=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:58:02 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "G.P. Agosta" <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Traldar of the City-States question
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Eric Anondson wrote:
> In the Savage Coast accessories entry of a brief history, here is the
> excerpt:
>
> "FIVE CENTURIES PAST: About 560 years ago, an influx of Traldar arrived,
> possibly fleeing religious persecution in their homeland."
>
>
> Has anyone done anything with this, alleged "religious persecution"? I'm a
> novice in Known World histories, but is there any known basis in Traldar
> cultural history to piece together a religious conflict that would cause a
> portion of the population to move thousands of miles away, across the
> otherside of the Great Waste?
The main conflict in the Church of Traladara is on the return of the
Golden Age. Some priests will trying be more aggressively to get it
soon, while others would wait, and remain inactive. Fanatic cults, like
the Cult of Halav, will eventually arise as someone is considered Halav,
returned back to bring the Golden Age.
Some of this cults may only be composed by a few fools, but others may
get the support of politically powerful families, wishing to increase
their power at the expenses of the more prominent clans (which will side
with the "conservative" clergy).
When the tensions erupt, the losing faction would be ousted, originating
a new migration.
--
Giampaolo Agosta
agathokles@libero.it
agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:18:08 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Traldar of the City-States question
In-Reply-To: <B6499F48.16E5%xen@visi.com>
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At 11/28/00 05:43 PM, Eric Anondson wrote:
>In the Savage Coast accessories entry of a brief history, here is the
>excerpt:
>
>"FIVE CENTURIES PAST: About 560 years ago, an influx of Traldar arrived,
>possibly fleeing religious persecution in their homeland."
Is that 560 years from 1000AC or a different date? I don't have those
accessories downloaded.
>Has anyone done anything with this, alleged "religious persecution"? I'm a
>novice in Known World histories, but is there any known basis in Traldar
>cultural history to piece together a religious conflict that would cause a
>portion of the population to move thousands of miles away, across the
>otherside of the Great Waste?
I don't know of a persecution but if I've understood the date correctly
this is in the era of Traladara's petty kings and after Marilenev started
to grow. And probably when they had just began interacting with others
(human and demihuman). I would guess the religious problems came in when
Halav and company began replacing whatever Immortals the Traldar had
worshipped. Don't think there are any given though. Another hole in the
Traladaran history.
-Tim
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:57:51 -0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: jason o'brien <jobo@EIRCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Traldar of the City-States question
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> I don't know of a persecution but if I've understood the date correctly
> this is in the era of Traladara's petty kings and after Marilenev started
> to grow. And probably when they had just began interacting with others
> (human and demihuman). I would guess the religious problems came in when
> Halav and company began replacing whatever Immortals the Traldar had
> worshipped. Don't think there are any given though. Another hole in the
> Traladaran history.
>
the only pre halav&co traldar immortal i know of is chardastes, he now seems
to be an ally of theirs but maybe when they first started there was some
conflict?
mortus.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:42:27 -0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" <vini@ENGINEER.COM>
Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment
Subject: [Fwd: [naorelha] =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1?= era hora]
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If we vote for DL - not Mystara, that's true, but it's a world... OK
;-) - Bland Guardian will make a song about it and include it in the
next - close - album.
Uh... we could vote for Mystara, of course, but "Nordic Mythology" is
first, followed closely by Dragonlance. So... it depends on us. We do
not have enough votes to put Mystara on the top.
For you guys who know their albums, their best cover - always RPG - is
the one that is a study of that from "Tales of the Lance".
Anyway, remember the Music suited for RPG thread from months ago?
Side-by-side to Manowar, BG is the more D&D band that exists.
The joke below about Tolkien is easily explained: they have REALLY been
using JRRT lately. Cool.
vini.
PS: I would like to vote "The Dragonlord of Mystara". But wil vote
"Dragonlance".
-------- Original Message --------
www.blind-guardian.com
Vote for your favourite theme!
O.k. you got me. After reading all your demands about lyrical issues you
would like us to deal with on the next album here is my
proposal:
Make your own choice. Place your favourite topic on the hompage and the
one made most will be used on one song of the album. This at
least should cover the interests of a small majority of people as taste
can be very different and as I am sure there will be a high
variety of different authors and themes chosen by you.
There is one single limitation: It has to be a fictional theme.
Everyone can only vote one time!!!.
So chose your favourite book and author and it might be the chosen
one...
Oh, another tough but somehow understable limitation: Tolkien shall be
excluded
Hansi
You have 2 more days to vote for your favourite lyrics theme. The voting
will end on Thursday 30th at midnight CET.
Hurry up
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:59:27 -0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" <vini@ENGINEER.COM>
Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment
Subject: More about the voting! Cool info.
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13 votes!!!
We can decide it!
vini.
http://www.blind-guardian.com/index2.html
http://www.blind-guardian.com/center.php3?page=lyrics/themes.php3
... says:
Results
1.Nordic Mythology - (200
votes)
2.Dragonlance by Weis and
Hickman - (187 votes)
3.Robert Jordan's Wheel of
Time series - (124 votes)
4.Shadowbane - (121 votes)
5.Nibelungenlied - (88 votes)
6.R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf
Saga - (87 votes)
7.Don Quijote - (60 votes)
8.Terry Pratchett's Discworld
- (52 votes)
9.Lovecraft's "Call of Cthulu"
- (46 votes)
10.Final Fantasy games - (43
votes)
11.Kamelot/Excalibur/Merlin -
(37 votes)
12.Stephen King's gunslinger,
Roland of Gilead - (23 votes)
13.Trojan War - (23 votes)
14.Michael Moorcok's Elric of
Melnibone - (20 votes)
15.Russian Pagan Mythology -
(20 votes)
16.Shannara Saga by Terry
Brooks - (16 votes)
17.A story about Belgarath -
(13 votes)
18.Roger Zelazny Amber Series
- (9 votes)
19.Riftwar Saga by Raymond E.
Feist - (8 votes)
20.The Ancient Bylina of Volga
- (4 votes)
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:12:52 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject: Re: More about the voting! Cool info.
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how and where shall we vote????
Thibault Sarlat.
ICQ 16622177.
homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi
Join me at: clenarius@hotmail.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Vinicius R. de Moraes <vini@ENGINEER.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 4:59 PM
Subject: [MYSTARA] More about the voting! Cool info.
> 13 votes!!!
> We can decide it!
> vini.
>
> http://www.blind-guardian.com/index2.html
>
> http://www.blind-guardian.com/center.php3?page=lyrics/themes.php3
>
> .. says:
>
> Results
>
> 1.Nordic Mythology - (200
> votes)
> 2.Dragonlance by Weis and
> Hickman - (187 votes)
>
>
> 3.Robert Jordan's Wheel of
> Time series - (124 votes)
> 4.Shadowbane - (121 votes)
> 5.Nibelungenlied - (88 votes)
> 6.R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf
> Saga - (87 votes)
> 7.Don Quijote - (60 votes)
> 8.Terry Pratchett's Discworld
> - (52 votes)
> 9.Lovecraft's "Call of Cthulu"
> - (46 votes)
> 10.Final Fantasy games - (43
> votes)
> 11.Kamelot/Excalibur/Merlin -
> (37 votes)
> 12.Stephen King's gunslinger,
> Roland of Gilead - (23 votes)
> 13.Trojan War - (23 votes)
> 14.Michael Moorcok's Elric of
> Melnibone - (20 votes)
> 15.Russian Pagan Mythology -
> (20 votes)
> 16.Shannara Saga by Terry
> Brooks - (16 votes)
> 17.A story about Belgarath -
> (13 votes)
> 18.Roger Zelazny Amber Series
> - (9 votes)
> 19.Riftwar Saga by Raymond E.
> Feist - (8 votes)
> 20.The Ancient Bylina of Volga
> - (4 votes)
>
> ********************************************************************
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>
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:22:59 -0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" <vini@ENGINEER.COM>
Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment
Subject: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho)
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Is the SV Spain? Or what?
What do I have to buy?
What is it relation to Red Steel?
vini.
Agathokles wrote:
>
> "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote:
> >
>
> > I'm curious: where have they appeared in D&D? Svage Coast? D&D 3rd ed? I
> > had no idea!
>
> Savage Coast, in the nations of Guadalante and Cimarron, mainly. (Though
> Cimarron has a "far west" feel, and its gauchos are more similar to
> cowboys from western movies)
> There are gauchos in other Savage Baronies too, mainly Saragon and
> Gargo�a.
> --
>
> Giampaolo Agosta
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:29:05 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Herve Musseau <hmusseau@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Almanacs in pdf
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From: H�vard <hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO>
>> Okay, well that's done, all three of them (1014, 1015, 1016) are now
available
>> at the usual place (http://www.geocities.com/gallidox/) in PDF. For some
reason
>> I have trouble accessing the 1016 file, but it ain't my fault.
>> Shawn if you want a copy for the official Mystara site and can't access the
>> online version, ask me.
>
>This still aint working.
>Are anybody gonna fix it?
I know. Yahoo's support told me I should keep the files under 2MB. So, I'm
trying to find a new place for the files. I have already asked Shawn to see if
he could put them on his site. I may also put it, at least temporarily, to the
homepage area i have from my isp.
=====
___________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <hmusseau@yahoo.com>
http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:55:34 +0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Agathokles <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho)
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"Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote:
>
> Is the SV Spain? Or what?
Uhm... it's more complex than that.
Savage Baronies:
Vilaverde Portugal
Texeiras Brasil
Narvaez Inquisition's Spain
Torreon spanish colonies
Almarron Mexico
Guadalante Argentina
Cimarron Far West
for Saragon and Gargo�a I have no ready RW equivalents.
Other nations of the Savage Coast are related to Gaul (Robrenn), France
(Renardie), England (Bellayne), etc.
> What do I have to buy?
Nothing, since it's all downloadable for free, except, I think, the
CD(s) that went with the Red Steel material.
> What is it relation to Red Steel?
It's the same, AFAIK.
--
Giampaolo Agosta
agathokles@libero.it
agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles/index.htm
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:51:21 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= <hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO>
Subject: Re: Almanacs in pdf
In-Reply-To: <20001129182905.16106.qmail@web1205.mail.yahoo.com>
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Herve Musseau wrote:
> I know. Yahoo's support told me I should keep the files under 2MB. So, I'm
> trying to find a new place for the files. I have already asked Shawn to see if
> he could put them on his site. I may also put it, at least temporarily, to the
> homepage area i have from my isp.
zipped versions are a good thing.
Also, I can put the files on my site if you like.
H�vard
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"God created man in his image, and then man returned the
favour." -Voltaire
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:21:21 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= <hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO>
Subject: Re: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho)
In-Reply-To: <3A255F36.FB338F87@libero.it>
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Agathokles wrote:
> for Saragon and Gargo�a I have no ready RW equivalents.
Isnt Saragon based on Moorish Spain?
> Nothing, since it's all downloadable for free, except, I think, the
> CD(s) that went with the Red Steel material.
The maps arent there. You have to get the box for those. If you cant find
them, there are other maps of the region available on various web sites.
H�vard
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"God created man in his image, and then man returned the
favour." -Voltaire
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:29:19 -0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" <vini@ENGINEER.COM>
Organization: Dream Entertainment & Edutainment
Subject: Re: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named LegendaryGaucho)
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Alright: I can play in my own country and never knew. :-(
I'll propose to TSR to represent them here and spice up their
marketing. ;-)
Well, I'll dload this stuff and introduce it. the problem is: I was too
young - not tooooo young - when the time was right o buy the original
stuff - 94, 96 - so I ended up missing some imporatnt stuff.
Shawn's site - yaaaaaaaaawn - has been helping a lot. And, of course,
you guys.
Thanks.
vini magus.
Agathokles wrote:
>
> "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote:
> >
> > Is the SV Spain? Or what?
>
> Uhm... it's more complex than that.
>
> Savage Baronies:
> Vilaverde Portugal
> Texeiras Brasil
> Narvaez Inquisition's Spain
> Torreon spanish colonies
> Almarron Mexico
> Guadalante Argentina
> Cimarron Far West
(snip)
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:54:34 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Herve Musseau <hmusseau@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Thyatians
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Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
>Plus, if the author of the "Thyatians: all evil" screed applied that reasoning
consistantly, all his Alphatians would have to leave Mystara or agree to be
ruled by others. They certainly couldn't run their own Empire, since all of it
was aquired by conquest, and Alphatians have no place on Mystara they can call
their own.
Actually, that would mean they are evil too.
>But I don't think he meant to apply those claims consistantly.
(See also my earlier remarks on warmaking . and whether that's sufficient
reason to declare the MoH as evil for my opinion on the war & conquest thing.
But we're talking Herve's opinion here, and I guess we can expect him to depict
all Alphatian spellcasters as evil from now on, since they run an empire that
exists due to conquest, enslavement of non-Alphatians, .)
Actually it isn't my opinion, as I'm sure you guessed. I was just using some
people's arguments about Stefan (how he "conquered" Traladara and brought it
civilization, with some deaths as a result) and applied it to Thyatis to show
how stupid that was. With that kind of argument, you can demonstrate that
anyone is evil. In fact, as someone answered in a private mail, with that
argument I could demonstrate that all Americans are (or rather, are descended
from) evil people. I might add that I could also demonstrate with the same
flawed logic that everyone who is for death penalty is lawful evil (it's
upholding the law and public order no matter how many people are wrongly
killed) or that being pro-NRA is being chaotic evil (personal defense and
justice rather than institutional ones, many innocent people get killed).
>If it wasn't for Thyatis, the whole world probably would have been conquered
by the grasping hand of Alphatia; thus the entire planet would have been run by
a crude and cruel despotism. Thyatis's defense of its eastern frontier, tying
down the Alphatians, formed a barrier behind which the rest of the Known World
could develop their own societies.
That's possible, though unlikely. If the Alphatians wanted to conquer the whole
world, they could have done so long ago, long before the Thyatians even came to
Brun. In fact, Alphatia warred in Brun only because the Thyatian pirates were
attacking their ships. In fact, the Thyatians are the reason why the "rest of
the Known World" has any reason to fear the Alphatians, not to mention the
Thyatians themselves. Besides, it the Thyatians who attacked and conquered, at
some point or another, most of the "rest of the Known World": Traladara,
Ierendi, Ylaruam, Vyalia, Glantri, Darokin, Heldann... even Minrothad now. The
Alphatians conquered only, besides Thyatis, Glantri, Minrothad, Ylaruam,
Atruaghin.
