failure to be
happy is treason. Treason is punishable by death... You are happy, arent
you?
:)
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:16:07 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Question
>however, any module can be tweaked into blackmoor timeline. early
blackmoor was feudal and very sword and sorcery.
Indeed, in some ways more so than Mystara. Blackmoor is much more
feudal, with barbarians in the classic Howard tradition running around.
If you ever wanted to play in a REH, CAS, or Lovecraft-Fantasy (pretty
much the pulp magazines from the '20s), Blackmorr is your best bet on
Mystara.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:23:30 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
>DotE says that the use of the spell is controlled by the craftsmanship
of the
>caster. A lousy cook can make food, but it tastes awful. A poor tailor
can
>create a shirt, but it won't look any better than the skill of the
caster. So
>while the mage might be able to Fabricate a suite of Blackmoor power
armor
>based on a story he once heard, but it probably won't have any of the
fun
>gadgets.
>
>Maybe if he had a working model to base his spell on he could get
closer, but
>now were talking about reverse engineering of the technology.
Remember what you said earlier: it's based on the craftmanship of
the mage. Most of the wizards I know don't waste their skills slots on
the art/craft choices, like blacksmith, tailor, or stonecutting. It's
almost as though they feel obligated to take a bunch of languages,
planar geography, alchemy, et c.. Given that most of Mystara's mages
received their training in one of the big colleges (or at least the
really powerful ones), they would probably not have received the
artisian training necessary to properly use the spell, and thus would
not even have it in their books. The mage would have to have craftsman
training in the working of the "godsuits" before s/he could replicate
one.
On the other hand, there is that one artisitc Alphatian kingdom
whose name escapes me.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:32:01 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
> I think the best thing from a gaming perspective could be to have
Darokin
>become a region of feuding city-states, each wealthy, each intriguing
>against their neighbors (and with internal intrigue to match), but,
alas. .
>.well, something for my campaign at least. 8-)
I agree that that sort of inrtique would be more realistic, and
better for the campaign world...
But (and this explains Karameikos as well) the players need some
sort of refuge from the lands of adventure. They need a place to go and
rest where they don't need to be constantly watching over their backs
for the lastest orcish assult, and their (most-likely) homelands are
good for that. Not to say that they can't have adventure here, but it
would primarily be of the political type, with a lot of schemeing, and
much more money at stake. All out war would interfere with such, and if
Darokin really does control KW trade (I seem to recall that they feed a
bunch of other nations), then such a civil war would probably ignite the
entire KW (more so than even WoTI did; everyone needs to eat).
If the players homelands are constantly under attack, either from
within or without, the players may never want to leave (bad for DM's
plot ideas) or never return (equally bad). This was sort of the
reasoning used in the Companion Set, in the quasi-adventure where
Hendriks was defeated.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:36:38 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>If the M1A2 kicks ass, as Alex describes (remind me not to fight him in
a
>wargame), then just think what a realistic "Night of the Comet" group
of
>Tanks would be like, or some of the equipment from Traveller (your
friendly
>neighborhood G-Fed)
Even worse. I always pictured the GF as, at least in terms of
military technology (remember, the Beagle was a tiny exploration ship,
like the Enterprise, not a full-blown dreadnaught) as similar to the
Empire from Warhammer 40K: Angels of Death parading around in Terminator
armour with Heavy bolters (which, if you don't know, fire small shells
that explode once they've penetrated the flesh. Nasty.) and all the
other devices designed to rip metal to shreds. And don't forget the
Titans...
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:34:28 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> On the other hand, there is that one artisitc Alphatian kingdom
> whose name escapes me.
>
I believe you're thinking of Haven, one of the bigger and more heavily
populated of the A-Kingdoms. Mage artisans would certainly be appropriate
here (though they'd be artistic, not craftsmen, for the most part).
Stonewall, being one of the more "pragmatic" of the Alphatian kingdoms
might have some mages that specialize in skills like armorer, and have
dudes who use clockworks or whatever. However, even though a densly
populated kingdom, Stonewall doesn't have as many mages, IIRC, as some of
the other ones.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:51:51 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
The weakest link of the tank attack chain is the people inside.
what technology did in real life on the battle field was remove the
training gap. Anyone could use a musket, but only the nobility could
afford the expensive armour and swords, and spend the years of training
to achieve the right stuff. In game terms, this means that the tankers
are hideously inexperenced, on the order of first to third level. We're
talking Basic Set rules. The game inexperence would be the Achilles'
Heel of the tank: they would have effectively no saving throws compared
to the Name level characters who are most likely fighting it. Charm
person, polymorph other, death spell, et c., even sleep (which every
mage on the planet has), all would stop the tank dead in its tracks
(which means the possibly first-level mage has a new toy).
This was done in the article a couple of people mentioned, the
Sturmschtuz (sorry about the spelling) vs. Sorcery. It contained a
play-by-play review of a war game that was played between an SS unit and
a Evil High Priest's minions (an intersting aside: neither player knew
before hand that he would be fighting such exotic enemies). Sleep and
Insect Swarm were used to good effect, but it could have gone either
way.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:57:10 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
> If the players homelands are constantly under attack, either from
> within or without, the players may never want to leave (bad for DM's
> plot ideas) or never return (equally bad). This was sort of the
> reasoning used in the Companion Set, in the quasi-adventure where
> Hendriks was defeated.
>
I think these arguments, both as they relate to Darokin and as they relate
to Karameikos, are somewhat flawed. Who said there should be a state of
open warfair and continuous assault on everyone all the time? The PCs can
still find security in home and hearth. Assassins won't be striking them
every night, and not every trip to the tavern needs to end in a brawl
(though, IMO, many do; of course, initiated by the PCs themselves at least
2/3 of the time, not the DM).
The idea that [fill in name of realm here] must be a pocket of compleatly
secure tranquility in order for the players to be happy seems backwards to
me. As I said, not every trip to the market need be a tactical excersise,
but neither should it always be like a IRL trip to the grocery store.
At any rate, if that is the case, then one nation in particular should not
be called the "Kingdom of Adventure." 8-)~
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:01:59 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
>I reckon a Technomancer should have a limited spell selection. After
all, a
>Techno is above and beyond a normal mage in terms of power if he can
whip
>this stuff up. Only fair he suffers in some other fields - ie
conventional
>magic, which he's not supposed to be studying much anyway, if he is
busying
>himself with tech.
In Rifts, by Palladium, Techno-Wizards cast all of their spells at
half the standard power. They only really know how to use magic with
machines, and anything else is unfamiliar.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:06:53 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>Maybe its like Paranoia.
>
>Alphatia is full of happy citizens. Happiness is mandatory. Failure
to be
>happy is treason. Treason is punishable by death... You are happy,
arent you? :)
Paranoia was actually translated into canon D&D via IM3, The Best
of Intentions. One of Mazikeen's planes is called the Warren, where
people who are really quick to shoot strangers using magic (read:
mutants) with their nifty laser guns are ruled in an underground bunker
by an insane computer.
Related to the technology debate, Mazikeen was shocked by this
plane and is determined not to let technology develop on Mystara.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:11:10 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>No it isn't. The SE reactor is an Immortal artifact, not technology.
>
By the time Rad got to the NoS, it too was effectively an Immortal
artifact. The NoS had been so far removed from its original state, a
simple nuclear reactor, that Etinne was unaware of its mundane origin
(not the Blackmoor origin, but he thought that it was, at best,
"technomancy"). In the end of WoTI, if the players enter the NoS and
fiddle around with the computer, remember that Rad is amazed; he never
even knew there was an inside.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:24:08 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
One problem I have with restricting clerical spells is that, at all
levels of the game, I find that the party truly needs the healing
abilities of the cleric. It's great to humble them, but when they're
reduced to Cure Light Wounds, the party becomes paranoid, skittish, and
downright intractable; it's not very heroic, and they won't do anything.
How then do you resolve the paradox, especially if you want to run
a somewhat extended mission in another time? If it's a quick jaunt, the
lack of spells shouldn't be too much of a problem, but if the party will
be facing a full adventure or two, they'll need some sort of assistance.
The two most common methods of time travel for your average Mystara
party are the Comeback Inn and the Aelos Nexus (from DA1-4 and CM6).
The Comeback Inn seems to transform the characters; when they
arrive, they speak the language that Blackmoor uses, and no one ever
really comments on their money. Since more powerful magic than the
Immortals was used to create the Comeback Inn, it would seem possible
that the clerics are "transformed" as well. This would be nice, as there
are virtually no Immortals in the time of Blackmoor: the only two
mentioned are that Afridhi god (can't remember his name; wonder what
happened to him), which the characters probably won't worship as they
are no where near Afridhi; and, of course, there's always Frog... :)
The nexus is created by the Immortals with the express purpose of
sending their chosen warriors to Aelos' different time. Since they want,
nay need, the characters to succeed, it seems natural that they would
have set up some sort of contingency to supply spells to the party.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:22:56 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Warren.
>
> Paranoia was actually translated into canon D&D via IM3, The Best
> of Intentions. One of Mazikeen's planes is called the Warren, where
> people who are really quick to shoot strangers using magic (read:
> mutants) with their nifty laser guns are ruled in an underground bunker
> by an insane computer.
>
Yep, had a nasty run in with some Troubleshooters and Citizen SUK-R at the
Warren.
> Related to the technology debate, Mazikeen was shocked by this
> plane and is determined not to let technology develop on Mystara.
>
Yes, well, perhaps they sent him to the food vats. . . .
We had a roaring good time in MEM Sector. Didn't visit DOA Sector, though.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:29:06 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Paladins
>What's the catch?...How many "magic-using fighters" have you met who
can
>keep it LG?
That's what I liked best about the oD&D paladin: you just had to be
lawful. I always interpreted the paladin as like the Knightly Orders of
the Catholic Church during the crusades, like the templars and the
Hospitaliers. The difference between a paladin and an avenger is that
the paladin devotes her/himself to the full cause of her/his
church/ethos whatever, in an order. That's why you don't (or shouldn't)
have isolated hamlets developing paladins. They need to join up with
some religion established enough and large enough to support a full
knightly order. Avengers, on the other hand, while just as devoted as
the paladin, would probably find the concept of orders ridiculous.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #615
********************************
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mystara-digest Friday, September 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 616
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Answer
RE: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Valerias Energy or Matter? Does it matter?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:31:42 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Blackmoor Answer
>> I noticed, recently, that Blackmoor appears both in Mystara and on
>Greyhawk.
>> What is the reasoning behind this?
>> Are they the same Blackmoor, or similar ones?
In B2, The Keep on the Borderlands, there is a brief blurb on where
you can place the keep if you want to use the Greyhawk setting. It can
be in the Duchy of Tenh, the Theocracry of Pale, or somewhere else.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:36:11 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
>> Just curious as to why people think Alphatia is China. I've always
been
>> under the impression that it was inspired by Plato's Republic; the
>Atlantis
>> stuff.
>>=20
>I think it is for the saying in DotE that Ochaleans (clearly
>Orient-inspired
While the Ochaleans are inspired by the Orient, they are not
inspired by China. With obssesions with peace, enlightment, and the
development of the soul, Ochalea is based on Tibet. Of course, there are
some differences, since island-isolated is not the same as
gigantic-plateau-in-the-middle-of-nowhere-isolated. China's history is
simply too bloody and violent, as well as expansionistic, to fit with
Ochalea.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:33:36 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
> happened to him), which the characters probably won't worship as they
> are no where near Afridhi; and, of course, there's always Frog... :)
>
IIRC, Frog isn't really an immortal: he's a figment of "St. Stephan's"
imagination, gulling the locals into providing him with cheap (read: free)
labour for his Bootstrap Operation.
OTOH, there are more immortals in the Blackmoor era than that. Someone
once did a list (sorry, can't remember who, nor can I remember the whole
list) of who was around, but it would include all the oldest Immortals (the
ones who can't remember their sponsors and the like).
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:40:19 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Me too. But the Mass Production advance is modern assembly line
tactics.
>You dont even need that. You get Musketeers way before Mass
Production, and
>muskets were produced in sufficient quantity to outfit whole
Absolutely right. My point was, though, were technology to begin to
be developed on Mystara, magic would develop as well, and magic's got a
much greater head start. There would be "Wand-eteers" long before
musketeers. To use Civ, magic would start at something like Invention,
and tech would be at Bronze Working.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:53:05 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Valerias Energy or Matter? Does it matter?
Something started about this thread: is an Immortal's sphere
relative, or absolute? Reading Loki's description in WoTI and the
believed method of becoming an Old One, it seems as though you could
give up your Immortality to quest again for another sphere, but I mean
something more general than that. The Kopru, for example, interpret
Manawa as an Entropic Immortal, and Atzanteotl, according to Gaz13,
believes Rafiel to belong to Entropy as well. Is it possible that, in
some sense, you can belong to more than one sphere, or are the kopru
simply mistaken?
I've always thought that avatars can, in some degree, become
separate and different from their Immortal. This can be used to explain
some of the inconsistencies found in Immortal philosophy. The avatars
are not truly separate from the Immortal, but have radically different
personalities, possibly acting against the Primary (to reach the
Primary's ultimate goals) to enact the incngruent aspects of the
Immortal. While this would, to a mortal, indicate a separate entity
(especially if opposed to the primary), an Immortal mind can handle such
paradoxes.
My example is Bozdogan and Loki. I see great differences between
the two. Loki reveals in the lies for the lies sake. It is the path of
malicious trickery. Bozdogan, on the other hand, holds that the lies are
holy, used to achieve a more perfect existance of deception (this is
actually found, somewhat, in certain Buddhist philosophies of denial of
reality; it could be a very mystic way of looking at the universe). Of
course, Bozdogan seems to merely be the ultimate lie from the ultiamte
liar, but, using my system above, there could be an avatar of Loki
called Bozdogan who preaches, and believes, a path of enlightenment
thorugh deception, and would probably despise Loki, who uses lies to
degrade the universe, not to "grow". At the very least, Bozdogan seems
to show some degree of compassion for the Huleans.
Of course, the fact that both of them revere lies would make it
hard to figure out whether I am correct.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:02:55 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Restricting it...
>That makes me womder: so many of our technology now works by password
or
>card, etc.--Couldn't some of these artifacts have been set up that way,
or bybiometric scan or something, so that they are functional, but just
don't work for the PCs?
According to DA3, you couldn't even use the computers for much
unless you:
A. Knew Galactica. Yes, there are comprehend language spells, but
they only go so far. DA3 addresses this: something that reads
"Alt./Thrust Equalizer" could come out as "Spell of Rudder Control".
Such translation errors could really disrupt learning how something
actually works.
B. Knew the Battle Code. DA3 said that you wouldn't need this for
the lesser-restricted stuff, but if you wanted anything important,
especially military junk, you would need to be able to decode the alien
battle code. Coming from such an advanced society, it would undoubtably
be electronic and unbreakable even with real-world modern day computers.
C. Have an Implant. The most important. All of the aliens had a
surgically implanted device that allowed them to communicate with each
other and their computers (the robots had them built-in). If you didn't
have one of these, well, it would be like trying to use a real computer
without a mouse or keyboard. Unless an alien told you of its existance,
you wouldn't even think to look for it. Also, you can't get one except
through the aliens, and the Beagle was destroyed along time ago.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:12:12 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
> I think these arguments, both as they relate to Darokin and as they
relate
>to Karameikos, are somewhat flawed. Who said there should be a state of
>open warfair and continuous assault on everyone all the time? The PCs
can
>still find security in home and hearth.
I meant mostly as a psychological bastion of security. You're
absolutely right, that it's not realistic, but not every country need
devolve into civil war: you'd have to wonder why the country came around
in the first place. Darokin also needs to show a strong front, now that
the Master is a hop, skip, and jump away.
If Darokin fell, as the reigning traders of the KW, mass chaos
would ensue. I mean, at the level where borders are re-arranged, old
nations are obliterated completly, and new ones formed; basically
turning the KW on its head. Hmmm... you idea sounds better and better.
>Assassins won't be striking them every night,
You should see some the campaigns I've been in :)
> At any rate, if that is the case, then one nation in particular should
not
>be called the "Kingdom of Adventure." 8-)~
Absolutely. Karameikos has got to be the most boring nation in the
Multiverse. They don't even have social problems. Maybe Stefan has found
an artifact, "The Spire of Lethargy": everyone in the kingdom is too
lazy to do anything.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:39:29 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
>IIRC, Frog isn't really an immortal: he's a figment of "St. Stephan's"
>imagination, gulling the locals into providing him with cheap (read:
free) labour for his Bootstrap Operation.
Except that the Order of the Frog is far older than St. Stephen and
the Beagle. Most importantly, there are Frog "monks" who are clerics,
with spells, turn undead, et c.. Frog is not an Immortal per se, but
worship of Frog can entail clerical spells (long story IMC)
> OTOH, there are more immortals in the Blackmoor era than that. Someone
once did a list (sorry, can't remember who, nor can I remember the whole
list) of who was around, but it would include all the oldest Immortals
(the ones who can't remember their sponsors and the like).
There wouldn't be many, and of those, I don't think most would
care; Blackmoor never seemed to be much of a religious place. Korotiku
would only be concerned with the arenea. Blackmoor's not by the sea, so
that leaves out Protius. Nothing to preserve yet, so Ka is superflurous.
Thantos doesn't really matter, because he's always messing everything
up; his plots are a given. And so on...
Blackmoor modules were written before Immortals were created by
TSR, so there naturally is scant mention of the "gods". Another
important reason is that Blackmoor, especially Mystara's, is based to a
good degree on REH's "Hyperborian Age". The gods of REH aren't much more
impressive than the heroes (which are rather impressive). Conan and
friends are constantly killing gods, demi-gods, demons, et c..
Immortals, as now conceived, don't fit that role.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:15:13 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
>
> Absolutely. Karameikos has got to be the most boring nation in the
> Multiverse. They don't even have social problems. Maybe Stefan has found
> an artifact, "The Spire of Lethargy": everyone in the kingdom is too
> lazy to do anything.
>
Hmmmn. . .anyone remember the old Role Aids Elves accessory? Perhaps that's
where the Demon of Lethargy went. Stefan may even *be* the Demon of
Lethargy: it started out small (he was too disinterested/apathetic to deal
with his own problems, and let the Hin do it), and now it is spreading
throughout Traldara.
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:22:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
> By the time Rad got to the NoS, it too was effectively an Immortal
> artifact.
But not an artifact created independently of immortal interactions.
An Immortal made the reactor into the NoS.
Ethan
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:57:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
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Hmm...I'd like to give my ten cents on this one, guys, but I took care
of the Stefan problem long ago--I killed him off.Traladara is a VERY
interesting place IMC :)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:15:13 -0500
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>
> Absolutely. Karameikos has got to be the most boring nation in the
> Multiverse. They don't even have social problems. Maybe Stefan has found
> an artifact, "The Spire of Lethargy": everyone in the kingdom is too
> lazy to do anything.
>
Hmmmn. . .anyone remember the old Role Aids Elves accessory? Perhaps that's
where the Demon of Lethargy went. Stefan may even *be* the Demon of
Lethargy: it started out small (he was too disinterested/apathetic to deal
with his own problems, and let the Hin do it), and now it is spreading
throughout Traldara.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:26:49 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-09 13:52:34 EDT, eand@WPI.EDU writes:
<< On Wed, 9 Sep 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote:
> reactor is an untouched version of the NoS. its pure technology. built by
the
No it isn't. The SE reactor is an Immortal artifact, not technology. >>
hmm...the shadow elf gaz calls it an artifact as well as a nuclear reactor.
being a nuclear reactor, it is technology. if it were an immortal artifact
completion would have been quick after Raf spent a few PPs. instead he
inspires/guides his Shamans to build it.
so based upon that i would call the SE NoS a techno based artifact.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:40:30 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
In a message dated 9/10/98 6:09:37 PM, you wrote:
<< On the other hand, there is that one artisitc Alphatian kingdom
whose name escapes me.
>>
Bingo! One reason to restrict the knowledge to Alphatian Mages (Trade Secret)
Just like the various Fire or Air Organizations, there might be an Artist or
Craftsman groups and schools (" Welcome to Thaumaturical Engineering/Design
101 students. I'll be your professor for the next semester. My name is Prof.
Ambylmir. Now everyone take out your compass, plumbline and Fabricate Wand").
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:42:12 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
In a message dated 9/10/98 9:45:52 AM, you wrote:
<<The copper-skinned, almond-shaped eyed Alphatians are descended from the
Cypri who were the conquered race.
>>
But these Alphatians are a mix, n'est pas?
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote:
> so based upon that i would call the SE NoS a techno based artifact.
I would have to concur, after consulting the sages.
Speaking of sages..
I just read a few interesting lines about technology, Blackmoor, and the
NoS in WoTI, the adventure. Those of you who have the set, read the pages
dealing with 4000 years ago, and etc.
It seems that the NoS doesn't corrode technology, like I thought.
Those paragraphs imply that the World-Shield (as we know from the HW set)
plays around a bit with high technology, especially FTL travel or what-not
(the book says that Blackmoor blew up after re-discovering the principles
of Physics that governed the original Beagle's Engines!!)
Does that bode badly for pure technology?
Maybe so.
Ethan
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:34:12 EDT
From: DrklngMuse@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
In a message dated 9/10/98 7:58:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no
writes:
> Alternately> give me the AD&D spell description
Range:touch
Duration:permanent
Area of effect:9 cu ft + 1 cuft/level
casting times: 1 rd
...the caster can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits
his purposes i.e. a stone weapon, a crude idol, or a special trap door...
..no fine detail can be made, moving parts have 30% chance of not working...
Material component is clay worked into the desired shape, then toucto the
stone to be affected as the spell is spoken
Those are the high lights hope that works. I didn't find a OD&D version in
the spell listing.
Ryan (back to lurking now)
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:32:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
>
> > happened to him), which the characters probably won't worship as they
> > are no where near Afridhi; and, of course, there's always Frog... :)
> >
> IIRC, Frog isn't really an immortal: he's a figment of "St. Stephan's"
> imagination, gulling the locals into providing him with cheap (read: free)
> labour for his Bootstrap Operation.
Unless..
St. Stephan was secretly influenced by a croaking demon who was attempting
to gain true Immortality. The Demon (Fiend) visited Stephan in his dreams
and Stephan used the ideas he remembered from his dreams to serve his own
purposes. This in turn made the "Frog" famous, giving the croaking demon a
chance of gaining respect among the ranks of entropy. Maybe he is still
around somewhere....
> OTOH, there are more immortals in the Blackmoor era than that. Someone
> once did a list (sorry, can't remember who, nor can I remember the whole
> list) of who was around, but it would include all the oldest Immortals (the
> ones who can't remember their sponsors and the like).
I think that was Aleksei Andrievski, the man behind the Immortal Project.
Håvard
***
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http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:40:03 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
>
> >IIRC, Frog isn't really an immortal: he's a figment of "St. Stephan's"
> >imagination, gulling the locals into providing him with cheap (read:
> free) labour for his Bootstrap Operation.
>
> Except that the Order of the Frog is far older than St. Stephen and
> the Beagle. Most importantly, there are Frog "monks" who are clerics,
> with spells, turn undead, et c.. Frog is not an Immortal per se, but
> worship of Frog can entail clerical spells (long story IMC)
Sounds very interesting. Fits with the ideas I've suggested in my previous
mail. Either the Demon was already immortal or he had an ally immortal
providing spells for his followers. Any chance the Frog monk revival in
modern Mystara?
> > OTOH, there are more immortals in the Blackmoor era than that. Someone
> once did a list (sorry, can't remember who, nor can I remember the whole
> list) of who was around, but it would include all the oldest Immortals
> (the ones who can't remember their sponsors and the like).
>
> There wouldn't be many, and of those, I don't think most would
> care; Blackmoor never seemed to be much of a religious place. Korotiku
> would only be concerned with the arenea. Blackmoor's not by the sea, so
> that leaves out Protius. Nothing to preserve yet, so Ka is superflurous.
> Thantos doesn't really matter, because he's always messing everything
> up; his plots are a given. And so on...
Oh, there were Immortals allright. Maybe they weren't worshipped in the
kingdom of Blackmoor, but there were other cultures at the time. Also, the
galaxy is pretty big..not to mention the Multiverse....
People which were around, that I remember right now:
Odin, Faunus(probably), Valerias, Thanatos, Ka, Protius. There were
probably others that have fades since or have found other places to roam..
Verthandi and Sinbad comes to mind.. As for who were worshipped in
Blackmoor, I don't really know about that. It seems unlikely that the
culture was atheistic, but religion didn't neccesarily have a great
importance.
Blackmoor modules were written before Immortals were created by
> TSR, so there naturally is scant mention of the "gods". Another
> important reason is that Blackmoor, especially Mystara's, is based to a
> good degree on REH's "Hyperborian Age". The gods of REH aren't much more
> impressive than the heroes (which are rather impressive). Conan and
> friends are constantly killing gods, demi-gods, demons, et c..
> Immortals, as now conceived, don't fit that role.
Maybe the Immortals at the time preferred sending Demons(fiends) and other
servants to do their dirty work at the time. These servants could build
their own cults and be revered as gods. And then the conan-clones of
blackmoor could kill them and get the girl... ;)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:42:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> Hmmmn. . .anyone remember the old Role Aids Elves accessory? Perhaps that's
> where the Demon of Lethargy went. Stefan may even *be* the Demon of
> Lethargy: it started out small (he was too disinterested/apathetic to deal
> with his own problems, and let the Hin do it), and now it is spreading
> throughout Traldara.
I think I prefer the idea that Stefan is a mortal identity of Halav..
:)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:43:15 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
> Hmm...I'd like to give my ten cents on this one, guys, but I took care
> of the Stefan problem long ago--I killed him off.Traladara is a VERY
> interesting place IMC :)
NO! Thats not true...How could you...*snif*
:)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:45:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 DrklngMuse@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/10/98 7:58:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no
> writes:
>
> > Alternately> give me the AD&D spell description
> Range:touch
> Duration:permanent
> Area of effect:9 cu ft + 1 cuft/level
> casting times: 1 rd
> ...the caster can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits
> his purposes i.e. a stone weapon, a crude idol, or a special trap door...
> ..no fine detail can be made, moving parts have 30% chance of not working...
> Material component is clay worked into the desired shape, then toucto the
> stone to be affected as the spell is spoken
Thanks! But what spellevel is it. Does anyone have suggestions for an =D&D
conversion?
> Those are the high lights hope that works. I didn't find a OD&D version in
> the spell listing.
There isn't an OD&D one, so I need to convert it. :)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:55:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
> One problem I have with restricting clerical spells is that, at all
> levels of the game, I find that the party truly needs the healing
> abilities of the cleric. It's great to humble them, but when they're
> reduced to Cure Light Wounds, the party becomes paranoid, skittish, and
> downright intractable; it's not very heroic, and they won't do anything.
> How then do you resolve the paradox, especially if you want to run
> a somewhat extended mission in another time? If it's a quick jaunt, the
> lack of spells shouldn't be too much of a problem, but if the party will
> be facing a full adventure or two, they'll need some sort of assistance.
a) Your players need to grow up. Magical healing isnt around in the real
world.
b) First aid or similar skills. Youy can also allow herbs which restore
extra hit points combined with a First Aid roll.
c) have a friendly deity bestow spells to the cleric.
> The two most common methods of time travel for your average Mystara
> party are the Comeback Inn and the Aelos Nexus (from DA1-4 and CM6).
> The Comeback Inn seems to transform the characters; when they
> arrive, they speak the language that Blackmoor uses, and no one ever
> really comments on their money. Since more powerful magic than the
> Immortals was used to create the Comeback Inn, it would seem possible
> that the clerics are "transformed" as well. This would be nice, as there
> are virtually no Immortals in the time of Blackmoor: the only two
> mentioned are that Afridhi god (can't remember his name; wonder what
> happened to him), which the characters probably won't worship as they
> are no where near Afridhi; and, of course, there's always Frog... :)
This transformation-thing sounds a bit boring. If you are planning on
having the characters around for a while, wouldnt it be fun to make them
survive in totally alien surroundings, having to learn the language and
the culture?
As I mentioned in other emails. There are Immortals around. Many too. The
Blakcmoor people just arent very pious.
> The nexus is created by the Immortals with the express purpose of
> sending their chosen warriors to Aelos' different time. Since they want,
> nay need, the characters to succeed, it seems natural that they would
> have set up some sort of contingency to supply spells to the party.
They could provide the characters with an artifact supplying spells. It is
mentioned somewhere that there are artifacts providing spells to
worshippers of immortals who are dead or imprisoned. Arik for example.
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #616
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mystara-digest Friday, September 11 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 617
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Warren.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - The Warren.
[MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Problems in Karameikos (was Darokinian Houses).
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Fw: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark columns
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuff..
Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorists.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - MChina
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:58:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, SteelAngel wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
>
> > By the time Rad got to the NoS, it too was effectively an Immortal
> > artifact.
> But not an artifact created independently of immortal interactions.
I agree on this one. I dont think an Immortal neccesarily has to do all
the dirty work himself when creating an artifact.
> An Immortal made the reactor into the NoS.
Nope. The old ones did. Noumenna made it drain Energy, though.
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:09:08 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Warren.
>> Paranoia was actually translated into canon D&D via IM3, The Best
>> of Intentions. One of Mazikeen's planes is called the Warren, where
>> people who are really quick to shoot strangers using magic (read:
>> mutants) with their nifty laser guns are ruled in an underground bunker
>> by an insane computer.
Heh. I have IM3, but havnt actually read it in detail. I did notice that
the artwork in it looked like it was lifted right out of the Paranoia book
tho.
And Paranoia even mentions DND sector :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:49:20 EDT
From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
In a message dated 9/10/98 8:28:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes:
<< There wouldn't be many, and of those, I don't think most would care;
Blackmoor never seemed to be much of a religious place. Korotiku would only be
concerned with the arenea. Blackmoor's not by the sea, so that leaves out
Protius. Nothing to preserve yet, so Ka is superflurous.
Thantos doesn't really matter, because he's always messing everything up; his
plots are a given. And so on... >>
Blackmoor City is right on the water along with Glendower and Maus so Protius
may be interested in Blackmoor. Plus his sponser was mortal at the time
living in Blackmoor. Other Immortals like Ka could also have interest in
Blackmoor. Ka's primary interest may be in preservation but he has many other
interests. I'm sure a powerful Immortal like Ka would have followers in
Blackmoor.
- --- -- --Criptonite
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:40:52 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
> > I think the best thing from a gaming perspective could be to have
> Darokin
> >become a region of feuding city-states, each wealthy, each intriguing
> >against their neighbors (and with internal intrigue to match), but,
> alas. .
> >.well, something for my campaign at least. 8-)
>
> I agree that that sort of inrtique would be more realistic, and
> better for the campaign world...
> But (and this explains Karameikos as well) the players need some
> sort of refuge from the lands of adventure. They need a place to go and
> rest where they don't need to be constantly watching over their backs
> for the lastest orcish assult, and their (most-likely) homelands are
> good for that. Not to say that they can't have adventure here, but it
> would primarily be of the political type, with a lot of schemeing, and
> much more money at stake. All out war would interfere with such, and if
> Darokin really does control KW trade (I seem to recall that they feed a
> bunch of other nations), then such a civil war would probably ignite the
> entire KW (more so than even WoTI did; everyone needs to eat).
I don't really understand why you want to give the PCs a break. Besides,
being at war doesn't mean there are constant battles. At times, months or
even years can pass between warring nations without there being a single
battle.
And, if it isn't allout war, just constantly shifting alliances and
occational battles, there can still be trade, though its more risky. But,
should a powerful nation such as Thyatis gain the power, it will probably
not be hesitant to secure its interests..
> If the players homelands are constantly under attack, either from
> within or without, the players may never want to leave (bad for DM's
> plot ideas) or never return (equally bad). This was sort of the
> reasoning used in the Companion Set, in the quasi-adventure where
> Hendriks was defeated.
There are plenty of advantages of setting adventures in the local areas.
Or a campaign about PCs looking for a new place to live can be interesting
too. But each to his own campaign I suppose..
Does anyone have any concrete ideas on how Darokin could split into
fractions?
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:44:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - The Warren.
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
> Heh. I have IM3, but havnt actually read it in detail. I did notice that
> the artwork in it looked like it was lifted right out of the Paranoia book
> tho.
Jim Holloway. Why anyone wants to hire him is beyond me. He even did Orcs
of Thar.
> And Paranoia even mentions DND sector :)
yep, with short mutants who like to dig in the ground and pointy eared
mutants who like treas.....
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:50:54 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA] Problems in Karameikos (was Darokinian Houses).
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
> Absolutely. Karameikos has got to be the most boring nation in the
> Multiverse. They don't even have social problems. Maybe Stefan has found
> an artifact, "The Spire of Lethargy": everyone in the kingdom is too
> lazy to do anything.
Karameikan propaganda. A Karameikan freeman is litle more than a serf.
True he has his freedom, but the taxes are high and he has to constantly
watch fear attacks from monsters such as orcs, werewolves and griffons.
Traladarans may be somewhat happy with Stefan as king, but the fact
remains that Thyatians are better off that the Traladarans. Given a
chance they will rebel. (The just need a "Braveheart who can convince the
nobles to fight...)
Fractions within the church. Once Oliver Jowett dies, political chaos is a
fact. Civil war may not be far away.
Black Eagle Barony. If you are playing in Ac 1000 anyway.
I think Karameikos is a political timebomb. However, Stefan might be up to
the challenge, especially if he is Halav's reincaration....
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:56:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, SteelAngel wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 Alex295@aol.com wrote:
> I just read a few interesting lines about technology, Blackmoor, and the
> NoS in WoTI, the adventure. Those of you who have the set, read the pages
> dealing with 4000 years ago, and etc.
I must say I strongly dislike this theory, even if it is "canon". I find
it disturbing and highy illogical.
> It seems that the NoS doesn't corrode technology, like I thought.
>
> Those paragraphs imply that the World-Shield (as we know from the HW set)
> plays around a bit with high technology, especially FTL travel or what-not
> (the book says that Blackmoor blew up after re-discovering the principles
> of Physics that governed the original Beagle's Engines!!)
Can you give an exact quite of page referance? I thought the reactor blew
up because of a (failed) attempt to combine magic and technology.
> Does that bode badly for pure technology?
> Maybe so.
In which case we should ignore WotI. IMO.
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:14:24 -0500
From: "Thrydmon" <kmelby@skypoint.com>
Subject: Fw: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>Maybe its like Paranoia.
>
>Alphatia is full of happy citizens. Happiness is mandatory. Failure to be
>happy is treason. Treason is punishable by death... You are happy, arent
>you?
>
>:)
"Ah, I notice that you do not have any happy pills. Here, have some. What?
You don't need any? That frown on your face tells me differently, Citizen
Gone-R-BEE. Remember, happiness is mandatory, Citizen. I am always the
model of a happy clone. Try to emulate me, Citizen. What a nice smile you
have. I think that some happy pills will make it even wider, Citizen. Very
good! Here, have some more. Oh, I'm sorry, Citizen. I didn't realize that
too much happiness would render you unconscious. The computer provides for
everythin! Docbot!!" - Qoute from High Programmer Whatta-U-KNO.
Thrydmon, the Wanderer
Humble mage of Karameikos
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:26:36 -0700
From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson)
Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Princess Ark columns
Is there a chance to convince TST/WotC to give some space on one of their
servers to fans?
Jamuga Khan
Sure, there is certainly a chance. I am pursuing that avenue now.
Harold
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:41:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
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Also, what about Ordana? Thanatos (did he have his sirty little fongers
in something back then...:)?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:40:03 +0200 (MET DST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
In-Reply-To: <19980910233930.9357.qmail@hotmail.com>
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On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Nicholas Hudson wrote:
>
> >IIRC, Frog isn't really an immortal: he's a figment of "St. Stephan's"
> >imagination, gulling the locals into providing him with cheap (read:
> free) labour for his Bootstrap Operation.
>
> Except that the Order of the Frog is far older than St. Stephen and
> the Beagle. Most importantly, there are Frog "monks" who are clerics,
> with spells, turn undead, et c.. Frog is not an Immortal per se, but
> worship of Frog can entail clerical spells (long story IMC)
Sounds very interesting. Fits with the ideas I've suggested in my previous
mail. Either the Demon was already immortal or he had an ally immortal
providing spells for his followers. Any chance the Frog monk revival in
modern Mystara?
> > OTOH, there are more immortals in the Blackmoor era than that. Someone
> once did a list (sorry, can't remember who, nor can I remember the whole
> list) of who was around, but it would include all the oldest Immortals
> (the ones who can't remember their sponsors and the like).
>
> There wouldn't be many, and of those, I don't think most would
> care; Blackmoor never seemed to be much of a religious place. Korotiku
> would only be concerned with the arenea. Blackmoor's not by the sea, so
> that leaves out Protius. Nothing to preserve yet, so Ka is superflurous.
> Thantos doesn't really matter, because he's always messing everything
> up; his plots are a given. And so on...
Oh, there were Immortals allright. Maybe they weren't worshipped in the
kingdom of Blackmoor, but there were other cultures at the time. Also, the
galaxy is pretty big..not to mention the Multiverse....
People which were around, that I remember right now:
Odin, Faunus(probably), Valerias, Thanatos, Ka, Protius. There were
probably others that have fades since or have found other places to roam..
Verthandi and Sinbad comes to mind.. As for who were worshipped in
Blackmoor, I don't really know about that. It seems unlikely that the
culture was atheistic, but religion didn't neccesarily have a great
importance.
Blackmoor modules were written before Immortals were created by
> TSR, so there naturally is scant mention of the "gods". Another
> important reason is that Blackmoor, especially Mystara's, is based to a
> good degree on REH's "Hyperborian Age". The gods of REH aren't much more
> impressive than the heroes (which are rather impressive). Conan and
> friends are constantly killing gods, demi-gods, demons, et c..
> Immortals, as now conceived, don't fit that role.
Maybe the Immortals at the time preferred sending Demons(fiends) and other
servants to do their dirty work at the time. These servants could build
their own cults and be revered as gods. And then the conan-clones of
blackmoor could kill them and get the girl... ;)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:45:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
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Alas, it is true, he went out pretty much like Charles I of
England...(wicked laughter--HA HA HA HA HA HA HA)...
:-)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demon of Lethargy.
In-Reply-To: <17343-35F89FB3-5364@mailtod-221.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
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On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
> Hmm...I'd like to give my ten cents on this one, guys, but I took care
> of the Stefan problem long ago--I killed him off.Traladara is a VERY
> interesting place IMC :)
NO! Thats not true...How could you...*snif*
:)
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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- --WebTV-Mail-1969249947-237--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:30:30 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
>
> > Does that bode badly for pure technology?
>
> > Maybe so.
>
> In which case we should ignore WotI. IMO.
>
Just curious as to why you think we should ignore WotI on the basis of a
bad future for poor technology?
.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:34:03 -0700
From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuff..
Bruce,
The response came from Sparky with Online, but was the result of a
discussion with legal, marketing, and Bill Slaviscek. Perhaps one of the
reasons deals with a product proposal on the table to release some of the
DRAGON back issue articles on a CD-Rom. I don't think the response is
immutable, but for now TSR and DRAGON have requested that this not be made
available until further review and planning take place.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:50:21 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Terrorists.
> All right, then; let's talk about popular revolt...but the results are
> still the same--the people of an MRealm would never stand for such
> things...
>
> Jenn
Er, Jennifer, is it really necessary to send the mails you are answering as
an attachment? Please take a look at your mailing program. I'm sure that
you can turn it off.
