* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Multi vs Dual-class. Started at 11-25-03 02:33 PM by Elereth Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=138099 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Elereth Date : 11-25-03 02:33 PM Thread Title : Multi vs Dual-class. I have a question for you guys on multi and dual classing. From what I understood, racial restrictions aside, the only advantage dual-classing really had over multi-classing is that you had to start off as a multi-classed character whereas you could dual-class any time you wanted. Recently, though, its come to my attention that nowhere in the text of the Player's Handbook or Skills and Powers does it say that you must start as a multi-class. Is this just a fluke, or can you really multi-class after you've gone up a few levels? If nothing else the programming I've received by many bioware games tends to make me believe it's the former. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : sandskimmer Date : 11-25-03 04:10 PM Um, only humans could dual-class, only demi-humans could multi-class. It didn't matter when you did either, it was strictly a racial thing. Although, it can be argued that multiclassing implies you start your characters off at 1st level, because multi-classing is advancing in multible classes simultaneaously. Therefore, if you were to start at 1st level in one class, then pick up another class later on, it could be argued that that is dual-classing and not multiclassing. That's entirely up for interpretation however. Personal opinion: this is one of the things that makes 3.0/3.5 superior to 2ed - anybody can multiclass at anytime - no confusion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Elereth Date : 11-25-03 05:17 PM Yes, I know that only demi-humans can multi-class, but the two still naturally come under comparison and that was one of the few advantages I thought dual-classing had. I have to ask, though, since you're only supposed to get half HP and CP (When working with the player's option system) for each class as you advance, how then would you deal with awarding of CP and HP as one levels, especially considering the very real possibility that both classes have different HD, making the dual-classing meathod impractical. While Dual classing already has rules written out for how to deal with HP and CP, Multi-classing after prior level advancement does not. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : sandskimmer Date : 11-25-03 05:56 PM While Dual classing already has rules written out for how to deal with HP and CP, Multi-classing after prior level advancement does not. One more arguement as to why you "must" multiclass at first level. I have to ask, though, since you're only supposed to get half HP and CP (When working with the player's option system) for each class as you advance, how then would you deal with awarding of CP and HP as one levels, especially considering the very real possibility that both classes have different HD, making the dual-classing meathod impractical. FOR MULTI-CLASISNG: If you go up a level as a thief (d6), then you get d6/2 hp. If, next level, you go up as a fighter (d10), then you get d10/2 hp. Always add half your con bonus, if applicable, just like it states on p.61 of the PHB. FOR DUAL-CLASSING: Once you switch classes, then you cannot go back to your previous class, as per p.62 of the PHB. Therefore, this is a non-issue for dual-classing, and is in no way impractical. You always just get the full HP for your current class. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Elereth Date : 11-25-03 06:09 PM I don't mean to annoy you, but the question of multi-class I was pondering over had more to do with awarding of HP and CP for the new class after advancement in the first class had already started. For example, if you have a 4th level half-elven mage who multis to fighter, what does the fighter half do for HP or CP for the first four levels? Not giving him the HP is impractical as, as a multi-class, he is entitled to half a fighters HD, which is greater than half a mage's HD. And then there's the issue of the character already having recieved four levels worth of CP. The whole thing is rather problematic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : sandskimmer Date : 11-25-03 06:25 PM Which is why I stated earlier, that you should multiclass at 1st level. That way things like this are avoided. Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for you. Hopefully someone else can come up with a solution. Good luck! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : NeutralNeutral Date : 11-25-03 07:39 PM In 1E and 2E you are multiclassed from level one or not at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Thailfi Date : 11-26-03 10:08 AM One disadvantage to dual classing that has not been brought up. In order to dual class you must have a 17 in the prime requisite score of the class you are switching to. You also must have (I think it is 15 or 16) in the prime requisite score of the class you are switching from. Hard to qualify for. You also receive no benefit from the previous class other than hit points until you surpass the old class in level. You get no hit points from your new class until you surpass the old class in level (something to think about if you are switching from magic-user). We made house rules to deal with dual classing that are less restrictive. We think it is stupid that a 9th level fighter that is proficient with a dagger suddenly forgets how to use it effectively when he switched to magic-user. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : DM Zoc Date : 11-26-03 11:03 AM We think it is stupid that a 9th level fighter that is proficient with a dagger suddenly forgets how to use it effectively when he switched to magic-user We have a similar rule, allowing dual-classed character to retain previous THAC0. However, the reason you're not supposed to retain it is because (assuming fighter going into wizard) the new class has a different mindset than the old; if you rely on your martial prowess to get you through your wizard levels, you're really not growing at all as a wizard. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : The WarOverlord Date : 11-26-03 12:07 PM I always preferred the Skill based system when ever it was allowed. In this event given enough time you character could do anything and you could even roll for a "natural" proficiency slot when your first try it. I like the fact that after saying "Mon Za" which triggers the sword to release a magic spell a few hundred timed that i can feel the "ether" flowing and begin to cast other spells cause I can cast magic after being constantly exposed to it. :D Throw Stars enough and you will have "Ninja Skills", and Swing a sword enough and you'll figure out interesting and more proficient ways to hold and swing the blade, etc. :D But when I started D&D I always preferred 1/2 elf Fighter/Cleric/Magic Users and Dwarf Fighter/Thief When I decided to try Dual Classing I liked Human Ranger/Magic User or Human Cleric/Thief I can stand to be 1 Class only...but it has to be the Classic Bard or 2nd addition Psionist :angel: Actually if I have to pick from the modern Selections I Prefer "Sorcerers" and like to concentrate on healing and thief skills in the proficiencies and pick up my weapon slots to the point of being able to wield a Halbard or double edged Weapons. (still have a habit of using magic as a "softener" before Mele) Oh, don't get me started on Levels or the side effects of switching profesions or item use limitations. I honestly didn't know there was supposed to be a "Cap" or a time to "retire" so I have 90th Level Calvaliers, 60th Level Mages, and 140 Level Fighters....all Human of course, that I was getting board with cause they could "wipe out the world" siglehandedly. :rolleyes: A magic sword is still a sword and swinging a sword is just grabing it, Lifting it up, then swinging it from left to right, right to left, down to up or up to down....for starters. I can do this in real life with my real swords, but I am hardly a fighter. Why should I not be able to do this just because I am a "Class" that "doesn't use swords" or there is unidentified magic in the sword? Likewise I picked up a bow once and found myself to be a "natural" and could place my shots easily and even could do the arrow in arrow trick. I can hit someone 5 feet away from me easier then 20 feet away from be so "point blank shot" is a load of crock...besides if someone is to close...back up :D I suck with hand guns from first trying them but I am a "crack shot" with a rifle from the first time I picked it up. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Hiryu Date : 11-26-03 03:54 PM Dwal classing was a good idea, intended to separate the flavor of humans and demihumans, however, I think, it's fundamentally flawed. Humans are notorious for their versatility and adaptation, so it makes more sense THEY are the ones who get to multiclass. On our games, we allow humans, demihumans and humanoids to option to multiclass, as well as dual classing. The way our house rules work is like so. Multiclassing All characters can multiclass, mixing up to 3 classes and earning levels on them at the same time. This clases must be all of diferent class groups. For instance, a character may not choose to multiclass as a Shaman/Priest, a Fighter/Barbarian, a Thief/Bard, a Specialist/Mage etc. When multiclassing, every character earns a penalty to their experience chart depending on how many classes they have. If the character is training two classes at the same time, they recieve a +10% penalty to they experience chart. If the character is training three classes at the same time, the penalty is +20%. For instance, a Fighter/Priest