>As for the "forcing their culture on others" part, well Alphatians tend to do
that much more than Thyatians do (see DotE for each Empire's attitudes towards
other cultures). Now, some Thyatians are different - HKs, for example, and
Stefan - they like to force their opinions on others, compelling them to
knuckle under to their way of doing things, but they had to leave Thyatis to do
so.
Well actually I don't see any difference between what Stefan or the HKs do, and
what the Thyatians do: in all cases they force Thyatian culture, ideas, and way
of life onto others.
>And Thyatians don't usually put their greedy, nasty half-brothers (Lernal) and
cousins (Ludwig) in positions of authority - again with the exception of those
who have to leave Thyatis to do so.
No, they just appoint evil, corrupted senators. And he nasty guys don't need to
be put into power, they make a coup and grab it for themselves.
>One simply has to look at the light-handed way with which Thyatis governed
Traladara before Stefan came, and compare that with Stefan's way (shove
everyone's customs asside and Borg them), or with Esterhold - or even with
Norwold, where the local (Heldanner) folks are being shoved asside as fast as
possible.
They conquered it, and "leech[ed] the nation's wealth away", which though not
especially dark isn't so nice either as the Traladarans didn't ask to be
conquered and taxed. The Thyatians conquered Traladara and sent governors to
maintain order and collect taxes, and then sent Stefan with a clear title to
rule the land as he saw fit, first taking by force the land then giving it to
one of their own - how nice.
=====
___________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <hmusseau@yahoo.com>
http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:51:42 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Thyatians
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Actually it isn't my opinion, as I'm sure you
> guessed. I was just using some
> people's arguments about Stefan (how he "conquered"
> Traladara and brought it
> civilization, with some deaths as a result) and
> applied it to Thyatis to show
> how stupid that was. With that kind of argument, you
> can demonstrate that
> anyone is evil. In fact, as someone answered in a
> private mail, with that
> argument I could demonstrate that all Americans are
> (or rather, are descended
> from) evil people. I might add that I could also
> demonstrate with the same
> flawed logic that everyone who is for death penalty
> is lawful evil (it's
> upholding the law and public order no matter how
> many people are wrongly
> killed) or that being pro-NRA is being chaotic evil
> (personal defense and
> justice rather than institutional ones, many
> innocent people get killed).
I think that is what I have been complaining about.
There seems with the arguements that some have made
about stefan being evil that they make the entire
setting more evil then IMO it really is. Fun but not
something that says Mystara to me.
If you are willing to change the definitions and make
the whole setting more evil, or willing to change
stefans character and motovations then fine but
acnoledge how it changes the setting and the
implications of validating those arguements as can be
seen above.
> >As for the "forcing their culture on others" part,
> well Alphatians tend to do
> that much more than Thyatians do (see DotE for each
> Empire's attitudes towards
> other cultures). Now, some Thyatians are different -
> HKs, for example, and
> Stefan - they like to force their opinions on
> others, compelling them to
> knuckle under to their way of doing things, but they
> had to leave Thyatis to do
> so.
>
> Well actually I don't see any difference between
> what Stefan or the HKs do, and
> what the Thyatians do: in all cases they force
> Thyatian culture, ideas, and way
> of life onto others.
I don't think I have ever disputed that stefan is
thyatian and so if all thyatians really are evil then
stefan is too. But I don't think all of them are. And
if the alphaianians really are worse then the
thyatians then they can be worse then stefan IMO. This
really does look like a much more daunting world if
you really want that.
:-)
Chris.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:06:17 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
>> That's possible, though unlikely. If the Alphatians wanted to conquer the whole world, they could have done so long ago, long before the Thyatians even came to Brun. <<
Nope; because before there was the Thyatians, there were the Nithians - the Alphatians couldn't conquer them. Once the Nithians were gone, they started advancing again, until they met resistance.
But I know you guys always deny Alphatia is conquering, even while having them expand in Norwold, etc. So whatever.
>> Well actually I don't see any difference between what Stefan or the HKs do, and what the Thyatians do: in all cases they force Thyatian culture, ideas, and way of life onto others. <<
I guess that's why the culture of the Ochaleans & Pearl Islanders is indistinguishable from that of the Thyatian mainland. 8-)~
>> They conquered it, and "leech[ed] the nation's wealth away", <<
Since you put that in quotes, I assume you're quoting it from some "canon" publication describing what the Thyatians were doing in Traladara. Please let me know where you found it
>> which though not especially dark isn't so nice either as the Traladarans didn't ask to be conquered and taxed. The Thyatians conquered Traladara and sent governors to maintain order and collect taxes, and then sent Stefan with a clear title to rule the land as he saw fit, first taking by force the land then giving it to
one of their own - how nice. <<
See, I never claimed the Thyatians were in it out of Lawful Good altruism, like some have claimed regarding Stefan (interesting: the same people who see Stefan as ligitimate in Karameikos, see the Thyatians as illigitimately there - but Stefan derives whatever ligitimacy he may have from the appointment by the Thyatians. My point, if you've been paying attention, is he isn't legitimate).
I never claimed the Thyatians were pure. Now, they didn't appoint evil cousins or land-stealing persons (and, contrary to your claim, they didn't appoint any corrupt Senators or governors, either. Here's a real quote, rather than a made up one "Trade went on, the wealthy families of Specularuam retained their properties*, and there were no oppressive cruelty or taxation to spark rebellion."
*Unlike when Stefan came, and folks didn't retain what they owned, because he unleashed many ruthless men upon them).
Moving back up:
>> I was just using some people's arguments about Stefan (how he "conquered" Traladara and brought it civilization, with some deaths as a result) and applied it to Thyatis to show how stupid that was. <<
Actually, it doesn't really show that it's stupid. People who hold that view of Stefan's actions (assuming they concentrate primarily upon his "conquest"-type stuff) likely hold the same opinion of Thyatians when they do that sort of thing (the oddly hippocritical thing is that people who look at such behavior as bad when done by Thyatians often look at it as being just fine when the same thing is done by Stefan.)
My point, which I made before you posted your remarks, was that (for game purposes at least), I don't see war and conquest as in and of itself evil (I even used the Alphatians as an example, saying that their conquests isn't a primary reason for viewing them as evil - it is their larger behavior patterns); I wouldn't say its good, either (thus my other point, also made in an earlier post, about whether these same people - including, perhaps, the setting's writers - who are arguing Stefan is good for Traladara, bringing civilization, roads, and cities, and portraying all the local leaders as criminals - view the Thyatian invasion of the Hinterlands the same way, the backwards natives living in dark savagery needing an outside force to bring enlightenment, proper administration and government, and road & city building to them.
Further remarks on this same quote:
>> I was just using some people's arguments about Stefan (how he "conquered" Traladara and brought it civilization, with some deaths as a result) and applied it to Thyatis to show how stupid that was. <<
If I may say so myself, and since you were the one who introduced the word stupid first I feel it will be justified, IMO your post was stupid, in the sense that it concentrated on only one aspect of people's arguments about Stefan (no one at all that I know of has argued that Stefan is evil *only* for "conquering" the locals, I.E. supressing their rulers. That's been *one* aspect of a larger argument); you treated that as all that Jenn, for example, had to say on the subject, and that's stupid and distortive of her position.
Rob had some pithy things to say on war & conquest in a game context, which he put rather well, without distorting what people were arguing. See my reply to his post for my opinion.
>> with that argument I could demonstrate that all Americans are (or rather, are descended from) evil people. <<
Well, many Europeans (forgetting their own history) do just that. But I'm sure you oppose them vigorously when they do. 8-)
>> I might add that I could also demonstrate with the same flawed logic that everyone who is for death penalty is lawful evil (it's upholding the law and public order no matter how many people are wrongly killed) or that being pro-NRA is being chaotic evil (personal defense and justice rather than institutional ones, many innocent people get killed). <<
And, again, many people make such arguments.
But, again, I'm sure you oppose them vigorously when they do. 8-)
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:26:22 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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--- Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
> Of course, there is as much evidence that Stefan is
> a member of the Storm Soldiers as their is for
> Ludwig's membership. If not more.
And that evidence would be???
Ludwig *is* from Hattias, and you have to be Hattian
to be a storm soldier. Both must have Hattian blood to
have Ludwig be 100% hattian and thus be pure blood
Hattian. This is potentially important because the
storm soldiers belive in "Hattian supremacy" and
"racial-purity". Ludwig is stefans cousin and that
means that stefan's mother could have been hattian but
his father is most likely thyatian given title of
Machetos. Stefan is not 100% Hattian and did not live
in Hattias, thus is far less likely to be a storm
soldier.
Ludwig has a 24th level general, where did he come
from? Stefan does not have quite so much in the way of
effective bad guys under his command.
Stefan is "comfortable" in anything, ludwig always
wears black.
Ludwig is military minded, a soldier, stefan IMO is
much more political. Storm soldiers are IMO military
men and like military uniforms.
Stefan is advised by Olivia, Ludwigs wife stayed in
Hattias when he left (not a sign he respects women now
is it?). Storm soldiers belive in the "surpression of
women" and so IMO it is not very likely stefan is one.
That is my reasoning, I would appreciate it if you
could back up your statement or withdraw it. Mine is
based entirely on canon to my knowledge.
I do admit that if Bargle is a traldarian as you
sergested I do not have a definitive reason why he is
working for Ludwig if Ludwig is a storm soldier. It is
possible that ludwig is an unwitting storm soldier
too. In fact the L24 fighter could be influencing
ludwig more then we know and his affiliations with his
homeland cause a large portion of his tendancies
without him having them all.
> Because the true secret is that Stefan Karameikos is
> the Insidious Hand of Thanatos:
Well this I did think was a good alternate plotline
for an evil stefan once you make the couple of
neccecary changes to canon. Interesting read. If it's
ok, I think I might put together a good stefan bad
stefan page from this disscussion. Would you mind me
useing this?
Chris.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:37:29 EST
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Larry E. Lamb" <Boondale@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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In a message dated 11/29/2000 2:31:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM writes:
<< > Because the true secret is that Stefan Karameikos is
> the Insidious Hand of Thanatos:
>>
I would love to know whare this comes from. BTW, im using AOL 5.0 and NOT the
6.0, i dont like 6.0 at all.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:55:52 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
>> And that evidence would be??? <<
Same as for Ludwig, because you're *wrong* on one score: Thanatos is an equal-oportunity employer.
Ludwig really wouldn't likely be a commited Storm Soldier, because he has a non-Hattian (and non-Thyatian) as his "right hand man" (Bargle).
OtoH, Stefan certainly is encouraging the cause of Entropy.
Plus, while Ludwig had a Traladaran as his right hand man, Stefan was displacing most Traladaras from positions of authority.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:21:25 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> I guess that's why the culture of the Ochaleans &
> Pearl Islanders is indistinguishable from that of
> the Thyatian mainland. 8-)~
Then why is it defined seperately in the DotE DMG?
> >> They conquered it, and "leech[ed] the nation's
> wealth away", <<
>
> Since you put that in quotes, I assume you're
> quoting it from some "canon" publication describing
> what the Thyatians were doing in Traladara. Please
> let me know where you found it
It was in my quotes post.
pwa1 pg 46 :The Thyatians during their conquest "moved
an army into traldara, conquering the costal reagons
and some inland comunities and declaring the nation to
be a protectorate of thyatis, leeching the nations
wealth away."
> See, I never claimed the Thyatians were in it out of
> Lawful Good altruism, like some have claimed
> regarding Stefan (interesting: the same people who
> see Stefan as ligitimate in Karameikos, see the
> Thyatians as illigitimately there
I think the thyatians were legitimate too, just not
good for traldara.
>- but Stefan
> derives whatever ligitimacy he may have from the
> appointment by the Thyatians. My point, if you've
> been paying attention, is he isn't legitimate).
>
> I never claimed the Thyatians were pure. Now, they
> didn't appoint evil cousins or land-stealing persons
> (and, contrary to your claim, they didn't appoint
> any corrupt Senators or governors, either. Here's a
> real quote, rather than a made up one "Trade went
> on, the wealthy families of Specularuam retained
> their properties*, and there were no oppressive
> cruelty or taxation to spark rebellion."
Trade increse under stefan. Thus under thyatis no
change under stefan an increase. Wealthy families kept
their properties, what about the not so wealthy? And
it is arguable that the rebellion under stefan was
caused by oppressive cruelty or taxation, at least on
stefan's part.
> *Unlike when Stefan came, and folks didn't retain
> what they owned, because he unleashed many ruthless
> men upon them).
Did stefan take it, I don't think so. Did he want it
taken? IMO no. Did he likely offer compensation well
he does for other things in AC1011:
pwa2 pg199 Yarthmont 24: Stefan reminds the new nobles
that their dominions must obey the kings law. There
are to be no forced removals of fumans from the areas,
and humans moving voluntaraly from the new elven
dominions must be compensated fairly for the lands
they leave behind."
It appears he may have learnt his lesson. Is this a
step to do thigs right next time, IMO yep.
> My point, which I made before you posted your
> remarks, was that (for game purposes at least), I
> don't see war and conquest as in and of itself evil
> (I even used the Alphatians as an example, saying
> that their conquests isn't a primary reason for
> viewing them as evil - it is their larger behavior
> patterns); I wouldn't say its good, either (thus my
> other point, also made in an earlier post, about
> whether these same people - including, perhaps, the
> setting's writers - who are arguing Stefan is good
> for Traladara, bringing civilization, roads, and
> cities, and portraying all the local leaders as
> criminals
Some of them are, some of them arn't, just like the
thyatians.
> If I may say so myself, and since you were the one
> who introduced the word stupid first I feel it will
> be justified, IMO your post was stupid, in the sense
> that it concentrated on only one aspect of people's
> arguments about Stefan (no one at all that I know of
> has argued that Stefan is evil *only* for
> "conquering" the locals, I.E. supressing their
> rulers. That's been *one* aspect of a larger
> argument); you treated that as all that Jenn, for
> example, had to say on the subject, and that's
> stupid and distortive of her position.
I agree but if we can conclude he is not evil for
conquering then it is no longer part of our arguement
and we can look at the other things. Hence one thing
at a time.
