Argument: Shadow giants did not survive as shadow giants after the events of the PP. If they survived, it would be as "regular" halflings. For support of this, see some of the last pages of the CS, especially where Tithian, floating through Ur Draxa, saw the former shadow people who had returned completely to their normal physical selves.
I am aware that recent e-publications by Athas.org hold that they certainly did survive as shadow giants. Nevertheless, I make my argument, and wonder what can be said to the contrary. I have expanded upon this issue at length in other threads
Once Rajaat was freed from the Hollow, so were the halflings - not before he was freed, but after/at the same time. I can't imagine this is a coincidence, especially given the above; seems far more likely that whatever "state" Rajaat is in has a direct effect on the "state" of the halflings. I also think this is why they were becoming "less shadow" as time progressed - Rajaat was collecting materials for his body, and as he grew in physical power and presence I think it caused the halfings to also become more physical.
Which brings us to the end of the book. Rajaat is trapped inside of a miniature sun, which (as I argued for/described in one of the old-board threads) is due to his "essence" being in shadow-form but, like the shadow giants, requiring light to fuel it - so when the sun is created directly overtop of his shadow there's no way for the shadow to exist (nothing for the shadow to be cast from), but since 1) you can't destroy Rajaat and 2) he's bound to the sun through the light-dark shadow relationship, he "becomes" the sun itself; the "other end" of pure shadow, namely pure light.
With all that in mind, my suggestion is this - that when Rajaat is re-trapped in the mini-sun, some sort of transformation also occurs to the halflings that are so intrinsically linked to him. Since Rajaat doesn't have a physical body, they lose theirs...which puts them right back to shadow giant form. Although Rajaat is not a shadow anymore he still shares the sun-shadow connection (albeit completely on the sun-side of the spectrum), which is the same connection/relationship that the shadow giants have...so again, possibly resulting in the halflings turning back into shadow giants. In fact, if they "change" into anything at all, I'm 100% for them returning to their previous shadow giant form, without the ability to change into halfling-shape anymore.
On the other hand, you could also argue that, since Rajaat went from being a "creature of shadow" to "creature of light" that the halflings could have suffered the same fate - their physical bodies collapsing along with his, and their essences being bound directly to the sun rather than the Black as they were before. If this is the case then they're "gone" until such a time that Rajaat is released from the mini-sun; unless someone can get to the Dark Sun and make contact with them, there's not much they can do to/on Athas.
Thoughts?
You have some excellent points I shall have to consider.
One of my main possible supports for "no more shadow giants" is the supposition that with the destruction of Rajaat's magical prison, the spells which locked away the shadow people were also destroyed. Since they had bodies upon Rajaat's freedom, and no one threw them back in the Black or cast further enchantments on them, there need be no more reason for them to return to shadow giant status. In this train of thought, the "link of fates" mentioned at the beginning of CS refers most essentially to the imprisonment spells that hold both Rajaat and his servants. As for Khidar's mention of the prison's link with Borys' life, this is, I believe, and excuse developed by the sachem to not make Sadira to suspect the shadow people's intentions, and make her worry about Rajaat. He says that the prison will end with the end of Borys' life because this is something that Sadira will not question too much.
...
This would go with the idea that it was the presence of the dark lens draining the power from the prison that was holding Rajaat. After all the Shadow Giants only starting getting back to halfling form after Tithian took the lens into the city and the huge column of energy erupted from it. So it would be logical that only those near the situation would be the ones effected by it. In other words... the Lens stole the energy imprisoning them in the form.... but only those that were near enough when it all went south for the SK's
So it would be possible for some shadow giants to still exist. Not to mention the fact that some games take place as if the pentad had never happened (some of my own for instance).
All kudos to Dregoth Ascending, of which I am familiar, but this particular debate should not be hedged by such publications.
As to seker's imput, one possibility he presents is that the proximity of the Lens drained the arch-enchantments which kept them in their special condition. This I believe is in error on several levels, for the Lens is draining away the locking spells physically centered on the PMP in the middle of Borys' private sanctum, thus slowly eliminating, and eventually completely eliminating the abjurations keeping all the shadow giants everywhere in their peculiar state. to reiterate, the binding spells were centered about the black orb in the center of Ur Draxa, and the destruction of that orb freed all the shadow people everywhere, allowing them to become traditional halflings again. In his second point, if I am corrent in reading it, seker seems to argue that the proximity of the Lens to the shadow people steals the sealing enchantments away from their individual persons. This seems likely not the case, for the shadow giants themselves say, in the AE, that they used to incubate their young, in the days just after the Betrayal, in the Dark Lens itself. I doubt therefore very much that the Lens drained away their particular warding effects... the sealing spell(s) were all coordinated around the Black Orb in the center of Ur Draxa. They were all freed only when this was destroyed. Since the "intertwined fates" of which Khidar speaks of in his discussion with Rajaat at the beginning of the CS in one sense means the spells which hold both Rajaat and themselves in their particular mode of existence at that time, we may deduct that there is no strange "soul-link" between Rajaat and his servants. Their physical fates are not bound together beyond the Traitors' sealing spells. Since by the end of the CS those spells have been destroyed, there is no reason for the halflings to once again become shadow giants. The only reason this might be anyway would be because of some "soul-link," of which I see no evidence throughout the entire PP. Indeed, how would such a powerful soul-link be formed, and indeed, why would it be? It makes little sense to me.
Dirk however I think is quite close to the reality of the matter. If there is any chance of Rajaat's servants remaining shadow giants, it is probably in the nature of the argument which he is examining. Even though Rajaat is in Rkard's "mini-sun," is he also somehow in the Hollow (this is not suggested at all in the PP, although of course it is elsewhere by 2nd box foolishness)? Regardless, unfortunately (for I like the shadow giants), I am having trouble in concluding that shadow giants are still about. If any survive, it is now as regular halflings.
Arguments stemming other than from 2nd box material that only blithely state that Rajaat was "returned to the Hollow" anyway would be very helpful here, for those who want to resolve this issue in favor of post-CS shadow giants. This issue indeed, in my mind at least, currently hurts the logical integrity of Dregoth Ascending, due to the shadow giants' considerable involvement in the plot of that adventure. I think this should be resolved before Dregoth is finalized by Athas.org.
As to seker's imput, one possibility he presents is that the proximity of the Lens drained the arch-enchantments which kept them in their special condition. This I believe is in error on several levels, for the Lens is draining away the locking spells physically centered on the PMP in the middle of Borys' private sanctum, thus slowly eliminating, and eventually completely eliminating the abjurations keeping all the shadow giants everywhere in their peculiar state. to reiterate, the binding spells were centered about the black orb in the center of Ur Draxa, and the destruction of that orb freed all the shadow people everywhere, allowing them to become traditional halflings again. In his second point, if I am corrent in reading it, seker seems to argue that the proximity of the Lens to the shadow people steals the sealing enchantments away from their individual persons. This seems likely not the case, for the shadow giants themselves say, in the AE, that they used to incubate their young, in the days just after the Betrayal, in the Dark Lens itself. I doubt therefore very much that the Lens drained away their particular warding effects... the sealing spell(s) were all coordinated around the Black Orb in the center of Ur Draxa. They were all freed only when this was destroyed.
First off you read into what I said, that is not what I meant on either points. I was stating that the spells that held the halflings were drained in addition with the spells holding Rajaat due to the massive drain happening that the spells of the shadow people were drawn in as well. The lens does not normally drain all spells, so they would not have been freed by being near it.... however in some way it drains the ones around Rajaat just by pressence.... so the shadow giants spells were drawn in as a consequence.... not a main reaction.
And second I just reread the passages in question....and the idea that the shadow people are the way they are due to a spell cast on them is INCORRECT.... they are the way they are because their life force was used to power the spells at the tower by the SK's forcing Rajaat to transform Borys. By the novels of the pentad.
They have NO lifeforce... which is why sadira's use of sorcerous drained energy is so effective against them.
Second they state that they cannot assume full halfling form untill Rajaat is free of the prison... which indicates that the assuming of partially physical form has absolutely nothing to do with the actual spells containing Rajaat.... just that they cannot assume fully physical form without Rajaat being free. (and the reason is not specified that would allow Rajaats freedom to allow them to assume full physical form again.)
Perhaps we shall return to it later, hopefully with Dirk's help, for he seems to have the best grasp on the subject, in my opinion.
Now, the above only counts if they were drained for that aspect of the Rebellion - if they were only killed to change the S-K's into dragons (I don't think this is correct, but I don't have any reference materials with me at the moment either) then that idea really doesn't fly. But otherwise I think it gives us firm ground upon which to stand in regards to *how* connected the SGs and Rajaat are.
I like Penn's statement that the SGs don't, in fact, have souls - fits in with the "life draining" idea. If this is the case, then how the heck *could* they have *any* sort of existence without some other "life force" to draw from? Again, this is why I propose that their existence - both physically as well as spiritually - is directly connected to Rajaat's state; they are, in a sense, using his pseudo-divinity to continue existing. By the same token, that's why they'r "trapped" in the Black while he's in the Hollow, why they become "free" as he does, and why they seem to become more physical as he too "grows" his body.
What if the case is that they all exist as shadow people normally, and when Raajat is freed, the same magic he uses to change the world around him returns those halfings back to normal.
I like this. Upon being freed Rajaat changes the sun and turns the shadow people back into his loyal halflings...which all gets unmade again when he's imprisonned.
I like Penn's statement that the SGs don't, in fact, have souls - fits in with the "life draining" idea.
I said that
You have clarified yourself seker. However, we still have a conflicting understanding of subtle specifics regarding the shadow giants and their position. The argument seems to be somewhat complex, for eventually the meat of the debate focuses upon what the shadow giants really are, how they exist, and what is their exact nature with regards to the Black, the Hollow, Rajaat's prison, the creation of the Dragon, etc. No one of which I am aware has delivered a truly convincing argument that explains all these facets of the question, including myself.
Perhaps we shall return to it later, hopefully with Dirk's help, for he seems to have the best grasp on the subject, in my opinion.
*sigh*
As I said in my last post my original idea was WRONG.... as the nature of the Shadow Giants creation was wrong.
The Shadow Giants by the novels are undead created from the servants of Rajaat that were originally created when the Champions forced Rajaat to turn Borys into the Dragon.... this is in The Amber Enchantress on page 308
"Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat--of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate."
This states in no uncertain terms how the Shadow Giants were created.... they were drained to fuel the Dragon metamorphosis as the SK's forced Rajaat to cast it. By this, they are undead that have a purpose to avenge their master and kill the Dragon.
Their ability to assume partial material form, could be part of their undead nature from completing the death of Borys.... but it is never fully explained in the novels... all that is known is they were able to assume it after his death.... not if they were able to assume it before that.
Also remember there is no true shadows within Ur Draxa prior to Borys death..... so the nature of Ur Draxa itself could be what caused their assuming partially material form.
*sigh*
As I said in my last post my original idea was WRONG.... as the nature of the Shadow Giants creation was wrong.
The Shadow Giants by the novels are undead created from the servants of Rajaat that were originally created when the Champions forced Rajaat to turn Borys into the Dragon.... this is in The Amber Enchantress on page 308
"Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat--of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate."
I'm not seeing the word "undead" in there. "Sacrificed" does not even necessarily mean killed. To abandon people in the black as part of a plan could also constitute a "sacrifice."
This states in no uncertain terms how the Shadow Giants were created.... they were drained to fuel the Dragon metamorphosis as the SK's forced Rajaat to cast it. By this, they are undead that have a purpose to avenge their master and kill the Dragon.
Their ability to assume partial material form, could be part of their undead nature from completing the death of Borys.... but it is never fully explained in the novels... all that is known is they were able to assume it after his death.... not if they were able to assume it before that.
And their ability to have offspring?
What part of their "undead nature" is that?I'm not seeing the word "undead" in there. "Sacrificed" does not even necessarily mean killed. To abandon people in the black as part of a plan could also constitute a "sacrifice."
First off on the undead part.... read The Cerulean Storm page 295
While Sadira is fighting Khidar, she realizes that "Shadow people had no life-forces of their own; they existed only as silhouettes marking the abscence of energy--usually in the form of light.
And the quote I presented earlier specified they were "born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon" that specifically reffers to the dragon maetamorphosis spells.... which were demonstrated earlier in the novels to drain animal life-force to power the transformation.
So they are by definition a race that does NOT have a life-force, are previously living creatures that were drained of their life-force, and are still animate.
Per page 296 of the Monster manual under the description of Undead:
"Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces."
also note in prior versions of DarkSun the Shadow Giants were listed as undead.
So arguing that they are not undead has no basis in the rules or fluff by what was written about them prior.
And their ability to have offspring?
Actually there are many undead that have offspring.... it is called the create spawn ability. And Shadows (which the Shadow GIants are similiar to in most aspects) are an undead race that has this ability. In fact in every version of Shadows in D&D they have had this ability under one name or another. The fact that they store their offspring in obsidian orbs for a period of time till they are "adult" was never explained in the novels nor was the nature of their offspring. Which makes any supposition on them not applicable to the base nature. As the base nature is defined in the novels and prior rules.
Seker - Regardless of what the 2e rules may have had to say about Shadow Giants, taking into account fluff from the PP I don't see how they *could* be undead. On Athas, you've got mindless undead (the ones animated by "supernatural forces") and you've got intelligent undead, all of which are unique in some way/shape/form and all of which are created using, as far as any fluff or even game rules describe, the original "souls" of the undead. Even the wraiths in the PP are described as having their souls bound to their gems, and of course the banshees are bound by their dwarven curse, so when you tally up everything I don't see how you could argue that "intelligent undead do not have souls" - everything that I'm aware of points to the opposite.
If that's the case, then the SG's *can't* be undead - if their souls were actually destroyed when they were sacrificed, they would have to be something other than undead...because if they were undead, they'd be mindless ones, which they most definitely aren't. If you throw in my previously-stated ideas regarding the connection between Rajaat and the SGs then it's even more unlikely (IMO) that their "lack of soul" somehow translates to them being undead.
In summary - unless you take a convoluted mix of game mechanics and fluff, saying that the SGs are undead doesn't really make any sense. Yes, they may not have "life force" in the traditional (Athasian) sense, but if anything (again, based on what we know about intelligent undead from DS fluff materials as well as most rules) that just indicates that they're something other than undead and hurts the case for them being undead.
Furthermore, although at present I do not wish to become fully involved in this question regarding the SGs, I do want to point out that what Khidar tells Sadira in the AE when she is at the Tower is partly a lie on his part:
"Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat--of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate." (AE, 308)
Very obviously, to me at least, the SGs are released only by the destruction of Rajaat's prison. Indeed, they become only partially free as Tithian enters Ur Draxa, draining away the warding spell(s), as Sacha informs Tithian that the Lens is overcharging due to his sapping away such spells as he approaches the center of the city. Therefore, Khidar is not correct in his statement that when "Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate," for the Dragon dies and they are still imprisoned. Only the destruction of Rajaat's prison released them.
What Khidar said to Sadira was a lie. In context, this is easily understood from a good general reading of the PP. Notice that the SGs are hesitant about answering too many of Sadira's questions, but more importantly is the simple fact that Khidar does not dare tell Sadira the real case in the matter. For note that nothing really is said of Rajaat... Khidar does not tell Sadira the truth, that his race is imprisoned by the same enchantments containing their master, because if she knew that she might question her goal to kill Borys in the first place, for fear of what might happen if Rajaat's prison is not maintained. This is very key to the argument. There is no deep, spiritual or whatever connection between Borys and the SGs, and their imprisonment is only linked to Borys in so far as that it is he who maintains and guards the Prison, and once he is dead, it will be much more possible for Rajaat to be freed.
I wanted to make all that clear.
As to the rest of the argument I am not going to way in fully right now. TheBrax I believe is right to emphasize the "sacrificed" could mean many things, and although I shall not hunt for the quote right now, I believe somewhere in the PP there is made mention of the halflings being "thrown" into the Black, or some such. Perhaps not. Whatever the case though, I am not clear on how even dragon defiling magic would turn them into SGs... someone must elaborate on this to make it more convincing, I think.
I also think that Dirk had earlier conceived of a better argument regarding the nature of the existence and imprisonment of Rajaat's halflings. Dirk, in another recent thread you postulated a theory on how Rajaat could still exist in his new sun prison, created by Rkard and the Lens. I believe you may have something in the inverse-existence, sun vs. shadow (reality versus hole-reality) essence of the SGs. As seker points out from the CS, they have the absence of souls (295), sort of as anti-soul, just as they have anti-bodies, if you follow me. And their bodies seem to be truly in that state, as their true form, in a sense, for their bodies do not seem to be floating in the Black and they are definately not in the Hollow.
And also, let me annoy everyone by still claiming that the SGs do not seem to have continued in their shadow state after the freeing of Rajaat. I do not clearly see, as yet, a way for them to be re-translated... They were freed from the Black by the destruction of Rajaat's prison, and they were not freed by Rajaat's will. Rajaat could do nothing until Tithian finally touched the Black to free him... the SGs were not "partially" freed before this by some will of Rajaat... it was simply because the prison was weakening.
Hopefully we can resolve these issues.
Happy darksunning.
Seker - Regardless of what the 2e rules may have had to say about Shadow Giants, taking into account fluff from the PP I don't see how they *could* be undead. On Athas, you've got mindless undead (the ones animated by "supernatural forces") and you've got intelligent undead, all of which are unique in some way/shape/form and all of which are created using, as far as any fluff or even game rules describe, the original "souls" of the undead. Even the wraiths in the PP are described as having their souls bound to their gems, and of course the banshees are bound by their dwarven curse, so when you tally up everything I don't see how you could argue that "intelligent undead do not have souls" - everything that I'm aware of points to the opposite.
If that's the case, then the SG's *can't* be undead - if their souls were actually destroyed when they were sacrificed, they would have to be something other than undead...because if they were undead, they'd be mindless ones, which they most definitely aren't. If you throw in my previously-stated ideas regarding the connection between Rajaat and the SGs then it's even more unlikely (IMO) that their "lack of soul" somehow translates to them being undead.
Um Dirk you have made an assumption here that is not backed up by the novels or anything I have stated.... at no point did I say the Shadow Giants did not have souls.... in fact I stated that they do not have Life-force which no undead has life-force in their physical form. the only exception to this would be liches/kaisga, the wraiths and other such creatures which store their souls in magical phylacricies.
Also, other than in Abbey's novels (which most agree are far from canon), the life draining of a Dragon drains the life-force of creatures, not the souls.
by the novels, shadow giants have no life-force so are hurt by pure life force.... (which is very similiar/almost identical to how undead are harmed by the positive energy of cure spells.)
So the idea of them being undead is supported by the novels and the rules governing undead and creatures in D&D
In summary - unless you take a convoluted mix of game mechanics and fluff, saying that the SGs are undead doesn't really make any sense. Yes, they may not have "life force" in the traditional (Athasian) sense, but if anything (again, based on what we know about intelligent undead from DS fluff materials as well as most rules) that just indicates that they're something other than undead and hurts the case for them being undead.
Again, NO undead has life-force in D&D and Dark Sun.... they are fueled by negative energy.... and many retain at least remnants of their souls. Your arguement seemed based on the fallacy that Life-force = soul.... and that is not the case. They are seperate.
I don't think they are undead. I think when their life energies and souls were burned to transform Borys, there was some unforseen consequence to the spell that replaced their souls with shadow-stuff, which if you take into account the large amount of spells that shape objects and energies from shadow, can emulate just about anything, and so they are left with something that functions as a soul, of a type, but is completely composed of the essence of Shadow. They apparently reproduce as living creatures do, having wives and spawning children, and NO undead reproduces like that. Creating "offspring" from pre-existing creatures is an entirely different process.
again souls are not burned up in the use of dragon magic in the novels, or rules in any version.... save in abbeys RaFoaDK... which most do not consider cannon.
And no where in the novels does it describe exactly how they create their "children" or what they even look like. So stating they reproduce like living creatures is an assumption that is not backed up by the novels or the prior rules at all.... it is an entirely new thing you would add.
Add to this that intelligent undead can "love" and have relationships with other undead (or even mortals... consider the Lich-loved feat from the book of vile darkness if you doubt this.) the having "wives" means nothing in the terms of if they are undead or not.
I also weigh in against the conception that the SGs are undead. Terminus Vortexa is correct to emphasize that they have wives and children, which, in addition to what others on this thread have said, makees it difficult to see them as undead.
Actually I have proven why that point is an assumption on peoples part above.
Furthermore, although at present I do not wish to become fully involved in this question regarding the SGs, I do want to point out that what Khidar tells Sadira in the AE when she is at the Tower is partly a lie on his part:
"Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat--of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate." (AE, 308)
Very obviously, to me at least, the SGs are released only by the destruction of Rajaat's prison. Indeed, they become only partially free as Tithian enters Ur Draxa, draining away the warding spell(s), as Sacha informs Tithian that the Lens is overcharging due to his sapping away such spells as he approaches the center of the city. Therefore, Khidar is not correct in his statement that when "Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate," for the Dragon dies and they are still imprisoned. Only the destruction of Rajaat's prison released them.
