* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Dragonlance: I retract my previous comments Started at 05-28-04 09:36 AM by RobertFisher Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248084 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : RobertFisher Date : 05-28-04 09:36 AM Thread Title : Dragonlance: I retract my previous comments Last night I came across my Dragonlance modules, & flipping through DL2, I found this: To run this module properly, you must think of it as a story, and try to motivate your players subtly to follow the right path. Wow. I didn't remember that. I retract my previous positive comments about the Dragonlance modules. I can't defend a module that contains this text, even if it may have had some good bits. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : OlafTheUnbathed Date : 05-28-04 10:02 AM I don't want to start a Dragnlance-bashing festival, but the series is justly criticized for being a railroad ride. There are some truly great ideas that can be mined out of the series, but as a point of style and preference, I find DL to be unenjoyable as written. YMM certainly V, more power to ya friends. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-28-04 10:35 AM Also, look for the line about how the DM has to fudge in order to keep all the major characters alive. I can't remember which one that first appeared in, maybe DL5. Toot-toot, chugga-chugga! R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : jeff Date : 05-28-04 11:18 AM I forget, was Dragonlance published by TSR or Amtrak? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Glorfinden Date : 05-28-04 02:20 PM I always thought DL1 was nicely done, though I can't remember off the top of my head if it contained a line similar to the above mentioned. The single most valuable Dragonlance accessory must be Dragonlance Adventures for 1e, I guess. Unfortunately, I don't have it anymore. Does anyone know if it gives similar advice? I'd for certain reconsider looking for it, if that is so.. @rogueattorney: DL5 is the one which details the gods and the characters and a bit of the setting. Are you sure it the 'fudge rule' was in that one? Glorfinden -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-28-04 02:25 PM Originally posted by Glorfinden DL5 is the one which details the gods and the characters and a bit of the setting. Are you sure it the 'fudge rule' was in that one? Nope. Not sure at all. I do, however, remember that it was in DL7 that the authors told the DM that it was O.K. for PC's to die now. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Glorfinden Date : 05-28-04 02:33 PM Originally posted by rogueattorney Nope. Not sure at all. I do, however, remember that it was in DL7 that the authors told the DM that it was O.K. for PC's to die now. R.A. ROFL! Yeah, I can remember reading something like that. Oh my, I never realized until now why I never wanted to play Dragonlance and sold all of it. :D It had a lot of good ideas, but ... Fizban as Deus ex machina ... letting the bad guys reappear when they died before their time, etc .... how did they ever get away with it? Please! Someone tell me that Dragonlance Adventures is as decent as I remind it!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-28-04 03:47 PM Dragonlance Adventures for 1e was probably the best DL product ever released up to and including all the expanded 3e material. It covered everything in major detail and didn't have any of that "must do" sort of thing. The only little hitch was that PCs were not allowed to advance beyond 18th level. But you could easily drop that if you wanted to. And you can get it on pdf at one of the few online stores around. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : beavis123 Date : 05-28-04 03:47 PM Thread Title : That's the problem I read the novels and enjoyed them. When you create a series of modules based on the stories, you have to decide to follow the books exactly or allow flexibility. They decided to follow the stories exactly, probably on the belief that without following the novels, you would lose the "feel" of the Dragonlance books experience. I never played the modules. Part of the fun of playing D&D is not knowing what is going to happen. Mystery, suspense, search of the unknown stuff. I am sure they meant well, unfortunatly it didn't work out to most gamers satisfaction. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : The White Sorcerer Date : 05-28-04 03:51 PM Thread Title : Re: That's the problem Originally posted by beavis123 When you create a series of modules based on the stories, you have to decide to follow the books exactly or allow flexibility. The novels were based on the modules, not the other way around. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : vader42xx Date : 05-28-04 04:46 PM Correct, the DL novels actually came from the original players running through the adventures (Hickman, etc). In fact, the original player of Raistlin was the one who gave him his raspy voice that the books loved to describe over and over again. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-28-04 06:03 PM I am one of those Dragonlance lovers...hence my opinion probably can be deduced. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 05-29-04 01:40 PM Originally posted by vader42xx Dragonlance Adventures for 1e was probably the best DL product ever released up to....And you can get it on pdf at one of the few online stores around. :) I looked on both svgames and RPG Now in the past (and just did another search on both) and have been ubable to find that pdf. Is there someplace else that carries it, or is it tucked away in some dark corner on one of those sites and I'm missing it? I'd love to grab this on .pdf, as I have all of the other 1e hardcovers in pdf format except DL Adventures. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-29-04 03:51 PM Not to defend the Dragonlance modules too much, but wasn't A1-4 the worst railroad ride of them all? If my memory serves me correctly, you pretty much decimate the group by the end of the third module. All I'm say is that it isn't like the DL series had a monopoly on this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-29-04 05:00 PM The tournament modules (A series, G series) required some railroading, DM fiat or a lot of creative manipulation in order to successfully transition between individual modules if you were trying to drop them into an existing campaign. However, they didn't have the kind of "this NPC must stay alive until module #10 in the series" or "The PCs can't die until module #5" that the DL series did. Individual modules in the A and G series are fairly free of railroading. The only glaring thing is that A4 MUST begin with the PCs being prisoners of the Slave Lords if you're going to use the module as written. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-29-04 09:08 PM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie The tournament modules (A series, G series) required some railroading, DM fiat or a lot of creative manipulation in order to successfully transition between individual modules if you were trying to drop them into an existing campaign. However, they didn't have the kind of "this NPC must stay alive until module #10 in the series" or "The PCs can't die until module #5" that the DL series did. Individual modules in the A and G series are fairly free of railroading. The only glaring thing is that A4 MUST begin with the PCs being prisoners of the Slave Lords if you're going to use the module as written. In my book, having an NPC living to a certain point is a little less of a railroad as, "Well, for this adventure, everyone in the group starts with none of your magic items, weapons, armor, or spells...", which of course is how A4 starts and most of the DMs that have ran the module as me as a player have usually ran the adventure. In fact, I was playing the module when the modules were sold individually so often by running module A4 the characters just started that way. In away, the end of A3 is the same way. After all, the characters take on a force that they have no chance of defeating. In some sense, this is railroading as well. However it may seem, I guess that my main point is that many of the old adventures required railroading, and DL (though may have taken it to a different level) was in line with many of the modules of the day. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : James McMurray Date : 05-29-04 09:15 PM I'm going to be running A1-4. I have read A3 or 4 in a while, but my party is used to facing forces they have no hope of defeating. Its generally at that point that they run, regroup, and figure out a way to destroy the opposition. For A4 I plan on having them paid to allow themselves to be captured so they can find the enemy base and decimate it.Since the party is all psychics, loss of gear won't hurt them as much as it normally would hurt other parties. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-29-04 09:32 PM Keep in mind that even the psychics (psionics I'm guessing) should not have any psionic powers as well at the beginning of the adventure. (the adventure A4 goes into describing that all that should be available to the party is their wits and their 5 senses ...) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-30-04 01:14 AM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas I guess that my main point is that many of the old adventures required railroading, and DL (though may have taken it to a different level) was in line with many of the modules of the day. I don't see how you can cite examples from two TOURNAMENT modules (i.e. not representative of NORMAL modules) and use them to paint all modules of that era with the same brush. The tournament modules were vastly different in design than the normal campaign play modules that were produced. And I guess you're free to disagree, but it seems to me that placing the PCs in an initial situation and allowing them to choose their own way out is a lot less of a railroad than giving the DM instructions that no matter what the PCs do, certain things either must or must not be allowed to happen. YMMV. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-30-04 01:17 AM "To run this module properly, you must think of it as a story, and try to motivate your players subtly to follow the right path." Note that it doesn't say they HAVE to follow the right path, just that you should try to get them to (a sensible recommendation if the DM doesn't want to rewrite later modules and events to account for different outcomes - such will always be a hazard with pre-written adventures of epic length). All DMs influence the direction their players take (this is an inescapable fact, as the DM controls all of the information given to the players), and because story-related events generally carry with them a certain weight of importance, many DMs specifically influence the direction their players will take despite themselves. This is not necessarily railroading, as the players may still ignore potential plot-hooks; however, many players will automatically be hooked either because it's the heroic thing to do or because they sense a direct path to experience. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 05-30-04 12:06 PM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie I don't see how you can cite examples from two TOURNAMENT modules (i.e. not representative of NORMAL modules) and use them to paint all modules of that era with the same brush. The tournament modules were vastly different in design than the normal campaign play modules that were produced. And I guess you're free to disagree, but it seems to me that placing the PCs in an initial situation and allowing them to choose their own way out is a lot less of a railroad than giving the DM instructions that no matter what the PCs do, certain things either must or must not be allowed to happen. YMMV. I can agree that YMMV. However, in my book, having an encounter that's a guarantee defeat for the party so that they can start off with nothing in the next module is a definite railroading tactic. Also, I noted that many of the original adventures use railroading tactic, not all of them. One of the main reasons why is that they were originally tournament modules and they had sequential encounters. If you think of it, even some of the non-tournamet modules require that the party takes a certain path. For example, if the party doesn't wish to go to the haunted house, then The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh can be a pretty boring in the manner that it is written. Really, the only module that comes to mind that doesn't really require railroading tactics is The Keep on the Borderlands. You basically can do anything from town and some of the best encounters are not in the main dungeon itself. Descent into the Depths of the Earth can be this way if you take advantage of the large scale map and make side encounters for that. In fact, that is one thing that I've always wanted to do for that adventure. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 05-30-04 04:10 PM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas Really, the only module that comes to mind that doesn't really require railroading tactics is The Keep on the Borderlands. OK. Whatever. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : rogueattorney Date : 06-01-04 11:56 AM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas Really, the only module that comes to mind that doesn't really require railroading tactics is The Keep on the Borderlands. If the party doesn't decide to investigate the Haunted House in U1 or go to the Tomb in S1, then the adventure doesn't happen. These modules simply present a set area for encounter - whether the party goes there or not is up to the DM and PC's. What happens once the party gets there is where the railroading does or doesn't take place. In that regard, most old-school modules (and by that I mean pre-1983) are not in any way railroading, with the one noted exception of A3/A4. ...and by the way, L1 and T1 both used near identical formats to B2 (homebase plus adventure area). R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-01-04 01:47 PM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas Keep in mind that even the psychics (psionics I'm guessing) should not have any psionic powers as well at the beginning of the adventure. (the adventure A4 goes into describing that all that should be available to the party is their wits and their 5 senses ...) Ah, I hadn't read that part (we're still on A1 so I haven't even read A3 or A4 yet. Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to do a bit of modification to keep the powers from becoming an issue. It'll certainly be a surprise to the party if they're captured and then stuck into an area where psionics don't work. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-01-04 01:53 PM Of the older modules I can remember, very few were actual railroads. Sure, they expect the party to go to a certain place, but you can't really write a completely open-ended adventure based around one or two sites. Even B2 expects the party to go to the Caves of Chaos, and its up to the players and the DM to decide on areason for them to want to go there. The adventures that are railroads IMO tend to be those that are based on a timeframe or were meant to rewrite a world. For instance, the Apocalypse Stone and the Vecna advcentures for Ravenloft. The future of the game world depends on the party doing certain things, and if those things don't happen, the DM has to rewrite major portions of world events. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-01-04 03:38 PM Originally posted by rogueattorney Also, look for the line about how the DM has to fudge in order to keep all the major characters alive. Yeah. That same section I quoted from DL2 goes on about that as well. To give them some credit, they suggest making prominent NPC die in ways in which bringing them back can be more easily rationalized. Originally posted by vader42xx Correct, the DL novels actually came from the original players running through the adventures (Hickman, etc). In fact, the original player of Raistlin was the one who gave him his raspy voice that the books loved to describe over and over again. :) Yeah. Now that you mention it, this was one of the reasons I bought the modules. After buying the modules, however, it seemed pretty clear that the order was story then modules then novels. (And I wouldn't be surprised if there was some overlap.) I was more interested when I thought it was a story of a campaign, not a campaign of a story. :) Originally posted by Tenzhi Note that it doesn't say they HAVE to follow the right path, just that you should try to get them to (a sensible recommendation if the DM doesn't want to rewrite later modules and events to account for different outcomes - such will always be a hazard with pre-written adventures of epic length). Really, though, its the encouragement to think of the game as a story that bothers me more than the railroading. I freely admit that I use a bit of railroading when I DM. The last thing I want to do as DM, however, is to think of the game as a story. I write backstories for the game. I love hearing & telling the stories that come out of the game. But I don't want to think of the game as a story & subtly nudge the PCs towards what I think are the "right" choices. Heck, I think the best moments in games I've DMed have happened when the PCs took a path I didn't think was "right" or didn't even foresee! I try to limit railroading to the introduction of new characters or--sometimes--the beginning of an adventure. The railroad is used for the setup, but the outcome should be open ended. Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas However, in my book, having an encounter that's a guarantee defeat for the party so that they can start off with nothing in the next module is a definite railroading tactic. OK, I've already admitted to relying on railroading at times. Plus, I haven't read the Slavers series. (Owned it, but never read it thoroughly. Played it once.) If I'd been writing A3, though, I wouldn't have thought twice about placing an encounter the PCs were likely to lose to set up for the next module. I would, however, have pointed out that if the PCs did survive they wouldn't be continuing on to A4. I'll stack the deck against the PCs, but if they manage to pull out a miraculous escape or victory, I won't nullify it in interests of the story. So, they miss the chance to experience A4. Or the chance to experience it as it was "meant" to be. Again, it's not the story arch or the railroading per se that bothers me with DL. If I were to run them again, I'd deal with the PCs taking an unexpected course or let them leave the modules altogether as I would with any series of modules. Actually encouraging DMs (who I might otherwise want to game with) to assume the "it's a story" mindset, that bothers me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Elendur Date : 06-01-04 03:52 PM I don't think there is anything inheriently wrong with 'tight storyline' ie railroading type adventures, as long as everyone knows what they are getting into. I've been in plenty of 'free form' adventures that were boring as hell. As for Dragonlance, its a big time railroad, but I'd venture that its even better as an adventure when all the players know the basic plot, having read the books. We had a blast back in the day playing the pre-gen (ie the novel) characters, even though we knew the basic gist many of the details of the module were unknown to us, so it still felt fresh and exciting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Elendur Date : 06-01-04 04:06 PM Coincidentally, I'm running A3 right now, and I plan I running A4. The players will lose at the end of A3, there's just no other way to get them into A4. However they won't just be knocked out with sleeping gas. The will get to face off against the slave lords, and they will have the chance to kill off as many of them as they can. The more lords they finish off, the easier it will be for them at the end of A4. I'm totally railroading them, but I'm also rewarding their play choices. They can surrender, negotiate with the slave lords, or full out attack. If they manage a 1 round K.O. on the Earth Dragon Priest, good for them(he's supposed to tp out on round 2). It just helps explain why them make a good sacrifice. My players also understand these are tournament modules, so they are fairly tolerant of these things(like how the key to solve the trap/puzzle is always in the room before). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-02-04 02:35 AM Sorry, Gandalf_Istari if it's not on either on of those sights I'm not quite sure where to direct you. I've never been a huge DL fan myself so I don't have the book in any form. I sold mine years ago. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Thailfi Date : 06-02-04 08:54 AM Someone forgot to tell my DM that character's can't die in Dragon Lance. We ran a combination of PCs and the NPCs from the story. Gilthanus died early in DL2 before being able to slow the enemy pursuit. Riverwind died in DL3 Goldmoon died in DL3 Caramon died in DL4 Tasselhoff died in DL9 One of my characters died in DL12 Tika died in DL12 Tanis died in DL12 Alhana died in the last one Raistlin was the only NPC to start the adventure that survived until the end. Everyone playing these modules enjoyed them immensely. You want some storybook modules that we hated. Try the Time of Troubles modules where all the NPCs have to live to become Gods. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-02-04 11:56 AM Originally posted by Thailfi Someone forgot to tell my DM that character's can't die in Dragon Lance. You see. This is what makes community & discussion great. All the discussion in this thread keeps making me think about how I could make these modules work for me. What could be so important about a PC or NPC that you couldn't provide a substitute for them. JMS managed to keep B5 on track when the actor playing his main character left after the 1st season. (Although, I personally favor the "just get another actor to play the same character" method, it was impressive to watch JMS roll with the punches.) But I still refuse to say anything good about the modules in public. :) Well, maybe DL1 as long as I don't find any of this "think of it as a story" stuff there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 06-02-04 02:47 PM Originally posted by vader42xx Sorry, Gandalf_Istari if it's not on either on of those sights I'm not quite sure where to direct you. I've never been a huge DL fan myself so I don't have the book in any form. I sold mine years ago. :) Ahhh tis a shame. I'd hoped that since you said it was available for download you knew from where, since I have been unable to find it. Not that I'm a mega fan of DL, but I'd like to round out my pdf collection of 1e hard covers. I wish svgames would get off their bums and release more pdf's. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : rogueattorney Date : 06-02-04 03:20 PM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari I wish svgames would get off their bums and release more pdf's. [/B] They can't. WotC told Bastion Press (the company doing the scanning of the old products) to stop making new ESD's. http://www.bastionpress.com/esd.htm I don't know if anyone has officially said why WotC stopped the program, but the rumor I've heard is that WotC was unhappy with the quality of the scans and the numerous customer complaints they received. From personal experience and from talking to other gamers I do know that a number of the ESD's are missing maps and other items of importance (Details can be found on the link above), although Bastion has tried to correct the problems. If quality control IS the reason the ESD program was halted, it would have been nice if WotC, Bastion, SVG and RPGnow could have instead put out the effort to supply the customers with quality products. Especially since the demand for said products is unquestionable. We all know that without alternatives, people who have no other way of getting OOP materials will employ "dubious" means to do so. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 06-02-04 03:32 PM In regards to the whole notion of "railroading", I'd have to say that generally it isn't a big deal, with the disclaimer that it shouldn't be used too frequently or in a manner that is completely gratuitous or capricious. What I mean is that there are many times that life has a way of bringing unlooked for and/or unwanted experiences into our lives that are beyond our control to affect or avoid. Now of course that does not mean that there aren't precautions and planning that can be made to avoid unwanted things to happen to us, but even the best laid plans can often go awry or have holes in them that lead to wildly unsuspected results. To me, in a campaign world that has a load of powerful creatures, NPC's, and capricious gods, this might well be even more prevalent than in the real world. Situations can should arise that the PC's are unable to escape from or achiveve victory in. Especially in a world where there are mythological gods raoming about and interfering with human and humanoid affairs, there should most likely be times that the PC's get in over their heads and are unable to extract themselves from the situations inwhich they find themselves. Poweful wizards can place a Geas spell on a character or group of characters, a god may decide to intervene in the affairs of the characters for some reason, the local baron arbitrarily declares the PC's outlaws for some reason, etc. These things and probably a million more instances could be named that would seem to railroad that characters while at the same time are perfectly legitimate for a fantast campaign settting. That being said however, I can certainly understand the opinion that the DL adventures went too far with this. Telling the DM to go to any means to keep certain characters or NPC's from dying, or stating that the characters must jump through certain hoops at certain times, is a bit much for my tastes. Forcing situations upon the players should be something that is used conservatively, not necessarily sprinlked liberally throughout a campaign. This if course depends on the setting. A campaign where the gods are very, very active in earthly affairs might well see such intervention relatively frequently. Greek mythology is loaded with instances inwhich the gods intervene in human affairs at their own whim, fow example. On the other hand, a campaign setting inwhich the gods are distant and relatively uninterested in earthly affairs would see less of this. A world that has nations ruled by powerful wizards would certainly have more instances of Geas being used than a world in which wizards are extremely rare or persecuted. A nation that has a developed legal system that gives people rights to a fair trial and/or legal representation is much less likely to allow the local baron to arbitrarily delcare a group of characters outlaws, while a dark ages campaign inwhich might makes right would have things like this happen all the time. In real life there are often situations that are beyond our control, influence, or choice. I don't see why this isn't a legitimate DMing tool, with the disclaimer that it should be used with caution and wisdom on the part of the DM and isn't abused. Furthermore, many players that I have DM'd, in fact most of the players I have DM'd, are looking for that "epic" adventure that scoops them up into the flow of historical events inwhich their characters exist. I'm not saying that most of the players don't want options and alternate paths within a campaign or adventure, quite the contrary. But what I am saying is that players, in my experience anyways, are usually interested in the "big picture" and actually want to become embroiled into events broader than simple dungeon romps. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-02-04 03:42 PM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Furthermore, many players that I have DM'd, in fact most of the players I have DM'd, are looking for that "epic" adventure that scoops them up into the flow of historical events inwhich their characters exist. I'm not saying that most of the players don't want options and alternate paths within a campaign or adventure, quite the contrary. But what I am saying is that players, in my experience anyways, are usually interested in the "big picture" and actually want to become embroiled into events broader than simple dungeon romps. That is my experience too. My players will sometimes run off on their own for a while, but they eventually start looking for the next "plot hook" from me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 06-02-04 06:59 PM There's a difference between supplying "plot hooks" and an "epic adventure that scoops them up into the flow of historical events". I've tried both ways many times and found that while the "epic" campaigns can be entertaining I tend to feel like I'm getting into too much (as RobertFisher so aptly puts it) storywriting instead of gameplaying. While I like reading LotR, the Dragonlance Chronicles and other epic "save the world or die trying" type adventures, I rarely find them enjoyable to run or play through. For D&D I'd rather be Conan or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, going from one exciting adventure to the next, never knowing what kind of trouble I'll have gotten myself into next week. Probably why the DL series holds so little appeal for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : Binky Farnsworth Date : 06-02-04 07:30 PM Thread Title : I'm with the stinky long-necked warthog/cow here. Railroading is actually very common in many 1E modules. Let's go through some shall we (and these strictly from my collection on hand) C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan: starts off with shipwrecked characters being chased into said shrine where a landslide then traps them in with a set time frame for escape before the foul air kills them. C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness: hmmm.... you're condemned prisoners of the Duchy of Urnst being offered a reprieve if you retrieve the Soul Gem. Nope. No coercion there. True, both of the above were tournament modules and in C2 it was assumed that the pregenerated characters would be used. so let's look outside the C(ompetition) series. I3-5 Desert of Desolation series: this much lauded series is a non-stop rail-a-thon. It begins with the characters (whoever they are, no pre-gens here) being exiled into the desert for a crime they may not have even done upon pain of death. Then for the series to continue the evil Efreeti HAS to be released and the characters HAVE to find the means to stop him. I6 Ravenloft and EX1 Dungeonland: both of these adventures start out with the adventurers getting trapped in a demi-plane which they cannot escape without completing the adventure. And if one wants to be really picky every adventure that has the characters start out somewhere other than where their last adventure ended contains some degree of railroading. "Whaddya mean we're in Hepmonaland? Why are we there? Who agreed to go there?" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-03-04 02:33 AM I have to second that point at least. If an adventure makes you start out at some designated place I won't even run it with my players using their normal PCs. If they want to roll up something just for that adventure that's one thing. I think a lot of 1E modules were based on the way GG used to play his original campaigns. He didn't run them like most of us do today (that's why even the 3e books list two different styles of play). He ran them (more often than not at least) more like a TV show where each episode didn't actually have to follow the last. Next week's session might see his PCs in a different place, time, etc. It would still be the same world, reality, and character but everything else was pretty much subject to change. I myself have never liked that style of play. I enjoy the "storyline progression" style of campaign so the above mentioned modules are out unless I feel I can work them into my current storyline with very little to no railroading. By the way, it's nice to see somebody else mention Conan and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser instead of some of the more modern works of fantasy literature. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : Algolei Date : 06-03-04 06:42 AM Eh? What's that? Hey, you little whippersnapper, Conan and Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser are modern fantasy whositwhatsits! Why I oughta.... If I get my hands on.... Wh.... Does anyone else smell toast? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : Yorlum Date : 06-03-04 08:19 AM Originally posted by Algolei Eh? What's that? Hey, you little whippersnapper, Conan and Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser are modern fantasy whositwhatsits! Why I oughta.... If I get my hands on.... Wh.... Does anyone else smell toast? Hey you kids! Get offa my lawn! Lieber Rocks! Howard too... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-03-04 08:31 AM Ok now, THAT was funny! :) Just for the record, I was saying how nice it is that I'm not the only old fool around here. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 06-03-04 09:50 AM Originally posted by rogueattorney They can't. WotC told Bastion Press (the company doing the scanning of the old products) to stop making new ESD's. http://www.bastionpress.com/esd.htm I don't know if anyone has officially said why WotC stopped the program, but the rumor I've heard is that WotC was unhappy with the quality of the scans and the numerous customer complaints they received. From personal experience and from talking to other gamers I do know that a number of the ESD's are missing maps and other items of importance (Details can be found on the link above), although Bastion has tried to correct the problems. If quality control IS the reason the ESD program was halted, it would have been nice if WotC, Bastion, SVG and RPGnow could have instead put out the effort to supply the customers with quality products. Especially since the demand for said products is unquestionable. We all know that without alternatives, people who have no other way of getting OOP materials will employ "dubious" means to do so. R.A. Ahh, I hadn't realized that a freeze had been put upon scans of OOP stuff. That really stinks. Thanks for the info and the link. Any idea when this freeze went into effect? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-03-04 05:05 PM I don't buy that at all. Everything I've ever picked up from rpgnow and svgames (and that's a lot of stuff recently) has been great quality and none of it was missing a thing. I think it's pretty clear why WotC stopped the program. Every time one of us picks up a 2e item on pdf for $5 that's $5 we're not spending on a current 3e item which puts money in WotC pockets. I realize that looks like sound business tactics on the surface but what it really does in the long run is keep me away from any and all products with the WotC name on it for fear that they might do something else that puts money before customer satisfaction. I'm only glad that 99% of things that you actually need to play 1e, 2e, and BD&D were scanned before such a halt was called. :D Edit: And sorry Gandalf_Istari, I wish I could help you out with the DL product. A guy I used to game with had a pdf of it so I just assumed he picked it up online. But perhaps he didn't do it the legal way? Oh well, I don't use any file sharing servers so I wouldn't know if those things were floating around there (or how the heck a private individual would make a pdf anyway...lol) so I can't comment on that myself. All I know is that it did exist on pdf from someplace. If it's not a legal place then I can't help I'm sorry to say. :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : rogueattorney Date : 06-03-04 05:40 PM Note: SVGames and RPGnow can still sell the scans that have been made. Bastion is just not producing new ones. So the products that haven't been scanned, like the original box set, the Moldvay and Cook sets, Wrath of the Immortals, and, apparently, the Dragonlance hardback, won't become available. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-03-04 05:57 PM vader42xx: I've gotten a few really bad scans, but most of them have been decent quality. Also, AFAIK WotC made money every time somebody bought a $5 pdf, because they still own the books, SVGames just licencsed the right to sell pdfs. Both companies made money every time someone bought a pdf. If I'm wrong and SVGames didn't pay WotC anything beyond a one time fee, I'm sure someone will come along and slap me down shortly. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : q'afuu Date : 06-03-04 07:09 PM Originally posted by James McMurray If I'm wrong and SVGames didn't pay WotC anything beyond a one time fee, I'm sure someone will come along and slap me down shortly. ;) If it was a one-time fee, it'd be a lot harder for WotC to undo the deal. Besides, that seems like a less than ideal business agreement for both parties concerned, so it's unlikely to begin with. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 06-04-04 01:01 AM Originally posted by rogueattorney Note: SVGames and RPGnow can still sell the scans that have been made. Bastion is just not producing new ones. So the products that haven't been scanned, like the original box set, the Moldvay and Cook sets, Wrath of the Immortals, and, apparently, the Dragonlance hardback, won't become available. R.A. Yes, fortunately there was a bunch of great OOP materials scanned and put up for sale before WotC made Bastion put a hold on any new scans. Thank goodness, as otherwise I would be out in the cold as far as OOP products go (my old Basic/1e/2e collection went poof in a fire about 8 years ago, and I don't have a ton of cash to ebay books in good condition right now). Hmmm, too bad us OOP folks couldn't get together and cast some Geas or charm spells or whatnot to get WotC to allow someone to get back to making pdf scans of the rest of the OOP material.... WotC_CEO_003: roles :dice: for a 2 on his save vs. enchantments... WotC_CEO_003 says, "Yes Gandalf, we will let someone make scans of the rest of the OOP stuff right away! Nice master...." :mage: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 06-04-04 01:22 AM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie There's a difference between supplying "plot hooks" and an "epic adventure that scoops them up into the flow of historical events". I've tried both ways many times and found that while the "epic" campaigns can be entertaining I tend to feel like I'm getting into too much (as RobertFisher so aptly puts it) storywriting instead of gameplaying. While I like reading LotR, the Dragonlance Chronicles and other epic "save the world or die trying" type adventures, I rarely find them enjoyable to run or play through. For D&D I'd rather be Conan or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, going from one exciting adventure to the next, never knowing what kind of trouble I'll have gotten myself into next week. Probably why the DL series holds so little appeal for me. I can certainly understand and appreciate that approach to D&D gaming, as those kinds of "lets just roam around and see what kind of trouble we can get in" campaigns have been particularly enjoyable for me as well. Just dungeon/wilderness romping, as either a player or as DMing the NPC's in such a dungeon/wilderness romp, has a certain appeal to it in comparison to always having to "save the world" or getting caught up in the general sweep of history in the campaign world. My problem as a DM, however, is that most of the players that I encounter are always meddling with the "big picture" :D They never seem satisfied with detached adventures that do not have an overarching story behind them or that aren't leading to some epic mythological or historical/political type story or conflict. This is just my experience when DMing, and I'm not saying its exclusively that but merely the norm rather than the exception. Maybe I've played with too many people who read LotR a billion times, heh. Anyways, as the different people I have played with over the years have seemed to have a marked tendency to poke around in the "big picture", I have had to come up with stories and adventures that cater to that mindset or otherwise I'm always unprepared for thier desire to play the heroes and save the world (or at least the local village) from some world-menacing baddie. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : Yorlum Date : 06-04-04 07:53 AM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari Yes, fortunately there was a bunch of great OOP materials scanned and put up for sale before WotC made Bastion put a hold on any new scans. Thank goodness, as otherwise I would be out in the cold as far as OOP products go (my old Basic/1e/2e collection went poof in a fire about 8 years ago, and I don't have a ton of cash to ebay books in good condition right now). Hmmm, too bad us OOP folks couldn't get together and cast some Geas or charm spells or whatnot to get WotC to allow someone to get back to making pdf scans of the rest of the OOP material.... WotC_CEO_003: roles :dice: for a 2 on his save vs. enchantments... WotC_CEO_003 says, "Yes Gandalf, we will let someone make scans of the rest of the OOP stuff right away! Nice master...." :mage: Don't stop there! Make 'em bring back 1st ed! Have a round-up of the classic-era authors and set 'em to work producing new materials for the old system! Heck, I'd like to get somebody to set down in writing what actually happened behind the scenes for the first 7-8 years of TSR's history. I've seen bits here and there [some of it contradictory], and it makes me wonder about the parts that haven't been glimpsed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : Serena DarkMyst Date : 06-04-04 08:55 AM I read this thread and tried very much to keep an open mind...because I am a DL fan/DM/player. I like the setting very much. So what I have come up with are just a couple points. First off, the whole think of the game as a story line...That was the kind of game they were going for when it was written. They wanted to create an epic story that you could play through, rather than the typical hack and slash, kill monster-steal its loot modules that were out there. That works for me...it just sets options out there for different kinds of games...and thats always a good thing...leaves everyone happy. Now for my next point....you want a setting that gave free reign to the DM to railroad players into anything? Ravenloft. Darklords could close the borders to their realms, trapping the PC's inside until their whims were meant...which translates to..."You players arent going anywhere till you do this, this , and this!" And the mists...dont get me started on the mists...Never was there ever such a ridiculously obvious railroading device....I think they came with the sounds of hammers upon spikes and the low thrum of "Swing Low....Sweet Chariot" "Whilst on your way to Waterdeep to banter with the spies you have placed in the corrupt lord's home you are surrounded by a thick billowy mist...when it clears you dont recognize your immediate surroundings. Now in front of you there is..." "Camptown ladies sing their song....Doo Dah...Doo Dah!" ~please ignore all inflammatory tones in this post ....Comedy Central has been feeding me Blazing Saddles lately ;) ~ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : Tenzhi Date : 06-04-04 09:19 AM Fafhrd? Conan? I prefer Karl Wagner's Kane, myself... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : Gandalf_Istari Date : 06-04-04 10:29 AM Originally posted by Yorlum Don't stop there! Make 'em bring back 1st ed! Have a round-up of the classic-era authors and set 'em to work producing new materials for the old system! Heh if only this was possible. I have a sense however that WotC is quite resistant to my REVERTtoOOPD&DNOW! spells.... Believe me I've been casting that spell for awhile now, but 3.xx is still on the shelves.... Heck, I'd like to get somebody to set down in writing what actually happened behind the scenes for the first 7-8 years of TSR's history. I've seen bits here and there [some of it contradictory], and it makes me wonder about the parts that haven't been glimpsed. I used to have a bunch of links about this in my favorites a few years ago, but they went the way of the Dodo after an OS reformat. If I still had the links I'd email them to you, but alas they are long gone. Poke around a bit though. The internet has a long memory.... :smirk: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : rogueattorney Date : 06-04-04 10:52 AM Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst Now for my next point....you want a setting that gave free reign to the DM to railroad players into anything? Ravenloft. One point - Dragonlance, Ravenloft, and the earlier mentioned Deserts of Desolation series, were all originally authored by Tracy Hickman, so the similarities are no coincidence. Where adventure designs by Gygax and Jaquays were the model for the late 70's and early 80's, Hickman's modules were the model for the late 80's and throughout the 90's. Essentially, the former model offered an entirely different product than the latter. The first provided a setting with a little history. The whys and wherefores of the PC's purpose was to be provided by the players and DM. The second offered a story for the PC's to complete. I would point out that the precipitous drop in new module sales that resulted in WotC discontinuing the production of modules, and the continuing popularity of "old school" modules - both the real deal and the recent immitators - would seem to indicate that the Gygax/Jaquays model might have more staying power. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-04-04 12:49 PM Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst I read this thread and tried very much to keep an open mind...because I am a DL fan/DM/player. I like the setting very much. FWIW, I should at this time like to clarify that none of the opinions I have expressed in this thread have concerned the setting. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 06-04-04 03:26 PM Originally posted by RobertFisher FWIW, I should at this time like to clarify that none of the opinions I have expressed in this thread have concerned the setting. ;) Exactly my sentiments. The DL campaign setting is actually quite good IMO and the adventures are excellent sources of information about the setting. Using them as actual playable adventures just isn't for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-04-04 07:04 PM Originally posted by rogueattorney I would point out that the precipitous drop in new module sales that resulted in WotC discontinuing the production of modules, and the continuing popularity of "old school" modules - both the real deal and the recent immitators - would seem to indicate that the Gygax/Jaquays model might have more staying power. This is true for me. Primarily its because if a module provides a setting and its inhabitants, I can find a way to mesh it into the ongoing story of my campaign. If it is an entire story on its own, not only do I have to find a reason and a place for the module, I also have to get my players interested in its backstory. However, my favorite module type of all is the epic campaign. By this I mean the large boxed sets like Return tot he Tomb of Horrors, Rod of Seven Parts, etc. Several newer modules such as Return tot he Temple of Elemental Evil and the Banewarrens also fit this mold. If a story-based module provides a complete campaign, I'll grab it and dive right in. Speaking of which: anyone know where a guy can find a copy of the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords for a decent price? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : Faraer Date : 06-04-04 08:13 PM There's an edge of hysteria to the voguish d20 use of 'railroading' as a term of condemnation. Character freedom doesn't have to be an absolute, and the fact that so many people have enjoyed the DL modules speaks for itself. Originally posted by Yorlum Don't stop there! Make 'em bring back 1st ed! Have a round-up of the classic-era authors and set 'em to work producing new materials for the old system!Well... (http://www.trolllord.com/zagyg.htm) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : q'afuu Date : 06-04-04 08:25 PM Originally posted by James McMurray Speaking of which: anyone know where a guy can find a copy of the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords for a decent price? SVGames has it as a .pdf, Noble Knight Games has the box for about $20 + shipping, iirc. Dunno what you consider a decent price... edit: a friend just told me Stiggybaby has it for less than $14 + shipping. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-04-04 10:22 PM Thanks! Who or what is "Stiggybaby" as that looks like the route I want to take. :-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : q'afuu Date : 06-04-04 10:25 PM The CoC doesn't allow linking to commercial sites. However, a simple Google search should give you the appropriate coordinates. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : James McMurray Date : 06-04-04 10:47 PM Thanks! So, anyone have any experiences with this? How "railroady" is it? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : Algolei Date : 06-05-04 05:10 AM Originally posted by vader42xx Ok now, THAT was funny! :) Just for the record, I was saying how nice it is that I'm not the only old fool around here. :D You're welcome. ;) Fritz Leiber is a magical name to me. While I didn't like the special rules for spellcasters in his official D&D Lankhmar setting, I do use his setting as a basis for my entire current campaign world. (Actually, I probably could get used to the special magic rules, but my players would go...uh, extraballistic. Ballisticker. Even more ballistic. They already wince frequently at my houserules for weapon damage--if you roll maximum damage, you count that as one less, then roll again and add the results together, for as long as you continue rolling max damage. It lets any weapon kill anybody, if you can win that particular lottery; a dagger rolling 4, then 4, then 4, then 4, then 3 does 15 damage, for instance.) (Of course, they do like chopping off heads when they themselves manage to do, say, 14 damage with their longswords, but that's just to be expected. :D ) (And, if anybody's interested, the average damage of a die goes up slightly from (min. dmg. + max. dmg.)