Jamuga Khan
"The grace of the Mighty Khan would be assured."
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:35:26 EDT
From: Magesmiley@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
In a message dated 9/11/98 8:57:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
CRlPTONITE@aol.com writes:
<< << There wouldn't be many, and of those, I don't think most would
care;
Blackmoor never seemed to be much of a religious place. Korotiku would only
be
concerned with the arenea. Blackmoor's not by the sea, so that leaves out
Protius. Nothing to preserve yet, so Ka is superflurous.
Thantos doesn't really matter, because he's always messing everything up; his
plots are a given. And so on... >>
Blackmoor City is right on the water along with Glendower and Maus so Protius
may be interested in Blackmoor. Plus his sponser was mortal at the time
living in Blackmoor. Other Immortals like Ka could also have interest in
Blackmoor. Ka's primary interest may be in preservation but he has many
other
interests. I'm sure a powerful Immortal like Ka would have followers in
Blackmoor. >>
I
I seem to recall a passage in one of the immortal's descriptions that
immortals of the sphere of time were unknown to the men of Blackmoor, or
something to that effect. Anyone else recall this?
- -Mage
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:34:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote:
> There isn't an OD&D one, so I need to convert it. :)
There is an OD&D version. It's called stoneform. In DoTE, and the RC.
Ethan
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:43:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote:
> I must say I strongly dislike this theory, even if it is "canon". I find
> it disturbing and highy illogical.
It isn't illogical.
> Can you give an exact quite of page referance? I thought the reactor blew
> up because of a (failed) attempt to combine magic and technology.
Nope. The reactor blew because of the magical nature of mystara. (WoTI,
The Adventure booklet, page 3-5 or somewhere in there)
> In which case we should ignore WotI. IMO.
Why? We've pretty much gone along with canon in every respect in this
arguement. Now that WoTI has pretty much set us along the correct path,
you wish to deny it? There is no other supplement that deals with the fate
of blackmoor in so many words. It's only been hinted at, but never
explained - except in WoTI.
Ethan
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:30:28 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Mmm. It was discovered in World War 1 that a 0.50 cal can do a very
good
>job of mowing down whole armies... But the teleportation option is
valid.
>
>
In that case don`t go near Glantri with them having that teleport magic
spell. Imagine a fireball inside the tank. Can we all say brewed up?
<;-P
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:38:23 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - MChina
> > Alphatia IS MChina :)
>
> Don't tell the MOrient people that!
IMHO this MRealWorld matter is going too far. I don't need a copy of EVERY
RW country on Mystara.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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------------------------------
End of mystara-digest V1997 #617
********************************
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mystara-digest Saturday, September 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 618
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - Healing Immortal
Re: [MYSTARA] - Healing Immortal
Re: [MYSTARA] - Spelldoor
Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:41:05 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> > Color Spray- can knock the crew out of action for a few rounds at
least.
> >
> If you can get through the flash protection, and also regarding all this
> other stuff, if you can get in range without getting chewed up.
> A "Mystaran" M1A2 tank would probably have some magical protections
(fill
> in the blanks), and shoot "enhanced munitions", obviating your
"protection
> from normal missiles" excuses.
>
An absolutely useless argument as the attacking mage probably would cast
his spells from the backseat of a Tomcat or a Tornado.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:54:15 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
> 1. Clerics and Paladins are limited to 1st and 2nd level spells. This
is
> based on the event in HWA1 where the clerics of the Known World lose any
spell
> higher than the second level (first and second level spells arise from
the
> "purity of spirit") due to the immortals being back in time and not being
> around during that period of time. An option mentioned there is that
this
> does NOT affect druids.
>
This a point to be critized about these otherwise excellent products. The
author had no idea about D&D and used many AD&D ideas. According to WotI a
cleric (druid, paladin, avenger) without an access to his (or her) Immortal
cannot cast any spells.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:05:03 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> >
> In that case don`t go near Glantri with them having that teleport magic
> spell. Imagine a fireball inside the tank. Can we all say brewed up?
> <;-P
>
With the proviso that the Teleporting mage gets to roll on the "never seen"
(AD&D) or "casual knowlege" (D&D) table for the result. Then he casts the
Fireball inside the tank, roasting himself in the process. Nice. Reall
bright move. 8-)~
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:26:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> >
>
> An absolutely useless argument as the attacking mage probably would cast
> his spells from the backseat of a Tomcat or a Tornado.
>
An absolutely risible counter-argument, because what we are dealing with
here is a situation where *some* will be given access to technology (and
magic), not all. Try and keep up if you want to comment.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:58:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Francis Larivière <larf01@gel.usherb.ca>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
Hi, I'm new to this list. I would like to know if anybody has
information concerning the background of Demogorgone. Were're he come
from, what he was as a mortal and stuff like that.
Thanks
Francis.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:30:59 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>With the proviso that the Teleporting mage gets to roll on the "never seen"
>(AD&D) or "casual knowlege" (D&D) table for the result. Then he casts the
>Fireball inside the tank, roasting himself in the process. Nice. Reall
>bright move. 8-)~
or, he could cast that Spelldoor spell (out of glantri) and blow the tank
away from 500 miles :)
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:40:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Healing Immortal
Just wondering...Has anyone ever introduced an Immortal specifically
devoted to the healing arts (magic, herbalism, etc.)? I don't know much
(in fact, hardly anything at all) about Gareth--does he qualify?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:00:53 +1000
From: stan <shawn@leme.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Healing Immortal
>Just wondering...Has anyone ever introduced an Immortal specifically
>devoted to the healing arts (magic, herbalism, etc.)? I don't know much
>(in fact, hardly anything at all) about Gareth--does he qualify?
Chardastes is an immortal interested in healing, not much info on
him though.
stan
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:43:53 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Spelldoor
>
> or, he could cast that Spelldoor spell (out of glantri) and blow the tank
> away from 500 miles :)
>
That spell, on the other hand, is an example of a spell open to massive
abuse by its very nature. It makes spells like Fabrication and even the
original, unmodified Stoneskin look mundane and restrained by compairison.
Only in a world *with* loads of technology that needs to be blowed up from
afar would I even consider accepting this spell in my campaign, and such a
Technomancic campaign would be already far out the window IMO, which was my
original point.
But you prove that "canon" has already taken Mystara Where No Game
Ballance Has Gone Before.
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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:59:52 EDT
From: DrklngMuse@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - [Mystara] Stone shape
In a message dated 9/11/98 6:29:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no
writes:
> But what spellevel is it. Does anyone have suggestions for an =D&D
> conversion?
It's a 3rd level priest spell. The spell Ethan wrote about is a sixth level
wizard spell. The Stone shape only allows you to change the shape of the
stone you are casting it on. Stoneform creates a 1,000 cubic foot block or
shape of a stone, the type of stone can be chosen by the caster.
Really the only thing that needs to be converted it the area of effect (9
cubic feet +1 cu ft/level). Since it is a 3rd level spell it takes a priest
of at least 5th level. I might say an Area of affect of 20 cu. ft. wouldn't be
outrageous.
Ryan
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:04:53 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
In a message dated 98-09-09 03:52:46 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
<< >yes indeed. composite armours such as chobham are also highly resistant to
>HEAT rounds. so a fireball is childsplay to shrug off.
ahh, but the fireball would fill the interior as well... And a lightning
bolt effecively disintegrates as well as electrocutes because of the shock
of the blast. Failing that, how about a disintegrate spell? Or a death
spell (kill all the crew, then the mage gets to play with a tank!).>>
imc i would not allow a fireball to manifest inside a tank. instead, i'd have
it manifest on the outside of the tank and inflict damage there.
lightening bolt would do some damage. i would take into account the sloped
armour of MBTs. though the at hand text i have on the M1 says the armour
thickness is classified, i would assume it exceeds an inch. take into account
the slope and that thickness is increased by 20-50% depending on the area hit.
ex. a one inch plate set at 45 degrees acts as a 1.25 inches thick against
flat trajectory projectiles.
disintegrate works but imc i would tweak it. i'd slow down the spell's affect
to allow the crew to bail out. btw- i am not really sure if the crew would
disintegrate with the tank. also, i'd not have the entire take go poof. due to
the size of a tank, i'd have only a portion actually turned to dust. a M1
Abrams measures out at 25 ft. 11 inches in length, and 11ft. 11 inches in
width for the hull. from the ground to the top of the turret measures in at 9
ft. 6 inches. note that the length does not include the barrel. taking the
barrel into account stretches the length to 32 ft. 3 inches.
the problem i have always had with disintegrate is its vagueness. i'd prefer
it to have a mass destroyed value. say a mage can disintegrate X cubic feet of
matter + Y cubic feet per level.
>as james pointed out,
>range is heavily in favor of the modern weapons.
Well, there are some spells that dont even require line of sight...>>
but they almost all have range implications. range does factor in heavily on
the side of the tank.
>sighting aids can turn night
>into day at ranges exceeding infravision. AFV anti-personnel devices and
other
>close in defenses can disrupt spellcasting. some of these are triggered
>manually and/or can be set off by movement. then there are the weapons
>themselves. the 120mm and 105mm NATO standard mainguns
[snip]
Mmm. I can just imagine the poor old gunner sighting up an illusion, while
the polymorphed wren sneaks around the back. (Modern tanks are
exceptionally vulnerable from behind, modern tank tactics are all about
making sure the enemy never gets there. But mobile xD+D characters could run
rings around a tank). Or for that matter, the gunner sighting up a fire
charm spell, and getting charmed (Range of a fire charm? Line of sight...
Dont use a telescope!)>>
imc a sight would not be fooled by an illusion. the gunner or commander
looking at it with the naked eye might but the truth would be seen when the
gunner or commander looks into the sight. US tankers are trained to use their
light enhancement sights even in daylight. I wish Brant was on the list. he
could explain some of this through first hand experiences.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:05:33 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-10 06:44:22 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes:
<< Jesse>>
Alex>
Me again...
>> Let me see tanks... A quick look at the PHB (2nd ed.) says...
>> Color Spray- can knock the crew out of action for a few rounds at
least.>>
>nightvision sighting devices have an anti flare default.
This does not provide any protection to the crew in daylight, although I did
miss the point that the M1-series tanks have full NBC protection which does
consist of shaded ports that would interfere with such a spell.>>
the light enhancement gun sight is a passive system that can be used in any
light level. the NVS sight actually produces a sharper image even in daylight
than the old sight system. US military doctrine has this sight to be used in
either day or night conditions. i assume this goes for other NATO forces as
the sight is seen on both the 120mm and 105mm main guns (M1 and M60 tanks
respectively). these two mainguns are standard for NATO MBTs. and around the
clock fighting capability weighs heavily on NATO military doctrine against a
Soviet Bloc attack.
>> Shrink (Reverse Enlarge)- can shrink a 20' tank down to about 2' in size.
>> Soccer anyone? Oh, did I forget to mention that the crew, ammo, and guns
>>inside it were not shrunk- just the tank? Yeah. This works on 1 object-
not
>>a bunch of them...
>but wouldn't the gun and ammo (not sure about crew) be considered part of
the
>tank. and i am uncertain if i'd allow a crew to be crushed as a tank
shrunk.
>imo that is dirty pool.
[snip]
Since attached objects may be damaged as long as the tank itself does not
get
damaged from the shrinking process- considerable damage could occur to the
crew.>>
that imo is dirty pool. it's not like shrinking a horse to leave the rider
with but his saddle. this is crushing four men to death. i wouldn't allow it
imc. i would allow the crew to shrink with it. if the caster is intent on
singling out the tank, i would allow the crew to scramble clear. the vengeful
crew would have the initiative to draw their personal weapons. with a range of
5yds per level the casting mage is within shot range of four very ticked off
tankers with semiautomatic weapons. they'll at least be able to hold their
ground until the spell wears off (5 rds per level).
<< Also, any changes in size at all- try using the on-board computer system to
get anything near an accurate shot off.>>
technically your right. but being a fantasy setting shrinking or enlarging a
person is of little consequence. in the real world a man shrunk to under a
foot in height would perish. the small body would not be able to breath
correctly and heat dissipation would be fatal. an enlarged man would be too
big to support itself. bones would break under the weight. i have a book
around here somewhere which speaks of this and offers the real parameters to
scaled heights. anyway...that is why humans have a certain range of scaled
heights.
>>Grease- this might be a little lame, but grease the treads, better chances
>>of them slipping. Something tanks are notorious for without the spell...
>i am not sure if grease would hurt them. track tension insures the drive
>sprockets have a firm grasp with the contact slots of the tracks. throwing
a
>track is more the result of accumulation of mud which builds up to foul the
>track drive sprocket interface. even then, the m1 series has counters to
mud
>buildup.
Without friction tension would be greatly reduced- this is what my
consideration
was here. Would there be enough tension remaining to allow the "firm grasp"
to hold.>>
in theory maybe. but track tension is not like a fan belt where tension
provides the friction between track and pulley. a tank's tensioner aka idler
is to keep the slack out of the track lengths. friction between track and
drive wheel is provided by the teeth on the drive sprocket. it's like a
bicycle or motorcycle chain. the tension is just to keep the chain snug
against the drive sprocket. it would take alot to foul a drive sprocket to
throw a track. most thrown track comes from damaged running gear, especially
the drive sprocket. mud is another problem. mud buildup dries to foul the
track. removing mud is a part of maintenance. i've seen pics of tankers using
hammers and chisels to do this. extensive modifications were initiated
throughout tank history to prevent this. grease would probably aid the tracks.
other pics of tank maintenance show an extravagant use of grease.
i have seen films of ww2 M-4 Shermans slipping and sliding on frozen roads. so
that may be an option. though i could argue that one with track systems on the
M1.
>>Hold Portal- Half way down the barrel (or so) there is an ejection port.
>>What happens if that can't open to eject a spent shell?
>you mean the breach. not sure if a hold portal could get behind the shell to
>lock the breach mechanism. a 120mm shell is a big and heavy piece of metal
No, I mean the ejection port. After the shell is fired, an ejection port on
the side of the barrel opens to eject the spent round. It is not left in the
tank.
This ejection port could be held.
The loading breech could also be held. Going through the shell would not be a
necessity as you would simply cast the spell after a round has been fired.>>
the loading breech is the ejection port. spent casings are kicked out onto the
turret floor. iirc the 120mm gun is using a consumable casing now. but i am
really not sure. last i heard there were problems with it. i don't know what
you mean by the ejector on the side of the barrel. the only thing i can think
of is the fume extractor. that's the bulge in the middle of the barrel.
>>Magic Missile- this can take shells right out of the air.
>against a tank, magic missile is a good if not underpowered option. using
it
>to shoot fired shells out of the air is not feasible. even subsonic
travelling
>munitions would be too fast to aim at. heck you cannot even see the things.
Actually, large calibre rounds are visible to the naked eye. Another thing to
consider is that the Mage doesn't have to "aim" the magic missile, he simply
needs to catch a glimpse of the target.>>
maybe a howitzer but not a high velocity tank round. the only tank gun
velocity i could find listed was the French LeClerc. not the same gun, it is
comparable to the 120mm gun of the US Abrams, the UK Challenger, the German
Leopard2, and for the Italian listmembers the C1 Ariete. the French Giat
CN120-26 120mm smoothbore gun fires HEAT rounds 3,610ft per second and SABOT
rounds 5,742ft per second. with combat ranges exceeding 2,000 yards a round is
only airborn for a couple of seconds. a mage trying to hit one with a magic
missile has a split second to see the round fired (tank shudder, barrel kick),
plot the course, and timing the spell to manifest and hit while the projectile
is within the casters range.
>>Phantasmal Force- the already limited senses of the crew make this spell
>>very potent you can often make much more realistic phantasms as they
>>can't disbelieve because of sound and the like.
>hmm....pretty good theory but....sighting and vision aids would negate
[snip]
Most of this "sight circuitry" and the "visual aids" are useless in the
daytime.>>
once again US tankers use the light enhancement sight during both the night
and day. the sight's optics work well in either condition. daylight
performance exceeds that of normal optical sights
<< When a person's electronics say that there's nothing there, and he can see
the object with his own eyes- he's more likely to believe that the
electronics are broken or acting up than he is to think that his eyes are
deceiving him.>>
actually, tankers (and pilots) are trained to trust their instruments over
their own eyes. buttoned up instrument displays offer a better poicture of the
battlefield than the few vision ports for unaided sight. instrumentation
offers magnified optics that armoured glass blocks cannot.
>>Sleep- this can incapacitate the crew enough to allow the tank to drop off
>> of a chasm or the like.
>if a spell can be ruled to penetrate armour and the mage can get close
enough
>then this might work. i doubt a tank with sleeping crew would go out of
>control. it would just stop in its tracks.
Since spells penetrate Jousting plate, Castle walls, and the like- I'd see
no reason that they couldn't penetrate a tank. Getting close enough is a
matter of any one of several spells (Jump, Invisibility, Phantasmal
Force- for a few 1st
levellers). And I imagine that you're right- the tank would be stopped in its
tracks for the next 5 min. minimum. That's time for an incredible amount of
useful spell-casting- not to mention if we deal with a higher level mage.>>
getting within casting range is one thing doing critical damage is another.
for its size and nature i'd say a tank would use hull points instead of
hitpoints. taking damage while sparing the crew is another of the Abrams's
attributes. i've seen test footage of M1's rolling over mines, being used as
target practice, and surviving artillery bursts. and those do not include the
depleted uranium clad tanks. so heavy strength spells are needed.
>hmm.....i think you'd be short an unseen servant. projectile velocity
should
>punch through any hanger on unseen servant. the thing can only take 6 hps
>worth of damage.
I would be short an unseen servant which takes 1.5 times the damage as the
average
human- and that's enough impact force to set off a live round in the barrel
of the tank.>>
to spike a gun barrel you have to have a solid object blocking the barrel
opening. a HEAT round might be set off but i dought it would destroy the
barrel. a HEAT round is a shaped charge. SABOT rounds would just punch
through. SABOT rounds fire a fin stabilized tungsten and/or DU spike of about
97mm. It punches through enemy armour using kinetic energy to do the damage.
an unseen servant does not qualify as such. an unseen servant is a shapeless
formless force. i looked through the spell description and a couple of modules
with unseen servants and saw no references to unseen servants having a solid
body.
>>Wall of Fog- you can't hit what you can't see... Isn't that how it goes?>>
>aye....but tank vision sights are designed to see through the densest smoke
of
>battle. these are modern MBTs designed for all weather, around the clock
>fighting in worse case battlefield conditions.
This was more aimed at getting rid of those nasssty co-axial mg's and port
wpns.
actually. Although there are some sighting systems that can penetrate fog-
most of
them are in the tens of thousands of dollars- and are not provided to every
member
of a tank's crew. If any of them.>>
sight aids are primarily provided to commander and gunner. the commander has
his own night vision as well as access to the main gun sight. not only can he
see what the gun and gunner see but he can also fire the maingun. the loader
doesn't have access as he has no need. the driver has a system more akin to
night vision goggles that offer little or no magification.
>there is another rule that applies. "if it bleeds it can be killed". i have
think that
>modern weapons have a psuedo-magical attack to them. high velocity, high
rate
>of fire they can lay a bunch of metal in the blink of an eye. depleted
uranium and
>HEAT rounds are near magical in their affects.
Depleted Uranium would not be any more powerful against unarmored opponents
than a normal round as all DPU's are is a very hard shell for penetration.
HEAT rounds are not very effective against unarmored targets as the burst
radius decreases dramatically in the shaping of the explosive charge.>>
tank round 101:
HEAT shaped charge round. upon impact, explosive charge sets off a pencil thin
line of explosive gas. this penetrates the armour frying the interior of the
tank. effective against armour as well as soft skins. the HEAT round is
essentially a tank fired version of an anti tank missile such as the Hellfire,
Maverick, TOW, and for our European listmembers the Milan.
SABOT aka APFSDS- fired the 120mm casing propels a 97mm tungsten and/or
depleted uranium spike. the spike is kept flying straight by fins. travelling
at a high velocity the spike strikes the opposing tank smashing into the
interior. the kinetic energy of the penetrating spike causes shattered hull or
turret pieces and attached interior fittings to smash through the interior.
tankers call it a "Fragging" as it is similar to tossing a grenade. SABOT
rounds are most effective against armored vehicles. softskins are too delicate
and the spike can pass through the body of the vehicle.
>i am not trying to walk over your ideas. some show promise. all show that
they
>were thought out. i'm a military nut so i deal with a great deal of
[snip]
I don't mind the conversation on these lines as long as the rest of the list
does not get too fed up with the concept here...>>
i am enjoying the debate. i hope the rest are getting some gaming use out of
it. however, the discussion is becoming repeats of already cited info. one
thing i really cannot stand is repeating myself. this also implies that debate
has ended .... and opinions have taken over. and as we all know you cannot
debate opinions.
so i won't repeat myself again as it would be in vain anyway. plus it'll keep
the list a bit emptier.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:05:21 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-10 04:33:08 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
<< >hmm....pretty good theory but....sighting and vision aids would negate
these
>imo. the sight circuitry would see what was really there based on light
>enhancement and IR signature. the sight would not be fooled since it is a
>machine and not subject to believing illusions.
welll, the tank isnt a golem. Illusions create illusionary light and heat,
so it would show up on their scopes. Just as it would looking through
water, a window, a telescope, or an IR sight...>>
Well....imc i would rule that the illusion seen through a sight aid would be
compromised. a sight aid is to aid the gunner and commander in seeing the
target despite visual deterents and obstructions. an illusion qualifies as
both of those.
> <<Unseen servant- The most under-used powerful thing in the game. Have one
of
> these
> go up and wrap itself around the end of the barrel. when that shell
>fires...>>
>
>hmm.....i think you'd be short an unseen servant. projectile velocity
should
>punch through any hanger on unseen servant. the thing can only take 6 hps
>worth of damage.
Unseen servant only has a strength to carry 50lbs, so i think not. In a
similar vein, however, there is a psionic skill called Kinetic Reverse which
you could use on the tank, so it shoots itself :)>>
the unseen servant is also noncorporeal. it has no shape, no form. it is a
force. therefore it offers no resistance. a fired shell would pass right
through.
><< Wall of Fog- you can't hit what you can't see... Isn't that how it
goes?>>
>
>aye....but tank vision sights are designed to see through the densest smoke
of
>battle. these are modern MBTs designed for all weather, around the clock
>fighting in worse case battlefield conditions.
Maybe, but spells stop infravision (ie IR sights), and solid fog has a
visibility of less than 1 foot. This is not normal fog. Think of it as
VIRRS smoke (visul and infrared smoke :) which tanks have to fool these
advanced sights :) The only sights on a modern tank are IR and image
intensification (thats just amplifying existing light, and as beyond 1'
there is no light that wouldnt work either.>>
i thought it was 2 feet. it doesn't matter the fog would only be minor
nuisance. that's the great thing about mobile armor. it can push through the
fog quickly. a twenty foot deep wall of fog is nothing for a 125,890 pound AFV
that can accelerate to 40+m.p.h. like a sportscar. and for the caster standing
within 30 yards of the fog wall, that spells trouble. the tank dashes out
coaxial and command cupola mgs blazing. wind would also factor limiting the
fog's duration for following AFVs.
>i am not trying to walk over your ideas. some show promise. all show that
they
>were thought out. i'm a military nut so i deal with a great deal of
[snip]
well, i would use the Tale of the Comet stuff. High tech items count as
magical attacks with respect to immunity to non magical weapons. Normal
weapons have no effect on tanks and stuff, enchanted weapons do 1 point of
damage per plus (a tank may have around 50hp, so you arent going to destroy
it that way, even with +5 weapons). The crew are most vulnerable tho.
Particularly to enchantment and illusion, IMO. There is simply no
technological defence against this stuff - if you think about it illusion
has no counterpart IRL, unlike fireball, lightning bolt etc.>>
i used the M1A2 since it was given as an example. a techno invasion force
would probably have better tanks. given the interstellar nature, magic may be
known to the invaders too. the mages of mystara would have a dose of culture
shock as their normally potent spells such as fireball and lightening bounce
off or have limited affect. not to mention the panic of watching the AFVs
cresting the horizon. the defenders begin to assemble to meet this strange
enemy. forming ranks, perhaps hurried as the distant profile advance rapidly,
the defenders are horrified as bursts of 7.62mm and 12.7mm mg fire rakes the
lines from 1,000 yards plus. then the absolute horror as a SABOT round punches
through the first rank, second rank, third rank, etc. before smacking into the
catapults and ballistae in the rear. as the defenders are forced to accept
these bombardments until the AFVs come within spellcaster range. the good
thing is that this time allows the mages to construct a plan. the price for
these seconds being lives. there isn't any guarantee that these plans will
work.
<< Take invisibility. This would not only make a mage undetectable to any and
all modern kit, it would scare the living daylights out of the commander of
the USMC, who will be wondering how the hell that happened! Not to mention
things like teleport (you could just teleport inside the tank with your mate
Joe Fighter and his sword of beholder killing :)>>
but only invisible long enough to get close. once that spell is begun to be
cast the invisibilty is gone. turret transverse for the coaxial mg may be too
slow. commander copula mounted .50 cal is much faster. the loader hatch
mounted 7.62mm mg is faster but depends on the gunner being at the hatch. the
commanders 50 cal can be aimed and fired from within and with hatches buttoned
up.
the teleporting in would work. joe fighter may want to be a halfling or dwarf
and that sword of beholder killing for a shortsword. a tank is cramped enough
with the standard crew. adding a couple of buddies into the fighting
compartment will make things tight. commander, gunner, and loader are in
fighting compartment. driver is separated in a reclined drivers seat to the
front. btw- US tankers wear body armor and carry .40 cal S&W pistols.
<<A mage could sneak into the USMC camp with invisibility, and cast Fire Trap
on all their ammunition boxes :) So the next poor sod who opens it gets a
nasty surprise :)>>
if the mage can get in. since the scenario has changed from a lone tank to a
USMC encampment, the factors change. in hostile country, encamped perimeter
security is high. claymore mines, antipersonel mines, tripwires, flares, radar
controlled GE miniguns, razorwire, and the tried and true sentries are tough
to defeat. the US armed forces learned a great deal on anti insurgence during
Vietnam. But all said and done, would fire trapping an ammo can (which are
armoured btw) to kill a soldier or two be worth all the cost and risk to get
in. especially if joe marine is a noncombat soldier.
<< He could also cast Avoidance on all their tanks, which
makes them effectively unusable (unless the USMC have Dispel Magic, i think
not!). >>
[other spells snipped]
they might have mages of their own, drawn from nations opposed to whoever the
marines are invading. what nation wouldn't be tempted by the prospect of all
those weapons.
but you are getting warmer. to tackle a tank mages need to utilize higher
level spells. imo 3rd level begins to show promise. however, even with the
higher level spells range still comes in. and using ADnD you have to go with
casting times. most spells are ranged to the equivelant of a bow shot.
this is all fun though. it's theoretical warfare between tech and magic. you
can draw conclusions based on rw similarities. chobham armor is supposed to be
able to shrug off SABOT and HEAT rounds. NBC equipment is a counter to
biological, nuclear fallout, and chemical warfare agents. sight and vision
equipment counters visual hindrences of the battlefield.
there are unknown elements of magic that cannot be definitely tested on tech
armor. casting a spell into the inside of a tank is not possible imo. imc i
wouldn't allow a mage to attack the interior of a tower or galleon from the
outside. imo that's dirty pool.
tanks such as the M1a2 were designed to counter Warsaw Pact AFVs. imo they
stack up pretty darn good against magic users too. now think about blackmoor
created tanks. they knew about magic and probably had their share of mages.
knowing about tech they could gain the benefits of a modern tank. they could
also supply their tanks with enchantments and countermeasures directly
intended for magic.</PRE></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:05:59 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
In a message dated 98-09-10 18:32:11 EDT, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes:
<< The weakest link of the tank attack chain is the people inside.
what technology did in real life on the battle field was remove the
training gap. Anyone could use a musket, but only the nobility could
afford the expensive armour and swords, and spend the years of training
to achieve the right stuff. In game terms, this means that the tankers
are hideously inexperenced, on the order of first to third level. We're
talking Basic Set rules. The game inexperence would be the Achilles'
Heel of the tank: they would have effectively no saving throws compared
to the Name level characters who are most likely fighting it. Charm
person, polymorph other, death spell, et c., even sleep (which every
mage on the planet has), all would stop the tank dead in its tracks
(which means the possibly first-level mage has a new toy).>>
well tankers are not 6 week wonders. US tankers train religiously. their
regimine is second only to the fighter jocks. so whereas a infantryman would
be a F1 or F2. a tanker would be F3 to F5. so tankers would save vs. whatever
more often than a foot soldier. tankers are an elite force and should be
recognized as such.
<< This was done in the article a couple of people mentioned, the
Sturmschtuz (sorry about the spelling) vs. Sorcery. It contained a
play-by-play review of a war game that was played between an SS unit and
a Evil High Priest's minions (an intersting aside: neither player knew
before hand that he would be fighting such exotic enemies). Sleep and
Insect Swarm were used to good effect, but it could have gone either
way. >>
oh okay....so the StuG reference was not just a catchy name for the title.
well that explains a great deal. for those not aware of what a StuG is, it is
a panzer 3 (later a panzer 4) chassis with its turret removed. the
superstructure was closed. early makes had a 75mmL24 howitzer mounted directly
to the chassis floor. the short gunned StuGs (ausf. A-E) were intended for
infantry support. on the eastern front the StuGs low profile and thick armour
was a boon. the short 75mm gun was lacking against the T34s. The short 75mm
guns were replaced with the longer 75mmL48 and became a tank killer. besides
the 75mm main gun, StuGs had a MG34 mounted on the superstructure. main gun
and MG traverse was limited. the MG gunner had to perch himself out of the
hatch to fire. the StuG was a good weapon system but i wouldn't face a 5th
lvl. mage in it.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #618
********************************
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mystara-digest Saturday, September 12 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 619
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuff
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
[MYSTARA] - Re: Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Duel NoSs?
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
[MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:06:05 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-10 18:52:41 EDT, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes:
<< >No it isn't. The SE reactor is an Immortal artifact, not technology.
>
By the time Rad got to the NoS, it too was effectively an Immortal
artifact. The NoS had been so far removed from its original state, a
simple nuclear reactor, that Etinne was unaware of its mundane origin
(not the Blackmoor origin, but he thought that it was, at best,
"technomancy"). In the end of WoTI, if the players enter the NoS and
fiddle around with the computer, remember that Rad is amazed; he never
even knew there was an inside. >>
i won't oppose that assessment. that's all true for the NoS under glantri
city. however, the Shadow Elf NoS was the one i was referring to. that model
is untouched and unalterred by immortals.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:30:38 EDT
From: Magesmiley@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuff
In a message dated 9/11/98 10:32:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
harold@grid.wizards.com writes:
<< The response came from Sparky with Online, but was the result of a
discussion with legal, marketing, and Bill Slaviscek. Perhaps one of the
reasons deals with a product proposal on the table to release some of the
DRAGON back issue articles on a CD-Rom. I don't think the response is
immutable, but for now TSR and DRAGON have requested that this not be made
available until further review and planning take place. >>
Question/proposal for you Harold: have they considered rereleasing all of the
Princess Ark articles lumped together on CD-Rom?
- -Mage
(BTW I live in the greater Seattle area, Everett specifically, and if you ever
need someone to come to WOTC for moral support or to help pitch something I'd
be willing to lend a hand)
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:42:54 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Hello Alex,
I cut the "discussion" that we have been having on the
tank debate. Having been born/raised around the military
I have no disagreements with the things that you've brought
up in this and similar posts.
While you did in fact kill the majority of the statements that
I made using the spell list that I did, I have to give a couple of
added (new) thoughts- then leave the ball in your court as to
whether you'd like to continue the discussion or not.
Then whether you'd like to stay on the list or go private with
it if you decide that you'd like to continue...
The area that the tank is in could be scryed with minimal difficulty
and no risk to the Mage via a mess of potential spells.
Finding out the major weakness of a tank (blind-spots) should not
be too difficult in this fashion either.
The Mage's basic benefits are a generally much higher intelligence,
and the ability to get much better "Reconnaissance" accomplished
much quicker.
Round-1
Teleport should not be a problem for getting the Mage into a blind-
spot around the tank (or at least under cover within 200-300 yards).
As the Crew is not even aware of the arrival of our Mage they have
no appreciable actions.
Round-2
Dimension Door would allow the mage to get alongside the tank
unnoticed. They cannot see the Mage and do not know he's here
so again no actions.
Round-3
As the crew is still unaware that they are under attack- the Mage has
initiative. He casts disintegrate in the middle of the tank, destroying a
10x10x10 foot section (presumably leaving the crew intact as the ray
did not touch any of them- and they'd count as an added creature if it
had).
The tank is effectively destroyed. However, the crew is not. They will
be doing nothing more this round than try to figure out what just happened
as they hit the ground.
Round-4
While our soldiers are getting to their feet or drawing weapons, there
are two options.
1.Mission scenario is to destroy the tank. Mission accomplished- we
teleport home now.
2.Going for "brownie points" we cast a fireball on the crew...
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:58:49 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
> Hi, I'm new to this list. I would like to know if anybody has
>information concerning the background of Demogorgone. Were're he come
>from, what he was as a mortal and stuff like that.
Hmm, I'm going to detail that stuff in my Immortal project when I get to Demogorgon. Of course, it may take a while, so if anyone wishes to detail him first, be my guest :)
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:17:56 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
>the problem i have always had with disintegrate is its vagueness. i'd
prefer
>it to have a mass destroyed value. say a mage can disintegrate X cubic feet
of
>matter + Y cubic feet per level.
>
Well, it takes out a 10 x 10 x 10' cube of anything.
>imc a sight would not be fooled by an illusion. the gunner or commander
>looking at it with the naked eye might but the truth would be seen when the
>gunner or commander looks into the sight. US tankers are trained to use
their
>light enhancement sights even in daylight. I wish Brant was on the list. he
>could explain some of this through first hand experiences.
I definitely do NOT agree with this!
Tanks use two means of sensing - image intensifiers, and infrared. Well,
elves have effectively got night sights, and they are affected by illusion.
Image intensifiers just enhance existing light conditions. Personally, I
say that illusions (as opposed to phantasms) do not take place in the mind
of the victim, they are an actual spatial phenomena of some kind (ie they
create their own light, sound etc.). So, an image intensifier would make no
difference. Neither would looking through a periscope, a window, a
telescope...
Its quite basic, really. Its not like the sights are using some sort of
bizarre tecno Tachyon Field or some gibberish like that to see. A sight is
just a very sensitive elven eyeball...
And fire charm charms because of the hypnotic way in which the flames that
it is cast upon dance. So that would definitely go through a sight - if you
are looking at it, you could be charmed by it.
Thing is, a lot of magic just ignores technology. At the end of the day, a
120mm Rheinmetall damages the target the same way as a catapult boulder (ie
kinetic energy), and so the same magical defences that could be used on a
catapult boulder apply equally to the 120mm... (The point being, in terms of
magic, the M1A2s attack is not particularly special - just consider it to be
an extra lethal catapult...)
Chobham armour is likewise irrelevant, as most spells will happily blow
diamond away, and the damage that spells do is tied to level. So a
lightning bolt by a 12th level caster will penetrate 6" of Chobham armour
(as it would 6" of diamond), and a disintegrate means the tank needs a 17 on
a save vs disintegration or it loses a 10'x10'x10' chunk of itself.
Besides, the One True Spell versus tech armies has Got to be Death Spell.
IRL a force ceases to be an effective fighting force after it has taken
between 25% and 50% casualties. Death Spell could wipe out whole companies,
and just decimate the opposition. And range is a moot point, because a mage
has any number of a thousand means of getting within range. And if the
enemy doesnt have access to magic, a fair number of these are foolproof.
I just know that in an adventure its probably going to a gang of 12th+ level
adventurers against the USMC. And my money is most definitely on the 12th
level gang of adventurers. Using D+D rules magic is far less versatile (ie
it just kills things) and so it would probably be a more even fight.
(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform cast upon himself?
Basically, they have no means of stopping the guy in their entire armoury.)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:34:05 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Well....imc i would rule that the illusion seen through a sight aid would
be
>compromised. a sight aid is to aid the gunner and commander in seeing the
>target despite visual deterents and obstructions. an illusion qualifies as
>both of those.
all it does is enhance what is already there! Its no True Seeing spell.
Some vague shape through a smoke cloud may be made more discernable as the
sight would effectively "turn up the contrast", but this is leagues apart
from seeing through illusions.
(Incidentally, if you say that illusions only take place in the mind of the
victim (as opposed to actually creating real light/sound) than it doesnt
matter at all how exactly the illusion is being observed).
> Maybe, but spells stop infravision (ie IR sights), and solid fog has a
> visibility of less than 1 foot. This is not normal fog. Think of it as
> VIRRS smoke (visul and infrared smoke :) which tanks have to fool these
> advanced sights :) The only sights on a modern tank are IR and image
> intensification (thats just amplifying existing light, and as beyond 1'
> there is no light that wouldnt work either.>>
>
>i thought it was 2 feet. it doesn't matter the fog would only be minor
>nuisance. that's the great thing about mobile armor. it can push through
the
>fog quickly. a twenty foot deep wall of fog is nothing for a 125,890 pound
AFV
>that can accelerate to 40+m.p.h. like a sportscar. and for the caster
standing
>within 30 yards of the fog wall, that spells trouble. the tank dashes out
>coaxial and command cupola mgs blazing. wind would also factor limiting the
>fog's duration for following AFVs.
Hohoho. Unless it was Solid Fog, in which case the tank will be going a
couple of feet per round :). Of course, the crew dont know this... And
solid fog (indeed, most magical fogs) are not affected by anything but the
most severe winds.
Imagine a Death Fog spell! No tank will make it out of there... Well, they
may be if the crew promptly about face and go back the way they came, but
they arent going to know whats going on...
>if the mage can get in. since the scenario has changed from a lone tank to
a
>USMC encampment, the factors change. in hostile country, encamped perimeter
>security is high. claymore mines, antipersonel mines, tripwires, flares,
radar
>controlled GE miniguns, razorwire, and the tried and true sentries are
tough
>to defeat. the US armed forces learned a great deal on anti insurgence
during
>Vietnam. But all said and done, would fire trapping an ammo can (which are
>armoured btw) to kill a soldier or two be worth all the cost and risk to
get
>in. especially if joe marine is a noncombat soldier.
Hohoho. Wraithform, or Find Traps. (Or a thief!) And the way to defeating
an enemy force is Hearts and Minds. If the marines are too scared to open
their ammo boxes, because there is some undetectable trap been placed on it
(well, I suppose engineers would be D+D thieves, with Find Remove Traps)
then that detracts from the forces fighting ability.
For that matter, clerics could put a few Glyphs of Warding around the place
while they are at it - there is some nasty stuff that that could do to few
low level (dare i say 0 level in the case of conscripts?) marines.
And another fun thing of the xD+D Hero System (ie hit points). I would say
a claymore mine probably inflicts 10d6 damage in a cone formation, save vs
spells for half. So the high level guys would be able to dodge and weave
through the defences anyway :-).
For comparison, being hit by a 16-17th century cannon ball does d12 x 5
damage in AD+D terms :-) (Or so it says in the Mighty Fortress book).
> << He could also cast Avoidance on all their tanks, which
> makes them effectively unusable (unless the USMC have Dispel Magic, i
think
> not!). >>
>[other spells snipped]
>
>they might have mages of their own, drawn from nations opposed to whoever
the
>marines are invading. what nation wouldn't be tempted by the prospect of
all
>those weapons.
