* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? Started at 03-06-08 10:48 PM by BackToBasics Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1000716 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : BackToBasics Date : 03-06-08 10:48 PM Thread Title : Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? Greetings to all, First time poster here, and ive been meaning to join for a bit. Sadly, its nearly coincided with the passing of Mr Gygax Much love and respect to the original and greatest DM... :weep: So, ive decided to return to RPGs, specifically D&D, after tiring of warhammer and other mini tabletop games. I have the 3.5 books but after reading them through, i knew i wouldnt enjoy playing or dming it, and theyve done well enough as expensive paper weights for my desk... i do love minis and thats why i succumbed to buying 3.5, i wish i had just read them thru at a borders first... So, i guess im going to join the ranks of the old school gamers and not give in to hoping beyond hope that 4e is any better and theres only one solution, i have to play basic D&D. I grew up on mentzer and remember it vaguely, but after reading thru a few sites and posts, i wonder about the other versions... i dl'ed rules compendium and didnt like it... (so i wont hunt down a hard copy) so i think thats a point against mentzer. i do like the cover art of moldvay, but dont know anything else about it, and ive heard great things about holmes. however, as i cant dl'ed those versions, and b4 i dl menzter... i thought id ask you grognards here as your opinions on the versions... specifically, which has less errata, plays more smoothly, easier layout, better atmosphere and graphics, and more iconic monsters (if the lists are different... oh i noticed there are no shamblers in the RC or creature catalog) are the spells lists different in any of the versions? any kind people out there want to chime in and cast a vote for their fav version???? A respectful newbie of old gaming, Mar -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : kipper Date : 03-08-08 11:09 AM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? I have not played all the rules you are asking about, but I do have the Mentzer books, and Moldvay/Cook&Marsh, so I thought I'd weigh in with my opinion. The "Rules Compendium" is basically (about 95%+) the same as the four Mentzer rulebooks (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master), just collected together in one volume. I personally prefer the Moldvay Basic and Cook/Marsh Expert over Mentzer. Mentzer is a bit more logically laid out and easier to follow for newbies, but on the other hand I find Moldvay/Cook&Marsh a bit simpler and easier to run (IMHO) because it's got fewer rules (eg. no weapon specialisation). But if you limit yourself to the Mentzer Basic and Expert books this will not be as much of an issue. From my understanding, Holmes is the most difficult of the group for a newbie to understand and follow, but it has also got a very large selection of monsters compared to the other "Basic" books. If you are looking for something to download, what I would primarily recommend for you at this point is to try Labyrinth Lord (link found in my signature). It's very similar to the Moldvay/Cook&Marsh rulebooks, and with the added benefit that it's completely FREE to download and use :D. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-08-08 03:22 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? i dl'ed rules compendium and didnt like it... (so i wont hunt down a hard copy) so i think thats a point against mentzer. The Rules Cyclopedia and the Mentzer edition are almost the same, except that the Cyclopedia comes in a single volume and integrates optional subsystems from Mentzer-era supplementes (specifically, the skill subsystem from the Gazetteers). i do like the cover art of moldvay, but dont know anything else about it, and ive heard great things about holmes. I don't know much about Moldvay's version, except it should be fairly similar to Mentzer's. Holmes' version is very different. specifically, which has less errata, plays more smoothly, easier layout, better atmosphere and graphics, and more iconic monsters (if the lists are different... oh i noticed there are no shamblers in the RC or creature catalog) Well, the layout and graphics improve with time -- Holmes looks not so professional, for example: minimal layout, cartoonish art. Art in Mentzer is limited, but well done (better than typical AD&D black & white art). Holmes' game stops at level 3, Moldvay's at level 14, Mentzer's at 36, plus 36 levels of Immortals, if you want to explore that level of gaming. This is because there's only the Basic set for Holmes', and only the Basic and Expert for Moldvay's. Errata are likely fairly heavy in all three (e.g., Holmes' gives 4th level leaders to NPC bandits, but there is no Saving Throw table for 4th level characters). Monster and spell lists are not that different, you won't find shamblers in Mentzer or Holmes (can't say about Moldvay). Gameplay is fairly similar, if you stay with the Basic sets only (i.e., I don't expect an Holmes game to be very different from a Basic set-only Mentzer game). Myself, I play Menzter/Allston or AD&D 2e, depending on the setting, so I'm probably not the most qualified person to advise you. It would help if you told us what you don't like of the Rules Cyclopedia -- if it is the rules complexity (Weapon Masteries, General Skills) or high level play, you'll probably be ok using Mentzer's Basic and Expert (for the improved layout/graphics and some more levels of characters beyond the first three), or even the D&D Challenger Game (somewhat simplified Mentzer/Allston game using only levels 1 to 5). OTOH, if you want a replacement for the original Gygax/Arneson game, your best chance is to pick Holmes (though it won't have as many options). GP -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-08-08 03:30 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? If you are looking for something to download, what I would primarily recommend for you at this point is to try Labyrinth Lord (link found in my signature). It's very similar to the Moldvay/Cook&Marsh rulebooks, and with the added benefit that it's completely FREE to download and use :D. Well, Holmes, the "Classic D&D Rulebook" or the RC are all-inclusive, 4$ downloads, which is not that much. GP -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : BackToBasics Date : 03-08-08 04:39 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? Kipper, Wow thanks for the