What Khidar said to Sadira was a lie. In context, this is easily understood from a good general reading of the PP. Notice that the SGs are hesitant about answering too many of Sadira's questions, but more importantly is the simple fact that Khidar does not dare tell Sadira the real case in the matter. For note that nothing really is said of Rajaat... Khidar does not tell Sadira the truth, that his race is imprisoned by the same enchantments containing their master, because if she knew that she might question her goal to kill Borys in the first place, for fear of what might happen if Rajaat's prison is not maintained. This is very key to the argument. There is no deep, spiritual or whatever connection between Borys and the SGs, and their imprisonment is only linked to Borys in so far as that it is he who maintains and guards the Prison, and once he is dead, it will be much more possible for Rajaat to be freed.
actually this is an assumption that has flaws in it... the halflings assuming partial form at the same time as tithian entering the city may or may not be related.... it was mentioned prior in the novels that they could not enter the city normally as there were no shadows within the dragons city. So the reason they could assume half form is actually never fully given.... it could be something they could have done all the time.... or it could be that Borys had warded his city againt the SG and this was what the Dark Lens was actually drawing in prior to tithian reaching the center of the city.... or any number of things.... assuming they were imprisoned by spells when this is not mentioned and instead it is stated they were sacrificed, is rewriting the novels to fit your own ideas.
I wanted to make all that clear.
As to the rest of the argument I am not going to way in fully right now. TheBrax I believe is right to emphasize the "sacrificed" could mean many things, and although I shall not hunt for the quote right now, I believe somewhere in the PP there is made mention of the halflings being "thrown" into the Black, or some such. Perhaps not. Whatever the case though, I am not clear on how even dragon defiling magic would turn them into SGs... someone must elaborate on this to make it more convincing, I think.
Hmmm... lets see a group of very loyal creatures, slain by their life force being sucked out of them in a manner very similiar to an undeads life draining ability.... their own will to serve could turn such creatures into undead quite easily.
I also think that Dirk had earlier conceived of a better argument regarding the nature of the existence and imprisonment of Rajaat's halflings. Dirk, in another recent thread you postulated a theory on how Rajaat could still exist in his new sun prison, created by Rkard and the Lens. I believe you may have something in the inverse-existence, sun vs. shadow (reality versus hole-reality) essence of the SGs. As seker points out from the CS, they have the absence of souls (295), sort of as anti-soul, just as they have anti-bodies, if you follow me. And their bodies seem to be truly in that state, as their true form, in a sense, for their bodies do not seem to be floating in the Black and they are definately not in the Hollow.
incorrect they do NOT have an abscence of souls... they have an absence of life-force.... there is a huge difference.... a lack of life force is common to ALL undead. So this supposition is based on a falty premise.
And also, let me annoy everyone by still claiming that the SGs do not seem to have continued in their shadow state after the freeing of Rajaat. I do not clearly see, as yet, a way for them to be re-translated... They were freed from the Black by the destruction of Rajaat's prison, and they were not freed by Rajaat's will. Rajaat could do nothing until Tithian finally touched the Black to free him... the SGs were not "partially" freed before this by some will of Rajaat... it was simply because the prison was weakening.
Hopefully we can resolve these issues.
Happy darksunning.
Again, as the rules and novels points to them being undead, they would not have been automatically fully transformed back by rajaat all over Athas, at most it would have been just in the areas that became BLue Age and likely only as long as it was Blue Age.
Also, I believe that you are stressing too stalwartly how we are assuming too much from the PP. Surely, with such a series as the PP, given the peculariarities of its style, it is difficult to be absolutely 100% certain what Denning means, especially as far as game mechanics are concerned, at any time. However, while I might be "assuming" that Rajaat no hand in directly restoring the halflings from undead to their mortal forms, you are also "assuming" that they are undead. And indeed, to me, it seems that, by far, the greater weight of the evidence goes against the SGs being undead, although I am open to the possibility. The wife and egging elements alone, to harp on a single point, seem to strongly imply something other than undead. Take this quote for instance:
The shadow giant could not allow that, for his wives needed the glassy rock. It was almost egging season. (CL, 157)
I think, besides everything else, there is yet other evidence, which I believe kills your supposition that they are undead. In the previous page in the CL, Denning narrates for us from Umbra's eyes:
" A wraith!" Umbra hissed.
He retreated from the corridor immediately, though not because he was frightened. No being from the Black had need to fear a wraith, for undead spirits were themselves merely shadows of the living. If it detected Umbra at all, the wraith would regard the shadow giant as a human might an oasis spirit: something dimly sense and best left alone. (CL, 156-7)
There is the faintest glimmer I suppose that I might be wrong, if you can find a valid argument seker, but honestly and simply put, you are completely wrong on this issue. Denning himself makes the distinction between undead and the SGs in the passage I just quoted.
The true nature of the SGs still has not been established however. I am currently essentially at a loss as to what and how they are what they are.
Also, as to fates and Rajaat, Khidar did not necessarily mean some carnal link between his race and Rajaat shared beyond the the prison. Just because people say one thing is bound by fate to another, this need not necessarily imply that there is some sort of mystical link between the two... it can also just mean that due to some situation or series of situations, their paths are likely to be parallel. As their paths are parallel at least until the prison is destroyed, perhaps what I am offering here has the possibility of being true. Perhaps their really was a closer, supernatural link. I am open to the idea. I have however not seen the best evidence for it yet.
Hopefully we shall soon become clearer on this issue.
"Sacrificed" must have meant something else than death, apparently.
Maybe Rajaat's personal halfling aids - the ancestors of the current SGs - were protected by Rajaat's magic even after his imprisonment, and the Champions decided to exile and trap them inside another dimension where they could not influence Athas...only after a few centuries of entrapment those halflings turned out a bit like the Forgotten Realms people who became shades because they travelled too long in the Plane of Shadow.
Astral projection is effectively plane shift to any plane in the multiverse with a true resurrection built in. We've read shadow giants come back after being "killed". Just like with astral projection there actually is an unusual but ultimately fatal method to "kill" a shadow manifestation. An astral form, slice the astral cord; a shadow giant form, submerge it in utter darkness.
There are enough similarities to how astral projection works and how shadow giants manifest forms on the Prime that I have no problem envisioning a specially devised supernatural ability that mimics much of astral projection. Only this works exclusively by projecting out of The Black and onto the Prime rather than astral projection allowing travel to any plane, and the result is a shadow giant form instead of a perfect duplicate of the normal form as per astral projection.
So, that said, let me sort of rephrase what I've already stated, idea-wise, although I'm going to incorporate some of the new thoughts that have been brought into this debate:
First, let's assume that the various PP references to Rajaat having taken an active part in "creating" the S-Ks, with his halfling followers being "sacrificed" for that, as canon - I used to be for the Revised Setting idea that it was Borys that did the change, but given recent PP quotes and such I've changed my mind. So anyhoo, if that's the case, we've got the First Sorcerer casting spells to empower his enemies, using his own loyal followers as energy...that leaves him a *lot* of room in regards to exactly "how" he does it.
At this stage of the debate my suggestion is that he used their life force (as Seker would like to put it) to fuel the spell, as opposed to their souls - their "real essence" as it were is specifically connected to the Black, turning them into a "shadow of the living" - anti-life if you will, not in the "negative energy" sort of way but in the "the absence of anything real" sort of way. He likely knew that he was S.O.L. at this point, and may have known what the Traitors had in store for him, so binding the SGs to the Black insured that he they would remain his servants during his time of imprisonment. Just as Rajaat exists as a shadow - the "absence of stuff" as it were - so did the SGs. ...although it was probably the other way around (the SGs were made that way first, Rajaat figured that since his essence was separate from his body he might as well do the same thing to himself, etc.)
From there you've got the whole "breaking of the prison" aspect and the release of the SGs from the Black, all according to Rajaat's original, unknown-to-the-Traitor's "backup plan." My idea breaks down at this point, unfortunately, as I still don't know where the heck an anti-living SG could get their body from - with Rajaat we know that his original body still existed, and he simply built upon that with elemental material...but where did the SG's original halfling bodies come from?
also note in prior versions of DarkSun the Shadow Giants were listed as undead.
So arguing that they are not undead has no basis in the rules or fluff by what was written about them prior.
Shadow giants were not written as rules at the same time they were written in the books. It is an error to try to conflate the after-the-fact attempt to codify a novel's description of a creature into game terms. It must be remembered that the novel department (who Troy was working for when he wrote the novels) and the game department were separate and had no contact with each other. There was no collaboration between the two to come up with a coherent presentation. The game department made a best effort attempt to describe the shadow giant with the game mechanics that were available to them years after the books were published.
And why were they "undead" in the AD&D interpretation of the novel's presentation? Well, as far as I can recall, did AD&D (prior to Dark Sun) have incorporeal "draining" monsters who were ever not undead? I just figure the game designers took the sloppy, easy way and followed the familiar... looks like incorporeal undead, sounds like incorporeal undead, floats like incorporeal undead... must be undead!
I unfortunately do not find your arguments terribly convincing seker. The meat of your soul vs. life-force clarification is surely taken, but this seems to me to be largely semantic and further does not get us anywhere.
but it is not just semantic... the point that they do not have life force makes them only possibly one of 2 types per the monster manual.
By the definitions from the monster manual the only two types that a creature can be that is animate but NOT alive is undead, or construct.... (a third, the deathless was added in ebberron) so unless you want to claim SG's are constructs your arguement has no basis in the rules unless you want to create a whole new type for them.
The fact that they have NO life force means they are NOT alive, though they may be animate. This is a core basis of the Darksun world. Not to mention a basis of all worlds in D&D.
No life force = not alive.
not alive + animate = undead or construct
period.
this is by the rules. If you are wanting to create an entirely different type just for the SG's that is fine... that would be your own choice.... but by the rules that is how it is.
Also, I believe that you are stressing too stalwartly how we are assuming too much from the PP. Surely, with such a series as the PP, given the peculariarities of its style, it is difficult to be absolutely 100% certain what Denning means, especially as far as game mechanics are concerned, at any time. However, while I might be "assuming" that Rajaat no hand in directly restoring the halflings from undead to their mortal forms, you are also "assuming" that they are undead. And indeed, to me, it seems that, by far, the greater weight of the evidence goes against the SGs being undead, although I am open to the possibility. The wife and egging elements alone, to harp on a single point, seem to strongly imply something other than undead. Take this quote for instance:
The shadow giant could not allow that, for his wives needed the glassy rock. It was almost egging season. (CL, 157)
again.... you are reading into that statement to say they are breeding like normal creatures do.... undead CAN have relationships with undead or even living creatures.... this is part of the rules. (heck libris mortis and the book of vile darkness goes into this in detail.)
The only evidence you have given so far, saying they are not undead is the lines reffering to wives and offspring.... which are ambiguous at best. Again as I said many undead can create offspring through the spawn ability (namely shadows), as well as there are many rituals and spells (both magic and psionic) that would allow them to create more of their race easily.... no matter what type they are.... even UNDEAD.
I think, besides everything else, there is yet other evidence, which I believe kills your supposition that they are undead. In the previous page in the CL, Denning narrates for us from Umbra's eyes:
" A wraith!" Umbra hissed.
He retreated from the corridor immediately, though not because he was frightened. No being from the Black had need to fear a wraith, for undead spirits were themselves merely shadows of the living. If it detected Umbra at all, the wraith would regard the shadow giant as a human might an oasis spirit: something dimly sense and best left alone. (CL, 156-7)
lets see this is an easy one to dispell.... the shadow giants are of the black correct.... well normal undead like the wraiths are of the grey.... so this would be an accurate way of them seeing that... even though both are undead.
Also note in every version of D&D and AD&D normal shadows were of the plane of shadows, unlike most undead which are linked directly to the negative material plane. So this still fits with existing rules on shadows and how they differ from undead. Shadows are from a slightly different location (though related to) than most other undead.
As SG are linked to the Black instead of the Grey.
There is the faintest glimmer I suppose that I might be wrong, if you can find a valid argument seker, but honestly and simply put, you are completely wrong on this issue. Denning himself makes the distinction between undead and the SGs in the passage I just quoted.
again.... normal shadows have a similiar distinction from normal undead in normal D&D so this does not truely prove your point...
The true nature of the SGs still has not been established however. I am currently essentially at a loss as to what and how they are what they are.
Also, as to fates and Rajaat, Khidar did not necessarily mean some carnal link between his race and Rajaat shared beyond the the prison. Just because people say one thing is bound by fate to another, this need not necessarily imply that there is some sort of mystical link between the two... it can also just mean that due to some situation or series of situations, their paths are likely to be parallel. As their paths are parallel at least until the prison is destroyed, perhaps what I am offering here has the possibility of being true. Perhaps their really was a closer, supernatural link. I am open to the idea. I have however not seen the best evidence for it yet.
Hopefully we shall soon become clearer on this issue.
as I said, short of creating a whole different type just for the shadow giants alone, the only type that fits by the rules is undead.
And personally I do not see a mystical link as being nessecary myself. Though I am open to ideas on it. I was just trying to clarify the nature of the SG's
That's it, phaaf_glien has sold me to SGs being living beings and not undead. That quote from the PP is perfect for it.
"Sacrificed" must have meant something else than death, apparently.
Maybe Rajaat's personal halfling aids - the ancestors of the current SGs - were protected by Rajaat's magic even after his imprisonment, and the Champions decided to exile and trap them inside another dimension where they could not influence Athas...only after a few centuries of entrapment those halflings turned out a bit like the Forgotten Realms people who became shades because they travelled too long in the Plane of Shadow.
Actually Penn, the shade angle is good to a point.... shades are more along the line of what happened to sadira. The SG's have NO life force.... they are like what happened to shades in 2nd edition that went too far into shadow..... they die and became undead Shadows.
I do not consider the shadow giants to be undead. I consider them to be an altered manifestation of their true form via an effect similar to an astral projection.
Astral projection is effectively plane shift to any plane in the multiverse with a true resurrection built in. We've read shadow giants come back after being "killed". Just like with astral projection there actually is an unusual but ultimately fatal method to "kill" a shadow manifestation. An astral form, slice the astral cord; a shadow giant form, submerge it in utter darkness.
There are enough similarities to how astral projection works and how shadow giants manifest forms on the Prime that I have no problem envisioning a specially devised supernatural ability that mimics much of astral projection. Only this works exclusively by projecting out of The Black and onto the Prime rather than astral projection allowing travel to any plane, and the result is a shadow giant form instead of a perfect duplicate of the normal form as per astral projection.
This is an interesting idea, but again why would they have no life force? that point was brought up several times in the novels and had quite a bit of emphasis put on it in the fight between sadira andf Khidar. Creatures astrally projecting and such still detect as alive, and would have a life force.
Another point if they are manifesting in the other world as shadows.... where are their bodies.... no living creature can survive in the BLack for very long. This was also demonstrated in the novels. They would be frozen to ice.
If we're going to use the PP as the base "canon" for this debate, overall, which it appears we are doing, then Phaaf has definitely proven that SG's are "different" than undead. I'd like to argue the soul-vs-"life force" aspect as well, as I don't at all differentiate between the two in the way that Seker apparently does (in fact I recall reading somewhere - someone help me out on this, please - that creatures killed through defiling magic cannot be restored to life through usual means...because they assumedly don't go to the Gray, because there's nothing "left" of them; no soul, as that is, IMO, directly comparable to "life force" from an Athasian standpoint). However, that argument doesn't need to continue since we don't need to bother with the "SGs are undead" line of reasoning anymore.
Actually the only place that ever stated that a dragons defiling of animal life could devour a soul was in RaFoaSK by Abby and it showed that the chosen race of a Champion drained by the champion could not be raised/etc... as they devoured the soul. There was nothing prior to that linking the dragon abilities with devouring souls.
There was an option in the Dragon Kings book, that at the DM's descision, any creature killed in the defiling of 10th level spells could not be ressurected.
However nothing was EVER said that creatures killed by being drained could not become undead.... in fact, there are numerous undead creatures in both the original system and the Athas.org that are created from creatured killed through defiling. So this actually gives another point towards the SG's being undead not the other way around.
So, that said, let me sort of rephrase what I've already stated, idea-wise, although I'm going to incorporate some of the new thoughts that have been brought into this debate:
First, let's assume that the various PP references to Rajaat having taken an active part in "creating" the S-Ks, with his halfling followers being "sacrificed" for that, as canon - I used to be for the Revised Setting idea that it was Borys that did the change, but given recent PP quotes and such I've changed my mind. So anyhoo, if that's the case, we've got the First Sorcerer casting spells to empower his enemies, using his own loyal followers as energy...that leaves him a *lot* of room in regards to exactly "how" he does it.
Actually it stated the Champions sacrificed the halflings to power the spells cast by Rajaat, which limits it somewhat.... but that is nitpicking.
At this stage of the debate my suggestion is that he used their life force (as Seker would like to put it) to fuel the spell, as opposed to their souls - their "real essence" as it were is specifically connected to the Black, turning them into a "shadow of the living" - anti-life if you will, not in the "negative energy" sort of way but in the "the absence of anything real" sort of way. He likely knew that he was S.O.L. at this point, and may have known what the Traitors had in store for him, so binding the SGs to the Black insured that he they would remain his servants during his time of imprisonment. Just as Rajaat exists as a shadow - the "absence of stuff" as it were - so did the SGs. ...although it was probably the other way around (the SGs were made that way first, Rajaat figured that since his essence was separate from his body he might as well do the same thing to himself, etc.)
From there you've got the whole "breaking of the prison" aspect and the release of the SGs from the Black, all according to Rajaat's original, unknown-to-the-Traitor's "backup plan." My idea breaks down at this point, unfortunately, as I still don't know where the heck an anti-living SG could get their body from - with Rajaat we know that his original body still existed, and he simply built upon that with elemental material...but where did the SG's original halfling bodies come from?
Actually an anti-life (negative energy) creature like you are describing is by definition an undead.... and this is what I was going for.
As to how they regained their body.... I am not sure on that to be honest, as there was not enough information given during the novel on this.... but considering they started it before Rajaat started recreating the Blue Age, it is possible the SG's had some kind of spell/ritual setup to allow them to assume a partial form... which may have to do with the fact that they imbued Sadira so that she now assumes a shadow form for a while.... maybe they took part of her "physical nature" to allow them the half forms temporarily.... but this is pure supposition as we have no given information on how they did it. Or even if it was just something they could only do in Ur Draxa, or a number of other factors.
Shadow giants were not written as rules at the same time they were written in the books. It is an error to try to conflate the after-the-fact attempt to codify a novel's description of a creature into game terms. It must be remembered that the novel department (who Troy was working for when he wrote the novels) and the game department were separate and had no contact with each other. There was no collaboration between the two to come up with a coherent presentation. The game department made a best effort attempt to describe the shadow giant with the game mechanics that were available to them years after the books were published.
And why were they "undead" in the AD&D interpretation of the novel's presentation? Well, as far as I can recall, did AD&D (prior to Dark Sun) have incorporeal "draining" monsters who were ever not undead? I just figure the game designers took the sloppy, easy way and followed the familiar... looks like incorporeal undead, sounds like incorporeal undead, floats like incorporeal undead... must be undead!
I am aware of this, however I want to point out that in the rules for the system of AD&D at the time and for D&D now... the undead type is truely the only one that works by the definitions given in the rules... unless we want to create a whole new type, it is the only one that fits by the RAW.
We've read shadow giants come back after being "killed". Just like with astral projection there actually is an unusual but ultimately fatal method to "kill" a shadow manifestation. An astral form, slice the astral cord; a shadow giant form, submerge it in utter darkness.
There are enough similarities to how astral projection works and how shadow giants manifest forms on the Prime that I have no problem envisioning a specially devised supernatural ability that mimics much of astral projection. Only this works exclusively by projecting out of The Black and onto the Prime rather than astral projection allowing travel to any plane, and the result is a shadow giant form instead of a perfect duplicate of the normal form as per astral projection.
This is important. The Monster Bureau should take a look at this suggestion toweards implementation in the SGs.
I personally bugged my friend Kam half-a-dozen times with "Did you present those ideas of mine to the bureau?" and it resulted in the Greater Shadow Giant being created, to match what Khidar could do in the novels.
I could see this ability being added to the SG anytime. A kind of ressurection like for a few undead types. Reformation after some time has passed.
So anyhoo, if that's the case, we've got the First Sorcerer casting spells to empower his enemies, using his own loyal followers as energy...
I'm sorry but the only references we have about Rajaat point towards him not using (maybe he did for a while, though, as he developped it personally) defiling when he casts. Reference one is he's a pyreen*, a loaded concept vs defiling, and reference two is RaFoaDK where Rajaat is simply never shown to defile...he justs casts, a bit like a preserver.