>but you are getting warmer. to tackle a tank mages need to utilize higher
>level spells. imo 3rd level begins to show promise. however, even with the
>higher level spells range still comes in. and using ADnD you have to go
with
>casting times. most spells are ranged to the equivelant of a bow shot.
Well, I wasnt assuming that the Apprentice was being sent out to take out
the USMC. I was assuming that an adventure featuring this stuff would
probably involve some sort of rift transporting a USMC company into Mystara
(perhaps under the control of some evil guy like Landryn Teriak - or perhaps
Hitler worked out an Interdimensional Warp Field device and didnt commit
suicide at all, he legged it to Mystara with some SS :-)
>this is all fun though. it's theoretical warfare between tech and magic.
you
>can draw conclusions based on rw similarities. chobham armor is supposed to
be
>able to shrug off SABOT and HEAT rounds. NBC equipment is a counter to
>biological, nuclear fallout, and chemical warfare agents. sight and vision
>equipment counters visual hindrences of the battlefield.
Sight and vision equipment would counter certain visual hindrances. But
illusions are not one of them, IMHO.
Chobham armour may well be able to stand up to fireballs, and if thick
enough lightning bolts, but it certainly isnt going to stand up to a
disintegrate.
(Incidentally, adamantium exists in xD+D, and it is supposed to be some sort
of Mythically Hard and Indestructible Substance, so Chobham (even though
it's English :-) probably doesnt match up to that.)
Whats harder, Wolverine's skeleton or Chobham armour?
>tanks such as the M1a2 were designed to counter Warsaw Pact AFVs. imo they
>stack up pretty darn good against magic users too. now think about
blackmoor
>created tanks. they knew about magic and probably had their share of mages.
>knowing about tech they could gain the benefits of a modern tank. they
could
>also supply their tanks with enchantments and countermeasures directly
>intended for magic.</PRE></HTML>
yeah, thats the Really scary thing. Just proof that Blackmoor is an
Ubernation :-)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:46:22 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> >>Magic Missile- this can take shells right out of the air.
> >against a tank, magic missile is a good if not underpowered option. using
> it
> >to shoot fired shells out of the air is not feasible. even subsonic
> travelling
> >munitions would be too fast to aim at. heck you cannot even see the
things.
> Actually, large calibre rounds are visible to the naked eye. Another thing
to
> consider is that the Mage doesn't have to "aim" the magic missile, he
simply
> needs to catch a glimpse of the target.>>
Magic missiles dont actually affect inanimate objects anyway :-)
>getting within casting range is one thing doing critical damage is another.
>for its size and nature i'd say a tank would use hull points instead of
>hitpoints. taking damage while sparing the crew is another of the Abrams's
>attributes. i've seen test footage of M1's rolling over mines, being used
as
>target practice, and surviving artillery bursts. and those do not include
the
>depleted uranium clad tanks. so heavy strength spells are needed.
Well, assuming that an M1A2 has a fairly standard armour configuration for
its tonnage, its probably got upto 12" front armour on the front. And about
1" on the back...
>sight aids are primarily provided to commander and gunner. the commander
has
>his own night vision as well as access to the main gun sight. not only can
he
>see what the gun and gunner see but he can also fire the maingun. the
loader
>doesn't have access as he has no need. the driver has a system more akin to
>night vision goggles that offer little or no magification.
All this talk of wonderful battlefield tech reminds me of the SAS. The SAS
all maintain that True Hardness is not a function of technology. After all,
in the Falklands War the Argies had all the best kit the US had to offer
(and the US trained them as well) but it didnt do them much good.
Admittedly the Argies werent exactly the highest calibre troops in the
world...
But - in xD+D terms the 12th level gang are exceptionally elite! A soldier
is going to be either level 1 or level 0, depending on the quality of his
training. Blooded troops may be a higher level, but I wouldnt place any
soldier (Alphatian or otherwise :-) above level 3. Spec forces would be
higher, but the adventurers are going to be capable of still higher levels
:-)
> Depleted Uranium would not be any more powerful against unarmored
opponents
> than a normal round as all DPU's are is a very hard shell for penetration.
> HEAT rounds are not very effective against unarmored targets as the burst
> radius decreases dramatically in the shaping of the explosive charge.>>
DU shells, at the end of the day, are just enhanced cannon balls, the damage
the target through kinetic energy. Nothing magical there. Incidentally, DU
spontaneously ignites with a magnesium white flame when it impacts something
at high velocity (thats the other reason that it is used, not just its
density). And they certainly would not be using sabot rounds against
infantry, or even buildings.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:50:18 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
>well tankers are not 6 week wonders. US tankers train religiously. their
>regimine is second only to the fighter jocks. so whereas a infantryman
would
>be a F1 or F2. a tanker would be F3 to F5. so tankers would save vs.
whatever
>more often than a foot soldier. tankers are an elite force and should be
>recognized as such.
Hmm. I dont think so. These guys arent exactly "blooded", which is what
separates level 1 from level 2.
Tankers maybe have all sorts of nice proficiencies which may take years of
practice, but that doesnt equate to hard levels. Level 5??????? Yeah
right. Even being kind and giving them half xp for training exercises
(which i wouldnt do personally) level 5 is a tad high. Level 2, maybe.
Besides, its irrelevant as the difference is saving throw is negligible.
(5%).
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:51:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Darokinian Houses
IMC, it was simply an escalation of competition between trading houses
that did it. The ones farther out and with less national interest (Toney
House, for instance) also happened to have trade interests that could be
sustained without the central government's intervention. In short, they
began to do business on the side. Eventually, the houses began competing
with each other for market share. This sometimes turned violent
(Selenica takes on a Shakespearian feel with Hallonica and Al-Azrad
Houses feuding openly in the streets). This breakdown of the central
order also gave the rulers of the outer dominions a chance to break into
the business scene (I took the opportunity to introduce a Godfather-type
scenario in the far north). The whole thing ended up with Darokin
effectively comprised of city-states like in your scenario, with the
Maunteas still ruling the south-central (largest) portion. That's it, in
a nutshell :)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:03:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Duel NoSs?
>
> i won't oppose that assessment. that's all true for the NoS under glantri
> city. however, the Shadow Elf NoS was the one i was referring to. that
model
> is untouched and unalterred by immortals.
>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the same NoS
was involved here.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:49:09 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
>
> Does anyone have any concrete ideas on how Darokin could split into
> fractions?
>
Well, one of my favorite schemes involves the following:
The Master invades (either the WotI invasion or a subsiquent one),
Darokin's own army performs typically (poorly), and Darokin is saved by
allies.
The Master doesn't try to conquer all of Darokin in one go, but instead
holds on in the hills west of the Streel Plain, and sets up puppet
governments in Akorros and Akesoli; Akorros governed by a charismatic
demogogue, and Akesoli by a disillusioned member of the Darokinian armed
forces, disenchanted with Darokin's system of government (a "man on a white
horse") who's family origins are in Akesoli, so he wants to make things go
well for the citizens (a kind of Vichy government).
The Master holds (rigged) elections with "mass" voter participation in
these cities, and sets them up as "truely Democratic Republics" in counter
to "Plutocratic" Darokin (c.f. SovWorld). Meanwhile, the concentration of
most of Darokin & allies armies in the West, facing Ak-Ak, leaves Eastern
Darokin insecure. Raids (by the SEs, or 'Noids from Orcland, etc) make the
Darokin-Selenica road insecure, and Selenica becomes de facto responsible
for their own defence, and begins to regard the central government with
contempt.
How this affects the Council in general, and the gradual desolving of the
Republic: each "major" Merchant House is primarily centered in one city.
Each also blaimes others for the current crisis (some houses may be in
contact with Ak-Ak, since their interests lie in thouse cities, but other
houses look upon them as collaborating with the enemy. Houses blaime
Mauntea's poor management for the crisis. Each claims that others are
holding back resources and seeking to profit from the situation at the
expense of others, willing to see the interests of the other houses damaged
by war so they can sieze power, etc.) The situation worsens.
Meanwhile, eventually, back in Sind, a revolt weakens the Master's hold on
that country, and he has to withdraw forces from the Darokin region,
opening the possibility for Ak-Ak to be recovered. But Darokin's houses are
squabbling among themselves, and miss the oportunity. Ak-Ak related houses
establish close ties with thouse cities (now effectively independant), and
'noids raid Corunglain, while the Daro. army is still spread out along a
now quiet border.
The old Republic falls into squabbling. Concepts of a new Darokin as a
federation of city-states arrise, but none can (for now) agree on the
structure or who should be pre-eminent. . . .
.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:12:57 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> As far as "innate magical ability" is concerned, what IS the difference?
> I know that Tredorian, say, isn't unable to use magic because of a low
> INT--then what keeps him from it (and others)? Have I just missed
> something over and over???
>
> Just feeling stupid :)
>
> Jenn
Joel Rosenberg had explained in a very clear way in some of his books: A
man or woman must have the genetically anchored ability to cast magical
spells. If he or she is missing this geneitcal trait any training were
absolutely useless.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:18:35 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphAtl?
> I find strange that Darokin guilds had enough power to be the rulers of a
> countrie so young.
>
> What do you think?
>
The guilds, exactly the merchant houses, are older than he republic...
That means, that the merchants has FOUNDED the republic because the saw
economical advantages for their business.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:31:42 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
> This is _very_ interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Darokin actually
> controlled almost all trade in the entire KW. And they don't like trading
> with non-guild member either. This reminds me somewhat of the Merchant
> guilds from the Birthright setting where the guilds controll trade all
> over..
>
> Håvard (sorry about lack of snippage on this one)
But the sea trade is the domain of Minrothad, while Darokin commits the
overland trade.
BTW, besides being rivals what kind of relationship both countries have? Do
Minrothaddan ships transport Darokinian goods?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:34:52 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphChina?
> Correct me if I'm wrong, after all I've been absent a while :) , but
> didn't someone from the MOrient project say long ago that Ochalea was
> not, if fact settled by Alphatians or Cyprians until after they had
> gotten their cultural influences from elsewhere?
>
It's just a personal opinion to which I do not agree...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:39:09 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
> Let's not forget the ladies of Karameikos; they're married, but still
> important. Queen Olivia is practically the head of Karameikos'
Intelligence
> Agency, while Princess Adriana is the heir to the throne. There's also
> Jamal, the head of Ethengar's Keshak.
>
> Glen
>
Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!
Finally somebody shows that he has read the gazetteer... :-)
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:55:54 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Better Living through Fabrication
> Must go, I'm having a friend for lunch...
>
> Cheerz
>
> Rob
>
May he rest in peace... or in hydrochloric acid. :-)
Sorry, I couldn't resist, back to Mystara.
Jamuga Khan
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #619
********************************
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mystara-digest Sunday, September 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 620
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
Re: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with disimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - Aleena the Wanton Hussy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:59:15 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
> Even worse. I always pictured the GF as, at least in terms of
> military technology (remember, the Beagle was a tiny exploration ship,
> like the Enterprise, not a full-blown dreadnaught) as similar to the
> Empire from Warhammer 40K: Angels of Death parading around in Terminator
> armour with Heavy bolters (which, if you don't know, fire small shells
> that explode once they've penetrated the flesh. Nasty.) and all the
> other devices designed to rip metal to shreds. And don't forget the
> Titans...
>
Er, sorry to correct you, but the Beagle was TWO MILES long. When you see a
little exploration ship in it, what's the size of a destroyer, a cruiser or
a dreadnaught then?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:02:12 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
> The Comeback Inn seems to transform the characters; when they
> arrive, they speak the language that Blackmoor uses, and no one ever
> really comments on their money. Since more powerful magic than the
> Immortals was used to create the Comeback Inn, it would seem possible
> that the clerics are "transformed" as well. This would be nice, as there
> are virtually no Immortals in the time of Blackmoor: the only two
> mentioned are that Afridhi god (can't remember his name; wonder what
> happened to him), which the characters probably won't worship as they
> are no where near Afridhi; and, of course, there's always Frog... :)
Maybe a much younger Ixion?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:17:55 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> > An absolutely useless argument as the attacking mage probably would
cast
> > his spells from the backseat of a Tomcat or a Tornado.
> >
> An absolutely risible counter-argument, because what we are dealing with
> here is a situation where *some* will be given access to technology (and
> magic), not all. Try and keep up if you want to comment.
>
I had expected such an argument by you. To sad that you've posted it.
When the attacking mage does not have any technology why should the modern
army have any magical supply? So the bullets are absolute non-magical and
can be easily blocked by "Protection against Normal Missiles"!
To repeat it: If our hypothetical tank has magical arms, amour, ammunition
or other equipment than the discussion is useless unless our hypothetical
mage has some technological equipment too.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:01:06 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
In a message dated 9/12/98 1:39:35 PM, you wrote:
<< Concepts of a new Darokin as a
federation of city-states arrise, but none can (for now) agree on the
structure or who should be pre-eminent. . . .
.>>
Must say, I'm intreged by all these suggestions, from all posters, and have
saved these e-mails for future use. Tell me, any ideas on what outside
factions might try marrying into these places? With outright invasion ruled
out, I see all the neighbors trying to add city-states to their holdings
through inheritance, including big players from afar. . . recognizing the
power of trade and commerce, I see suitors coming from as far away as The Isle
of Dawn, Savage Coast, and even ambitious Guildsmen from Minrothad (can you
say mega-merger?)
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:06:49 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
>Er, sorry to correct you, but the Beagle was TWO MILES long. When you see a
>little exploration ship in it, what's the size of a destroyer, a cruiser or
>a dreadnaught then?
well, in sci fi the exploration ships are often bigger than the warships!
(True of Star Wars, Babylon 5, all sorts...)
But size matters not, as an Imperial Star Destroyer is only 1600m long, and
can "reduce a civilised world to slag or take on a fleet of lesser
veseels"... :)
(Wow, i take this stuff far too seriously. :)
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:36:55 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> >
>
> I had expected such an argument by you. To sad that you've posted it.
>
Well, if you are going to post insulting statements yourself, then you will
get the respect you deserve. . . . .
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:52:01 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>i won't oppose that assessment. that's all true for the NoS under
glantri
>city. however, the Shadow Elf NoS was the one i was referring to. that
model
>is untouched and unalterred by immortals.
Maybe I misread Gaz13, but I interpreted it to say that it was
created under the direct supervision of Rafiel (an immortal) as an exact
duplicate of the NoS (pre-WoTI modifications), which would imply one
just as described in Gaz3. On the other hand, it also says that the
Chamber of the Spheres (CoS; I invented a new acronym!) doesn't drain
magic quite the same as the NoS (via soul crystals), so it could have
some other, fundamentl differences. Rafiel would know about technology,
being a nuclear physicist, but I got the impression he was trying to
create a magical reactor to create more immortals, just like the NoS.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:56:17 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
>well tankers are not 6 week wonders. US tankers train religiously.
their
>regimine is second only to the fighter jocks. so whereas a infantryman
would
>be a F1 or F2. a tanker would be F3 to F5. so tankers would save vs.
whatever
>more often than a foot soldier. tankers are an elite force and should
be
>recognized as such.
Ok, the tankers should be higher than a average footman, but those
aren't the people the tank is going up against. After any Mystara
kingdom has a few regular regiments blown away by the "Rolling Death",
they're going to send in some elite, Companion-level+ shock forces,
namely heroes, who ALWAYS win, regardless of the odds. Even if the
tankers are 5th level, those saving throws don't do much a really high
level mage/ cleric; Holy Word would do wonders.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:00:45 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with disimilar nations
>
> Must say, I'm intreged by all these suggestions, from all posters, and
have
> saved these e-mails for future use. Tell me, any ideas on what outside
> factions might try marrying into these places? With outright invasion
ruled
> out, I see all the neighbors trying to add city-states to their holdings
> through inheritance, including big players from afar. .
>
Hmmmn. . .for the most part I'd say they'd marry into each other, but that
wouldn't solve the problem (in fact, these "dynastic marriages" typically,
on a general level, cause as many or more problems as they "solve").
Various Karameikans might offer marriage (eliments of the ruling family and
also some lesser nobles). Selenica would be a "plum" that the Ylari might
try to influence/aquire through marriage ties, etc. and some Thyatian
families of course may try the same thing.
Problem would be distance (intervening nations forming a physical barrier
to unity), but more importantly would be the cultural distance if you will:
the gulf between social custom between the two nations intended to be
joined through marriage, a long with the distaste the smaller entity would
have for being "absorbed" into a larger (especially non-Darokinian) state.
About the only way to affect a *long term* union would be adhesion through
enforcement: use of force to insure that irridentist/separatist eliments
don't disolve the newly forged ties.
I see as especially unlikely a union between any of the Darokinian cities
and the Thadders. While on the surface they have much in common (adept at
trade, "guild" and "house" governmental structures), they are natural
compedators, not natural cooperators (with each other), and there are
significant "cultural" differences between how they handle their business
practices.
. recognizing the
> power of trade and commerce, I see suitors coming from as far away as The
Isle
> of Dawn, Savage Coast, and even ambitious Guildsmen from Minrothad (can
you
> say mega-merger?)
Problem with some of these, as mentioned above, would be the impracticality
of a "union" between distant nations, even in a fantasy world. What could
happen is something along the lines of the Hapsburg Inheritance. But note
two (at least) things about that:
1) the Hapsburg rulers governed their "empire" through a collection of
crowns, not a unitary state. Each nation within the Hapsburg domain
remained distinct, with distinct government, legal, and institutional
practices, which made the "conglomerate" very difficult to rule, resulting
in (vollentary, and involentary) division of it into more managable chunks.
2) by its very nature, it was unstable; not a friendly collection of
happily cooperating realms, there was an (unhealthy) rivalry between the
parts, and the very appearance of strength encouraged other nations (most
noitably France & Brittain) to pick at Hapsburg "scabs" in order to open
wounds and weaken the whole, and it was essentially impossible for the H's
to prevent this kind of thing, because acting to enforce a greater unity
(which they did) only stoked fires of separatism and disention.
A Savage Coast nation, which has its own set of problems, would possibly
dream of the benifits of adding a rich Darokinian city to their domain,
thinking that by doing so they would gain increased resources to help them
solve their present difficulties. I.E. they envision a whole that is
greater than the sum of its parts.
What is more likely to occur is that they will retain their present
problems, inherit the problems of the Darokinian city-state, and by trying
to create a union between very different realms, create a whole new set of
problems. In other words, they will develop a "whole" that is *less* than
the sum of its parts, and the ruler in question will be dividing their
attentions to these problems in ways that would make them hard to solve any
one of them before other dificulties became pressing.
Which isn't to say they wouldn't try, many have been deluded into pursuing
this route to greatness. Some noitable ones have at least in part
succeeded. But they are noitable, and therefore great, because they are the
exception to the general rule, which is failure.
Their ain't no such thing as a free lunch, not in geopolitics.
Best way, probably, to go about it is the old fashioned way: conquest by
force of arms. If you do that, as hard as it is, you can surpress local
laws and traditional governmental systems by force, thus "cleaning
everything up" for yourself. Whereas if you try to do that through "mere"
marriage, "attacking" local custom, you're likely to encourage sedition and
revolt, and need to send in troops anyhow, and the whole thing becomes a
mess (plus, what does your spouse think of your efforts to impose "ordered
rule" on their city? and if the marriage disolves, so to does your right to
rule. And, irregardless, the city may just decide to "exclude" your
marriage partner from the governance of the city, presisely in order to
avoid this kind of mess).
In any case, probably the best thing to do would be to forge marriage ties
not in order to create unitary states, but in order to encourage alliances.
These too will probably also be somewhat temporary, as in the end true
"national interests" will determine the strength (and direction) of
alliances, but this kind of forging of ties through marriage is the closest
you'll likely get to achieving "the best of both worlds".
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:08:58 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Can you give an exact quite of page referance? I thought the reactor
blew
>up because of a (failed) attempt to combine magic and technology.
According to my reading, the reactor began meltdown because the
idiot GFederite who was selling it was a diplomat, not an engineer, and
didn't have the vaguest idea what he was doing. If Benekander hadn't
woken up and sacrificed his life to fix some of it, all of Mystara would
be an asteroid belt. With Benekander's assistance, Mystara merely got an
Ice Age.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:20:17 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
>a) Your players need to grow up. Magical healing isnt around in the
real world.
>
>b) First aid or similar skills. Youy can also allow herbs which restore
extra hit points combined with a First Aid roll.
>
>c) have a friendly deity bestow spells to the cleric.
Ok, you have a point with A. I like to run all of the DA modules in
an extended adventure, with the party staying in Blackmoor for at least
six months or so. They go on a bunch of adventures and meet some really
interesting people and so forth, but when they finally return, no time
has passed and all of their research into the (scanty) archives of
Blackmoor legends seems to indicate that they were never there. They
start to think that is was all a dream or some weird dimensional paradox
thing (the player who came up with that description never quite
explained that one fully), but when they've almost forgotten about it
all, in some really remote and ancient country (Ulimwengu could work),
they come across a fragment of a long-forgotten legend that mentions
them and a few a their exploits.
About the friendly deity: would it be possible for a patron
Immortal to send an avatar back in time with the players? I don't know
of any canon on this subject; anyone like to clarify?
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:25:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
How could I manifest this genetic ability in game terms? Suggestions?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:29:56 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
>Er, sorry to correct you, but the Beagle was TWO MILES long. When you
see a
>little exploration ship in it, what's the size of a destroyer, a
cruiser or
>a dreadnaught then?
Actually, Mr. Almighty Khan, sir (no disrespect intended; I always
liked those crazy Mongolians), it's pretty standard in galactic-level
science fiction to have gigantic war ships/stations, on the order of up
to hundreds of miles. Remember the Death Star? Furthermore, the Beagle's
mission was to find interesting life-forms and bring them back. When
you're a zoo for an entire galactic quadrant, you need some extra space.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:33:03 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
>BTW, besides being rivals what kind of relationship both countries
have? =
>Do
>Minrothaddan ships transport Darokinian goods?
Being the two largest economies in the KW, they probably have some
very lucrative deals; look at Japan and the US. However, I wouldn't be
suprised if Darokin wants a larger piece of the sea market, or least
doesn't want to deal with a monopoly, so they probably secretly support
the knaas well.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:44:05 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
>> Except that the Order of the Frog is far older than St. Stephen
and the Beagle. Most importantly, there are Frog "monks" who are
clerics,with spells, turn undead, et c.. Frog is not an Immortal per se,
but worship of Frog can entail clerical spells (long story IMC)
>
>Sounds very interesting. Fits with the ideas I've suggested in my
previous mail. Either the Demon was already immortal or he had an ally
immortal providing spells for his followers. Any chance the Frog monk
revival in modern Mystara?
Revival? Who said they ever left? IMC, they are a fearsome secret
society in grand Lovecraft tradition ("Apes danced to these horrors in
Asia."); existed prior to man and shall outlive him. I've got a lot of
notes on them IMC I could type up. I have a similar concept of Frog as
yours, but, so as to preceed Immortal-kind, I have a different origin.
If I get the time, maybe I can post my stuff.
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:37:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Glen Sprigg <borealis@cois.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: [MYSTARA] - Strange ... about Karameikos.
At 11:39 PM 9/12/98 +0200, you wrote:
>> Let's not forget the ladies of Karameikos; they're married, but still
>> important. Queen Olivia is practically the head of Karameikos'
>Intelligence
>> Agency, while Princess Adriana is the heir to the throne. There's also
>> Jamal, the head of Ethengar's Keshak.
>>
>Finally somebody shows that he has read the gazetteer... :-)
>
> Jamuga Khan
I've read them all; I've memorized half of them. I challenge anyone out
there to prove I actually have a life.
Glen
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 01:47:41 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>How could I manifest this genetic ability in game terms? Suggestions?
Well, no game mechanics bar DMs decision. If a player wants to play a mage,
then he can just be assumed to be the "right stuff", so the DM need only
worry about NPC would be mages. And it seems that it would just be a DMs
call thing...
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:07:05 -0400
From: Andrew Toth <beyowulf@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 11:12 PM 9/12/98 +0200, you wrote:
>> As far as "innate magical ability" is concerned, what IS the difference?
>> I know that Tredorian, say, isn't unable to use magic because of a low
>> INT--then what keeps him from it (and others)? Have I just missed
>> something over and over???
>>
>> Just feeling stupid :)
>>
>> Jenn
>
>Joel Rosenberg had explained in a very clear way in some of his books: A
>man or woman must have the genetically anchored ability to cast magical
>spells. If he or she is missing this geneitcal trait any training were
>absolutely useless.
>
You think Joel Rosenberg's 'Keeper Of The Flame' books are based on DnD?
I've always kinda wondered about that.
Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant
Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==-
|/
"A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully"
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:10:02 EDT
From: BoBoII@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
In a message dated 9/12/98 8:30:34 PM, JK wrote:
<<BTW, besides being rivals what kind of relationship both countries have? Do
Minrothaddan ships transport Darokinian goods?
>>
You'd think so. Any confirmation of this? I remember one of the Gaz. has a big
trade map in it.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:55:09 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
>But the sea trade is the domain of Minrothad, while Darokin commits the
>overland trade.
>
>BTW, besides being rivals what kind of relationship both countries have? Do
>Minrothaddan ships transport Darokinian goods?
>
Heh, you should see the kind of relations they have in my PBEM. People have to watch for daggers in their backs :)
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:16:40 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> How could I manifest this genetic ability in game terms? Suggestions?
>
> Jenn
>
Ouch, that is very simple!
If the GM (or DM?) decides that a NPC has to be a mage than he has this
trait. If a player wants to play his newly rolled character as a mage than
he has this trait too.
A really simple solution, without any real rules or even tables...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:18:18 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
> About the friendly deity: would it be possible for a patron
> Immortal to send an avatar back in time with the players? I don't know
> of any canon on this subject; anyone like to clarify?
>
I would say yes!
And now imagine if the immortal still exists in this past...
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:20:23 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
> Actually, Mr. Almighty Khan, sir (no disrespect intended; I always
> liked those crazy Mongolians), it's pretty standard in galactic-level
> science fiction to have gigantic war ships/stations, on the order of up
> to hundreds of miles. Remember the Death Star? Furthermore, the Beagle's
> mission was to find interesting life-forms and bring them back. When
> you're a zoo for an entire galactic quadrant, you need some extra space.
>
Alright, your excuse has been accepted. You may live further... :-)
At least we can agree that the Beagle was not a LITTLE exploration ship,
can we?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:22:30 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
> Being the two largest economies in the KW, they probably have some
> very lucrative deals; look at Japan and the US. However, I wouldn't be
> suprised if Darokin wants a larger piece of the sea market, or least
> doesn't want to deal with a monopoly, so they probably secretly support
> the knaas well.
>
And the Minrothaddans have the MGCC, the Minrothad Guilds Caravan
Corporation to commit overland trade. Sounds like a really poisonous
mixture.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:25:37 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> >Joel Rosenberg had explained in a very clear way in some of his books: A
> >man or woman must have the genetically anchored ability to cast magical
> >spells. If he or she is missing this geneitcal trait any training were
> >absolutely useless.
> >
>
> You think Joel Rosenberg's 'Keeper Of The Flame' books are based on DnD?
>
> I've always kinda wondered about that.
>
Only vaguely! Some of the game mechanics resembles (A)D&D, but other not.
For instance I've always used numbers to count levels, Rosenberg used
letters.
("A level D fighter").
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:48:21 EDT
From: Demmero@aol.com
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Aleena the Wanton Hussy
Just a quick note to Frank Mentzer about two of his Mystaran
creations--Bargle and Aleena. Both have gone on from their humble beginnings
to become major NPCs in the Karameikos setting. Bargle the Infamous became
Court Mage at Baron von Hendriks' stronghold at Fort Doom before betraying the
baron, and Aleena--well, she's earned a bit of infamy too....
In 1993's Poor Wizard's Almanac II, she married the Karameikan adventurer
Dmitri Yurevich. In 1994's Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure boxed set,
however, Aleena appears in "The Sound of Madness" adventure in that set
professing her love for a druid named Bertrak. Apparently she dropped poor
Dmitri quicker than--well, a wedding gift from Bargle!
I suppose this could have just been poor cross-referencing from the folks at
TSR, but tongues are still a-waggin' in Threshold.... :)
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #620
********************************
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mystara-digest Sunday, September 13 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 621
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability
[MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
RE: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
RE: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
RE: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
RE: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
RE: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:10:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability
So sorry that question was too simplistic for you, Great Khan. Others
were nice enough to answer it without being so condescending. Thanks
anyway.
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:17:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Now that I've been flamed for asking about something I was interested
in, I think I'll re-post the question in different words (to all of you
who tried to answer me already, thank you:).
When I ask "how do I manifest innate magical ability in game terms," I
do not mean "how do I assume PCs have this ability?" I have been playing
for many years as well; I am not stupid.
What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
Thanks,
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:56:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Now that I've been flamed for asking about something I was interested
> in, I think I'll re-post the question in different words (to all of you
> who tried to answer me already, thank you:).
>
Don't pay any attention to him (advice that I should take myself, actually.
. . .)
>
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
>
Hmmmn. . .DotE/Alphatia mentions testing, but doesn't describe how it is
done. I would assume that it might be somewhat similar to "aptitude" tests
that we're all run through as children. There are also spells (AD&D) IIRC
that "test" for magical aptitude, but I can't remember their names.
IMO, the most "appropriate" for Alphatia might be a combination of the
above: a battery of "aptitude" tests and a spell or two that may indicate
(but probably not 100% confirm) magical talent. Could lead to some
interesting backrounds if, for example, one of the PCs was tested, found to
have aptitude for magic, but the testers made an error, he (or she) failed
to learn to cast spells because of lacking the "special spark", and thus
learned a different trade. Could thus have some experience/contacts in the
"magical community," might be bitter (or not), etc.
Also, I would rule that clerical spells don't depend upon an inate genetic
trait, but rather devotion to the Immortal(s) and recipt of their grace
(I.E. you may be devote, but if you don't recieve the "call," you won't be
a Cleric, but "just" one of the laity).
Now, regarding Wish, I would think that a Wish wouldn't work, otherwise
high muckety mucks in Alphatia wouldn't have Ericall/Tredorian type
problems, because they could "fix" it. Perhaps there is something akin to
our "biogenetic reasurch" that is going on in Alphatia (especially), but
more along the lines of "biomagical reasurch" to solve the "problem".
Whether anything along thouse lines works is IMO dubious; the proportion of
Alphatians who can cast spells has been dwindling for millenia, and no
doubt throughout that time they've tried all kinds of things to arrest the
decline, and if it hasn't worked yet, I doubt anything will work in the
near future either. But to each their own campaign. Sounds like an
interesting "scientific" delema for a scholarly PC to reasurch. . . .
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:56:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Now that I've been flamed for asking about something I was interested
> in, I think I'll re-post the question in different words (to all of you
> who tried to answer me already, thank you:).
>
Don't pay any attention to him (advice that I should take myself, actually.
. . .)
>
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
>
Hmmmn. . .DotE/Alphatia mentions testing, but doesn't describe how it is
done. I would assume that it might be somewhat similar to "aptitude" tests
that we're all run through as children. There are also spells (AD&D) IIRC
that "test" for magical aptitude, but I can't remember their names.
IMO, the most "appropriate" for Alphatia might be a combination of the
above: a battery of "aptitude" tests and a spell or two that may indicate
(but probably not 100% confirm) magical talent. Could lead to some
interesting backrounds if, for example, one of the PCs was tested, found to
have aptitude for magic, but the testers made an error, he (or she) failed
to learn to cast spells because of lacking the "special spark", and thus
learned a different trade. Could thus have some experience/contacts in the
"magical community," might be bitter (or not), etc.
Also, I would rule that clerical spells don't depend upon an inate genetic
trait, but rather devotion to the Immortal(s) and recipt of their grace
(I.E. you may be devote, but if you don't recieve the "call," you won't be
a Cleric, but "just" one of the laity).
Now, regarding Wish, I would think that a Wish wouldn't work, otherwise
high muckety mucks in Alphatia wouldn't have Ericall/Tredorian type
problems, because they could "fix" it. Perhaps there is something akin to
our "biogenetic reasurch" that is going on in Alphatia (especially), but
more along the lines of "biomagical reasurch" to solve the "problem".
Whether anything along thouse lines works is IMO dubious; the proportion of
Alphatians who can cast spells has been dwindling for millenia, and no
doubt throughout that time they've tried all kinds of things to arrest the
decline, and if it hasn't worked yet, I doubt anything will work in the
near future either. But to each their own campaign. Sounds like an
interesting "scientific" delema for a scholarly PC to reasurch. . . .
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:08:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Great ideas, James, (and thanks for the moral support, too:)...I think
you're absolutely right about the clerical spells, BTW--if everyone who
was a true believer automatically received the Immortal's grace, then
everyone would be a cleric; after all, why be a member of the laity
when, for the same amount of devotion (plus some extra prayer time, of
course), you could have spells and granted powers...
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:08:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
> But size matters not, as an Imperial Star Destroyer is only 1600m long, and
> can "reduce a civilised world to slag or take on a fleet of lesser
> veseels"... :)
<off topic>
Wow.. That doesn't exactly explain why I can easily take one out with a
nice happy A-Wing in XvT!
</off topic>
Ethan
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:23:46 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 08.42 10/09/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>
>Mmm. It was discovered in World War 1 that a 0.50 cal can do a very good
>job of mowing down whole armies... But the teleportation option is valid.
You're right about WWI. But that those armies had no magic and could not fly.
A frontal ground assault against a .50 cal is stupid, but if you could get
behind or above the .50 cal, that would be very different.
A MG is a very good 2-D weapon, but IMO it doesn't work very well in 3-D,
i.e. against flying troops.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:31:13 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 00.26 11/09/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote:
>hmm...the shadow elf gaz calls it an artifact as well as a nuclear reactor.
>being a nuclear reactor, it is technology. if it were an immortal artifact
>completion would have been quick after Raf spent a few PPs. instead he
>inspires/guides his Shamans to build it.
>
>so based upon that i would call the SE NoS a techno based artifact.
Yes, techno based, but magically built.
The SE NoS is made out of Crystal Souls, not out of metal and concrete, so
it probably doesn't look like a RW nuclear reactor. Technomagic?
**************
Fabrizio Paoli brizio@lunet.it rafiel@geocities.com
DM in City Of The Stars - Mystaran Almanac Assistant
Student of Aerospace Enginnering - ICQ #1688817
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:35:36 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 18.41 11/09/98 +0200, Jamuga Khan wrote:
>> A "Mystaran" M1A2 tank would probably have some magical protections
>(fill
>> in the blanks), and shoot "enhanced munitions", obviating your
>"protection
>> from normal missiles" excuses.
>>
>
>An absolutely useless argument as the attacking mage probably would cast
>his spells from the backseat of a Tomcat or a Tornado.
Bad choice Jamuga. When dealing with tanks, it's much better to use an A-10 :-)
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:44:01 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
<snip>
>i am enjoying the debate. i hope the rest are getting some gaming use out of
>it. however, the discussion is becoming repeats of already cited info. one
>thing i really cannot stand is repeating myself. this also implies that
debate
>has ended .... and opinions have taken over. and as we all know you cannot
>debate opinions.
>
>so i won't repeat myself again as it would be in vain anyway. plus it'll keep
>the list a bit emptier.
Hi Alex, I enjoyed the debate too and liked your latest messages very much.
Anyway, don't you think the discussion is going somewhat off-topic?
We started with Technomancy, moved to .50 cal MG vs. Mystaran army and now
we're discussing about NATO tanks technology.
Anyway, let me know if you'll move this to private e-mail.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:39:33 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 13.05 11/09/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>With the proviso that the Teleporting mage gets to roll on the "never seen"
>(AD&D) or "casual knowlege" (D&D) table for the result.
He doesn't need to teleport himself inside the tanks, moving on top of it
it's enough IMO.
> Then he casts the
>Fireball inside the tank, roasting himself in the process. Nice. Reall
>bright move. 8-)~
1 man for 1 tank it's a very good ratio IMO.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:17:34 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" <anpro@accesocero.es>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
>
> > About the friendly deity: would it be possible for a patron
> > Immortal to send an avatar back in time with the players? I don't know
> > of any canon on this subject; anyone like to clarify?
I would treat it like getting "removed" from a patron power (according to
PS). A cleric would carry part of his Immortal´s essence with him (as all
believers do), so the cleric himself would be a "tiny avatar" of the
Immortal. We could use a freely devised system to gauge how much power
(levels, or perhaps only spells) the cleric losses as he goes deep into the
past and awa from the point of his patron´s rising to Immortality.
I would say something like this:
1) take count of the Immortal´s power level
2) see the interval value in years: Ultimate = 500
Greater = 100
Average = 50
3) Calculate the years (approximately) in past away from the Immortal´s
ascension
4) divide it by the figure above to calculate the number of intervals
5) for each interval, the PC loses one level of clerical abilities
(spellcasting and turning undead)
6) in special missions, the Immortal can send an avatar along (with or
without the PC knowing it). In that case, the PC cleric keeps all powers.
The avatar is difficult to keep, as it menaces paradox. The Immortal can
only keep an avatar in remote past for a number of days equal to the HD of
his Manifestation form.
7) Time Immortals may bypass the above rules and tamper with Time and
paradox, keeping their clerics full-power. There is a danger in this: it is
considered violation of Immortal law (like direct interaction with
mortals), so the Immortal has a 5% cumulative per day of getting caught and
being forced to retire from the timespan meddling. In that case, the
cleric is left without powers till he returns to present (a way of
punishment for this risky business).
Feedback on this?
Annecians de Skie
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:05:42 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" <anpro@accesocero.es>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
>
I would say that a Wish is possible. The rulebooks state that it can be
used to change a demihuman into a human character class (and vice-versa).
The only difficult point would be a social and political one: in Alphatia,
being a magic.using individual would be seen as being "chosen" for rule,
thanks to the Immortals, Fate or whatever. Forcing that change by freely
giving the gift (nothing too difficult with 1000 36th level mages around)
would disrupt a traditional order of millennia, even if it is to an
Empress´ beloved son. It is the old judicial debate: a king makes law, but
is forced to abide by it, otherwise the whole system would be nonsense.
IMO, what gives cohesion to such an arbitrary system of choosing nobility
as Alphatia´s is that it is fair to all. No matter if your father is a
peasant or a king. It is your inborn Art what determines your fate. Put
kings to cast Wishes on nonmagical princes and it could create a very big
social turmoil from amongst the commoners, something unheard of in
Alphatia. It would have made a very interesting campaign, nevertheless,
although the Spell of Preservation will surely prevent it now for good.
Annecians de Skie
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:05:42 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?=" <anpro@accesocero.es>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
>
I would say that a Wish is possible. The rulebooks state that it can be
used to change a demihuman into a human character class (and vice-versa).
The only difficult point would be a social and political one: in Alphatia,
being a magic.using individual would be seen as being "chosen" for rule,
thanks to the Immortals, Fate or whatever. Forcing that change by freely
giving the gift (nothing too difficult with 1000 36th level mages around)
would disrupt a traditional order of millennia, even if it is to an
Empress´ beloved son. It is the old judicial debate: a king makes law, but
is forced to abide by it, otherwise the whole system would be nonsense.
IMO, what gives cohesion to such an arbitrary system of choosing nobility
as Alphatia´s is that it is fair to all. No matter if your father is a
peasant or a king. It is your inborn Art what determines your fate. Put
kings to cast Wishes on nonmagical princes and it could create a very big
social turmoil from amongst the commoners, something unheard of in
Alphatia. It would have made a very interesting campaign, nevertheless,
although the Spell of Preservation will surely prevent it now for good.
