Personally I find templars the hardest to play in games- no one I have ever ran with has ever played them, 2e or 3.5. Not saying that I would not play one if given the change but it would be difficult for a gamer or DM to find reasons why a templar would constantly be out of their city-state and therefore give up a significant amount of their power or authority,
I have to say that it would depend on your style of play and if you are a role-player or a roll-player.
Personally I find templars the hardest to play in games- no one I have ever ran with has ever played them, 2e or 3.5. Not saying that I would not play one if given the change but it would be difficult for a gamer or DM to find reasons why a templar would constantly be out of their city-state and therefore give up a significant amount of their power or authority,
Our PC templar follows Lalali-Puy who has sent her Templars out to spread the word. She is one of them basically- hipie tree huggin Templar (not quite
)which DarkSun character is the best? worst? hardest to play?
This one is the worst :D
Teh Suxor of Raam
Human Commoner 3/Defiler 1 CE
Str: 14 +2 Int: 11 +0
Dex: 8 -1 Wis: 13 +1
Con: 10 +0 Cha: 9 -1
Hit Points: 8 Wounds:
BAB: +1 Attack: Stone Dagger +2 Melee (1d4+1)
Init: -1 AC: 9 (Dex -1) Touch: 9 Flat-footed: 10 :D
Languages: Raamin, Common
Saves: Fort: +1 Ref: +0 Will: +4
Class Features: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll
Feats: Skill Focus (Profession: Farmer), Armor Proficiency (light), Quicken Spell
Spells per Day: 0-level: 3, 1-level-1
Spellbook:
O-level: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Flare, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, (accident with the Erase spell)
1-level: Nystul's Magic Aura, Erase, Detect Secret Doors
Skills: Profession (Farmer) 6 ranks +10, Swim 3 ranks +5 (Cross-class), Tumble 1 rank +0 (Cross-class), Balance 1 rank +0 (Cross-class), Hide 1 rank +0 (Cross-class), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 3 ranks +3
Equipment: Stone Dagger, Winter Outfit, Spellbook (undisguised), 2 bits, Waterskin (damaged)
Human Commoner 3/Defiler 1 CE
Commoner! Ssszzz, hoooot! Beware Sage, such an high-powered class might be too much for some campaigns, you might hurt some main character and jeopardize the entire setting! What was your DM thinking? :P
Init: -1 AC: 9 (Dex -1) Touch: 9 Flat-footed: 10 :D
Actually his flat-footed AC is still 9
You only loose your dexterity bonus to AC when flatfooted. If you're a clutz, you're still not going to be less of a clutz if you're caught unaware ...
Personally I find templars the hardest to play in games- no one I have ever ran with has ever played them, 2e or 3.5. Not saying that I would not play one if given the change but it would be difficult for a gamer or DM to find reasons why a templar would constantly be out of their city-state and therefore give up a significant amount of their power or authority,
If they have a james-bond-like mission, to find things out, to sabotage, to report etc. it is very playable
The worst playable characters are for sure defilers. Several have been killed by their own party. I think defilers should only be played by DM's or in a destructive party.
Also preservers are difficult to play, because of the lack of scrolls and the fact that magic is illegal in most cities. However, the "undergroundness" of the preserver adds a lot to its flavor.
In terms of power level, psions are the best. They don't suffer from the lack of magic on Athas. That is why we want to downtune the psion a bit.
Also, clerics are very good as they also do not depend that much on arcane magic.
We never tried monks in our campains, as we think they are way too powerfull as compared to fighters. In Greyhawk the magical stuff of the fighter compensates the good abilities of the monk. However, as the magic is lacking on Athas, monks are relatively too good.
Actually his flat-footed AC is still 9
You only loose your dexterity bonus to AC when flatfooted. If you're a clutz, you're still not going to be less of a clutz if you're caught unaware ...
That's the official interpretation. but, I think you failed to consider "Snakes on a Plane"
So fear the 1st level commoner with inferior weapons and a Strength score of 6. :P
So fear the 1st level commoner with inferior weapons and a Strength score of 6. :P
Nice Story!
That's the official interpretation. but, I think you failed to consider "Snakes on a Plane"
Ugh. A friend of mine wants to see that. Heh, should be interesting.