I suspect Rajaat no longer used plant life energy like he did for the first few years after discovering the process of magic, that he now instead uses an undisclosed source like, say, the sun.
* Once a defiler, always a defiler you'd say? A powerful being like Rajaat can probably redeem himself no problem from such a small hickup as defiling for a few years during his youth. I'd say he still has all of his pyreen abilities now, including his druidic ones.
My idea breaks down at this point, unfortunately, as I still don't know where the heck an anti-living SG could get their body from - with Rajaat we know that his original body still existed, and he simply built upon that with elemental material...but where did the SG's original halfling bodies come from?
Maybe its too obvious but...the halflings were cast body and soul into the Black by the Champions? Their bodies become of the Black with time, but now they can retrieve their true form.
The SG's have NO life force....
This is at the crux of your argument, really, and I simply don't believe it. I think that this issue is a matter of interpretation, not a clear-cut fact like you are saying. I simply don't think it is so. Perhaps things in the Black do not have life force per say because they are in the Black - a place made of nothingness - but SGs are very real.
I see it this way. Consider this imaginary setup: A normal-matter creature is sent in another dimension where all matter is antimatter, and gets translated into antimatter itself, continuing to exist without problems. So...the halflings are cast out into the Black and become of the Black, their life energy translated as well, into whatever form the Black allows. So...when they translate back into halflings again they are still alive.
This is an interesting idea, but again why would they have no life force? that point was brought up several times in the novels and had quite a bit of emphasis put on it in the fight between sadira andf Khidar.
There is evidence, enough to consider it seriously, that the SGs are alive in their shadow form: they can bleed, they reproduce, they die of old age (there is evidence of generations past, thus death). This is pretty much incompatible with undeath.
Another point if they are manifesting in the other world as shadows.... where are their bodies.... no living creature can survive in the BLack for very long. This was also demonstrated in the novels. They would be frozen to ice.
In the PP novels they do not appear as halflings in the Black, they appear as SGs. This is evident in the scene where Rajaat communes with the SGs through his prison in the Hollow.
Actually the only place that ever stated that a dragons defiling of animal life could devour a soul was in RaFoaSK by Abby and it showed that the chosen race of a Champion drained by the champion could not be raised/etc... as they devoured the soul.
I'm not claiming to be right here, but I suspect you're mixing up scenes of RaFoaDK. Hamanu has to intentionnaly destroy someone's essence to present them from being raised. He does this a few times, but rarely, as it feeds his dragon metamorphosis. So does defiling feed the metamorphosis, but if it fed it as much as it does when he consumes someone's essence then Abbey would not mention it.
Basically Hamanu does that stuff without casting a spell. He sends forth his "will" and kills the person, eating her energy.
In other scenes he simply severs the person's essence from her substance, killing her, but that way the person can be raised from the Gray or communicated with by malicious forces intend on gaining intelligence. In those scenes its not mentionned that Hamanu feeds the metamorphosis by accomplishing the act.
In both those scenes - the consuming of essence and the severing of essence - Hamanu does not use spells. Just his "will". No defiling is involved. In fact Abbey rarely uses defiling and traditional magic in RaFoaDK, rather she uses a Champion's "powers", which in game terms would translate into powerful spell-like - defiling-free - abilities that allow them to do virtually anything, or she states that Hamanu uses his own life essence to power a spell.
Albeit I think that somewhere in the PP we see Hamanu defile plant life or animal life, in RaFoaDK I think we never see him do that and that Abbey mentions Hamanu hasn't done it in a long time, or simply given up on it.
As to the nature of the SGs, it seems to me that we are unclear as to what exactly even happened to them during the Betrayal, and therefore it is difficult to establish what exactly they became. Were they defiled? Were they thrown into the Black? Were they associated with the Hollow? Was the Lens used to blast their existence "inside-out" so to speak, turning them from beings of existence to beings of non-existence, who therefore must lurk forever in the Black? This is all of course cumbersome for us, for we are attempting to enforce logical rules on things which do not even exist (magic, the Black, etc.), but nonetheless, any experienced DM knows that a firm logical grounding (regardless of how illogical the world may be) is needed to support any long-lasting, fair and believable world, especially for those PCs who frequently make the DM question how things actually work.
Who knows? Denning probably would not even tell us what really happened... "it helps keep the mystery and such" I am rather positive he would quip at us with a smirk.
This is an interesting idea, but again why would they have no life force?
Because that would be a quality of the manifested form.
The way I figured it was like this. Rajaat and his halfling servants were imprisoned in The Black and Rajaat was thrust into a genesis demiplane located in the Black. Using epic level enchantments, the dark lens, and the Pristine Tower, the betrayers enhanced the demiplane to prevent Rajaat from escaping via any planar travel... this enhancement required continued XP expended (sacrificed lives count). The halflings' were only imprisoned in The Black.
The psionic power astral seed and the spells magic jar and astral projection gave me an idea for what happened to the halfling's bodies. A new psionic power could be whipped up to mimic what was going on in the books using those effects as further inspiration. Plus a new template for the shadow projection form.
I worked on this take back on 2001 and simply put it on the shelf when I drifted away from Dark Sun. I might post the unpolished effort if anyone is interested.
Maybe its too obvious but...the halflings were cast body and soul into the Black by the Champions? Their bodies become of the Black with time, but now they can retrieve their true form.
This is an interesting idea and is a possiblity.
This is at the crux of your argument, really, and I simply don't believe it. I think that this issue is a matter of interpretation, not a clear-cut fact like you are saying. I simply don't think it is so. Perhaps things in the Black do not have life force per say because they are in the Black - a place made of nothingness - but SGs are very real.
in the quote I gave in the prior posts about amber enchantress and cerulean storm.... specify that they were sacrificed by the champions to power the spells rajaat cast to make borys the dragon. and that they specifically do not have life force. As the champions powered spells through animal life force it becomes quite obvious what this means.
I see it this way. Consider this imaginary setup: A normal-matter creature is sent in another dimension where all matter is antimatter, and gets translated into antimatter itself, continuing to exist without problems. So...the halflings are cast out into the Black and become of the Black, their life energy translated as well, into whatever form the Black allows. So...when they translate back into halflings again they are still alive.
this is a very interesting idea, but it is not supported by the actual quotes from the novels.
There is evidence, enough to consider it seriously, that the SGs are alive in their shadow form: they can bleed, they reproduce, they die of old age (there is evidence of generations past, thus death). This is pretty much incompatible with undeath.
1. they bleed shadow stuff, not blood.... save in the half form in the final novel. normal shadows in novels by other authors for normal D&D worlds also bleed shadow when cut.... this is a normal description of the types. So the arguement is moot on this point.
2. reproduction... this is NEVER stated what form it is in the novels... in fact the few refferences too it are totally unlike normal halfling patterns... I have given multiple ways undead can reproduce... spawn, ritual/spell, and heck even some undead are capable of producing living children in normal D&D. So again this does not prove they are not undead in any way.
3. at no point does it state they grow old and die.... and even undead can die in the right circumstances.
In the PP novels they do not appear as halflings in the Black, they appear as SGs. This is evident in the scene where Rajaat communes with the SGs through his prison in the Hollow.
I agree, I was mearly responding to others possibilties that they were in the Black and doing something similiar to astral projection.... which that kind of spell/effect leaves a body behind.... so I was mentioning that the bodies would not survive in such conditions.
I'm not claiming to be right here, but I suspect you're mixing up scenes of RaFoaDK. Hamanu has to intentionnaly destroy someone's essence to present them from being raised. He does this a few times, but rarely, as it feeds his dragon metamorphosis. So does defiling feed the metamorphosis, but if it fed it as much as it does when he consumes someone's essence then Abbey would not mention it.
Basically Hamanu does that stuff without casting a spell. He sends forth his "will" and kills the person, eating her energy.
In other scenes he simply severs the person's essence from her substance, killing her, but that way the person can be raised from the Gray or communicated with by malicious forces intend on gaining intelligence. In those scenes its not mentionned that Hamanu feeds the metamorphosis by accomplishing the act.
In both those scenes - the consuming of essence and the severing of essence - Hamanu does not use spells. Just his "will". No defiling is involved. In fact Abbey rarely uses defiling and traditional magic in RaFoaDK, rather she uses a Champion's "powers", which in game terms would translate into powerful spell-like - defiling-free - abilities that allow them to do virtually anything, or she states that Hamanu uses his own life essence to power a spell.
Albeit I think that somewhere in the PP we see Hamanu defile plant life or animal life, in RaFoaDK I think we never see him do that and that Abbey mentions Hamanu hasn't done it in a long time, or simply given up on it.
I agree, I was actually responding to people repeated mistaking my statements for them devouring souls with the animal life drain ability of dragon magic.... Which I did not even state in the first place. I was correcting misconceptions that people seemed to have that subjects of dragon defiling could not become undead.
In fact there are a rather large number of types of undead in Athas caused by victims of defiling of one sort or another.... and to be honest the SG seem to be another one.
seker, you fight valiently for your cause of shadow giants being undead, and indeed, this would be a happy conclusion in some ways, as it might help to answer questions regarding the exact nature of the halflings, which none of us seem able to ascertain. The fact of the matter is however that Denning himself, in the quote I offered from CL, clearly differentiates between undead and "beings from the Black." If he considered shadow giants undead, he would have conflated the two species mentioned in the passage (wraiths and shadow giants), and not differentiated so clearly between them.
And the difference being one is of the Black and the other is of the Grey.... they are of other planes... so they are obviously not going to understand each other.
This EXACT SAME difference can be seen between a normal shadow and a normal wraith in a standard campaign world.
As a normal Wraith is of the negative material plane
and a Shadow is of the Demiplane of Shadow.
The inductive reasoning here seems to me to be, essentially, without fault. All who have weighed in their opinions on this thread are against your undead hypothesis, and indeed we are unanimous save for yourself.
and just because a bunch of spooky kids and reporters call Marilyn Manson a goth, does not make his music anything like goth rock.
you are saying because less than a handfull of people disagree with my opinion on this, and have not given a viable rules alternative that fits THE RULES AS WRITTEN for the game system that I am incorrect?
I am a massive rules lawyer and can quote chapter and page on the rules that back up my theory on the nature of the SG's and have been doing so. I have quoted passages from the books that leave no room for interpitation (the fact that the SG's have no life force even in the half physical form in the 5th book for instance) and the fact that this by the rules leaves no pre existing option save one. (the fact that only undead and constructs are non living yet animate.)
However, you seem to, more for reasons of taste, prefer your undead option, which you should wholeheartedly embrace if this is your desire. Indeed, I pondered myself, before I began this thread, on the possibility of their undead status. Furthermore, I might even consider the possibility that they could be turned as undead in game (although I have not fully thought on this yet). However, in the end, as a staunch conservative in these matters, I adhere to Denning, and he clearly informs us, in the discussed passage, undeniably, that the SGs are not undead, at least in his sense of the word, (although they still may be in your sense of the word). This is good enough for me, and I believe we have settled the issue.
as I have shown in several posts you are reading into his statement.... that statement only shows that they are NOT like normal undead (and as they are of the Black and not the Grey this is a given) not that they are or are not undead.
As to the nature of the SGs, it seems to me that we are unclear as to what exactly even happened to them during the Betrayal, and therefore it is difficult to establish what exactly they became. Were they defiled? Were they thrown into the Black? Were they associated with the Hollow? Was the Lens used to blast their existence "inside-out" so to speak, turning them from beings of existence to beings of non-existence, who therefore must lurk forever in the Black? This is all of course cumbersome for us, for we are attempting to enforce logical rules on things which do not even exist (magic, the Black, etc.), but nonetheless, any experienced DM knows that a firm logical grounding (regardless of how illogical the world may be) is needed to support any long-lasting, fair and believable world, especially for those PCs who frequently make the DM question how things actually work.
And as I said before, if we wanted to create a new type for them.... that would be an easy solution that would take care of all the arguements. But by the rules as they are written in 3.5 the only type that is in the core books that even fits would be undead.
Who knows? Denning probably would not even tell us what really happened... "it helps keep the mystery and such" I am rather positive he would quip at us with a smirk.
I am pretty sure he would too.... in fact, even if he had an answer, he sure as heck would not tell us.... it is more fun this way.
Because that would be a quality of the manifested form.
actually if we did something like this it would be unlike any other spell of its type out there, as all other forms of it (even ones for possessing undead) keeps the actual spark of life linked to them.
The way I figured it was like this. Rajaat and his halfling servants were imprisoned in The Black and Rajaat was thrust into a genesis demiplane located in the Black. Using epic level enchantments, the dark lens, and the Pristine Tower, the betrayers enhanced the demiplane to prevent Rajaat from escaping via any planar travel... this enhancement required continued XP expended (sacrificed lives count). The halflings' were only imprisoned in The Black.
only problem here is it was specified that the halflings were sacrified to power the spells, so they would not only be imprisoned
The psionic power astral seed and the spells magic jar and astral projection gave me an idea for what happened to the halfling's bodies. A new psionic power could be whipped up to mimic what was going on in the books using those effects as further inspiration. Plus a new template for the shadow projection form.
I worked on this take back on 2001 and simply put it on the shelf when I drifted away from Dark Sun. I might post the unpolished effort if anyone is interested.
I of course would be interested in seeing it.... I love new things even on stuff I do not agree on.
actually if we did something like this it would be unlike any other spell of its type out there, as all other forms of it (even ones for possessing undead) keeps the actual spark of life linked to them.
So? If it isn't clear already, shadow giants are quite unlike any other creature.
only problem here is it was specified that the halflings were sacrified to power the spells, so they would not only be imprisoned
I'm with Brax on this. I believe you are interpreting the word "sacrificed", in the context used, mistakenly. The rules mechanics for the dragon metamorphosis had not been devised until after Troy Denning wrote the books, and at that they were written up without consultating him about what he intended. They were a best-effort interpretation. It cannot be asserted that Troy Denning wrote those passages with knowledge for a mechanic that had not yet been put into game terms... i.e. a specific spell.
And, IMO, I do not believe that "sacrifice" must have meant they were used as a component for the metamorphosis spell. It could have been any other unspecified magic they were "sacrificed" for, or it could have even meant simply discarded like an obstacle in the way so that a final effect could be attained.
I of course would be interested in seeing it.... I love new things even on stuff I do not agree on.
I'll try to get them all together soon...
I'm sorry but the only references we have about Rajaat point towards him not using (maybe he did for a while, though, as he developped it personally) defiling when he casts. Reference one is he's a pyreen*, a loaded concept vs defiling, and reference two is RaFoaDK where Rajaat is simply never shown to defile...he justs casts, a bit like a preserver.
I suspect Rajaat no longer used plant life energy like he did for the first few years after discovering the process of magic, that he now instead uses an undisclosed source like, say, the sun.
* Once a defiler, always a defiler you'd say? A powerful being like Rajaat can probably redeem himself no problem from such a small hickup as defiling for a few years during his youth. I'd say he still has all of his pyreen abilities now, including his druidic ones.
Given the topic of this thread I can see how this is passed up, but it is very interesting. Maybe a new thread?
Black Projection
Metacreativity
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Display: None
Manifestation Time: 30 minutes
Range: Touch
Targets: You plus one additional creature touched per two levels
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 17
This power allows the manifester to project a shadowy projection of themselves into the Black, or out of the Black into the Prime. At the power's manifestation, the manifester can bring the shadow forms of other creatures with him or her, provided the creatures are linked in a circle with the manifester at the time of the manifestation. These fellow travelers are dependent upon the manifester and must accompany him or her at all times. If something happens to the manifester during the journey, the companions are stranded wherever he or she left them. Any creature traveling in shadow form acquires the shadow projection template (see below).
The manifester projects his or her shadow self into the Black, leaving his or her physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The power projects a shadow body of the manifester onto the Black. Since the Black only touches upon the Prime or the Gray, the manifester can project to those planes. The manifester then leaves the Black, forming a new shadow body (with no equipment) on the plane of existence he or she has chosen to enter.
Like objects created from illusion (shadow) spells, the form is made of pure shadow stuff from the Black. While in shadow projection form, the manifester cannot be detected by powers that detects life or presences (including true seeing).
On the Prime plane, the shadow form body's power is linked to the strength of illumination. If shadow form is emersed in utter darkness, the affected person is killed, shadow form and materially. On the Gray the light is ambient but very dim so there is no threat of death from darkness. On the Black, there is no ambient light to speak of but the shadow form is immune to death from darkness. If the shadow form is slain, the person’s body revives it from its suspended state. Although black projections are able to function on the Black, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Black; a shadow projection must be manifested on other planes.
The manifester and companions may travel through the Black indefinitely. Their bodies simply wait behind in a suspended state until they choose to return their spirits to their physical bodies. The power lasts until the manifester desires to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as negate psionics manifested upon either the physical body or the astral form, or the destruction of the body back on the Material Plane (which kills the character).
Mind Store
Metacreativity
Level: Psion 8
Display: Material and visual (see text)
Manifestation Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: One obsidian egg
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 15
This power empowers an obsidian egg (of at least 1000 cp value) to be able to contain the essence of your living mind (this power can’t be used on a dead subject). Until such time as you perish, the obsidian egg is utterly inert. If you are slain at some later date, your soul transfers into the obsidian egg, which begins to dimly glow. Upon transference, your physical remains (should they still exist) become inert matter and cannot thereafter be restored to life. The transfer from the slain body to the obsidian egg works over any distance, physical or extra-dimensional, unless some sort of special planar geometry supersedes the transfer.
Once the obsidian egg is activated by your physical body’s demise you have all the powers you knew and the power points you possess when mind store was manifested, but at one level lower. You have 150 days to occupy this obsidian egg before you must transfer the essence of your living mind to a new obsidian egg of at least 1000cp value, after which time your sentience fades and your soul passes on to the Gray if it hasn’t entered a new egg. Additionally, while your living mind occupies an obsidian egg, you may grow an organic body that you may use instead of a second obsidian egg to transfer you mind to.
To grow a body, you (in the obsidian egg) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as shadowmatter from the Black, and slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested mind store (the obsidian itself slowly breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body). When the ten days are completed, you completely and totally inhabit the new body. You possess all the abilities you possessed when mind store was first manifested, at one level lower, but you have none of your equipment. If the growing body is struck for any amount of damage, it is destroyed and your soul passes on to the Gray.
Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil psion would smash the obsidian egg with an imbedded mind in order to permanently usurp the subject’s organic body (unless the subject is, itself, irredeemably evil).
Dark Sun Note: I posit that Rajaat’s servant halflings each had prepared mind stores for themselves. When the Champions used the Dark Lens to bind Rajaat’s servants in the Black, the halfling's bodies eventually perished from the plane's effects, but their living minds were transferred to the prepared obsidian eggs at the Pristine Tower. The nature of the binding psionic enchantment created by the Champions prevents the servants from ever existing as physical matter on the Prime, they are ”metaphysically” tied to the Black. The obsidian egg, once occupied, allows the occupant to manifest as [something, haven’t determined] in the Black as if you were a native of the Black. From this manifestation, Rajaat’s servants use black projection to project onto Athas as a shadow projection (see shadow projection template). But again, the nature of the binding psionic enchantment cast by the Champions from the Dark Lens prevents the servants from using black projection for projecting a shadow outside the radius of the Pristine Tower’s mystical radiation. However, if contacted by [some greater mindlink-like power], Rajaat’s servants may project a shadow from out of a cast shadow of the person contacting them.
The epic bindings don't prevent the halflings from growing a new body on the Black, but it does prevent one on the Prime. A new body on the Black would simply cease to exist like all living things on the Black eventually do.
Shadow Projection [Template]
Entities in the Black have found a way to come forth into Athas. They manage this with a metacreativity psionic power called black projection. The projector may bring other entity’s projections with him, provided the creatures are linked in a circle with the user of black projection at the time of the power’s manifestation. These fellow projectors are free to travel as they wish. If something should happen to the original user of the power, they are not harmed in any way.
The power projects a shadowy image of the user. Matter of any type cannot be brought along. The user can only project into the Prime, the Black, or demiplanes within the Black such as those created the genesis power.
The creature and their companions may travel on Athas indefinitely. The power lasts until the user desires it to end, in which case the projection just slides into a nearby shadow to return to the Black or until the projection is affected by total darkness which kills the user outright.
The only known users of this power are Rajaat’s servants who were bound in the Black by the Champions, and are known as “Shadow Giants” by those who have seen them.
CREATING A SHADOW PROJECTION
Shadow projections are the manifestation of a creature using the black projection psionic power. The subject must be within the Black to project, and may only project onto Athas within an area of 20 miles radius around the Pristine Tower.
Another way to project onto Athas is for the being in the Black to be contacted by [some kind of Greater, interplaner, mindlink-type power to-be-made]. The contacting entity must be on Athas, and be casting a distinct shadow from a daylight strengthlight source.