Annecians de Skie
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:43:55 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> The only difficult point would be a social and political one: in
Alphatia,
> being a magic.using individual would be seen as being "chosen" for rule,
> thanks to the Immortals, Fate or whatever. Forcing that change by freely
> giving the gift (nothing too difficult with 1000 36th level mages around)
> would disrupt a traditional order of millennia, even if it is to an
> Empress´ beloved son. <sniped>
>
A good argument, however with IMO a problem: Alphatian history/tradition
can record a time when every Alphatian was a spellcaster, and in fact the
Alphatians are troubled by the decline in the proportion of the population
capable of casting spells.
IMO, though, a good argument on your part because a Wish, as described in
the D&D rules, can change a character from human to meta-human and vice
versa, thus changing the class (and perhaps making the person into a
spellcaster). If this can be done, then one would think a Wish could change
something as "small" as the trait for spellcasting.
I think it is unlikely that the Alphatian spellcasters, the masters of the
world in their own minds, would restrict themselves in the use of spells on
their children with regard to attempting to infuse magical talent into them
(Alphatian spellcasters respect few if any restrictions on their freedom to
do as they please), but you do raise a good question: if a Wish can change
these other characteristics (race etc), then why can't it be used to make
someone capable of spellcasting?
I admit I have no answer to the question at this time. Time to ponder, I
guess. . . .
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:43:55 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> The only difficult point would be a social and political one: in
Alphatia,
> being a magic.using individual would be seen as being "chosen" for rule,
> thanks to the Immortals, Fate or whatever. Forcing that change by freely
> giving the gift (nothing too difficult with 1000 36th level mages around)
> would disrupt a traditional order of millennia, even if it is to an
> Empress´ beloved son. <sniped>
>
A good argument, however with IMO a problem: Alphatian history/tradition
can record a time when every Alphatian was a spellcaster, and in fact the
Alphatians are troubled by the decline in the proportion of the population
capable of casting spells.
IMO, though, a good argument on your part because a Wish, as described in
the D&D rules, can change a character from human to meta-human and vice
versa, thus changing the class (and perhaps making the person into a
spellcaster). If this can be done, then one would think a Wish could change
something as "small" as the trait for spellcasting.
I think it is unlikely that the Alphatian spellcasters, the masters of the
world in their own minds, would restrict themselves in the use of spells on
their children with regard to attempting to infuse magical talent into them
(Alphatian spellcasters respect few if any restrictions on their freedom to
do as they please), but you do raise a good question: if a Wish can change
these other characteristics (race etc), then why can't it be used to make
someone capable of spellcasting?
I admit I have no answer to the question at this time. Time to ponder, I
guess. . . .
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:51:52 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>
> He doesn't need to teleport himself inside the tanks, moving on top of it
> it's enough IMO.
>
Except that if their is no open hatch for the mage to cast the spell into,
then it won't work very well, IMO; the spell will just explode on the
outside of the tank. Neither the AD&D nor the D&D Fireball spells have much
barrier-penetrating capacity.
>
> 1 man for 1 tank it's a very good ratio IMO.
>
A guy who can teleport is at least 9th level, and a guy who is 9th level
*and* willing to sacrifice his life, these are somewhat rare "assets".
A 9th level mage should be able to think of a better way, in my opinion.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:55:59 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Now that I've been flamed for asking about something I was interested
>in, I think I'll re-post the question in different words (to all of you
>who tried to answer me already, thank you:).
Flame? Me? It wasnt intended as such, i just said what i already do.
Perhaps i was on My Throne and being condescending instead.
>What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
>children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
>have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
>mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
Hmm. test children? Well, there is a 3rd level spell in the Tome of Magic
which reveals if the target is a mage, or if the target has the capability
to one day become a mage, so there is a (if slightly unoriginal) means to
conduct such a test right there...
Rob
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:05:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Actually, I had a very selfish :) reason for posing the "wish" question
in the first place--IMC, a magically-capable Tredorian is taking over
where his nutso brother Zandor left off.
Wondering (this one I have a personal explanation for, but no canon
verification, as yet), though: I don't have PWA I or II. Did they
mention anywhere where the heck he was after WotI? When did he leave
Thyatis?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:40:40 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
>At least we can agree that the Beagle was not a LITTLE exploration
ship,
>can we?
Well, little compared to what? Think about what's out in the depths
of MystaraSpace. Draedens can be on the order of tens of miles long, and
if the GF has explored as much of space as long as it seems (remember,
they had Beagle-level technology six millenia ago), they must have run
into such threats, and must have a way of dealing with them.
Really nasty thought: Some powerful planet-spanning empire (either
magical, technological, or both) captures immature draeden, raises them
much as Thyatis raises dragons, rocs, et c., outfits them with even more
fearsome weaponry, and voila! The ultimate war machine!
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:43:36 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>> How could I manifest this genetic ability in game terms? Suggestions?
>If the GM (or DM?) decides that a NPC has to be a mage than he has this
>trait. If a player wants to play his newly rolled character as a mage
than
>he has this trait too.
>
>A really simple solution, without any real rules or even tables...
While this is good for game terms, what I would like to see is a
statistical breakdown of this gene geographically. Which countries have
got it most, which least, et c.. I recall something somewhere that said
before Landfall Alphatia had about 90%, but now it has dropped to 10% or
so. If one country can lose the gene, another could gain it, resulting
in a massive power shift within the country and without.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:49:53 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> the proportion of Alphatians who can cast spells has been dwindling
for millenia, and no doubt throughout that time they've tried all >kinds
of things to arrest the decline, and if it hasn't worked yet, I doubt
anything will work in the near future either.
But do the Alphatian mages truly want to arrest this decline? Sure,
for the nation it would be best to have 100% magical ability, but the
very ones who would be performing the research are those in power, and
they are in power by virtue of their rare gift: magic. If everyone in
Alphatia can use magic, the current aristocratic system would fall
apart, or at the very least remove some of the power base of the current
rulers. High level mages are notoriously self-serving and misanthropic
(look at Blackheart), and would not likely support research that would
undermine their power base.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:55:20 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
BTW--if everyone who
>was a true believer automatically received the Immortal's grace, then
>everyone would be a cleric; after all, why be a member of the laity
>when, for the same amount of devotion (plus some extra prayer time, of
>course), you could have spells and granted powers...
Because being a priest is not just getting spells (my cousin is one
in real life; he doesn't get spells, but the same principles apply). You
have to watch over your congregation, raise funds to support your
church, get involved in very nasty politcal disputes, get people to
attend services, and fix any and all problems your laity has. And that's
just the real world. In Mystara, you have to deal with constant quests
for dangerous artifacts, persecution if you're not the state religion,
evil priets declaring jihad, undead monsters invading your cemetary, and
many many other issues. In a nutshell, it's a full-time profession, and
your life and interests become wholly subservient to another power.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:56:29 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
><off topic>
>Wow.. That doesn't exactly explain why I can easily take one out with a
>nice happy A-Wing in XvT!
></off topic>
You're forgetting; you're the hero. You have to win.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:02:13 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [MYSTARA] - Time travel and its effects on clerics, paladins et al
>6) in special missions, the Immortal can send an avatar along (with or
without the PC knowing it). In that case, the PC cleric keeps all
powers. The avatar is difficult to keep, as it menaces paradox. The
Immortal can only keep an avatar in remote past for a number of days
equal to the HD of his Manifestation form.
Paradox is a problem, but perhaps there is already a fix. According
to WoTI, when the primary is on another plane than the avatar, they are
no longer in direct contact. Suppose that time-travel fits this
scenario: the avatar is ent back, but cannot communicate with the
primary. When the avatar returns, the resulting time difference forces
the avatar to return to the primary, but without detailed information on
what happened.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:23:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Genes aren't "contagious," though--just because Alphatians lose their
ability over time (i.e., it is "bred out" of them the longer they are on
this world) does not mean that someone else gets it (mercantilism for
genetics--interesting:-). What it MAY do, though, is provide a perfect
illustration of the magical inferiority (comparatively) of Mystara,
compared to the Alphatian home world. If Alphatians were at a certain
level, and have "come down" to the level of Mystarans, what does that
bode for the future of magical advancement on Mystara? It certainly
seems to mean that they will never reach the level of magical
advancement of Old Alphatia.
For you tech guys--does this bode ill or well for technomancy?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #621
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mystara-digest Monday, September 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 622
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:02:52 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Another possibility for Darokinian collapse:
For centuries, Darokin has been relying on Minrothad taders to move
their goods across Mystara. With the economic success, the heads of
Darokin's guilds have become greedy and slothful, accepting bribes to
further their vast coffers. By now, Darokin's leaders have become too
apathetic to truly care about their nation (which they invented to make
money anyway), and the only reason Daorkin hasn't collapsed is due to
the civic pride the commoners feel to the "democratic" state. In several
shady and unpublicized deals, Darokin's merchants have turned over
controlling interests in vital industries to Minrothad Guilds in
exchange for massive personal wealth. The Darokin guild leaders leave
for Ierendi, after embezzling as much money as they can, to spend the
rest of their lives on Adventure Island.
No one in Darokin is aware that the heads of the major guild houses
have been bought out by Minrothad until the new economic policies come
out: Darokin is now to be used by Minrothad purely for natural resources
and slave-wage labour. Corresponding layoffs place much of Darokin's
populace on the streets. Minrothad doesn't need much of Darokin's food,
and has Darokin instead focus on forestry and mining. As a result,
Darokin cannot feed all of its citizens, and those without jobs are the
worst hit. Darokin military units are called out to break up riots, but
many of the soldiers cannot bring themselves to attack the pitiful
wretches, and resign in protest. Those that are left are mostly a
sadistic lot, and several massacres of laid-off workers creates outrage,
both from within and without, as the Five Shires and Karameikos protest
Darokin's atrocities.
Meanwhile, many Darokinians are turning to the Cult of Loammi.
Loammi's clerics provide food for the general populace, and preach of
coming "Bringer of the Meal", who will relieve the burdens of the
oppresed Darokinians. Many begin to worship Loammi, and call for the
establishment of a theocracy and the removal of Minrothadi.
Riots become worse in Darokin, and the army is forced to offer
bounties to capture worker agitators. The miltary is spread so thin that
the guild heads make a deal with goblinoid tribes to assist in
maintaining "law & order." The famine has affected the tribes as well,
and agree to work in exchange for food and gold. The guild feel that
they have selected "workable" goblinoids, and believe that they can be
forced out of the country when the problems end.
In Minrothad, the kna rise up like never before. Aided by shark-kin
who have increasingly felt the encroachment by Minrothad, they attack
with a fury never before seen, often taking several soldiers out even as
they die. The attacks on the ships are just a ruse, though, to hide the
true assult. In league with certain devil-fish clerics (the kna and
shark-kin feel that they have no choice but to ally with the devil-fish,
and the enemy of my enemy...), kna and shark-kin shock troops secretly
begin infecting Minrothad with lycanthropy and vampirism, Minrothad's
two greatest fears. They target those who possess wealth and are in the
best position to transmit the diseases to others (such a restaraunts,
arms merchants, wine sellers, et c.). The plan works: within days,
Minrothad is forced into a reenactment of "The Night of Long Knives",
only this time Minrothadi forces are over-extended and often afflicted.
Minrothad is forced to withdraw all of its assets from Darokin, but
demands that Darokin send support, both military and resources. The
puppet guild masters comply.
With fewer soldiers on the streets, Darokinian workers renew their
protest. The response is swift and brutal: deciding that they cannot
contain the workers, the remaining soldiers and goblinoids slaughter the
protesting workers. Rumours periodically surface that many of the slain
are eaten by the goblinoid troops. Far from the intended effect, the
Darokin populace rises up in arms, and many of the guild masters are
slain. The surviving leaders retort with even greater savagery. Led by
Karameikos and the Five Shires, Darokin is expelled from the Western
Defense League.
Which is what Loammi was waiting for. Loammi was, in fact, Loki,
and the "Bringer" is none other than the Master. Hule's troops swarm out
of Sind, quickly seizing western Darokin, where, to everyone's suprise,
they accept The Master; they have been prepared through the cult, and
want an end to the warfare. In eastern Darokin, the remaining puppet
masters have been slain, and each individual city lies under the control
of a local strongman: a guild memeber, a rebel leader, a worker's
collective. The northern areas fall under the control of the goblinoid
horde and remnants of the out-of-control army. Aengmor takes advantage
of the ensuing chaos to seize lands surrounding the forest, freeing the
shadow elves from being land-locked in Darokin and forcing the human
residents to flee, adding to the refugee population.
The aftermath is a scorched one: the east has fallen under the
shadow of the Master, who can now send forth his minions to Glantri,
Ierendi, Minrothad, and western Darokin and Aengmor (not that any of
these will be succesful, mind you), while the west is a hodge-podge of
warring city-states and barbarian goblinoids. Refugess are scattered
across the landscape, as well as the accompaning bandits, who now roam
Darokin with impunity. Minrothad, now lacking support from Darokin,
grows even more chaotic as the diseases spread rapidly and kna attacks
increase. The collapse of the KW's two greatest economies will
undoubtably lead to problems and unrest across the KW, which includes
(dramatic music) Karameikos! As soon as I think of how exactly this
would affect any other country, I'll post is. Any one is free to add to
this little chain.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:07:04 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Genes aren't "contagious," though--just because Alphatians lose their
>ability over time (i.e., it is "bred out" of them the longer they are
on
>this world) does not mean that someone else gets it (mercantilism for
>genetics--interesting:-).
Sorry if that's what I sounded like. I didn't mean any connection
between one nation's growth and Alphatia's decline. I just meant that
over time, you could see a certain area gaining magically, just as you
would see Alphatia decline. In fact, recalling the regression to the
mean in statistics, Alphatia's decline in magic is probably a result of
having too much of it, and a previously un-magical culture could start
to get a lot more of it.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:05:03 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> Wondering (this one I have a personal explanation for, but no canon
> verification, as yet), though: I don't have PWA I or II. Did they
> mention anywhere where the heck he was after WotI? When did he leave
> Thyatis?
>
He was still in Thyatis; there was an event where one of the 2 Alph
airships (I think it was the Flying Fish but not positive) swung by to tell
him about the existance of mom, he sent back well wishes but decided to
stay in Thyatis.
*flip *flip *flip*
Ok, yah; I looked it up; Eirmont 15, PWA (1); Tredorian has married a
Thyatian woman and decides to settle down in Thy. (hey, and I was right for
once: it was the Flyin Fish).
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:10:42 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Genes aren't "contagious," though--just because Alphatians lose their
> ability over time (i.e., it is "bred out" of them the longer they are on
> this world) does not mean that someone else gets it (mercantilism for
> genetics--interesting:-). What it MAY do, though, is provide a perfect
> illustration of the magical inferiority (comparatively) of Mystara,
>
I think up to this point you're on to something, as this seems to be what
the Player's Guide to Alph. implies (plus, the "Old Alphatia" in the WotI
planar descriptions says that everyone is a spellcaster).
> compared to the Alphatian home world. If Alphatians were at a certain
> level, and have "come down" to the level of Mystarans, what does that
> bode for the future of magical advancement on Mystara? It certainly
> seems to mean that they will never reach the level of magical
> advancement of Old Alphatia.
>
Well, never is a long time, and folks may have different campaign
"futures" where magic becomes even more commonplace. I'd personally agree
with this take on things (Mystara is already a high magic world in any
event).
In fact, if one goes by the Glantri Gaz/NoS related stuff, then magic
drain means that in the future the power of magic will be even weaker than
it is now, and if that is the case it couldn't possibly reach the level of
magical development of Old Alph.
>
> For you tech guys--does this bode ill or well for technomancy?
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:21:39 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian Houses
In a message dated 1998-09-11 13:15:15 Eastern Daylight Time, hoc@nvg.ntnu.no
writes:
> Does anyone have any concrete ideas on how Darokin could split into
> fractions?
The most "canonical" way would be to use the existing merchant houses as
factions within Darokin. They will not generally make open war against one
another, but anything short of that probably goes. The main thing holding
the various houses in check is the fact that there are so many of them --
they must form a coalition that includes a majority of the government before
they can get anything done. Of course, the larger the coalition that is
formed,
the more limited their goals must be, as there would be ever fewer points that
the coalition members could agree upon.
If you want Darokin to break apart, one way to do it would be for a couple of
houses to decide that their interests have diverged from those of Darokin.
For example, House Al-Azrad may (in response to pressure from Ylaruam)
work towards having Selenica secede from Darokin and become part of
Ylaruam, or House Umbarth may decide to join Akesoli with Sind before
the Master forces the issue. If either of these movements is successful,
then the precedent will have been set, and the complete breakdown of
Darokin would become a possibility. On the other hand, if Darokin sees
the threat that such a precedent would cause, they might fight back against
this breakup -- but if it starts in remote areas such as Selenica or Akesoli,
then the effort is likely to be futile at best.
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Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam Curtis <ac2@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Someone wrote:
>><< Must say, I'm intreged by all these suggestions,
from all posters, and have saved these e-mails for
future use. Tell me, any ideas on what outside
factions might try marrying into these places? With
outright invasionruled out, I see all the neighbors
trying to add city-states to theirholdings through
inheritance, including big players from afar. . >><<
And James Ruhland <jruhlconob@sprynet.com> replied:
<< Hmmmn. . .for the most part I'd say they'd marry
into each other, but that wouldn't solve the problem
(in fact, these "dynastic marriages" typically,
on a general level, cause as many or more problems as
they "solve"). Various Karameikans might offer
marriage (eliments of the ruling family and also some
lesser nobles). Selenica would be a "plum" that the
Ylari might try to influence/aquire through marriage
ties, etc. and some Thyatian families of course may
try the same thing. >>
Given Darokin's current state of flux, I don't expect
its physical boundaries to remain the same either in
the net gazetteers or in canon if (WHEN ;) TSR
revives Mystara. However, Darokin is a *very*,
*extremely* divergent political entity for the
equivalent RL European time period. If Darokin
proper maintains at least a decent level of political
unity and efficiency (and it may have only gotten
stronger facing the past and imminent Hulean armies
of conquest), marriage won't detatch any territory of
Darokin.
I don't have the Darokin Gaz in front of me, but I
remember enough to know that decentralized elements
of Darokin (save the orc lands NE of Aengmor) are
minimal. Perhaps less than 5% (no more than 10%) of
Darokin land (again, outside the orc lands) belongs
to the Darokin feudal system. Their lords are given
autonomous powers within these realms, but the
Chancellor and the Council can make these lords yield
to practically any of their demands.
(My recollection is less certain here, but probably
good enough.) Most importantly, these lords are
appointed. Their lands may be inherited by next of
kin, but only through approval of the Council. And
even if all that isn't enough to dissuade foreign
suzeranity, the national government maintains the
right to centralize feudal lands with the stroke of a
pen.
The only viable entity in Darokin that probably could
secede easily would be Selenica given its remoteness,
its wealth, and its sizable population. However,
marriage won't effect Selenica's real political
status. The supreme authorities of the area are
merchants that maintain a seat upon the Selenican
City Council. It would be the council's will and the
wishes of Selenica's merchant guilds that would break
union with Darokin. Of course, there's little
imminent reason for Selenica to do so.
<< Problem would be distance (intervening
nations forming a physical barrier to unity), but
more importantly would be the cultural distance if
you will:
the gulf between social custom between the two
nations intended to be joined through marriage, a
long with the distaste the smaller entity would have
for being "absorbed" into a larger (especially
non-Darokinian)
state. About the only way to affect a *long term*
union would be adhesion through enforcement: use of
force to insure that irridentist/separatist eliments
don't disolve the newly forged ties. >>
I'll go slightly off topic, but it'll all come back
around to Darokin. Just looking solely in Western
Europe, vast culture gaps in a common state didn't
always equal state-threatening tensions.
Perhaps the worst example, though still viable, of
this phenomenon was the Hapsburg Empire (I know James
uses it for the opposite point below, but I'm using a
specific time period before Hapsburg degeneration).
It reached its height under the rulership of Holy
Roman Emperor Charles V. He did need to occasionally
use brute force to hold his realm together, but most
of the Hapsburg lands maintained an amicable
relationship with their supreme ruler.
The Hapsburg Empire then included Austria,
Austrian Hungary, Bohemia, Southern Italy, Sicily,
Corsica, Sardinia, Luxemburg, Alsace-Lorraine,
Franche-Comte, Genoa, Flanders, the Netherlands,
North African ports, assorted lesser German states,
Spain, Portugal, and practically all of the Western
Hemisphere from Patagonia to Colorado. The place was
*huge*, and it remained a remarkably stable realm
considering the amalgam of antagonistic forces within
the common state.
Another example: the United Kingdom. England itself
blended together Celtic, Saxon, Angle, Norse, Jute,
Roman, and Norman cultures rather peacefully (as far
as nation-building goes. Bloodshed is almost
unavoidable).
Whales came into the kingdom through conquest,
but it offered little trouble after a few generations
of union even though the culture remained decidedly
different.
Ireland . . . well, not much of it ever desired
to maintain under the Crown, just the Pale and (once
they emigrated from Scotland) Presbyterian Ulster.
And we've all seen *Braveheart*. Yes, Scotland
didn't want any part of the UK, but once the Scottish
Crown and Anglo-Irish Crowns were unified under James
Stuart, Scotland largely accepted the union with just
a few crises strewn about between 1600 to the present
(but even the most serious threat of Bonnie Prince
Charlie's revolt in the 1700s didn't receive popular
support in Scotland).
A better example: Spain proper. Spain is *not* a
homogenous nation culturally (it's even arguable that
there is no true Spanish culture, Spanish being the
sum of its parts).
Its primary component is the old Kingdom of
Castille (the default culture "Spanish" refers to),
it becoming the dominant Spanish state through its
greatest share of Iberian territory and population.
Then there's the Aragonian culture. I *think*
Aragonians are culturally very close to Castillians,
like a cultural dialect.
Then there are the Catalans, the second largest
Spanish culture and centered upon the city Barcelona.
They speak a completely different language than
Spanish (called Catalan) and maintain a dissimilar
culture from the Castillians.
Then there are the Galicians (the name might be
one of the other "Gaul" variations like Galatians,
but anyway I'm referring to the people of the NW
panhandle of Spain). They had a very strong Celtic
culture, and I believe it remains strong today.
And then comes the Basques, a group of people on
the Bay of Biscay that linguists cannot relate to any
other indo-european people through language (Catalan
and Spanish are both Romance Languages, the Celtic
tounges eventually relating to the Italic languages
farther back).
These are five distinct ethnicities with
different cultures and languages, yet Spain has
remained unified (barring short periods of war) with
little ethnic strife for over 500 years. Some
Basques are especially vociferous (terrorist Basque
groups do exist) in their desire to leave the Spanish
dominion, but at least more than half in the Spanish
Basque community is still amicable toward continued
union with Spain.
By far the best example: France. Like Spanish, the
word French debatably only refers to those who are
governed under a specific political entity, not an
ethnic group. There are seven distinct ethnic groups
in France, all mostly nominally loyal to France
throughout its history.
First comes the Frankish-Roman culture (what has
become the default culture "French" refers to). Most
French are of this ethnicity.
Next comes the Provencal culture, a completely
separate culture from the French (Frankish-Roman)
culture. Provencals speak their own language and
occupy most of mountainous SE France (known as
Provence).
Then there's the Flemish culture. The Flemish
also have a unique language like the Provencals and
inhabit France's northern nob east of Calais.
Very important is the German culture. France's
German population largely lives in Alsace and speaks
German (though I don't know if they speak an old
dialect or vernacular German).
And in France's far west extremity of Brittany
resides the Bretons, a celtic-speaking group that
left Britain during Rome's fall.
Corsicans, of a cultural offshoot of mainstream
Italian, comprise another sizable group upon their
Mediterranean island.
Finally, Basques also inhabit France as well as
Spain. French Basques are mainly found in the
vicinity of Bayonne in France's SW corner.
As you can see, the above cultural spread is
extremely diverse, but these groups fought little
along ethnic lines when incorporated into France. A
good majority of each culture upheld the French state
that ruled it throughout French history. Even the
Alsace Germans, contrary to popular belief, called
themselves "French" to show their strong allegiance
to the French State, even after Prussia detatched
them from France into the German Empire. During the
chaos of the French Revolution, almost all these
groups maintained allegiance to the French government
even though any one of them could have easily become
independent or could have invited a neighboring
power, like England, Spain, Austria, or the
Netherlands to move in.
This phenomenon of the times extends to all the
countries above and would expand to include almost
all of the Western Hemisphere nations, China,
Indonesia, Oceania, India, various smaller states,
and the European States of Italy, Greece, Belgium,
and the Netherlands. It's known as Political
Nationalism (allegiance to a political state as
nation). Unfortunately, its thusfar more turbulent
counterpart, known as Ethnic Nationalism (allegiance
to a distinct culture as nation), has proven the more
alluring philosophy since its rise in the 19th century.
>><< recognizing the power of trade and commerce, I
see suitors coming from as far away as The Isle of
Dawn, Savage Coast, and even ambitious Guildsmen from
Minrothad (can you say mega-merger?)>><<
<< Problem with some of these, as mentioned above,
would be the impracticality of a "union" between
distant nations, even in a fantasy world. What could
happen is something along the lines of the Hapsburg
Inheritance. But note two (at least) things about that:
1) the Hapsburg rulers governed their
"empire" through a collection of crowns, not a
unitary state. >>
Quick note: the Austrian Hapsburgs consolidated the
Austrian, Hungarian, and Bohemian Crowns into one
Crown after the branching of Hapsburgs into the
Austrian and Spanish lines. Austria continued to
increase its power up to WWI and remained a major
power until that time. The Spanish Hapsburgs never
consolidated their crowns and tumbled from prominence
after Philip II within another century.
<< Each nation within the Hapsburg domain remained
distinct, with distinct government, legal, and
institutional practices, which made the
"conglomerate" very difficult to rule, resulting in
(vollentary, and involentary) division of it into
more managable chunks. >>
Yep. This practice mainly escalated when Charles V,
one of Europe's greatest administrators to ever live,
had to detatch Austria from what his son, Philip II,
would inherit. Philip was a very effective ruler,
but the task of managing so dynamic an empire, even
without its most volatile part, proved too much for
him (shows you just how phenomenal Charles was at his
job).
But before then, the Hapsburg realm was
relatively stable despite differences in ethnicities
(it just got too *big*, and the Reformation didn't
help at all).
<< 2) by its very nature, it was unstable; not
a friendly collection of happily cooperating realms,
there was an (unhealthy) rivalry between the parts, >>
Perhaps it was healthy to start, but it did get way
out of control after Charles V.
<< and the very appearance of strength encouraged
other nations (most noitably France & Brittain) >>
France *did* make it a national priority of
relentlessly slugging at Hapsburg unity becoming
without a doubt the Hapsburg Empire's eternal
arch-enemy (but that's what happens when you control
all the land borders of a neighboring power).
However, the UK's meddling with the Hapsburg Empire
was no where *near* the level achieved by France.
The only direct threat the UK ever faced from the
Hapsburgs was the Armada. Hence it became of primary
importance to the UK to actively fight the Hapsburgs
on the sea and in the Netherlands for maybe one or
two generations until the direct Hapsburg threat
vanished for the rest of history. Compared with
France's centuries-long struggle, it hardly compares
(but makes a great moment of history).
<< A Savage Coast nation, which has its own
set of problems, would possibly dream of the benifits
of adding a rich Darokinian city to their domain,
thinking that by doing so they would gain increased
resources to help them solve their present
difficulties. I.E. they envision a whole that is
greater than the sum of its parts. >>
Only there's that little problem of Hule . . . more
below.
<< What is more likely to occur is that they
will retain their present problems, inherit the
problems of the Darokinian city-state, and by trying
to create a union between very different realms,
create a whole new set of problems. In other words,
they will develop a "whole" that is *less* than the
sum of its parts, and the ruler in question will be
dividing their attentions to these problems in ways
that would make them hard to solve any one of them
before other dificulties became pressing. >>
Though I'd arrive to that end result in a very
different manner, I fully agree :)
<< Their ain't no such thing as a free lunch,
not in geopolitics. >>
Once in a while there is. One RL example would be
Hawaii for the US. The Thyatian Hinterlands would be
a Mystaran example.
But those instances are truly rare.
Despite all my analysis, I don't want to take any
guess on how Darokin will weather the coming years.
Right now, political union seems strong, but it could
change with almost no warning, especially in the
shadow of Hule. But here's one more wrinkle I'd like
to add:
Darokin is known as "The Land of Leftovers". It is
truly the only country in the Old World that doesn't
have fully geographically-defined borders. In fact,
most of its border is wide open land (like the
western Russian border) and untenable without
relative peace or heavy military presence. Also, the
only access to Darokin from the ocean is from two
port cities or an insane trip through the Malpheggi
Swamp, and even then it takes prohibitive travel to
reach the more valuable parts of Darokin.
Materialwise, Darokin has little to offer besides
manpower and farmland, nothing like the mineral-rich
territories of most of its neighbors. Finally, Hule
is (or soon will be) ready to launch a full-scale
annexation campaign in Darokin, the Five Shires will
throw its full military force into Darokin to bolster
the defense, and the Shadowelves with their odd magic
could intervene on either side.
Anyone ambitious (actually foolish) enough to snatch
land in Darokin right now better be able to deal with
low revenues and entire armies using the corn fields
as a personal highway. Better to wait until at least
the military threats go away.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:40:42 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-12 10:27:22 EDT, vanquer@softhome.net writes:
<< Hello Alex,
I cut the "discussion" that we have been having on the
tank debate. Having been born/raised around the military
I have no disagreements with the things that you've brought
up in this and similar posts.
While you did in fact kill the majority of the statements that
I made using the spell list that I did, I have to give a couple of
added (new) thoughts- then leave the ball in your court as to
whether you'd like to continue the discussion or not.
Then whether you'd like to stay on the list or go private with
it if you decide that you'd like to continue...>>
i appreciate your cador in the matter. i never served in the armed forces due
to health problems. thanks to sports and some stupid mistakes on my part,
there was no way i could have served in the capacity that family history and
tradition dictated. from that tradition i gained an appreciation for
militaria.
"killing those spells" was easy as they were low level spells. these are the
"weakest" spells. that mage would be fighting four crewmen and their
mount...the tank. a mage restricted to 1st and 2nd level spells is going to be
hardpressed to take out a tank. so imo higher level spells are needed for a
fighting chance. which is a shame because i for one like for mages to be
creative with low level spells.
as for continuing this thread, i will (unless Leroy says otherwise) as tech
vs. magic does have a bearing on mystara. plus, the discussion has presented
some interesting uses and theories for spells. however, i won't repeat any
info. not only has the info been put up once or twice, but there is no need to
put the list through it again and again. likewise, i won't debate opinions as
that usually leads to flaming. you cannot debate opinions. regarding a tech
vs. magic debate, opinion does weigh in heavily due to interpretation of the
two clashing.
<<The area that the tank is in could be scryed with minimal difficulty
and no risk to the Mage via a mess of potential spells.
Finding out the major weakness of a tank (blind-spots) should not
be too difficult in this fashion either.>>
scrying would help a mage. but i have to wonder if a mage would be able to
analyze the scryed info. there's not alot of mystara stuff he could relate it
to. what would a mage relate the particulars of a M1 to? imc i'd allow the
scrying but add that the mage need time to research the particulars and work
out an interpretation of them. sucess or failure depends on the mage's
conclusions. of course to test them would require the mage to initiate a spell
melee.
<<The Mage's basic benefits are a generally much higher intelligence,
and the ability to get much better "Reconnaissance" accomplished
much quicker.>>
i don't know. the modern armies require the soldiers to be fairly intelligent.
reading and writing are a must. using and comprehending the high tech weapons
should be considered intelligence based skills. you could even say some
aspects with computers qualify as knowing another language.
<<Round-1
Teleport should not be a problem for getting the Mage into a blind-
spot around the tank (or at least under cover within 200-300 yards).
As the Crew is not even aware of the arrival of our Mage they have
no appreciable actions.>>
[snip]
i assume this to be a "first contact" scenario between tankers and mage. blind
spots are a given in a solitary tank encounter. blind spots are negated with a
standard tank platoon with real time recon being fed to the tank crews. but
for the sake of the scenario we'll say for whatever reasons this tank is
operating well ahead of its fellows.
okay this round based scenario would work. using higher level spells is the
way to go. i will say this though, if i was the tech military commander i'd
accept the loss of a tank if it meant a high level mage had a good chance of
being killed. plus losing one tank is a fair price to gain the recon on what
the natives can do with magic.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:41:00 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-12 11:18:09 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
<< >Well....imc i would rule that the illusion seen through a sight aid would
be
>compromised. a sight aid is to aid the gunner and commander in seeing the
>target despite visual deterents and obstructions. an illusion qualifies as
>both of those.
all it does is enhance what is already there! Its no True Seeing spell.>>
[snip]
i guess we will have to agree to disagree regarding the illusions.
> Maybe, but spells stop infravision (ie IR sights), and solid fog has a
> visibility of less than 1 foot. This is not normal fog. Think of it as
> VIRRS smoke (visul and infrared smoke :) which tanks have to fool these
> advanced sights :) The only sights on a modern tank are IR and image
> intensification (thats just amplifying existing light, and as beyond 1'
> there is no light that wouldnt work either.>>
>
>i thought it was 2 feet. it doesn't matter the fog would only be minor
>nuisance. that's the great thing about mobile armor. it can push through
the
>fog quickly. a twenty foot deep wall of fog is nothing for a 125,890 pound
AFV
>that can accelerate to 40+m.p.h. like a sportscar. and for the caster
standing
>within 30 yards of the fog wall, that spells trouble. the tank dashes out
>coaxial and command cupola mgs blazing. wind would also factor limiting the
>fog's duration for following AFVs.
Hohoho. Unless it was Solid Fog, in which case the tank will be going a
couple of feet per round :). Of course, the crew dont know this... And
solid fog (indeed, most magical fogs) are not affected by anything but the
most severe winds.>>
the given spell was Wall of Fog, not Solid Fog. solid fog restricts movement
not stopping it dead in its tracks like hitting a brick wall: 1 foot per
round. and imo firing a HEAT round or 40mm grenade would act as the "magical"
fire attack and burn it away.
as for the wind factor for Wall of Fog-
"duration can be halved by a moderate wind, and can be blown away by a strong
wind" Wall of Fog spell description PHB.
<<Imagine a Death Fog spell! No tank will make it out of there... Well, they
may be if the crew promptly about face and go back the way they came, but
they arent going to know whats going on...>>
actually being a fog based attack NBC gear for the tank would protect the
crew. imo a RW equivelant for the Death Fog spell would be nerve gas or
nuclear fallout.
<<Hohoho. Wraithform, or Find Traps. (Or a thief!) And the way to defeating
an enemy force is Hearts and Minds. If the marines are too scared to open
their ammo boxes, because there is some undetectable trap been placed on it
(well, I suppose engineers would be D+D thieves, with Find Remove Traps)
then that detracts from the forces fighting ability.>>
the wraithform would work to aid recon purposes. casting find traps would
alert the peremeter defenses to any "sapper cleric". he/she has to speak to
cast it. and detecting the traps/defenses does not negate them or allow the
cleric to know the specifics to disarm them. as for thieves, i'd have to
penalize them in any attempt at removing any trap. this is alien stuff which i
doubt the local theives guild has any experience in dealing with. and imo a
pair of NV goggles or a NV scope negate the hide in shadows ability. which
would be sappers would not know about. sentry controlled defenses and weapons
would then come into play.
<<For that matter, clerics could put a few Glyphs of Warding around the place
while they are at it - there is some nasty stuff that that could do to few
low level (dare i say 0 level in the case of conscripts?) marines.>>
imo encampment attacks would be double edged events. the sappers would learn
hard lessons about these strange invaders. while the troopers would learn
about the local's traits. given the tech troops's strengths, i have to think
sappers would be less likely to return to report their encounter with
defenses.
<< And another fun thing of the xD+D Hero System (ie hit points). I would say
a claymore mine probably inflicts 10d6 damage in a cone formation, save vs
spells for half. So the high level guys would be able to dodge and weave
through the defences anyway :-).>>
i don't know. i have been trying to draw up some tech weapon DnD/ADnD stats.
10d6 sounds reasonable for the claymore. claymore mines are set up to enact a
crossfire so would have multiple mines going off at the same time and
showering the targets. and a claymore going off will attract sentry and troop
attention...if the sentries hadn't set the thing off himself. so then you have
M-16s and what not coming into play.
<<For comparison, being hit by a 16-17th century cannon ball does d12 x 5
damage in AD+D terms :-) (Or so it says in the Mighty Fortress book).>>
i could agree with that in certain situations. what does it give for
scattershot? there could be a comparison with fragmentation weapons such as
the claymore and grenade.
> << He could also cast Avoidance on all their tanks, which
> makes them effectively unusable (unless the USMC have Dispel Magic, i
think
> not!). >>
>[other spells snipped]
>
>they might have mages of their own, drawn from nations opposed to whoever
the
>marines are invading. what nation wouldn't be tempted by the prospect of
[snip]
Well, I wasnt assuming that the Apprentice was being sent out to take out
the USMC. I was assuming that an adventure featuring this stuff would
probably involve some sort of rift transporting a USMC company into Mystara
(perhaps under the control of some evil guy like Landryn Teriak - or perhaps
Hitler worked out an Interdimensional Warp Field device and didnt commit
suicide at all, he legged it to Mystara with some SS :-)>>
the original debate regarded low level spells. that is what i focused upon. i
am really unsure how the USMC came into this thread. anyway another adventure
could have a mystaran invasion of earth. the foreseen walkover of the
nonspellcasting populace would be quickly dispelled as the mystaran legions
are ripped into.
some on the list will remember the "guns in mystara" related discussion
earlier this year. those that do should remember my opposition to implementing
firearms into the setting. this discussion reflects that stance. imo even
simple firearms would knock things out of balance. so modern assault weapons
and AFVs would really kill the setting.
>this is all fun though. it's theoretical warfare between tech and magic. you
>can draw conclusions based on rw similarities. chobham armor is supposed to
>be able to shrug off SABOT and HEAT rounds. NBC equipment is a counter to
>biological, nuclear fallout, and chemical warfare agents. sight and vision
>equipment counters visual hindrences of the battlefield.
Sight and vision equipment would counter certain visual hindrances. But
illusions are not one of them, IMHO.>>
again...we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the illusions.
<<Chobham armour may well be able to stand up to fireballs, and if thick
enough lightning bolts, but it certainly isnt going to stand up to a
disintegrate.>>
disintegrate is what a sixth level spell? so it falls into the more powerful
spell category. my opposition is to 1st and 2nd level spells taking out a
tank.
<<(Incidentally, adamantium exists in xD+D, and it is supposed to be some
sort
of Mythically Hard and Indestructible Substance, so Chobham (even though
it's English :-) probably doesnt match up to that.)>>
i'd probably compare chobham and DU very favorably to adamantium. iirc
adamantium is mythically hard but not indestructable. i'd probably classify it
as being comparable to a rw refined alloy. maybe like tungsten, titanium, or
iridium.
>tanks such as the M1a2 were designed to counter Warsaw Pact AFVs. imo they
>stack up pretty darn good against magic users too. now think about
blackmoor
>created tanks. they knew about magic and probably had their share of mages.
