The Champions of Rajaat pretty much broke the entire world before they settled down and formed their own city states. Why would they restrict themselves to such a small area?
More importantly, there is a huge number of monsters, animals, tribes, villages, fabulous ruins, magical places and so on packed into this tiny area. And it's supposed to be a desert! How can a desert support such an immense ecosystem? Personally, I like the idea of an entire wasted world, with only these few great city-states as the remainder of 'civilization'. In between, you have vast, vast tracts of desert - so much space that it can retain the empty, endless wilderness feel of desert, while still being able to support the diverse creatures of the setting. Any journey between the cities would be truly epic, and would help emphasise the cities' cultural differences. The cities themselves could also be increased to the scale of metropolises, with each one controlling a large number of resources in the surrounding region.
No real point to that, since what's done is done, but I though I'd get it off my chest
.The Champions of Rajaat pretty much broke the entire world before they settled down and formed their own city states. Why would they restrict themselves to such a small area?
Did they really break the world? Or just a region? That is, according to some scrolls and spirits, who may more may not be telling the truth.
Perhaps they did, in fact, conquer the world, yet all that remains, besides a sea of silt is the tyr region area or they was the best part of land to settle in or it had sentimental value (where they could be close in case Rajaat escaped) or the Borys wanted them nearby? Or they didn't conquer the world. Perhaps great, thousands of year old Elemental-Kings stopped them and prevented further expansion.
As for why the SKs ended up in this area, I'd say that the Pristine Tower has a lot to do with it (the cities are strung about it in a rough semi-circle, and I had some nebulous idea once about them being part of a geomantic web tied to the tower and Rajaat's imprisonment), but as there is no real clue to this in the published material, you can pretty much go with whatever you want.
(Personally, I like the scale the way it is, and I go with the idea that the rest of the world is largely a blasted wasteland incapable of supporting life, with the Tablelands on both sides of the Sea of Silt being all the hospitable terrain that remains. What other verdant areas that exist, such as those to the west of the Jagged Cliffs, are dominated by the vastness of the kreen empire, and thus equally unsuited to humanoid habitation. Just my take on it, though...)
Any/all of those elements are of definite concern to the SKs past and present, which would explain why they haven't decided to expand. Even the mighty Kreen empire would be a small obstacle for say, the armies of Urik with Hamanu leading the charge.
Did they really break the world? Or just a region?
Well unless all the new races who were successfully annihilated were concentrated entirely in the Tyr Region, which seems very unlikely, then I think they must have done. Also the Cleansing Wars took 1,500 years, if I recall, which seems an awful long time to conquer such a small region. In my own fleshing out of Athasian history, the Champions sucessfully destroyed all the new race civilizations (with one or two extremely resolute exceptions like the Kled empire which lasted right to the end). The last centuries of the Cleansing Wars I see mainly as a mopping-up exercise: stamping out roving bands of nomadic survivors who, although much weaker than the urban civilizations, were much harder to catch.
There was a very good discussion about this some time back
Thanks, I shall go a-looking.
I know there are loads of potential explanations for why the SMs stayed where they did. I devised my own explanations once upon a time:
1) Rajaat ordered his Champions to each, at some point, take control of one city in area surrounding the Pristine Tower. Once their assigned race had been successfully made extint, they were to retire to their city to await the beginning of the new age. Possibly he wanted the victorious human armies close to the Tower so he could use them as sacrifices to power the spell which would restore the Blue Age. The reason I had Rajaat behind it was that according to the City Under the Silt Sea campaign material, Giustenal was ruled by Dregoth long before the Cleansing Wars were abandoned, implying that Rajaat had already licensed his champions to each rule a city state.
2) The Tyr Region, being the region surrounding the Pristine Tower, was the homeland of all the New Races and hence the richest, most populous and most advanced part of the Green Age world, hence it was the most desirable place for settling down after the Cleansing Wars.
3) After the end of Cleansing Wars, Borys' madness set off a chain of events which led to apocalyptic conditions across Athas. The SMs were able to use the Pristine Tower to protect the surrounding region against the worst of this apocalypse but abandoned the rest of the world to its fate.
I wasn't very satisfied with any of these ideas though. I quite like Kamelion's idea of a geomantic web though.
