* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : AD&D Copyright Started at 04-30-08 09:05 PM by Redwolfey Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1025720 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Redwolfey Date : 04-30-08 09:05 PM Thread Title : AD&D Copyright Just one quick question... Is AD&D stuff still under copyright? Meaning, could I scan the books and post them or send them to a friend? I've done several searches but never gotten a straight yes or no answer. :confused: Thanks in advanced, Redwolfey -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : adidamps2 Date : 04-30-08 09:34 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright send them to a fiend yes...post them no. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Etarnon Date : 05-01-08 03:27 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright I think standard copyright is like 150 years past the death of the author? don't quote me. I hear rpgnow is selling these for 4.00 a shot. Ebay you can get a phb and dmg for 10.00 total, any day of the week, multiple copies. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Extempus Date : 05-01-08 03:36 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright According to http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html: How long does a copyright last? The term of copyright for a particular work depends on several factors, including whether it has been published, and, if so, the date of first publication. As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. To determine the length of copyright protection for a particular work, consult chapter 3 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the United States Code). More information on the term of copyright can be found in Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright, and Circular 1, Copyright Basics. Yep, all AD&D anything is still copyrighted and will be for a very long time... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Redwolfey Date : 05-01-08 06:28 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Sigh... Sorry to hear that, but I guess it's good to know. Thanks for all the help and the quick responses guys. :D Redwolfey -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : squidyak Date : 05-05-08 11:14 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Well, it's actually not that cut and dry. The problem is that rules can't be copyrighted, but everything else can be. TSR spent a fortune suing everyone that released AD&D compatible game aides, and lost nearly every time. The open gaming licenses are kind of pointless, do a quick google online and you'll find several sights with the rules posted for earlier editions. The OGL is just WotC essentially saying we won't try to sue you if you use our rules system because we'll just lose anyways. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Rosisha Date : 05-05-08 02:25 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Do you have specific cases? I.e. TSR vs. John Doe? Rosisha, off to google -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : squidyak Date : 05-05-08 02:43 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Do you have specific cases? I.e. TSR vs. John Doe? Rosisha, off to google Criticism After its initial success faded, the company turned to legal defenses of what it regarded as its intellectual property. In addition, there were several legal cases brought regarding who had invented what within the company and the division of royalties. These actions reached their nadir when the company threatened to sue individuals supplying game material on Internet sites (illegitimately, as under special circumstances U.S. copyright law holds that guidelines and rules may not be copyrighted).[11] In the mid-1990s, this led to frequent use of the nickname "T$R" in discussions on RPG-related Internet mailing lists and Usenet, as the company was widely perceived as attacking its customers. Increasing product proliferation did not help matters; many of the product lines overlapped and were separated by what seemed like minor points (even the classic troika of Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance suffered in this regard). The company was the subject of an urban myth stating that it tried to trademark the term "Nazi". This was based on a supplement for the Indiana Jones RPG in which some figures were marked with "NAZI(tm)". This notation was in compliance with the list of trademarked character names supplied by Lucasfilm's legal department, specifically referring to a particular illustration of a Nazi on a cardboard game piece, which is legally trademarkable. (Marvel Comics also supplied a list of trademarked Marvel characters which included the term "NAZI(tm)".) Later references to the error would forget its origin and slowly morph into stories of TSR's trying to register such a trademark, possibly aided by TSR's own reputation late in its existence as a "trademark Nazi" company. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSR%2C_Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Rosisha Date : 05-05-08 04:09 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright I have found some cases as well. I will comply them up and post them, and then hopefully we'll have a general idea of where things stand regarding mechanics. From what I can tell, Wizards of the Coast owns the copyrights to things like "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Ed" and all versions there of, specific concepts and names, fluff text, introductions, etc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : adidamps2 Date : 05-07-08 08:07 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright things here just got interesting?! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Rosisha Date : 05-08-08 07:07 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright As part of my research I've been going over the OSRIC system and find it fairly interesting. Their approach is unique, but for pure 1e. I hope I'll have some information up for you guys sometime next week, but so far everything points to the same thing: The rules of a game are not able to be copyrighted, instead, only the artistic presentation of the rules is able to be copyrighted. Common use names, are common use (you cannot copyright the use of your own first name for example, and charge people money to have that as their name: Sam, Bob, and Jane are all public domain, developing a unique name, on the other hand, is open to interpretation, such as Malizaki the Great). Hopefully I'll have citations and such soon! :D Now another question: Is there an OSRIC like project for 2e? Rosisha -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : readymeal Date : 05-08-08 11:25 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright they are working on OSRIC 2 but it looks like it s still based on ADD1... i might be wrong as i just started to read it... http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/index.php -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Etarnon Date : 05-09-08 01:20 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Okay the thing is this: You can design a game, that has killing dragons, and abilities and a reserve of damage points, and weapons that do attack points, whatever. You just can't call it, Abilities, Hit points, and Thac0, or BAB, or it comes off as a derivative work. This is why OGL was so important to d20's expansion, it allowed peopl to use "Open Game content." If you are gonna design your own game not part of OGL, use a different die, different mechanics, different things from levels, different skills, etc etc. This is why GURPS is different fromWEG SW, different for FASA Trek, Last Uni Trek, etc, etc. As long as your game looks different, plays different, it can be all about treasure hoards & dragons and such. Hackmaster flew because it was a "parody Work" of 1e AD&D, and they (I'm pretty sure)( got permission from WOTC, plus maybe a licensing ffee. I don't know about that, I don't work for, nor have dealt with Kenzer & Co.) OSRIC really cuts the line pretty close. But it's a fine line to cut, between original work, and derivative work. I'm not saying if you are gonna design a game don't do it. I'm suggestiong do it yourself, from zero, don't base it on anything else, and it will fly. Look at Blue Planet, for instance. Or Conspiracy X 2.0 All new games, not based on d20. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : squidyak Date : 05-09-08 01:42 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Okay the thing is this: You can design a game, that has killing dragons, and abilities and a reserve of damage points, and weapons that do attack points, whatever. You just can't call it, Abilities, Hit points, and Thac0, or BAB, or it comes off as a derivative work. Of course you can, as those are rules. You simply can't lift setting materials. You can't use the gods from the PHB for example. But WotC would have a hard time in court if it tried to sue another gaming company for using the term hit points. In fact many games use levels, hit points, experience points, character classes, and many other terms originating with dungeons and dragons. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Extempus Date : 05-09-08 01:48 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright That's why other companies used HTK (hits to kill) and other terms to describe the same things in D&D. However, didn't TSR have legal problems with the Tolkein estate or something over the use of some of his ideas? Metron of Urnst http://forums.gleemax.com/images/avatars/TSR-Miles.jpg -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Etarnon Date : 05-09-08 02:27 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright This is why halflings are halflings. Dwaves and Elves existed in literature long ago. Hobbits didn't. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Rosisha Date : 05-09-08 12:23 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright Actually the pure mechanics (names like BAP, Hit Point, Play proceeds to the Left) are not able to be copyrighted. What we are looking at is a confusion between copyright and trademark. A game mechanical system cannot be copyrighted according to the U.S. patent office. I found this link which explains: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/copyright/newgames.html On that page is a copy of a form letter from the Patent Office which explains that game mechanics are not able to be copyrighted. Stories, art, and other such aspects of a game are (so the rules regarding gnomes, cannot be copyrighted. The picture of the gnome? Copyrighted). Then there are trademarks. D&D is a trademark Wizards of the Coast is a trademark. AD&D 2nd Ed is a trademark. What you have to do is avoid the trademarked words within the game mechanics. If you avoid the words that are trademarked, then the rest of the game is open according to United States Law. The OGL is actually just Wizards of the Coast saying "hey, we acknowledge reality and aren't going to waste our money on huge legal fees like TSR did!" However, even knowing this, looking to make new content for old ed stuff is still complicated. I wish that WotC would release an OGL and SRD for the old edition. Or at least say "Have fun designing new stuff!" That would be super cool of them. I would even buy a copy of the 4th Ed rules if they did that. Rosisha, trying to meet half way -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : MacrossSD Date : 05-09-08 05:03 PM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright That's why other companies used HTK (hits to kill) and other terms to describe the same things in D&D. However, didn't TSR have legal problems with the Tolkein estate or something over the use of some of his ideas? Metron of Urnst http://forums.gleemax.com/images/avatars/TSR-Miles.jpg The thing is that that was back when TSR was suing everyone under the sun (including long-time licensees Judges' Guild and Role-Aids) and the camouflaged names were used to avoid a lawsuit altogether. Because the fact is, companies don't have to sue just because they're in the right. If they feel they can get away with it, they can use a lawsuit as siege warfare and basically bankrupt smaller competitors by forcing them to sink large amounts of money in defending against lawsuits. That's probably why Rob Kuntz and others came up with the "HtK" retermings -- not that they didn't feel they could make supplements for AD&D, but that they knew they couldn't afford a lawsuit -- even one they would have probably won. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Etarnon Date : 05-10-08 01:17 AM Thread Title : Re: AD&D Copyright If they feel they can get away with it, they can use a lawsuit as siege warfare and basically bankrupt smaller competitors by forcing them to sink large amounts of money in defending against lawsuits. That is pretty much the corporate tactic. That and buying up smaller companies / competitors then shutting them down. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:22 AM.