Speed: A shadow projection has a base speed of 40.
Size: When on the Prime, the projection is of Large size (9’ to 10’), normally. With a 10 ft. space and a 10 ft. reach. When in light of “daylight” strength the projector may increase the projections size by double at will and return to normal size at will. This change makes the projection of Huge size giving it a 15 ft. space and a 15 ft. reach with a new base speed of 50’. This change takes 1 full round to accomplish, returning to normal size also takes 1 full round. When in light of “moonlight” strength, the projection shrinks to Medium (5 1/2’ to 6’) size, with a 5 ft. space and a 5 ft. reach.
The creature’s size in the Black is as the base creature.
AC: When the being projects onto Athas all armor and shield bonuses are lost, because no material possessions are carried into the projection. The projection’s natural armor value is now +0, but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier (minimum +1).
Attacks: A shadow projection can only make unarmed attacks. Attacks are incorporeal and thus pass through armor and shields. See special attacks.
Damage: Against other shadow projections, the projection uses the base creature’s damage ratings. Against all other creatures, the shadow projection usually cannot deal physical damage at all but can use its special attacks.
Special Attacks: The projection retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect non-projections.
Black Lure (Su): Any target grappled by the shadow projection can be pulled into the Black. The projection can inflict the Touch of the Black ability while it pulls the target into the Black as well. It takes 2d4 rounds to draw a grappled target completely into the Black. This attack cannot affect incorporeal targets.
Shadow Tide (Su): Once per day, the shadow projection may choose to take the form of a shadowy cloud and billow forth and envelope a 40 ft. by 80 ft. area that stays immobile once in cloud form. Winds do not affect the shadow cloud. The transformation takes one round, and then another round to fill the area. The cloud may be situated any way as long as at least one square which the original form occupied is over lapped by the cloud’s area. All creatures within the area are affected by the Black Lure effect and the Touch of the Black effect. Objects within the area are affected with Touch of the Black. The shadow projection must keep this form for 2 minutes, and then immediately returns to the shadow projection’s original form. Once in original form, the shadow projection begins at Medium size and it takes a full 10 minutes to return to normal size (see above). This attack cannot affect incorporeal targets.
Touch of the Black (Su): A shadow projection that touches a material target, such as with an unarmed attack, deals 2d10 points of draining damage and 1d3 points of Strength damage, no save. Inanimate objects that lose all hit points become fragile, brittle and possess a shadowy stain, but don’t break, unless something corporeal strikes it. The target has 1 hit point restored per 10 minutes and the color returns to normal with it. Strength returns at 1 point per hour. Warmth does not speed this restoration. The projector may choose to touch a target and withhold the draining, however this only deals 1d4 points of draining damage for the duration of contact and no Strength drain. Targets immune to cold damage are subject to only 1d10 points of draining damage (1 point if the projector is withholding), while creatures with a resistance to cold do not apply their resistance to the damage. Obsidian is immune to Touch of the Black. This attack cannot affect incorporeal or gaseous targets. This attack is considered a full round action.
Improved Grab(Ex): When projecting as Huge size, the shadow projection may use an improved grab to grapple targets as a prelude to using the Black Lure ability.
Special Qualities: The projection loses all special qualities it possessed in normal form.
Damage reduction (Ex): A shadow has damage reduction of 10/magic and steel.
Incorporeal: A shadow projection is incorporeal.
Immunities (Ex): Shadow projections are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects. Projections are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Shadow projections are immune to the environmental qualities of the Black itself.
Vision (Ex): Shadow projections are granted low-light vision. When on the Black shadow projections gain dark vision 120.
Projection (Sp): Because a shadow projection is only an incorporeal shadowy projection of its normal form, the shadow projection cannot affect or be effected by anything in the material world. Once projected, the DM determines the quality of the light to calculate the projection’s Constitution score. Daylight grants a 30 Constitution score. Moonlight grants a Constitution score of 4. Late dusk and early dawn grant a Constitution score of 10. Early morning and late afternoon grant a Constitution score of 20. Total Darkness reduces the Constitution score to 0 and the projection is disintegrated and the creature dies instantly. Effectively, shadow projections are incorporeal but can only be hit by other shadow projections or by magic steel weapons, which strike the projection as if it were solid. When projected onto Athas, the being cannot cast spells or use psionic powers, but if any were readied before projecting they are not erased from memory by the act of the projecting. The projection still retains all learned skills the projector has. At will, as a free action, the shadow projection may will portions of istelf into a more solid form, solid enough to physically grapple a target with improved grab, but the shadow projection is still affected by the material world the same as its other forms.
Special Weakness:
Arcane allergy (Su): Projections have particular vulnerabilities to pure arcane energy. A wizard who has charged a spell may use a touch attack instead of discharging the spell. With a successful attack the wizard discharges the arcane energy doing 1d10 points of damage per level of the spell + 1 point of damage per level of the character, no save. The discharging wizard still suffers from Touch of the Black, if the touch attack is successful
Climate/Terrain: Same as the base creature.
Organization: Same as the base creature.
Challenge rating: Same as base creature +? (Anyone care to try?)
Treasure: Same as the base creature.
Alignment: Any
Advancement: By character class
SHADOW PROJECTED CHARACTERS
Saves: Same as the base creature.
Abilities: When the shadow projection acquires a new size, its Strength and Dexterity change with the new size as per MM. Constitution is determined by strength of illumination. All other abilities as base creature.
Skills: Same as the base creature, except +15 bonus on Hide checks to remain unnoticed.
Feats: Same as the base creature.
So? If it isn't clear already, shadow giants are quite unlike any other creature.
ahhh but the point was I was trying to work them out within the rules.... not create a whole new type of spell rule for them specifically.... so if you are wanting to work up an unprecedented system for them, more power to you.... I have done that myself many many many times on different ideas in games... I love building new systems....
I'm with Brax on this. I believe you are interpreting the word "sacrificed", in the context used, mistakenly. The rules mechanics for the dragon metamorphosis had not been devised until after Troy Denning wrote the books, and at that they were written up without consultating him about what he intended. They were a best-effort interpretation. It cannot be asserted that Troy Denning wrote those passages with knowledge for a mechanic that had not yet been put into game terms... i.e. a specific spell.
actually you are incorrect in this.... while the game rules for the dragon metamorphosis had not been generated.... Denning created the method of drain for dragon magic himself in his novels and in the box set there was refference to the dragon draining animal life. So the method was actually created by the first novel.... and the people who wrote the spells based them (at least in a large part) off his work.... so the manner of sacrifice was something he foreshadowed in his own books. And he showed in MULTIPLE instances that the SK's drained/sacrificed animal life to power their magic.... and Kalak specifically used animal life to power his transformation in attempt to become a dragon.
And, IMO, I do not believe that "sacrifice" must have meant they were used as a component for the metamorphosis spell. It could have been any other unspecified magic they were "sacrificed" for, or it could have even meant simply discarded like an obstacle in the way so that a final effect could be attained.
there is a possibility that your use version of what sacrifice means, is correct however given that each time prior that Denning reffered to the SK/champions sacrificing or using up creatures it reffered to them being used as a source of power for animal life fueled spells. Heck in the novels the levy given to the Dragon were drained of their life and their bones left in the one area.
I'll try to get them all together soon...
I look forward to it, and if you want I may be able to help you flesh it out in some way. Even when I am personally not behind an idea, I still love the challenge of getting it to work in a system.... I am a massive rules lawyer, it is part of why I build so much stuff for RPGs
in the quote I gave in the prior posts about amber enchantress and cerulean storm.... specify that they were sacrificed by the champions to power the spells rajaat cast to make borys the dragon. and that they specifically do not have life force. As the champions powered spells through animal life force it becomes quite obvious what this means.
This quote? :
"Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat--of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate."
Again what is mentionned here is "sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master", not "sacrificed to complete the imprisonnement of their master".
I'm with Eric and Brax: I believe the meaning you input to the word sacrifice is wrong and without it your main argument does not stand.
Everything you say about Denning showing dragons/Champions/SKs defiling animal life force, thus killing the creatures, thus the halflings are undead, is only valid in this context if the Champions sacrificed the halflings to power a spell. I do not believe the novel says that.
Besides, dead halflings, like anyone else, go to the Gray to dissolve, they do not end up trapped in the Black to become uber beings of shadow. One can always imagine an ad hoc mitigating factor to Rajaat's imprisonment spell involving killing halflings and then trapping them in the Black along with a powerful enchantment capable of providing for them a body...but its just silly.
1. they bleed shadow stuff, not blood.... save in the half form in the final novel. normal shadows in novels by other authors for normal D&D worlds also bleed shadow when cut.... this is a normal description of the types. So the arguement is moot on this point.
2. reproduction... this is NEVER stated what form it is in the novels... in fact the few refferences too it are totally unlike normal halfling patterns... I have given multiple ways undead can reproduce... spawn, ritual/spell, and heck even some undead are capable of producing living children in normal D&D. So again this does not prove they are not undead in any way.
3. at no point does it state they grow old and die.... and even undead can die in the right circumstances.
Those are all good arguments, valid.
On the other hand, first time and every subsequent time I read PP I never saw the SGs as undead. Reading of subsequently published non-novel DS products - say, DSMCII - supported this perception I first had about the nature of SGs. Guess I'm not alone.
Also, I never read other D&D novels, and those novels in question would not have SGs anyway, they have..what, shadows? as in the D&D monster? Not the same.
Weren't the SGs hoping to free Rajaat so they could retrieve their true form? That to me means their true nature is flesh and blood halflings.
I never heard that shadows (the monsters) bleed shadow when cut. That must be from a novel.
About growing old and dying, it is a simple assumption based on this: Do you have the impression that Khidar and the others are immortal beings dating from Rajaat's imprisonment? I did not get that feeling. Since the world ain't overrun with new generations of SGs either then I'm assuming the old ones die.
The SGs are stated as incubating their growing young into progressivly bigger obsidian spheres. I've never heard of growing undead anywhere. Undead are spawned from a newly dead corpse, and then stay unchanged in terms of biology. The taking of wives points towards a standard - albeit Black-shifted - system of reproduction requiring two individuals of opposed sex.
As to "immortality" and the SGs, I currently am not sure on this issue. Possible clues are probably in the CL, where I believe Umbra, in his narrative comments, may make one or two statements concerning how long he had been serving House Lubar. It is difficult to say. I imagine however that they are not immortal as far as age goes, but at the moment this is little more than conjecture.
Furthermore, 3rd edition rules being forced on our discussions about very tricky matters as these are slightly cumbersome... for those of you who are familiar, 2nd edition terms and logic should be preferred, so that their operation can be established. The conversion to 3.5 or what have you can be performed after the 2nd edition roots are established. I doubt this recommendation will be followed, but I think we should keep it in mind. Denning did not think 3.5.
And I agree Pennarin, and to all else who have mentioned this, that the word "sacrifice" from the AE is difficult to define. I am not sure what it means as of now, although if I recall there are some pertinent clues peppered throughout the PP.
Good post Pennarin.
Thats my two bits anyway.
As for Seker's continuing argument for making them pro-undead based on 3e terminology, let me quote from the Outsider entry in the SRD:
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
...
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.
The first, "general" description of an Outsider *perfectly* fits what we know about SGs, sentence-for-sentence:
1) An SG's body is shadow-stuff; the "essence" of the Black.
2) SG's, although shadow-stuff, are *not* the Black itself - they are not the "material" of the Black. We know this as there is at least one example of an SG pulling someone through the Black, and also we have the scene where Khidar looks "into" the Hollow to "speak" with Rajaat. In both cases if an SG were made of the Black itself, neither of these scenarios likely would have happened; the closest in-game equivalent I can think of is an earth elemental's ability to move through earth as if it wasn't there - while in the ground there is nothing to "separate" them from the earth around them, they meld completely.
3) The SGs started out as halflings from the material plane, were involved in some of the most potent, Epic-level magic you can imagine that involved them being "sacrificed" in some way that dealt with their life-force, and resulted in them being bound to / sent to the Black. Sounds to me like a case of them attaining a "lower state of spiritual existence"; you can definitely argue the semantics of this, but as far as I'm concerned I'll take "a loss of life-force" as being semantically equivalent to "a lower spiritual state."
4) If an SG has no "life force" per se, then their body - whatever it may be - isn't going to be separate from their essence; it's all one thing. When Umbra dies, that's it - no corpse left around, no spirit returning to the Black...he's totally gone, man. I can't even think of any fluff that would lead us to believe that there *is* any sort of difference between an SG's shadowy form and their "soul", so again we've got a case of the Outsider type meshing with what we know about the SGs.
On the other hand we've got this to go off of in regards to undead:
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
We have no proof of any sort that the "sacrifice" of the halflings literally meant "death" (which is a required step to become "once-living" of course), and there are particular implications in the use of the word "animated by" in this sentence - it hints that they are not in essence "objects" that are made to move, similar to a construct (as pointed out by Seker), through spiritual and/or supernatural means. In the case of the SGs, we have repeated examples of them being treated as/referred to as if they were living creatures, not simply previously living shells that are somehow kept alive - true, nowhere in the PP does it say that they're alive, but we have those examples of them referring to their wives, children, showing emotions, etc. Those don't exclude undead (as Seker has stated), but they do nothing to *support* the idea of undeath as well.
Anyway Seker, unless you can shoot down how the 3e definition of "outsider" is less fitting for an SG than the brief "undead" definition I'm not sure how you can argue this from a rules perspective.
Anyway Seker, unless you can shoot down how the 3e definition of "outsider" is less fitting for an SG than the brief "undead" definition I'm not sure how you can argue this from a rules perspective.
I'd also really like to see solid precedence for them being undead in 2e.
I'd also really like to see solid precedence for them being undead in 2e.
I think the 2e monster entry for them actually listed SGs as being undead; I think Seker referenced this many posts back.
I think the 2e monster entry for them actually listed SGs as being undead; I think Seker referenced this many posts back.
No it doesn't. If there's a solid reference naming them as such, then fine. I'm not seeing it, though.
I think the 2e monster entry for them actually listed SGs as being undead; I think Seker referenced this many posts back.
The Lesser Shadow Giant entry in The Road of Fire booklet, in Dragon's Crown, shows no indication that creature is undead.
The Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium II entry for the Shadow Giant doesn't either. Further, it states in the Habitat/Society section that "Shadow giants are the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat who the Champions sacrificed to complete the betrayal of their master. These halflings merged with the Black and [...]
The shadow people can emerge only partially from the Black until Rajaat's prison is destroyed. Sicne the Dragon's death they can take the form of half-shadows, appearing as varying portions of shadow and halfling."
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: High (13.14)
TREASURE: U (F)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1.4 (ld4)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d6 + special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strength drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L.H (10..25.) tall)
MORALE: Elite (15.16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 9,000
PSIONICS SUMMARY: Nil
PLAYER.S OPTION : MAC 9
Shadow giants, or shadow people as they prefer to call themselves, are the descendants of the halflings who served Rajaat the Warbringer during the Cleansing Wars. They appear either as shadowy, two-dimensional, vaguely humanoid shaped silhouettes with ropy limbs, serpentine torsos, and blue embers in place of eyes, or as solid, three-dimensional shadows as tall as half-giants. Bright light adds size and depth to a shadow giant. The brighter the light source, the larger the shadow giant appears In full sunlight a shadow giant can grow to 25 feet. The shadow people speak the ancient languages of Ur Draxa and the civilized halfling nations, and the common tongue of the Tyr region. When a shadow giant speaks, black fumes rise from a blue gash that opens where its mouth would normally be.
Combat: A shadow giant can strike with both fists, causing 2d6 points of damage. The very touch of the creature is deadly; its connection to the Black allows it to draw strength out of its victims. A single hit from a shadow giant.s fist drains 1 point of Strength from the victim. A creature reduced to zero Strength points collapses from fatigue and falls unconscious for 2d4 turns. Upon awaking, the victim.s Strength returns at the rate of 1 point per turn. Most shadow giants favor their more potent Strength drain. To initiate contact, a shadow giant must announce its intention to touch a victim and then successfully attack with a +2 bonus. It can make one attack per round this way. The grip of a shadow giant is bitter cold, sapping strength and warmth from those who are touched. Each round that the shadow giant maintains contact with a victim, the victim loses 1d4 points of Strength. When a shadow giant grips a target, blackness spreads slowly
from the contact point to engulf the target. The growing black stain of a shadow giant.s touch is accompanied by a cold, numbing pain that draws heat from the body. A shadow giant can also pull a target into the Black, the nether dimension where it normally dwells. If the shadow giant releases a target in the Black, the victim loses its way and can.t return to the normal world. Normal weapons and magical weapons of less than +2 enchantment harmlessly pass through a shadow giant and emerge brittle and covered in darkness. For the next 2d4 rounds, every time the weapon hits something it must make a
successful save vs. crushing blows. A failed roll indicates that the weapon shatters on impact. Bright light and light-producing spells make a shadow giant larger and more substantial, even healing previously inflicted damage. This healing ranges from 1 point for torch light to 2d4 points for continual light spells and full daylight. The absence of light, on the other hand, weakens a shadow giant, for without a light source there can be no shadows. Finally, while a shadow giant is immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells, it is very susceptible to pure magic. The very touch of a defiler or preserver who has lust gathered the life force necessary to cast magic inflicts 1.6 (1d6) points of damage per the level of spell used. The mage uses a memorized spell, but no spell effect takes place Instead, the pure magic is used to attack a shadow giant.
Habitat/Society: Shadow giants reside both in the Pristine Tower in the Athasian an wastes and in the nether mension known as the Black Shadow giants are the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat who the Champions sacrificed to complete the betrayal of their master. These halflings merged with the Black and can only interact with the real world in the form of shadows. The shadow people can emerge only partially from the Black until Rajaat.s prison is destroyed. Since the dragon.s death, they can take the form of half-shadows, appearing as varying portions of shadow and halfling. In this form, the halfling portion is vulnerable to normal attacks.
Ecology: No one knows how much time the shadow people spend in the Black or on Athas. It is not known what they eat. The shadow people desire obsidian. For a long time one of the noble families of Urik gave them 100 unblemished balls of obsidian each year. These balls of varying sizes were used as eggs to incubate the shadow giants. young.
Edit: Ack, Pennarin seems to have beaten me to it. The juicest parts, at least.
This quote? :
"Our race was born of the magic which made Borys into the Dragon. We're the descendants of the loyal servants of Rajaat--of the men and women whom the champions sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master. When Borys dies, our race will be released from its fate."
Again what is mentionned here is "sacrificed in order to complete the betrayal of their master", not "sacrificed to complete the imprisonnement of their master".
I'm with Eric and Brax: I believe the meaning you input to the word sacrifice is wrong and without it your main argument does not stand.
Everything you say about Denning showing dragons/Champions/SKs defiling animal life force, thus killing the creatures, thus the halflings are undead, is only valid in this context if the Champions sacrificed the halflings to power a spell. I do not believe the novel says that.
I am going to have to go over all the refferences in all 5 novels to compile all the stuff on SG's again, I did not intend to have to but I will. But may take a bit, so will have to get that for later this weekend.
Pennarin]Besides, dead halflings, like anyone else, go to the Gray to dissolve, they do not end up trapped in the Black to become uber beings of shadow.
there are exceptions to that rule, undead being the main exception. Also if the halflings strength of will was strong enough for them to become undead due to their loyalty to Rajaat then it follows the standard order of undead creation that they would be linked to the Black which surrounds his prison.
Also, I never read other D&D novels, and those novels in question would not have SGs anyway, they have..what, shadows? as in the D&D monster? Not the same.
Weren't the SGs hoping to free Rajaat so they could retrieve their true form? That to me means their true nature is flesh and blood halflings.
I never heard that shadows (the monsters) bleed shadow when cut. That must be from a novel.
yes it was from several novels... just as the SG's bleeding shadows... it was a descriptive term just like in this novel. That is a common literary style used when reffering to incorpreal creatures when they are injured.... leaking ectoplasm, shadows, grey whisps, ect...
About growing old and dying, it is a simple assumption based on this: Do you have the impression that Khidar and the others are immortal beings dating from Rajaat's imprisonment? I did not get that feeling. Since the world ain't overrun with new generations of SGs either then I'm assuming the old ones die.
Considering we do not know how often the "egging season" is... we have no idea how long there is between generations so the assumption that they would overrun the world in a mere couple thousand years has no basis in the information given.
The SGs are stated as incubating their growing young into progressivly bigger obsidian spheres. I've never heard of growing undead anywhere. Undead are spawned from a newly dead corpse, and then stay unchanged in terms of biology. The taking of wives points towards a standard - albeit Black-shifted - system of reproduction requiring two individuals of opposed sex.
Actually you are incorrect on your facts on undead here. The Libris Mortis goes over several methods of undead creating more of their kind, including a few that can actually create more of their kind without actually transforming a living creature into one. (both blood amniote and dream vestige have the self-spawn ability, which does not require a living body to form a new one of their race.... they just need to drain enough of a specific substance to do so.)