>knowing about tech they could gain the benefits of a modern tank. they
could
>also supply their tanks with enchantments and countermeasures directly
>intended for magic.
yeah, thats the Really scary thing. Just proof that Blackmoor is an
Ubernation :-) >>
that's why i have most of their weapons in decrepid conditions. even the
weapons that work do not work to their full original condition.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #622
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mystara-digest Monday, September 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 623
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
[MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]-ONLINE GAME
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:40:52 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
In a message dated 98-09-12 11:05:36 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
<<Well, it takes out a 10 x 10 x 10' cube of anything.>>
as is the spell affects all materials the same. imo area affected should vary
depending on the material the spell is cast upon.
>imc a sight would not be fooled by an illusion. the gunner or commander
>looking at it with the naked eye might but the truth would be seen when the
>gunner or commander looks into the sight. US tankers are trained to use
their
>light enhancement sights even in daylight. I wish Brant was on the list. he
>could explain some of this through first hand experiences.
I definitely do NOT agree with this!>>
[snip]
agree or disagree it doesn't matter to me. the around the clock use of the
light enhancement sight is factual. i have seen footage of crews stating this,
read texts stating it, and seen footage of the sight displays being used in
day and in night conditions.
as for the sight not being fooled by illusions....you can agree or disagree.
imo the sight computer would present the real picture to the viewer.
<<And fire charm charms because of the hypnotic way in which the flames that
it is cast upon dance. So that would definitely go through a sight - if you
are looking at it, you could be charmed by it.>>
charm spells are interesting to ponder. charms can be broken. through
rationalization. tanker attitudes of unity and teamwork can "pursuade" an
affcted crewman to snap out of it. the loader, not looking out can simply pimp
slap an affected crewman back into reality. the contemporary tank crew lay out
is based on teamwork, confidence, and efficiency.
<< Thing is, a lot of magic just ignores technology. At the end of the day, a
120mm Rheinmetall damages the target the same way as a catapult boulder (ie
kinetic energy), and so the same magical defences that could be used on a
catapult boulder apply equally to the 120mm... (The point being, in terms of
magic, the M1A2s attack is not particularly special - just consider it to be
an extra lethal catapult...)>>
no there just isn't a canon reference key to easily compare magic to tech. you
assume that a 120mm HEAT or SABOT round is equivelent to a catapult
projectile. imo that is ludicrous. velocity and impact characteristics are the
two most differing factors. to compare them on a similar level would be like
comparing a bow and arrow to an assault rifle.
<<Chobham armour is likewise irrelevant, as most spells will happily blow
diamond away, and the damage that spells do is tied to level. So a
lightning bolt by a 12th level caster will penetrate 6" of Chobham armour
(as it would 6" of diamond), and a disintegrate means the tank needs a 17 on
a save vs disintegration or it loses a 10'x10'x10' chunk of itself.>>
chobham is highly resistant to kinetic (SABOT) and heat (HEAT) attacks. take
that fireball spell that has been suggested. a fireball would not detonate
inside. since it would strike the tank's exterior it would detonate on the
outside. chobham can resist the extreme heat of shaped charge rounds that burn
through hardened armour plating. surely it can shrug off a fireball that has a
heat factor only effective up to soft metals such as gold and silver.
a lightning bolt would be more effective but i doubt it would penatrate the
hull before glancing off as if it had struck a stone wall. disintegrate would
work to kill a tank. however, the mage then has to deal with four armed and
armoured crewmen coming out of the hatches.
<<Besides, the One True Spell versus tech armies has Got to be Death Spell.
IRL a force ceases to be an effective fighting force after it has taken
between 25% and 50% casualties. Death Spell could wipe out whole companies,
and just decimate the opposition. And range is a moot point, because a mage
has any number of a thousand means of getting within range. And if the
enemy doesnt have access to magic, a fair number of these are foolproof.>>
spells like the Death Spell are effectively weapons of mass destruction. as
such, id offer a survival chance based on NBC equipment and gas/chemical
equipment carried by the infantry. though admitedly this counter applies more
to Death Fog.
and speaking of casualty rates, i am sure a tank or two could seriously weaken
the mystaran ranks and resolve before the tanks approached visual range and
were taken out. 25% is well within the capabilities of a M1. an Abrams could
stand off a 1000 yards from the opposing ranks and fire away with its coaxial
and cupola mgs. btw given the tank's armour against regular fighter troop
weaponry, i'd say the tank would be virtually unkillable. i see little
prospect of swords and arrows doing any more than scuffing the paint of a
tank.
<<I just know that in an adventure its probably going to a gang of 12th+
level
adventurers against the USMC. And my money is most definitely on the 12th
level gang of adventurers. Using D+D rules magic is far less versatile (ie
it just kills things) and so it would probably be a more even fight.>>
given the size of the USMC and the notorious Marine tenacity things could get
messy. it should be noted that the USMC is larger and packs more firepower
than most first world nations' armies. the USMC is effectively a self
contained army. to take on the USMC with a gang of mid level NPCs/PCs is
taking on a combined arms tactical force. every marine is a Marine and
rifleman. cooks, mechanics, and even latrine boys can take up a M-16 and fight
with a tenacity near equal to that of a frontline trooper.
<<(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform cast upon himself?
Basically, they have no means of stopping the guy in their entire armoury.)
>>
how is a mage using wraithform going to take out the entire USMC? that mage
cannot attack the troops so is a moot point. since certain weapons like a 40mm
grenade launcher or a HEAT round or a Claymore offer comparable affects as
offensive magical spells i'd allow them to harm the wraithform mage.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:41:06 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
In a message dated 98-09-12 11:31:33 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
<<
>well tankers are not 6 week wonders. US tankers train religiously. their
>regimine is second only to the fighter jocks. so whereas a infantryman
would
>be a F1 or F2. a tanker would be F3 to F5. so tankers would save vs.
whatever
>more often than a foot soldier. tankers are an elite force and should be
>recognized as such.
Hmm. I dont think so. These guys arent exactly "blooded", which is what
separates level 1 from level 2.>>
being blooded in war should not really matter too much. US armour training at
Ft. Knox and the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin are pretty intense and
realistic. tank simulators and in the field combat against the elite opposing
force (OPFOR) using MILES gear is as real as you can get. this training
manifest itself in Desert Storm. iirc some NATO armoured units train at the
NTC.
<<Tankers maybe have all sorts of nice proficiencies which may take years of
practice, but that doesnt equate to hard levels. Level 5??????? Yeah
right. Even being kind and giving them half xp for training exercises
(which i wouldnt do personally) level 5 is a tad high. Level 2, maybe.>>
tank crews are of various ranks. commanders are either Lts. or Sgts. hence the
lvl. 3-5. the rest of the crew falls within the pfc-to nco range. some are
even warrant officers. tankers rarely are put into tank training straight out
of recruitment indoctrinization. they become infantry then are brought up to
tanker school.
<<Besides, its irrelevant as the difference is saving throw is negligible.
(5%). >>
it may be but a slight advantage to saves for the majority of the crew but it
is an advantage. then there is the added hp/hd.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:41:18 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-12 20:36:41 EDT, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes:
<< >i won't oppose that assessment. that's all true for the NoS under
glantri
>city. however, the Shadow Elf NoS was the one i was referring to. that
model
>is untouched and unalterred by immortals.
Maybe I misread Gaz13, but I interpreted it to say that it was
created under the direct supervision of Rafiel (an immortal) as an exact
duplicate of the NoS (pre-WoTI modifications), which would imply one
just as described in Gaz3. On the other hand, it also says that the
Chamber of the Spheres (CoS; I invented a new acronym!) doesn't drain
magic quite the same as the NoS (via soul crystals), so it could have
some other, fundamentl differences. Rafiel would know about technology,
being a nuclear physicist, but I got the impression he was trying to
create a magical reactor to create more immortals, just like the NoS. >>
rafiel supervised his SE to build it. in canon sources the CoS isn't finished.
it was just finished in the last net-almanac. the SE used the soul crystals to
draw upon the NoS in Glantri without suffering the immediate affects of the
radiation.
rafiel started the CoS to test his own sanity. i tend to think he is also
trying to dismiss the soul crystal and deformed infants side effects. imo the
CoS being untouched by immortals will not have the rotting affect like
glantri's NoS.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:41:13 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
In a message dated 98-09-12 11:38:55 EDT, rmunch@easynet.co.uk writes:
<< > >>Magic Missile- this can take shells right out of the air.
> >against a tank, magic missile is a good if not underpowered option. using
> it
> >to shoot fired shells out of the air is not feasible. even subsonic
> travelling
> >munitions would be too fast to aim at. heck you cannot even see the
things.
> Actually, large calibre rounds are visible to the naked eye. Another thing
to
> consider is that the Mage doesn't have to "aim" the magic missile, he
simply
> needs to catch a glimpse of the target.>>
Magic missiles dont actually affect inanimate objects anyway :-)>>
i was focusing on the theory of targeting in on a fired 120mm tank round. as
an aside, my old group had a house rule regarding magic missile. once a mage
eclisped the max number of missiles he could target inanimate objects.
>getting within casting range is one thing doing critical damage is another.
>for its size and nature i'd say a tank would use hull points instead of
>hitpoints. taking damage while sparing the crew is another of the Abrams's
>attributes. i've seen test footage of M1's rolling over mines, being used
as
>target practice, and surviving artillery bursts. and those do not include
the
>depleted uranium clad tanks. so heavy strength spells are needed.
Well, assuming that an M1A2 has a fairly standard armour configuration for
its tonnage, its probably got upto 12" front armour on the front. And about
1" on the back...>>
i looked into a few resource materials for rear armour thickness. the one that
most assuredly has it is out of hand (i have no idea where it is). looking at
other references, i took notice of a few pics of the tank's rear with the
engine removed and the tank under construction. from these, i'd estimate rear
armor to be about two inches thick. i couldn't tell about the armoured exhaust
grilling. this doesn't include equipment attached to the rear which can offer
a spaced armour affect. this also doesn't include any addition engine plating
or the engine itself.
[snipped the falklands stuff]
<<But - in xD+D terms the 12th level gang are exceptionally elite! A soldier
is going to be either level 1 or level 0, depending on the quality of his
training. Blooded troops may be a higher level, but I wouldnt place any
soldier (Alphatian or otherwise :-) above level 3. Spec forces would be
higher, but the adventurers are going to be capable of still higher levels
:-)>>
elite according to their class and in a sword and sorcery theatre. but guns
are the almighty equalizer. and modern tech would tip the scales to favor the
techno troops even more.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:46:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
The BEST Darokin-Minrothad collapse scenario as yet (I bow in humble
defeat...:-)...Although I must admit that I saw the Hule thing coming!
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:49:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Who else do you think would be gaining in magical knowledge as Alphatia
declines (NOT Glantri)? Are you working post-WotI?--if so, have you
established a magical school anywhere besides Karameikos?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:45:59 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> before Landfall Alphatia had about 90%, but now it has dropped to 10% or
> so. If one country can lose the gene, another could gain it, resulting
> in a massive power shift within the country and without.
>
Well, for Alphatia it is actually more like 20% (one fifth, per DotE
P.G.t.Alph), droping due to the low birth ratio of Alphatian spellcasters.
The similar way to "gain" would be if the spellcasters of a nation had a
higher birth ratio than non-spellcasters within that nation, resulting in a
shift over time.
IMO, as far as the general "MagiGenetic" topography of Mystara as a whole,
I would suspect that it is basically uniform throughout Mystara outside
Alphatia and the "hot spot" of Glantri. The major difference is that other
realms may not cultivate it as efficiently: I.E. no "testing" for it, mages
may be shunned in a culture (I.E. Ethengar), so few potential mages
actually become mages, or it could be that the availability of appropriate
vocational education is lacking. IMO, outside special areas where "testing"
for the "trait" is common, it is these factors (cultural ones) that will be
more important in determining how many mages a society has; the "genetic"
factor forms an upper limit, though.
Doesn't really answer your full question, I know, but otoh, any chart of
%s that I'd make would be nothing more than my own personal guestimate, and
folks have widely different opinions on how common mages, and magic in
general, should be in their own campaigns, so I'll leave that undone for
now.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:50:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
...Tredorian in Thyatis...
I'm absolutely heartbroken...:)...Now I'm WAY off canon...Ah,
well...(sigh)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:02:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
A well-written response with many good points, Adam. One question: a
Hulean invasion (assumed successful) would bring ia very different
culture (Turkish/Ottoman influence) into play here; do you really see it
being ultimately compatable, or would the incompatbility lead to the
re-establishment of the Darokinian state (or a collection of
city-states)?
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:14:38 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
> equivalent RL European time period. If Darokin
> proper maintains at least a decent level of political
> unity and efficiency (and it may have only gotten
> stronger facing the past and imminent Hulean armies
> of conquest), marriage won't detatch any territory of
> Darokin.
>
Oh, I'd agree with the above. We were talking about a "notional" Darokin
where the central government of the Republic has collapsed (for whatever
reason) and the nation devolved into city-states. IMO, even in such an
eventuality, the resulting mess would remain broadly "Darokinian" and not
be absorbed by another power through marriage (witness Italy from the Dark
Ages to the 19th century: divided into a hodge-podge, but still retaining
its "Italian" character regardless of the vissicitudes of international
politics).
>
>
> I'll go slightly off topic, but it'll all come back
> around to Darokin. Just looking solely in Western
> Europe, vast culture gaps in a common state didn't
> always equal state-threatening tensions.
>
> Perhaps the worst example, though still viable, of
> this phenomenon was the Hapsburg Empire
>
The Hapsburg Inheritance was almost always at war (ok, true, this statement
could be made about almost every contemporary nation), however it was *not*
very stable, and was almost always at war with itself. It was for the very
reason of the Hapbsburg dominion's fundimental ungovernability that Charles
V (or was it Phillip II? I can't recall now. . .) decided to split it into
two portions, shucking off the traditional Hapsburg "core" in Austria (and
with it IIRC the "imperial" title over the mess that was and remained
Germany) to try and make the remainder more managable.
>
> Another example: the United Kingdom.
>
A special case, IMO, since its island nature made its experience different
from the rest of Europe. Btw, the "union" of Scotland with England to form
the United Kingdom was a process that took centuries, and some might say it
never really took at all (witness current "devolution" debates in
contemporary Britain).
> Whales came into the kingdom through conquest,
> but it offered little trouble after a few generations
> of union even though the culture remained decidedly
> different.
>
A point I think I made when I said it was in some respects easier to absorb
territory through conquest than it is through peaceful union (I.E.
marriage).
> These are five distinct ethnicities with
> different cultures and languages, yet Spain has
> remained unified (barring short periods of war) with
> little ethnic strife for over 500 years.
>
And it achieved that unity after 500 years of squabbling. Of course it is a
fine example of achieving unity through marriage, but almost a unique one.
> By far the best example: France.
>
A nation that spent most of the middle ages in a worse state of disorder
than even the conglomeration known as the "Holy Roman Empire". Hardly a
historical model of unified stability: on numerous occassions the Frankish
"King" governed only the "ile du France" in the immediate vicinity of Paris
itself.
>
> Quick note: the Austrian Hapsburgs consolidated the
> Austrian, Hungarian, and Bohemian Crowns into one
> Crown after the branching of Hapsburgs into the
> Austrian and Spanish lines.
>
But that didn't take, and ultimately (on the eve of WWII) the mess became
the "Dual Monarchy" (the Hungarians brought on board to help repress some
of the other folks as "partners" with the Austrians), and IIRC it even
became a "Triple Monarchy" for a time before the whole mess flew apart
under the presure of war.
> Austria continued to
> increase its power up to WWI and remained a major
> power until that time.
>
The Hapsburg aglomeration suffered relative decline throughout the 19th and
early 20th century. I can't remember, was it von Moltke (the younger) who
said during WWI "We have shackled ourselves to a corpse" (refering to
moribund Austria-Hungary)? I do know it was one of the German dudes. I do
remember that the Austrian Emperor (was it Franz Joseph? Franz Ferdinand? I
can't remember that, either) was once told that a certain subject was a
good patriot, and his response was "yes, but is he a patriot for me?" The
dude was a very wise man, but he governed an essentially anachronistic
realm, and in his heart he seems to have known it. . . .
>
> Despite all my analysis, I don't want to take any
> guess on how Darokin will weather the coming years.
> Right now, political union seems strong, but it could
> change with almost no warning, especially in the
> shadow of Hule.
>
Especially since IMO Hosadus' modus operandi shouldn't be full-scale
invasion with massed armies, but subversion from within, scheming and
planting plots to cause Darokin to fly apart (perhaps & probably it is the
machinations of Hosadus that insures that the SC Baronies are disunited).
That could make for an interesting campaign, btw. . .
Then, once Darokin has been weakened from within, and especially if strife
has broken out, he can ride in. . .
>
> annexation campaign in Darokin, the Five Shires will
> throw its full military force into Darokin to bolster
> the defense,
>
Damn. I'll bet the Master trembles every time he thinks of that
possibility. Quite a deterant. 8-)~
>
> Anyone ambitious (actually foolish) enough to snatch
> land in Darokin right now better be able to deal with
>
Hosadus could probably grab Akesoli and hold it without much trouble.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:16:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> But do the Alphatian mages truly want to arrest this decline? Sure,
> for the nation it would be best to have 100% magical ability, but the
> very ones who would be performing the research are those in power, and
> they are in power by virtue of their rare gift: magic.
>
Yes, but it would take a great degree of unity of purpose for the current
Mages (and past ones over 2 millenia) to successfuly styme reasurch. And
Alphatian mages aren't known for their essential unity of goals. . . .
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:19:39 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> ...Tredorian in Thyatis...
>
> I'm absolutely heartbroken...:)...Now I'm WAY off canon...Ah,
> well...(sigh)
>
Bah, big deal. Sticking with canon is overated anyhow (says someone who, in
his heart, thinks he's commiting a grave crime by deviating from canon. .
.but does it anyhow. 8-)
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:22:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations
Well, I'm not Adam (but I play him on T.V.), but IMO Hule could
probably be able to secure the region for the forseeable future: after all,
the folks you mention (Turks/Ottomen) conquered regions containing very
different cultures, and managed to keep their grips on many/most for 3-5
centuries, which is long enough in game terms to be considered effectively
permanent (unless you're running campaigns of epic length).
>
> A well-written response with many good points, Adam. One question: a
> Hulean invasion (assumed successful) would bring ia very different
> culture (Turkish/Ottoman influence) into play here; do you really see it
> being ultimately compatable, or would the incompatbility lead to the
> re-establishment of the Darokinian state (or a collection of
> city-states)?
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 03:01:58 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
In a message dated 1998-09-10 02:05:57 Eastern Daylight Time,
jruhlconob@sprynet.com writes:
> Quoting from the Player's Guide to Alphatia:
> ". . .A person of Aristocrat rank or higher may legally kill any slave,
> for any reason or none; there is no investigation or censure. But he must
> compensate the owner the money-value listed for the slave. . . .The slave's
> life is usually one of heartbreaking, backbreaing labor from youth until
> death; few are permited to learn to read; few ever hold a coin in their
> lives; runaways are executed, by Imperial law."
Some things that are missing from that description that would be present
in Melnibone are the random sacrifices, mutilations, and tortures that the
slaves of the Melniboneans were subject to. On the other hand, the
Melniboneans did keep their slaves well drugged so that they usually
didn't notice these things.
Another difference is that Melniboneans were completely lacking in empathy
or sensitivity -- the normal squeamishness that would restrain most Alphatians
(who are, after all, human) from committing the most sickening atrocities was
almost completely absent in Melniboneans.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:12:53 -0500
From: John Normand <johnfoxx@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - [MYSTARA]-ONLINE GAME
I will be running an online game of MYSTARA in about a week anyone wanting more
info visit my webpage at: www.geocities.com/bourbonstreet/bayou/5798
or e-mail me at johnfoxx@bellsouth.net or icq at:7254288.
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 04:24:03 -0700
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <vanquer@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>"killing those spells" was easy as they were low level spells. these are
the
>"weakest" spells. that mage would be fighting four crewmen and their
>mount...
Agreed, I was not in at the beginning of the thread and posted them as
just
some immediate thoughts rather than a battle plan. Not really considering
the tactical side as I would if actually running/playing the scenario.
>> The area that the tank is in could be scryed with minimal difficulty
>> and no risk to the Mage via a mess of potential spells.
>> Finding out the major weakness of a tank (blind-spots) should not
>> be too difficult in this fashion either.>>
>scrying would help a mage. but i have to wonder if a mage would be able to
>analyze the scryed info. there's not alot of mystara stuff he could relate
it
>to. what would a mage relate the particulars of a M1 to? imc i'd allow the
>scrying but add that the mage need time to research the particulars and
work
>out an interpretation of them. sucess or failure depends on the mage's
>conclusions. of course to test them would require the mage to initiate a
spell
>melee.
Generally, I'd consider the divinition spells to tell the mage things
kind of in
his own terms rather than an outright view of "reality". Kind of like
prophecies
in the bible.
There are many things in there that talk about high technology and the
future,
but they received their visions in tems that they could understand...
Locusts with
stings on the tails, breastplates upon their chests that could not be
penetrated.
That type of thing. Hence, in divining weaknesses- he'd undoubtedly be
told
that the monster cannot see in these areas...
The actual scrying for positional teleporting would be done well through
a small
creature with clairvoyance, a wizard-eye spell, or a crystal ball and would
simply
allow the area to be seen to teleport in next to the tank- no technical
information
would be needed, and little to none would probably be provided.
>> The Mage's basic benefits are a generally much higher intelligence,
>> and the ability to get much better "Reconnaissance" accomplished
>> much quicker.
>i don't know. the modern armies require the soldiers to be fairly
intelligent.
>reading and writing are a must. using and comprehending the high tech
weapons
>should be considered intelligence based skills. you could even say some
>aspects with computers qualify as knowing another language.
Intelligence, IIRC, was originally set up in the D&D system based on one
of the
IQ tests that exist IRL. The particular IQ. test puts the average person at
a 90-120
IQ (IE. 9-12 Intelligence), and genius level at a 160+ IQ (16 Int).
The average person on earth today tends to run a 9-12 Int. and in that
light the
average Mage in D&D runs a 13+ making him more intelligent. Also, how many
PC mages have you seen running around with a 13 Int.?
Remember that a 13 Int. Mage speaks 3 Languages proficiently which is
better
than most people on earth have accomplished. He is also literate.
Comprehending
the "high tech" weapons would indeed be Int. based, but would be a matter of
training as well (which is separate from Int. in itself).
Take a ballista for example. A mage has no skill whatsoever with it- not
because
of Int. but because of training. A Mage who trains with a ballista
(presuming that the
DM would allow this :-) would hit as well with it as he would his own staff.
Also, have you considered on the "reading and writing" part the fact
that Mages
must be literate? How else do they write and study their spellbooks? I think
you're
mixing intelligence as a stat up with training as proficiencies.
Computer languages would undoubtedly be added languages although once
the
basis is down for 1 Cmp. Lng. the others are very simple to learn (for the
most part
anyway.)
Problem is that the average person using a computer is not a programmer
and
seldom understands the language that the program he uses is written in.
Thus, just
because I run (for example) Win98 does not mean that I have a Language,
though
it probably does mean that I have computers as a proficiency.
>> Round-1
>> Teleport should not be a problem for getting the Mage into a blind-
>> spot around the tank (or at least under cover within 200-300 yards).
>> As the Crew is not even aware of the arrival of our Mage they have
>> no appreciable actions.
>[snip]
>i assume this to be a "first contact" scenario between tankers and mage.
blind
>spots are a given in a solitary tank encounter. blind spots are negated
with a
>standard tank platoon with real time recon being fed to the tank crews. but
>for the sake of the scenario we'll say for whatever reasons this tank is
>operating well ahead of its fellows.
Given the scenario being "A Mage Against a Tank", I'd presume this to be
the
case, although a Tank Platoon against a Mage Platoon would allow the same
benefits of teamwork to the mages that the tanks have--- and would become a
very complex scenario.
As far as the infantry providing "real time" reconnaissance, there is
the problem
that infantry can be annihilated so easily from such great distances that
they are
not even a real part of the equation.
>okay this round based scenario would work. using higher level spells is the
>way to go. i will say this though, if i was the tech military commander i'd
>accept the loss of a tank if it meant a high level mage had a good chance
of
>being killed. plus losing one tank is a fair price to gain the recon on
what
>the natives can do with magic.
Agreed, however, when the lone tank out front was come upon by the
military
personnel behind it... They see the mid-section gutted by something that
powdered
the metal, and fried the occupants.
The Recon undoubtedly says that "yes a native can approach the tanks,
and
destroy them". And, in the scenario provided, my first order was to make
sure that
the Wizard had a high chance of personal survival regarding the situation.
In a true invasion scenario, however, I'd leave most of the big stuff
(like tanks)
alone and concentrate on the mass destruction of the infantry through things
like the
Blink spell, Death Fogs, and Magic Missile.
Troops would be harassed on a continual basis by Mages with fairly weak
spells
and magical traps would abound. Not to mention the potential uses of Magic
Items-
which were brought into almost none of the scenarios.
The idea would be to destroy the tank's tactical support in such a way
that larger
creatures, and time, could wear the behemoth down. Eventually allowing the
Mage to
come up with a good counter-attack plan. (Not to mention running out of
fuel- but I
doubt that that would be part of the Mage's plans).
Later.
Jesse.
vanquer@softhome.net
ICQ. 8004143
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #623
********************************
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mystara-digest Monday, September 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 624
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
[MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 04:48:00 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> IMO, as far as the general "MagiGenetic" topography of Mystara as a
whole,
>I would suspect that it is basically uniform throughout Mystara outside
>Alphatia and the "hot spot" of Glantri. The major difference is that
other
>realms may not cultivate it as efficiently: I.E. no "testing" for it,
mages
>may be shunned in a culture (I.E. Ethengar), so few potential mages
>actually become mages, or it could be that the availability of
appropriate
>vocational education is lacking. IMO, outside special areas where
"testing"
>for the "trait" is common, it is these factors (cultural ones) that
will be
>more important in determining how many mages a society has; the
"genetic"
>factor forms an upper limit, though.
> Doesn't really answer your full question, I know, but otoh, any chart
of
>%s that I'd make would be nothing more than my own personal guestimate,
and folks have widely different opinions on how common mages, and magic
in general, should be in their own campaigns, so I'll leave that undone
for now.
I've found a couple of problems trying to track this gene: first of
all (as you mentioned above), I guess we can assume that certain
races/ethnic groups have this gene more than others: dwarves don't have,
elves do, and within humanity, Alphatians (I imagine Old Alphas more so
than Cyprians) are more likely to have it than, say, Atruaghini (can't
recall too many mages there, and they were awed by the Alphatians). Of
course, that rasises the question of nature vs. nuture: are there no
Atruaghini mages because they don't have the genes, or because there
isn't anyone to train them?
Second, given that one racial/ethnic group is more likely to have
the gene, tracking the gene is very difficult, because TSR (and the MML)
seems to enjoy creating migrations that don't make any sense at all; I
just can't see how some groups get where they are en masse from where
they started. To compound this, Mystara regularly receives a shipment of
the multiverse's refugees. Whether it's Federites, Alphatians, French,
Scotts, Diaboli, or Bug Priests, I mean Emerondians, any given species
has or had a colony of some sort on Mystara. Old Alphas would contribute
the gene, while Federites would soak it up.
It seems likely to me that this gene is regressive, as that would
explain Alphatia's decline over the millenia as they interbred with the
less maigcally inclined. Anyone have other ideas?
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 04:53:29 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>Another difference is that Melniboneans were completely lacking in
empathy or sensitivity -- the normal squeamishness that would restrain
most Alphatians (who are, after all, human) from committing the most
sickening atrocities was almost completely absent in Melniboneans.
I've always found the high level Alphatian aristocracy to exhibit
little or no empathy with anything, especially the so-called "pure"
Alphatians. The mages that rule the nation are only concerned with the
acquisition of power, and ultimately Immortality. After all, this is
nation that produced both Alphaks and Blackheart.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 04:54:33 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Yes, but it would take a great degree of unity of purpose for the
current
>Mages (and past ones over 2 millenia) to successfuly styme reasurch.
And
>Alphatian mages aren't known for their essential unity of goals. . .
I feel that it would take far more unity to arrest the decline than
maintain the status quo.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 04:59:38 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian
>A well-written response with many good points, Adam. One question: a
>Hulean invasion (assumed successful) would bring ia very different
>culture (Turkish/Ottoman influence) into play here; do you really see
it
>being ultimately compatable, or would the incompatbility lead to the
>re-establishment of the Darokinian state (or a collection of
>city-states)?
I'm afraid I'm not Adam either... no wait! I am!
Hule's culture is canonically described as an amalagam of the
hundreds of disperse societies that have been enlightened, as was the
historical Ottoman and Arabic empires. After a bad start that involved a
lot of deaths, they finally hit upon a unique system of colonization:
cultural apathy! Who cares is they're not Muslim? So long as they pay
their taxes and fight in our wars, live and let live. Now, the Master is
unlikely to be as permissive religiously, but I'm sure Darokin (which is
pretty hetreogenous already) would fit in just fine.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:02:07 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
> For centuries, Darokin has been relying on Minrothad taders to
move
Hmmm, "taders". Perhaps these are the little rat-like beasts that
chase the "steems" on their wheels.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:18:20 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Who else do you think would be gaining in magical knowledge as Alphatia
declines (NOT Glantri)? Are you working post-WotI?--if so, have you
established a magical school anywhere besides Karameikos?
I know that this will sound odd, but I had a dream, and in it, I
saw a Five Shires where Hin Masters were using the Blackflame to become
magic genetic engineers and were creating all sorts of monsters to use
as beasts of burden and large war engines. They started shaving their
heads and getting these ornate and abstract tattoos that they could use
to control and cast spells through their creatures. I haven't come up
with any rules or even more than a vague idea, but it sounds
interesting. I think I was influenced by Rifts, but I don't have the
Atlantis supplement, so I don't know anything about tattoo magic. What's
really odd is that I hate the Shires; I don't know what anyone sees in
ratlings.
I've got a post-WoTI campaign going, and yes, they are a few other
schools. The first one is found in scenic Oenkmar. Bargle has gotten
together with a few ogre mage friends of his and hit upon a brillant
idea: for millenia, goblinoids have been stuck with wokani and shamans.
Bargle's school teaches them magic as the "science" that humans and
elves know it to be, without the ritual superstition. This school is
turning out wizards at an alarming rate: the students (orcs, primarily)
are already magic users, they just need to learn how to read.:) Of
course, being Bargle, he'll take anyone with cash.
I have another school in Hule. After the invasion of Sind, the
Master got to see what the KW has really been up to in magic, and needs
to close the gap. To this end, he has started a school to train Hulean
mages, and attract skilled students from abroad. The foreign students
are under heavy monitoring, but are actual students at the school. The
Master wants to drain the best minds from the KW, and has even offered
scholarships to worthy would-be master mages to obtain a high caliber
school.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:39:51 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
>
> Now that I've been flamed for asking about something I was interested
> in, I think I'll re-post the question in different words (to all of you
> who tried to answer me already, thank you:).
>
> When I ask "how do I manifest innate magical ability in game terms," I
> do not mean "how do I assume PCs have this ability?" I have been playing
> for many years as well; I am not stupid.
Listen, I think everyone here knows you are quite intelligent. Your
comments are always thoughtful and creative and your questions have a
spark of imagination in them. When someone is constantly flaming
others, he picks up a reputation that rather tarnishes his online image
and he begins to pick up "permanent grain of salt". Please don't be
upset. Your question was completely valid.
I will add that Jamuga's answer was valid as well. The way he put his
answer was a tad obnoxious, but it was a good point about "one way of
approaching the genetic trait idea."
Further, I would point out that this is a detail that sets Mystara apart
from other worlds. Reading the original Krynn books it is obvious that
the old "memorize and cast anyone can learn" approach is used here. The
Forgotten Realms have a slightly different system described in their
novels, where the mages are often born with talent or "feel the magic".
And Mystara is different still as one is either born with the talent or
not, but will likely not pick up the power through experimentation.
Kind of a vague point here...but the main thing is that each campaign
has relatively different views on magic and yet none of them have a
different rules system. Make of it what you will.
>
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
I honestly hadn't realized that this is what you were asking. However,
in my own campaign we use a different rules system, which has 12 primary
stats instead of 6. One of these stats is "Talent" which has to be at
least 10 in order to be able to cast spells.
As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for
it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort
of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain
age? In a certain place?
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:39:51 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
>
> Now that I've been flamed for asking about something I was interested
> in, I think I'll re-post the question in different words (to all of you
> who tried to answer me already, thank you:).
>
> When I ask "how do I manifest innate magical ability in game terms," I
> do not mean "how do I assume PCs have this ability?" I have been playing
> for many years as well; I am not stupid.
Listen, I think everyone here knows you are quite intelligent. Your
comments are always thoughtful and creative and your questions have a
spark of imagination in them. When someone is constantly flaming
others, he picks up a reputation that rather tarnishes his online image
and he begins to pick up "permanent grain of salt". Please don't be
upset. Your question was completely valid.
I will add that Jamuga's answer was valid as well. The way he put his
answer was a tad obnoxious, but it was a good point about "one way of
approaching the genetic trait idea."
Further, I would point out that this is a detail that sets Mystara apart
from other worlds. Reading the original Krynn books it is obvious that
the old "memorize and cast anyone can learn" approach is used here. The
Forgotten Realms have a slightly different system described in their
novels, where the mages are often born with talent or "feel the magic".
And Mystara is different still as one is either born with the talent or
not, but will likely not pick up the power through experimentation.
Kind of a vague point here...but the main thing is that each campaign
has relatively different views on magic and yet none of them have a
different rules system. Make of it what you will.
>
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
I honestly hadn't realized that this is what you were asking. However,
in my own campaign we use a different rules system, which has 12 primary
stats instead of 6. One of these stats is "Talent" which has to be at
least 10 in order to be able to cast spells.
As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for
it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort
of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain
age? In a certain place?
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:45:29 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Now, regarding Wish, I would think that a Wish wouldn't work, otherwise
> high muckety mucks in Alphatia wouldn't have Ericall/Tredorian type
> problems, because they could "fix" it. Perhaps there is something akin to
> our "biogenetic reasurch" that is going on in Alphatia (especially), but
> more along the lines of "biomagical reasurch" to solve the "problem".
That is a good point. Surely Eriadna, as upset as she was with
Ericall's "situation", would have done everything she could to instill
magic in both him and his father (whom she preferred above all other
lovers but had to cast aside).
So perhaps the problem is a very complex genetic one which Mystarans
cannot picture, and therefore cannot solve through the relatively simple
application of a wish. To properly word the wish, they would have to
have a good understanding of genetics and how the specific genetic trait
that grants magic works.
I like that.
So while they can test for it, they cannot understand the way the
genetic code works, or even understand genetic code to begin with!
So is Mystaran magic internal or external? Does a Mystaran mage reach
within himself or without?
Or is it different if one travels from the Known World to Alphatia?
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:45:29 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Now, regarding Wish, I would think that a Wish wouldn't work, otherwise
> high muckety mucks in Alphatia wouldn't have Ericall/Tredorian type
> problems, because they could "fix" it. Perhaps there is something akin to
> our "biogenetic reasurch" that is going on in Alphatia (especially), but
> more along the lines of "biomagical reasurch" to solve the "problem".
That is a good point. Surely Eriadna, as upset as she was with
Ericall's "situation", would have done everything she could to instill
magic in both him and his father (whom she preferred above all other
lovers but had to cast aside).
So perhaps the problem is a very complex genetic one which Mystarans
cannot picture, and therefore cannot solve through the relatively simple
application of a wish. To properly word the wish, they would have to
have a good understanding of genetics and how the specific genetic trait
that grants magic works.
I like that.
So while they can test for it, they cannot understand the way the
genetic code works, or even understand genetic code to begin with!
So is Mystaran magic internal or external? Does a Mystaran mage reach
within himself or without?
Or is it different if one travels from the Known World to Alphatia?
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:48:46 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
I mentioned before how the system we use has 12 stats instead of 6. The
one for priests and paladins is "Zeal". The higher the zeal the more
power you are granted by your diety. But here's the kicker: Zeal
represents the amount of attention your diety gives you. It does not
represent anything innate.
I just thought this was an interesting way to word it.
So how do we want to have magic work for priests? Do Immortals directly
grant powers? Do they sort of give a "one time license" to do miracles
as long as no particularly bad sins are done?
Is clerical magic internal or external?
Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
>
> Great ideas, James, (and thanks for the moral support, too:)...I think
> you're absolutely right about the clerical spells, BTW--if everyone who
> was a true believer automatically received the Immortal's grace, then
> everyone would be a cleric; after all, why be a member of the laity
> when, for the same amount of devotion (plus some extra prayer time, of
> course), you could have spells and granted powers...
>
> Jenn
>
> valerya@hotmail.com
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:51:25 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
If you can do that, I really AM impressed!
SteelAngel wrote:
>
> On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
>
> > But size matters not, as an Imperial Star Destroyer is only 1600m long, and
> > can "reduce a civilised world to slag or take on a fleet of lesser
> > veseels"... :)
>
> <off topic>
> Wow.. That doesn't exactly explain why I can easily take one out with a
> nice happy A-Wing in XvT!
> </off topic>
>
> Ethan
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:55:53 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
It was a good argument indeed. I might rule on it this way, and let me
know what you think...perhaps a wish can change ones race, but not
class. That is, one can wish to be an elf (then the wish takes care of
all the genetic stuff itself) but one cannot wish to suddenly gain the
genetic trait and knowledge, and skill...
Hmm. I dunno. This is a tough one.
Perhaps such a wish would change everything about a person. Perhaps
this is why an adventurer might choose to go from wizard to fighter, but
a noble of Alphatia would not wish to lose his face along with...
Geez, that isn't much of an explanation either...
James Ruhland wrote:
>
>
> > The only difficult point would be a social and political one: in
> Alphatia,
> > being a magic.using individual would be seen as being "chosen" for rule,
> > thanks to the Immortals, Fate or whatever. Forcing that change by freely
> > giving the gift (nothing too difficult with 1000 36th level mages around)
> > would disrupt a traditional order of millennia, even if it is to an
> > Empress´ beloved son. <sniped>
> >
> A good argument, however with IMO a problem: Alphatian history/tradition
> can record a time when every Alphatian was a spellcaster, and in fact the
> Alphatians are troubled by the decline in the proportion of the population
> capable of casting spells.
> IMO, though, a good argument on your part because a Wish, as described in
> the D&D rules, can change a character from human to meta-human and vice
> versa, thus changing the class (and perhaps making the person into a
> spellcaster). If this can be done, then one would think a Wish could change
> something as "small" as the trait for spellcasting.
> I think it is unlikely that the Alphatian spellcasters, the masters of the
> world in their own minds, would restrict themselves in the use of spells on
> their children with regard to attempting to infuse magical talent into them
> (Alphatian spellcasters respect few if any restrictions on their freedom to
> do as they please), but you do raise a good question: if a Wish can change
> these other characteristics (race etc), then why can't it be used to make
> someone capable of spellcasting?
> I admit I have no answer to the question at this time. Time to ponder, I
> guess. . . .
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:55:53 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
It was a good argument indeed. I might rule on it this way, and let me
know what you think...perhaps a wish can change ones race, but not
class. That is, one can wish to be an elf (then the wish takes care of
all the genetic stuff itself) but one cannot wish to suddenly gain the
genetic trait and knowledge, and skill...
Hmm. I dunno. This is a tough one.
Perhaps such a wish would change everything about a person. Perhaps
this is why an adventurer might choose to go from wizard to fighter, but
a noble of Alphatia would not wish to lose his face along with...