I agree with Shim that Psions are the best class to play. Since Athas is a high psionics world, playing a psion is like bathing in the flavor of Athas. You are at the root of it. And with nothing to hinder them legally, as arcane casters have, merchant houses who are always looking for a psion to teleport, read minds, etc. Employment is never hard to come by.
Psionics are so much fun too! Even their feats are more fun! Not to mention swift action psionics make sense while swift action spells.... ehhhn not so much. They are great for multi-classing and can even be incorporated into a character concept without multiclassing. My favorite psionic multiclass combos are Bard/Psion (Telepath), Gladiator/Psychic Warrior, and Ranger/Psion (Seer), though I really want one of my players to try out a Barbarian/Wilder. Since I don't have anyone to DM DS for me, I must live vicariously through my players. (sigh)
I also have a player that insists on creating multi-class freaks, such as a thri-kreen fighter/psychic warrior/ranger/gladiator/barbarian/cleric/reaver. :P
Wow- multiclass much! Have you ever had to imposed the XP penilty for the level gap between class levels?
the barbarian/wilder shounds cool BTW- I may have to use that one.
Sounds like a psi version of rage mage would be in order :D
Also preservers are difficult to play, because of the lack of scrolls and the fact that magic is illegal in most cities. However, the "undergroundness" of the preserver adds a lot to its flavor.
Hmm...you mean that there are fewer scrolls available in treasure troves? Not that much of a hindrance is it, when the player can scribe it himself (since the scribe scroll feat is still free)?
In terms of power level, psions are the best. They don't suffer from the lack of magic on Athas. That is why we want to downtune the psion a bit.
I don't quite get why a psion would be more powerful than a wizard in a Dark Sun campaign. Surely the psion suffers as much from the lack of magical items as a wizard does? Sure, there are some items that are very nice to have for the wizard (like metamagic rods and such) that aren't available as psionic items, but excluding them completely from the campaign seems too harsh/overbalancing in favor of the psion.
We never tried monks in our campains, as we think they are way too powerfull as compared to fighters. In Greyhawk the magical stuff of the fighter compensates the good abilities of the monk. However, as the magic is lacking on Athas, monks are relatively too good.
Sounds like you practice the "psionics is different" alternative. And as such, shouldn't there be lots of psionic items available? Fighters generally need the enhancement stuff anyway (to stats, weapons and armor), so that should definitely keep them up to par with monks? I don't think a monk can compete with clerics/psions/wizards/druids in pure power anyway, so you should probably ban those as well then :P
(note: genuinely curious, not questioning your campaign choices
)Wow- multiclass much! Have you ever had to imposed the XP penilty for the level gap between class levels?
No, he never takes more than 2 levels in a single class except prestige classes. :P
Hmm...you mean that there are fewer scrolls available in treasure troves? Not that much of a hindrance is it, when the player can scribe it himself (since the scribe scroll feat is still free)?
I don't quite get why a psion would be more powerful than a wizard in a Dark Sun campaign. Surely the psion suffers as much from the lack of magical items as a wizard does? Sure, there are some items that are very nice to have for the wizard (like metamagic rods and such) that aren't available as psionic items, but excluding them completely from the campaign seems too harsh/overbalancing in favor of the psion.
Sounds like you practice the "psionics is different" alternative. And as such, shouldn't there be lots of psionic items available? Fighters generally need the enhancement stuff anyway (to stats, weapons and armor), so that should definitely keep them up to par with monks? I don't think a monk can compete with clerics/psions/wizards/druids in pure power anyway, so you should probably ban those as well then :P
(note: genuinely curious, not questioning your campaign choices
Yah, it seems to me that the bigger issues involve Half-Giant and Thri-kreen Monks. I personally don't have a problem with banning certain races from certain classes, but that's a big no no for WotC and Athas.org has to follow their invioluable rules in order to be considered official.
Personally I don't allow Thri-kreen to be: Arcane Spellcasters, Rouges, Scouts, or Monks
I don't allow Half-Giants to be: Arcane Spellcasters or Monks
And I don't allow Dwarves to be: Arcane Spellcasters
Given the illegality of Magic, it's hard to justify Preservers learning new spells, unless they become part of the Veilled Alliance, which comes with a lot of baggage.
Compare with the Psion, who can casually stroll into any School of the Way and ask for training.