> And, again, many people make such arguments.
> But, again, I'm sure you oppose them vigorously when
> they do. 8-)
Does the fact that people make them make them right?
Chris.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:42:33 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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Just because they promote racial purity does not mean they all have to be
racially pure. Both the KKK and the Nazis were good examples of this
contradiction in belief and practice.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Furneaux" <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
> --- Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
> > Of course, there is as much evidence that Stefan is
> > a member of the Storm Soldiers as their is for
> > Ludwig's membership. If not more.
>
> And that evidence would be???
>
> Ludwig *is* from Hattias, and you have to be Hattian
> to be a storm soldier. Both must have Hattian blood to
> have Ludwig be 100% hattian and thus be pure blood
> Hattian. This is potentially important because the
> storm soldiers belive in "Hattian supremacy" and
> "racial-purity". Ludwig is stefans cousin and that
> means that stefan's mother could have been hattian but
> his father is most likely thyatian given title of
> Machetos. Stefan is not 100% Hattian and did not live
> in Hattias, thus is far less likely to be a storm
> soldier.
>
> Ludwig has a 24th level general, where did he come
> from? Stefan does not have quite so much in the way of
> effective bad guys under his command.
>
> Stefan is "comfortable" in anything, ludwig always
> wears black.
>
> Ludwig is military minded, a soldier, stefan IMO is
> much more political. Storm soldiers are IMO military
> men and like military uniforms.
>
> Stefan is advised by Olivia, Ludwigs wife stayed in
> Hattias when he left (not a sign he respects women now
> is it?). Storm soldiers belive in the "surpression of
> women" and so IMO it is not very likely stefan is one.
>
> That is my reasoning, I would appreciate it if you
> could back up your statement or withdraw it. Mine is
> based entirely on canon to my knowledge.
>
> I do admit that if Bargle is a traldarian as you
> sergested I do not have a definitive reason why he is
> working for Ludwig if Ludwig is a storm soldier. It is
> possible that ludwig is an unwitting storm soldier
> too. In fact the L24 fighter could be influencing
> ludwig more then we know and his affiliations with his
> homeland cause a large portion of his tendancies
> without him having them all.
>
> > Because the true secret is that Stefan Karameikos is
> > the Insidious Hand of Thanatos:
>
> Well this I did think was a good alternate plotline
> for an evil stefan once you make the couple of
> neccecary changes to canon. Interesting read. If it's
> ok, I think I might put together a good stefan bad
> stefan page from this disscussion. Would you mind me
> useing this?
>
> Chris.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
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>
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:36:01 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
> >> And that evidence would be??? <<
>
> Same as for Ludwig, because you're *wrong* on one
> score: Thanatos is an equal-oportunity employer.
Ah but it doesn't say in canon that thanatos is
backing either. So How does that prove anything?
> Ludwig really wouldn't likely be a commited Storm
> Soldier, because he has a non-Hattian (and
> non-Thyatian) as his "right hand man" (Bargle).
I do agree with this.
> OtoH, Stefan certainly is encouraging the cause of
> Entropy.
If that is the case, which is not stated in canon. So
no cigar.
> Plus, while Ludwig had a Traladaran as his right
> hand man, Stefan was displacing most Traladaras from
> positions of authority.
So this one attitude that matches the Hattians, yet
alone the storm soldiers attitudes is your evidence.
How is this more?
Ludwig has one attitude that we agree could easily
clash, while stefan has one that *could* be concidered
the same.
I *do* like the idea, I'm just saying you shouldn't
claim there is at least as much if not more evidence
for it and not give it. I think stefan would make a
better storm soldier is a different arguement.
Chris.
BTW where does it say bargle is Traldarian? (just wondering)
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:39:11 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Daunting World
>> This really does look like a much more daunting world if
you really want that. <<
Setting asside the topic of whom or which people is/are evil or not and for which reason, and using this as an oportunity, perhaps, to pivot to another subject:
What's wrong with a "daunting world"?
I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but OtoH, it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development is to generate adventure possibilities
(thus, btw, the "Stefan of the Storm Soldiers" post; if one reads it, it doesn't really have *Stefan* as a Storm Soldier, really - the title of the post and its first sentence notwithstanding, it has Stefan as a agent of Thanatos, using Storm Soldiers *and* *others* as pawns to advance a Plot of His master. Is that what things are "really like" in Karameikos? Not in even in my campaign. But what it *is* is a campaign possibility - I.E. a way to generate adventures for characters in the wake of Ludwig, not as a way to produce a rain of flower pettals on everything).
Now, we might look at many places in a game world as places we wouldn't want to live in (IMO, if we thought about it, that'd be most of 'em, if only because most of these places don't have chocolate and the few places that do don't have toilets or internet access) - but they're supposed to be fun places to adventure in (lack of internet access doesn't affect my character, who isn't concerned with such things. Toiletries and chocolate have been provided for, however) - "Building the Perfect Society" might be a semi-goal of a campaign, but the campaign is pretty much over if the characters succeed (the Perfect Society has no problems, and now that it's the Perfect Society it's so strong that nothing can threaten its Perfection. Game over).
"Does this mean we can't have game world societies we'd admire"? Not at all - the players, through their characters, often (doesn't always have to be the case) need to feel a stake in this or that area (the "home" of the characters usually), feel it worth struggling for - but also worth improving. Part of this is expressed in the fact that just about all list members (on just about all lists) have some nation or place in the setting (or places) that they feel warmly for.
But that differs from person to person, even if some of them have (or seem to have) more adherents than others. But the more close to utopianistic that these places get, the more the adventurers need to leave it to actually find adventure (or the more often the "bad outsiders come in to threaten utopia" scenario must be used, to the point where its frequence would, IMO, get old). Once the last goblin is cleared out of the Dymrak, then what? Once the last corrupt Senator is exposed and removed, then what?
To use an example that isn't among those recently discussed, the worst extreme of this can be found, IMO, with the Karimari. Now, the Karimari are a setting that some might look at with admiration, as an example of good people leading good lives doing nice things in harmony with nature, blah blah - but I'm not sure there's a single vote for it as anyone's favorite place (I'm open to being corrected on this) in Mystara, especially favorite place to adventure in. It's a place to pass through and be awed by. But, as created, they have no problems that need solving (thus no adventures, really), and they're depicted as so strong (even their militia all has magic equipment) that they don't need adventurers to help them. Hanging out in Karimari lands is more tourism than Epic Heroic Fantasy adventure.
The world is a game world - it's about daunting adventurers exploring and interacting in a daunting world. Thus, really, when a place starts to seem to be getting too "fixed" (its flaws removed or deposed/excised), then that's time to introduce some new twists/elements. Otherwise one really does end up going the CM1 "Challenge of the Warlords" route (for those who don't have that module, or who have forgotten, it starts with a premise that all the nearby challenges have been overcome and the PCs are getting bored rolling kobolds for copper pieces, thus they go to Norwold to seek adventure oportunities that can no longer be found in wherever it is that they start out in).
Of course a balance has to be struck - no one wants to see their favorite area completely devistated (thus, for example, the "Stefan of the Storm Soldiers" scenario isn't about the utter devistation of the region - it's about people, PCs and NPCs, struggling to prevent such a thing from happening, and hoping they succeed). But people really shouldn't want to see their favorite area perfected either, unless they're done with it (are you done with your favorite area? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?) and plan on leaving it behind (in which case, a good DM who's campaign moves to, say, Norwold, will probably *still* introduce something "off" back home, "where it all started", so that The Party can be "called on once again in the service of the land" - but even then, the campaign's overall focus will have shifted, leaving the old stomping grounds behind. Things are just too staid there now).
Daunting world? Someone should explain to me why the gameworld *shouldn't* be a daunting world.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:47:54 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Daunting World II
I hit Send and then thought of one other point:
IMO, a good case can be made that, as a campaign goes on, the world as the characters experience it should become *more* daunting, not less. Karameikos: Kingdom for Beginners would stay just that, Kingdom for Beginners, if DMs and designers didn't keep finding ways to introduce things that could keep a party challenged as they progress in levels & power.
If, when the characters are 9th+ level and Ludwig is long gone (the Hin having gotten him) and the biggest threat they're still dealing with are the same goblins in the Dymrak that they dealt with when they were low level, then something's wrong*.
*Now, they might still be dealing with goblins, but if they are, then the DM has probably introduced a lot of new twists to those goblins, making them more akin to the famed "Killer Kobolds", thus magnifying their threat - they are, then, no longer just the same old goblins they faced when they were 1st-3rd level, but much more challenging. Which is the point: the level of challenge can't decrease during the campaign if the PCs are to be challenged. Things have to get tougher, not easier.
Challenges might shift: at low level, it might be lots of fighting, but the DM might challenge the characters with more "political arena" type adventures when they get higher level (they can't just cut down Senator Palpatane and end the threat to the Republic, they've got to outmaneuver him politically, not just by force) - but the villians must then become more subtle and "unexpected" ones (Snidely-whiplash only goes so far before it gets old).
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:09:59 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> wrote:
> I guess that's why the culture of the Ochaleans &> Pearl Islanders is indistinguishable from that of the Thyatian mainland. 8-)~ <<
>> Then why is it defined seperately in the DotE DMG? <<
I was joking. That's why there's the smily face with the toungue out. 8-)
>>It was in my quotes post. <<
Oh, that was one I skipped.
Funny, the Gaz doesn't describe things like that at all.
K:KoA, which goes further out of its way to demonize the Thyatians (along with belittling every nation outside of Karameikos, except the Hin I guess) doesn't describe things like that at all.
(One side point: now that Ludwig's safely out of Karameikos, what's the point of saying "gosh, he was a member of the Storm Soldiers" - while he works with a Kobold. But, what's the point of saying "Stefan's an agent of Thanatos, in league with the Storm Soldiers"? Introduces a whole new campaign concept into Karameikos).
>> I think the thyatians were legitimate too, just not
good for traldara. <<
Well, ok.
>> Thus under thyatis no change under stefan an increase. <<
"canon" contradicts that. It says that under the Thyatians, trade boomed and so the traders profited more. I've mentioned this. . .jeepers, how many times do I have to write something till it gets read? Probably I've mentioned this a dozen times, to the point where I was thinking people were getting sick of me mentioning it, I didn't think they wouldn't have read it. Page 4 of Gaz1, "The traders suffered a Thyatian tax, but the greater Thyatian interest meant that trade boomed and they profited more anyhow."
Same with something someone mentioned the other day but I decided not to repeat myself for the 6th+ time on that one, when he said "well, what Stefan said was 'autonomy' and that's why they revolted" - at the time, I repeat again on that one, Stefan was doing all he could (with Thincol tacitly cooperating by his silence on the subject) to mislead people into believing that Traladara was still beholden to Thyatis (thus the whole "Grand Duchy" deal) - one can look that up in the Gaz, too (this time I'm going to make folks work for it rather than giving the precise quote. Perhaps it will be more memorable if you have to find it yourself).
>> Wealthy families kept their properties, what about the not so wealthy? <<
They didn't get their land stolen from them until Stefan unleashed his ruthless men on them.
>> And it is arguable that the rebellion under stefan was caused by oppressive cruelty or taxation, at least on stefan's part. <<
I suppose Stefan could have taxed them cruelly and opressed them and thus pushed them into revolt, but the revolt seems to have occured very soon after his arrival (perhaps he anounced on onerous tax increase, along with, in his over-exuberance, telling them how lucky they were to have him come shape and mold them in his image - I can see people reacting badly to that).
>> Did stefan take it, I don't think so. Did he want it
taken? IMO no. <<
To those who's lands get taken by men Stefan apointed and Stefan empowered, it would likely seem little different.
Again, as the Gaz says Stefan "was not as thourough as he should have been about guarding against abuses of this type, and so early resentment against him and his followers was harsh. . .and often deserved." (p.14)
>> It appears he may have learnt his lesson. Is this a
step to do thigs right next time, IMO yep. <<
Wow, and it only took him 40 years.
>> Some of them are, some of them arn't, just like the
thyatians. <<
Right, I agree with you there. That's why I've been saying the record is "mixed" and the thing neutral.
>> I agree but if we can conclude he is not evil for conquering then it is no longer part of our arguement and we can look at the other things. Hence one thing at a time. <<
It's not nessisarily not part of the argument - it is just only one facet of her argument, within the context of other things.
> And, again, many people make such arguments.
> But, again, I'm sure you oppose them vigorously when
> they do. 8-)
>> Does the fact that people make them make them right? <<
Did I say it did?
I said I'm sure he opposes them with vigor when folk make such arguments.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:59:32 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Beau <lby3@LBY3.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
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At 18:39 11/29/2000 -0500, Evil Genius wrote:
>What's wrong with a "daunting world"?
>I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but OtoH,
it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as
an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development
is to generate adventure possibilities
I don't think there's a thing wrong with it. But I don't understand some
people's desire to remake an existant world to make it MORE daunting than
it already is. If one wants such a world, it's not as though there aren't
other TSR/WotC product lines out there, if one wants convenience.
I don't think most people who've played the settings would say that Dark
Sun, Planescape or Birthright AREN'T daunting. There's even that Ravenloft
thing, although I've never found it as bad ass as some people have.
But Mystara isn't a utopia, but at the same time, why does it need to have
everything made as bleak as possible? There are absolutely adventure
possibilities in Mystara as it exists. Hell, some of us are able to come up
with adventures in the Five Shires, which is allegedly impossible.
BEAU
http://www.LBY3.com/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:01:48 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Beau <lby3@LBY3.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World II
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At 18:47 11/29/2000 -0500, Evil Genius wrote:
>I hit Send and then thought of one other point:
>
>IMO, a good case can be made that, as a campaign goes on, the world as the
characters experience it should become *more* daunting, not less.
Karameikos: Kingdom for Beginners would stay just that, Kingdom for
Beginners, if DMs and designers didn't keep finding ways to introduce
things that could keep a party challenged as they progress in levels & power.
>
>If, when the characters are 9th+ level and Ludwig is long gone (the Hin
having gotten him) and the biggest threat they're still dealing with are
the same goblins in the Dymrak that they dealt with when they were low
level, then something's wrong*.
That's one way to deal with it.