Also there are at least a half dozen undead in the Libris Mortis alone that actually increase in size as they gain more HD.
Furthermore, 3rd edition rules being forced on our discussions about very tricky matters as these are slightly cumbersome... for those of you who are familiar, 2nd edition terms and logic should be preferred, so that their operation can be established. The conversion to 3.5 or what have you can be performed after the 2nd edition roots are established. I doubt this recommendation will be followed, but I think we should keep it in mind. Denning did not think 3.5.
And I agree Pennarin, and to all else who have mentioned this, that the word "sacrifice" from the AE is difficult to define. I am not sure what it means as of now, although if I recall there are some pertinent clues peppered throughout the PP.
Good post Pennarin.
I agree Penn's post was good, though I have responded to several points in it.
On using 2nd edition rules and then translating them. 2nd edition was not as exacting as 3.x so that really would make the arguements even worse. Plus have not several people here been arguing that my refferencing anything from 2nd edition was useless as the rules in 3.x are totally different. you guys cannot have it both ways.
(and actually in 2nd edition it was not specifically stated they were undead, though they were given all of the abilities of the undead... though it was not stated if they were or were not undead. In fact it is curious that it was not mentioned either way in the writeup. They seem to have been in 2nd edition to be a cross between the 2nd edition shade, and the 2nd edition shadows.... one is undead and the other is not.)
Dirk, wonderful post, thank you for bringing that up. I was actually planning to bring up the points on the outsiders in my post this time myself.
and actually I agree that outsider is almost perfect for the SG's.... except for one important thing. Outsiders are living creatures and have life force. Please do not confuse life force and soul (though outsiders do have a soul it is just intrinsicly linked to the body so does nto seperate at death.)
The SG's are specifically said in the novels to have no life force, and in fact are injured by pure life force (such as the energy gathered for arcane spells)
Personally I feel they are a cross between outsiders an undead by how they are in the novels.... however by the existing rules for 3.5 they would have to be one or the other not both. And as undead overrides outsider by the rules....
To be honest ot do this properly without making them undead, we would have to create a new type for them.... like they did for the deathless (so as to have non living creatures not linked to the negative material plane)
Also if the halflings strength of will was strong enough for them to become undead due to their loyalty to Rajaat then it follows the standard order of undead creation that they would be linked to the Black which surrounds his prison.
Poetic symmetry, but wishful thinking I'd surmise.
If dedication is what sustains them, then they become Wraith, like everyone else.
If its belief in gods, Raaig.
For example, what form has Andropinis taken since he's been trapped in the Black? Trapped in the Black? Ring a bell? Andro is probably a shadow giant now, but one that's prevented by Rajaat's magic from leaving the Black.
Considering we do not know how often the "egging season" is... we have no idea how long there is between generations so the assumption that they would overrun the world in a mere couple thousand years has no basis in the information given.
We can't assume the Heroes stumbled on the first egging cycle either, or even the second. Those SGs have been doing that long enough to know what they are doing.
Besides, the DSMCII entry clearly mentions SGs are the descendants of Rajaat's halfling servants. Unless of course you want to limit all SG information at the level of the PP novels.
Mmm, considering, I think the newly trapped halflings probably went to Rajaat's prison near the Black and asked for help. Rajaat thought for a while and told them to gather spheres in the Steeple chamber, etc etc, and that this way they could have future generations...instead of just dying out of old age in the Black.
Actually you are incorrect on your facts on undead here. The Libris Mortis goes over several methods of undead creating more of their kind, including a few that can actually create more of their kind without actually transforming a living creature into one. (both blood amniote and dream vestige have the self-spawn ability, which does not require a living body to form a new one of their race.... they just need to drain enough of a specific substance to do so.)
You're spliting hairs, seker. 20+ years of D&D and they finally come up with undead that self-spawn. In this case I'm refering to the 99.9% of the other undead out there.
Also there are at least a half dozen undead in the Libris Mortis alone that actually increase in size as they gain more HD.
I'm not going to mention all possible details and avenues and cover all bases of all arguments. If I did my posts would look like Xlorep's...and I don't have the stamina for that. A few of the details that I've left opened in my arguments, and that you've exploited in your counter-arguments, I intentionnaly left open. For example, the growth of undead. Of course undead can grow, in HD and thus size. What they don't have is growth linked to a life cycle, as they don't have one. Their growth is not due to biology. Undead gaining HD is quite the esoteric plot device: the DM is the one that determines when, where, and how this happens, as usually no mechanism is present. A few of the undead have a mechanism for gaining HD, such as the blood amniote, but shadows and mummies do not. Yet they too can be advanced creatures with more HD than the average.
Seker, tell me if I become too bombastic in my discourse, ok?
I usually can't hold my own in arguments...
/me jinxing it, mhuahahaha
Poetic symmetry, but wishful thinking I'd surmise.
If dedication is what sustains them, then they become Wraith, like everyone else.
If its belief in gods, Raaig.
Actually wraiths are sustained by the gems acting as phylacricies by the novel... at least the ones serving Borys were.
And by how undead are represented it is the strong will/focus of their being that creates an undead. This is both in dark sun and in other game worlds.... each undead has a poetic symetry.... that is part and parcel with undeath.
gluttons become faels, never able to sate their hunger
dwarves who violate their focus become banshees, forever cursed to haunt the broken focus
elves who die running to complete a mission become dune runners, forever cursed to run
warriors who die unjustly rise as fallen, to fight forever.
weak willed servants of creatures that rise as undead become Ioramph, forever doomed to serve
etc...
this is how undeath is written in the system and fluff.
And as I was saying before, there are several undead in normal D&D linked to other planes rather than the negative material plane (which in athas is represented by the grey to some extent)
Shadows being a major example.... no one knows how the first shadow came to be.... just that it is linked to the plane of shadow instead of negative material plane.... and it is considered undead.
For example, what form has Andropinis taken since he's been trapped in the Black? Trapped in the Black? Ring a bell? Andro is probably a shadow giant now, but one that's prevented by Rajaat's magic from leaving the Black.
that is pure assumption on your part... as far as I am aware they have never stated what Andropinis looks like in the Black
We can't assume the Heroes stumbled on the first egging cycle either, or even the second. Those SGs have been doing that long enough to know what they are doing.
but by the same token you are assuming that this is the hundreth or more cycle.... that does not make sense either... and Sysane had a point on the idea of thruthfullness on the SGs part.
btw on the age of the SG's all it seems to mention that I could find was in the amber enchantress (page 301) when khidar found out that Umbra was dead and he was the new Sacham.... he stated that they had traded the services of their Sacham for centuries with the family Lumbar.... but not wether he was talking about a singluar Sacham (which is implied by the sentence) or a succession of them.
Besides, the DSMCII entry clearly mentions SGs are the descendants of Rajaat's halfling servants. Unless of course you want to limit all SG information at the level of the PP novels.
Mmm, considering, I think the newly trapped halflings probably went to Rajaat's prison near the Black and asked for help. Rajaat thought for a while and told them to gather spheres in the Steeple chamber, etc etc, and that this way they could have future generations...instead of just dying out of old age in the Black.
First off, several people on here were arguing against me using rpg from the 2nd edition rules to try to help define the SG's and now you are doing the exact same thing *shrug* either way it does not matter.
Just because some of the SG's are younger cause they were born later does NOT make all of them younger. This is another assumption on your part.
I am trying to leave the information open to allow for other interpitations.... I am only trying to use the RULES AS WRITTEN to define the base part of them... their type.
And as they are specifically stated as having no life force, this limits them to only 2 types by the rules.... construct or undead. As I have said before, we could create a new type for them that would link the outisder and undead components that we see in them, and this would be great. But by the rules for 3.5 they are undead.
I personally love the outsider type and it would fit perfectly EXCEPT for the fact that they have no life force.
You're spliting hairs, seker. 20+ years of D&D and they finally come up with undead that self-spawn. In this case I'm refering to the 99.9% of the other undead out there.
actually there were other undead in prior versions that could do similiar things, they just were not common and most have not been brought into 3.5 in official releases.
oh yeah and the Umbral creature template from the Libris Mortis is also extremely similiar to the SG's from the novels.
I'm not going to mention all possible details and avenues and cover all bases of all arguments. If I did my posts would look like Xlorep's...and I don't have the stamina for that. A few of the details that I've left opened in my arguments, and that you've exploited in your counter-arguments, I intentionnaly left open. For example, the growth of undead. Of course undead can grow, in HD and thus size. What they don't have is growth linked to a life cycle, as they don't have one. Their growth is not due to biology. Undead gaining HD is quite the esoteric plot device: the DM is the one that determines when, where, and how this happens, as usually no mechanism is present. A few of the undead have a mechanism for gaining HD, such as the blood amniote, but shadows and mummies do not. Yet they too can be advanced creatures with more HD than the average.
however I am a huge rules lawyer and will tear holes in arguements that are sweeping in statement and I can easily disprove.
I have shown holes in every single statement you have made about undead that would preclude the SG's from being one. You have been presenting a very very narrow view of what it is to be undead. I am just correcting those assumptions to show that there is nothing by the rules that would preclude the SG's from being undead.... and the fact that they have no life force (which is specifically stated in the novels, unlike many of the things you have refferenced) limits the number of types that can actually be by 3.5 rules.
Again as I have said we can create a new type for them, but barring that you are limited by the rules to either construct or undead.
Seker, tell me if I become too bombastic in my discourse, ok?
no problem.... actually I have been having alot of fun on this conversation.... and you know me... I am a massive rules lawyer, you should see when me and Xlor get into it on discussions it is great.
the arguements that never end
btw you have made alot of good points, my issue has been that the types in 3.5 are very clear on this point and that is what I am going over.
And btw, as you know, even if I do not agree with people on how things are in a system.... afterwards I will help them write stuff up their way as well.... but as long as it is in the discussion of what they actually are.... I will fight tooth and nail.
But for peoples own games I will help them with the rules as they want them.
Look forward to talking with you more on this.
Seker - Glad you approve of my post; I did mah best, sirrah! I'm going to re-quote the Outsider entry once more, since you and I only seem to have the 1 difference of opinion in regards to SGs being of that creature type:
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
...
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.
I believe that the major flaw in your argument is how much you're hinging on the SG's lack of life force and how that "has" to make them undead. Going strictly off of the description of an Outsider, above, I see no reason why having "no life force" excludes them. Yes, outsiders are "living creatures," but by definition they're not alive in the same way as a PMP creature is - they don't have the same sort of "life force" (to use your/Athasian terminology) that a PMP creature does. Instead, they have the essence of that plane to keep them going, in most cases being a mixture of alignment-based forces (outer planes creatures) as well as possible/probable deific energies, but it can also be (as the Outsider entry points out) the actual material, or "stuff" of the plane itself (the "...but not necessarily the material" sentence implies that they can, in fact, be made of the same material as the plane). The part about not having a dualistic nature - no soul-body differentiation - is a separate aspect of this; that's where the "they still have souls even without a life force" statement comes into play, and does so just fine within the bounds of the Outsider type.
After looking through the 3e glossary, I was unable to find anything beyond the Outsider entry - the part about "they're at least partially composed of the esssence of the plane" - that even remotely relates to an outsider having, or not having, a "life force". By the same token, however, that reference to "essence," in my mind at least, tells me that you can't apply the same rules of a PMP creature and "how they work" to that of an outsider - the two are completely different. By this rationale, the fact that SGs are noted as not having "life force" and are hence harmed by it doesn't help either side of the argument - we could plug in all sorts of different words/concepts there that apply to other outsiders and get the same sort of relationship. For example, demons "contain" the essence of pure chaotic evil-ness, and have no "lawful" or "good" energies in their structure. As such, "good" attacks are able to harm them more effectively than un-aligned attacks, and there are several lawful- and good-oriented spells that affect them more strongly than they do non-outsiders who are simply "chaotic evil".
With the Black, we're dealing with a plane that is specifically the "absence" of the things that make the PMP what it is; similar to "opposite" but somatically different enough to be important here. The Gray, unlike the Black, is the *opposite* of the PMP - Creatures on the PMP have a positive energy life force that keeps their bodies moving, while those from the Gray have negative energy "bodies" that empower them - but both of them have a *form* of life force, just at opposite ends of the spectrum. Shadow Giants, being residents of this realm of "absence," are lacking in life-force...which makes total sense if they're outsiders, since part of "containing the essence" of the Black would be an absence of life force as well. The touch of an SG, in a fluff sense at least, occurs not because of negative energy (i.e. the "opposite" energy of living creatures on the PMP), but because they're *lacking* the energy - their touch drains the heat (and by extention, strength) out of living creatures in a thermodynamic-sorta way. To stop the counter-argument that I can see coming, however, let me point out that since an SG has the "essence of the plane" their physical nature is itself lacking in any sort of heat, something intrinsic to them that cannot be changed due to the absorption of heat; so just because they can drain strength from a PMP creature does not necessitate them having to somehow suffer "burns" or otherwise "heat up" from this transfer as would occur in a normal thermodynamic situation - we're talking "the essence of absence" (interpreted to be "cold" in this case), not simply a walking ice cube.
Furthermore, rules material takes precedence over what is mentioned in the novels as far as I am concerned (I don't know how you folks do it around here but from a rules-lawyer perspective, that's how I'd argue it). The DS novels frequently contradict the rpg material (not to mention containing numerous unreliable in-character statements). I see no reason to accept this contradiction when others are rejected. I'd also argue strongly against using novel-based fluff from one edition to justify rules-based decisions in another edition. It smacks of cherry-picking those setting elements that support one's argument, while conveniently ignoring those elements that are problematic for other arguments.
For example, why accept isolated novel-based statements about the shadow-giants and rate these as more important thatn the rpg material, when the same approach is not used for the regular giants and their kooky head-swapping rituals, to use an obvious example. As far as I can tell from the Burnt World of Athas downloads, the normal giant races follow the rules precedence from the 2e rpg material, and not the bizarro stuff on the giants from the novels. The same should apply for the shadow giants. They're outsiders, plain and simple.
The Gray is filled with an energy and is its own world of spirits and other beings, while the Black is empty, no one naturally lives or goes there.
Seker, I don't really care whether SGs could be undead or not. I care whether they're made into undead, as in officially. You'd get as many people reading the PP and saying how weird it is that ToA has the SGs as undead considering this or that passage in the text.
Before this very thread opened I never heard fans complaining on the fundamental nature of the SGs.
P.S. Seker, about the Andro thing? I know there's been no info on his state while trapped in the Black, I was pointing out the similitude between the two types of imprisonment, that of the halflings and of Andro. If one resulted in becoming a SG I'm extending this logic to Andro, proposing to the DMs out there who might be wondering what's up with Andro that, well, he's like the halflings now: he's got a body made of the Black.
Just a proposal
...I'm not actually proposing he lost his levels and dragon form to instead become a ToA monster, just that he's got the characteristics of a SG.Its one possibility, and a likely one at that.
Re: "SGs were undead in 2e?" - I coulda sworn Seker said that...or someone did...and I was trying to play devil's advocate for a second if that had been the case. If it's not then so much the better as it helps the "not undead" side of this debate even more. ;)
Actually I believe I did, and I was incorrect. In 2ed they did not specifically specify that they were undead... they instead sidestepped the issue by giving them virtually every single effect and power of being undead without stating they were one.
However when I said, several people immediatly started saying that we could not use 2nd edition to prove what things should be in 3rd edition. And too a point they are right.... 3.5 is more exacting in their definitions of things than 2nd edition was. Which is why I have repeatedly quoted the most pertinant part of the type definitions.
Seker - Glad you approve of my post; I did mah best, sirrah! I'm going to re-quote the Outsider entry once more, since you and I only seem to have the 1 difference of opinion in regards to SGs being of that creature type:
and I have really been enjoying your posts, they are well thought out and for the most part accurate, the only thing you seem to be missing is the fact that Outsiders by nature are living creatures. Other planar creatures that are not living (ie do not have a life force by definition) yet animate are still undead, they are just also considered to have the extraplanar subtype.
examples of creatures that are undead and extraplanar are:
Bodak (I would need to check, but i believe in 2nd edition were also not considered undead)
Devourer
NIghtshade (plane of shadow one)
Nightwalker (plane of shadow one)
NIghtwing (plane of shadow one)
Entropic reaper
Necromental
Visage
Voidwraith
I believe that the major flaw in your argument is how much you're hinging on the SG's lack of life force and how that "has" to make them undead. Going strictly off of the description of an Outsider, above, I see no reason why having "no life force" excludes them. Yes, outsiders are "living creatures," but by definition they're not alive in the same way as a PMP creature is - they don't have the same sort of "life force" (to use your/Athasian terminology) that a PMP creature does. Instead, they have the essence of that plane to keep them going, in most cases being a mixture of alignment-based forces (outer planes creatures) as well as possible/probable deific energies, but it can also be (as the Outsider entry points out) the actual material, or "stuff" of the plane itself (the "...but not necessarily the material" sentence implies that they can, in fact, be made of the same material as the plane).
actually you are incorrect in this assumption, there are extraplanar creatures that lack a life force. But by definition they are not living. examples of extraplanar undead I gave above.... extraplanars that do not have lifeforce (ie are not living) and who are not undead yet are animate are constructs.... Inevitables for example.
This is very specifically defined in 3.5. It states that Outsiders must be living, therefor by definition have a life force of one sort or another. In Athas, arcane magic does NOT differentiate between life force types other than animal and plant. A dragon can just as easily drain a Outsider as it can a human.... However, they cannot drain an undead as they have no life force. (exceptions being the ability to drain a phylacricy of an undead that stored their life force as magical energy to allow them to remain on the mortal plane)
Being created from the actual material of the plane does not make one no longer require a life force to be living.... the only thing that allows them to be animate without a lifeforce is being an undead or a construct.
The part about not having a dualistic nature - no soul-body differentiation - is a separate aspect of this; that's where the "they still have souls even without a life force" statement comes into play, and does so just fine within the bounds of the Outsider type.
I am sorry but you have added significantly to what is read in this arguement. All that the part you are quoting actually states is that an Outsiders body and soul are linked. And this is due to the fact that outsiders are actually composed, in part, of the spiritual aspect of their given plane.... the Fiendish Codex I goes into this in detail relating to Demons.... Which means that there is no "seperate soul" to release on death. This has absolutely nothing to do with wether or not the living creature has a life force or not, it only has to do if the soul (which is seperate from life force as the life force is linked directly to if the creature remains alive... not where or what happens to the soul on death). Note this could mean that the life force of an Outsider is linked to its soul, but this would be strictly a matter of opinion of a given DM, not a part of RAW. (and even in that it would just mean that a dragon draining an outsider would be literally draining its soul in such case.... unlike every other creature type.)
After looking through the 3e glossary, I was unable to find anything beyond the Outsider entry - the part about "they're at least partially composed of the esssence of the plane" - that even remotely relates to an outsider having, or not having, a "life force". By the same token, however, that reference to "essence," in my mind at least, tells me that you can't apply the same rules of a PMP creature and "how they work" to that of an outsider - the two are completely different.
this is pure assumption on your part. And the part that states that an Outsider has a life force is the fact that they are alive. As the definitions of monster types on pages 295 and 296 of the monster manual (the section on determining typs of a new creature being created) state that any creature that is animate yet is not alive would be a construct or an undead.
And by definition a creature without a life force is not living.
By this rationale, the fact that SGs are noted as not having "life force" and are hence harmed by it doesn't help either side of the argument - we could plug in all sorts of different words/concepts there that apply to other outsiders and get the same sort of relationship. For example, demons "contain" the essence of pure chaotic evil-ness, and have no "lawful" or "good" energies in their structure. As such, "good" attacks are able to harm them more effectively than un-aligned attacks, and there are several lawful- and good-oriented spells that affect them more strongly than they do non-outsiders who are simply "chaotic evil".
per the Fiendish codex I this is arguement on demons is accurate, but your arguement on klife force is flawed as shown above.
by your own arguement here on the demon example.... for life force to "harm" a SG they would have to have an opposite form of energy... an anti-life force. As you are showing that opposite powers cause damage to creatures with a specific alignment or empowered by a specific trait. Which is actually part of the 3.5 system
your example just proved my point :p
With the Black, we're dealing with a plane that is specifically the "absence" of the things that make the PMP what it is; similar to "opposite" but somatically different enough to be important here.
actually I think you have this slightly off, and I will show you.
The Gray, unlike the Black, is the *opposite* of the PMP - Creatures on the PMP have a positive energy life force that keeps their bodies moving, while those from the Gray have negative energy "bodies" that empower them - but both of them have a *form* of life force, just at opposite ends of the spectrum.
actually you are incorrect here... they both have animating forces, not life force. In D&D positive energy is has always been linked to life force (i.e. it is the energy used to heal for example) however its opposite, negative energy while it can be used to animate is a form of anti-life force. negative energy is not a form of life force but rather its opposite. Though it is still an animating force.
just making sure we keep our terms right.