needs 10% more experience to earn a new level, while a Ranger/Mage/Thief would require 20% more. This is added to any racial experience modifiers. For example, a human (XP -10%) who has 3 classes growing at the same time has a total penalty of +10% (-10+20=10), and a drow (XP +20%) who has 2 classes being trained at the same time has a total penalty of +30% (20+10=30). Note that Paladins, Berserkers, Samurai, Monks, Swashbucklers and War Mages may not multiclass. Also, all class related penalties and restrictions are cumulative. Lastly, all HP and CP's gained thorugh the different classes are averaged. Dual-Classing Of course, it is perfectly valid that a character might change carrers at some point. A priest or a paladin may loose their faith, a wizard or a monk may loose intrest in their studies, a thief or a swashbuckler may decide to try another lifesityle, etc. When this happens, a character leaves all of their previous classes to try on a new one. This new class could or not be from the same class group as one of the former ones, but before taking it, the character must be trained by an acomplished practitioner of the intended class (lvl. 5+). The character retains all levels and abilities from his or her former classes, as well as any character points or proficiency slots earned. However, they might start loosing levels and skills as time goes by and the character earns levels in his new class. This depends on how many classes the character formerly had. If the character had only one class before, he or she looses one experience level on his former class for every 4 experience levels on his new class. For example, Rath is a 3rd level fighter, but decides he wishes to put down his sword and take up the books, so he begins training under the local wizard. As time progresses, he reaches 4th level as a mage, which makes him loose a level in his former class–fighter. Now Rath is a 4th level mage and a 3rd level fighter. If the character previously had two classes, he or she looses one experience level in one of those classes for every 2 levels of experience in the new class. The class where the level is lost is decided by the DM. For instance, Althea is a 4th level Fighter/Thief, but has a newfound faith on her gods and decides to become a Paladin. She starts her training at the nearest temple and before she notices, she is a 2nd level Paladin. At this point, she must loose one experience level in one class. The DM decides she will loose a level as a thief, since this is out of flavor with paladinhood. Now she is a 2nd level Paladin, a 4th level Fighter and a 3rd level thief. If the character had three classes before, he or she looses one experience level in one of those classes for every experience level in the new class. Again, the class where the level is lost is decided by the DM. For example, Drannark is a 3rd level Fighter/Priest/Mage, and he has now decided he has a passion for music and stealing along the way. He starts his training at the nearest music conservatorium to become a bard, and as soon as he graduates and becomes a 1st level bard, he looses one level in his ona of his previous classes. The DM decides that priesthood is not the most akin activity to bardhood, so Drannark looses one level as a priest. Now he is a 1st level bard, 3rd level Fighter and Mage and 2nd level Priest. If the character, for some reason, had four or more previous classes, he or she looses one experience level in all of the former classes. For instance, Drannark, from the example above, decides that being a bard is not really for him, so he now aims for being a Ranger. He finds a coven and starts training. As soon as he hits 1st level as a ranger, he will loose one level in all of is previous classes. If a class at 1st level looses yet another level, all knowledge, abilities and skills from that class are forgotten. Aditionally, a dual-classing character looses one weapon proficiency for every 2 levels on his new class, and a non-weapon proficiency for every 4 levels of the new class. Dual-Classing Level and Ability loss Classes Before ~ Levels Lost 1 ~ 1/4 New Levels 2 ~ 1/2 New Levels 3 ~ 1/New Level 4+ ~ 1 in all/New Level Skills Lost ~ Rate Weapon Proficiency ~ 1/2 Levels Nonweapon Proficiency ~ 1/4 Levels This loss entails all Hit Points, Spell Points, Thac0 improvements, Saving Throw improvements and special or granted abilities that experience level gave. This includes points for thief abilities. A character might choose to go back to any of his previous classes if he so desires, but only with the DM's permission. Note that all class related penalties and restrictions are cumulative, even if those classes are not beign trained anymore. Also, when a character dual-classes all of his previous experience points are removed, and only the level stats are kept. Hope this helps. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:20 AM.