Personally I find templars the hardest to play in games- no one I have ever ran with has ever played them, 2e or 3.5. Not saying that I would not play one if given the change but it would be difficult for a gamer or DM to find reasons why a templar would constantly be out of their city-state and therefore give up a significant amount of their power or authority,
I guess the same could be said of dwarves. Some classes and races require more work to fit into the story. With the right effort on the part of the play group the rp can be more rewarding when templars and dwarves are able to retain their flavour and still remain integral to the characters' missions.
We never tried monks in our campains, as we think they are way too powerfull as compared to fighters. In Greyhawk the magical stuff of the fighter compensates the good abilities of the monk. However, as the magic is lacking on Athas, monks are relatively too good.
Whatever magical stuff a fighter might be missing is easily made up for in psionic stuff, especially psionic weapons, armour, and tattoos. However, I don't really see a large loss in magical items in my campaign as clerics and templars are still going to create magic weapons, armour, and potion fruit.
Although I have yet to play Dark Sun in actual D&D, 2nd or 3rd, I have run it in Hero System. Preservers have a problem with the lack of scrolls, not so much so that they can have scrolls to use, but to get new spells from.
Given the illegality of Magic, it's hard to justify Preservers learning new spells, unless they become part of the Veilled Alliance, which comes with a lot of baggage.
Compare with the Psion, who can casually stroll into any School of the Way and ask for training.
Well, the character has to justify their initial learning to obtain first level in the class anyway, so why is that same way barred from them in future levels?
Hmm...you mean that there are fewer scrolls available in treasure troves? Not that much of a hindrance is it, when the player can scribe it himself (since the scribe scroll feat is still free)?
There are way less scrolls, and you can't just buy them (unless you're on an elven market).
When you want to scribe your scrolls yourself, you first have to know the spells. To get a spellbook full of spells is the problem on Athas.
I don't quite get why a psion would be more powerful than a wizard in a Dark Sun campaign. Surely the psion suffers as much from the lack of magical items as a wizard does? Sure, there are some items that are very nice to have for the wizard (like metamagic rods and such) that aren't available as psionic items, but excluding them completely from the campaign seems too harsh/overbalancing in favor of the psion.
It is not the items, but more the availability of spells and components. Wizards just don't have that many spells on Athas as they should have in another campaign. This makes the psion stronger, relatively speaking.
Sounds like you practice the "psionics is different" alternative. And as such, shouldn't there be lots of psionic items available? Fighters generally need the enhancement stuff anyway (to stats, weapons and armor), so that should definitely keep them up to par with monks? I don't think a monk can compete with clerics/psions/wizards/druids in pure power anyway, so you should probably ban those as well then :P
(note: genuinely curious, not questioning your campaign choices
There are some psionic items available. However, there are not that much. We also tend to go back to the "intelligent" psionic items from 2nd ed. Those were quite rare. That is also the reason why fighters are not in par with the monks.
The reason why we don't have that many items is that we started in 2nd. Then items in general were very rare. Now we are playing 3rd ed, with the new psionic items. However, those are not so exclusive as in 2nd. That is why we want to bring the 2nd ed flavor back by having not that many items.
don't psionicists still have to deal with The Order when they get really high level?
For our campaigns, psion(icists) of level >20 should deal with the order when they do not stay low profile. However, usualy this is not important for players as they generally do not reach epic levels.
It is not the items, but more the availability of spells and components. Wizards just don't have that many spells on Athas as they should have in another campaign. This makes the psion stronger, relatively speaking.
There are two ways to get over this disadvantage, though they each have their own disadvantages.
1. Become a trusted member of your local chapter of the veiled alliance and share and share alike.
2. Become a royal defiler and gain acess to your sorcerer king's library. If he really trusts you, you could have access to a huge collection of spells.
There are some psionic items available. However, there are not that much. We also tend to go back to the "intelligent" psionic items from 2nd ed. Those were quite rare. That is also the reason why fighters are not in par with the monks.
The reason why we don't have that many items is that we started in 2nd. Then items in general were very rare. Now we are playing 3rd ed, with the new psionic items. However, those are not so exclusive as in 2nd. That is why we want to bring the 2nd ed flavor back by having not that many items.