Another route is what I'm doing: As the characters rise in level, less of
their time will be spent monster-whomping. (Otherwise, there will come a
point where the Kingdom of Karameikos has to be invaded by CR 20 monsters
just to keep the challenge level even.) Instead, they'll deal with
long-term NPC foes -- who rise in power with them -- and shift their focus
to affairs of state, ruling territories and so on.
BEAU
http://www.LBY3.com/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:09:23 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Beau <lby3@LBY3.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.975542999.0.03047200@www.springmail.com>
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At 19:09 11/29/2000 -0500, Evil Genius wrote:
>K:KoA, which goes further out of its way to demonize the Thyatians (along
with belittling every nation outside of Karameikos, except the Hin I guess)
doesn't describe things like that at all.
I dunno that Darokin was belittled, so much as described accurately.
Actually, one could say that about all the other nations ...
BEAU
http://www.LBY3.com/
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:46:03 -0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Phillip Jones <mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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> >> And that evidence would be??? <<
>
> Same as for Ludwig, because you're *wrong* on one score: Thanatos is an
equal-oportunity employer.
>
> Ludwig really wouldn't likely be a commited Storm Soldier, because he has
a non-Hattian (and non-Thyatian) as his "right hand man" (Bargle).
>
> OtoH, Stefan certainly is encouraging the cause of Entropy.
> Plus, while Ludwig had a Traladaran as his right hand man, Stefan was
displacing most Traladaras from positions of authority.
And, of course the most damning evidence. Stefan has lightning bolts
tattooed on his (please insert location here). :)~
Phil
(aka Alexander Korrigan, humble student of the Great School of Magic)
"I'm not evil. Just practical."
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:42:59 -0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Rob <rmunch@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named Legendary
Gaucho)
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I think Saragon is Moorish Spain (Ylari influence, into science and
technology). Gargona I thought of as Renaissance Italy or something
thereabouts, although the names are Spanish not Italian.
----- Original Message -----
From: H�vard <hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho)
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Agathokles wrote:
>
> > for Saragon and Gargo�a I have no ready RW equivalents.
>
> Isnt Saragon based on Moorish Spain?
>
> > Nothing, since it's all downloadable for free, except, I think, the
> > CD(s) that went with the Red Steel material.
>
> The maps arent there. You have to get the box for those. If you cant find
> them, there are other maps of the region available on various web sites.
>
> H�vard
>
> Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
> http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
>
> "God created man in his image, and then man returned the
> favour." -Voltaire
>
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>
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:09:09 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
>> I agree but if we can conclude he is not evil for conquering then it is no longer part of our arguement and we can look at the other things. Hence one thing at a time. <<
One or two more things on this one:
Just because some of us agree on this part doesn't mean everyone does.
Also, just because something is insufficient in and of itself doesn't mean it doesn't form part of a disturbing whole. That's why, for example, one of *my* points hasn't been that Stefan once made some bad appointments, but that he made them and then didn't trouble himself with correcting the error over a long, long period, and this also was (and remains) only one aspect of my points - which when combined with the rest, form a cohesive and coherent whole.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:12:44 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
>>I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but OtoH, it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development is to generate adventure possibilities <<
>> But Mystara isn't a utopia, but at the same time, why does it need to have everything made as bleak as possible? <<
Please re-read what I said in the below snipped quote, especially the first sentance. And then if you still feel you have a point to make, please re-read my original post on this topic in its entirety, remembering to not skip over the parts where I talked about striking a balance. Then feel free to come back with some responses. First, the quote below:
>>I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but OtoH, it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development is to generate adventure possibilities <<
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:15:25 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World II
>> That's one way to deal with it.
>> Another route is what I'm doing: As the characters rise in level, less of their time will be spent monster-whomping. <<
I also mentioned that possibility. Did you read that part? The part about "political arena" adventures? Again, please re-read my posts in their entirety, and then if you still feel something is wrong with what I actually said, after looking at the whole of the post, then do feel free to come back with it.
*getting slightly exasperated but calming down*
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:17:34 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
>> I dunno that Darokin was belittled, so much as described accurately. Actually, one could say that about all the other nations ...<<
Well, if you're the type of person who thinks that Karameikos (and their sidekick, the Shires) are the only worthy nations on Mystara, then I guess that's the position you might take.
Mostly they gave a distorted picture of everyplace else as somehow not up to Karameikos's snuff. Part of my point is that Karameikos doesn't have any position to be "holier than thou" over the rest of Mystara.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:20:10 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
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--- Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
> >> This really does look like a much more daunting
> world if
> you really want that. <<
> What's wrong with a "daunting world"?
Nothing at all. I do think the world needs to be
daunting, but the key words were "much more" because
in my opinion the sergestion spawning this statement
was a nightmare dimension of Mystara. I was saying
this is the difference I see. Maybe it's 50% nastyer,
but in a nasty world thats a lot. I guess you could
see it like setting the level of trechery, low,
medium, or high. Mystara's a mediumly daunting world
IMO. But the sergestion spaning the above statement
was a highly daunting world. You may like it, I don't
think it's me.
> (thus, btw, the "Stefan of the Storm Soldiers" post;
> if one reads it, it doesn't really have *Stefan* as
> a Storm Soldier, really - the title of the post and
> its first sentence notwithstanding, it has Stefan as
> a agent of Thanatos, using Storm Soldiers *and*
> *others* as pawns to advance a Plot of His master.
I know. it was very imagnitive, and could be quite
fun.
> But that differs from person to person, even if some
> of them have (or seem to have) more adherents than
> others. But the more close to utopianistic that
> these places get, the more the adventurers need to
> leave it to actually find adventure (or the more
> often the "bad outsiders come in to threaten utopia"
> scenario must be used, to the point where its
> frequence would, IMO, get old). Once the last goblin
> is cleared out of the Dymrak, then what? Once the
> last corrupt Senator is exposed and removed, then
> what?
It depends what alignment your PC's are. I know mine
tend to create their own adventure, thus a "perfect
world" ain't going to happen IMC. (Gennerally I'd call
them CN) It's quite fun having the PC's trying to beat
the system.
> The world is a game world - it's about daunting
> adventurers exploring and interacting in a daunting
> world.
yep.
>Thus, really, when a place starts to seem to
> be getting too "fixed" (its flaws removed or
> deposed/excised), then that's time to introduce some
> new twists/elements. Otherwise one really does end
> up going the CM1 "Challenge of the Warlords" route
> (for those who don't have that module, or who have
> forgotten, it starts with a premise that all the
> nearby challenges have been overcome and the PCs are
> getting bored rolling kobolds for copper pieces,
> thus they go to Norwold to seek adventure
> oportunities that can no longer be found in wherever
> it is that they start out in).
I'm so glad you brought that up. (thinking CM1, CM1,
CM1 all through the post till you mentioned it) This
does seem to indicate that Karameikos in canon wasn't
that interesting for high level characters. The only
ones we have above 20th level are stefan (who
conquered the place so has his work cut out), Bargle
(who left when the BE was defeated), A handful of
other high level mages (who are more interested in
research and learning then adventure), some 24th level
general (of the BE, who's never been described to my
knowledge), and maybe a couple of others. Compared to
1000 36th level mages it's squat. My conclusion -
Karameikos was never in canon meant for high level
characters.
> Of course a balance has to be struck - no one wants
> to see their favorite area completely devistated
> (thus, for example, the "Stefan of the Storm
> Soldiers" scenario isn't about the utter devistation
> of the region - it's about people, PCs and NPCs,
> struggling to prevent such a thing from happening,
> and hoping they succeed). But people really
> shouldn't want to see their favorite area perfected
> either, unless they're done with it (are you done
> with your favorite area? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?
> Beuller?)
There's plenty of coruption people can do. What if
Karameikos is good, and is *finally* assasanated
beyond reserection. The power strugle would be fun in
the least.
Chris.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:08:25 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
>> Nothing at all. I do think the world needs to be daunting, but the key words were "much more" because in my opinion the sergestion spawning this statement was a nightmare dimension of Mystara. I was saying this is the difference I see. Maybe it's 50% nastyer,
but in a nasty world thats a lot. <<
That's true, and those are good points you make, but see the below.
>> I guess you could see it like setting the level of trechery, low, medium, or high. Mystara's a mediumly daunting world IMO. But the sergestion spaning the above statement was a highly daunting world. You may like it, I don't think it's me. <<
But what disturbs me, and what brought me to bring it up, is that, if nothing else, from this discussion I've sort of taken with me the sense that the fans of the setting (in this case, a part of the setting, Karameikos), don't see much problem with draining away the "daunting-level" - that what's going on is a racheting *downward* of the dawnt-level - and a seeming objection to things that might boost it back up (to what I would call keeping a balance between success - letting the adventurers or whoever have their successes, but then one has to introduce something to replace the challenge they overcame, a new challenge).
One can take out Ludwig, pacify the Dymrak with new elven colonies, etc. etc., and for some (especially those who most admire Karameikos), this doesn't raise an eybrow. But the idea of then introducing new challenges to take the place of the old (and perhaps stiff ones, because, lets face it, Karameikos was designed as the starting place for beginners, but folks - *especially* folks who like the place - want to use it beyond the point where they're beginners; which means having new challanges appropriate not only to experienced characters but increasingly experienced players). Now, I'm of the opinion that Ludwig should have gone long ago - but then one can't just let things get calmer as a result and still see it as an adventure setting.
>> It depends what alignment your PC's are. I know mine tend to create their own adventure, <<
I tended to leave things open-ended and let the players make their own choices, too, but that still meant presenting them with an array of options within the setting (not "you have X Y and Z you can do" so much as making sure that they were aware of goings on and personages and oportunities that might pique their interest).
>> thus a "perfect world" ain't going to happen IMC. (Gennerally I'd call them CN) It's quite fun having the PC's trying to beat
the system. <<
Ahh, ok. That helps explain why you're most interested in a Lawful-to-Good "system" for them to "beat" (or try at least).
I haven't a problem with that, but others seem, judging from their comments, to most often run their Karameikan campaigns where the characters are aligned with that system - in which case what is needed is not for that system to reach a point where it is unchallenged (which puts the PCs out of work) or incorruptable (dittos).
>> I'm so glad you brought that up. (thinking CM1, CM1,
CM1 all through the post till you mentioned it) This
does seem to indicate that Karameikos in canon wasn't
that interesting for high level characters. <<
Yes, but my point is, why should it remain that way as time goes on (CM1 having been set in AC 1000), or worse, get even more placid and uninviting to more experienced characters - *especially* if one likes that place above all else (IMO, a "favorite nation" in an adventuring world is the one you prefer to adventure in, not admire from afar. The whole point is adventure). It's been pointed out before (and I agree with it), that in most respects the Norwold set up is just Karameikos all over again - except that, if one really likes Karameikos, it isn't the same thing. Fans of Norwold and fans of Karameikos are not identical (I actually, guilty admission I guess, like Norwold better, I can't define why I guess, I just do). Point being, adventuring in the one place isn't the same as adventuring in the other, and if you and your players prefer a certain place (sure you're going to adventure outside it), one ends up with three choices as the campaign progresses:
1) Don't have the setting's challenges evolve with the characters. Shift the campaign somewhere else when the characters grow beyond the favorite nation (the "CM1 Route"). But this means leaving behind a favorite region.
2) Don't have the setting's challenges evolve with the characters. Retire the characters after a certain level, or end the campaign once the "pre-set" challenges have been met.
3) Have the campaign be fit to suit the characters - as they grow, the challenges they are faced with are designed to suit the characters. As they overcome "pre-set" challenges (or as the designers have them overcome "off stage" in some "official" product that ends up removing adventure oportunities), the DM introduces new ones in order to keep the party engaged in and satisfied with the place everyone enjoys adventuring in most.
I tend to prefer the third.
>> There's plenty of coruption people can do. What if Karameikos is good, and is *finally* assasanated beyond reserection. The power strugle would be fun in the least. <<
Right, also a good idea (or what if the old coot just kicks the bucket, guys who die of old age can't be raised, and a similar power struggle ensues) - point is that, along with the "Stefan of the Storm Soldiers" idea (which, as I said, wasn't even something I used in my campaign - indeed, I wrote that as I thought of it, stream-of-conciousness, as I write just about every post, which is why they're such messes); what that does is introduce a new eliment of adventure oportunity. I'm saying, and I guess we do agree, that's the way to go, IMO.
To keep the world daunting, at the same level of daunting-ness, one always has to be ready to introduce new threats, why? Simply to keep up with the attrition of the old ones (I wouldn't deny the party its victory if it overcomes something - they deserve the achievement. But the players also want more adventure right around the corner). If the characters go up in levels and the players tastes in what sort of adventure they seek evolves, the opposition has to be able to provide them with the appropriate challenge.
Plus, the challenges should change because dealing with the same old stuff would obviously get stale over time.
Like you mentioned with Ludwig & Bargle leaving. Once they're gone, whats in their place? IMO, it's not that counter-intuitive to introduce daunting elements as old ones are overcome or taken off the stage for whatever reason.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:35:52 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
>> Ah but it doesn't say in canon that thanatos is backing either. So How does that prove anything? <<
It isn't meant to "prove" anything. It's a campaign option. Just as there's no "proof" that Ludwig is a member of the Storm Soldiers (and indication he isn't; guys who serve Kobolds don't seem like the sort), but it still might be interesting to explore that (just don't have him with a right-hand man who isn't hattian or serve the kobold, have him join up with his SS buddies instead).
>> I *do* like the idea, I'm just saying you shouldn't
claim there is at least as much if not more evidence
for it and not give it. <<
Oh, but there *is* at least as much evidence that Stefan serves Thanatos as there is that Ludwig is a member of the Storm Soldiers (pretty close to zero). That "fact" doesn't mean either possibility wouldn't be fun to use in a campaign.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:51:47 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject: Re: Daunting World II
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.975541674.0.81278000@www.springmail.com>
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At 06:47 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
>
>Challenges might shift: at low level, it might be lots of fighting, but
the DM might challenge the characters with more "political arena" type
adventures when they get higher level (they can't just cut down Senator
Palpatane and end the threat to the Republic, they've got to outmaneuver
him politically, not just by force)<
Someone should have told that to Luke Skywalker. :)
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:54:09 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater-effects on Darokin?
