* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Hackmaster Started at 10-17-03 03:42 AM by Geriatric Wizard Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=116568 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Geriatric Wizard Date : 10-17-03 03:42 AM Thread Title : Hackmaster I seem to have heard a lot recently about Hackmaster. The kenzerco web site doesn't really say that much about what the game is other than it's a derivative of 1st ed AD&D. Could anyone give me a summary of the differences between 1st ed and Hackmaster? Thanks GW -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : diaglo Date : 10-17-03 08:48 AM humor. 4edHackmaster is in name a derivative of 1ed/2edADnD but it contains enough changes to really be its own game. at its basic level it plays the same. but some of the atmosphere text and rules. make it a parody of ADnD. it makes fun of: the GM vs. player schtick, the power gamer kit options, the orc guarding a chest full of treasure, etc... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Algolei Date : 10-18-03 02:54 AM And, to judge by my local gaming store, it's very expensive. Just how many "monster manuals" are there? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Solaris Date : 10-18-03 03:34 AM Eight, last time I checked. They're in alphabetical order, with 200 monsters in each book; Volume 1 is Aarakians to Cats, Great, Volume 2 is Cats, Small to Efreeti, etc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Algolei Date : 10-18-03 06:27 AM *snif* I want them. Quick, somebody give me a whole lot o' money! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : SputnikCorp Date : 10-18-03 02:36 PM i wanted to try hackmaster. unfortunatly, kenzerco also parodied the older editions need for more supplements. there's a whole slew of them. sorry kenzerco, no sale here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Solaris Date : 10-18-03 04:33 PM The number of volumes in the Hacklopedia of Beasts is unfortunate, and is, indeed, reminiscent of the endless Monstrous Compendia of Second Edition AD&D. But beyond that, although there are many supplements, I don't think they're required -- you could just get the Game Master's Guide and Player's Handbook, and maybe some remakes of a couple of favorite old modules, and be happy with that. I understand where you're coming from, though. It was Second Edition's insane proliferation of supplements, and my despair at feeling I needed to keep up, that led me to quit playing D&D for several years. When Third Edition came out I was lured back by the promise of a clear set of core rules, and my purchases have wandered only very slightly from that core. Since then, I've become a big fan of core rules generally, and tend to ignore supplements for the most part. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Algolei Date : 10-19-03 03:57 AM Not me. I love supplements! Seriously! If I come into a whole lotta money, I'll be buying into all the supplement-heavy games: Hackmaster, GURPS,...um...uh.... What else is there? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 10-19-03 02:08 PM All of the Palladium games (Rifts comes to mind). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Dogbreath Date : 10-19-03 03:34 PM Having just gotten back into AD&D, I never heard of Hackmaster until reading the posts. I have to admit, it was humorous to see the Players Handbook copied that way with more gore and goof. Kinda funny for a second, but as pointed out already holy cow a TON of manuals for the monsters! That's the kinda stuff that got me out of AD&D once the second edition and it's successors came out. Wanted to mention, you say they are expensive to buy all of them, maybe you can pick them off on ebay? Seemed to be a lot of 'em posted on there. If you bought a few at a time you might pick off the majority for a little less $$ if you have the patience to do it right. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : adam_adamant Date : 10-19-03 05:58 PM Thread Title : For the cash poor Don't forget that your basic 1st and 2nd ed kit is still usable in Hackmaster They've published a lot of stuff mostly because they've a deranged and dedicated bunch of fans working on it so a lot f the stuff is affectionate digs at long lost classics The Kenzer boards have made much discussion of the Monster Manuals (which are nice but not cheap) and there is a "Best of" monsters due out (may be out by now) to be a 1 or 2 volume set with the main monsers from the scenarios in there (giants dragons etc) In a very real sense Hackmaster is the logical follow on from AD&D 2 rather than the leap into D20 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-19-03 11:29 PM Thread Title : Hackmaster ? I seem to have heard a lot recently about Hackmaster. The kenzerco web site doesn't really say that much about what the game is other than it's a derivative of 1st ed AD&D. Could anyone give me a summary of the differences between 1st ed and Hackmaster? Hackmaster rules are bassed sort of between First & Second edt. But you could just run it as a straight First edt and drop the proficiences like most