tip on Labyrinth Lord! :D im very impressed with it all, artwork and all. i think it just might be what im looking for, i will have to try it out for a bit, and if i like it i might even get a hardcopy of it. will i be able to play b-series modules with LL easily? actually, if i had the motivation, LL is what i think i had in mind to make myself... glad someone did the work for me already... Agothokles, "It would help if you told us what you don't like of the Rules Cyclopedia -- if it is the rules complexity (Weapon Masteries, General Skills)" thats pretty much it... skills reminds me of 3.5, i didnt realized they had it even back then. i know i can choose to NOT include them in my game, but i want to avoid unnecessary clutter. the group im going to try to re-introduce d&d havent played games in years. just recently we have played SJ games: car wars and ogre. nice simple games, with short concise rules. i want to give them copies of d&d rules that are just that... short and concise without sacrificing game play..? at any rate, at this point i think its down to moldvay or labyrinth lord... thanks fellas for responding, Mar -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-08-08 06:35 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? thats pretty much it... skills reminds me of 3.5, i didnt realized they had it even back then. i know i can choose to NOT include them in my game, but i want to avoid unnecessary clutter. Well, RC skills are much better than 3e skills. Mentzer, however, doesn't have them. Actually, since Mentzer (and Moldvay) are incremental, they're probably ok for your group (you would give them only the player's book of the Basic set). Labyrinth Lord is organized more like the RC, without the optional rules, but seems otherwise very similar as well. G. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : kipper Date : 03-09-08 08:58 AM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? Kipper, Wow thanks for the tip on Labyrinth Lord! :D im very impressed with it all, artwork and all. i think it just might be what im looking for, i will have to try it out for a bit, and if i like it i might even get a hardcopy of it. will i be able to play b-series modules with LL easily? Yes, you should have no problems at all running the B-series using LL :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : kengar Date : 03-10-08 10:56 AM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? LL is a nice little book, it's certainly worth a read. As far as the older version of D&D, my recommendation (admittedly biased) is for Moldvay. It's a beautifully concise rule set and defines "old school" D&D for me. That said, there's nothing wrong with Mentzer or Holmes, I just prefer the "lean & mean" approach of Moldvay Basic and Cook Expert. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : tvknight415 Date : 03-11-08 12:22 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? I'd go with Moldvay B/X. By the time you've hit 14th level (the top of the expert book), you've got pretty much all of what I would call iconic spells for the spellcasters (raise dead for clerics, disintegrate for magic-users). Plus, as you continue to go up in power, the power curve starts to flatten out. And, as been previously stated, it doesn't have all the optional rules that the RC, or Mentzer C/M/I adds. As for availability, you should be able to get Moldvay books on E-Bay for not much more than the download would cost (especially if you're patient). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : GEEKAZOID Date : 05-03-08 10:33 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? If you like Labyrinth Lords, then it is the Moldvay Basic and Cook/Marsh Expert sets you should get. LL is a virtual clone of that edition. If you wan the true experience, you need to get the real thing. The original artwork is essential to the feel of the game, they are the images that set the foundation for role playing games. And a pdf is just not going to cut it. You need to have the boxed sets. I am hit with an awesome wave of nostalgia every time I look at the box, open it up, pull out the dice, read the rulebook, and then the ultimate adventure "Module B2 The Keep On the Borderlands"... if you want to share this game with your son, you simply must DM this adventure for him. He'll love it. And then after running some of the other basic adventures you move on th the Expert set with "The Isle of Dread"...pirate treasures, lost temples, dinosaurs, on a mysterious island... need I say more? Well, whatever you choose..happy gaming. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : havard Date : 05-04-08 03:02 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? I vote the RC, even though you say you didnt like it. If there were specific elements you didn't like in the RC that don't exist in Moldvay, that is because they are optional and you dont have to use them. IMO the only reason to use Holmes is if you have emotional attachment to it, which it doesn't seem like you have. If Holmes is still an option I think youd be better off with one of the 90s introductory sets or even the Fast-play game. Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : RedWizard Date : 05-06-08 10:56 AM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? I'm a 1st Edition AD&D player myself, but I did just buy a Holmes boxed set for the sheer collectibility of it. I found one in mint condition cheap and knew I had to have it on my shelf for the nostalgia factor. That said, for actual gaming I would likely go with Mentzer and I would use the Rules Cyclopedia for the options. The Gazeteers, defining Mystarra, comprised the best camapaign world TSR (and WotC) ever created and are worthy of getting from both a play and collector's point of view. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Hugin Date : 05-07-08 12:35 PM Thread Title : Re: Help me decide: Moldvay, Holmes, Or Mentzer? That said, for actual gaming I would likely go with Mentzer and I would use the Rules Cyclopedia for the options. I loved the RC! Everything I needed in one single book. Doesn't get any better than that. The Gazeteers, defining Mystarra, comprised the best camapaign world TSR (and WotC) ever created and are worthy of getting from both a play and collector's point of view. The Gazetteers, and the Mystara setting in general, really opened my eyes to the possibilities and depth that can be incorporated into a campaign. They were by far the best RPG aids I've ever read. Highly recommended. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:22 AM.