Speaking of the Crater-effects, didn't the crater "nuke" the town of Eriadna and the Principality of Blackhill? I thought I read that somewhere.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:01:22 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Beau Yarbrough <lby3@LBY3.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.975546764.0.71908500@www.springmail.com>
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At 20:12 11/29/00 -0500, Evil Genius wrote:
>>>I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but OtoH,
it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as
an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development
is to generate adventure possibilities <<
>
>>> But Mystara isn't a utopia, but at the same time, why does it need to
have everything made as bleak as possible? <<
>
>Please re-read what I said in the below snipped quote, especially the
first sentance. And then if you still feel you have a point to make, please
re-read my original post on this topic in its entirety, remembering to not
skip over the parts where I talked about striking a balance. Then feel free
to come back with some responses. First, the quote below:
>
>>>I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but OtoH,
it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as
an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development
is to generate adventure possibilities <<
I read your post, misspellings and all. I disagree with it, that's all.
I guess that's too difficult a concept for you to grasp.
Christ, you can be an ass.
BEAU
http://www.LBY3.com/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:22:57 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World II
>>> they can't just cut down Senator Palpatane and end the threat to the Republic, they've got to outmaneuver him politically, not just by force <<<
>> Someone should have told that to Luke Skywalker. <<
Ahh, but by then he wasn't Senator Palpatane, which just goes to show what can happen when things get out of hand. The guy starts lightning-bolting you, and your dad has to throw him down the chimney.
As Barney Fife might have said "gotta nip it in the bud, Andy".
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:25:54 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject: Re: Crater-effects on Darokin?
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.975552849.0.69110300@www.springmail.com>
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At 09:54 PM 11/29/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Speaking of the Crater-effects, didn't the crater "nuke" the town of
Eriadna and the Principality of Blackhill? I thought I read that somewhere.<
All WotI says is "In Glantri, the Principalities of Blackstone and Caurenze
are devastated..."
Specifics aren't ever given in any product, up until the G:KoM boxed set,
the map of which shows that Eriadna still stands, though pretty much
everything else in that region is turned into ruins.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:47:28 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
>> I disagree with it, that's all. I guess that's too difficult a concept for you to grasp. <<
Nope; it's just that the so-called points of disagreement you raised were considerations I mentioned myself. Seems odd that you would make a point of disagreeing with me based upon points I myself made.
So, then, who's the orifice since that's the case?
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:04:29 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater-effects on Darokin?
>> Specifics aren't ever given in any product, up until the G:KoM boxed set, the map of which shows that Eriadna still stands, though pretty much everything else in that region is turned into ruins. <<
I checked the G:KoM when you mentioned that. You're right about the map, but the description for the Principality of Blackhill gives a population of 0 and seems to say that the Principality was destroyed. Isn't that the case?
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:09:19 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
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> 8-)~ <<
> I was joking. That's why there's the smily face with
> the toungue out. 8-)
really, I always thought it was a gottie.
> >>It was in my quotes post. <<
>
> Oh, that was one I skipped.
>
> Funny, the Gaz doesn't describe things like that at
> all.
> K:KoA, which goes further out of its way to demonize
> the Thyatians (along with belittling every nation
> outside of Karameikos, except the Hin I guess)
> doesn't describe things like that at all.
Well maybe that has corrupted your thinking. I'm
generally old school (OD&D) so don't have or want KKoA
> (One side point: now that Ludwig's safely out of
> Karameikos, what's the point of saying "gosh, he was
> a member of the Storm Soldiers" - while he works
> with a Kobold. But, what's the point of saying
> "Stefan's an agent of Thanatos, in league with the
> Storm Soldiers"? Introduces a whole new campaign
> concept into Karameikos).
He anin't in my campaign. (AC985) so it is very much
an issue for me.
> "canon" contradicts that. It says that under the
> Thyatians, trade boomed and so the traders profited
> more. I've mentioned this. . .jeepers, how many
> times do I have to write something till it gets
> read? Probably I've mentioned this a dozen times, to
> the point where I was thinking people were getting
> sick of me mentioning it, I didn't think they
> wouldn't have read it. Page 4 of Gaz1, "The traders
> suffered a Thyatian tax, but the greater Thyatian
> interest meant that trade boomed and they profited
> more anyhow."
Well I do remember that, sorry for forgeting. But it
booms under stefan too I believe so does that maen it
just keeps getting better? or does it level off then
get better again (sharemarket anyone)?
> Same with something someone mentioned the other day
> but I decided not to repeat myself for the 6th+ time
> on that one, when he said "well, what Stefan said
> was 'autonomy' and that's why they revolted" - at
> the time, I repeat again on that one, Stefan was
> doing all he could (with Thincol tacitly cooperating
> by his silence on the subject) to mislead people
> into believing that Traladara was still beholden to
> Thyatis (thus the whole "Grand Duchy" deal) - one
> can look that up in the Gaz, too (this time I'm
> going to make folks work for it rather than giving
> the precise quote. Perhaps it will be more memorable
> if you have to find it yourself).
Actually I've concluded it was still beholden to
Thyatis, because autonomy is different to
independance, more on this later.
finish this one later.
Chris.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:00:46 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Beau Yarbrough <lby3@LBY3.COM>
Subject: Bye.
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This list has turned into a strokejob for the ego of several of its
participants, and I'm through. Whatever value this list had has vanished in
the last few weeks. I'm unsubscribing.
I wish all the best on most everyone here. I'll see you around some other
climes, perhaps.
BEAU
http://www.LBY3.com/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:59:16 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Houses of Darokin: Al-Azrad House (it's not a mirage!)
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Well, it's been a while, hasn't it? You .thought it would never come.
But, yes, it has finally arrived from "It's About Time Productions". The
(hopefully) long-awaited seventh installment in the Houses of Darokin
series, winner of the 2000 Nowack Award For My Own Stuff, is now
available at a mailbox near YOU. This time, we look at the seventh
largest House of Darokin, Al-Azrad!
A Brief History of Al-Azrad House
Al-Azrad House was founded in in 692 AC by Aramus Al-Azrad with the
proceeds of his brief adventuring career. As is name indicates, Aramus
was a "assimilated" Alasiyan. Over the next twenty years, Aramus built up
his trading family into a medium sized operation, mainly doing buisiness
in the northern Thyatian provinces and the Darokinian Duchy of Selencia,
though during times of relative peace he traded with the Alpatian
colonies as well. His descendants continued to build up the trading
house, and by 825 AC it was one of the largest trading families in the
Thyatian Empire. That would change.
The current head of the family, Kalindus Al-Azrad, was a strong supporter
of the Thyatians. When Al-Kalim began his campaign, Kalindus financed
many of the early expeditions against him. However, as city after city
fell before Al-Kalim's forces, Kalindus began to give up hope. Finally,
he "converted" to the Eternal Truth, taking the name Kalafi Al-Azrad, and
began to grudgingly support Al-Kalim.
After Al-Kalim left on is pilgramage, Kalafi took the first opportunity
to leave Ylaruam, as many of the tribal leaders remembered his efforts on
behalf of the Empire. When the tribal leaders began to plan an invasion
of the Republic of Selencia, Kalafi volunteered to travel there and work
as a spy. This was in 853 AC.
When he arrived, he immediately contacted Hallonica House. For the next
three years, he played the dangerous role of a double agent,
feedingharmless or misleading information to the Ylari. When the tribes
invaded in 856 AC, thanks to Kalafi's help, the Selencians were able to
push them back, and in 857 AC the Ylari were decisively defeated at the
Battle of Parsa, ending the war. Selencia, and later Darokin, would
maintain control of Parsa until 950 AC, when it was ceded back to Ylaruam
in return for an elimination of tariffs on Darokinian goods. Kalafi's
role was never discovered by the Ylari.
Ever since the time of Kalafi, Al-Azrad House has been a prominent player
in Selencia. It was one of the original Great Houses of Darokin, and its
alliance with Hallonica helped catapult that House to its high position.
In the present day, the Al-Azrad's are as Darokinian as any Selencian,
though they remain members of the Selencian branch of the Eternal Truth
rather than the Church of Darokin.
Al-Azrad House Assets
Al-Azrad does a great deal of trading with Ylaruam, obviously. It also
does some trade with Thyatis, though not nearly as much as in its early
days. Al-Azrad's domestic assets are concentrated in Selencia, though it
does maintain an office in Darokin City.
Al-Azrad House Relations
Corun House: Neutral. Al-Azrad and Corun Houses do not concern themselves
with one another.
Franich House: Neutral verging on friendly. Franich House often invests
in Al-Azrad ventures.
Hallonica House: Friendly. The two Houses are very strongly economically
and politically allied.
Linton House: Neutral verging on hostile. Linton House does not like
Al-Azrad House, and the two heads absolutely loathe each other.
Mauntea House: Neutral. Neither House has much to do with the other.
Pennydown House: Friendly. Pennydown stores often act as a domestic
outlat for Al-Azrad goods.
Toney House: Neutral. No important relations exist between these two
Houses.
Umbarth House: No special relationship exists between Umbarth and
Al-Azrad.
Al-Azrad House Personalities
Eshram Al-Azrad (11th/14th fighter/merchant, LN)
Eshram has been the head of his House for two decades. He is a calm man,
and is devoted to the Way of the Eternal Truth, though he is not
ostentatious about it. He has a striking figure, though his dark black
hair as begun to gray. He sits on the Selencia city council, and is very
active in civic activities. If the Selencian city council decides to hire
adventurers, he will likely be the one to contact them.
He is married, and as two children.
Alexandra Al-Azrad (5th level fighter, CG)
A Thyatian adventurer who moved to Selencia after retiring from active
adventuring, Alexandra met and fell in love with Esram Al-Azrad. The two
were married shortly thereafter. owever, their marriage is an unsteady
one that is often filled with strife, though they so far have eventually
made up after each major fight. One of the main soures of conflict is
that Alexandra remains a follower of Solarios (Ixion).
Alexandra has short brown hair and blue eyes.
Jamila Al-Azrad (3rd/8th level Cleric of Al-Kalim/merchant, N)
Jamila is Esram's younger sister, and is a member of Selencia's City
Council. She has black hair and brown eyes. As a cleric of Al-Kalim, she
often represents the Eternal Truth's viewpoint of the council. She once
was in a relationship with Garon Hallonica, another council member, but
the two had a falling out several years ago, and have hardly spoken
since.
Tahir Al-Azrad (6th/2nd level fighter/merchant, LN)
The elder of Eshram's children, Tahir is being groomed to inherit the
House. He is currently running Al-Azrad House's Thyatian trade, and has
proven to have a talent for it. Rumor has it that he and Elissa Mauntea,
Corwyn Mauntea's younger child and Mauntea House's Thyatian manager, are
in love.
Myriam Al-Azrad (0-level normal woman, NG)
Eshram's younger child, Myriam is something of a recluse, and is rarely
seen by anyone outside her family. Those who have seen her report that
she is a beauty, haven taken the best of her parent's features and
avoided the worst. She is currently engaged to Anders Hallonica, Bertram
Hallonica's heir.
Unknown to anyone, Myriam has actually been replaced by a simulacrum
(cast on her behalf by the friendly wizard Reginald of Crowlerd). The
real Myriam is currently adventuring, and has become a fourth level mage.
The last Reginald heard from her, she heading into the Blak Eagle Barony
on a rescue mission.
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:54:42 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
>> really, I always thought it was a gottie. <<
Heh, no. 8-)
>> Well maybe that has corrupted your thinking. I'm
generally old school (OD&D) so don't have or want KKoA <<
Well, like I said when the dude asked whether he should pick it (K:KoA & G:KoM) up, you're not really missing much if you have the Gaz (but if you don't, like him 'cause he was having trouble aquiring the Gaz's, then its certainly better than nothing). I got it before I knew what was in it.
>> Well I do remember that, sorry for forgeting. <<
It's ok. I was starting to feel I had mentioned such things too much as it was.
>> But it booms under stefan too I believe so does that maen it just keeps getting better? or does it level off then get better again (sharemarket anyone)? <<
Well, it doesn't say, so one could go either way. Probably the general trend was upwards, but of course there'd be good years and bad years in both eras (it's just that the "bad" years would be less bad than before and the "good" years would be better than prior good years).
As for whether it grew proportionately more or less in any given decade or era (pre- or post- Stefan, for example), it doesn't really give us much to go by. One could probably aptly make the case that without the roads and other infrastructure built during Stefan's reign, the prosperity/trade would have maxed out at some point (had it already? then being a question) - but that then also brings up the question of whether, since the place had reached the point where trade and traders had grown to the point where roads & patrols would be of utility and be financially practicable, Stefan was needed to build them or other authorities would have done that at that point regardless. Again, an open question IMO that people will answer for themselves depending upon their view (some will say "yes, Stefan was needed, he was a visionary who saw the need that others missed" or "no, folks have built roads and patrolled them in a variety of countries to facilitate travel between communities, !
!
no reason to think someone wouldn't have done so in Traladara when the time was ripe, it just happened to be Stefan.")
Trade & security (recovery) had grown on a seemingly slow but steady pace before the Thyatian conquest (thus the growth of Darokinian & Thyatian interest in the region, with the Thyatians taking the initiative first), then it "boomed" as a result of increased Thyatian interest - but still by AC 970 it wasn't seen as a "wealthy" region and thus was seen as tradable in exchange for a smaller (much smaller) but presumptively more wealthy place (Machetos), it continued to grow under Stefan but even in AC 1000 the assumption of the Gaz. is that Karameikos is a rustic, growing but young and still developing nation. The changes are (or seem to me to be anyhow) incremental, proceeding over time.
>> Actually I've concluded it was still beholden to Thyatis, because autonomy is different to independance, more on this later. <<
>> finish this one later. <<
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:17:33 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Al-Azrad House (it's not a mirage!)
Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> wrote:
>> Well, it's been a while, hasn't it? You .thought it would never come.But, yes, it has finally arrived from "It's About Time Productions". The (hopefully) long-awaited seventh installment in the Houses of Darokin series, <<
Yay! 8-)
>> A Brief History of Al-Azrad House <<
Vedddy Interesting twists, especially the backround for their reasons for leaving Ylaruam.
>> It was one of the original Great Houses of Darokin, and its
alliance with Hallonica helped catapult that House to its high position. <<
It might be interesting to know how the alliance developed (why the Hallonicans allied with the al-Azradi; if that's mentioned in an earlier description of the Hallonica House, I appologize for not remembering).