Geez, that isn't much of an explanation either...
James Ruhland wrote:
>
>
> > The only difficult point would be a social and political one: in
> Alphatia,
> > being a magic.using individual would be seen as being "chosen" for rule,
> > thanks to the Immortals, Fate or whatever. Forcing that change by freely
> > giving the gift (nothing too difficult with 1000 36th level mages around)
> > would disrupt a traditional order of millennia, even if it is to an
> > Empress´ beloved son. <sniped>
> >
> A good argument, however with IMO a problem: Alphatian history/tradition
> can record a time when every Alphatian was a spellcaster, and in fact the
> Alphatians are troubled by the decline in the proportion of the population
> capable of casting spells.
> IMO, though, a good argument on your part because a Wish, as described in
> the D&D rules, can change a character from human to meta-human and vice
> versa, thus changing the class (and perhaps making the person into a
> spellcaster). If this can be done, then one would think a Wish could change
> something as "small" as the trait for spellcasting.
> I think it is unlikely that the Alphatian spellcasters, the masters of the
> world in their own minds, would restrict themselves in the use of spells on
> their children with regard to attempting to infuse magical talent into them
> (Alphatian spellcasters respect few if any restrictions on their freedom to
> do as they please), but you do raise a good question: if a Wish can change
> these other characteristics (race etc), then why can't it be used to make
> someone capable of spellcasting?
> I admit I have no answer to the question at this time. Time to ponder, I
> guess. . . .
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 06:01:34 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
>The BEST Darokin-Minrothad collapse scenario as yet (I bow in humble
>defeat...:-)...Although I must admit that I saw the Hule thing coming!
Thanks! Yes, Hule is an oldie but a goodie.
I've thought some more about the collapse:
In the north, the remnants of the army go native, and adopt the
customs of their goblinoid allies; they find the savage, yet simple
lifestyle of the average orc appealing. Banding together to worship
Alphaks, the newly declared state of Tortuga (see M1), slides into the
deepest abyss of evil. Human(oid) sacrifice, cannibalism, torture, and
other unspeakable acts are committed in the name of the great Alphaks.
Alphaks, for his part, may be a tad rash at times, but even he
recognizes that this is a good thing, and so sends as much support as he
can. Fiends and undead begin to arrive in greater numbers, joined by
renegade shadow elves, and the land takes on a sick hue. The slave trade
is revived, and forced labour is used to construct the monstrous Temple
of Alphaks. Mages from around the world who feel "oppressed" (read: are
forced to abide by human rights in their research) are invited to
conduct the most hideous rites.
In the east, the populace has become estatic over Bozdogan and the
peace the Master brings. Converisons are conducted en masse, and scores
of missionaries go forth to spread the word of the Holy Deception. Parts
of Karameikos, Ierendi, Minrothad, and the Shires begin to "see the
light," putting those leaders at a loss at how to deal with it.
Minrothadi especially find the message soothing, given what the Master
has done to quell the unrest in Darokin, and the Master promises peace
(which he can; Sassakras would be only too willing to leave the kna and
shark-kin hanging in exchange for something better, which Loki can
certainly offer).
Hule missionaries entering Ylarum are lynched by the public for
blasphemy, angering the Master to no mean end. He demands compensation,
at which the Emirates laugh (they feel that there is no way Hule can
roll over the countries in between). Enraged, the Master moves his
troops forward, to the west, intending a blitzkrieg, and promising to
reach Ylarum in a month, and Bozdogan help whoever gets in his way.
The city-states in western Darokin are concerned, but cannot form a
stable political unit beyond sharing troops. Each city demand s that it
lead the union, resulting in wasteful bickering. All seems lost when
Darokin finds aid in the least likely places.
Aengmor, filled with xenophobic and paranoid elves, dislikes having
to be to close to the Darokinians, but with its newly acquired land,
feels that it would be too tempting a target for the Master to give up,
and Rafiel wants to take no chances. While Aengmor will not send troops
to aid western Darokin (WD), high-level mages and shamans perform
commando missions, resulting in the destruction of important supply
lines. The Master is forced to remain in eastern Darokin (ED), and has
to content himself with cursing Ylarum from afar; sadly (for him),
unlike last time, nothing happens.
Deep in the heart of Ethengar, the Khan has been watching events
for some time. The collapse of the two largest economies has sent
shockwaves across Mystara (again, if anyone has any ideas for other
countries (Heldann, Glantri, Wendar, et c.), feel free), and hardliners
within the Horde feel that now is a ripe time for plundering and other
such Horde-ish stuff. The Mighty Khan just needs an excuse...
Which Hule hands him. Bozdogan's clerics have been inciting the
Hulean people with invective against Ylarum and al-Kalim. Protesters
form outside the Ylari embassy in Sind, forcing the ambassador to flee.
Unfortuantely, an emissary from the Golden Horde chose that moment to
pay a call. Not really knowing the difference, or caring, the frenzied
mob rips the poor Ethegarian to pieces. And we all know how the Horde
feels about that...
Of course, there is the difficulty of getting the Ethengarians to
Darokin. Surrounded by mountains, the horse-bound Horde will have a
difficult time invading. A break comes: Tortuga too has been concerned
about the Master in ED, for they are very close indeed. Normally,
Alphaks wouldn't care, assuming that one of his rants will solve the
problem and make everything better. Thanatos, Alphaks' patron, sees
great potential in Tortuga, however, and becomes unusually friendly with
Alphaks, offering him (useful) advice and the loan of a few artifacts.
Dense Alphaks doesn't see anything in this, and is lulled over to
Thanatos' suggestion: keep Tortuga alive at all cost. Well, the enemy of
my enemy...
Tortuga, through its contacts in the Broken Lands and other
goblinoid-hel territory, offers Ethengar safe passage to ED so that the
Horde may "avenge the gross injustice those nasty Alphat...er, Huleans
have performed upon your most noble, powerful, and worthy self." (It was
written by orc-wannabes under the direction of Alphaks.) At first
thinking it to be a trap, the Khan is forced to take the offer by the
hardliners, who call for either an invasion or his ouster.
So that's where this epistle leaves off; we've got the Horde up
against the Master, duking it out ED, while a demon controlled realm to
north lies ripe for adventure. Any comments?
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:08:25 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
There is that, in addition to the mineral in Alphatia's soil which
inhibits magic. Getting that stuff ingested or breathed on a constant
basis is likely to cause some problems. I like the thought of
Alphatia's growth being retarded by the very land they are living
on...if only they had all moved to Norwold!
> It seems likely to me that this gene is regressive, as that would
> explain Alphatia's decline over the millenia as they interbred with the
> less maigcally inclined. Anyone have other ideas?
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:27:17 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
IIrc wasn`t this one supposed to be in sphere of matter? If so how does
his manufacture of the `Well of Souls` an item which destroys sentient
matter be a good thing for the sphere? Is this in fact his opening move
in a shift to Entropy? <;-P
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:31:32 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>An absolutely useless argument as the attacking mage probably would
cast
>his spells from the backseat of a Tomcat or a Tornado.
>
Yah Hoo ! Top Ballista. Now there was a sourcebook that was so nutty it
actually made sense
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:35:57 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>That is a good point. Surely Eriadna, as upset as she was with
>Ericall's "situation", would have done everything she could to instill
>magic in both him and his father (whom she preferred above all other
>lovers but had to cast aside).
I always got the impression that Ericall liked being a fighter. He
fancied himself a fantastic sword-swinging adventurer, and as he decided
to be king of Norworld, I imagine he wouldn't want to be involved in the
necessary courtly intiques that magic ability in Alphatia brings.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:36:06 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
>To: <mystara-l@MPGN.COM>
>Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:05:03 -0500
>Reply-To: mystara-l@MPGN.COM
>
>
>> >
>> In that case don`t go near Glantri with them having that teleport
magic
>> spell. Imagine a fireball inside the tank. Can we all say brewed up?
>> <;-P
>>
>With the proviso that the Teleporting mage gets to roll on the "never
seen"
>(AD&D) or "casual knowlege" (D&D) table for the result. Then he casts
the
>Fireball inside the tank, roasting himself in the process. Nice. Reall
>bright move. 8-)~
>
Unless It happens to be within LoS in which case it`s a much easier
task. anyway this being Glantri someones already come up for it as the
aiming sight for there staff of magi. thing probably looks like a LAW in
appearance
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #624
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mystara-digest Monday, September 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 625
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian"citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:39:52 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>There is that, in addition to the mineral in Alphatia's soil which
>inhibits magic. Getting that stuff ingested or breathed on a constant
>basis is likely to cause some problems. I like the thought of
>Alphatia's growth being retarded by the very land they are living
>on...if only they had all moved to Norwold!
How about a very insiduos Immortal curse? Look at all of the
civilizations in the past that got really advanced with magic and then
caused a lot of trouble: Carnivex, Blackmoor (technomancy true, but
magic was important for that to occur), and Nithia. Once a civilization
gets to a certain level magically, the Immortals subtily start to reduce
the number of mages, until they decline to a more manageable state.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:46:58 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>armor. casting a spell into the inside of a tank is not possible imo.
imc i
>wouldn't allow a mage to attack the interior of a tower or galleon from
the
>outside. imo that's dirty pool.
>
Why not? You`re allowing hi-tech to have punch through munitions so how
come magic has more restraint? Anyway in a war of this magnitude dirty
pool is what the losers usewd not the winners remember it`s the
winnerswho write the histories of how it `really` happened. BTW whilst
this is fun isn`t it time we agreed that Top of range from bothmagic and
tech cause much more collateral damage than actual harm to opposition.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:52:20 PDT
From: "paul dooley" <ezaqwazy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>i won't oppose that assessment. that's all true for the NoS under
glantri
>city. however, the Shadow Elf NoS was the one i was referring to. that
model
>is untouched and unalterred by immortals.
>
Hold on this is a design given by an immortal to his highest ranking
proxies on the planet and you say that it`s untouched by an immortal.
That`s a crock! Basically this is a case of an immortal going right up
to the line about direct action on the prime, nothing more.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:16:02 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - AlphMelnebone
>
> Some things that are missing from that description that would be present
> in Melnibone are the random sacrifices, mutilations, and tortures that
the
> slaves of the Melniboneans were subject to. On the other hand, the
> Melniboneans did keep their slaves well drugged so that they usually
> didn't notice these things.
>
Except that the Gaz. doesn't describe this stuff because of two reasons:
1) it doesn't matter under Alphatian law what Alphatian overlords do to
their slaves. They can do whatever they want (subject them to
experimentation, torture, whatever). The law is agnostic on that score; the
slave of an Alphatian has no protections whatsoever.
2) TSR, especially in that era, didn't get into that level of grewsome
detail, even with regard to evil villians (which all of Alphatia is not).
They left that kind of thing up to folks imagination. Given that these
products were intended for ages 12 and up. . . .
> Another difference is that Melniboneans were completely lacking in
empathy
> or sensitivity -- the normal squeamishness that would restrain most
Alphatians
> (who are, after all, human) from committing the most sickening atrocities
>
Humans are capable of commiting the most horrible atrocities on each other,
and as this MML is intended for all age groups, I won't go into detail of
what humans have done to other humans and still considered themselves to be
fine people.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:32:56 PDT
From: "GUIDAULT Marc-Antoine" <chasnans@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:39:52 PDT
> How about a very insiduos Immortal curse? Look at all of the
>civilizations in the past that got really advanced with magic and then
>caused a lot of trouble: Carnivex, Blackmoor (technomancy true, but
>magic was important for that to occur), and Nithia. Once a civilization
>gets to a certain level magically, the Immortals subtily start to
reduce
>the number of mages, until they decline to a more manageable state.
You think it manageable state ? I'd say they utterly destroy the
civilisation : Is there still anything from the Nithians, Blackmoor
peaple? Perhaps Alphayians are lucky after all ;o)
Marcus
Marc-Antoine GUIDAULT
à mag@mel.teamlog.fr
ou chasnans@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/7837
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:39:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Francis Larivière <larf01@gel.usherb.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> > I know that this will sound odd, but I had a dream, and in it, I
> saw a Five Shires where Hin Masters were using the Blackflame to become
> magic genetic engineers and were creating all sorts of monsters to use
> as beasts of burden and large war engines. They started shaving their
> heads and getting these ornate and abstract tattoos that they could use
> to control and cast spells through their creatures.
It remind me of the Athasian Haflings (from the Dark Sun setting) and
there life shaping hability. It could be use as a source of inspiration.
Just a thought.
Francis
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:20:49 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
>
> Hmmm, "taders". Perhaps these are the little rat-like beasts that
> chase the "steems" on their wheels.
>
Drat! that reminds me; I still have to detail "steems" 8-)~
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:30:37 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for
> it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort
> of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain
> age? In a certain place?
>
Some folks are working on "Alphatian Gazeteers": I wonder if they've
adressed this question. If so, they might have good answers.
Here's my "seat of the pants" one based on the general answer I gave
before:
All Alphatian cities and most Alphatian towns have a sort of
"supdepartment of evaluation" (within a notional "department of magical
education" where the lucky few go once the trait is discovered).
Depending upon how formalized/widespread you think education is made
available within Alphatia, the testing might be conducted there: testers go
out to schools, including villiage schools, and at a given age (say, 6, if
we assume Alphatian children enter school at 6), they all recieve a battery
of tests looking for the trait. If in your campaign this kind of education
system isn't widespread, well IMO every villiage and town would have a
focal point (temple, market, whatever), and the children would be gathered
there for testing. A kind of "noble lie" (c.f. plato) would be set up so
that even the slaves thought that this was a wonderful practice.
If discovered, the children would then go out from their families to
magical academies at, say, age 7. Now, we might think that this particular
practice is mean, but magical training takes a long time, and don't
remember that young noblemen became pages at age 7, went from their own
family to that of a neighboring nobleman to start to learn how to be
knights; this is little different from that, IMO.
Thus, even the children of the servile wogs and slaves who manifest the
"trait" will be schooled in magic, and indoctrinated. . .er, educated. .
.in the social customs of the Alphatian aristocracy and the proud and noble
history of Alphatia (c.f. Plato's Republic on the education of the young.)
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:35:38 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> So is Mystaran magic internal or external? Does a Mystaran mage reach
> within himself or without?
>
I've always in general prefered mage magic to be "internal" while priestly
magic is "external", but it is actually probably some combination of both:
the "trait" allows you to focus magical power, but magical power in general
infuses everything in Mystara; thus the NoS can drain the planet of magic,
without nessissarily interfiering with the genetic trait.
Note also that as the NoS works its villiany, fewer and fewer people are
able to become mages: only the most intelligent, and probably only the
folks who have the strongest "genetic markers" for the trait: thus it is a
combination of extreme dedication to overcome the increasing difficulties,
and an extremely strong "predisposition" to manifest it. Mages become rare
and wonderous "Merlin" types in an increasingly "mundane" world.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:30:37 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for
> it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort
> of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain
> age? In a certain place?
>
Some folks are working on "Alphatian Gazeteers": I wonder if they've
adressed this question. If so, they might have good answers.
Here's my "seat of the pants" one based on the general answer I gave
before:
All Alphatian cities and most Alphatian towns have a sort of
"supdepartment of evaluation" (within a notional "department of magical
education" where the lucky few go once the trait is discovered).
Depending upon how formalized/widespread you think education is made
available within Alphatia, the testing might be conducted there: testers go
out to schools, including villiage schools, and at a given age (say, 6, if
we assume Alphatian children enter school at 6), they all recieve a battery
of tests looking for the trait. If in your campaign this kind of education
system isn't widespread, well IMO every villiage and town would have a
focal point (temple, market, whatever), and the children would be gathered
there for testing. A kind of "noble lie" (c.f. plato) would be set up so
that even the slaves thought that this was a wonderful practice.
If discovered, the children would then go out from their families to
magical academies at, say, age 7. Now, we might think that this particular
practice is mean, but magical training takes a long time, and don't
remember that young noblemen became pages at age 7, went from their own
family to that of a neighboring nobleman to start to learn how to be
knights; this is little different from that, IMO.
Thus, even the children of the servile wogs and slaves who manifest the
"trait" will be schooled in magic, and indoctrinated. . .er, educated. .
.in the social customs of the Alphatian aristocracy and the proud and noble
history of Alphatia (c.f. Plato's Republic on the education of the young.)
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:35:38 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> So is Mystaran magic internal or external? Does a Mystaran mage reach
> within himself or without?
>
I've always in general prefered mage magic to be "internal" while priestly
magic is "external", but it is actually probably some combination of both:
the "trait" allows you to focus magical power, but magical power in general
infuses everything in Mystara; thus the NoS can drain the planet of magic,
without nessissarily interfiering with the genetic trait.
Note also that as the NoS works its villiany, fewer and fewer people are
able to become mages: only the most intelligent, and probably only the
folks who have the strongest "genetic markers" for the trait: thus it is a
combination of extreme dedication to overcome the increasing difficulties,
and an extremely strong "predisposition" to manifest it. Mages become rare
and wonderous "Merlin" types in an increasingly "mundane" world.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:50:14 EDT
From: CRlPTONITE@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
<< IIrc wasn`t this one supposed to be in sphere of matter? If so how does
his manufacture of the `Well of Souls` an item which destroys sentient
matter be a good thing for the sphere? Is this in fact his opening move
in a shift to Entropy? <;-P >>
Actually Zugzul is one of Energy. Zugzul is a very destructive Immortal and
sometimes seems to act like an Entropic one. There are a couple Immortals of
Energy like Zugzul. Marwdyn is an Energy Immortal with a primary interest in
Necromancy. I don't know much about him. I think he was the one who got
hanged and resurrected while mortal. Maybe Zugzul can be another name for
Marwdyn. Anyone have any info on him?
- --- -- --Criptonite
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:47:17 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> I always got the impression that Ericall liked being a fighter.
>
But Alphatian spellcasters don't care what the preferences of others are;
if they want their children to be mages like mom, then they'd push them
strongly in that direction if they could.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:51:13 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> >
> Hold on this is a design given by an immortal to his highest ranking
> proxies on the planet and you say that it`s untouched by an immortal.
> That`s a crock! Basically this is a case of an immortal going right up
> to the line about direct action on the prime, nothing more.
>
Heh; the Immortals in general are about as faithful in following their "no
direct action" rule as the Federation (of Star Trek fame) is in following
their "Prime Directive", which in practice means hardly faithful at all.
See the stuff Ixion did in the Orcs head, etc.
These guys may keep to the letter of the law (kind of), but they break the
spirit of the injunction all the time, and someone like Rafiel (who wasn't
part of the traditional hierarchy anyhow) would probably follow it even
less stringently, by the time he heard of it.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:56:01 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Temple of the Frog
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Jennifer Favia Guerra wrote:
> Also, what about Ordana? Thanatos (did he have his sirty little fongers
> in something back then...:)?
Ordana was definately around. So was probably Terra? Djaea reached
immortality during the Blackmoor civilizatio IIRC, but not in its early
stages.
Håvard, looking at his flooded inbox.. :)
***
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http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:53:12 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> It remind me of the Athasian Haflings (from the Dark Sun setting) and
> there life shaping hability. It could be use as a source of inspiration.
>
When dealing with Halflings, I take the cuisine choice of the Athasians as
a source of inspiration.
I'm having an old hairfoot for dinner. 8-)
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:06:40 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> Just curious as to why you think we should ignore WotI on the basis of a
> bad future for poor technology?
I dont think we should ignore WotI. (Even though I said so) What I do
think is that if there are some minor details in WotI that ruin some
pretty good ideas we should ignore those parts of WotI. Ie, I dont like
this thing about there being something about mystaras physics that
interferr with high technology and this makes a mess. If we want something
restricting technology, we should at least include a theory that makes
sense and that sounds cool. It should also be based on other mystara
elements and not merely the basis that we dont want tech in our world.
F.ex I think any theory involving the immortals is acceptabe, as is any
theory involving the sky-shield or world shield.
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:14:13 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Francis Larivière wrote:
> Hi, I'm new to this list. I would like to know if anybody has
> information concerning the background of Demogorgone. Were're he come
> from, what he was as a mortal and stuff like that.
> Thanks
Maybe Demo was an imp who managed to steal 13 souls and become a demon and
then later raised to true immortality? Someone should go that way too...
Håvard
***
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"Ah Gandhi! What a Mensch. And he looked good in a robe too!" -Douglas
Wambaugh, Picket Fences.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:30:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations
I agree, James; Hule probably could hold onto that entire region for a
very long time. But do you think that Darokinian culture would
infiltrate Hulean culture to some extent during that period? After all,
it was prolonged ontact with Western cultures that eventually led to
Ataturk's cultural revolution and his people acceptance of it (since
we're in the RW vein:)...Just interested to know whether we should
expect Hule to become a little more interested in trade...:)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:38:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
I like the Hulean magic school idea... I put one in Darokin, personally,
so I guess that could lead to some interesting adventures and battles if
things go down in the future the way the list is talking! :)
What "name-level" master mages do you think are available to run all
these schools, besies Terari/Tylion? (I had Aiklin get sick of being a
Thyatian puppet)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:42:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Daly wrote:
> If you can do that, I really AM impressed!
Wasn't that hard. It was about as tough as destroying the Calamari Cruiser
in Tie Fighter (It was a bonus mission, and you got a Tie Advanced)
All you have to do is blast away the turrets. And the engines. And the
bridge.
And survive..
Ethan
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:44:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
I'm really interested in this twelve-point system. Could you possibly
:-) be so kind as to explain it to me further (or give just a brief
rundown) privately?
Oh, and P.S.: Thank you for the support :) (Gosh, I sound like an old
Bartles and James ad:)..Just showing my age...
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:50:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: SteelAngel <eand@WPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, [iso-8859-1] Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote:
> pretty good ideas we should ignore those parts of WotI. Ie, I dont like
> this thing about there being something about mystaras physics that
> interferr with high technology and this makes a mess. If we want something
- --
> theory involving the sky-shield or world shield.
Woah.. Could it be that the World or Skyshield effects Mystara's Physics?
Ethan
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:50:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
WOW, Nicholas...Comments?...I'm speechless. This is GREAT stuff. Just
wondering--are these events from your own campaign, or are you our next
Mystara novelist??
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:57:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Hi James :-)...I wanted to let you know in case you did't, that you're
sending carbon copies to the list. Of course, if it was on purpose, we
love reading you twice :-)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:59:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Pardon me for being dense, but where do these Immortals appear? They are
VERY interesting.
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:12:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
>
> I dont think we should ignore WotI. (Even though I said so) What I do
> think is that if there are some minor details in WotI that ruin some
> pretty good ideas we should ignore those parts of WotI.
<sniped chunk>
> F.ex I think any theory involving the immortals is acceptabe, as is any
> theory involving the sky-shield or world shield.
>
Ok, I'd agree with all of that myself, actually. Thanks, Håvard.
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:14:58 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian"citystates" and unification with dissimilar nations
> we're in the RW vein:)...Just interested to know whether we should
> expect Hule to become a little more interested in trade...:)
>
What could happen is that the Darokinians retain a descrete "role" within
Hule's mosaic, similar to the "role" that the Romanosini (er, Greeks) held
within the Ottoman domain: the Greeks formed an administrative clique,
because of their long experience and education in such matters while
governing the (Eastern) Roman Empire.
By the same token, the Darokinians would probably become the merchantile
"clique" of the Hulean state.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:17:12 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Hi James :-)...I wanted to let you know in case you did't, that you're
> sending carbon copies to the list.
>
I am? DOH! I'm only recieving one myself.
Hmmmn. . . .wonder how to fix that. Lets see if only one of these arrives.
. .
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:24:34 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
>
> Pardon me for being dense, but where do these Immortals appear? They are
> VERY interesting.
>
Well, Zugzul & the Afridi are in DA 4: Duchy of Ten, a really good module
if you can find it (I'd recomend scavenging up all the DA modules if you
can; they're great fun in and of themselves, and if you have Blackmoor
related stuff in your campaign, they are indispensible).
Now I'm afraid to send for fear of double-spaming everyone. . .
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:35:17 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology: Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery
>charm spells are interesting to ponder. charms can be broken. through
>rationalization. tanker attitudes of unity and teamwork can "pursuade" an
>affcted crewman to snap out of it. the loader, not looking out can simply
pimp
>slap an affected crewman back into reality. the contemporary tank crew lay
out
>is based on teamwork, confidence, and efficiency.
Nice. So charm person is foiled by teamwork?
I dont think so...
>no there just isn't a canon reference key to easily compare magic to tech.
you
>assume that a 120mm HEAT or SABOT round is equivelent to a catapult
>projectile. imo that is ludicrous. velocity and impact characteristics are
the
>two most differing factors. to compare them on a similar level would be
like
>comparing a bow and arrow to an assault rifle.
In terms of type of damage, in xD+D philosophy, they are the same thing. It
is a missile weapon, at the end of the day, not fire, not lightning, not
disintegration, but a missile attack. It is not quasi magical. Think of it
merely as a catapult which inflicts 100hp a hit, instead of 10hp a hit.
However much damage it inflicts, however, at the end of the day certain
spells would provide a defence. It is still a missile weapon!
> <<Chobham armour is likewise irrelevant, as most spells will happily blow
> diamond away, and the damage that spells do is tied to level. So a
> lightning bolt by a 12th level caster will penetrate 6" of Chobham armour
> (as it would 6" of diamond), and a disintegrate means the tank needs a 17
on
> a save vs disintegration or it loses a 10'x10'x10' chunk of itself.>>
>
>chobham is highly resistant to kinetic (SABOT) and heat (HEAT) attacks.
take
>that fireball spell that has been suggested. a fireball would not detonate
>inside. since it would strike the tank's exterior it would detonate on the
>outside. chobham can resist the extreme heat of shaped charge rounds that
burn
>through hardened armour plating. surely it can shrug off a fireball that
has a
>heat factor only effective up to soft metals such as gold and silver.
>a lightning bolt would be more effective but i doubt it would penatrate the
>hull before glancing off as if it had struck a stone wall. disintegrate
would
>work to kill a tank. however, the mage then has to deal with four armed and
>armoured crewmen coming out of the hatches.
>
> <<Besides, the One True Spell versus tech armies has Got to be Death
Spell.
> IRL a force ceases to be an effective fighting force after it has taken
> between 25% and 50% casualties. Death Spell could wipe out whole
companies,
> and just decimate the opposition. And range is a moot point, because a
mage
> has any number of a thousand means of getting within range. And if the
> enemy doesnt have access to magic, a fair number of these are foolproof.>>
>
>spells like the Death Spell are effectively weapons of mass destruction. as
>such, id offer a survival chance based on NBC equipment and gas/chemical
>equipment carried by the infantry. though admitedly this counter applies
more
>to Death Fog.
So now you are saying that an NBC system will protect against a death spell?
uh huh... you will be saying that chobham armour prevents ethereal travel
or teleport spells in a minute. How exactly do you envision this? All an
NBC system is a radiation resistant coat (basically something like lead
plating) and an internal overpressure system.
>given the size of the USMC and the notorious Marine tenacity things could
get
>messy. it should be noted that the USMC is larger and packs more firepower
>than most first world nations' armies. the USMC is effectively a self
>contained army. to take on the USMC with a gang of mid level NPCs/PCs is
>taking on a combined arms tactical force. every marine is a Marine and
>rifleman. cooks, mechanics, and even latrine boys can take up a M-16 and
fight
>with a tenacity near equal to that of a frontline trooper.
:)
> <<(How is the USMC going to stop a mage with Wraithform cast upon himself?
> Basically, they have no means of stopping the guy in their entire
armoury.)
>>>
>
>how is a mage using wraithform going to take out the entire USMC? that mage
>cannot attack the troops so is a moot point. since certain weapons like a
40mm
>grenade launcher or a HEAT round or a Claymore offer comparable affects as
>offensive magical spells i'd allow them to harm the wraithform mage.
you see, thats the difference in attitude. A claymore mine is nonmagical.
How exactly is a volley of ballbearings (essentially what it is) able to
strike an ethereal target, when a normal sword is not? Seems ludicrous to
me...
Cheerz
Rob
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #625
********************************
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mystara-digest Monday, September 14 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 626
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:44:17 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
><<Imagine a Death Fog spell! No tank will make it out of there... Well,
they
> may be if the crew promptly about face and go back the way they came, but
> they arent going to know whats going on...>>
>
>actually being a fog based attack NBC gear for the tank would protect the
>crew. imo a RW equivelant for the Death Fog spell would be nerve gas or
>nuclear fallout.
I was actually thinking of the Death Fog turning the tank into a steaming
pool of acidic mucus, but anyway...
><<Hohoho. Wraithform, or Find Traps. (Or a thief!) And the way to
defeating
>an enemy force is Hearts and Minds. If the marines are too scared to open
>their ammo boxes, because there is some undetectable trap been placed on it
>(well, I suppose engineers would be D+D thieves, with Find Remove Traps)
>then that detracts from the forces fighting ability.>>
>
>the wraithform would work to aid recon purposes. casting find traps would
>alert the peremeter defenses to any "sapper cleric". he/she has to speak to
>cast it. and detecting the traps/defenses does not negate them or allow the
>cleric to know the specifics to disarm them. as for thieves, i'd have to
>penalize them in any attempt at removing any trap. this is alien stuff
which i
>doubt the local theives guild has any experience in dealing with. and imo a
>pair of NV goggles or a NV scope negate the hide in shadows ability. which
>would be sappers would not know about. sentry controlled defenses and
weapons
>would then come into play.
Well, Find Traps has a duration of half an hour, so the cleric could cast it
just before he goes in, rather than cast it in full view of the enemys base
while some Marine sights up a M249.
Presumably the Marine base wouldnt be entirely surrounded by traps, because
a) how are the Marines going to get out?
and
b) if they are spending all this time wiring up their base, they arent
exactly getting on with the war, rather they are hiding behind a heavily
fortified base - something which AirLand 2000 strategy is dead against.
And how about an Unseen Servant wandering through all the traps and setting
them off, while the wraithformed and invisible mage sneaks in the other side
and death spells the camp?
><<For comparison, being hit by a 16-17th century cannon ball does d12 x 5
> damage in AD+D terms :-) (Or so it says in the Mighty Fortress book).>>
>
>i could agree with that in certain situations. what does it give for
>scattershot? there could be a comparison with fragmentation weapons such as
>the claymore and grenade.
5d10 for shrapnel in a line 100' and 5' across at the far end, save vs spell
for half.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:03:59 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
At 23.31 12/09/98 +0200, Jamuga Khan wrote:
>But the sea trade is the domain of Minrothad, while Darokin commits the
>overland trade.
True, but there's also a section of the Minrothad Guilds devoted to
overland trade: the Minrothad Guilds Caravan Corporation. IMO Minrothad
does more overland trade than what Darokin does by sea.
>BTW, besides being rivals what kind of relationship both countries have? Do
>Minrothaddan ships transport Darokinian goods?
Why not?
**************
Fabrizio Paoli
brizio@lunet.it
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4560
**************
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:02:41 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
At 23.59 12/09/98 +0200, Jamuga Khan wrote:
>Er, sorry to correct you, but the Beagle was TWO MILES long. When you see a
>little exploration ship in it, what's the size of a destroyer, a cruiser or
>a dreadnaught then?
Do you really want to know?
>From Star Wars Imperial Sourcebook:
Super Star Destroyer: 8000 meters
Imperial Star Destroyer: 1600 meters
Dreadnaught Cruiser: 600 meters
Strike Cruiser: 450 meters
Carrack Light Cruiser: 350 meters
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:04:29 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> Don't pay any attention to him (advice that I should take myself,
actually.
> . . .)
>
Of course you have not meant me, haven't you?
Otherwise I have to become angry about you...
> IMO, the most "appropriate" for Alphatia might be a combination of the
> above: a battery of "aptitude" tests and a spell or two that may indicate
> (but probably not 100% confirm) magical talent. Could lead to some
> interesting backrounds if, for example, one of the PCs was tested, found
to
> have aptitude for magic, but the testers made an error, he (or she)
failed
> to learn to cast spells because of lacking the "special spark", and thus
> learned a different trade. Could thus have some experience/contacts in
the
> "magical community," might be bitter (or not), etc.
I have to agree to James (yes, believe it!!), but IMO it's not worth the
work to design a test. OTOH anybody might have a really good idea (I
haven't).
> Also, I would rule that clerical spells don't depend upon an inate
genetic
> trait, but rather devotion to the Immortal(s) and recipt of their grace
> (I.E. you may be devote, but if you don't recieve the "call," you won't
be
> a Cleric, but "just" one of the laity).
I again have to agree: To become a cleric a person needs the ability to
develope a really strong faith. This trait is more psychological than the
physic trait for magic-users. One could consider that all children without
the ability to cast magical spells would become cleric, but lacking this
ability too only a "career" as a commoner is possible.
> Now, regarding Wish, I would think that a Wish wouldn't work, otherwise
> high muckety mucks in Alphatia wouldn't have Ericall/Tredorian type
> problems, because they could "fix" it. Perhaps there is something akin to
> our "biogenetic reasurch" that is going on in Alphatia (especially), but
> more along the lines of "biomagical reasurch" to solve the "problem".
I have to agree a third time (Doctor! I fear James has a cardiac
infarction! Can you revive him?) as a Wish is definitely not enough to fix
the problem. OTOH I could imagine that there IS a solution for this
problem: Genetical research for would-be magic-users and a training in
faith from the earliest youth for aspiring clerics.
Sorry, Jennifer, I fear the thread is just leaving your field of
interest...
BTW, there's one possibility that a person could be a cleric even without
the faintest idea of faith. An Immortal could choose somebody and made him
cleric against his will because he sees an advantage for himself in doing
so
("YOU ARE CHOSEN!!!" - "I??? Why me? I even don't believe in you!" -
"TRUST ME!!!")
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:43:39 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability
> So sorry that question was too simplistic for you, Great Khan. Others
> were nice enough to answer it without being so condescending. Thanks
> anyway.
>
> Jenn
It might have sound a little be different from what I had intended.
So sorry for that.
Jamuga Khan
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:28:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Of course you have not meant me, haven't you?
>
> Otherwise I have to become angry about you...
>
Not for the first time, no doubt 8-)~
> BTW, there's one possibility that a person could be a cleric even without
> the faintest idea of faith. An Immortal could choose somebody and made
him
> cleric against his will because he sees an advantage for himself in doing
> so
> ("YOU ARE CHOSEN!!!" - "I??? Why me? I even don't believe in you!" -
> "TRUST ME!!!")
>
Which would make an excellent character concept, btw; a dude (or dudessa)
chosen to be a prophet (or even "just" a cleric) by an Immortal. That
person should have (IMO) reverence for the Immortal in question, but
perhaps would rather have done something else with their life. However,
they have the burden of responsibility, like it or not.
Would make an interesting PC some time, I'll have to remember the idea.
Thanks, Jamuga.
(btw, the Doctors say I should be fully recovered in 4-6 weeks. 8-)~
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:49:23 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Hmmmn. . .I stupidly deleted or misplaced a message that I wanted to
reply to, and it had to do with reasurch (or lack theirof) aimed at
"solving" the problem of the declining proportion of spellcasters in
Alphatia.
My opinion was (and remains) that efforts would have been made to reasurch
a solution (perhaps misguided, but at anyhow all failures up to this
point), while someone else (grrr. .. sorry, forgetting who) was of the
opinion that the current rulers (spellcasters) would oppose such efforts
because it would weaken their status as a select few.
Then I responded that IMO this would require more unity than Alphatian
spellcasters are known for having, to which the retort was that in the
considered opinion of my debate partner it would require more unity to
reasurch a solution than it would to oppose such reasurch (correct me if
I'm mistating anything, as I'm doing it from memory since I can't find the
message).
I'd have to respectfully disagree again: IMO, it would only take a small
number of folks, or perhaps individuals acting (Alphatian-like) on their
own to try and reasurch this problem (would make a fine "Trial" for
someone striving for Immortality), while it would take virtually unanimous
agreement to *prevent* anyone from reasurching a solution.
And, if some slag finally did solve the "problem" (IMO, unlikely), the
tendancy for individual Alphatian overlords to act against the collective
interest and "cheat" (using the discovered method to i.e. imbue their own
children with the "talent" while hoping others won't do the same) would be
extreme.
After all, to quote from p.13 of the Player's Guide to Alphatia
"Alphatians, as a people -- their ruling classes, anyway -- are chaotic,
free, and individual. They believe in freedom of thought an choice. . .
.but only for thouse priviledged enough to wield magic*."
IMO, such folks would not likely bind themselves to a tradition or law
that would prevent them from conducting reasurches into a matter that is
considered one of upmost import to Alphatia as a whole (see pp. 13-14,
under "races", where it strongly implies that the situation of declining
proportion of magically talented individuals is considered an unwelcomed
circumstance. Note also the last paragraph, where Clerical magic is
obviously, IMO, put in a "second class" category; ". . .thouse unlucky ones
born without the magical trait turn t clerical magic.")
*Included this last sentance because it is often thought that the
care-free, free-thinking, individualism of Alphatia applies to all: it
applies only to the priviledged. The paragraph concludes "Thouse who cannot
utilize any sort of magic are destined to serve in one fashion or another."
I.E. they are not "free" in any sense of the word (see also the class
structure of Alphatia). This isn't to say that Alphatia is uniquely
horrible: this is actually reflective of "realistic" social structures of
midieval/renaissance cultures (I.E. Mystara as a whole), with priviledged
aristocracies amid a servile/unfree society. What divides Alphatia from,
say, Darokin is that in the latter it is wealth that provides priviledge,
and in the former magic.
But Alphatia should not be portrayed as a land of freedom and oportunity
for all (even the example I gave, Darokin, is better in that respect, in
that anyone can rise to priviledge by merit, while in Alphatia you either
have it, or you don't).
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:12:56 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
>IIrc wasn`t this one supposed to be in sphere of matter? If so how does
>his manufacture of the `Well of Souls` an item which destroys sentient
>matter be a good thing for the sphere? Is this in fact his opening move
>in a shift to Entropy? <;-P
Not necessarily. Recall that Rad, et alia, wanted to continue
researching the NoS, even though they knew it would result in the death
of magic on Mystara, which doesn't seem to jive with Energy's calling. I
fgiure Zugzul thought, "Afridhi need a powerful weapon, I'll give them
one." No other sphere than Matter knows how to really wreck havoc on
matter.
Another thing: I'm sick of all the evil Immortals to be in Entropy
(and virtually all Entropics being evil). One of the things I liked
about IM3 was that Pharamond, the villian, was from Energy.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:21:57 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>You think it manageable state ? I'd say they utterly destroy the
>civilisation : Is there still anything from the Nithians, Blackmoor
>peaple? Perhaps Alphayians are lucky after all ;o)
Perhaps the Immortals have decided that utter destruction isn't the
way to go after the last few fiascos: obliterating even the memory of
entire civilizations doesn't teach anyone any lessons. Now, they're
trying a new track with Alphatia.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:30:27 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
>Actually Zugzul is one of Energy. Zugzul is a very destructive
Immortal and
>sometimes seems to act like an Entropic one. There are a couple
Immortals of
>Energy like Zugzul. Marwdyn is an Energy Immortal with a primary
interest in
>Necromancy. I don't know much about him. I think he was the one who
got
>hanged and resurrected while mortal. Maybe Zugzul can be another name
for
>Marwdyn. Anyone have any info on him?
Yes, Marwdyn comes from IM3, where he is one of the pre-made
characters (which tells you right off the bat...): he was hanged as a
witch early on in his career but brought back to life. It didn't quite
work though, and he has a broken neck. He's interested in necromancy,
but he is a good guy; he just likes scaring people, and he talks to
himself in the third person. Unfortunately, he came aroung a long time
after Blackmoor and Afridhi; he was newly minted around 950-1000 AC
(depending on when you view the modules as opposed to the gazeteers).