At the end of the Wars - a few of the SKs were already pretty well entrenched in their city-states - ie Dregoth for starters. It is logical to assume that the other SKs did not harbor much trust amoung themselves, so why would they leave the area with Dregoth all along with the the PT?
It is alway better to keep your enemies in sight - that way they have a harder time sneaking up on you.
It is alway better to keep your enemies in sight - that way they have a harder time sneaking up on you.
Then I'm going to watch you pretty close, slacker. :P
Even the mighty Kreen empire would be a small obstacle for say, the armies of Urik with Hamanu leading the charge.
I think you vastly underestimate the scope and power of the Kreen Empire.
Here are a couple of points to think about:
1. The Kreen Empire is vast perhaps 10x the size of the Tyr Region.
2. Kreen Soldiers would not require supplylines, being content to eat their enemies and capable of survive on a fraction of the water that other troops would need.
3. Kreen move much more quickly and with greater stealth then almost anyother kind of troop, never need to sleep, and rarely need to rest.
4. Kreen regenerate numbers much faster then humaniods (only 6 years to maturation and born in huge clutches).
5. Kreen never have to be equiped, their armor comes built in and their weapons do too. They can make other weapons out of their saliva and even come fitted with boots of springing and striding, nightvision googles, and poison.
Returning to the original topic of the thread, I can't find the afore-mentioned previous thread on the same subject. Any key words/topic you can remember so I can google it more effectively?
I did however, find this interesting post on another wizards forum. It includes an Earth-sized map which includeds every major D&D continent including all known Athas. The Tyr Region is so miniscule you can barely see it!
When you put it like that I'm surprised the thri-kreen tribes haven't dominated the Tyr Region wastelands already - they could munch elves and escaped slaves for breakfast.
-The reason is simple....
The Jagged Cliffs: The Kreens are poor climbers and are very sensible to chitin roth from crossing the swamp at the bottom of the said Jagged Cliffs.
This is why they are a new threat now that the great rift as created a safe passage for the Kreens to invade the interlands and beyond (Tyr region)
I have tripled the scale of the Dark sun map in my campaign.
Have you found the change has made an impact on the campaign?
-The reason is simple....The Jagged Cliffs
Actually I meant the small tribes of uncivilised kreen already in the Tyr Region. These kreen have been competing with non-kreen (especially elven) desert tribes for around 2,000 years.
On foot, it take about one month of travel.
Also, it goes better with the idea of isolated city-state
The Rigging mountain are nearly impossible to cross. The player still have bad memories of it. Four 8 hour game session crossing the Rigging Mountain. Half survived. I gave them a teleport for the return trip.
I think you vastly underestimate the scope and power of the Kreen Empire.
Let me repeat myself:
...with Hamanu leading the charge.
How are the Kreen going to deal with that? Sure, on a soldier to soldier level, they would come out on top. But what could they possibly hope to do to an SK? He'd drain one group of their life energy to power a spell that kills another group, rinse and repeat.
I think Sage is right on this one, we don't know what the zik-chil are capable of yet and their epic-level numbers...
But it is the almighty Hamanu!!! You know, he has this swell book about him, RaFoaDK, which says he is teh uber-1337!!! You just have to ignore the ending of this book, for that can't be true - it would take the almighty Hamanu away.
Let me repeat myself:
How are the Kreen going to deal with that? Sure, on a soldier to soldier level, they would come out on top. But what could they possibly hope to do to an SK? He'd drain one group of their life energy to power a spell that kills another group, rinse and repeat.
If the kreen empire has millions of kreen, if kreen have roughly the same chance as other races of being psions or priests, and if a percentage of those that is not drastically lower than the other races has gained some real power, then the kreen can field some mighty heroes of their own, certainly enough to overwhelm a single sorcerer king.
I suppose so, but even with the hive mind, mobilizing an entire empire as an army is no easy task.
, no I don't think it is really. Not as you mentioned with a Hive Mind. However, the kreen don't really have a hive mind, it's only kind of half-way there and there are implications that there are divisions amoung them, between the various breeds and possibly some rivalries within the Zik'chil. Still they seem to be far more unified then the Tablelands.
I think Sage is right on this one, we don't know what the zik-chil are capable of yet and their epic-level numbers...
Thankyou Bruno! :D
Interesting discussion.
I remember that there was some mentioning of a Thri kreen supreme being, or a supreme being working with the Thri-kreen emperor (?).