people have. The major differences between the two are that is better written and give you the DM lots of possible options. It also has a sick dry secne of humour running though the entire book, some may not like. I would say if you played First edt then its like that with the skills and powers supplement thrown in for good measure. What do I need to play? As a player just the Players hand book. As a DM the Players Hand book, GM Guide & Hacklopedia of Beasts: Field Manual What about the other stuff? There is a lot of supplements out for both players & GM but I wouldn't pick up anything until you have played for a few months. What about the Modules? Most of the modules are copies of the originals with a small bit of mods and tiding up, they are the best thing about the Hackmaster, and there is nothing stopping you from just purchasing the Modules by them selves. Deals? Its a good idea to check in with your gaming store as they may do pack deals or offer discounts. Cheers -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-19-03 11:47 PM Thread Title : Hackmaster Products And, to judge by my local gaming store, it's very expensive. Just how many "monster manuals" are there? One-Hacklopedia of Beasts: Field Manual The others are over kill and you really don't need them-you could even use a First edt Monster Man if you wanted. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-19-03 11:56 PM Thread Title : I Wanted to try but....it was all to much? I wanted to try hackmaster. unfortunatly, kenzerco also parodied the older editions need for more supplements. there's a whole slew of them. This is a very common thing-and stops people from having a go, it would be nice if Kenzer came up with a Fast Play Basic Set that people could try. Do you need the supplements? NO Can I Mix & Match my First edt? YES Can I just get the Modules? YES Check out the 2nd hand gaming stores and you might be lucky- I scored 2 players hand books for half price. Character Record Books-buy I copy the rest. Game master Campaign Record-buy 1 copy the rest. Cheers :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Solaris Date : 10-20-03 12:51 AM Thread Title : Re: I Wanted to try but....it was all to much? A word of advice, SiHacker22: Try quoting posts, instead of just posting replies. There's a quote button at the bottom-right of each post; it will start a reply and include the content of the post you're replying to, with an attribution, like so: Originally posted by SiHacker22 This is a very common thing-and stops people from having a go, it would be nice if Kenzer came up with a Fast Play Basic Set that people could try. You can then edit the included content, deleting parts you don't want, interspersing your own comments, etc. When you do it, you'll see QUOTE, I, and B tags inside of square brackets. They create a block quote, italic text, and boldface text, respectively. Note that each tag has starting and ending forms, and the effects apply to everything in between. So if you wish to interject within a quote, you must end the boldface text, end the quote, say your piece, start the quote again, and start the boldface again. (it's not as hard as it may sound) It will make your replies much easier to read, because the way you're doing it there's nothing to distinguish your words from those of the person to whom you're replying. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Algolei Date : 10-20-03 01:58 AM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie All of the Palladium games (Rifts comes to mind). *Drool* More stuff! I bought my nephew KenzerCo's version of Keep on the Borderland and he ran us through, um...a combination of the two. (I couldn't really tell which was which, frankly.) My point is, um...that you CAN play Hackmaster modules with 1E/2E rulebooks. Duh, I think. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-20-03 02:37 AM Thread Title : Learner on Board Thants for the Quote info Cheers Simon -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Geriatric Wizard Date : 10-20-03 03:32 AM Everyone, Thanks for the info. GW -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 10-20-03 03:45 AM Originally posted by SputnikCorp i wanted to try hackmaster. unfortunatly, kenzerco also parodied the older editions need for more supplements. there's a whole slew of them. sorry kenzerco, no sale here. How's that? There are 3 supplements. One for priests, one for warriors, and one for thieves/bards. That's it. Compare that to 3e stuff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-20-03 07:08 PM Thread Title : Has anybody Played in or DM Hackmaster? I was interested in how many folks actually have tested or played in or DM a Hackmaster Game? I am interested to know how it went or didn't? Cheers -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : theDwarf Date : 10-21-03 12:56 AM Originally posted by Algolei And, to judge by my local gaming store, it's very expensive. Just how many "monster manuals" are there? If you have an AD&D Monster Manual then the number of Hacklopedias needed to play the game ... 