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:34:17 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>But Alphatian spellcasters don't care what the preferences of others
are;
>if they want their children to be mages like mom, then they'd push them
>strongly in that direction if they could.
I don't know; Eridanna has (had) a lot of children, including a
power mage-heir (Zandor), and not all of them are mages either. After
all, Mariella is still a normal human: not exactly demonstrative of
parental demands (she's the Mystaran equivalent of the kid who stays at
home with the parents until they're 30; don't mean to offend anyone out
there :)) to go out and "get a job". Eridanna probably dotes on a few of
them.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:39:31 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian
Just interested to know whether we should
>expect Hule to become a little more interested in trade...:)
Aren't all traders liars at heart (if not in deed)? I'm sure the
mechantile spirit would flourish in Hule :)
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:46:46 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>What "name-level" master mages do you think are available to run all
>these schools, besies Terari/Tylion? (I had Aiklin get sick of being a
>Thyatian puppet)
In the Oenkmar Institute of Urrrgha!, you can find Felspell. His
collegue, Tormaq, is often seen lecturing Freshmen Scroll at Bozdogan
State Univeristy. I like utilizing various NPCs who don't seem to have
any existance after the module or adventure is over. You would be
suprised at the number of mages who are actually given names, and then
left to rust. When I was running the DA series, Jallapiere and Robert
the Bald started a little one-room log cabin school that would, upon the
players return, be found legendary in the most vague myths. It's the
little touches.
On another note, the school in Serraine IMC has become increasingly
important after Alphatia has a date with Rad's iceberg.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:56:51 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology & WotI?
>Woah.. Could it be that the World or Skyshield effects Mystara's
Physics?
Hmmmm. In the PWAII when that dashing hero of the skies, Haldemar,
attempts to enter the Hollow World through the southern entrance, he is
forced to use a gnomish machine that is quite clearly explained as
non-magical. Given that the World-Shield stops magic, and the above, it
would seem unlikely to corrupt technology (if you insist on doing so).
Magic works just fine in the Skyshield; witness Haldemar, scourge of the
Knights of Vanya, reaching Myoshima. This may indicate that the
Skyshield and the World-Shield are opposites, implying that the
Skyshield interfers with technology, which would explain why the Beagle
crashed when it came near.
Unrelated rant: you know what I really hated about the Skyshield as
given in PWAII? The fact that atmospheric pressure remains constant
until the end of the atmosphere. That's just plain stupid. Sure, it
makes it easy to scale mountains, and you don't need to change the
cooking times, but that just compleatly blows away so much chemistry and
thermodynamics (along with weight) that I wouldn't know where to begin
to create a Mystaran barometre.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:04:41 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Zugzul. Immortal of the Afridi
>Pardon me for being dense, but where do these Immortals appear? They
are VERY interesting.
Marwdyn is found in IM3, and has a brief mention in WoTI. As for
Zugzul, I can only assume that you don't have the DA series. Let me tell
you, you are missing out on some very important historical facts, as
well as (in my opinion) the best campaign world and adventures TSR ever
produced (and they didn't even create the world).
In a nutshell: in the Broken Lands, there is this old house.
Sometimes when you enter it, you get teleported back in time to the
Kingdom of Blackmoor. Not when it was technological mind you, but back
when it was just a runty little fiefdom trying to survive on all fronts.
The Beagle is around, but Capt. Bork Riesling (Guardian of the Galaxy,
Crusader of the Cosmos, Utterly Insane) is still in control, so only
personal pieces of technology have been sporadically leaked to the
surrounding lands. One of these countries if the Afridhi Empire. The
Afridhi worship Zugzul, who gave them this really nifty thingamajig,
"The Well of Souls", that lets them destroy anyone who gets in their
way. Which, unfortuantely, includes Blackmoor, and the players.
This is also where the Temple of the Frog is found. Fear Frog. Fall
before Frog. Love Frog. There is no choice!
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:06:14 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>I am? DOH! I'm only recieving one myself.
>
>Hmmmn. . . .wonder how to fix that. Lets see if only one of these
arrives.
I noticed that you earlier postshad two addresses that you where
sending to: mystara-l@mpgn.com and mystara-1@lists.mpgn.com. Perhaps
therein lies the problem.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:11:44 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>BTW, there's one possibility that a person could be a cleric even
without
>the faintest idea of faith. An Immortal could choose somebody and made
him
>cleric against his will because he sees an advantage for himself in
doing
>so
> ("YOU ARE CHOSEN!!!" - "I??? Why me? I even don't believe in you!" -
>"TRUST ME!!!")
Yes! Just like in Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods"! But remember, all
true Immortal/god beings would speak not only in capitals, but also in
chapter and verse.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:25:53 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
(correct me if I'm mistating anything, as I'm doing it from memory since
I can't find the message).
> I'd have to respectfully disagree
You almost got the gist of it, except for the part where I'm right
:)
>own to try and reasurch this problem (would make a fine "Trial" for
>someone striving for Immortality)
That is one of my points: Alphatia must be hard enough as it is to
become Immortal in the sphere of Energy (remove all mages within some
large radius, which in Alphatia more than likely means several potential
Council members) than to create even more magic-users.
while it would take virtually unanimous
>agreement to *prevent* anyone from reasurching a solution.
Except that no one has yet. I feel that to arrest the decline, the
Alphatian overlords would have to pull some major research effort, akin
to the Manhattan project.
I don't see any reason why the mages would even think of working
together. On the whole, the rulers of Alphatia at best are wary of each
other, and at worst, act like clones of di Malapietra. Combined, they
are a mistrustful and petty lot. They have to be, because in these
politics, if you're not cheating someone, you're being cheated. "He who
strives for goodness in all his deeds is certain to come to ruin, for
their are so many men who are not good." Machievelli.
All spellcasters are aristocracy automatically, and as soon as they
get some money they're nobility. Why on Earth would an existing
aristocrat want to do some research so that there can be more
aristocrats? Power corrupts, and the rulers stop seeking the welfare of
the country, and focus entirely on themselves. To use Darokin as an
example (not the rendering I've been giving it lately:)), since the
economy is better when the public has a lot of money (to spend on goods;
look at America, the consumer nation), the merchants would do well to
give their money to less-fortunate. That doesn't exactly happen, and the
guild heads are well aware that there is only so much money to go
around: what the new "aristocarcy" gets is what I can't, thus deriving
me of potential profit.
All in all, a worthy debate with you.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:42:48 EDT
From: Carmegil@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
ahhh the ISD 17000 design flaws waiting to be exploited
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:49:31 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
>WOW, Nicholas...Comments?...I'm speechless. This is GREAT stuff. Just
>wondering--are these events from your own campaign, or are you our next
Mystara novelist??
No no! My ego has swelled beyond the confines of my head! It's
going to...Argggggghh! Thanks a lot, now I have to clean up the mess :).
I'm glad someone likes my doggrel. I was just making it up as I
went along, but I will probably use it in my campaign (funny thing was,
I started out on this debate arguing against any change in Darokin...).
The only problem is, I'm sure one of my players reads this list, and I'm
pretty sure who it is too; that's right, Mighty Master of the Ancient
Arcane... we'll see how hot you are when you accidently snap your Staff
of Wizardy!
Unless I receive complaints, I'll continue. I can't add any right
now because I can't quite remember my geography (I took some liberties
to get the Horde down here; I figured that the Khan needs some nice open
spaces to roll around in). As soon as I can find some good maps, I'll
detail the further degenerecy of Tortuga, Darokin, et c..
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:52:43 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
At 10:30 AM 9/14/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>
>>
>> As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for
>> it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort
>> of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain
>> age? In a certain place?
>>
> Some folks are working on "Alphatian Gazeteers":
Yeah, dat would be me...and a couple others...
I wonder if they've
>adressed this question.
Nope, hence the question.
*grin*
>If so, they might have good answers.
Of course! And if I come up with the answer myself, it will be undoubtedly
good! But I figured I would toss it out to see what kind of answers come
back...
> Here's my "seat of the pants" one based on the general answer I gave
>before:
> All Alphatian cities and most Alphatian towns have a sort of
>"supdepartment of evaluation" (within a notional "department of magical
>education" where the lucky few go once the trait is discovered).
> Depending upon how formalized/widespread you think education is made
>available within Alphatia, the testing might be conducted there: testers go
>out to schools, including villiage schools, and at a given age (say, 6, if
>we assume Alphatian children enter school at 6), they all recieve a battery
>of tests looking for the trait. If in your campaign this kind of education
>system isn't widespread, well IMO every villiage and town would have a
>focal point (temple, market, whatever), and the children would be gathered
>there for testing. A kind of "noble lie" (c.f. plato) would be set up so
>that even the slaves thought that this was a wonderful practice.
Hmm, I think 6 is too young...but then again, we want to get them when
young...I think focal point is good. Everyone should eventually make it to
one of the larger universities...of course, education is "optional", but
very likely. In other words, the reward of being an automatic aristocrat,
coupled with extreme social pressure, pretty much guarantees that everyone
partakes of the free(?) education.
Okay, so kids are rounded up at a certain age, I think 8 personally, and
tested for magic. The ones who test are sent far enough away to seperate
them from their parents, but not necessarily terribly far. Or maybe they
are taught by an elder of the village...
Until such a time (perhaps about 15) as they are ready to go to one of the
larger universities.
> If discovered, the children would then go out from their families to
>magical academies at, say, age 7. Now, we might think that this particular
>practice is mean, but magical training takes a long time, and don't
>remember that young noblemen became pages at age 7, went from their own
>family to that of a neighboring nobleman to start to learn how to be
>knights; this is little different from that, IMO.
Hey! Almost exactly what I was thinking! Just a little different on the
ages...of course, mage parents would have an easy time of visiting their
kids. I am sure all parents would be free to visit their kids in school,
provided they are able...in other words, not much chance for the slave
parents.
> Thus, even the children of the servile wogs and slaves who manifest the
>"trait" will be schooled in magic, and indoctrinated. . .er, educated. .
>.in the social customs of the Alphatian aristocracy and the proud and noble
>history of Alphatia (c.f. Plato's Republic on the education of the young.)
It almost depends on the exact nature you want. A communist-like
seperation and reeducation? Teach them to rat on their parents and break
down their loyalties?
Or do we have a local teacher in each area so that the kids can stay with
their parents?
>
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>
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #626
********************************
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mystara-digest Tuesday, September 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 627
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
[MYSTARA] - mystara-digest V1997 #625
[MYSTARA] - mystara-digest V1997 #625
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Healing Immortal
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:52:43 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
At 10:30 AM 9/14/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>
>>
>> As for testing, I too would be interested in a "storyline" system for
>> it. How did Alphatian mages test children? We know they had some sort
>> of system for testing EVERY child. Were children tested at a certain
>> age? In a certain place?
>>
> Some folks are working on "Alphatian Gazeteers":
Yeah, dat would be me...and a couple others...
I wonder if they've
>adressed this question.
Nope, hence the question.
*grin*
>If so, they might have good answers.
Of course! And if I come up with the answer myself, it will be undoubtedly
good! But I figured I would toss it out to see what kind of answers come
back...
> Here's my "seat of the pants" one based on the general answer I gave
>before:
> All Alphatian cities and most Alphatian towns have a sort of
>"supdepartment of evaluation" (within a notional "department of magical
>education" where the lucky few go once the trait is discovered).
> Depending upon how formalized/widespread you think education is made
>available within Alphatia, the testing might be conducted there: testers go
>out to schools, including villiage schools, and at a given age (say, 6, if
>we assume Alphatian children enter school at 6), they all recieve a battery
>of tests looking for the trait. If in your campaign this kind of education
>system isn't widespread, well IMO every villiage and town would have a
>focal point (temple, market, whatever), and the children would be gathered
>there for testing. A kind of "noble lie" (c.f. plato) would be set up so
>that even the slaves thought that this was a wonderful practice.
Hmm, I think 6 is too young...but then again, we want to get them when
young...I think focal point is good. Everyone should eventually make it to
one of the larger universities...of course, education is "optional", but
very likely. In other words, the reward of being an automatic aristocrat,
coupled with extreme social pressure, pretty much guarantees that everyone
partakes of the free(?) education.
Okay, so kids are rounded up at a certain age, I think 8 personally, and
tested for magic. The ones who test are sent far enough away to seperate
them from their parents, but not necessarily terribly far. Or maybe they
are taught by an elder of the village...
Until such a time (perhaps about 15) as they are ready to go to one of the
larger universities.
> If discovered, the children would then go out from their families to
>magical academies at, say, age 7. Now, we might think that this particular
>practice is mean, but magical training takes a long time, and don't
>remember that young noblemen became pages at age 7, went from their own
>family to that of a neighboring nobleman to start to learn how to be
>knights; this is little different from that, IMO.
Hey! Almost exactly what I was thinking! Just a little different on the
ages...of course, mage parents would have an easy time of visiting their
kids. I am sure all parents would be free to visit their kids in school,
provided they are able...in other words, not much chance for the slave
parents.
> Thus, even the children of the servile wogs and slaves who manifest the
>"trait" will be schooled in magic, and indoctrinated. . .er, educated. .
>.in the social customs of the Alphatian aristocracy and the proud and noble
>history of Alphatia (c.f. Plato's Republic on the education of the young.)
It almost depends on the exact nature you want. A communist-like
seperation and reeducation? Teach them to rat on their parents and break
down their loyalties?
Or do we have a local teacher in each area so that the kids can stay with
their parents?
>
>***************************************************************************
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>'unsubscribe mystara-l' as the body of the message.
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:54:30 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> I don't know; Eridanna has (had) a lot of children, including a
> power mage-heir (Zandor), and not all of them are mages either.
>
Yes, but DotE strongly implies that if she had her way they'd *all* be
mages, and one of her greatest disapointments is that none of the children
she had with Torenal have the ability to cast spells.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:03:37 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
No problem!
Lessee, basically the 12 stats are divided into 3 groupings, physical,
mental and social/spiritual. The mental consist of Talent, Intelligence,
Judgement, and Will Power. It is an old version of Ysgarth, by Ragnarok
Games. I have always felt it is elegant, yet complex. Definitely not for
the novice DM. It uses a mana point system, variable weapon and spell
damage, located damage, hitpoints and fatigue points and multiple stats for
armor.
The 12 primary stats are cross referenced on a chart to produce secondary
stats like damage class, attack rating, missle rating, fatigue points,
hitpoints...
At 11:44 AM 9/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm really interested in this twelve-point system. Could you possibly
>:-) be so kind as to explain it to me further (or give just a brief
>rundown) privately?
>
>Oh, and P.S.: Thank you for the support :) (Gosh, I sound like an old
>Bartles and James ad:)..Just showing my age...
>
>Jenn
>
>valerya@hotmail.com
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:10:49 +0200
From: Antonio Lopez <101659@ingta.unizar.es>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - mystara-digest V1997 #625
hi all,
i have lost the digest #624. Can someone subscribed in digest way contact
with me for send me the file?
thanks
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Antonio Lopez
ICQ 14670831
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/1639/index.html
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:18:01 +0200
From: Antonio Lopez <101659@ingta.unizar.es>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - mystara-digest V1997 #625
sorry i means the digest #625!!!
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Antonio Lopez
ICQ 14670831
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/1639/index.html
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:17:31 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
>
> Except that no one has yet. I feel that to arrest the decline, the
> Alphatian overlords would have to pull some major research effort, akin
> to the Manhattan project.
> I don't see any reason why the mages would even think of working
> together.
>
Hmmmn. . .I actually think we're in fundimental agreement on the important
points, since we:
1) agree that the Alph. mages are totally unlikely to cooperate on this
kind of endevour (IMO either enforcing a "ban" on such reasurch or in
conducting it)
and that
2) to "solve" the problem would require a monumental effort and be
unlikely to succeed (which isn't to say their aren't a half a dozen, or
more, arrogant Alphatian mages conducting reasurch projects on the subject
right now, absolutely certain that *they* are on the right track and that
others failed because they were fools).
I guess my main disagreement with you was a small insignificant one
(typicall of me; picking over small details *G*), which is whether the
Alphatians could impose a effective ban on conducting such reasurch at all,
because it would be against their interests as a collective class. IMO, the
Alphatians don't have the kind of aristicratic "unity of spirit" to achieve
such a result, expecially since though they might realize that in agrigate
their interests would be served in keeping their numbers limited, the
tendancy on an individual basis to want to "cheat" would be profoundly
powerful (after all, if you can devise a way to turn people of your choice
into overnight aristocrats, and thus turn people who are likely to agree
with you, support your positions, and be grateful to you, you might want to
do it: that increases your own personal power by making you "patron" to a
group of "client" aristocrats).
In any case, the "real" power is held by a group that is limited to an
arbitrary number: only 1,000 wizards can be on the council, no matter how
many 36th level mages their may be at any given time, and their are only so
many kingdoms. This is where the real power in Alphatia lies, and the
conciet that all spellcasters form a "natural aristocracy" is to a large
degree just a "noble lie" again: the spellcasters may, as a class, enjoy
lots of priviledges compaired to the non-spellcasting wogs, but only a
tight group forms the actual class of decision-makers, thouse with true
power, and they have already limited their number.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:29:00 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Hmm, I think 6 is too young...but then again, we want to get them when
> young...I think focal point is good. Everyone should eventually make it
to
> one of the larger universities...of course, education is "optional", but
> very likely. In other words, the reward of being an automatic
aristocrat,
> coupled with extreme social pressure, pretty much guarantees that
everyone
> partakes of the free(?) education.
>
The Players Guide to Alph has a short but good section on magical
education. IMO, they'd probably go early (right away, rather than age 15),
since being an Alphatian mage isn't only about casting spells, it's about a
certain attitude towards life, and the Alphatians would want to infuse that
into the students as well, which means they'd want to take 'em before their
opinions et al were formed.
If you wait till they're 15, they might develop unpleasant ideas about
their family members (non-spellcasters) being subjected to all kinds of
"indignities," so it is better to take 'em early so they can be educated in
the proper perspective on life (the Alphatian one).
>
> Until such a time (perhaps about 15) as they are ready to go to one of
the
> larger universities.
>
> It almost depends on the exact nature you want. A communist-like
> seperation and reeducation? Teach them to rat on their parents and break
> down their loyalties?
>
Well, they shouldn't be quite that bad; they'd want to change the student's
loyalties, but not rat on their parents (the Alphatians couldn't care less
what such folks thought). The education should be close enough so the
parents could visit, but far enough that close contact couldn't easily be
maintained (Plato's stuff on the education of the young is *very*
appropriate here. Of course, the system he sets up insures/tries to insure
that parental bonding doesn't occur at all; IMO, that isn't appropriate for
Alphatia--it goes to far, and breaks canon, but some of the other stuff
could be cribbed from).
>
> Or do we have a local teacher in each area so that the kids can stay with
> their parents?
>
If the children's parents aren't spellcasters, IMO close contact would be
discouraged, so that the students will come to believe in the Alphatian
system.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:39:01 -0400
From: Andrew Toth <beyowulf@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
At 08:48 AM 9/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I mentioned before how the system we use has 12 stats instead of 6. The
>one for priests and paladins is "Zeal". The higher the zeal the more
>power you are granted by your diety. But here's the kicker: Zeal
>represents the amount of attention your diety gives you. It does not
>represent anything innate.
>
>I just thought this was an interesting way to word it.
>
>So how do we want to have magic work for priests? Do Immortals directly
>grant powers? Do they sort of give a "one time license" to do miracles
>as long as no particularly bad sins are done?
>
>Is clerical magic internal or external?
External, methinks, or wouldn't they be mystics(Hmm? Are mystics the
D&D equivalent of psionicists?)
Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant
Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==-
|/
"A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully"
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:51:27 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>External, methinks, or wouldn't they be mystics(Hmm? Are mystics the
D&D equivalent of psionicists?)
Only to a degree. What they best fit is the anime/ Asian martial
arts film archetype of the martial arts warrior. Their chi (qi), or
"battle aura", is extremely well-advanced, and they are capable of using
this energy to accomplish their various preternatural feats. Really,
they're based on the 1st ed. AD&D monk, and the description of cloister
life, based on a Holy Roman monestary, is really there to give them a
European basis, rather than an Oriental.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:28:43 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic
[note: there are two separate posts in this mail]
In a message dated 98-09-13 19:17:01 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
<< <snip>
>i am enjoying the debate. i hope the rest are getting some gaming use out of
>it. however, the discussion is becoming repeats of already cited info. one
>thing i really cannot stand is repeating myself. this also implies that
debate
>has ended .... and opinions have taken over. and as we all know you cannot
>debate opinions.
>
>so i won't repeat myself again as it would be in vain anyway. plus it'll
keep
>the list a bit emptier.
Hi Alex, I enjoyed the debate too and liked your latest messages very much.
Anyway, don't you think the discussion is going somewhat off-topic?
We started with Technomancy, moved to .50 cal MG vs. Mystaran army and now
we're discussing about NATO tanks technology.
Anyway, let me know if you'll move this to private e-mail. >>
thanks fabrizio. currently, this thread is bordering on off topic status. the
saving grace is the spell discussion. i guess you could find a benefit from
the comparisons, especially if the reader is adventuring in a blackmoor
campaign.
as long as others and Leroy do not mind i see little reason to stop. with that
in mind, maintaining a civil tone and avoiding a flamewar are vital to
sticking to the core of this thread which was tech vs. magic.
anyway...i am going to stick to my no repeat and no arguing opinions stance to
keep the peace. and i'll try to keep the discussion conformed to the basic
premise.
- ------------------
In a message dated 98-09-13 19:22:48 EDT, brizio@lunet.it writes:
<< At 08.42 10/09/98 +0100, Rob wrote:
>
>Mmm. It was discovered in World War 1 that a 0.50 cal can do a very good
>job of mowing down whole armies... But the teleportation option is valid.
You're right about WWI. But that those armies had no magic and could not fly.
A frontal ground assault against a .50 cal is stupid, but if you could get
behind or above the .50 cal, that would be very different.
A MG is a very good 2-D weapon, but IMO it doesn't work very well in 3-D,
i.e. against flying troops. >>
sorry but the .50 cal is a heavy machine gun. it is classed as a dual purpose
mg for both ground and air targets. it filled this duel role from ww2 to
present day. other MGs find an antiaircraft role. most of the modern tanks
with a turret mounted MG use them for airprotection. mainly versus attack
choppers. even the Russians use a derivative of the 50 cal for their tanks.
the russian NSVT 12.7mm mg is classed as an antiaircraft machine gun. btw- the
.50 cal is also 12.7mm.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:29:26 EDT
From: Alex295@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
In a message dated 98-09-13 07:05:20 EDT, dr_bombastic@hotmail.com writes:
<< >well tankers are not 6 week wonders. US tankers train religiously.
their
>regimine is second only to the fighter jocks. so whereas a infantryman
would
>be a F1 or F2. a tanker would be F3 to F5. so tankers would save vs.
whatever
>more often than a foot soldier. tankers are an elite force and should
be
>recognized as such.
Ok, the tankers should be higher than a average footman, but those
aren't the people the tank is going up against. After any Mystara
kingdom has a few regular regiments blown away by the "Rolling Death",
they're going to send in some elite, Companion-level+ shock forces,
namely heroes, who ALWAYS win, regardless of the odds. Even if the
tankers are 5th level, those saving throws don't do much a really high
level mage/ cleric; Holy Word would do wonders. >>
well actually the tanks would be facing the foot infantry. elite mystaran
adventurer types would come in after the initial meetings between sword and
.223 cal ammo. one should also remember the gun's equalizing factor. plus
there are the modern forces own elite units such as the Recon Marines, SAS,
Navy SEALs, US Special Forces, and so on. imagine what a US Ranger company or
the 10th Mountain Division could do. and lest we forget the 101st or 82nd
Airborne.
one advantage a techno army has that has not been offerred is mechanization. a
mechanized division could engage the foot armies of the KW at will and at an
unending pace.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:28:08 +0200 (EET DST)
From: Anias Pasi <a122286@students.cc.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> > I don't know; Eridanna has (had) a lot of children, including a
> > power mage-heir (Zandor), and not all of them are mages either.
> Yes, but DotE strongly implies that if she had her way they'd *all* be
> mages, and one of her greatest disapointments is that none of the children
> she had with Torenal have the ability to cast spells.
I just thought to give You something to think about...
Some were tallking about using wish to give the boy ability to use
spells. Well I'm sure its possible. But he wont be the same boy anymore.
Suppose You would have allways wanted a boy, but You only get girl-babyes.
Would You use wish to change one of them into boy? what happens,
kind of, is that the original child is taken behind the curtain, and the
same baybe or a new one is bring back, only now it's a mage...
Changing children into something isn't as trivial as it has been made in
this discussion (allright I missed some of this, so maybe somebody
allready pointed this out). The real problem isn't technical, its moral.
After all, if You really wanted a boy, You could just pay enough money
(and the Alphatians would be millionairs) and the doctors would
make her him.
I think that atleast those in the list who have children agree with me,
that no mother would give away the original child to get one
with the right stats. You just continue trying.
Pasi
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X Pasi Anias X p.03 - 2533536 X \\|// X
X Sammonkatu 28 A 18 X a122286@proffa X (o o) X
X 33540 Tampere X .cc.tut.fi X o000--(_)--000o X
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:28:05 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Healing Immortal
In a message dated 1998-09-11 18:18:56 Eastern Daylight Time,
Valerya@webtv.net writes:
> Just wondering...Has anyone ever introduced an Immortal specifically
> devoted to the healing arts (magic, herbalism, etc.)? I don't know much
> (in fact, hardly anything at all) about Gareth--does he qualify?
I think that the Traladaran Immortal Chardastes was supposed to be devoted
to healing. He is mentioned very briefly in WotI.
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adam Curtis <ac2@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra) wrote:
>><<A well-written response with many good points,
Adam. One question: a Hulean invasion (assumed
successful) would bring ia very different culture
(Turkish/Ottoman influence) into play here; do you
really see it being ultimately compatable, or would
the incompatbility lead to the re-establishment of
the Darokinian state (or a collection of
city-states)?>><<
Of course there is a big assumption made here, that
Hule is Mystaran Turkey. I read your deduction on
your website (if you haven't already, start thinking
PhD in history. You're really good :) . If indeed
the writers deliberately drew the parallel, Hule is
probably Mystaran Turkey. But it's hard to say
without tracking down one of Hule's creators. Some
Mystaran nations aren't directly molded on a real
world model (Denagoth, Wendar, Ierendi, Alphatia for
the most part (but I did notice the Lamassu figure on
the cover too. It's attributed to the Assyrian
culture rather than the Babylonian culture I
believe), and some others).
Here's a clash in cultural contexts that also pull me
towards "Hule is purely Hule." The leaders of the
Ottoman Turks were warlords, then the Sultan with the
founding of the empire. Islamic scholars certainly
held some political power, but I believe the Turks
actually molded much of Islam to their existing
culture rather than letting the religion mold them
(like Japan molding Buddhism to their culture instead
of the other way around). Hule is instead managed by
a hagiarchy (hagiarchy? It's a term I never heard
before. I'd have assumed the proper word for their
system would be theocracy. Is a real life example of
hagiarchy old Tibet?). Religion shaped the culture
and holds temporal power. And the Huleans worship
Bozdogan (aka. Loki!) making Hule an essentially
evil, or at least nasty, culture. I don't think my
muslim friends would appreciate Bozdogan being
considered Mystaran Allah, so I tend to doubt that
the writers would make an intentional, loose
connection when just regarding the last point.
Heh, enough digression :)
I do see enough similarity though to not discount the
Turkish theory. Let's just say Hule *is* Mystaran
Turkey. A very special situation emerges.
The Ottoman Empire saw explosive enlargement due
largely to its system of military conscription
(essentially the Mameluke system, but I think the
Turks used a different term for it). Christians,
Jews, and any other non-muslim people the Ottomans
overran would see the cream of its male youth sucked
into the military system for a decade or so. Very
quickly the Ottoman military was entirely comprised
of conquered peoples being indoctrinated into the
muslim faith. A constant supply of fresh soldiers
kept the Ottomans expanding, getting more soldiers,
expanding more, getting more soldiers, and so on,
until the Ottoman Empire owned everything from Qatar
to Armenia to Hungary to Morocco!
Then comes that fateful generation in the 1600s where
the Ottoman Empire twice attempted to seize Vienna
and its valued secure position in Europe. Twice the
Austrians and Polish turned them back. The Ottoman
Empire had gone too long without expanding, and the
denial of Vienna marked the moment when the military
system collapsed. Few Ottomans joined the military,
and its ranks receded as the majority of the army
came of age and retired. So much territory, so
little military. The Ottomans quickly lost ground,
then began a slow and steady retreat to Anatolia
where the super power finally croaked in 1918.
If Hule's military works along the same lines, it's
likely that Darokinians will fit right in
beautifully, first as soldiers, then as merchants who
fervently worship Loki (a truly scary thought ;).
Then Hule could theoretically use Darokin as its
launchpad to suck the rest of the Old World into its
power.
Of course, if Hule does use the Mameluke system, and
Darokin or another target nation denies Hosadus from
expanding his realm long enough, Hule might strike a
full retreat, even leaving Sind behind.
?La guerra de Hule en Darokin es muy interesante, no?
And James Ruhland wrote:
> Me (Adam)
<<
> equivalent RL European time period. If Darokin
> proper maintains at least a decent level of political
> unity and efficiency (and it may have only gotten
> stronger facing the past and imminent Hulean armies
> of conquest), marriage won't detatch any territory of
> Darokin.
>
Oh, I'd agree with the above. We were talking about a
"notional" Darokin where the central government of
the Republic has collapsed (for whatever reason) and
the nation devolved into city-states. >>
Ahh. That does make a difference.
<<IMO, even in such an eventuality, the resulting
mess would remain broadly "Darokinian" and not be
absorbed by another power through marriage (witness
Italy from the Dark Ages to the 19th century: divided
into a hodge-podge, but still retaining its "Italian"
character regardless of the vissicitudes of
international politics).>>
I agree it's still unlikely Darokin would become
geo-apple pie, but Italy certainly wasn't an example
of independent city states. Other than Tuscany, the
Papal States, Piedmont, and Venice (and maybe some
smaller states I can't remember), Italy was
completely under foreign domination since the late
1400s. Spain/Austria held everything south of the
Papal States almost constantly, and Spain usually
held Milan and various other N.Italian States when
France wasn't contending for European supremacy.
Luckily for Italy, most Italians now at least speak
the vernacular if not as their first language. That
breakthrough didn't happen until within the past
decade, and until this happened, the overall Italian
feel you referred to didn't exist between all the
cooky dialects, German, Slovenian, French, Albanian,
and Greek speakers living within miles of each other.
And the dialects aren't exactly similar, like the
American dialect and Queen's English. Two Italian
dialect speakers usually only understand each other
as much as if one were speaking Spanish and the other
speaking French, or words exchanged might sound
particularly insulting without intention. For
instance, my Great Grandmother was from Abruzzi in
the Appenines. Her home town, Fallo, I think refers
to a pretty landscape feature in Abruzziese. In the
Italian vernacular, Fallo means, well, look it up and
you'll understand why that little mountain town is so
famous in Italy.
If I called all the above wrong, I'm sure Marco will
let me know :) .
<<
> I'll go slightly off topic, but it'll all come back
> around to Darokin. Just looking solely in Western
> Europe, vast culture gaps in a common state didn't
> always equal state-threatening tensions.
>
> Perhaps the worst example, though still viable, of
> this phenomenon was the Hapsburg Empire
>
The Hapsburg Inheritance was almost always at war
(ok, true, this statement could be made about almost
every contemporary nation), however it was *not* very
stable, and was almost always at war with itself.>>
As was typical of most states of the time. I was
just conveying that the Hapsburg Empire actually
worked well for a period despite its enormity and
diversity before it devolved into a royal
slaughterpen of epic proportions.
<< It was for the very reason of the Hapbsburg
dominion's fundimental ungovernability that Charles V
(or was it Phillip II? I can't recall now. . .)>>
It was his pop, Charles V.
<< decided to split it into two portions, shucking
off the traditional Hapsburg "core" in Austria (and
with it IIRC the "imperial" title over the mess that
was and remained Germany)>>
Yes, the Emperor of Austria was ceded the title "Holy
Roman Emperor" over the Spanish King. IMO it was a
little concession to Emperor Ferdinand who only got
some German territories while his nephew inherited
the *whole* gigantic remainder.
<<
> Another example: the United Kingdom.
>
A special case, IMO, since its island nature made its
experience different from the rest of Europe.>>
All countries are different from Europe in some way.
<<Btw, the "union" of Scotland with England to form
the United Kingdom was a process that took centuries,
and some might say it never really took at all
(witness current "devolution" debates in contemporary
Britain).>>
England and Scotland were effectively unified under
James Stuart, an event most English and Scottish
don't dismiss. Scotland did have autonomous
tendencies during most of the time since, but again,
neither party claimed the two entities were
ununified, and the UK did act largely in military
harmony since then.
As for the present, devolution debates take place
anywhere. Upper State New York wants secession from
NYC/Long Island, LA county wants secession from LA,
Texas wants secession from the US, Northern Maine
wants secession from Southern Maine, Massachusetts
wants secession from inner-beltway Boston, umpteen
militia groups want secession . . . someone always
wants to leave something. But it's not often in the
western world that such sentiments win anything close
to popular support (Quebec being the modern exception).
And what exactly happened in Scotland recently?
There has been talk of secession for years, but
Scotland instead vocally supported an Edinburg
Parliament for more autonomy, but continued
partnership with London. The UK is far from falling
apart.
<<
> Whales came into the kingdom through conquest,
> but it offered little trouble after a few generations
> of union even though the culture remained decidedly
> different.
>
A point I think I made when I said it was in some
respects easier to absorb territory through conquest
than it is through peaceful union (I.E. marriage). >>
Yes, but Wales was hard to subdue under Edward I, one
of Europe's greatest military minds to ever live.
His successors weren't anywhere near his calibur . .
. and yet Wales, still with its divergent celtic
culture, didn't break away, even though it could have
fairly easily. Of course, having your very own (the
Tudor Dynasty) become the rulers of the conquering
nation helped out, but there was a significant gap in
years between Edward I and the Tudors.
<<
> These are five distinct ethnicities with
> different cultures and languages, yet Spain has
> remained unified (barring short periods of war) with
> little ethnic strife for over 500 years.
>
And it achieved that unity after 500 years of
squabbling. Of course it is a fine example of
achieving unity through marriage, but almost a unique
one.>>
Spain squabbles more now than it did then. And I'll
reiterate that those in Spain have peacefully
cohabitated with little disruption since 1492.
<<
> By far the best example: France.
>
A nation that spent most of the middle ages in a
worse state of disorder than even the conglomeration
known as the "Holy Roman Empire". >>
(Roll around laughing on the floor.) Heh . . .
(brush, brush) James, you're joking, right?
<< Hardly a historical model of unified stability: on
numerous occassions the Frankish "King" governed only
the "ile du France" in the immediate vicinity of
Paris itself. >>
It's "Ile de France", and the Capetians had already
chipped away much of that problem by 1100. The
French Kings systematically broke down feudalism
through marriage, then through the royal cult of St.
Denis, then through authority as the Suzer of all
French Dukes, and then brute force (Philip Augustus
brought all this to fruition).
And after France kicked out the pesky English Kings
that used old feudal rules to press claims in France
(say 1450?), only Burgundy and Avignon were within
the French realm and wielding authority autonomous of
the French King. A political mess, you say? More so
than an "empire" that had an amalgam of over three
thousand mini-states, theoretically unified but all
independently run for one thousand years?
Anyway all the aforementioned French ethnic groups
recognized themselves as French and cooperated
reasonably most of the time, even during the Huguenot
crisis and the French Revolution.
And if you still don't accept my analysis on
political nationalism, I'll ask that you just trust
that most historians recognize the phenomenon and
also recognize that Europe west of the Elbe largely
subscribes(d) to political nationalism while those
east of the river are mostly ethnic nationalist in
philosophy (I just got done on an entire course
covering the topic in May).
<<
> Quick note: the Austrian Hapsburgs consolidated the
> Austrian, Hungarian, and Bohemian Crowns into one
> Crown after the branching of Hapsburgs into the
> Austrian and Spanish lines.
>
But that didn't take, and ultimately (on the eve of
WWII) the mess became the "Dual Monarchy" (the
Hungarians brought on board to help repress some
of the other folks as "partners" with the Austrians),
and IIRC it even became a "Triple Monarchy" for a
time before the whole mess flew apart under the
presure of war. >>
The triple monarchy?! Haven't heard that one before.
Who was the third party, if you know?
The consolidation did help strengthen Austria (it
likely wouldn't have survived the War of Austrian
Succession without it), and it didn't start to really
wane in power until Prussia and Italy kicked its butt
in the Austro-Prussian war (1866 I think). Even
then, the dual monarchy had its major successes, most
notably the seizure of Bosnia, no small task
considering the Balkans were rife with ethnic
tensions (of course a certain incident in Sarajevo
would ignite Europe in 1914).
<< The Hapsburg aglomeration suffered relative
decline throughout the 19th and early 20th century. I
can't remember, was it von Moltke (the younger) who
said during WWI "We have shackled ourselves to a
corpse" (refering to moribund Austria-Hungary)? >>
Already touched on some of this above. But whether
or not Austria was truly a drag on the German War
machine is debatable. Other than needing German help
to throw the Italians back, Austria-Hungary drew the
Russian Attack letting Germany run right in and,
after supplying Bulgaria with weapons and material,
crushed Serbia. But were they a better ally than,
say, France or England? Germany desperately longed
for such an ally, but Austria-Hungary was a decent
substitute.
<< I do remember that the Austrian Emperor (was it
Franz Joseph? Franz Ferdinand? I can't remember that,
either) was once told that a certain subject was a
good patriot, and his response was "yes, but is he a
patriot for me?" The dude was a very wise man, but he
governed an essentially anachronistic realm, and in
his heart he seems to have known it. . . .>>
I think it was Franz Joseph. Anyway . . .
<<
> Despite all my analysis, I don't want to take any
> guess on how Darokin will weather the coming years.
> Right now, political union seems strong, but it could
> change with almost no warning, especially in the
> shadow of Hule.
>
Especially since IMO Hosadus' modus operandi
shouldn't be full-scale invasion with massed armies,
but subversion from within, scheming and planting
plots to cause Darokin to fly apart (perhaps &
probably it is
the machinations of Hosadus that insures that the SC
Baronies are disunited).>>
Absolutely. After all, that is the way of Loki, right?
<<
> annexation campaign in Darokin, the Five Shires will
> throw its full military force into Darokin to bolster
> the defense,
>
Damn. I'll bet the Master trembles every time he
thinks of that possibility. Quite a deterant. 8-)~ >>
Oh, wasn't talking about deterring him, just other
pie grabbers. After all, what good is farmland when
ravenous halflings eat all your corn without
compensation or a horde of Hulean beasties fire pop
it all?
<<
> Anyone ambitious (actually foolish) enough to snatch
> land in Darokin right now better be able to deal with
Hosadus could probably grab Akesoli and hold it
without much trouble. >>
He could, but I was referring again to other
outsiders, none of which could hope for territorial
continuity, easy access, or natural boundaries.