I can also see how there is actually some sort of kreen supreme being, and in my campaign I'll try and make one. It can be coherent with the rest of the communities in Athas, such as the sorcere kings and their cities, Dregoth and his drays, the Mind lords and Saragar, and the unded Avangion in the deadlands (Again, I'm citing from what I read a long time ago... I think it was in the web deadland accesory/site).
Anyone else think that the 'Tyr Region' (the original seven city area) should have been designed so that it covered a much bigger region - i.e. so that there was a much greater distance in between the cities. Personally I think it should have been at least the size of Europe, if not even bigger.
Not disguised, but I did think that was strange. I think perhaps pre-Rajaat (that is before he was first mentioned, he's first mentioned in the Crimson Legion Novel) they didn't intend for those sorceror-kings (or even Borys to be the only dragon) to be the only ones on Athas, just the ones in that region, kinda broke things when they layed out all the champions there were and made it inflexible by telling us all of them, or at least having so few, I wouldn't have minded if it told us Rajaat had 30 or more champions, some on the other side of Athas.The Champions of Rajaat pretty much broke the entire world before they settled down and formed their own city states. Why would they restrict themselves to such a small area?
My thoughts exactly. It's come up here time and again, one explanation that's given is so they could stay close to Ur Draxa and Rajaat's prison
Also, did any of them know of anything outside of Athas? Rajaat knew about the inner planes at least, that Athas, it's moons and it's subdimensions (Black, Hollow and the Grey) were not all that existed. We once had an adventure where Kalak sent 300 half giants to a portal in the mountains that went to Krynn. I'd love to see what he'd do if went there personally. ::Rubs hands together:: imagine if got his hand on all that vegetation to defile.More importantly, there is a huge number of monsters, animals, tribes, villages, fabulous ruins, magical places and so on packed into this tiny area. And it's supposed to be a desert! How can a desert support such an immense ecosystem? Personally, I like the idea of an entire wasted world, with only these few great city-states as the remainder of 'civilization'.
Personally, I don't. I would have liked to have more than just the city states, and more SK's, etc, more to the world in general.In between, you have vast, vast tracts of desert - so much space that it can retain the empty, endless wilderness feel of desert, while still being able to support the diverse creatures of the setting. Any journey between the cities would be truly epic, and would help emphasise the cities' cultural differences.
Kinda the same, I don't want desert, desert, desert.The cities themselves could also be increased to the scale of metropolises, with each one controlling a large number of resources in the surrounding region.
This is an interesting idea. Suppose Hamanu had become Emperor Hamanu and successfully conquered Tyr, controlling 2 city states. No need to install a governor when he could teleport back and forth.
I'll have to dig it up, but a year or a year and a half ago someone named Brian Sanchez (anyone have his web site address) made map of other regions of Athas.
Plus, keeping Rajaat imprisoned is the main motivation of the SK's. They settled where they did to keep him imprisoned and also because they didn't trust anyone with the Pristine Tower, or the Dark Lens that was around that they couldn't find. The Sk's are pretty easy to understand, once you see their real motivation.
Wouldn't the Tyr Region being the size of Europe really screw up the whole dune trader thing? It would take months to make a journey from one city-state to another, which would make most of the prices unaffordable for everyone except maybe templars and nobles (not to mention all the raids they would suffer)...
No
That why they use Giant Argosy and private army to transport a lot of stock, lowering price.
Wouldn't the Tyr Region being the size of Europe really screw up the whole dune trader thing? It would take months to make a journey from one city-state to another, which would make most of the prices unaffordable for everyone except maybe templars and nobles (not to mention all the raids they would suffer)...
I think I have a map of the Tyr region somewhere, the one that came with the Revised Dark Sun boxed set with the Forts included. It has a ruler that shows it to scale, 1 inch is 100 miles or something.
People are also forgetting that the deserts of Athas are mostly like the southwestern United States. Scrub brush and what not. Lots of life. Life is everywhere. If bacteria can live in sulfuric acid, then Athas, a place with magic and psionics, can support lots of life.
Plus, keeping Rajaat imprisoned is the main motivation of the SK's. They settled where they did to keep him imprisoned and also because they didn't trust anyone with the Pristine Tower, or the Dark Lens that was around that they couldn't find. The Sk's are pretty easy to understand, once you see their real motivation.