0 additional (just remember the 20 hp kicker). Hackmaster mixes very well with AD&D. (It is AD&D with "crunchy bits") Check out the Hacklopedia Field Manual and/or the Hacklopedia that covers your favorite monster type to get some additional "crunchy bits" (Dragons are in HoB 3, Demons and Devils are called Nefarians in Hob 5, etc). If you already have AD&D monster books, then pick up the HackMaster Monster Matrix for the supplimental monster information like more encounter charts, monster crit chart, unarmed fumble table, edibility chart, and so forth. Some people recoomend it higher than even the Field Manual. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : theDwarf Date : 10-21-03 01:18 AM Thread Title : Re: Hackmaster Originally posted by Geriatric Wizard I seem to have heard a lot recently about Hackmaster. The kenzerco web site doesn't really say that much about what the game is other than it's a derivative of 1st ed AD&D. Could anyone give me a summary of the differences between 1st ed and Hackmaster? Thanks GW By 1e I will assume for now that you are including the Unearthed Arcana though the Survival Guides. Major Changes: Crit Tables Additional classes 20hp kicker (so a familiar can not normally kill a 1st level magic-user in a single bite) Honor stat Enforcable alignment system (no more Paladins slaughtering whole towns with no penalty ;) ) Quirks and Flaws Revised and more comprehensive skill system Talents (to make characters more distinctive) Building Points Loads of additional trivial/flavor stuff like expanded drink/intoxication tables, etc) Dropped from AD&D 1st ed (PHB, GMG, UA, etc): Almost nothing if all the current books are included except castle creation rules (Castle construction rules are due out in the upcoming castle book). Some of the classes from UA were diverted to later cass books due to space considerations (the HackMaster PHB is 400 pages and all the books use smaller fonts than 1st ed AD&D conterparts ... and have more pages, more information, etc). Minimum needed run/play a HackMaster game if you already own 1e AD&D books: (GM) HackMaster GameMaster's Guide or GM's Shield (Note: it is possible to run sessions using just the shield or HM GMG if you have AD&D PHB and Monster Manual, but you need to remember the 20hp kicker for both monsters and PCs. Players will miss out on a lot of the fun invovled in making a character if you do not have a HM PHB, but it is possible) Highly recommended to run: (Player) HackMaster Player's Handbook (GM)HM GMG Monster Matrix and possibly the Field Manual Hope that helps! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : theDwarf Date : 10-21-03 01:57 AM Originally posted by JRRNeiklot How's that? There are 3 supplements. One for priests, one for warriors, and one for thieves/bards. That's it. Compare that to 3e stuff. You missed the magic-user's book, which obviously pushes things over :rolleyes: ;) Most people who believe the entry price is too high are looking at the Hacklopedia of Beasts series (8 books) or consider it to be too much for "just a joke" (see below for comment on it being "a joke"). Cost: The list of what you actually need to play HackMaster is very short: PHB, GMG, a monster book. That is it. You can play the game using only 3 books, and one of the books can be from AD&D! (just remember to add a 20hp kicker) That means $60.0 IFF you have an old AD&D Monster Manual laying around, half that or less if you are a player (if the GM is using an amalgamation of AD&D and HackMaster rules players may not even need to buy a HM PHB if they have An AD&D one or the Unearthed Arcana). This is almost to the penny the amount it took for me to get into 3e (3 $20.00 books), and I hear 3.5e is even more. HackMaster has more information crammed into it (smaller font sizes, larger page counts ... PHB 400, GMG 368). Continuing the comparison of HackMaster to 3e ... 4 $20.00 class books compared to 5 or 6 (Combatant's, Spellslinger's, Zealot's, Griftmaster's vs. Tome & Blood, Master's of the Wild, Song & Silence, Defenders of the Faith, Sword and Fist and possibly the Hero Builder's Guide). If you throw in the Monster Matrix and maybe the Field Manual Hackmaster's cost so far is about equal to 3e, but HM has a lot more information for the same price AND the information is directly portable to AD&D. Seirousness: Many do not realize it took "Game of the Year" at Origins 2002 or maybe what that means (aka, the game that took "RPG of the year was actually second place for that category and Hackmaster beat out all games that year that took top in their respective categories). It would not consider that a joke, nor should a game that includes humor be taken lightly. AD&D 1st edition contained humor (my personal favorite is the cartoon of the fighter in plate mail jumping into the arms of the magic-user when faced with a rust monster :D ). Support: HackMaster is fully supported by Kenzer & Company. AD&D is no longer officially supported by any company I know of, except in its most current incarnation called HackMaster. Modules are coming out, old worlds are being converted and presumably published, and so forth. Adaptability / compatability: HackMaster can be played as HackMaster or parts of it can be directly used in AD&D. Modules can be used in AD&D by removing the 20hp kicker from monsters. The list goes on ... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : theDwarf Date : 10-21-03 03:07 AM Originally posted by Algolei And, to judge by my local gaming store, it's very expensive. D&D Shadowrun Earth Dawn Deadlands Legend of the 5 rings Hero (Champions) 7th Sea GURPS Rifts/Palladium Rolemaster AD&D (pick an edition) I own all of the games on that list. I have bought about the same number if not more books for each of them as I have for HackMaster. I can list about a dozen more that are/were rapidly on the way but I only picked up a player's book or so for because I didn't run them. For example, AD&D 1st edition: PHB, DMG, MM, D&DG, UA, OA, FF, MM2, DSG, WSG 10 books not including modules (I own most published), campaign settings (3 ... WoG, FR, OA), etc. The thing to realize is that every game company has to publish more books just to survive these days than had to be done back in 1975-1985. In 1975 there was one company producing RPGs (TSR) publishing 1-2 RPGs (D&D and EPT, the later of which was a limited run) and a couple of independants started making modules, campaign worlds, and supplimental rules for D&D. 1978-81 some other companies were publishing games, but TSR was still the big one. The four books (PHB, DMG, MM, Dieties & Demigods) plus World of Greyhawk and modules (mostly "the classics, IIRC) were enough to keep a growing company afloat in an era of limited competition. Book prices averaged about $12, except the DMG, $20, and boxed sets). D&D also branched out into the D&D Basic set almost similtaneous with the release of AD&D. IIRC 1982-1986 saw the release of UA, OA, DSG, WSG, the WoG boxed set, Forgotten Realms boxed set, Oriental Adventures campaign setting, and scores of modules. Something was already starting to change, but TSR still dominated the market. Book prices averaged about $15 and, IIRC, modules averaged about $6. I think this was the era of the "mega-module ... aka, re-releasing the "old classics" revamped, expanded, or at least gathered together. D&D basic set, etc, were also expanded during this era which saw the release of most of the D&D boxed sets and modules (I would have to recheck dates to be sure ... I think Immortals came out before 1990, but I am not possitive). Unearthed Arcana tops a best-seller list at B Dalton IIRC (probably fantasy) and may have been the pinnacle of market saturation/sales until 3e. A bunch of the companies who were to become major players make a showing at this time (I remember Paranoia from WEG came out in 1984 or 1985) and are starting to compete with AD&D, although D&D and AD&D are still the enty game for most of the new gamers The late '80s saw the initial release of AD&D 2nd edition. To me it is obvious that market share had slipped. Many books come out for AD&D. D&D makes a showing with the Gazeteer series and D&D Cyclopedia. TSR starts into the paperback book business (science fiction/fantasy books are a growing market) either here, or just previously with the Greyhawk books. Forgotten Realms becomes the default setting. In the 90's things get even more complicated with many "new" settings being based in Forgotten Realms (OA becomes Kara Tur, Al Qadim comes out, both as boxed sets, and numerous book-settings follow as well). More worlds are added/expanded as boxed sets and modules (Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, Birthright, and even Mystara (from D&D basic set, et al)). Average book prices are $20. Welcome to a foreshadowing of today's market as other companies are now major players (White Wolf, FASA, Steve Jackson Games, WEG, etc). Most other companies are not longer putting out core rules, a setting, and modules ... the money is now moving to core rules +suppliments. Examples include Shadowrun, Champions, Ars Magica, World of Darkness ((White Wolf) and GURPS. I start running into people who prefer games other than D&D, although most, but not all, gamers I meet played D&D/AD&D first before moving on to other games, but about 50%+ of the people I know have moved on by 1990, more yet by 1995, and after that I start running into people who have never played D&D! Today average page count books are about $30, with some hitting $50+ for a single book. Average game buy-in is over $100 if you buy more than just the player's book and can quickly go to over $300 (10+ books [player, gamemaster, 4-12 player suppliment books and 1-6 gamemaster suppliments] is not uncommon, and at about $30 for the first 2-3 and around $20 for the rest). Production on these levels are necessary for mere survival in today's market due to fragmented market share. Standards include re-releasing the system every 3-8 years to get sales on core rules, etc (some games are actually up to 5th edition already). IIRC Games Workshop and WoTC are the top dogs in the game market. Following behind them are the other "big guys" (Wiz Kids, White Wolf, Steve Jackson Games, and so forth). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Algolei Date : 10-21-03 06:45 AM Thanks for the info! I seriously thought you needed the monster books (the way you needed all the Monster Manual expansions for your 2E folder). I like crunchy rulies. The Hackmaster armour system (what I've heard of it) interests me greatly. How well does it play? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : diaglo Date : 10-21-03 08:00 AM the only must have in my book is the GM screen. it is a piece of work. and well worth the $. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : SiHacker22 Date : 10-23-03 01:29 AM Thread Title : Hackmaster Armour Thing The simple explanation is that both armour & shields get hit points and can soak up a certin amount of damage. So they have to be replaced. This adds a spanner to the works and many players might not like it. There also aptions for levels of workmanship accross the board, and that armour is brocken down into sections and bits. Plus all the bits about grevious wounds and the like it can get a little over the top if your not careful-bet thing would be to start form first edt and work out what you want to add in from the Hackmaster rules and go with that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Algolei Date : 10-23-03 03:40 AM Sounds like the things I've been working on for my D&D game. (Or was working on. Guess I haven't really done much about armour in the last four months or so.) I must see these Hackmaster rules. Are they all in one book, or do I need to buy both player's and gm's books? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : papakee Date : 10-23-03 10:49 AM I like crunchy rulies. The Hackmaster armour system (what I've heard of it) It hurts to be a fighter type. The armor repair skills are very expensive in BP for a character and very expensive to have done by a professional. Its nice to save a hit point now and then, but sometimes I'd just rather take the extra hp in damage. Lower cost armor is actually cheaper to replace than repair. Also, you'll have folks taking an extra set of armor (and several sets of clothes - they have 1 Armor HP) to put on after ones armor has been kerplunked. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : theDwarf Date : 10-25-03 12:50 PM Originally posted by Algolei Sounds like the things I've been working on for my D&D game. (Or was working on. Guess I haven't really done much about armour in the last four months or so.) I must see these Hackmaster rules. Are they all in one book, or do I need to buy both player's and gm's books? Armor is in the HackMaster Player's Handbook. Rules for fixing armor, critical hits, and so forth are in the HackMaster GameMaster's Guide. Additional stuff about armor is in the Combatant's Guide including helmets, cost to manufacture all types of armor, more in depth repair information, as so forth. The GM's Shield has the tables (armor, hit point regression, weapons, and 26 more pages of tables including 4 pages of crit tables) but no text explanation. Therefore, if you are interested primarily in how armor points are done, etc, pick up the PHB or the Combatant's Guide and GameMaster's Shield. The PHB contains the tables plus explanation on how it works, but no repair rules. The GameMaster Shield and Combatant's Guide combo costs $10 more, but gets you all the tables, repair rules, and construction time/rules. In either case feel free to go to the Kenzer & Company boards to ask questions if you have any specific ones. Remeber that the GMG has more information on crits and the "behind the screen" mechanics, so the shield will be somewhat confusing without it, but that is what home rules are for. ;) (My brothers and I played Risk for years without a rules set :D ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Algolei Date : 10-26-03 02:20 AM Nobody plays Risk properly anyway. ;) GameMaster Shield and Combatant's Guide combo costs $10 more, but gets you all the tables, repair rules, and construction time/rules. But does the PHB come with the tables? I think someone I know has the GameMaster's Shield and who's willing to trade it for my 3E D&D DM's screen. If can find him. (He's small and slips behind things a lot.) I think I'd be best off starting with the Player's Handbook. Uh, maybe. Right? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 10-26-03 01:57 PM Do it. Now. Before he sobers up. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : theDwarf Date : 10-28-03 12:04 AM PHB + Shield works well :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Algolei Date : 10-28-03 03:58 AM Thanks. D'oh! I was playing with the guy today, but I forgot! I'm so stupid.... I'll probably see him again next week. Got him hooked on a new 3E adventure I started DMing today--A Wizard's Amulet, the free downloadable adventure lead-in to Necromancer Game's Crucible of Freya. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 10-28-03 10:45 AM I'm not a big 3e fan, but I heartily reccomend all Necromancer Games products. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : Hiryu Date : 11-02-03 12:33 AM Personally, I find Hackmaster to be a munchkinized version of AD&D. Yes, they seems similar at first, and all the products of HM and AD&D are compatible with eachother, however, HM dumps most AD&D rules and introduces a whole lot of new ones, some good and some bad. For instance, the 20 HP kicker is an amazing idea, altho personally I think it's a litle high–in my campaigns I award race-based kicker HP, with the human average being 10 and rarely going under 8 (gnomes get 6) or over 12 (minotaurs get 14). Monsters and 0 Lvl characters do not get kicker HP. The awarded HP is actually the average HP of the appropiate race, and characters gaign their first class HD when they stop being 0 Lvl chars and move on to 1st Lvl. Another great idea introduced in Hackmaster are the armor hit points. Personally I think it needs a bit of tweaking to work out properly, but it can still be great right out of the box. Similarily, the honor system is perhaps the best idea in HM. Sadly enough, it's poorly executed and it's highly cumbersome, rules-wise. Added to that, it WILL be confusing to novice players and it is very hard to keep in check. From the really bad stuff are highly unballanced new classes, specially the uber nerdish HackMaster classes. The skills system is very poor as well, albeit, a good idea. Also, the annoying level up restrictions–must have a certain ammount of honor, pay for a 'university' to get classes, etc.–are extremely out there, and will frustrate most players. Specially since HM is such a generous game when it comes to XP (you even get XP by stealing treassure while not a thief, etc.) The worst part, however, are all the character creation rules. If you are a hardcore 1st ed player, go right ahead, but if you need more creative freedom for your character, HM is not the game for you. I hate, and with a passion, to roll for all of my character's characteristics, such as height, weight, hair color, family, social class and what not let alone rolling his quirks and traits, like HM -requires- you to do. I believe that a system's rules speaks for the flavor of the game. The problem with HM is that the rules reflect more an annoying parody game than an actual role-playing experience with pointless stuff just for the sake of silliness–like 'getting wasted', fumbles and sidekick rules. Furthermore, all through the Hackmaster PHB you are reading about a game that is all about dice rolling instead of role-playing. It even includes a whole section to giving your dice 'lucky rubs'. By the way, to all that people that meassure HM's worth by the number of pages in the book, half of it are apendixes for spells, proficiencies, skills and worthless junk like dice rubs and dice ettiquette. The other half is just like AD&D's 2ed PHB, but with many rules cut out and many other introduced, and has a rather unhealthy share of junk material, such as anti-critics disclaimers in the middle of a chapter, overexplanations of many game aspects, and stupid rules for things that should be left to the imagination of the DM and the players, thus, making HM a game that actually hampers role-playing. All in all, my personal opinion is that HM has only a couple (literally) of good ideas and the rest can be dumped in the trash. The good news is that this ideas can be easily introduced into an ongoing AD&D game, the bad news is that most of them are poorly integrated into the game, and you will be better off with making your own house rules–or downloading the Hackmaster books from Kazzaa Lite or eDonkey, check out what rules you want, delete the files and forget you ever came in contact with Hackmaster. It's just not worth the money, IMHO. I would rather spend that cash on hunting down vintage AD&D books in Amazon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 11-02-03 02:27 AM Originally posted by Hiryu Personally, I find Hackmaster to be a munchkinized version of AD&D. Yes, they seems similar at first, and all the products of HM and AD&D are compatible with eachother, however, HM dumps most AD&D rules and introduces a whole lot of new ones, some good and some bad. For instance, the 20 HP kicker is an amazing idea, altho personally I think it's a litle high–in my campaigns I award race-based kicker HP, with the human average being 10 and rarely going under 8 (gnomes get 6) or over 12 (minotaurs get 14). Monsters and 0 Lvl characters do not get kicker HP. The awarded HP is actually the average HP of the appropiate race, and characters gaign their first class HD when they stop being 0 Lvl chars and move on to 1st Lvl. I dumped the kicker altogether. ][/QUOTE] Another great idea introduced in Hackmaster are the armor hit points. Personally I think it needs a bit of tweaking to work out properly, but it can still be great right out of the box.][/QUOTE] The armor rules are a good idea, but implementing them is a *****. Unless you want players carrying bags of armor around, can this. ][/QUOTE] Similarily, the honor system is perhaps the best idea in HM. Sadly enough, it's poorly executed and it's highly cumbersome, rules-wise. Added to that, it WILL be confusing to novice players and it is very hard to keep in check. ][/QUOTE] Honor is pretty cool, but easy to disregard if you don't like it. ][/QUOTE] From the really bad stuff are highly unballanced new classes, specially the uber nerdish HackMaster classes. The skills system is very poor as well, albeit, a good idea.][/QUOTE] Grrrr. There you go with the 3.