Shadow Giants, being residents of this realm of "absence," are lacking in life-force...which makes total sense if they're outsiders, since part of "containing the essence" of the Black would be an absence of life force as well. The touch of an SG, in a fluff sense at least, occurs not because of negative energy (i.e. the "opposite" energy of living creatures on the PMP), but because they're *lacking* the energy - their touch drains the heat (and by extention, strength) out of living creatures in a thermodynamic-sorta way.
I agree that the Black is a plane of abscence, a plane of nothingness... which is part of the reason I have such issues with how they portrayed shadow wizards in both 2nd edition darksun and even in Athas.orgs version.... they do not fit at all.... abscence of power is not a power source, so cannot be used as a form of energy.... it can be used to draw in energy more effectively but is not an energy source it self. (though technically it is the opposite of an energy that draws in the energy by physics and logic, not true absence. Opposite of heat is cold, etc..)
Look at atoms for instance.... in a place with no protons or electrons is there any actual power? no... there is just a unmoving mass at best. It is only through the introduction of electrons or protons that change /movement can occur.
To stop the counter-argument that I can see coming, however, let me point out that since an SG has the "essence of the plane" their physical nature is itself lacking in any sort of heat, something intrinsic to them that cannot be changed due to the absorption of heat; so just because they can drain strength from a PMP creature does not necessitate them having to somehow suffer "burns" or otherwise "heat up" from this transfer as would occur in a normal thermodynamic situation - we're talking "the essence of absence" (interpreted to be "cold" in this case), not simply a walking ice cube.
what you are arguing would make the SG's of the construct (extraplanar) type not outsider. As you are saying they have no life force, nor anti-life force. Ie not living or undead. however the Monster manual also says that creature with drain abilites are more likely to be undead than constructs.
I still don't see any compelling rules-based reason to make them undead. The 2e rules material made no mention of it, nor did it state anything about their lifeforce or lack thereof. You can't argue that because a rules source doesn't state that they aren't undead, that then makes it OK to assume that they are undead. That's a fallacy of considerable proportions.
No but stating that a race in 2nd edition that has all the rules effect of being undead and that by their very nature follow the type description of undead should be undead in 3.5 is not a fallacy.
After all the actually definition of what is and is not undead was slighlty changed between the two systems. As were several other types.
Furthermore, rules material takes precedence over what is mentioned in the novels as far as I am concerned (I don't know how you folks do it around here but from a rules-lawyer perspective, that's how I'd argue it).
as a fellow rules lawyer I would normally agree with you. However in this case, the rpg rules were based off the novel, and written in such a way to blurr lines. 3.5 is a much more exacting system than 2nd edition and has set rules for how things are created. Therefor, the original source would need to be looked at as well.
The DS novels frequently contradict the rpg material (not to mention containing numerous unreliable in-character statements). I see no reason to accept this contradiction when others are rejected. I'd also argue strongly against using novel-based fluff from one edition to justify rules-based decisions in another edition. It smacks of cherry-picking those setting elements that support one's argument, while conveniently ignoring those elements that are problematic for other arguments.
that arguement is only solid in cases where the rules for a specific creature/object/power were written before the novels.... in this case however the SG's were in the novels LONG before written up in the system. And the given system does NOT directly translate over so additional information is needed to correctly translate the information. And the arguement that they have no life force was not a comment made by a person, but rather a cause effect in the novel that was witnessed in the novel of what happened when life-energy was pulled into a SG.
For example, why accept isolated novel-based statements about the shadow-giants and rate these as more important thatn the rpg material, when the same approach is not used for the regular giants and their kooky head-swapping rituals, to use an obvious example. As far as I can tell from the Burnt World of Athas downloads, the normal giant races follow the rules precedence from the 2e rpg material, and not the bizarro stuff on the giants from the novels. The same should apply for the shadow giants. They're outsiders, plain and simple.
I personally do not agree with doing regular giants the same way as other worlds either. Athas is a unique world, and has unique creatures.... therefor should be written up as such. Just because someone takes shortcuts on other things is no excuse to take shortcuts on everything.
And as I have said before, If it were not for the fact that they do not have life force I would agree that they should be outsiders.... but as they do not have a life force and are animate, to do so breaks the rules on type.
other than the few minor issues I have outlined above though, I really enjoyed this post though. Well thought out.
Dirk has some nice stuff to say. Athas vs the Gray, and Athas vs the Black: life energy vs Gray energy, and life energy vs lack of life energy.
agreed, other than his supposition that Black generates an energy form that can animate, which violates his own arguement it was really good.
The Gray is filled with an energy and is its own world of spirits and other beings, while the Black is empty, no one naturally lives or goes there.
agreed, that is how I have always seen it.
Seker, I don't really care whether SGs could be undead or not. I care whether they're made into undead, as in officially. You'd get as many people reading the PP and saying how weird it is that ToA has the SGs as undead considering this or that passage in the text.
Before this very thread opened I never heard fans complaining on the fundamental nature of the SGs.
the problem becomes then do we want to break the rules of the game to make then some other type. Our options become:
1. break the rules and make them a living type, when they have no life force
2. make them undead (extraplanar)
3. make them construct (extraplanar) (even though they have an ability draining ability, which is possible but unlikely by the rules)
4. create a new type specifically for them
P.S. Seker, about the Andro thing? I know there's been no info on his state while trapped in the Black, I was pointing out the similitude between the two types of imprisonment, that of the halflings and of Andro. If one resulted in becoming a SG I'm extending this logic to Andro, proposing to the DMs out there who might be wondering what's up with Andro that, well, he's like the halflings now: he's got a body made of the Black.
Just a proposal
Its one possibility, and a likely one at that.
If the halflings were just imprisoned then yes this is a possible solution.... but that requires reading into the term "sacrificed" to just mean imprisoned.... on the part of the halflings.
In that specific case then this would be possible, though not ness required.... after all.
an aside, personally I believe the SG stats needs to be a template either way we do it to represent the differences in capability of the shadow giants.... after all they were individuals in the novels.
No but stating that a race in 2nd edition that has all the rules effect of being undead and that by their very nature follow the type description of undead should be undead in 3.5 is not a fallacy.
Yes it is, not least because the 2e SG do not have "all the rules effects of being undead". You can't turn them, for one thing. And the supposedly undead-nature of 2e shadow giants comes from a selective reading of the novel material, not from any clear definition of them as such.
After all the actually definition of what is and is not undead was slighlty changed between the two systems. As were several other types.
There was no unified description of what undead were in 2e. Several 2e undead shared similar characteristics, but many did not. You've made some interesting arguments here, but I think that you are needlessly stretching the case and digging into the novel fluff in order to prove your position. From a rules perspective, there simply isn't any solid basis to make them undead.
Yes it is, not least because the 2e SG do not have "all the rules effects of being undead". You can't turn them, for one thing. And the supposedly undead-nature of 2e shadow giants comes from a selective reading of the novel material, not from any clear definition of them as such.
I apologize, my wording was incorrect, they had all of the advantages of being undead, without being specifically noted as being undead.
There was no unified description of what undead were in 2e. Several 2e undead shared similar characteristics, but many did not. You've made some interesting arguments here, but I think that you are needlessly stretching the case and digging into the novel fluff in order to prove your position. From a rules perspective, there simply isn't any solid basis to make them undead.
exactly my point though, there was no unified description of undeath in 2nd edition.... there is in 3rd though.
specifically that if a creature is anitmate yet not living, it can only be undead or a construct. And the individual typs of constructs and undead go further to describe which would be likely to be which.
And on page 295 of the Cerulean Storm, it specifies in no uncertain terms that not only do the Shadow Giants not have a life force of their own (which all living creatures/plants of athas have) but they are actualled harmed by life force. (which was even in the write up of the Shadow Giants in 2nd edition.))
Do you dispute this fact?
If not, then by the rules of 3.5 the shadow giants are not living but are animate. This leaves only the following options for the type by the rules as written:
1. undead
2. construct (note some constructs by their fluff, such as golems, could actually be considered to have a life force)
3. create a new type that allows for a creature to be animate yet not have a life force.
The following types from the Monster Manual are all living types and as such cannot be used for a creature with no life force:
Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, and Vermin.
This is the whole of the arguement needed to prove my point, all of the other stuff has been me responding too others assertions that they "cannot be undead because of x, and undead do not have x"... and in each case showing examples from the rules and resources provided by WoTC themselves, where there are undead capable of what they are claiming undead cannot do. And also showing where they are likely reading into statements given by characters in the novel.
The main portion of the novel I am using is part of an action in the novel, NOT a conversation where someone could be telling only a partial truth.... it is a cause and effect situation.
Your own arguements on them being Outsiders were very similiar to my own views at the very begining of this thread, untill I reread the pertinant sections of the novels and realized that them not having a life force precludes that type.... as creatures from other planes that are animate yet not alive (hence having no life force) are still either constructs or undead, they are just extraplanar ones.... and that is by the rules and the rules alone.
This is why in one of the earlier threads I even admitted that my original assumption on their type was wrong and then I proceeded to show proof as to why they are undead (at least by existing rules) and respond to/answer peoples assertions as to why they could not.
Overall this has been great fun for me.... nothing makes me happier than a good debate over rules.... you have all made my inner rules lawyer happy.
I apologize, my wording was incorrect, they had all of the advantages of being undead, without being specifically noted as being undead.
They do not have all of the advantages of being undead. They share some characteristics with undead creatures (immunity to sleep, charm and cold spells, for example), but then so do elves, or white dragons. You can't use that as an argument. Compare them to spectres - where a spectre is harmed by light, a shadow giant is healed by it. The similarities are not as all-encompassing as you claim.
specifically that if a creature is anitmate yet not living, it can only be undead or a construct. And the individual typs of constructs and undead go further to describe which would be likely to be which.
Agreed on this point, which is a 3e rule-based point.
And on page 295 of the Cerulean Storm, it specifies in no uncertain terms that not only do the Shadow Giants not have a life force of their own (which all living creatures/plants of athas have) but they are actualled harmed by life force. (which was even in the write up of the Shadow Giants in 2nd edition.))
Do you dispute this fact?
Yes I do, one on or two points. My DS novels are packed away, but I would like to know if the reference on p295 comes from the mouth of a character in the novel, or if it is stated as fact by the author. If the former, it is immediately suspect and cannot be taken as canonical fact for rules-related decision (as I understand things).
Secondly, the 2e rules material states that the SG is susceptible to "pure magic". Life-force alone is not enough to damage them. The spellcaster must have gathered "the life force necessary to cast magic". It is the magic that a spellcaster produces that damages the SG, not the life force itself. The 2e rules material makes a clear distinction here.
Furthermore, the term "life-force" is nebulous and is in fact not referenced as such in the 3e descriptions of undead or outsiders. The undead entry states that undead are animated by "spiritual or supernatural forces". Who is to say that this cannot include life force? Without a clear definition of life force (or even a mention of it in the 3e rules) you can argue that energy draining undead are in fact animated by life force, albeit stolen. Libris Mortis lends strength to this definition in the section on undead feeding. The presence or lack of "life force" cannot therefore be used as a defining factor in whether a creature is undead or not.
As for outsiders, all that 3e rules say on this matter is that they don't have a dual nature as far as body and soul are concerned. Who is to say that life force is even a factor here? As life force is not defined in 3e, you can argue that it is separate from body/soul. Therefore it cannot be used as a factor in deciding whether a creature is an outsider or not.
If not, then by the rules of 3.5 the shadow giants are not living but are animate.
No. As I have shown above, you cannot use the 3e rules to decide on this element of the SG's nature. It cannot be a factor in the argument - you have to use the information that you have and cannot draw inferences from elements that are not present in the rules.
The main portion of the novel I am using is part of an action in the novel, NOT a conversation where someone could be telling only a partial truth.... it is a cause and effect situation.
OK. Could you quote that bit here please? As noted, my books are packed away and I'd like to see it.
Your own arguements on them being Outsiders were very similiar to my own views at the very begining of this thread, untill I reread the pertinant sections of the novels and realized that them not having a life force precludes that type.... as creatures from other planes that are animate yet not alive (hence having no life force) are still either constructs or undead, they are just extraplanar ones.... and that is by the rules and the rules alone.
As mentioned above, under the 3e rules, "life force" cannot be a factor in deciding what a creature is, simply because it isn't listed as a deciding element in either the undead or outsider section. With the 3e rules, you can actually argue it either way so it has to be discarded in favour of the rules information that you do possess.
Looking at the rules material, there are two factors that tie the SGs down to being outsiders. Firstly, they are denizens of the Black. Secondly, the 2e rules state "These halflings merged with the Black". This ties directly into the 3e rules material on outsiders which states that their body and souls form one dual unit. This is what has happened to the SGs. It's really very simple.
Overall this has been great fun for me.... nothing makes me happier than a good debate over rules.... you have all made my inner rules lawyer happy.
Absolutely. Great debate. I think, however, that you have allowed yourself to be sidetracked by the "life force" issue and have attached too much significance to it. It simply isn't a factor in 3e rules issues for undead or outsiders and you have to look elsewhere for the deciding issues. Those other issues make it clear that the SG is an outsider, not an undead. The in-setting distinction between the Grey and the Black (with the former being tied to undead and the latter tied to cold and shadows) reinforces this issue. Do you not think, considering the preponderance and importance of undead in the DS setting, that the SGs would have been identified as undead if they actually were?
They do not have all of the advantages of being undead. They share some characteristics with undead creatures (immunity to sleep, charm and cold spells, for example), but then so do elves, or white dragons. You can't use that as an argument. Compare them to spectres - where a spectre is harmed by light, a shadow giant is healed by it. The similarities are not as all-encompassing as you claim.
um your point on spectre's is invalidated by the fact that not all undead are harmed by sunlight (note spectres are not hurt by normal light but are made powerless by sunlight specifically, like vampires). In fact in 2nd edition some forms of undead and outsiders both were increased in power in darkness (the undead version of shades come to mind... I forget if they were actually called shades specifically or if there was another name for the ones that had actually taken in too much shadow and had become undead.)
also it was not just the resistances but also immunity to weapons, being at least partially incorpreal, having a str drain attack, etc..,
Agreed on this point, which is a 3e rule-based point.
glad we agree on this.
Yes I do, one on or two points. My DS novels are packed away, but I would like to know if the reference on p295 comes from the mouth of a character in the novel, or if it is stated as fact by the author. If the former, it is immediately suspect and cannot be taken as canonical fact for rules-related decision (as I understand things).
it is stated as a fact by the author, I will quote it below.
although, all of the other things on shadow giants about them being sacrificed, having , wives, breeding, egging, etc... were all statements made by characters in the novel, and as per your statement just now cannot be considered canonical fact for rules-related descisions... so if the quote I give below is a fact then they become undead by your own logic.
Secondly, the 2e rules material states that the SG is susceptible to "pure magic". Life-force alone is not enough to damage them. The spellcaster must have gathered "the life force necessary to cast magic". It is the magic that a spellcaster produces that damages the SG, not the life force itself. The 2e rules material makes a clear distinction here.
as the rules were based off the novel, the novel would take precedence here for determining the effect and wording for 3.x... as the rules (as has been said by many people in this thread) came long after the novels, and therefor risk someones interpetation tainting the results.
Furthermore, the term "life-force" is nebulous and is in fact not referenced as such in the 3e descriptions of undead or outsiders.
actually it is quite specific as it is used in the novels as representing the energy that sorcerers/wizards can drain from LIVING, and only living things, to power their magic.
And actually life-energy and life force are used repeatedly in the original box set to reffer to the magical energy that preservers and defilers can drain from living plants to power their spells. (and refferenced on the Dragon as what he can use to power his spells.) As this was the rules that were put out at the same time and refferenced with the novels, it is a valid term for relating to Dark Sun magic and the energy drained as such.
The undead entry states that undead are animated by "spiritual or supernatural forces". Who is to say that this cannot include life force? Without a clear definition of life force (or even a mention of it in the 3e rules) you can argue that energy draining undead are in fact animated by life force, albeit stolen. Libris Mortis lends strength to this definition in the section on undead feeding. The presence or lack of "life force" cannot therefore be used as a defining factor in whether a creature is undead or not.
Page 7 of the Libris Mortis (the sections on Negative energy as a supportive force and negative energy as a draining force As well as the entire section starting on page 8 (Undead Metabolism) disproves this concept.... they are very specific that the energy drain ability is caused by siphoning existing energy through the undead by its link to the negative eneregy that animates it.
As for outsiders, all that 3e rules say on this matter is that they don't have a dual nature as far as body and soul are concerned. Who is to say that life force is even a factor here? As life force is not defined in 3e, you can argue that it is separate from body/soul. Therefore it cannot be used as a factor in deciding whether a creature is an outsider or not.
All outsiders in 2nd edition had life energy/life force as they could be targetted by the draining ability of a dragon. Therefor unless you are saying that outsiders are now immune to such ability... even though per the official writeup of Athasian Dragons they are not (and as I happened to have helped write those, I am pretty sure they are effected.) then your arguement holds no weight on this.
Outsiders do have life force as that very same life force can be drained by dragons to power their spells.
No. As I have shown above, you cannot use the 3e rules to decide on this element of the SG's nature. It cannot be a factor in the argument - you have to use the information that you have and cannot draw inferences from elements that are not present in the rules.
Considering it was a factor of the rules in the original edition and is a transfered product of that, I am sorry but you are incorrect.... it is a valid part of the arguement specifically because it was part of the original system and is still part of the system.
OK. Could you quote that bit here please? As noted, my books are packed away and I'd like to see it.
glad to :D
Sadira turned her palm toward the ground, preparing to cast a darkness spell. She felt the energy flowing up her arm--then the familiar tingle abruptly vanished when it reached the black stain on her shoulder. The half-shadow gripping her by the collar screamed in pain, then suddenly released his grip and fell away. He looked as though a bolt of lightning had blasted away part of his body, with wisps of black smoke streaming off the empty place where there had once been the silhouette of a shoulder.
At first, Sadira did not understand, but then she realized what had happened. Shadow people had no life-forces of their own; they existed only as silhouettes marking the abscence of energy--usually in the form of light. So direct contact with mystic power--one of the most potent forms of energy--annihilated them.
drained energy used by wizards in dark sun = life force/life essence
As mentioned above, under the 3e rules, "life force" cannot be a factor in deciding what a creature is, simply because it isn't listed as a deciding element in either the undead or outsider section. With the 3e rules, you can actually argue it either way so it has to be discarded in favour of the rules information that you do possess.
As it was a term from the original box set for dark sun that stated that all living creatures had it, including outsiders.... then yes it can. You yourself argued we needed to use the 2nd edition rules as part of the information used to determine the stats and are now saying to throw out a core portion of the orginal Dark Sun system.
The most important deciding element in both outsiders and undead (extraplanar) is wether or not the creature is alive. The 2nd edition terms specified wether a creature was alive or not when used in the novel to describe a creature becomes the pivotal part of wether or not the creature is alive. In this case it speficies that they do not have life force, and by the information in the rules from 2nd edition this means they are not alive... period.
Looking at the rules material, there are two factors that tie the SGs down to being outsiders. Firstly, they are denizens of the Black.
First off there are numerous undead denizens of other planes (hence the extraplanar subtype on so many undead in the Monster Manual) so this point does not make them ness. outsiders, it means they are extraplanar. Which can be any number of types.... including undead as I have stated repeatedly.
Secondly, the 2e rules state "These halflings merged with the Black". This ties directly into the 3e rules material on outsiders which states that their body and souls form one dual unit. This is what has happened to the SGs. It's really very simple.
actually merging with the Black would make them Outsiders, as long as they were still alive.
But again, as they have no life force they are not alive. This is very specific in the 2nd edition rules that all living creatures have life force/life energy and can thus be drained by the most powerful of defilers, Dragons.
So unless you are saying we have to toss out not only the refferences in the novel stating this, but also the description of defiling and preserving magic entirely from 2nd edition when we are writing up the Shadow Giants, then they are not alive.
Absolutely. Great debate. I think, however, that you have allowed yourself to be sidetracked by the "life force" issue and have attached too much significance to it. It simply isn't a factor in 3e rules issues for undead or outsiders and you have to look elsewhere for the deciding issues.
It is a deciding factor unless you are suggesting we toss out the entire concept of defiling and preserving as that is one of the easiest ways to define living creatures. As all living creatures have life force/life energy in darksun... Shadow Giants do not.... this is an important distinction.
Those other issues make it clear that the SG is an outsider, not an undead. The in-setting distinction between the Grey and the Black (with the former being tied to undead and the latter tied to cold and shadows) reinforces this issue.
This is not as important of a distinction as you seem to be placing on it, as a very similiar distinction is made between the negative material plane and the plane of shadows in normal D&D...