>> Al-Azrad House Assets
>> Al-Azrad does a great deal of trading with Ylaruam, obviously. It also does some trade with Thyatis, though not nearly as much as in its early days. Al-Azrad's domestic assets are concentrated in Selencia, though it does maintain an office in Darokin City. <<
What's their current relationship with Ylaruam like? Are they closer to them than before?
>> Al-Azrad House Personalities <<
They were cool. I noticed Tahir managed the House's trade with Thyatis, Does Eshram directly oversee their trade with Ylaruam? If not, then who supervises that aspect of the House's dealings?
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:37:30 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Aaron E Nowack <anowack@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Houses of Darokin: Al-Azrad House (it's not a mirage!)
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On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:17:33 -0500 Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
writes:
> Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> wrote:
> >> Well, it's been a while, hasn't it? You .thought it would never
> come.But, yes, it has finally arrived from "It's About Time
> Productions". The (hopefully) long-awaited seventh installment in
> the Houses of Darokin series, <<
>
> Yay! 8-)
And it almost didn't reach you. After it was about half done, my
computer started to crash, and I barely managed to save it before it was
lost. It might have been another six months if I hhadn't :)
> >> A Brief History of Al-Azrad House <<
>
> Vedddy Interesting twists, especially the backround for their
> reasons for leaving Ylaruam.
Thank you. That's something I've been trying to do, put an interesting
twist in each House. Sort of like that Dungeoncraft series from dragon:
"For each fact, make up a secret behind the fact."
>
> >> It was one of the original Great Houses of Darokin, and its
> alliance with Hallonica helped catapult that House to its high
> position. <<
>
> It might be interesting to know how the alliance developed (why the
> Hallonicans allied with the al-Azradi; if that's mentioned in an
> earlier description of the Hallonica House, I appologize for not
> remembering).
The alliance started when Kalafi helped Selencia in the war against
Ylaruam (from this post), and also to avoid a costly trade war (from
Gaz11).
> >> Al-Azrad House Assets
> >> Al-Azrad does a great deal of trading with Ylaruam, obviously. It
> also does some trade with Thyatis, though not nearly as much as in
> its early days. Al-Azrad's domestic assets are concentrated in
> Selencia, though it does maintain an office in Darokin City. <<
>
> What's their current relationship with Ylaruam like? Are they closer
> to them than before?
Much closer than in the early ninth century, definitely. Not exactly
best of friends, but a working relationship exists. Of course, if
Kalafi's role in the Selencia war was discovered, thhe relationship could
quickly collapse.
> >> Al-Azrad House Personalities <<
>
> They were cool. I noticed Tahir managed the House's trade with
> Thyatis, Does Eshram directly oversee their trade with Ylaruam? If
> not, then who supervises that aspect of the House's dealings?
Yes. Generally, if I don't have a specific NPC managing trade in an
area, it is handled directly by the head.
Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5930/
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:51:14 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Goblins to Castles
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001129160148.007de800@lby3.com>
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At 11/29/00 06:01 PM, Beau wrote:
> Another route is what I'm doing: As the characters rise in level,
> less of
>their time will be spent monster-whomping. (Otherwise, there will come a
>point where the Kingdom of Karameikos has to be invaded by CR 20 monsters
>just to keep the challenge level even.) Instead, they'll deal with
>long-term NPC foes -- who rise in power with them -- and shift their focus
>to affairs of state, ruling territories and so on.
One problem I've always had with D&D was the goblins the players may have
battled when they first started were laughable as they gained levels. I
really didn't care the idea that all the goblins disappeared and were
replaced vampires, gaints, dragons, or demons just because the players
outgrew them. Or worse, nobles! I wanted to have those creatures
available to me no matter the players' level. Especially when the humanoid
races are playing such an important part in the overall population of
Karameikos. The Orcs of Thar and Complete Book of Humanoids were great at
helping me keep monsters in step with the players. This allowed adventures
to be built around familiar monsters, new monsters, NPC foes, terrible
magical items, and stately affairs. One of my favorite things to fall back
on was the past. Digging through canon and inventing my own historical
facts to pull something dark from the past to place before the
players. I've always found the lower levels more interesting since it
seemed the higher in level players got the more difficult the DM's job
became to keep that since of challenge and adventure up without making the
game too political.
Reminds me. I've got to get to work on the tribes of humanoids within
Karameikos and the effect they have on the nation.
-Tim
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:29:10 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bye.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001129200046.007c2ec0@10.1.1.1>
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote:
> This list has turned into a strokejob for the ego of several of its
> participants, and I'm through. Whatever value this list had has vanished in
> the last few weeks. I'm unsubscribing.
> I wish all the best on most everyone here. I'll see you around some other
> climes, perhaps.
No beau! Don't leave!
You're one of the finest contributors to this list, at least IMHO. The
fact that we Mystarans have canon issues is not a reason to give it all
up!
Ethan
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:35:59 EST
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Larry E. Lamb" <Boondale@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Goblins to Castles
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Recently i was in a friends game. He had the 4 of us going through a
tri-level piremade like building that had passages with multable reverse
gravity spells set on walls, floors and celings. Now, the PC's levels wher
betwen 7 and 9. 2 of them wher Paladins (thay are brothers), a "shadow
warrior" and a custom class. We ended up using rope to find our way around
the place. The rope had a grapling hook on the end so it was some what easy
to see what direction the gravaty was going, or the lack of it for that
mater. Thats one way to keep high level PC's in check. All you need to do is
min/max the encounter. A lonly Orc (a 1 hit die creatcher) can be a
formadable opanent if he has weapons that give a raceal plus (why do elves
and dwareves be the only ones to have sutch items?) to attack/damage. Like
say he has a heavy crossbow thats made by his people thats the finest ever
seen. He is defending his home and so he can create kill zones rather easley.
He can set a snare, a pit lined with spikes (the spikes may or may not have
poison on them). Once the PC is in the trap the orc can come in for the kill
or just the PC. The only problem is not to over do it. It's easey to do that
if you min/max encounters.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:06:44 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: thibault sarlat <thibsylv@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject: Please Beau don't go!!!!!!!
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I am really sorry to see that you are leaving the list.
You know when the discussion goes on and on on a subject which i am not
interested in or don't like the way it is discussed i simply go back to my
vision of Mystara and that's the end of the story.
I think that " F.Nietche" (wrong spelling i know) said something about this:
"there is no better foe for the truth than people with convictions."
Let them have their convictions. You have yours. It is not a struggle, it's
just a kind of forum...But because it is a forum, they should let you speak
freely about your vision of mystara. Hey people it's a FANTASY world....You
cannot enforce your dreams on other people. Be more open minded. You don't
agree with someone, well it's the best way to have communication with him,
to SHARE, not to IMPOSE.
There is no canon Mystara. i used to considered Bruce's view on things as
canon but he is not a member of my campaign, so he reaaly is a help to share
ideas and to inspire me (or to disagree) but i don't see any point in
arguing with him (and let me say that i revere him sincerely anyway for all
the work he did for us).
I am very surprised to see that there is less and less free speech on this
list. Most members are US citizens and we all know how proud of their
constitution they are.I think there is an amendment which speaks something
about the right to speek freely and to think freely.
that's it for today, i have a big test in two hours, i must be going.
See you all , and see you soon Beau.
PS: maybe it would be time for the Ogre to step in....
Thibault Sarlat.
ICQ 16622177.
homepage http://www.mystara.com.bi
Join me at: clenarius@hotmail.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Beau Yarbrough <lby3@LBY3.COM>
To: <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 5:00 AM
Subject: [MYSTARA] Bye.
> This list has turned into a strokejob for the ego of several of
its
> participants, and I'm through. Whatever value this list had has vanished
in
> the last few weeks. I'm unsubscribing.
> I wish all the best on most everyone here. I'll see you around
some other
> climes, perhaps.
>
>
> BEAU
> http://www.LBY3.com/
>
> ********************************************************************
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>
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:29:24 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "G.P. Agosta" <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named Legendary Gaucho)
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Rob wrote:
>>> Nothing, since it's all downloadable for free, except, I think, the
>>> CD(s) that went with the Red Steel material.
>>
>> The maps arent there. You have to get the box for those. If you cant find
>> them, there are other maps of the region available on various web sites.
Yes, though the maps are also in the VotPA on Dragon Magazine.
--
Giampaolo Agosta
agathokles@libero.it
agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:31:55 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "G.P. Agosta" <agathokles@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Crater-effects on Darokin?
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Evil Genius wrote:
>>> Specifics aren't ever given in any product, up until the G:KoM boxed set, the map of which shows that Eriadna still stands, though pretty much everything else in that region is turned into ruins. <<
>>
>
> I checked the G:KoM when you mentioned that. You're right about the map, but the description for the Principality of Blackhill gives a population of 0 and seems to say that the Principality was destroyed. Isn't that the case?
The Principalities of Caurenze and Blackhill do not exist anymore, but
individual towns/villages may have survived.
--
Giampaolo Agosta
agathokles@libero.it
agosta@fusberta.elet.polimi.it
http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 03:20:04 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Goblins to Castles
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At 11/30/00 12:35 AM, Larry E. Lamb wrote:
>All you need to do is
>min/max the encounter.
I think I probably have gotten spoiled on the SAGA system. Monsters never
became something the players could dismiss. Just an encounter with a
single orc could mean the death of one of the characters if they didn't
take it seriously. I've not read the D&D 3E books completely so I've been
hoping to see if they've addressed having to move up to a different monster
because of levels. I'm guessing probably not but I still need to pick up
the Monster Manual.
Your and Beau's ideas are things I do feel a little forced into using due
to the system. The biggest reason I still like Mystara after all these
years is it because it had real diversity within races. There are some
real cultures behind them regardless if they human or demihuman. I think
some of that should have applied to humanoids (my personal favorite
foes). A Thyatian has a different outlook than a Glantrian so I felt a
goblin living in the forests of Karameikos should have that sort of
difference to one living in the Broken Lands as they both would be
different compared to one found on the Isle of Dawn. That and I don't
think TSR did DMs a service by just providing countless different
monsters. Great to have many to choose from when you need just the right
creature for what you've got planned.
Nothing against D&D in all its incarnations. Its just the language most
people understand. I guess its only a problem for me because I stick to
one area and like to have in-game reasons why an area once filled with
goblins is filled with trolls now :)
-Tim
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:25:06 -0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Phillip Jones <mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Bye.
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> This list has turned into a strokejob for the ego of several of
its
> participants, and I'm through. Whatever value this list had has vanished
in
> the last few weeks. I'm unsubscribing.
> I wish all the best on most everyone here. I'll see you around
some other
> climes, perhaps.
>
>
> BEAU
> http://www.LBY3.com/
I'd wish you'd reconsider, Beau. I've always considered your postings to be
a valuable source of ideas, both in your Karameikos campaign and in your
Five Shires one, and your contributions will be sorely missed. I know things
have rambled on a bit on certain topics (to which I am guilty of
contributing to, to some extent), but they are starting to settle down now
IMHO. Please reconsider, it would be really sad to see you go.
Phil
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:45:55 -0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Phillip Jones <mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
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OK, time to calm it down a bit I think. Discussing Mystaran topics is one
thing, but personal attacks is something completely different. If a
discussion is degenerating into a series of personal attacks, please let the
discussion die. Honestly, I don't care who started it, this sort of thing
should be done off list. There are almost 250 members of this list, and I
think some consideration should be shown to them, no matter how wounding the
comment.
Phil
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 02:30:43 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject: Re: Crater-effects on Darokin?
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.975557069.0.18691100@www.springmail.com>
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At 11:04 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
>
>I checked the G:KoM when you mentioned that. You're right about the map,
but the description for the Principality of Blackhill gives a population of
0 and seems to say that the Principality was destroyed. Isn't that the case?<
Wouldn't be the first error to have crept into G:KoM.
The way I see it, if the Council of Princes abolished the Principality of
Blackhill (based on there being no prince, and most of the principality
being destroyed), then the population figure given is correct- there being
no residents of said "principality". I figure the principality was listed
there merely as a footnote for those people who owned Gaz3 and earlier
products, and weren't clear on what had happened to Blackhill and Caurenze.
Based on the map, then, I factored Eriadna in as one of the "free"
territories, and kept it in my Great Crater Mini-Gaz. Of course, you're
more than free to assume that Eriadna was destroyed in your own campaigns.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:14:31 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard?= <hoc@NVG.NTNU.NO>
Subject: Re: Bye.
Comments: To: Beau Yarbrough <lby3@LBY3.COM>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001129200046.007c2ec0@10.1.1.1>
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It is a sad thing when good listmembers are forced to leave
this list because of the flamatory attitudes developing here recently.
I have been avoiding most of the threads of this type, so I'm not about to
distribute blame for what happened.
But clearly, it is time to reconsider hasty remarks and think about what
types of discussions that are beneficial to this list.
Mystarans are a dying breed. We cannot afford to lose any.
H�vard.
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Beau Yarbrough wrote:
> This list has turned into a strokejob for the ego of several of its
> participants, and I'm through. Whatever value this list had has vanished in
> the last few weeks. I'm unsubscribing.
> I wish all the best on most everyone here. I'll see you around some other
> climes, perhaps.
>
>
> BEAU
> http://www.LBY3.com/
>
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>
Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no)
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc
"God created man in his image, and then man returned the
favour." -Voltaire
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:07:36 EST
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Brant Casavant <Demyelination@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Goblins to Castles
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In a message dated 11/30/00 1:15:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
<< One problem I've always had with D&D was the goblins the players may have
battled when they first started were laughable as they gained levels. I
really didn't care the idea that all the goblins disappeared and were
replaced vampires, gaints, dragons, or demons just because the players
outgrew them. >>
3rd Edition did a bit to fix that--now most humanoid races (goblins, orcs,
etc.) can also have classes. Orcs suddenly become more more deadly, even to
mid- to high-level PCs when there are five of them and they consist of a
ranger, three fighters and a cleric.
- Brant
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:39:17 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bye.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0011301209120.26856-100000@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no>
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On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, [iso-8859-1] H=E5vard wrote:
> But clearly, it is time to reconsider hasty remarks and think about what
> types of discussions that are beneficial to this list.
In short form:
Please, people, keep the egos under control. Mystara is a communal world,
and naturally we all have our own interpretations - some more than others.