$ idea that the classes have to be balanced. Why? I play a ranger, or a fighter, or a cleric, or whatever because that's what I want to play, not because it somehow gives me an edge over the other characters. Besides, if you think the classes are unbalanced, try a 3.$ half dragon/ half elemental ranger/fighter/monk/wizard/incantatrix/archmage. That, my friend, is munchkin - and it doesn't even PRETEND to be a parody. ][/QUOTE] Also, the annoying level up restrictions–must have a certain ammount of honor, pay for a 'university' to get classes, etc.–are extremely out there, and will frustrate most players. Specially since HM is such a generous game when it comes to XP (you even get XP by stealing treassure while not a thief, etc.)][/QUOTE] Don't like it, don't use it. I don't. But non-thieves don't get xp for stealing. Everyone gets exp for treasure just like they did in 1e. ][/QUOTE] The worst part, however, are all the character creation rules. If you are a hardcore 1st ed player, go right ahead, but if you need more creative freedom for your character, HM is not the game for you. I hate, and with a passion, to roll for all of my character's characteristics, such as height, weight, hair color, family, social class and what not let alone rolling his quirks and traits, like HM requires you to do.][/QUOTE] No freedom? I can play whatever class I want. If my initial rolls are low, I can bump my stats with building points. You get plenty of those without ever rolling for quirks and flaws. Quirks and flaws encourage roll playing. An albino character or a character with a trick knee is a BLAST to play. It's fun to have a weakness, but no playervoluntarily takes those without a reward of some kind. I b][/QUOTE] elieve that a system's rules speaks for the flavor of the game. The problem with HM is that the rules reflect more an annoying parody game than an actual role-playing experience with pointless stuff just for the sake of silliness–like 'getting wasted', fumbles and sidekick rules.][/QUOTE] Sidekick rules have been in EVERY incarnation of D&D - from 1st edition to 3.$, to Hackmaster. ][/QUOTE] Furthermore, all through the Hackmaster PHB you are reading about a game that is all about dice rolling instead of role-playing. It even includes a whole section to giving your dice 'lucky rubs'.][/QUOTE] Hackmaster promotes role playing more than ANY other game. Players go to the tavern and tell tales about their exploits, honor makes them role play instead of hacking every single guard. B][/QUOTE] y the way, to all that people that meassure HM's worth by the number of pages in the book, half of it are apendixes for spells, proficiencies, skills and worthless junk like dice rubs and dice ettiquette.][/QUOTE] It's not worthless, but even if you think it is, you get WAY more content than any other game for the same price. Suppose you only use half the book. It's still more content than any other game. ][/QUOTE] The other half is just like AD&D's 2ed PHB, but with many rules cut out and many other introduced, and has a rather unhealthy share of junk material, such as anti-critics disclaimers in the middle of a chapter, overexplanations of many game aspects, and stupid rules for things that should be left to the imagination of the DM and the players, thus, making HM a game that actually hampers role-playing.][/QUOTE] Bull. All in all, my personal opinion is that HM has only a couple (literally) of good ideas and the rest can be dumped in the trash. The good news is that this ideas can be easily introduced into an ongoing AD&D game, the bad news is that most of them are poorly integrated into the game, and you will be better off with making your own house rules–or downloading the Hackmaster books from Kazzaa Lite or eDonkey, check out what rules you want, delete the files and forget you ever came in contact with Hackmaster. It's just not worth the money, IMHO. I would rather spend that cash on hunting down vintage AD&D books in Amazon. [/QUOTE] Your loss. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : theDwarf Date : 11-02-03 04:43 AM Originally posted by Hiryu Yes, they seems similar at first, and all the products of HM and AD&D are compatible with eachother, however, HM dumps most AD&D rules and introduces a whole lot of new ones, some good and some bad. {/quote] :confused: I have no idea what "most of AD&D rules" you are refering to. Saying "AD&D" covers a wide variety of rules sets (1e, 1e + UA, "1.5e" [OA, DSG, WSG], 2e, 2e w. "Complete ... Handbooks", "2.5e" [skills and powers, etc]). To the best of my knowledge HackMaster contains all the rules common to these versions, some rules found in some versions but not others, and additional rules created by the people at Kenzer & Company, some of which you touched on but others you didn't (penetrating dice, critical hits and fumbles, etc). [quote]For instance, the 20 HP kicker is an amazing idea, altho personally I think