I tend to be a lot stingier with equipment in my DS games especial at lower levels. Also, stuff gets lost and stolen and broken much more frequently than in other campaigns. Once the characters start getting up into higher levels (10+) they will have a chance to gain fantastic wealth, but being rich means lots of enemies and many obstacles to aquiring and holding onto treasure.
There are two ways to get over this disadvantage, though they each have their own disadvantages.
1. Become a trusted member of your local chapter of the veiled alliance and share and share alike.
Comes with baggage...
2. Become a royal defiler and gain acess to your sorcerer king's library. If he really trusts you, you could have access to a huge collection of spells.
Comes with MAJOR baggage!
So basically, you have to join a you-only-leave-when-your're-dead organisation to get yourself back to where a Wizard would be in a standard campaign?
Man, Dark Sun is tough! :D
A player in my previous DS game (all hail the Baron!) had a thri-kreen Fighter 2 / Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 1 with Improved Natural Weapon (claw), Psionic Weapon and a host of other goodies. He was only ECL 8, but man, could he lay the smack down when he needed to.
Thri-kreen monks - nassssty...
A player in my previous DS game (all hail the Baron!) had a thri-kreen Fighter 2 / Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 1 with Improved Natural Weapon (claw), Psionic Weapon and a host of other goodies. He was only ECL 8, but man, could he lay the smack down when he needed to.
One of my PCs is a Thri Kreen Rogue. Only level 1 but 5 sneak attacks are nasty.
Thri-kreen monks - nassssty...
A player in my previous DS game (all hail the Baron!) had a thri-kreen Fighter 2 / Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 1 with Improved Natural Weapon (claw), Psionic Weapon and a host of other goodies. He was only ECL 8, but man, could he lay the smack down when he needed to.
Just wait until he gets Claws of the Vampire.
Just wait until he gets Claws of the Vampire.
Nah, not a problem. I had to end the campaign prematurely as I was moving from Holland to the UK at the time (smack in the middle of Road to Urik). So I had the Dragon turn up and inflict a highly enjoyable TPK (after some of my favourite NPCs got the ball rolling). That's it, game over, have a nice life, bye!
I would have no problem having my characters making up spells...Something like 2x the cost of a scroll, certain amount of time (can't just whip it up on command). I like to give my players options were if they wanted to, lets say create a fireball out of cold because they really want to specialize in the frost energy type, hell i'd let them. I would say, week per spell level, then possibly 100 or 50cp per level for research costs. I haven't run a DS campaign (contemplating on starting an online one), but i would keep the same option open, It would be more costly and much more of a pain in the ass, but hey, if you are a mage, you should be smart enough and have enough understanding of magic to make a spell or so.
There are two ways to get over this disadvantage, though they each have their own disadvantages.
1. Become a trusted member of your local chapter of the veiled alliance and share and share alike.
2. Become a royal defiler and gain acess to your sorcerer king's library. If he really trusts you, you could have access to a huge collection of spells.
Another option is also available, if you play in Tyr after Sadira brought the preservers out of the closet, so to speak: since arcane magic is now legal, wizards can exchange spells/scrolls/spellbooks more freely. Although the populace is still skeptical (and indeed, may lynch a wizard if he starts throwing spells around), magic not being illegal helps a lot.
I tend to be a lot stingier with equipment in my DS games especial at lower levels. Also, stuff gets lost and stolen and broken much more frequently than in other campaigns. Once the characters start getting up into higher levels (10+) they will have a chance to gain fantastic wealth, but being rich means lots of enemies and many obstacles to aquiring and holding onto treasure.
Sounds like a good approach, and one I plan on adopting myself. Imo, melee characters don't really need the equipment to stay competetive until higher levels.
If it sounds like I'm a bit obsessed with balance, I am. If the gap between classes get too wide, combat quickly becomes incredibly boring the less-powerful characters. Although I tend to focus on role-playing more than combat (not unusual to have two sessions without a die being rolled in anger), it still is an essential part of the D&D system, even though I don't reward XP through combat, and as such, some degree of balance is imo required.
On another note, psionic equipment in the XPH incorporates crystal as the chief component, with the more powerful items being all crystal. Do you guys also use this approach, or do you treat psionic items more like magic items, i.e. some are mundane, some fantastical etc? Or perhaps exchange crystals for something more DS-appropriate, like obsidian?