Just because someone has a different interpretation doesn't mean that he
or she is "wrong" in a sense.=20
There is no "right and wrong" (Except Forgotten Realms - that's always
wrong ^_^)
I've been on the list for about.. jeez.. I don't even remember how long.
I've seen tempers flare, and it's always about canon. Canon, canon, canon.
I admit - I'm a canonophile, I've spent hundreds of dollars on building a
damn near complete collection. I'll rail against changing canonical norms
in net-published "unofficial" products. However, I've learned that on the
list, when someone presents an alternative viewpoints (an Evil Stephan?
Magic-Wielding Dwarves? Another meaningless Thyatis/Alphatia debate?) That
arguement is futile. If they want to use that in their games, then so be
it. Let it go.=20
We're a dying breed people. Even after all of canon is released on PDF, I
doubt anyone but us (or completists) will download it. If anything we
should hold tighter to our core. Build on that. Show TSR that Mystara is
still vital and alive. Not a fractional squabbling mess akin to the
humanoid tribes of the broken lands.=20
But if the Immortals deem that to happen, can I be Kol?=20
Ethan
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:53:01 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Crater-effects on Darokin?
>> I figure the principality was listed there merely as a footnote for those people who owned Gaz3 and earlier products, and weren't clear on what had happened to Blackhill and Caurenze. <<
Ok, well that's certainly a reasonable answer.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:21:22 EST
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Dennis Pascale <ShyManinNJ@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bye.
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A couple of people have already stated it, so I'll just add my 2 cents in. I
have to agree with Ethan, this list is a list of fans trying to keep a great
campaign world alive However, we all have to understand that each gaming
group is different and there are no right and wrongs. I've been on this list
for a couple of months now and I rarely have much to say because of all the
sarcasm and "flames" passed back and forth. However, I have stayed on the
list because it's about a world I love and a lot of you have some great ideas
and even if I don't use them to the letter, it at least plants the seeds for
other ideas that I can develope. I work in retail and now with the holidays,
I have less and less time to prepare games for my group. This list can be a
blessing at times. I'd hate to see quality people with good ideas leave
because of it. I don't use the 3E conversions, cause I don't play in 3E, but
I still read the posts cause it keeps me informed and maybe I will use it in
the future. Which land is better, stronger? It's all relative. I actually
needed to take a step back. I went the reverse and actually have had my
players go back to the old D&D rules using the boxed sets and Rules
Cyclopedia. We stopped using 2E. I then made a point of tracking down all
the gazeteers and a lot of old games (Including WotI boxed set) and I
actually redid my entire campaign. I started everyone in the year 1000 AC
and plan to "re-run" the world a bit. I had the misfortune to start Mystara
when I began 2E and the ill-fated attempt to move Mystara into that area. I
was left with 2 box sets and still little info on the world at large. Now,
armed with an almost complete collection of games and reference material,
plus the great ideas I've gotten from this list, I plan on doing the game the
justice it deserves. Will the world events unfold like TSR had them? Will
Stephan be good or evil? Who knows? All I know is I'm gonna have fun with
it and let's face it that's why we play this game. Heck, maybe Karameikos
will never become a kingdom. Maybe magic will be drained completely from the
world. TSR gives us canon info to get us started, the rest is up to us and
how far our imaginations will take us. Don't stifle your creativity, but
also please don't stifle someone else's either. Happy Gaming Everyone! :)
--Dennis
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:29:30 +0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gm@mail.dsl-only.net>
From: Mike Harvey <gm@DSL-ONLY.NET>
Subject: Re: Goblins to Castles
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001129193039.009f00b0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy Haney wrote:
> One problem I've always had with D&D was the goblins the players may have
> battled when they first started were laughable as they gained levels.
I agree completely. In this respect, older editions of D&D don't
scale very well. D&D 3e takes sort of a compromise -- characters
still turn into supermen, but now monsters are allowed to as well. To
me this seems like primarily a game-system issue. I tend to favor
systems (like Fudge or Gurps) that allow characters to develop
without "outgrowing" monsters.
High level PCs pose another problem. What if the PCs decide to clean
all the goblins out of Karameikos? It should not be a difficult feat
for name level characters to track down and destroy practically every
humanoid stronghold in the kingdom, and it would impress Stefan. OTOH,
why haven't name-level characters already done this? "Yes I know
goblins burned your village, but I can't help you. It wouldn't be
fair, I have to pick on someone my own size..." One possibility here
is that they multiply too fast, but that can't be true or they'd
overrun the world unless high level characters opposed them.
> I wanted to have those creatures available to me no matter
> the players' level. Especially when the humanoid races are playing
> such an important part in the overall population of Karameikos.
Goblinoids have always been one of my favorite foes. At low levels,
they are taken on individually or in small groups. At high levels,
goblinoid armies lay siege to castles and raid outlying
settlements, or put together huge armies to invade the land.
Mike
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Harvey
gm@dsl-only.net (formerly bing@iccom.com)
http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:31:32 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Caroletti <scarole@TIN.IT>
Subject: Daunting World/ Favourite Nation
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> Now, the Karimari are a setting that some might look at with admiration, as an example of good people leading good lives doing nice things in harmony with nature, blah blah - but I'm not sure there's a single vote for it as anyone's favorite place (I'm open to being corrected on this) in Mystara
Correct. No vote for Karimari. But only 80 persons on this list have voted, so...
VOTE! E-mail me personally. I have collected votes for 10 months, now, so if
you have already voted, and do not want to change the vote, don't e-mail me. If
you don't remember, ask me. So...VOTE, come on, everybody! Wait...maybe
somebody sent their votes through normal mail...8-)
Iulius Sergius Scaevola
Captain et al
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:52:35 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Caroletti <scarole@TIN.IT>
Subject: Of Leaving Members and Personal Attacks
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People take themselves too seriously.
This is a stupid campaign world of a stupid game. All that we discuss of
has less
value than [insert useless item of your choice], so why bother so much?
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:51:58 +0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Solmyr <solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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Chris Furneaux wrote:
>
> Ludwig *is* from Hattias, and you have to be Hattian
> to be a storm soldier. Both must have Hattian blood to
> have Ludwig be 100% hattian and thus be pure blood
> Hattian. This is potentially important because the
Actually, Ludwig is not 100% Hattian. His mother was Bretonia Korrigan,
daughter of Celia Kerendas. Thus Ludwig has at least Kerendan and
possibly also Thyatian ancestry in him.
--
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:11:44 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject: Re: Daunting World
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> >>>I'm not saying the world has to be some apocalyptic nightmare, but
OtoH,
> it does seem to me sometimes that people look at game world development as
> an excersise in utopia building - IMO, the goal of game world development
> is to generate adventure possibilities <<
>
> I read your post, misspellings and all. I disagree with it, that's
all.
> I guess that's too difficult a concept for you to grasp.
> Christ, you can be an ass.
>
That's very uncalled for. If you don't care to continue a discussion, just
don't continue it. Calling someone a mule and taking the Lord's name in
vain is only going to irritate people.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:07:36 +0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Solmyr <solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI>
Subject: Re: Savage Coast (was: Gaucho now named LegendaryGaucho)
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Rob wrote:
>
> I think Saragon is Moorish Spain (Ylari influence, into science and
> technology). Gargona I thought of as Renaissance Italy or something
> thereabouts, although the names are Spanish not Italian.
>
Gargo�a might be Aragon or even Sicily (which was ruled by the House of
Aragon for some time).
--
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:16:33 +0200
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Solmyr <solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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Phillip Jones wrote:
>
> And, of course the most damning evidence. Stefan has lightning bolts
> tattooed on his (please insert location here). :)~
>
Private parts? :)
--
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:33:28 +0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Gordon McCormick <gmcc@ESATCLEAR.IE>
Subject: Re: Of Leaving Members and Personal Attacks
In-Reply-To: <3A2685D3.800DAD41@tin.it>; from scarole@TIN.IT on Thu, Nov 30,
2000 at 05:52:35PM +0100
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On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:52:35PM +0100, Caroletti wrote:
> People take themselves too seriously.
> This is a stupid campaign world of a stupid game.
Succinctly put!
gordon
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:25:14 EST
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Larry E. Lamb" <Boondale@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Goblins to Castles
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I dont use the 3erd edition, i dont have any of the book for it yet. Im not
sure if im going to like the new system, but im not going to put it down till
i at lest look at it.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:45:36 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Herve Musseau <hmusseau@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: 1016 almanac in PDF
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Okay, I've uploaded the PDF file (and the full download for the rtf files too)
on my website (in France), and linked to it. You an now access them, I tried
and it worked (though it certainly won't download as fast for you as for me,
with the direct cable access).
I suggest people who want to put it on their websites as well (as a sidenote,
thank you to everyone who offered me space on their websites).
=====
___________________________________________________________
Herve Musseau <hmusseau@yahoo.com>
http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/
__________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:56:26 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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--- Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET> wrote:
> Just because they promote racial purity does not
> mean they all have to be
> racially pure. Both the KKK and the Nazis were good
> examples of this
> contradiction in belief and practice.
good point. It would help to be racially pure, but not
totally vital. It would also be possible to have
stefan or Ludwig have corupted versions of this
idioligy. Ludwig could believe for example that *he*
is the gratest to ever live and the Hattians are just
continually showing their weakness by inaction against
the Thyatians. Thus Ludwig leaves them to their
misrible fate, but takes a hate for thyatians, which
attracts other Hattians (why is stefan the only one
with people in tow, his people brought their people
who brought their people etc.)
:-)
Chris.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:54:02 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Geoff Gander <au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Please Beau don't go!!!!!!!
Thib wrote:
>PS: maybe it would be time for the Ogre to step in....
I was monitoring the whole Karameikos/Stefan discussion for the past
couple of weeks, and there were a couple of times when I was _almost_
ready to step in, but the parties to the discussions apologised, clarified
their arguments, so I thought about the matter, and decided to take a
chance and let the participants police themselves. On the whole, we seem
to work well on these sort of things. Most of the time.
While I am happy that the whole matter was conducted in a quite mature
matter, I think it appropriate to remind everyone that:
1. Profane language of any sort is not tolerated. Ever.
2. Insults to one's intelligence or other attributes, and generally being
a complete and utter pain in the gluteus maximus when conducting
discussions, is not tolerated either.
3. Should you be the recipient of such language, or feel that you are being
"goaded" into responding, I would ask you to refrain from doing so. Not
only does it needlessly perpetuate flame wars (or start them), it makes
the participants look stupid. I'm sure none of us want to appear so in
front of our peers....
If you feel you absolutely *must* respond to an insult, do it over private
email. Not here.
I don't want to keep track of "offenders", and eject them, because I respect
everyone here too much to do so, but if the interests of the MML come under
fire, if everyone's enjoyment of the topics is diminished, then perhaps I
should consider it.
I hope I make myself clear.
Geoff
--
Geoff Gander, BA 97
Cartographer/Game Designer/Government Peon
Carnifex Loremaster
au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:10:36 +0100
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Caroletti <scarole@TIN.IT>
Subject: Re: Of Leaving Members and Personal Attacks
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Gordon McCormick wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:52:35PM +0100, Caroletti wrote:
> > People take themselves too seriously.
> > This is a stupid campaign world of a stupid game.
>
> Succinctly put!
>
> gordon
Are you trying to make a compliment? In this case, I am offended and I
menace
to leave the list if you don't retire it. Please consider an attachment
with a dozen
of common-used bad words in the language you prefer. If you dare me to
continue
this verbal fight, I will attack you with the help of a dozen of Chaotic
Evil clones of
Stefan Karameikos. And if you want to dispute the fact that I created a
CE clone
of a LG character, and thus this is impossible by the rules, I will point
that in the
Dragon Annual 1876, Charles Darwin has suggested several variations to
the Clone
spell to use in the first edition of the D&D game (the true one, that was
invented by
the original scottish agronomist Jethro Tull, and not the 73rd edition
that was
published by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson), and I use that material in my
campaign,
and a couple of physicians from Stanford claim that this Dragon Annual
was
written so many years ago that it could be considered Canon, so I AM in
fact able
to tell you that I AM RIGHT and thus I CAN CREATE CHAOTIC CLONES OF
STEFAN! YES!!! I CAN!!! I CAN!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
[sickening sickling on the keyboard, while listening to Beethoven's "Ode
to Joy"]
Iulius Sergius Scaevola
Captain of the XXth Cohort
Port Lucinius, Thyatis
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:00:06 -0000
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Phillip Jones <mr-dead@LEMMING-LAND.FSNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
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> Phillip Jones wrote:
> >
> > And, of course the most damning evidence. Stefan has lightning bolts
> > tattooed on his (please insert location here). :)~
> >
> Private parts? :)
The position of said tattoos are believed to differ from campaign to
campaign. It is through this the legend of "Stefan and the moving tattoos"
were born. :)~
Phil
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:53:08 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Wizards Shopper <dereka@UNISERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers
In-Reply-To: <3A2685AE.6F4DC2A6@kolumbus.fi>
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Quoting Solmyr <solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI>:
> Chris Furneaux wrote:
> >
> > Ludwig *is* from Hattias, and you have to be Hattian
> > to be a storm soldier. Both must have Hattian blood to
> > have Ludwig be 100% hattian and thus be pure blood
> > Hattian. This is potentially important because the
>
> Actually, Ludwig is not 100% Hattian. His mother was Bretonia Korrigan,
> daughter of Celia Kerendas. Thus Ludwig has at least Kerendan and
> possibly also Thyatian ancestry in him.
Exactly. Otherwise Stefan wouldn't be related to him.
-Auld Skald
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:23:13 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Wizards Shopper <dereka@UNISERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Daunting World II
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.975554577.0.84442800@www.springmail.com>
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Quoting Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>:
> >>> they can't just cut down Senator Palpatane and end the threat to the
> Republic, they've got to outmaneuver him politically, not just by force
> <<<
>
> >> Someone should have told that to Luke Skywalker. <<
>
> Ahh, but by then he wasn't Senator Palpatane, which just goes to show
> what can happen when things get out of hand. The guy starts
> lightning-bolting you, and your dad has to throw him down the chimney.
>
> As Barney Fife might have said "gotta nip it in the bud, Andy".