it's a litle high– The kicker makes it a lot harder for a normal house cat, rat, or other such creature, to kill a low-level magic-user, 0-level character, or so on, in a single hit. (Have you ever tried to play a M-U with 1hp? Even 4hp is not much better :P ). The "balance" to the 20hp kicker is penetrating damage dice (max on a die, roll again and add at -1; max again, roll again and add at -1 non-cumulative) and critical hits (cleverly weighted so that lightly armored foes get hit worse and more powerful beings hit harder. Another great idea introduced in Hackmaster are the armor hit points. Personally I think it needs a bit of tweaking to work out properly, but it can still be great right out of the box. No arguments from me there. personally I think multiplying all the armor hit points by a factor of 5 (2 for torso, 1 for arms, 1 for legs, 1 for head) makes it better, maybe even more. I have been tinkering with an alternate armor point system for my Unsanctioned game. Also, the annoying level up restrictions–must have a certain ammount of honor, The amount of honor is not a requirement, just highly recommended :D Being "in the window" has a beneficial effect. Too low has a negative effect. pay for a 'university' to get classes, etc.–are extremely out there, and will frustrate most players. Specially since HM is such a generous game when it comes to XP (you even get XP by stealing treassure while not a thief, etc.) Again, a recommendation and not a requirement. A character can "self-train, but to do so must earn double the xp which are subsequently lost. This can be used to a character's advantage. Also, not all schools are "universities". Historically there were fencing schools of different renown and quality where "fighters" went to train between "adventures", "clerics" spent may hours in study or on sabbatical, and thieves practiced their crafts as well. To automatically get better "for no good reason" feels more foreign to me now than HackMaster's training rules. Training rules existed in AD&D. They have just been made more obvious and better defined in Hackmaster. let alone rolling his quirks and traits, like HM -requires- you to do. For those not in the know, "-requires-" has the "-"s around it because quirks and flaws are not actually required. They do add to the number of Building Points you get, and these points are used to buy up stats, buy skills and talents, and can even be used to reroll undesired results. The net result is that a character without quirks and flaws may seem a tad less powerful than one with them (lower average stats, fewer skills, only 1-2 talents, etc), but good GMing and role-playing can more than balance out any differences. I have seen more than one character without any quirks or flaws played to a respectable level (the highest level character in at least two games I am in). As for being "forced" to roll for everything, that would be for "by the book" or sanctioned games as not one is going to come to your house if you don't use all the rules exactly as written. I remember rules on random starting height and weight in AD&D, and I know some GMs who had house rules for random determination of things that make HackMaster's tables and charts pale in comparison by volume and specifics. What one likes or dislikes personnally is another story. I believe that a system's rules speaks for the flavor of the game. The problem with HM is that the rules reflect more an annoying parody game than an actual role-playing experience with pointless stuff just for the sake of silliness–like 'getting wasted', fumbles and sidekick rules. I believe that a system's rules speak for the flavor of the game as well. AD&D 1e had humor in it (from fighter in plate mail jumping into the M-U's arms because they encountered a rust monster to the way the rules are worded). In my opinion HackMaster captures the flavor of AD&D 1e. Period. I do not consider AD&D to be a parody, therefore IMHO HackMaster is not a parody either. It is a serious game, but at the same time it does not take itself too seroiusly. Furthermore, all through the Hackmaster PHB you are reading about a game that is all about dice rolling instead of role-playing. It even includes a whole section to giving your dice 'lucky rubs'. QED By the way, to all that people that meassure HM's worth by the number of pages in the book, half of it are apendixes for spells, proficiencies, skills and worthless junk like dice rubs and dice ettiquette. Um, if you remove the sections on spells, profiiencies, skills and "such worthless junk" from 2e or 3e you would be throwing out half the book as well. ;) –or downloading the Hackmaster books from Kazzaa Lite or eDonkey, check out what rules you want, delete the files and forget you ever came in contact with Hackmaster. I recommend borrowing a copy and reading through it, participating in a character generation session, or entering an introductory game or tournament at a convention if you don't feel like you want to buy it outright. Downloading copyrighted material is illegal and should never be recommended :sad: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.