And there are undead from both sources, which are significantly different from one another.
After all shadows, nightshades, nightwalkers, and nightwings are all undead that are based on the power of the plane of shadow not the negative material plane.
Do you not think, considering the preponderance and importance of undead in the DS setting, that the SGs would have been identified as undead if they actually were?
yes and no.... the fact was if they were undead from the Black (as 3.x rules require, let alone fluff reasons) Denning would not likely just describe them as undead for several reasons I can think of. First and foremost among them is the fact that they are so different from normal undead by the nature of their power source that by leaving the information about them up in the air till the final battle, he induces a mystery about them.... and then in the final battle finally releases the information that they have no life force, so are not actually alive.
As a writer myself, I use similiar techniques in some of my stories, to keep the readers guessing till the very end.
Great debate too, loving every post of it :D
isn't it though.... I love these kind of debates.... they are sooo much fun
reminds me alot of the times we talk online about the different aspects of the various epics we write up.
and we come up with great stuff this way.
You claim that an SG cannot be alive because it has no life force of its own. As it is not alive, it cannot be an outsider and thus must be an undead. Correct?
My points are as follows:
1) A shadow giant, if you accept the novel's claim that it has no life force of its own, instead gets its life force from the Black. It has literally merged with the Black, as stated in DS MC II. Under 2e rules, this means that it is alive and has energy that can be drained (energy from the Black, much like an elemental's energy comes from its home plane).
2) Under 3e rules, the presence or absence of life force is not a factor in determining a creature's type. It is referenced nowhere in the SRD and must be discarded as a factor.
3) Under 3e rules, the only issue is whether a creature is alive or dead. 2e rules provide for an interpretation that makes the SGs alive (see point 1). Therefore they can be identified as outsiders under 3e rules.
That's it. Your long, rambling tangents about defiling, preserving, dragon magic, rules you invented yourself and stuff other people have said in this thread are not germane to my argument. Let's leave them to one side and focus on the rules issues at the core of this argument
.This has gotten too tangential and fragmented to follow, so I am going to strip it down to the basic points as I see them.
I am fine with that.
You claim that an SG cannot be alive because it has no life force of its own. As it is not alive, it cannot be an outsider and thus must be an undead. Correct?
Correct, though this was the actual rules in 2nd edition put forth in the first box set.... and was per the original novel that they did not have life force. Thus this would make it another inconsitency that the people who wrote the DS MC II (who if I remember correctly were NOT the original author of the SG's... so it is possible for them to make a mistake like so many other that happened in the revised setting)
My points are as follows:
1) A shadow giant, if you accept the novel's claim that it has no life force of its own, instead gets its life force from the Black. It has literally merged with the Black, as stated in DS MC II. Under 2e rules, this means that it is alive and has energy that can be drained (energy from the Black, much like an elemental's energy comes from its home plane).
Under 2nd edition rules there was no rule that allowed a creature with no life force to still be alive.... which means the DS MC II was either an error due to the person writing it not understanding that fundamental, or they made an exception without any basis in the actual rules (which happened quite often in 2nd edition AD&D actually, it was not as exacting of a system)
As one of the core concepts of the SG's as shown in the novels is that they have no life force and therefor wizards/dragons are unable to drain them.
2) Under 3e rules, the presence or absence of life force is not a factor in determining a creature's type. It is referenced nowhere in the SRD and must be discarded as a factor.
It is not refferenced in SRD.... however it IS refferenced in the official Dark Sun rules from Athas.org, or at least the life energy portion which the term was synonimis with in 2nd edition. It is refferenced in both the epic rules for Athasian Dragons (which I helped write), as well as the Champions of Rajaat.
As this is in relation to a Drak Sun creature the fact that it is in the official documents on the subject therefor are usable arguements. (heck the fact that arcane magic uses life energy, which can only be obtained from living creatures is even used in both of the Dragon magazine articles on defiling and dark sun rules *shudder*)
In dark sun it is specified that all living creatures have life energy that can be used to power spells. It has NEVER differentiated between outsiders and such being immune. Life energy/Life force being required to be a living creature is a darksun term.... however that an Outsider MUST be a living creature is a term from 3.5 (and 3.0 before it) D&D.
3) Under 3e rules, the only issue is whether a creature is alive or dead. 2e rules provide for an interpretation that makes the SGs alive (see point 1). Therefore they can be identified as outsiders under 3e rules.
Incorrect, I have shown above why your assumption on this is false, you are trying to apply terms and ideas from 3.x back on 2nd edition to prove a point that in 2nd edition was spefically false. Outsiders could be drained in 2nd edition as they had life force. Shadow Giants/Shadow People, per the source that they came from, could not.
That's it. Your long, rambling tangents about defiling, preserving, dragon magic, rules you invented yourself and stuff other people have said in this thread are not germane to my argument. Let's leave them to one side and focus on the rules issues at the core of this argument
Actually my "long, rambling tangents about defiling, preserving, dragon magic, rules you invented yourself" were germain, as they are part of the official rules for gaming in Athas, per Athas.org. This is not writing the Shadow GIants up for Greyhawk where only the SRD matters, this is writing up a creature from Dark Sun in the Dark Sun setting, which has additional rules.
...Seker, your position that SGs are not alive is unsupported anywhere in the 2e or 3e rules material. It's as simple as that. You can quote novel material until you are blue in the face - it doesn't change the fact that fluff from the novels is trumped by what is presented in the rules. The rules material makes no reference whatsoever to them being undead and makes several references that indicate that they are outsiders. A few cherry-picked passages from the novels doesn't change this. I'm sorry if your only comeback to that is that the authors of the DSMCII made an error, but that's just the way it is. You can rule whatever you like for your home games, but the fact of the matter is that your own "official" monster supplement Terrors of Athas also lists them as being outsiders. It would seem that your position is not shared by your colleagues, many of whom (judging from their signatures) have posted on this thread. Rather than continue to bash this about, I think it prudent to agree to disagree in a friendly fashion
we can agree to disagree, that is fine with me.. though I will present the things that I had orignially come in here to specify first
BTW, I do find your reffenece to cherry picking from the novel annoying, as I have proven that not one single refference from the novel actually disproves them being undead, and the one reffering to life force proves they are not alive (not nessecarily undead, just not alive.)
And I find it rather presumptuous of you to state that my only comeback was that the writers were in error when that was hardly even close to my full response to your statements.
I had actually just logged in to give you the following information as well:
the definition of life force from the dictionary:
the vital force or impulse of life; one's source of vitality, spirit, energy, and strength; also called élan vital
do you argue with this definition?
Oh an btw in the writeup from the DS MC II it even states the term life force as what harms the Shadow GIants, and this is taken from the Novel, which means they are hurt by life force... and the novel detailed more information that this was due to them having no life force of their own. So stating life force was not a term used in the writeups of the shadow giants is incorrect. This is the pertinant part of the writeup.
The very touch of a defiler or preserver who has lust gathered the life force necessary to cast magic inflicts 1.6 (1d6) points of damage per the level of spell used
.
As well as a little thing that by the novels and the rules goes against your theory that
Shadow Giants, being residents of this realm of "absence," are lacking in life-force...which makes total sense if they're outsiders, since part of "containing the essence" of the Black would be an absence of life force as well. The touch of an SG, in a fluff sense at least, occurs not because of negative energy (i.e. the "opposite" energy of living creatures on the PMP), but because they're *lacking* the energy - their touch drains the heat (and by extention, strength) out of living creatures in a thermodynamic-sorta way.
as there is an Outsider of the Black in the novels that has life force and is actually drained of part of it by Abalach-Re on page 154 of the Cerulean storm.... this battle was during the day while Sadira was infused with the Sun's power and the Essence of the Black.... but she was drained of her personal life force to power a spell by the SQ.
I am sorry but your own arguements come down to the concept that you want to ignore every single source save the one that agrees with you DS MC II, (which is ambiguous) and the direct translation of it for 3.0. (and in 3.0 version they were listed as Magical Beasts??? which I never understood.) As you have said we need to ignore the novels, the fact that life force/life energy is specified in the dark sun rules material for both 2nd and 3.x editions as what wizards use to power their spells (and mentioned specifically as what harms the SG's) and that it can be drawn from ANY living creature by a Dragon. Which specifies that all living creatures have it. And last time I read the SRD/Monster Manual Outsiders are required to be living creatures. (which is odd since you are the one accusing me of cherry picking)
Heck even defilers and preservers on page 8 state unequivically that all living things have life energy that can be drained by wizards. (specifying that only dragons and avangions can possibly drain animal life.)
Even though the orignal write up is not supported by the sources that it was drawn from.
As well as per the information given on them in the orginal source, the creatures are NOT living.
I have also stated repeatedly, while the Outsider type cannot be used as the SG's are not alive there are other options besides undead.... construct or creating a new type. (like was done when the deathless type was added)
Oh and saying alot of people are agreeing with you, when everyone else seems to have stopped posting after we started getting into the real meat of the discussion... seems a little odd. And as I was not part of the monster bureau I was not involved in the discussions on the SG's prior to this thread, and to be honest I am not sure how in depth those discussions were, or if they were just going for a direct translation without considering the ramifications from all the sources.
we can agree to disagree, that is fine with me.. though I will present the things that I had orignially come in here to specify first
BTW, I do find your reffenece to cherry picking from the novel annoying, as I have proven that not one single refference from the novel actually disproves them being undead, and the one reffering to life force proves they are not alive (not nessecarily undead, just not alive.)
And I find it rather presumptuous of you to state that my only comeback was that the writers were in error when that was hardly even close to my full response to your statements.
I can live with being presumptuous and annoying. You still haven't provided any rules-based counterarguments, just repeated references to the novels.
the definition of life force from the dictionary:
the vital force or impulse of life; one's source of vitality, spirit, energy, and strength; also called élan vital
do you argue with this definition?
It's irrelevant as to whether I agree or disagree with it or not as it has no bearing on the rules material.
Oh an btw in the writeup from the DS MC II it even states the term life force as what harms the Shadow GIants,
No it doesn't. It states that pure magic damages them. Magic might come from life energy, as electricity comes from fossil fuels, but they are not necessarily the same.
and this is taken from the Novel, which means they are hurt by life force... and the novel detailed more information that this was due to them having no life force of their own. So stating life force was not a term used in the writeups of the shadow giants is incorrect. This is the pertinant part of the writeup.
According to your quote, the novel states that they are harmed by mystic energy. Again, life force doesn't enter into it.
As well as a little thing that by the novels and the rules goes against your theory that
"Shadow Giants, being residents of this realm of "absence," are lacking in life-force...which makes total sense if they're outsiders, since part of "containing the essence" of the Black would be an absence of life force as well. The touch of an SG, in a fluff sense at least, occurs not because of negative energy (i.e. the "opposite" energy of living creatures on the PMP), but because they're *lacking* the energy - their touch drains the heat (and by extention, strength) out of living creatures in a thermodynamic-sorta way."
as there is an Outsider of the Black in the novels that has life force and is actually drained of part of it by Abalach-Re on page 154 of the Cerulean storm.... this battle was during the day while Sadira was infused with the Sun's power and the Essence of the Black.... but she was drained of her personal life force to power a spell by the SQ.
I have no idea what you're going on about here. That's not my theory and I didn't post that. Dude, stay on target ;)...
I am sorry but your own arguements come down to the concept that you want to ignore every single source save the one that agrees with you DS MC II, (which is ambiguous) and the direct translation of it for 3.0. (and in 3.0 version they were listed as Magical Beasts??? which I never understood.)
No. My argument comes down to the concept that I want to acknowledge the one single rules source that talks about SGs, namely DSMCII. Hardly odd, given that this is a discussion about the rules elements of the SG.
As you have said we need to ignore the novels, the fact that life force/life energy is specified in the dark sun rules material for both 2nd and 3.x editions as what wizards use to power their spells (and mentioned specifically as what harms the SG's)...
Again, no. It is spell energy that damages them, according to both rules and your quote from the novel.
...and that it can be drawn from ANY living creature by a Dragon. Which specifies that all living creatures have it. And last time I read the SRD/Monster Manual Outsiders are required to be living creatures. (which is odd since you are the one accusing me of cherry picking)
I really have no idea what you are saying here. My argument is simple. SGs are alive and they are outsiders and this is supported by the rules. That's it.
I have also stated repeatedly, while the Outsider type cannot be used as the SG's are not alive there are other options besides undead.... construct or creating a new type. (like was done when the deathless type was added)
From a rules perspective, outsider works fine for me. But then, I'm not the one who thinks that the SG isn't alive.
Oh and saying alot of people are agreeing with you, when everyone else seems to have stopped posting after we started getting into the real meat of the discussion... seems a little odd.
Again, I didn't say that. I pointed out that other Burnt World of Athas folks disagreed with you. Not the same thing.
And as I was not part of the monster bureau I was not involved in the discussions on the SG's prior to this thread, and to be honest I am not sure how in depth those discussions were, or if they were just going for a direct translation without considering the ramifications from all the sources.
Well, why don't you ask them, whoever they are? Why aren't they stepping up to support your position?
Anyway, apologies if this is drifting into personal digs. Not my intention. You seem like a decent guy, so I am going to leave it at this.
Well, unless you come over and kick my dog or anything...
;)
Okay, we're still stuck on the definition of life-force vs. no life-force, and how no life-force apparently = negative energy to you; maybe not directly (at this point in time I can't say...you're too good at wordsmithing, it's quite possible you've stated it both ways just so you've got something to fall back on depending on which way someone takes the argument...:P), but at the very least indirectly by claiming they're undead.
To use the CS quote you so graciously provided:
At first, Sadira did not understand, but then she realized what had happened. Shadow people had no life-forces of their own; they existed only as silhouettes marking the abscence of energy--usually in the form of light. So direct contact with mystic power--one of the most potent forms of energy--annihilated them[/b].
Emphasis obviously added. That's exactly what I've been stating - they don't have life force, but they don't have life force as they represent the complete *absence* of it, *not* any sort of "negativity." More importantly, you've been trying to argue that the CS specifically stated that it was life force that damaged them: that quote there, although specifying that yes, SGs do not have life force, specifically states that it is "mystic power" that damages them. Yes, that power came from the life force of plants, there's no denying that...but if you want to base this argument on what was stated verbatim rather than by implication, you cannot argue that the CS supports life energy as being damaging to the SGs - all it supports is that *energy* (whether it comes from life, is "mystic power" or what-not) damages them. By implication, it's quite possible that other sources of energy, say elemental for instance, would equally damage them. Since you keep hinging on this quote as the "definitive statement" supporting your argument then I must ask that you explain how "mystic power" *must* translate into "pure life force energy" without inference - something you've used as a counter-argument against me. Yes, arcane energy comes from the life force of plants and animals, but somewhere in the process it's turned into a different form that allows for fireballs to spring into existence, people's minds to be charmed by mystical forces, etcetera. This CS statement, if anything, could be used to clarify at what point this "change" happens - namely, as soon as it reaches the caster's body. I patiently await your response showing how it actually supports the idea that this energy, once inside the mage, is still considered "life force" and thus is, according to Denning's design when he wrote that paragraph, what he considered to be the "bane of the shadow giants" as it were.
That having been said, since you're quoting Libris Mortis let me point out that that book repeatedly mentions that undead are "powered" by negative energy; on page 7 under Negative Energy as a Supportive Force it clearly specifies that it is negative energy above all else that "powers" undead, and farther down the page it compares them to constructs by pointing out that "constructs and undead remain separate entities for two main reasons...first, negative energy is not a requisite power for any construct." Between the first statement about how they're powered and that specific sentence differentiating them from constructs, it's clearly defined that an undead *must* be powered by negative energy...which the CS quote clearly states isn't the case with an SG. Libris Mortis was printed approximately a year after the Monster Manual 3.5, and of course is specifically about undead, so I see no reason why it wouldn't take precedence over the brief and decently unspecific definition of undead in the MM as merely animated by "spiritual or supernatural forces."
Now, if we've got that definition down - undead are powered by negative energy - and we've also got the original CS quote upon which the SG 2e stats were based upon, which specifies that SGs exist "only as silhouettes marking the absence of energy" then they *cannot* be undead. Negative energy *is* an energy, by 3e definitions - a negative one, opposite that of positive energy (i.e. "electron vs. a proton"). So right there we at least can rule out SGs as being undead, if for no other reason than that they don't meet the Libris Mortis definition of undead - they're not powered by negative energy.
I can't think of any other way to argue that "no life force" - in the specifically Athasian sense of the word - doesn't mean that they can't be "living." But I can at least argue against them being undead (done, above...I really, really don't see how you can argue this point anymore without resorting to tactics that you've already "called me out on" so to speak)...and I think I can argue for them not being constructs, either:
1) Constructs are, by 3e definition, an "animated object" or "artificially constructed creature." SGs are most definitely not the first, and the only way they could be the second would be if they were somehow "put together" by the Champions and/or Rajaat during the betrayal. I can't necessarily argue against this, but by the same token I don't think we've got nearly enough evidence to go off of to argue for it, either. So by this part of the Construct definition I don't think the SGs fit.
2) "Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected." SGs were, at one point in time, "alive"...so even if they're not anymore (no life force, as you put it) that's another mark against them being Constructs.
3) By inference (;)) an SG cannot be a construct as it has an intelligence score, which most Constructs do not have, and the primary example of a "thinking construct" is an Inevitable which are described as having an Intelligence score "and can think, learn and remember." ...However, the Intelligence of an Inevitable is *extremely* "program oriented" - they may be intelligent, but they use it single-mindedly to better complete the task they were designed for. From everything we know about SGs, they use their intelligence much the same way that a living creature would, not in a robotic fashion. Again I realize that this is simply my take on this, and not a proveable anti-Construct argument. But it's worth noting.
3) A construct's body "is a mass of unliving matter" per the MM; per Denning, an SG is the absence of energy (and matter = energy, as all us physics peeps dig, boo-yah). Should nullify that as an argument.
So what we're left with, if you refuse to accept the Outsider argument, is that an SG definitely does not fit the Undead type, and really doesn't fit with the Construct type either...leaving us with no base creature type to put them into. However, thanks to subtypes, I think we can still work them using the basic rules. Here's what I propose:
- We make Shadow Giants Outsider (augmented humanoid, extraplanar) - this is going on the SRD description that "a creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template" and of course extraplanar since they hail from the Black.
- We don't necessarily need to make a template to justify the augmented subtype; although that's standard fare, it is not essential given that, based on fluff and such, there's the probable implication that SGs are a "unique instance" of, in this case, a creature being changed (augmented) into something else. Although Andy might be similar or even the same as the SGs now, we don't have anything concrete to base that off of so don't need to figure that into this particular justification for making SGs augmented humanoids.
- We give SGs the special quality "No Life Force (Ex)" or something similar; in effect, it prevents them from being drained via dragon magic (there's never specific mention of them being drained AFAIK), and additionally gives them any other features the monster bureau feels are appropriate.
...that's it for this post; I've been distracted enough times while writing it that I'm officially lost amongst my own thoughts now.
as there is an Outsider of the Black in the novels that has life force and is actually drained of part of it by Abalach-Re on page 154 of the Cerulean storm.... this battle was during the day while Sadira was infused with the Sun's power and the Essence of the Black.... but she was drained of her personal life force to power a spell by the SQ.
Do you think Abalach-Re had at least one level of Shadow Wizard, and thus could drain Sadira's Black body?
Maybe this could be added to the writeup for SGs: how do they interact with a Shadow Wizard?
With those two people on the bureau, when the SG was designed, I'm thinking it was done properly.
I can live with being presumptuous and annoying. You still haven't provided any rules-based counterarguments, just repeated references to the novels.
that would be because the rules for the shadow giants were based off the novel, but if you say that we must ignore all information from the novels for the arguement... then no I would have nothing to argue, as you have cherrie picked your sources of information in such a way as to make your arguement the only possibility.
I was countering each and every arguement against undead, or construct, or other type that is not alive from multiple sources.... whereas your response seems to be... oh no, we cannot use that source (even though it is the original source.)
It's irrelevant as to whether I agree or disagree with it or not as it has no bearing on the rules material
how is the definition of a term that was used EXTENSIVELY in both the novels and 2nd edition rules have no bearing exactly?
Note I did refference the pages in defilers and preservers that specified the life force is a component of ALL living creatures
No it doesn't. It states that pure magic damages them. Magic might come from life energy, as electricity comes from fossil fuels, but they are not necessarily the same.
the first line said that however, the second part of that statement was and I quote "The very touch of a defiler or preserver who has lust gathered the life force necessary to cast magic inflicts 1.6 (1d6) points of damage per the level of spell used" this is from the only source you seem to accept.... that being DS MC II
According to your quote, the novel states that they are harmed by mystic energy. Again, life force doesn't enter into it.
please read the section on "Energy from Life" starting on page 8 of defilers and preservers.... it is rather long and drawn out but says in no uncertain terms that the energy that powers spells is life energy.... not life energy converted into something else. You are grasping at straws on that arguement.