Doesn't Athas have several waste types, the tablelands are mostly dunes, but they're rocky badlands, and this and that.
Doesn't Athas have several waste types, the tablelands are mostly dunes, but they're rocky badlands, and this and that.
Indeed, the most hospitable would be the Scrub Plains and Stoney Barrens. The Sandy Wastes and Salt Flats are considerably more barren, and the Rocky Badlands might have a fair amount of life but are trecherous for their many canyons and cliffs. The Tablelands are mostly Scrub Plains (around the cities), Stoney Barrens and Sandy Wastes, with Rocky Badlands along the foothills of the Ringing Mountains and other mountain chains and the Great Salt Flat in the Ivory Triangle.
I think perhaps pre-Rajaat (that is before he was first mentioned, he's first mentioned in the Crimson Legion Novel) they didn't intend for those sorceror-kings (or even Borys to be the only dragon) to be the only ones on Athas, just the ones in that region
I agree. I think they originally envisaged the sorceror-kings simply as various self-made, unconnected powerful mage/psionicists.
Wouldn't the Tyr Region being the size of Europe really screw up the whole dune trader thing? It would take months to make a journey from one city-state to another, which would make most of the prices unaffordable for everyone except maybe templars and nobles (not to mention all the raids they would suffer)...
I don't think so. In the sixteenth century, Western European trading companies were establishing trade outposts in places as far apart as Malaysia, Mexico and the east coast of Africa. Working for these trading companies was very risky and many people died, but they also made huge amounts of money so people were prepared to take that risk. There were plenty extensive land routes all over the world, though in those cases the trade involved many more middle men. If real life medieval traders can manage such long and difficult journies and still make a whopping great profit I'm sure fantasy traders could! I think it would actually enhance the sense of adventure and of vast trade empires with forts and suchlike.
People are also forgetting that the deserts of Athas are mostly like the southwestern United States. Scrub brush and what not. Lots of life. Life is everywhere. If bacteria can live in sulfuric acid, then Athas, a place with magic and psionics, can support lots of life.
Yes it's fantasy so you can say whatever you want. But if you want to have some basis in real life ecology (which I think Dark Sun needs to go with the whole defiling and druidry concern) then, while everything can support life, you need a large amount of plantlife, based on an ample supply of water, to support the kind of megafauna that Athas specialises in. Also, the deserts of Athas cannot be postly scrub bush, otherwise there wouldn't be small regions labelled as scrub land on the official Athas maps.
Plus, keeping Rajaat imprisoned is the main motivation of the SK's. They settled where they did to keep him imprisoned and also because they didn't trust anyone with the Pristine Tower, or the Dark Lens that was around that they couldn't find. The Sk's are pretty easy to understand, once you see their real motivation.
They don't do a very good job of guarding the Pristine Tower. In fact they've left it completely unguarded and unwatched and allowed a tribe of fanatical Rajaat followers to live there!! In that context, building populous cities nearby just made the Pristine Tower much more accessible.
Plus, keeping Rajaat imprisoned is the main motivation of the SK's. They settled where they did to keep him imprisoned and also because they didn't trust anyone with the Pristine Tower, or the Dark Lens that was around that they couldn't find. The Sk's are pretty easy to understand, once you see their real motivation.
They don't do a very good job of guarding the Pristine Tower. In fact they've left it completely unguarded and unwatched and allowed a tribe of fanatical Rajaat followers to live there!! In that context, building populous cities nearby just made the Pristine Tower much more accessible.
I don't think they're so much guarding the Pristine Tower from other people, I think they're more concerned about guarding it from each other.
Athas is kinda like Africa but even more hostile. Its generally hotter with less water, no ocean and theres worse creatures than lions, elephants, crocs to contend with. Theres no other easily reachable centres of civilization to influence the city states, no Arab traders in Dhows, no rivers, no oceans, no Egypt to serve as an intermediary. Add the slt sea, the Jagged Cliffs, tribes of Kreen wanting to eat you, the Deadlands and its amazing trade happens at all.
There was plenty of trade across the Sahara in medieval times. Take the Mali empire. It became immensely wealthy in the 14th Century because of the gold and other resources it supplied to the rest of the Old World.
The Silk Road is another example of an epic and dangerous trade route across decidedly inhospitable terrain which was nevertheless highly profitable.