Whew! Enough writing tonight . . . :)
AC
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #627
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mystara-digest Tuesday, September 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 628
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
[MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:18:23 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic
>sorry but the .50 cal is a heavy machine gun. it is classed as a dual
purpose
>mg for both ground and air targets. it filled this duel role from ww2 to
>present day. other MGs find an antiaircraft role. most of the modern tanks
>with a turret mounted MG use them for airprotection. mainly versus attack
>choppers. even the Russians use a derivative of the 50 cal for their tanks.
>the russian NSVT 12.7mm mg is classed as an antiaircraft machine gun. btw-
the
>.50 cal is also 12.7mm.
even tho it is completely ineffective against aircraft :) tankers dont
normally "look up", because that is the job of other units, like AAA.
Whether a flying mage would show up on radar or not is another matter (if
something like a human being shows up, than birds would be showing up as
well :). It may be a case of too much sophistication, in that radar AAA
would be less effective than manually fired stuff..
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:23:41 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: How effective is a panzerfaust against a troll, Heinz?
>well actually the tanks would be facing the foot infantry. elite mystaran
>adventurer types would come in after the initial meetings between sword and
>.223 cal ammo. one should also remember the gun's equalizing factor. plus
>there are the modern forces own elite units such as the Recon Marines, SAS,
>Navy SEALs, US Special Forces, and so on. imagine what a US Ranger company
or
>the 10th Mountain Division could do. and lest we forget the 101st or 82nd
>Airborne.
But I dont think anyone (not even the SAS!) can compete with adventurers in
the Heroism factor. The SAS may have been sent to Her Majesty's Training
Ground (ie northern ireland) but Our Heroes have battled dragons, killed
demons, and Saved the Universe on repeated occasions.
That being said, in Tale of the Comet Jazra, the lieutenant in charge of the
Rael Marines is level 14 :) But she eats Overseer (read : Borg/Terminator
crossbreeds) minions for breakfast :)
>one advantage a techno army has that has not been offerred is
mechanization. a
>mechanized division could engage the foot armies of the KW at will and at
an
>unending pace.
On the other hand, modern tactics involve striking at enemy bases, like ammo
dumps, command and control, airfields and so forth, a tactic which would be
ineffective. Ok, your army may be able to occupy Darokin City, but then
what? Mages and adventurer tactics is effectively a form of guerrilla
warfare - a very lethal form, unique to a fantasy setting. Something which
modern armies have always found very difficult to counter. And the
guerrillas of the modern world lack magic, which would be far superior to
tech for operations of this type, IMHO.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:28:02 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
In a message dated 1998-09-12 20:30:34 Eastern Daylight Time,
JamugaKhan@gmx.net writes:
> BTW, besides being rivals what kind of relationship both countries have? Do
> Minrothaddan ships transport Darokinian goods?
Yes, and vice versa -- as long as each side "knows its place". But if either
nation ever decided to challenge the supremacy of the other in its own realm,
the resulting trade war could get quite ugly.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:24:46 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>External, methinks, or wouldn't they be mystics(Hmm? Are mystics the
>D&D equivalent of psionicists?)
Not really, i think Mystics have turned into Monks. I dont think that
Mystara actually has anything like AD+D psionics.
Pity :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:30:31 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - THE BEAGLE
>ahhh the ISD 17000 design flaws waiting to be exploited
:)
Only because Lira Wessex isn't as good a designer as her father. Besides,
Rebel SpecForces slang is a little - optimistic...
Interesting : Very Dangerous
Ten Percenter : A mission carrying a 10% survival chance. An "easy"
mission.
:)
Sorry, way off topic here.
(BTW - did you know there is a Jedi Knight kit in the Net Book of Psionics?)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:33:40 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> IMO, as far as the general "MagiGenetic" topography of Mystara as a whole,
>I would suspect that it is basically uniform throughout Mystara outside
>Alphatia and the "hot spot" of Glantri.
Although G:KoM seems to imply (I know, I shouldnt refer to this tome :) that
the NoS is perhaps responsible for that. I personally think the Progeny may
be a side effect of having a city built on top of a magical nuke reactor :)
Otherwise somewhere like Karameikos probably had a history better suited
than Glantri to have human/faerie crossbreeds...
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:41:57 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
>Why not? You`re allowing hi-tech to have punch through munitions so how
>come magic has more restraint? Anyway in a war of this magnitude dirty
>pool is what the losers usewd not the winners remember it`s the
>winnerswho write the histories of how it `really` happened. BTW whilst
>this is fun isn`t it time we agreed that Top of range from bothmagic and
>tech cause much more collateral damage than actual harm to opposition.
Hmm. That reminds me of those wierd Piers Anthony Incarnations of
Immortality books. He had an alternate Earth with both magic and parallel
tech, so you had aircraft and flying carpets. At one point he mentions
nuclear weapons and summoning the Duke of Hell, as magic/technologies means
of Indiscriminate Mass Destruction...
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 04:27:42 EDT
From: Kaviyd@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
In a message dated 1998-09-13 12:58:57 Eastern Daylight Time,
Valerya@webtv.net writes:
> What I DO mean is this: has anyone thought of an imaginative way to test
> children for this ability? Has anyone thought of "wishing" an NPC to
> have magical ability (Ericall, Tredorian, etc.)? I am not dealing with
> mechanics for PCs, but with setting questions for the campaign.
One method that I used was a roll based on race and intelligence as follows:
For a human or gnome: Roll d% + Int - 98. If the result is 3+, the character
has the same magical talent as a player character of that intelligence.
For a half-elf: Roll 2d20 + Int - 39. Interpret result as for human.
For an elf: Roll d6 + Int - 7. Note that in this case the result is always
3+, so
the character will always have magical talent.
For a dwarf or halfling: Don't bother rolling -- the character has no magical
talent
whatsoever, regardless of intelligence.
Player character wizards may be assumed to have made the best possible rolls
given their race and intelligence. NPCs and non-wizards should make the
indicated rolls.
As for wishes: A Wish spell should grant a reroll of magical talent. Note
that since
there is no guarantee of getting a good roll on subsequent attempts, few high
level
wizards will "waste" their wishes by using them for this purpose -- but player
characters who start out as "mundaners" and who are fortunate enough to gain
items that grant wishes may just get lucky.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:15:04 CEST
From: "Herve Musseau" <herve@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
<< I don't see any reason why the mages would even think of working
together. On the whole, the rulers of Alphatia at best are wary of each
other, and at worst, act like clones of di Malapietra. Combined, they
are a mistrustful and petty lot. They have to be, because in these
politics, if you're not cheating someone, you're being cheated. "He who
strives for goodness in all his deeds is certain to come to ruin, for
their are so many men who are not good." Machievelli.
All spellcasters are aristocracy automatically, and as soon as they
get some money they're nobility. Why on Earth would an existing
aristocrat want to do some research so that there can be more
aristocrats? Power corrupts, and the rulers stop seeking the welfare of
the country, and focus entirely on themselves. To use Darokin as an
example (not the rendering I've been giving it lately:)), since the
economy is better when the public has a lot of money (to spend on goods;
look at America, the consumer nation), the merchants would do well to
give their money to less-fortunate. That doesn't exactly happen, and the
guild heads are well aware that there is only so much money to go
around: what the new "aristocarcy" gets is what I can't, thus deriving
me of potential profit.>>
Well, this PoV is debatable.
Alphatians wizards can see it that way, with priviledge of nobility
being a limited resource that others would take from their part of the
pie, or they can reason the other way round: If I wish (or whatever
spell) someone into a wizard, then he'll be thankful to me, support me
at every turn, help me fight my enemies, etc. Just like why you take an
apprentice, or have help others on occasion to have political allies
(return of favor).
Same as for Immortals: They can reason "Why bother sponsoring new
immortals? They will only steal from my follower base, and get a chunk
of my powerbase which will weaken me". Yet they do sponsor new Imortals.
Why? Because the new immortals are indebted to their supporters. Because
they can call on them if they need to.
For merchants, this can also hold to some degree. It can be good to
loose some money in the short term to get some trading partners that you
hope will be your captive market of sorts.
Thus, unless you are so powerful that you can be hegemonic (and in that
case, don't sponsor others that could only challenge your rule), ie
you're not the ultimate god, Elminster, the king of the world, Bill
Gates, etc, then making allies (which implies giving something to them
that you could take for yourself) is generally more rewarding in the
long run.
PS: But I don't like /wishing/ people to be wizards in the first place.
_____________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <herve@hotmail.com>
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8932/
Almanac page: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/9037/
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:35:34 +0200 (METDST)
From: Agathokles <piu2014@ccrd200.cdc.polimi.it>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Demogorgon Background
I'm new too, and I have this info about Demogorgon (mostly from
Planescape setting):
Demogorgon may be one of the gods who pose as immortals (as are sometimes
considered those of the Norse pantheon).
So she can be a self-sponsored immortal.
In Planescape list of gods by plane, Demogorgon is said to be an
ixitxachitl goddess, so, as a mortal, she could belong tho that race.
>From the Gurrash lizard kin in SC, it is only known that she is "the
reptilian queen of water and evil".
So possibly she got involved in Mystara in Blackmoorian age, supporting
the most aggressive amphibian/reptilian races (or maybe the Temple of
the Frog!).
What do you think about it?
Gianpaolo Agosta
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:18:27 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
At 18.51 13/09/98 -0500, James Ruhland wrote:
>Except that if their is no open hatch for the mage to cast the spell into,
>then it won't work very well, IMO; the spell will just explode on the
>outside of the tank. Neither the AD&D nor the D&D Fireball spells have much
>barrier-penetrating capacity.
The mage can open the hatch from the outside, can't he?
>> 1 man for 1 tank it's a very good ratio IMO.
>>
>A guy who can teleport is at least 9th level, and a guy who is 9th level
>*and* willing to sacrifice his life, these are somewhat rare "assets".
> A 9th level mage should be able to think of a better way, in my opinion.
True, but look a this.
A 9th level mage can teleport someone else (a low level mage, for example)
on top of the tank.
The low level mage will disable the external MGs, then he'll open the hatch
(using knock, if needed) and finally he'll cast sleep, hold person or
something similar on the crew.
On second thought we don't even need a low-level mage. A thief would be
enough to disable external weapons, open the hatch and throw inside the
tanks a delayed blast fireball "gem" (or a vial with some sort of sleeping
gas).
If he's unable to open the hatch the thief (or mage) can try to "ride" the
cannon barrel and throw the gem inside.
Wizard locking the hatch would be nice too. If the crew is trapped inside
they'll starve to death sooner or later.
Another idea. A high-level mage teleports himself on top of the tank, than
casts "teleport any object" to move the tank somewhere else (top of a
mountain, bottom of the sea, mid-air...). Just one problem: maybe a tank is
too heavy or to big.
These are just a few option. Others may involve summoning elementals,
polymorphing the tank into something else...
Even a druid can seriously harm a tank, provided we're in the right
environnement. He can move near the tank using "pass plant" and then cast
"call lighting" or "creeping doom" to hurt either the tank or the crew.
You know, magic gives us plenty of opportunities... and I've not considered
yet the Glantrian Secret Crafts.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:51:22 -0400
From: Daly <jdaly@friend.ly.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Hm, that is something I have thought of too. Mystics are obviously
internal...chi and all that...
But heck, who is to say they don't get the power from the ground, the
sky, all living things...sorta like the force...
I see no reason not to have power come from basically the same place,
though with twists.
For instance, if power comes from without, one can assume there are
other places of power, like the NoS and the Radiance and ancient altars
and whatnot, that one can draw from. But all, clerics and mystics and
mages, get their power from outside their bodies.
Personally I prefer some kind of blanket statement, albeit with variety
of detail...
What do you think?
Andrew Toth wrote:
>
> At 08:48 AM 9/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >I mentioned before how the system we use has 12 stats instead of 6. The
> >one for priests and paladins is "Zeal". The higher the zeal the more
> >power you are granted by your diety. But here's the kicker: Zeal
> >represents the amount of attention your diety gives you. It does not
> >represent anything innate.
> >
> >I just thought this was an interesting way to word it.
> >
> >So how do we want to have magic work for priests? Do Immortals directly
> >grant powers? Do they sort of give a "one time license" to do miracles
> >as long as no particularly bad sins are done?
> >
> >Is clerical magic internal or external?
>
> External, methinks, or wouldn't they be mystics(Hmm? Are mystics the
> D&D equivalent of psionicists?)
>
> Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant
> Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==-
> |/
> "A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully"
>
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:36:46 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= <hoc@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Rob wrote:
> Although G:KoM seems to imply (I know, I shouldnt refer to this tome :) that
> the NoS is perhaps responsible for that. I personally think the Progeny may
> be a side effect of having a city built on top of a magical nuke reactor :)
> Otherwise somewhere like Karameikos probably had a history better suited
> than Glantri to have human/faerie crossbreeds...
Who says there aren´t human faerie crossbreeds in Karameikos? :)
Actually, one of the PCs in my campaign was half-faerie. Unfortunately he
died after a violent encounter with a Hill Giant..
Håvard
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:55:01 -0500 (EST)
From: rdroe@iupui.edu
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
I'm not really sure if this is what you are looking for or not,
and i'll probably be flamed for this, but here I go.
The AD&D accessory College of Wizardry has an example of testing
for magical aptitude. The College holds a fair about every other year
where children ages 10-14 are invited along with their parents. The mages
put on shows to impress everybody and give away prizes. The mages watch
to select the children with the most interest. They then take the most
intrigued kids to a room where they use an enchanted spike called the
criterion needle. They then give the children a poke in the finger with
the needle. The children who feel nothing are dismissed as being
insensitive to the subtle magical currents in the needle. Those who cry
(out like little babies in pain) are sensitive to the magic in the needle
and may have what it takes to be mages. Maybe 5% of the children tested
will have what it takes to become a mage.
The wish spell. I agree with everybody else, but maybe a wish
spell could make the wisher a wild talent. Could have a wierd side effect
or twist like most wish spells.
Sick methods of testing for magical ability. Instead of pricking
the people with magical needles. The mages cut off one of their limbs and
tell them that if they learn this read magic spell they just might be able
to use this scroll of regeneration.
That's enough for me.
Robert D'eath Roe
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:53:06 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>
> Changing children into something isn't as trivial as it has been made in
> this discussion (allright I missed some of this, so maybe somebody
> allready pointed this out). The real problem isn't technical, its moral.
>
Alphatians aren't known for their great moral sense, and I would refer the
author to current IRL genetic reasurch/"gene therapy" etc.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:03:24 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> wizards will "waste" their wishes by using them for this purpose --
>
Well, in the OD&D system, their is no real "cost" to using a Wish (the
caster doesn't age or anything), so if a D&D 36th level mage gets up one
morning, memorizes 9 wish spells, and casts them all, it doesn't much
matter if half of them are cast to no effect.
Just another day at the office, and the mage can cast 9 more tommorrow.
8-)
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:12:02 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
The below are all much better ideas, and IMO getting more along the lines
of what an adventurer-type party should be doing to disable such a monster.
Some of these may not work (after all, the tank's crew isn't inert, and
some of these represent how IRL infantry try to use grenades et al on tank
crews in close combat, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.)
Now we're getting away from a simple exchange of firepower though to
actual creative tactics, and that's good. 8-)
>
> True, but look a this.
> A 9th level mage can teleport someone else (a low level mage, for
example)
> on top of the tank.
> The low level mage will disable the external MGs, then he'll open the
hatch
> (using knock, if needed) and finally he'll cast sleep, hold person or
> something similar on the crew.
>
> On second thought we don't even need a low-level mage. A thief would be
> enough to disable external weapons, open the hatch and throw inside the
> tanks a delayed blast fireball "gem" (or a vial with some sort of
sleeping
> gas).
>
> If he's unable to open the hatch the thief (or mage) can try to "ride"
the
> cannon barrel and throw the gem inside.
> Wizard locking the hatch would be nice too. If the crew is trapped inside
> they'll starve to death sooner or later.
>
> Another idea. A high-level mage teleports himself on top of the tank,
than
> casts "teleport any object" to move the tank somewhere else (top of a
> mountain, bottom of the sea, mid-air...). Just one problem: maybe a tank
is
> too heavy or to big.
>
> These are just a few option. Others may involve summoning elementals,
> polymorphing the tank into something else...
> Even a druid can seriously harm a tank, provided we're in the right
> environnement. He can move near the tank using "pass plant" and then cast
> "call lighting" or "creeping doom" to hurt either the tank or the crew.
> You know, magic gives us plenty of opportunities... and I've not
considered
> yet the Glantrian Secret Crafts.
>
>
>
>
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:27:22 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Changing children into something isn't as trivial as it has been made
in this discussion (allright I missed some of this, so maybe somebody
allready pointed this out). The real problem isn't technical, its moral.
After all, if You really wanted a boy, You could just pay enough money
(and the Alphatians would be millionairs) and the doctors would make her
him.
>
>I think that atleast those in the list who have children agree with me,
that no mother would give away the original child to get one with the
right stats. You just continue trying.
While I agree with your assesment of the morality of the issue (not
entirely; in most of Mystara, including Alphatia, there is no benefit to
being one sex or the other, while their is immense gain to be a mage),
unfortunately, there are most certainly mothers who would: recently in
the US, several couples entered into an experiment in an attempt to
control the sex of the child before birth. Polls indicate that the
public is still undecided about the use of genetic engineering in
fetuses to augment or modify genetic characteristics. It's almost a
stereotype that to the rich and powerful, morality means nothing
compared to personal gain, but such a sterotype would have some basis
("A lot!", says Mr. Plebian) in reality.
To complicate matters further, if a gene is responsible for magical
ability, then testing (and augmentation, is possible) can and would be
done prior to birth: the genes don't change at pregnency, or six or
fifteen years of age.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:42:05 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
>Thus, unless you are so powerful that you can be hegemonic (and in that
case, don't sponsor others that could only challenge your rule), ie
you're not the ultimate god, Elminster, the king of the world, Bill
Gates, etc, then making allies (which implies giving something to them
that you could take for yourself) is generally more rewarding in the
long run.
I think most Alphatian power mages, those capable of casting wish,
probably do consider themselves to be Elminster, or better. Alphatian
politics is pretty dangerous, especially since any other mage can
challenge you to a duel. To get to the top, you must have sold a piece
of your soul; you're most likely jaded and cynical at best.
>PS: But I don't like /wishing/ people to be wizards in the first place.
Neither do I. Rereading the description of wish, I don't think it
actually says you can change class, just race. It also points out that
dwarves and halflings become fighters and elves become either fightes or
mages. I think it's sort of like polymorph other (which can turn you
into a mage, but first level), where you get the powers of what you
change into, but when you change back, they're gone.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:52:01 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Hm, that is something I have thought of too. Mystics are obviously
>internal...chi and all that...
>
>But heck, who is to say they don't get the power from the ground, the
>sky, all living things...sorta like the force...
The listing for mystic in the Master's DM book states that they
receive their power from themselves, consistent with the general
conception of chi. However...
Chi is in everything, and is everything. When you break a block of
concrete, you don't waste your time breaking the matter; that hurts.
Instead, break the board's chi. You will naturally restore chi, but you
can speed up the process by spending your time in places of great chi,
or life, like a forest or jungle pool or something like that. In this
sense, it is an external force that you modify and use internally.
However, as far as I am aware, it is not supposed to come from an
Immortal, like a cleric, and a mystic's powers are radically different
from a mages.
On another note, a 16th level mystic could work very well against
our beleaugered tank. With an impressive AC and an inhuman speed, not to
mention that if the mystic can hit creatures that can only be hit by +5
weapons or better, which includes Immortals, s/he could most certainly
inflict quite a good deal of damage on the tank. Blankout and gentle
touch would let her/him lie in wait, and when the general is killed with
a single touch, that ought to do problems for morale.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:52:10 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Hm, that is something I have thought of too. Mystics are obviously
>internal...chi and all that...
>
>But heck, who is to say they don't get the power from the ground, the
>sky, all living things...sorta like the force...
The listing for mystic in the Master's DM book states that they
receive their power from themselves, consistent with the general
conception of chi. However...
Chi is in everything, and is everything. When you break a block of
concrete, you don't waste your time breaking the matter; that hurts.
Instead, break the board's chi. You will naturally restore chi, but you
can speed up the process by spending your time in places of great chi,
or life, like a forest or jungle pool or something like that. In this
sense, it is an external force that you modify and use internally.
However, as far as I am aware, it is not supposed to come from an
Immortal, like a cleric, and a mystic's powers are radically different
from a mages.
On another note, a 16th level mystic could work very well against
our beleaugered tank. With an impressive AC and an inhuman speed, not to
mention that if the mystic can hit creatures that can only be hit by +5
weapons or better, which includes Immortals, s/he could most certainly
inflict quite a good deal of damage on the tank. Blankout would let
her/him lie in wait, and when the general is killed with a single touch,
that ought to do problems for morale.
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #628
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mystara-digest Tuesday, September 15 1998 Volume 1997 : Number 629
Mystara is a trademark of TSR Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuf
Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability
[MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]<Off Topic> - THE BEAGLE
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule (was: Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations)
Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
[MYSTARA] - Herath, Magic, Psionics and Gene Splicing :)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
[MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest?
Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic
Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:58:33 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> Well, in the OD&D system, their is no real "cost" to using a Wish (the
caster doesn't age or anything), so if a D&D 36th level mage gets up one
morning, memorizes 9 wish spells, and casts them all, it doesn't much
>matter if half of them are cast to no effect.
> Just another day at the office, and the mage can cast 9 more
tommorrow.
See, what I don't understand about all the oD&D mages who can cast
wish is, why don't they all have 18 in all of their scores? There is no
cost, and you have all week to cast all of the wishes you need to go up
to the next number. Of course, most mages are typically spurious of the
"baser" characteristics (ie, anything not Int), and since to cast wish,
they've already got 18 Int, perhaps they're just being arrogant.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:04:03 -0700
From: harold@grid.wizards.com (Harold Johnson)
Subject: Re(2): [MYSTARA] - Offline access to the Mystara Message Board, Princess Ark stuf
mystara-l@MPGN.COM,Earth writes:
>In a message dated 9/11/98 10:32:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>harold@grid.wizards.com writes:
>
><< The response came from Sparky with Online, but was the result of a
> discussion with legal, marketing, and Bill Slaviscek. Perhaps one of the
> reasons deals with a product proposal on the table to release some of the
> DRAGON back issue articles on a CD-Rom. I don't think the response is
> immutable, but for now TSR and DRAGON have requested that this not be
>made
> available until further review and planning take place. >>
>
>
>Question/proposal for you Harold: have they considered rereleasing all of
>the
>Princess Ark articles lumped together on CD-Rom?
>
>-Mage
>(BTW I live in the greater Seattle area, Everett specifically, and if you
>ever
>need someone to come to WOTC for moral support or to help pitch
>something I'd
>be willing to lend a hand)
>
Yes, they are considering that very thing, but it could still be a year
or more away. Thanks for the offer to help out. I'll keep you in mind, but
you will have to give me a real name rather than your nom-de-plume.
>
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Francis Larivière <larf01@gel.usherb.ca>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
> I dont think that
> Mystara actually has anything like AD+D psionics.
>
I've always wondered about that (by the way, if I horribly miss spell
some words, I'm sorry. I usualy write in french). I recall it is
writen in the mystarian monstrous compandium (AD&D) that dragons specific
to the mystara setting don't have psionic habilities, but IIRC nothing is
mention about the other dragons, or any other monster type.
Anyone knows more about that?
Francis.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:31:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Re: Magical Ability
Thank you, Great Khan, really. Friends? :-)
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:21:46 -0400
From: Andrew Toth <beyowulf@pipeline.com>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Re: [MYSTARA]<Off Topic> - THE BEAGLE
At 07:30 AM 9/15/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Sorry, way off topic here.
>
>(BTW - did you know there is a Jedi Knight kit in the Net Book of Psionics?)
>
- -I- noticed...
<shudder>
Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant
Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==-
|/
"A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully"
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:36:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian
Good point, Nicholas--I'm sure that the Hulean clerics would especially
like that "Embezzle" spell!
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:46:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
Nicholas, I think maybe by the time you have read this, you might have
gotten your ego to fit back in your skull...:-)...Kidding!...It was
great. And I even think your geography was okay, although I think at one
point you had Hule entering Darokin from the east and the SE from the
west :-) Some strange planetary axis shift???
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:37:03 -0400
From: Andrew Toth <beyowulf@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
At 08:51 AM 9/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hm, that is something I have thought of too. Mystics are obviously
>internal...chi and all that...
>
>But heck, who is to say they don't get the power from the ground, the
>sky, all living things...sorta like the force...
But doesn't mystics power come from within, by definition. I've always
seen the mage, as having the talent for manipulating natural forces, not
the mystic.
>I see no reason not to have power come from basically the same place,
>though with twists.
But then the mystic really isn't a mystic, but some strange version of
a magic-user.
>For instance, if power comes from without, one can assume there are
>other places of power, like the NoS and the Radiance and ancient altars
>and whatnot, that one can draw from. But all, clerics and mystics and
>mages, get their power from outside their bodies.
I don't think that it should be like that. They should all be separate,
as there are times when you would want clerics and mystics, but not mages,
such as in magically dead-zones. Or as mentiones, when one travels back
in time and your immortal hasn't been sponsored yet, mages and mystics
would be preferable. I think it is preferable to keep them separate.
>Personally I prefer some kind of blanket statement, albeit with variety
>of detail...
>
>What do you think?
>
I don't think that it should be like that. They should all be separate,
as there are times when you would want clerics and mystics, but not mages,
such as in magically dead-zones. Or as mentiones, when one travels back
in time and your immortal hasn't been sponsored yet, mages and mystics
would be preferable. I think it is preferable to keep them separate.
Beyowulf - Jedi Merchant
Steely Blue Dragon -==UDIC==-
|/
"A wise mercenary picks his battles carefully"
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:49:53 -0500
From: "James Ruhland" <jruhlconob@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
>
> Anyone knows more about that?
>
Well, in some of my campaigns we've introduced psionics into Mystara, and
I'm one of the (possibly few) people who likes psionics, but they are
really "foreign" to the setting. There are numerous brain-eating Mystaran
monsters with mind-scrambling powers, but none of them psionic per se, and
IMO fiting psionics into the Mystaran system is somewhat hard.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:56:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Valerya@webtv.net (Jennifer Favia Guerra)
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations
Certainly I was not trying to draw any inferences between the religion
of Bozdogan and that of Islam. I was thinking, in equating Hule with RW
Turkey that you could use it as a reference point, not a total
transcription. Another example of that which immediately come to mind is
that of Thyatis. You can easily say that thyatis is based either
(depending on your opinin and the evidence you cite) on Rome or
Byzantium, but you don't see a direct correlation between the KW and RW
religions.
Oh, and Adam--thanks! Actually, I am planning to seek a PhD in history.
Jenn
valerya@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/4270/
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:43:03 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
> That is one of my points: Alphatia must be hard enough as it is to
>become Immortal in the sphere of Energy (remove all mages within some
>large radius, which in Alphatia more than likely means several potential
>Council members) than to create even more magic-users.
>
You don't actually have to remove them, you just have to be acknowledged their superior in magical ability (not that it's any easier in Alphatia :)
And it all depends on where you construct your abode. Not too many wizards around the polar icecap, I guess :)
******************
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aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Blue Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:55:17 +0300
From: "Aleksei Andrievski" <solmyr@kolumbus.fi>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Hule (was: Darokinian "city states" and unification with dissimilar nations)
>Of course there is a big assumption made here, that
>Hule is Mystaran Turkey. I read your deduction on
Actually I think Hule is *somewhat* based on Turkey, but not extensively. It has Turkish names (most of them, anyway; 'Hosadus' isn't really Turkish). I think Bruce Heard was the author who first developed the Turkish connection in his PA articles. Of course, Ottoman Turks were often Not Nice Guys, but Hule is more of a blend of various fundamentalist religious cultures (e.g. ayatollah-governed Iran; I wonder if also the Taleban could provide some inspiration for the life in Hule :)
Oh, and re: "Mystaran Allah", I think Al-Kalim fills that role.
******************
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solmyr@kolumbus.fi
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:47:35 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
> I recall it is writen in the mystarian monstrous compandium (AD&D)
that dragons specific to the mystara setting don't have psionic
habilities, but IIRC nothing is mention about the other dragons, or any
other monster type.
Hei, youare Angliz iz jast fien.
In the Red Steel/Savage Coast material, they do mention that
various races can be psionic, but give absolutely no other information,
like kits, how they fit in the the cultures or inheiritors, et c.. It
seems as though it was added as an afterthought, so all those people
with the Complete Psionics Handbook wouldn't feel left out. As far as I
can recall, none of the Princess Ark articles mentioned any psionics,
which is consistent with their lack of existance in D&D.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:53:22 PDT
From: "Nicholas Hudson" <dr_bombastic@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - World-spanning Trade
And I even think your geography was okay, although I think at one
>point you had Hule entering Darokin from the east and the SE from the
>west :-) Some strange planetary axis shift???
Oh, I uhhh, er... I forgot to tell you: I'm writing from Nithia in
the Hollow World. You upsiders and your messed-up maps!
"In the beginning, there was darkness, but before there was
darkness, there was Frog" - St. Stephen
Nicholas Hudson
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:34:33 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>I just thought to give You something to think about...
> Some were tallking about using wish to give the boy ability to use
>spells. Well I'm sure its possible. But he wont be the same boy anymore.
>Suppose You would have allways wanted a boy, but You only get girl-babyes.
>Would You use wish to change one of them into boy? what happens,
>kind of, is that the original child is taken behind the curtain, and the
>same baybe or a new one is bring back, only now it's a mage...
Medical ethics for magic :)
I wanted to make a talisman that protected the wearer from wild surges, and
was told by the DM that I would need a wild mages brain. Being a wild mage
myself, I considered cloning myself to obtain a wild mages brain.
But I thought - thats just sick. I'm not dissecting my own brain!
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:57:29 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
> 1) agree that the Alph. mages are totally unlikely to cooperate on this
>kind of endevour (IMO either enforcing a "ban" on such reasurch or in
>conducting it)
Well, they ARE chaotic. Each man for himself - anyone who finds a cure
could distibute it to his kids and set up a dynasty over the rest of the
more "genetically challenged" Alphatians would do it. Feather your own
nest, not society as a whole.
And become an Immortal of Time into the bargain!
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:32:03 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>I don't think that it should be like that. They should all be separate,
>as there are times when you would want clerics and mystics, but not mages,
>such as in magically dead-zones. Or as mentiones, when one travels back
>in time and your immortal hasn't been sponsored yet, mages and mystics
>would be preferable. I think it is preferable to keep them separate.
Each class has its own unique charm and its own slant on things. I use
psionicists instead of mystics, but they use the same principles at the end
of the day. No one denies that a mage and a cleric are radically different,
mystics should be considered yet another variation.
Besides, they are cool! And they are not some shadow of a mage.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:46:19 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Herath, Magic, Psionics and Gene Splicing :)
>So perhaps the problem is a very complex genetic one which Mystarans
>cannot picture, and therefore cannot solve through the relatively simple
>application of a wish.
<snip>
>So while they can test for it, they cannot understand the way the
>genetic code works, or even understand genetic code to begin with!
>
>So is Mystaran magic internal or external? Does a Mystaran mage reach
>within himself or without?
Good stuff.
I must say that genetics has been mentioned in canon once already - the
Identify Species spell in the Red Steel book (it says that nonaranea dont
know enough about aranean genetics to make a spell like Identify Species
that would be effective in spotting Herathian araneas).
IMC Herath uses lots of "biological" magic. After all, araneas seem to be
magical versions of geneticists, creating various races and even modifying
their own bodies. And they cerainly have the power, as apparently they
defeated the Great One in the wallara/aranea war.
As an aside on the final point, I also say that aranea are the only race on
the planet for which psionics is reasonably common (as common as magic is
amongst humans). Given this split personality thing, their strength of will
etc. it seemed appropriate. And as psionics is all about studying the inner
self, maybe this is the ability that is needed (Psychometabolism).
Perhaps a certain few Herathians research spells like Identify Species using
such a combination of magic and psychometabolism?
Incidentally, noting Talons of Night, planar spiders are not mages.
However, their abilities (plane shifting) could well be psionic in nature
(much like mind flayers plane shifting is in fact psionic, tho it wasnt
described as such in the Monstrous Compendium in case psionics isnt used
IYC). Also, planar spiders were dominant over aranean peons in Talons of
Night. However, there are no planar spider in Herath (AFAIK).
Perhaps the Herathian araneas modified their own race to enable them to be
better mages, and so kick out their planar spider masters? If they did, it
would be ancient prehistory by now, most likely predating Blackmoor...
Of course, you could substitute the word "psionics" in the above screed for
"necromancy", as you prefer :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:54:57 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability & Alphatian society
> Hmmmn. . .I stupidly deleted or misplaced a message that I wanted to
>reply to, and it had to do with reasurch (or lack theirof) aimed at
>"solving" the problem of the declining proportion of spellcasters in
>Alphatia.
> My opinion was (and remains) that efforts would have been made to reasurch
>a solution (perhaps misguided, but at anyhow all failures up to this
>point), while someone else (grrr. .. sorry, forgetting who) was of the
>opinion that the current rulers (spellcasters) would oppose such efforts
>because it would weaken their status as a select few.
Hmm.
:)
Ive heard in an old psionics debate on the MMl (a topic that i stir up every
so often :) that a good reason that psionics is rare on Mystara is because
the Men in Black from Alphatia stamp it out as been a threat to their
magical empire (Personally, as it is often said that magic and psionics
doesnt mix, I would say that although those of Alphatian race are highly
attuned to magic they are about as psionic as a wet teabag :)
What irony if psychometabolism did offer a cure to the fearsome Alphatian
disease of MSD (Magic Sapping Syndrome).
Who knows - maybe Alphatian beef is contaminated :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:14:41 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
>Who else do you think would be gaining in magical knowledge as Alphatia
>declines (NOT Glantri)? Are you working post-WotI?--if so, have you
>established a magical school anywhere besides Karameikos?
Herath, of course! Mystara has only three canon Magical Kingdoms, and
Herath is the little known one of the three.
Also, being spiders, and surrounded by enemies, and being insectoidally
pragmaric (?!?) i guess that the Herathians would be less prone to
backstabbing (biting?) and more inclined to cooperate for the survival of
the race.
(I always considered Herath to have communist/socialist tendencies, in a
sort of quasi hive mind society. Despite it being a monarchy and all :)
And despite the fact that IRL spiders are particularly bad at getting on
with one another.)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:23:01 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> See, what I don't understand about all the oD&D mages who can cast
>wish is, why don't they all have 18 in all of their scores? There is no
>cost, and you have all week to cast all of the wishes you need to go up
>to the next number. Of course, most mages are typically spurious of the
>"baser" characteristics (ie, anything not Int), and since to cast wish,
>they've already got 18 Int, perhaps they're just being arrogant.
Or, alternatively, dumb. Given the cut throat life involved in getting to
Archmage status, i guess these guys will want to take every advantage they
can get. I know any adventuring archmage worth his spellbook would have at
least Con 18 and Dex 18, if not strength.
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:09:59 +0100
From: "Rob" <rmunch@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - psionocs
>I've always wondered about that (by the way, if I horribly miss spell
>some words, I'm sorry. I usualy write in french). I recall it is
>writen in the mystarian monstrous compandium (AD&D) that dragons specific
>to the mystara setting don't have psionic habilities, but IIRC nothing is
>mention about the other dragons, or any other monster type.
>
>Anyone knows more about that?
Gem dragons on worlds other than Mystara are psionic, rather than magical (I
just met one in a game last nite, a sapphire dragon called Blue Corundum who
happened to be a 20th level psionicist.)
I dont think that psionics is at all natural in the Mystaran setting. The
place is just reeking of magic, and the all consuming study of magic means
that the possible study of psionics would be neglected. And perhaps even
discouraged by the Powers that Be (read: Alphatia). OTOH, i think Mystics
could well be considered D+D psionicists although they are more like 1st ed
monks.
In addition, I think that psionics, more so than magic, is something that
you have as a racial trait (metahumans, and all that evolution stuff :). In
AD+D "gypsies" are unusually psionically powerful - perhaps the Traladarans
of Mystara are potential psionicist raw material, but lacking in tutelage
(perhaps the Sindhis as well, and perhaps Gareth will change the "lack of
tutelage" thing). Or perhaps the Boldavians even more so, as they have been
isolated for all this time, with the original Traladaran genes being more
pure. (the old idea of a psionic vampire hunter springs to mind).
(Hmm - this purity of strain thing makes me think about Alphatian
concentration camps for some reason re. their own magical abilities. But
they arent that bad - are they?)
Red Steel mentions psionics quite a bit in the character generation chapter
(tho i note that the online version has since omitted it). IMC psionics is
around, albeit rarely, and limited almost entirely to the Savage Coast.
Wild talents sometimes arise as a result of the Red Curse, rarely (around 1%
of those with legacies) and often mistaken for a genuine Legacy. Ive
already sent a post re. the Herathians, so I wont reiterate my speech on how
powerful my beluvved race is :) :) :)
Cheerz
Rob
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:58:21 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: [MYSTARA] - Who needs a bulletproof vest?
Someone (forgot who) in the Technomagic discussion said that bullets are
just missile weapon, so what about using a Displacer Cloak.
>From the RC description of a Displacer Cloak: "(...) most missile will
automatically miss".
A mage with such a cloak has a high chance of getting into spell range
without being hit... if we consider bullets as standard missiles.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:51:52 +0200
From: Fabrizio Paoli <brizio@lunet.it>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Tech vs. magic
At 00.28 15/09/98 EDT, Alex295@aol.com wrote:
>
>sorry but the .50 cal is a heavy machine gun. it is classed as a dual purpose
>mg for both ground and air targets.
<snip>
Yes, I knew almost all of that, but it was not my point.
I try to explain it again, though english doesn't help me...
My point was that a MG can easily hit several approaching ground targets,
you just need to pivot the MG and to cover a 360° arc, provided you have
unhindered LoS all round the MG.
OTOH shooting at air targets it's another matter entirely. You have to aim
at a single target and you cannot fire at ground troops at the same time.
So IMO the .50 cal cannot stop a Mystaran army approaching from both air
and ground.
The problem is that those weapons are 2-dimensional weapons, because the
human mind tends to fight in 2-D, rather than 3-D. Even aircraft
dogfighting tactics are 2-dimensional.
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:55:28 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Technology/Technomancy/Magic (LONG!)
> Bad choice Jamuga. When dealing with tanks, it's much better to use an
A-10 :-
O.k., do you accept a position as an advisor of the Mighty Khan for
ant-tank combat?
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:20:30 +0200
From: "Jamuga Khan" <JamugaKhan@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] - Magical Ability
> It was a good argument indeed. I might rule on it this way, and let me
> know what you think...perhaps a wish can change ones race, but not
> class. That is, one can wish to be an elf (then the wish takes care of
> all the genetic stuff itself) but one cannot wish to suddenly gain the
> genetic trait and knowledge, and skill...
>
> Hmm. I dunno. This is a tough one.
>
> Perhaps such a wish would change everything about a person. Perhaps
> this is why an adventurer might choose to go from wizard to fighter, but
> a noble of Alphatia would not wish to lose his face along with...
>
> Geez, that isn't much of an explanation either...
>
Now I remember that in IOC once a paladin was reincarnated as a magic-user.
This of course was to accomodate the group, as we had lost the player of
the former magic-user, and the paladin's player were not too content with
his character. On character level we can see this as a possible but very
rare evnt when using this spell.
Jamuga Khan
"Hear and obey, because the Mighty Khan's word is law."
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End of mystara-digest V1997 #629
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