E.G., I think you're taking a whole lotta' things too seriously. Sometimes you
can let a joke go by. Honest. This need to always get the last word to
justify your view is really tiresome. Other people /do/ respect your view and
your right to hold it. Sometimes, I think you end up beating people over the
head with your views, even as articulately as they are formed, we /are/ allowed
to have contrary views and your ability to drown out those views with your well-
reasoned arguments are notwithstanding.
It's getting to the point where people don't want to hang around for your near-
monologues.
I had to take a break from the list for a few days and just let people get
their last words, so some threads would die a natural death. It /has/ irked me
to just let go, because I hate to let a good argument get lost purposelessly,
but the good of the many, and all that.
It worked for me, and YMMV, just please give it a try and see how it goes.
Best,
Derek
(a.k.a. Auld Skald)
P.S. - If you posted half as much as you do, your view would /still/ never be
lost. You argue too well. (My 2�.)
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:24:20 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: SteelAngel <edeneau@ANTARES.PHYS.CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Of Leaving Members and Personal Attacks
In-Reply-To: <3A26B43C.CB084999@tin.it>
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[snip]
Hmm. I wonder what they are doing to the troops nowadays. Clones and evil
laughing used to be the purveyance of respectable evil glantrian warlocks,
not common Thyatian soldiers! ^_^
Ethan
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:28:43 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: cloning stefan
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Now I like this scenario
> I will attack you with the help
> of a dozen of Chaotic
> Evil clones of
> Stefan Karameikos.
<snip>
> several variations to
> the Clone
> spell <snip> so I AM in
> fact able
> to tell you that I AM RIGHT and thus I CAN CREATE
> CHAOTIC CLONES OF
> STEFAN! YES!!! I CAN!!! I CAN!!!
> MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!
> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!
> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Campaign sergestion:
At some point stefan is cloned. The clone picks off
the original stefan but has been cloned with a
different alignment.
thus: good stefan ---> evil stefan.
Stefan is cloned at some point and is replaced by
evil stefan who becomes an agent of thantos and seeks
to cause havoc thoughout Karameikos and the knowen
world (a.k.a. james situation). The clone could be
evil for one of two reasons : the clone spell, or is
driven mad from co-existing with stefan before he
killed him and seeks revenge on the world etc.
This is useful if one wants to use the evil stefan
idea in a campaign and has had stefan as a
"definitive" good guy. It could add an extra twist to
good PC's efforts as they could attempt to restore a
good stefan to power, which finding out how to do is a
campaign in itself.
For evil PC's they could be the culprits who instigate
the evil stefan and ensure his acceptance to power
Chris.
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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:58:03 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Jeff Daly <jdaly@FRIEND.LY.NET>
Subject: Re: Daunting World II
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wizards Shopper" <dereka@UNISERVE.COM>
> This need to always get the last word to
> justify your view is really tiresome.
I realize you also complimented him in your post, and your comments were not
entirely a flame. However, its a bit hypocritical to make a post accusing
someone of trying to get the last word. Seriously. Think about it.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:11:00 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Chris Furneaux <c_furneaux@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Conquerers
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> >> And it is arguable that the rebellion under
> stefan was caused by oppressive cruelty or taxation,
> at least on stefan's part. <<
opps... I forgot the not. It should have said not
caused.
> >> Did stefan take it, I don't think so. Did he want
> it
> taken? IMO no. <<
>
> To those who's lands get taken by men Stefan
> apointed and Stefan empowered, it would likely seem
> little different.
I know, was that the point I was making, no. Given
your views on effect and intent, I understand what you
are saying. Let me ask you this however, does stefan
need these men to stay in power? IMO he empowers them
but they also empower him and undermining his power
base is not smart. can he can be good and do good even
if he knows he is surported by evil people, well I
think so. but I won't argue with another opinion.
> >> It appears he may have learnt his lesson. Is this
> a
> step to do thigs right next time, IMO yep. <<
>
> Wow, and it only took him 40 years.
Maybe not. It dosn't say weather he rectified his
early mistakes or not. We know some he didn't. even if
he didn't rectify them he may have known better next
time, and thus may have been doing it better for many
years. The fact is we don't know so there is no need
to just discredit it like that.
Chris.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:31:35 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Eric Anondson <xen@VISI.COM>
Subject: Favourite Nation
In-Reply-To: <20001130164156.DA6D48254@breg.mc.mpls.visi.com>
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>> Now, the Karimari are a setting that some might look at with admiration, as
>> an example of good people leading good lives doing nice things in harmony
>> with nature, blah blah - but I'm not sure there's a single vote for it as
>> anyone's favorite place (I'm open to being corrected on this) in Mystara
> Correct. No vote for Karimari. But only 80 persons on this list have voted,
> so... VOTE! E-mail me personally. I have collected votes for 10 months, now,
> so if you have already voted, and do not want to change the vote, don't e-mail
> me. If you don't remember, ask me. So...VOTE, come on, everybody! Wait ...
> maybe somebody sent their votes through normal mail...8-)
I really didn't think the voting would still be open. The only vote I have
seen go on as long is the U.S. presidential election. Have you even begun
the recounts yet? I'm sure when you get to the manual hand recounting you
could find that someone voted for Karimari in there somehow.
Anyway, since the voting is still open on this, I think I would toss my vote
for the Free City of Dunwick of the Savage Coast. It's the crossroads of
the civilized nations of the coast with a flavor of Casablanca. At least
that's what I see in it.
Eric Anondson
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:00:02 -0500
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Evil Genius <jruhlconob@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Stefan of the Storm Soldiers <off list>
Comments: To: solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI
>> Actually, Ludwig is not 100% Hattian. His mother was Bretonia Korrigan, daughter of Celia Kerendas. Thus Ludwig has at least Kerendan and possibly also Thyatian ancestry in him. <<
>> Exactly. Otherwise Stefan wouldn't be related to him. <<
Just to make a completely worthless pedantic remark, actually Stefan could be related to Ludwig and Ludwig be 100% Hattian, if Stefan's mother was Hattian, and Ludwig's mother or father's sister. Or whatever.
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:08:45 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: Dave Keyser <dave@PALMCHIP.COM>
Organization: Palmchip
Subject: Re: Tome of Mystara News
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Jennifer Guerra wrote:
> Dear Tome of Mystara Readers,
>
> It is with regret that I must inform you that Tome of Mystara will not
> publish for Winter 2000, due to time constraints on the part of the editors,
> as well as other, internal, issues.
>
> Issue #6 has not yet been rescheduled for publication. We'll keep you
> informed of any schedules or changes. In the mean time, if you have any
> questions, please feel free to write me at the address above.
>
> We do thank those of you who were considering contributing, and apologize
> for the inconvenience. We look forward to working with you again in the near
> future.
>
> Thanks, and sorry.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jennifer Guerra
> Editor, Tome of Mystara e-Zine
>
> http://www.geocities.com/mystaratome/
>
Jennifer,
I really appreciate the work you have done in making the tome. I just
went ahead and submitted my entry for the poll for favorite campaign moments,
just under the deadline. Hope you like it, and I hope to see issue 6 out at some
point.
<If you didn't get the poll submission, let me know, it is a bit different than
what I expect most people submitted.>
Dave Keyser
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:34:23 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Goblins to Castles
In-Reply-To: <B0002981660@dancing-bare.dsl-only.net>
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At 11/30/00 02:29 AM, Mike Harvey wrote:
>I agree completely. In this respect, older editions of D&D don't
>scale very well. D&D 3e takes sort of a compromise -- characters
>still turn into supermen, but now monsters are allowed to as well. To
>me this seems like primarily a game-system issue. I tend to favor
>systems (like Fudge or Gurps) that allow characters to develop
>without "outgrowing" monsters.
Glad to hear 3E is at least addressing the issue :) I have thought about
looking into Gurps since I seem to favor skill systems over level
systems. I just haven't read enough 3E to get the complete picture.
>High level PCs pose another problem. What if the PCs decide to clean
>all the goblins out of Karameikos? It should not be a difficult feat
>for name level characters to track down and destroy practically every
>humanoid stronghold in the kingdom, and it would impress Stefan. OTOH,
>why haven't name-level characters already done this? "Yes I know
>goblins burned your village, but I can't help you. It wouldn't be
>fair, I have to pick on someone my own size..." One possibility here
>is that they multiply too fast, but that can't be true or they'd
>overrun the world unless high level characters opposed them.
That's one of my issues. Another is monsters like the medusa. Every time
I read the entry I can't help thinking there's just one! It can drive me
crazy if I let it thinking of all the monsters that seem more suited to a
once in a lifetime encounter rather than somewhere, they exist as an entire
race. Maybe if the humanoids had been scalable from the start...
>Goblinoids have always been one of my favorite foes. At low levels,
>they are taken on individually or in small groups. At high levels,
>goblinoid armies lay siege to castles and raid outlying
>settlements, or put together huge armies to invade the land.
Have you ever checked out any of the material for Birthright? I believe
most of the humanoids (goblins, orcs, etc.) are considered members of the
same race either at different stages of growth or something along those
lines. I always thought that would fit in with Mystara very well since
humanoids were at one time a single race.
-Tim
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:44:40 -0600
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Timothy R. Haney" <trhaney@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Bye.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10011301021360.8508-100000@antares.phys.clem
son.edu>
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At 11/30/00 09:39 AM, SteelAngel wrote:
>Not a fractional squabbling mess akin to the
>humanoid tribes of the broken lands.
First a stab at the Forgotten Realms and now comparing humanoids to list
members! You go to far, sir! :) I thought he had gotten upset when I took
one of his posts and started a different thread about humanoids under
D&D. I kept wondering about where I might have stepped on some toes. I
guess I forgot about the Karameikos saga.
-Tim
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:16:59 -0800
Reply-To: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sender: Mystara <MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
From: "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" <strawberry@JAMM.COM>
Organization: strawberryJAMM Designs
Subject: Re: "Dead Duck" Adventures
In-Reply-To: <3A2023D8.11540.5308AD5@localhost>
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*Sigh*
I guess Rob is right, that the area mentioned in the following is a
"Dead Duck" for adventure ideas if no one else on the MML has any
ideas they're willing to toss out for consideration.
I would like to say thanks to both Phillip and Timothy for the
suggestions they made -- they were definitely in the right realm and,
as always, I've found myself thinking of ways to clip out the parts I
like and combine them with other ideas.
Jenni
On 25 Nov 2000, at 20:40, Jenni A.M. Merrifield wrote:
> Okay first, some personal administrivia:
> -=-=-
> To Rich D., Rich W. and Derek A.:
>
> Try to ignore this thread will ya? Thanks!
>
> Oh yeah -- and don't read any further either. ;-)
> -=-=-
>
>
> On 25 Nov 2000, at 10:08, Rob wrote:
> > Why do you say that??? I think there is every need for a Roman Empire in
> > Known World - it makes good adventure material being the main one. (Unlike,
> > say, Alphatia, or Ethengar, or the Atruaghin area, which are all to lesser
> > or greater extents dead ducks as far as adventures are concerned. At least,
> > my adventures :).
>
> Rob's comment about "Alphatia, or Ethengar, or the Atruaghin area"
> being "dead ducks" in the adventure area, caught my attention,
> primarily because I have a desire to introduce the PC's in my
> upcoming campaign to the Atruaghin Clans.
>
> My as yet mostly undeveloped plans are to have them in a shipwreck
> off the south coast of the Atruaghin region where they will be
> rescued by a Turtle Clan whaling expedition, quite probably meeting
> the "unusual" Turtle Clan NPC from the Gazetteer.
>
> Once they've "interacted" with the Clans I expect them to move on
> to Sind and further west (I have CoM). This could be either by sea
> or land, it doesn't matter.
>
> I've had a few thoughts about what to let them stumble into/across
> while "visiting" the clans -- eg: a run-in with the Viper clan is
> definitely in the cards. I have plans to introduce "Dream Catchers"
> as a magical device of the Atruaghin's, and I own a special deck of
> cards called "Spirit Path Cards" which are similar to Tarot cards in
> some ways, though they are not the same, and I intend to have them
> come into play in some manner as well.
>
> Other than that, I haven't had any further ideas -- though,
> admittedly, I also haven't focused on trying to find any because that
> part of the campaign is further off from what I have been focussing
> on (namely Minrothad, Darokin, the Shires and Irendi).
>
> I just thought I'd toss this message out and see if I couldn't cull
> some ideas that I can stea... uh, borrow from other innovative list
> members, to be merged with whatever other ideas I end up having
> rattling around in my brain. ;-)
>
> A few "ground rules" relating to my own campaign for those
> considering ideas to suggest:
>
> 1) My game is set in 1005 AC, but I have /no/ /plans/ to run WotI. I
> have also "darkened" the flavour of many regions I plan to use
> already -- especially the Minrothad Guilds (which I've expanded with
> Lankhmar source material), but also the Shires and Darokin to some
> degree. Irendi still has a Hawaiian / Polynesian flavour but it's
> more serious in nature than the Gaz would immediately suggest.
>
> 2) Atruaghin is not a "planned stop" for the PC's -- it is an
> unexpected "detour" on their way to tracking down something/someone
> else. So, anything that is to befall them while in the region needs
> to be something that they just can't ignore and continue on their
> merry way without some noticeable repercussions.
>
> 3) I have no plans to let them discover the "world elevator" ... at
> least not at this point. Later maybe ... if I ever get my hands on
> the HW boxed set. ;-)
>
> 4) The group contains four 25 to 28 year old "real roleplayers" and
> one 36 year old "munchkin" (my husband). The role players will
> (obviously) respond well to solid storyline/role developing "hooks".
> The "munchkin" will be bored out of his skull if there isn't at
> /least/ one large or two small combat related encounters in a
> session.
>
> Okay guys (and gals) let your ideas flow. I'm interested in
> hearing anything, even "stupid ideas", because you never know what
> will trigger a "great idea" ;-)
>
> Jenni A. M. Merrifield
> -=> strawberryJAMM <=-
> --
> Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs
> strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/
> <-------------------------------------------------------->
> God said: "Let their be Light."
> Then he created Earth, vegtables, animals, man and woman.
> Then God thought: "You know, I should create things I *like*!"
> So God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!"
>
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--
Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs
strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/jamm/
<-------------------------------------------------------->
God said: "Let their be Light."
Then he created Earth, vegtables, animals, man and woman.
Then God thought: "You know, I should create things I *like*!"
So God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!"
********************************************************************
The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp
The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/
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