I have no idea what you're going on about here. That's not my theory and I didn't post that. Dude, stay on target ;)...
I apologize that was a quote from a post by Dirk, not by you.... though you were supporting that line with your own reasoning that it was the essence of the Black that made them show no essence... I do apologize for misquoting.... I was trying to get everything done at once on it.
No. My argument comes down to the concept that I want to acknowledge the one single rules source that talks about SGs, namely DSMCII. Hardly odd, given that this is a discussion about the rules elements of the SG.
and this is the penultimate version of cherrie picking, as we would need to update the rules to 3rd edition version... as you are wanting to justify 3rd edition rules from only one single source.... which is not even the original source of the creature.
and there were several 2nd edition monsters that were turned into undead with the new rules.
Again, no. It is spell energy that damages them, according to both rules and your quote from the novel.
however per the rules in both 2nd and 3rd edition arcane spell energy is life energy.
I really have no idea what you are saying here. My argument is simple. SGs are alive and they are outsiders and this is supported by the rules. That's it.
yes that statement is supported by ONE single rules source.... however it IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE ORIGINAL SOURCE FROM THE FLUFF?NOVELS.
From a rules perspective, outsider works fine for me. But then, I'm not the one who thinks that the SG isn't alive.
agreed as long as they are assumed to be alive... then yes outsider would work.... though this requires us to ignore part of the original source and the Novel. Thus you are changing the creature into something it was not presented as in the setting.... but rather a set of rules and numbers that fit your perspective.
Again, I didn't say that. I pointed out that other Burnt World of Athas folks disagreed with you. Not the same thing.
I apologize, but how your post came off was rather insulting to me... and it did annoy me so I apologize if I overreacted in my response.
Well, why don't you ask them, whoever they are? Why aren't they stepping up to support your position?[/quote[
because to be honest I got sick of trying to talk to most of the people in the bureaus on alot of the various aspects of stuff... as I rarely get responses when I do... other than talking to Jon....Anyway, apologies if this is drifting into personal digs. Not my intention. You seem like a decent guy, so I am going to leave it at this.
Well, unless you come over and kick my dog or anything...
;)
nah I do not kick dogs... I were reinforced combat boots.... that would hurt them... and I love animals
Seker - FYI, after my last post you attributed a bunch of quoted material (some stuff about giants, etc.) to me rather than to the original person. Please edit for content, thanks. ;)
I do apologize.... if you could let me know which date the post is on I will try and get it corrected... I have posted so often on this trhead it is hard to keep track....
this is why I am responding to each post seperately now.
Okay, we're still stuck on the definition of life-force vs. no life-force, and how no life-force apparently = negative energy to you; maybe not directly (at this point in time I can't say...you're too good at wordsmithing, it's quite possible you've stated it both ways just so you've got something to fall back on depending on which way someone takes the argument...:P), but at the very least indirectly by claiming they're undead.
no I do not equate no life force to negative energy..... just that a lack of life force means not alive.
I have repeatedly given multiple options that fit given this information:
1. undead
2. construct
3. create a new type (like they did for the deathless)
To use the CS quote you so graciously provided:
Emphasis obviously added. That's exactly what I've been stating - they don't have life force, but they don't have life force as they represent the complete *absence* of it, *not* any sort of "negativity." More importantly, you've been trying to argue that the CS specifically stated that it was life force that damaged them: that quote there, although specifying that yes, SGs do not have life force, specifically states that it is "mystic power" that damages them. Yes, that power came from the life force of plants, there's no denying that...but if you want to base this argument on what was stated verbatim rather than by implication, you cannot argue that the CS supports life energy as being damaging to the SGs - all it supports is that *energy* (whether it comes from life, is "mystic power" or what-not) damages them. By implication, it's quite possible that other sources of energy, say elemental for instance, would equally damage them. Since you keep hinging on this quote as the "definitive statement" supporting your argument then I must ask that you explain how "mystic power" *must* translate into "pure life force energy" without inference - something you've used as a counter-argument against me.
as I said in my response to rekank.... page 8 of defilers and preservers is very specific on this. life energy is the "mystic power" of arcane magic.
And there is nothing in the novels or the prior write ups that state that elemental energy would effect them.... only life energy does.
Yes, arcane energy comes from the life force of plants and animals, but somewhere in the process it's turned into a different form that allows for fireballs to spring into existence, people's minds to be charmed by mystical forces, etcetera.
actually life energy fuels a the form that a memorized spell reffers to allowing the use of the memorized spell.
This CS statement, if anything, could be used to clarify at what point this "change" happens - namely, as soon as it reaches the caster's body. I patiently await your response showing how it actually supports the idea that this energy, once inside the mage, is still considered "life force" and thus is, according to Denning's design when he wrote that paragraph, what he considered to be the "bane of the shadow giants" as it were.
as to proving that, it is easy.... obsidian orbs... they gather life force OUTSIDE the body which is then converted into life energy by the caster when they CAST the spell.... also the repeated refferences of preservers releasing the excess life energy back into the soil after casting.... which would not work if it were converted into something else as soon as it entered the body..
That having been said, since you're quoting Libris Mortis let me point out that that book repeatedly mentions that undead are "powered" by negative energy; on page 7 under Negative Energy as a Supportive Force it clearly specifies that it is negative energy above all else that "powers" undead, and farther down the page it compares them to constructs by pointing out that "constructs and undead remain separate entities for two main reasons...first, negative energy is not a requisite power for any construct." Between the first statement about how they're powered and that specific sentence differentiating them from constructs, it's clearly defined that an undead *must* be powered by negative energy...
I agree ont his point on the Libris Mortis
which the CS quote clearly states isn't the case with an SG.
I am sorry at no point in the CS does it actually state they are NOT powered by negative energy specifically.... all it states is that they have NO life force.
Libris Mortis was printed approximately a year after the Monster Manual 3.5, and of course is specifically about undead, so I see no reason why it wouldn't take precedence over the brief and decently unspecific definition of undead in the MM as merely animated by "spiritual or supernatural forces."
Now, if we've got that definition down - undead are powered by negative energy
- and we've also got the original CS quote upon which the SG 2e stats were based upon, which specifies that SGs exist "only as silhouettes marking the absence of energy" then they *cannot* be undead. Negative energy *is* an energy, by 3e definitions - a negative one, opposite that of positive energy (i.e. "electron vs. a proton"). So right there we at least can rule out SGs as being undead, if for no other reason than that they don't meet the Libris Mortis definition of undead - they're not powered by negative energy.
In this you have a point. Though by this logic the only possible option is to create a new type entirely to represent them.... which I have actually stated was one of the options multiple times.
Good arguement.
I can't think of any other way to argue that "no life force" - in the specifically Athasian sense of the word - doesn't mean that they can't be "living." But I can at least argue against them being undead (done, above...I really, really don't see how you can argue this point anymore without resorting to tactics that you've already "called me out on" so to speak)...and I think I can argue for them not being constructs, either:
As I said to begin with the issue is that they have no life force and are thus not alive.... the only 2 types by the SRD is construct and undead that would fit that rule.... though you have just proven that they can be neither by being an abscence of all energy. Thus we are left with only the concept of creating a new type (similiar how they made the deathless type to make an non living animate creature that is not negative energy powered in official WoTC rules)
1) Constructs are, by 3e definition, an "animated object" or "artificially constructed creature." SGs are most definitely not the first, and the only way they could be the second would be if they were somehow "put together" by the Champions and/or Rajaat during the betrayal. I can't necessarily argue against this, but by the same token I don't think we've got nearly enough evidence to go off of to argue for it, either. So by this part of the Construct definition I don't think the SGs fit.[/quote[
agreed2) "Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected." SGs were, at one point in time, "alive"...so even if they're not anymore (no life force, as you put it) that's another mark against them being Constructs.
agreed3) By inference (;)) an SG cannot be a construct as it has an intelligence score, which most Constructs do not have, and the primary example of a "thinking construct" is an Inevitable which are described as having an Intelligence score "and can think, learn and remember." ...However, the Intelligence of an Inevitable is *extremely* "program oriented" - they may be intelligent, but they use it single-mindedly to better complete the task they were designed for. From everything we know about SGs, they use their intelligence much the same way that a living creature would, not in a robotic fashion. Again I realize that this is simply my take on this, and not a proveable anti-Construct argument. But it's worth noting.
actually this was my own feelings on constructs.... though half golems come to mind for another form of one that becomes a construct.... and is still intelligent but may possibly have no life force by the terms from the rules.3) A construct's body "is a mass of unliving matter" per the MM; per Denning, an SG is the absence of energy (and matter = energy, as all us physics peeps dig, boo-yah). Should nullify that as an argument.
again an interesting point.So what we're left with, if you refuse to accept the Outsider argument, is that an SG definitely does not fit the Undead type, and really doesn't fit with the Construct type either...leaving us with no base creature type to put them into.
agreed although the 3rd option still exists of creating a new type... as they did with the deathless which are a similiar issue.However, thanks to subtypes, I think we can still work them using the basic rules. Here's what I propose:
- We make Shadow Giants Outsider (augmented humanoid, extraplanar) - this is going on the SRD description that "a creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template" and of course extraplanar since they hail from the Black.
you run into the same problem of this violating the base tenet of both humanoid and outsider.... that they are living creatures.- We don't necessarily need to make a template to justify the augmented subtype; although that's standard fare, it is not essential given that, based on fluff and such, there's the probable implication that SGs are a "unique instance" of, in this case, a creature being changed (augmented) into something else. Although Andy might be similar or even the same as the SGs now, we don't have anything concrete to base that off of so don't need to figure that into this particular justification for making SGs augmented humanoids.
- We give SGs the special quality "No Life Force (Ex)" or something similar; in effect, it prevents them from being drained via dragon magic (there's never specific mention of them being drained AFAIK), and additionally gives them any other features the monster bureau feels are appropriate.[/quote[
problem with this quality is that it breaks the type... as Life Force in Athas is the defining feature of being a living creature....that's it for this post; I've been distracted enough times while writing it that I'm officially lost amongst my own thoughts now.
I think this was a very well thought out and intelligent post.... great job.
And you have given a truely viable arguement against undead by the rules... unfortunately the same arguement removes every standard type from the SRD.
But great job
Do you think Abalach-Re had at least one level of Shadow Wizard, and thus could drain Sadira's Black body?
Maybe this could be added to the writeup for SGs: how do they interact with a Shadow Wizard?
As she was draining all of the creatures, and Sadira specifically recognized it as her drawing her life force, not the Black or Sun energy from her.... then even if she had a level of shadow wizard (which there is nothing in the fluff to support) it would not have had that effect. Sadira was actually being drained by dragon magic.
I think that is something that should be added into the SG's, how they interact with shadow wizards would be really good information.
I can only vouch, amongst the templars of the monster bureau, for NytCrawlr and Kamelion, who I know for a fact are smart, thorough, have large vision on most subjects, and are not afraid to discuss things.
With those two people on the bureau, when the SG was designed, I'm thinking it was done properly.
then explain why the Shadow Giants are listed as "magical beasts" in Terrors of Athas?
Seriously, I think some things may have been overlooked.... this is nothing against the templars in the Monster Bureau.... they have a huge task.... heck over in the Epic bureau we have done far far less and the sheer number of ititerations of the dragons and avangions alone were massive.
And I totally agree that Kam and Nyt are extremely intelligent... and Me and you spend alot of time brain storming Penn.... but how many creatures were being updated.... and mostly it was just direct conversions.... I do not agree with quite a few things from the Terrors of Athas in its current form.... but it is still the Alpha version after all.
And let us be frank.... as the debate here has shown... the SG's were pretty much something truly strange and unique in Dark Sun....
They have no life force so are not alive in any sense that any creature from Athas would understand. And the more we look at it the only thing I can think of to do is create a new type for them..... like WoTC had to do for the deathless to represent non negative energy animate yet unliving creatures.
The matter of the halflings' imprisonment, especially the manner of their imprisonment and their exact relationship with the Black, Rajaat, etc. has not been resolved however. Also, I am not entirely convinced of my own thesis that the shadow giants no longer existed after the events of the CS... and that they were forever afterwards, if any survived at all, regular halflings, and not as the second DS monstrous compendium states, able to assume any sort of half-shadow state. I hope that the energies of those offering input on this thread might redirect their arguments to concern these more useful matters, for indeed such information is necessary regarding play of the shadow giants in actual game. Indeed, I believe a solution to such questions may be found in various passages of the PP, heretofore not properly explored within the confines of this thread, or elsewhere, to my knowledge.
Again, I hope to drop any discussion of this "undead" issue. Again, it has already been conclusively resolved earlier in this thread.
If we can once again address the question which titles this thread I would be much obliged, for as far as actual game-play goes, it is I believe an important query should the matter of shadow giants ever be brought up in campaigns played after the events of the Cerulean Storm.
happy darksunning.
then explain why the Shadow Giants are listed as "magical beasts" in Terrors of Athas?
...you have an old version of the document? :P
They are listed as Large Outsiders (Extraplanar).
The matter of any possible undead nature of the shadow giants has already been conclusively resolved. Seker is simply in error on this subject, for they are clearly not undead.
yep Dirk has conclusively proven that they are not undead.... though at the same time he proved they are not alive....
which removes outsider, and most other standard types out of the options as well
The matter of the halflings' imprisonment, especially the manner of their imprisonment and their exact relationship with the Black, Rajaat, etc. has not been resolved however. Also, I am not entirely convinced of my own thesis that the shadow giants no longer existed after the events of the CS... and that they were forever afterwards, if any survived at all, regular halflings, and not as the second DS monstrous compendium states, able to assume any sort of half-shadow state. I hope that the energies of those offering input on this thread might redirect their arguments to concern these more useful matters, for indeed such information is necessary regarding play of the shadow giants in actual game. Indeed, I believe a solution to such questions may be found in various passages of the PP, heretofore not properly explored within the confines of this thread, or elsewhere, to my knowledge.
Again, I hope to drop any discussion of this "undead" issue. Again, it has already been conclusively resolved earlier in this thread.
If we can once again address the question which titles this thread I would be much obliged, for as far as actual game-play goes, it is I believe an important query should the matter of shadow giants ever be brought up in campaigns played after the events of the Cerulean Storm.
happy darksunning.
As far as can be determined the novels said one way or another what happened to the shadow giants after Rajaat was reimprisoned.... so the rules statements that they still exist would stand unapposed... as there is no fluff or rules that states otherwise.
...you have an old version of the document? :P
They are listed as Large Outsiders (Extraplanar).
that would be why... I still had the 3.0 of the terrors of athas, had not gotten the other one yet.... though still even listing them that in 3.0... man.
Beyond that, though...I don't know what to say to either "how do we handle them, then?" or "are they still around?" as originally asked on this thread. Both boggle me, and Seker, as much as I hate to say it I honestly can't think of any way to argue for Outsider's being able to exist without life-force, at least not in a compelling way - in my own personal interpretation of the Outsider type I am okay with leaving them as that - for my games I'm fine with saying "no, you can't drain life force from an SG but yes, they're still outsiders" - but from a universal standpoint I don't know if we've got any good options other than making a new subtype.
I'm going to ponder this...perhaps there's some template that serves as an example of how you can do something that results in a creature that doesn't really match up with either it's new type or original type, or that "bends the rules" enough to justify making an SG an "augmented" Outsider of some sort.
Hrm, actually...is it possible to make them an Outsider (Augmented undead)? I realize that's a highly goofy way to go about it, and possibly cannot be done by the rules (I recall their being restrictions on what can have the augmented subtype)...but if it's a possibility, then I think it might be a way to go. Fluff-wise, basically what we'd be stating is that the halfling "sacrifice" was literal, in that they died, but rather than becoming "normal" undead they instead became wierdo Black-infused, life-force-less entities of the Black and hence Outsiders. The SRD says that augmented creatures tend to have the traits of the current type (...and Outsider is, IMO, more appropriate as far as those are concerned) but features of the original (so HD, BAB and skills of an undead...again appropriate since that gives a good Will save, which makes sense to me since we're talking creatures that are composed of little more than "mind" or "soul" as it were, since they're the "absence of energy" otherwise)
...?
However, there are numerous passages where one could infer that there is substance to the absence. Call it shadow matter, or whatever... Shadow matter has been described as wisps of ebony gas, black haze, a thick sticky mist, wispy streams of blackness, or a frigid cloud. Shadow matter on Athas has been described to interact with Athas as solid something. A shadow giant pinning a half giant to the ground, or a shadow giant swatting Rikus hard enough to knock his sword from his grasp or that same sword strike the shadow giant's arm as if it were flesh. Shadow matter also has been described as smothering, billowing vapor or icy strand of gossamer filament that infect any true matter with a black stain and a bitter numbing cold that stings the flesh and freezes it to the bone in only minutes.
So, we have a basis for going forward with calling The Black's "absence of matter"—observers from the Prime can't detect its presence until hit with it—simply "different matter".
I say it is the same with shadow giants, they are alive, it is just that non-Black creatures can't detect its presence. I mean we even have the passage where Rikus hunts down Umbra in PPII, and the wraiths can't detect Umbra. I don't have the book in front of me but there is an explanation there for why the wraiths cannot detect Umbra. It might be worth looking at that for help on the "no life force" conundrum.
As to whether the SG's are still around? I have happily made up a cosmology that differs from the Core cosmology, and it explains it satisfactorily for my own purposes.
My own campaign resolution for the SG's? I posited that the halfling servants of Rajaat didn't die out from old age. They SG's are precisely the same halflings who aided Rajaat ages ago, they have simply discovered a way to prolong their lives while imprisoned in the Black. The halfling servants knew their imprisonment was tied to Rajaat's imprisoning and by freeing their old master they would be freed as well. However, they had long ago ceased swear fealty to Rajaat's cause—look where it got them!
Instead, with the freeing of Rajaat they, too, would be free. The instant the barrier was cracked a few halflings made a show of aiding Rajaat—as a distraction—while the vast majority "escaped" by teleporting ("beaming") to their orbiting spaceship. Of course, this spacecraft (the Messenger comet) quickly landed elsewhere on Athas where the halfling servants disembarked, are unleashing havoc... with hundreds of years of planning behind them.
I'm a huge fan of Barsoom, which was a founding influence to Dark Sun, so I have no problem with sci-fi elements blending with my Dark Sun.
I agree on the "different matter" thing; I was previously arguing that an outsider, being in some way "composed of the essence of the plane they're from" doesn't necessarily have to have "life force" in the normal, Athasian way, but can still be alive, using some sort of "spiritual energy" that is their plane's equivalent to PMP "life force." Seker has argued against that, and I eventually gave in as it's more an opinion than something that can be backed up with evidence...but regardless, I'm of the same mind as you when it comes to this aspect of an SG.
As for their state of freedom...*shrug* My earlier posts in this thread gave my opinion on it, basically that the SG's "current state" is directly tied to whatever Rajaat's "current state" is...but since Rajaat is imprisoned within a sun that either means that the SGs don't physically exist anywhere (Rajaat has no physical form anymore, since his "body" was shadow which cannot exist from within the confines of a sun) - they're just "bodiless essence" now - or else they were shoved right back into the Black, reverting back to SGs because, without Rajaat's physical presence on Athas they too cannot exist there physically (...except as "the absence of" physical existence, i.e. as SGs).
If anyone has read any of Stephen Baxter's Xelee cycle, the long arc of the story is about a war between beings made of different types of matter ... the other "side" being something that we can't detect. Beings made up of Dark Matter, essentially.
Just triggered that off of some of Eric's comments. Something for me to mull over.
Yeah, loved Vacuum Diagrams. First book I ever read in english. Circa 2001. In my top 10 of all SF.
[INDENT]And it was―astonishingly, unbearably―a single object, an artifact, at least ten million light years across.[/INDENT]
~B-)
I can only vouch, amongst the templars of the monster bureau, for NytCrawlr and Kamelion, who I know for a fact are smart, thorough, have large vision on most subjects, and are not afraid to discuss things.
With those two people on the bureau, when the SG was designed, I'm thinking it was done properly.
Indeed. We are mental giants. Gods amongst men. Pennarin has proved his own mental acuity by recognising this fact...
:D
Ahem. Sorry. Returning ego to normal size...
Of all the creatures in ToA, the shadow giant went through some of the most thorough analysis, design and redesign (partly because they are such iconic DS monsters, but also because Penn kept hounding us with suggestions until we licked it into shape).
with some very slight variations, I'd say that Brian has pretty clearly explained my view points on this situation, as well.
Ditto. Agree with Squidfur abd Brian (and a bunch of others in the thread). They're not undead. They are outsiders made from purest Blackonium (which is a derivative of Handwavium, with slightly more coherent properties).
They are outsiders made from purest Blackonium (which is a derivative of Handwavium, with slightly more coherent properties).
That's a step removed from Unobtanium on the nonperiodic table of elements!