/2 to (max. dmg./2 +1), so a longsword's average damage is 5 instead of 4.5, and a dagger's average is 3 instead of 2.5.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : vader42xx Date : 06-06-04 04:25 AM Yeah, I agree, the D&D version of Newhon was never all that good. Those books are good for source material and that's about it. The magic rules took too much away from each class in my opinion. I think some of that improved with the later 2e Lankhmar setting though. So instead of trying to run people though a world I don't think D&D covers very well I just use a very similar world when I'm in the mood for such things. Lots of the same ideas but none of the same names, etc. That's why Ghostwalk caught my eye for 3e and why I'm converting it to 2e now! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Twilight_Knight Date : 06-07-04 01:12 AM Originally posted by Elendur Coincidentally, I'm running A3 right now, and I plan I running A4. The players will lose at the end of A3, there's just no other way to get them into A4. However they won't just be knocked out with sleeping gas. The will get to face off against the slave lords, and they will have the chance to kill off as many of them as they can. The more lords they finish off, the easier it will be for them at the end of A4. I'm totally railroading them, but I'm also rewarding their play choices. They can surrender, negotiate with the slave lords, or full out attack. If they manage a 1 round K.O. on the Earth Dragon Priest, good for them(he's supposed to tp out on round 2). It just helps explain why them make a good sacrifice. I am a HUGE fan of the original A1-4 "Slavers" series. However, I tend to delete A4 and use A3 as the final mod. I just don't like the whole sleeping gas thing. And if that railroad isn't enough, once they awake, the clock is ticking as the approaching earthquake will destroy the island. Besides, the "final" battle in A3 has a couple of the best reoccuring NPC's I've ever used. I usually let the PC's slay some of the slavelords, but a couple get away. Brother Milerjoi, especially. I use him as a Scarlet Brotherhood agent who reappears periodically to annoy the players. If you use waterborn adventures, Feetla makes an excellent reoccuring pirate/buccaneer. Also, to many of us "old timers," Markessa, from A2, is a beloved reoccuring villain. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : Ath'kethin Date : 06-07-04 11:05 AM Originally posted by Gandalf_Istari I looked on both svgames and RPG Now in the past (and just did another search on both) and have been ubable to find that pdf. Is there someplace else that carries it, or is it tucked away in some dark corner on one of those sites and I'm missing it? I'd love to grab this on .pdf, as I have all of the other 1e hardcovers in pdf format except DL Adventures. If you want the actual book there are several copies for sale on eBay. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 07-01-04 01:09 PM DL is a great series. It really had a cohesive story and the characters have become icons in fantasy literature. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 07-01-04 02:00 PM Y'know I've just read through this entire thread and I'm...well, frankly amazed that Catoblepas can't think of any modules other than B2 that don't "require" railroading. Firstly, let me point out that A3's ending battle is very tough - not impossible. Indeed the module points out that if the party does win, they deserve a hearty congratulations from the DM. They still have to make it out of Suderham, etc., though. Now on to the specious comment that all modules other than B2 require railroading. Have you, Catoblepas, ever heard of N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God? Or I1 Dwellers in the Forbidden City? (Ironically one of the more OPEN AD&D modules starts off a series that wound up being ultra-railroady with the Desert of Desolation series and the atrocious I6 Ravenloft (yes, I hate Ravenloft)). What most people, and unfortunately apparently you, have forgotten is that adventure modules are not stand alone ready-to-play adventures. At least they shouldn't be. If they are, then they're railroads. A good dungeon master knows to go over a module with a fine toothed comb to make sure that everything is going to "fit" and adjust things which he knows won't. It takes far less time to do that than write your own adventure, so the granularity of the module concept is preserved. When and where this change in thinking - that modules had to be 100% complete and ready-to-play - came about I don't know. But I do know it's wrong, and it created (Don't)Choose Your Own Adventure-like modules of the despicable Dragonlance series, the Forgettable Realms, etc. I'd wager that you think C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan is pretty railroady, right? Only if used in it's original Tournament play mode. When played as a campaign module (as I have used it) there is NOTHING to prevent the party from exploring the shrine in other ways. Nothing except noncreative dungeonmastering, though. Well, I've probably gone on about one of my favorite subjects long enough. I now return you all to your regularly scheduled chaos. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 07-01-04 02:23 PM All modules, at least in my opinion, can use a little tweeking here and there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 07-01-04 06:18 PM Originally posted by TheDungeonDelver Firstly, let me point out that A3's ending battle is very tough - not impossible. Indeed the module points out that if the party does win, they deserve a hearty congratulations from the DM. They still have to make it out of Suderham, etc., though. However, A4 still requires that you start with no equipment, if played the way it was intended. Now on to the specious comment that all modules other than B2 require railroading. Have you, Catoblepas, ever heard of N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God? Or I1 Dwellers in the Forbidden City? I've heard of I1, but haven't played it. However, I've DMed N1 several times. That module requires that you have to railroad. After all, if the adventuer cme into town and say, "You know what? This town isn't worth it. Cults are too tough. Time to leave.", then you've pretty much on your own as a DM. You could do the wandering monster table for a while, but beyond that it's hopeless. You can make something up, but you're going beyond what the module can support. Also, you've got to point the party in the correct direction and have to figure a way to boost up the party for the BBEG if they don't follow the step-by-step approach to the module. The only freedom that you have is to what buildings you go to in the town. The module B2 has the advantage over N1 in the sense that if the party doesn't wish to go to the Caverns of Chaos (the main area), then there are other encounter areas on the area map that the group can undertake. In fact, they link B1 as an option to DMs. N1 has N2 as a vague reference, but beyond hat it is wandering monsters. I guess the only other modle that allows you some outside area encounters was U2 (it offered two of them). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Author : blackprinceofmuncie Date : 07-01-04 06:49 PM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas I guess the only other modle that allows you some outside area encounters was U2 (it offered two of them). L1 fits the bill as well. But I think you're being too stringent in your definition of "railroading". By your definition, any adventure ever published is a railroad, because if the PCs choose to not participate in any of the stuff detailed by the adventure it's useless. If you plop the PCs down in the middle of Orlane, they have numerous directions to go for adventure, numerous things to investigate, numerous people to talk to, numerous avenues to pursue to reach the ultimate conclusion of the module. I know because I've run it at least 4 times (basically unmodified) and each time the PCs have taken a different route, encountered different challenges and proceeded to the ultimate thread in different ways. Railroad implies one way, one straight line from beginning to end. That's not what N1 gives you. Your concern about the final encounter in N1 is valid. However, that's not a railroad problem, that's a deus ex machina problem. However, it's easily solved by tweaking the "reptile god". When I've run the adventure for low level characters, the reptile god became an intelligent giant snake with a few special powers, much more suited to low level PCs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 07-01-04 06:57 PM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas However, A4 still requires that you start with no equipment, if played the way it was intended. I've heard of I1, but haven't played it. However, I've DMed N1 several times. That module requires that you have to railroad. After all, if the adventuer cme into town and say, "You know what? This town isn't worth it. Cults are too tough. Time to leave.", then you've pretty much on your own as a DM. You could do the wandering monster table for a while, but beyond that it's hopeless. You can make something up, but you're going beyond what the module can support. Also, you've got to point the party in the correct direction and have to figure a way to boost up the party for the BBEG if they don't follow the step-by-step approach to the module. The only freedom that you have is to what buildings you go to in the town. [quote] The module B2 has the advantage over N1 in the sense that if the party doesn't wish to go to the Caverns of Chaos (the main area), then there are other encounter areas on the area map that the group can undertake. In fact, they link B1 as an option to DMs. N1 has N2 as a vague reference, but beyond hat it is wandering monsters. I guess the only other modle that allows you some outside area encounters was U2 (it offered two of them). I could make the same comment about B2 - the only choice the players have is what order they visit the encounter areas in, and once the Wandering Monster tables wear out the DM is on his own. Additionally, you might want to look at the Greyhawk set and consider the hex the module is placed in, in terms of wandering monsters and other possible events. Ultimately if a party doesn't want to go into an adventure area it doesn't matter WHAT module you're playing. Unless you use a tourney module as a tourney module (C1 - the party is trapped in the Shrine after a cave-in), then there's a degree of "narration" that has to go on. That's what Modules are there for, to provide the backbone for that narration (as I've mentioned before). However, there's "narration" and there's "Welcome to the game, here's your script.". This latter mindset comprises virtually all of the Dragonlance modules. There is no "turn the party loose" option for those modules, as it is clearly stated in the introduction (the original poster quoted this). And again, I don't argue about what A4 does or does not require; the fact is that there's no admonishiment to the DM at the end of A3 that he MUST MUST MUST kill/capture the party for things to "work". You see, old modules were like that - as I've said, they were a framework for the DM to work with. Not absolute scripts. If the party "wins" A3 and you want to use A4, who says it has to be right then? The Slavers might at a later date decide to exact revenge on the party, and that might be putting them in the Dungeons. Furthermore, once the players are in the dungeon getting out is up to them. If one survives, or if all survive, it makes no difference. Compare and contrast that with the DL series where you're told to keep the players alive and goad them down certain paths. Any decisionmaking by the DM or dice is completely removed. Completely. Also, hearkening back to the comments on B2, what if the party just wants to off the Minotaur and Kobolds, but not the Orcs and the Evil Cleric? Do you have the Evil Cleric just take it in stride and leave the party be? Or does he act against what is an obvious threat? Ultimately, whether or not you believe it, once an initial set of events is put in motion, the DM should be ready for the PCs to do "whatever". There should be no written rule that says "The players must go to room 'n'," or "The players must survive encounter 'x'." No good module ever had that as a consideration. That the DL series does should give you a clear understanding of my feelings about it - and I3-5, and I6 as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 07-01-04 07:43 PM Originally posted by blackprinceofmuncie L1 fits the bill as well. But I think you're being too stringent in your definition of "railroading". By your definition, any adventure ever published is a railroad, because if the PCs choose to not participate in any of the stuff detailed by the adventure it's useless. If you plop the PCs down in the middle of Orlane, they have numerous directions to go for adventure, numerous things to investigate, numerous people to talk to, numerous avenues to pursue to reach the ultimate conclusion of the module. I know because I've run it at least 4 times (basically unmodified) and each time the PCs have taken a different route, encountered different challenges and proceeded to the ultimate thread in different ways. Railroad implies one way, one straight line from beginning to end. That's not what N1 gives you. Your concern about the final encounter in N1 is valid. However, that's not a railroad problem, that's a deus ex machina problem. However, it's easily solved by tweaking the "reptile god". When I've run the adventure for low level characters, the reptile god became an intelligent giant snake with a few special powers, much more suited to low level PCs. *gasp* You mean a DM has to do some work?! ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Author : Amaron Blackthorn Date : 07-02-04 10:59 AM Some times the trick is to play some of the more intelligent monsters as if they are intelligent. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 07-02-04 06:44 PM All I am saying is that in my opinion railraoding is not a black or white issue. There are degrees to railroading. The adventure B2 has pre-made side adventures for the group to engage in that is outside of the main adventure. N1 allows the group to go anywhere in the city, but you have to follow the main storyline since there are no side adventures. If you're a DM and don't have side adventures created, you have to railroad them toward the main plot. Yes, as the DM you can always make your own side adventures, but then it just argues that you make your own adventure as well. At the very least, B2 has less of a propensity to railroading than N1. The main point of my original post was that Dragonlance didn't invent overt railroading. All you have to do is look at adventure N2 The Forest Oracle for the same type of railroading that Dragonlance is getting blasted for. (Oh, the mountain pass is closed off, I guess you don't want us to go that way ...) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 07-03-04 12:05 AM Originally posted by WizO_Catoblepas All I am saying is that in my opinion railraoding is not a black or white issue. I think there are issues where a DM might make the call to railroad or not; and as far as "you just make the adventure yourself", you're ignoring what I've said time and time and time again: older modules were NOT supposed to be there to strip the plastic off of and play right then. Unless you're running them in tournament mode (and even then at least ONE read-through is required, for heaven's sake...!) A good DM, a ready-to-play DM will have fit the module into his campaign; not simply tried to hammer it in and hope to goodness it fits. So the module doesn't have "Go here, do this" written in it. So what? You as the DM are supposed to be ready for these contingencies! There is a BIG HUGE VAST difference between N1 and DL1. There might be "shades of grey" between the two, but those two are pretty much black and white. One says "Town in peril. Players must fix." The other one says "Pretty please mister DM please don't let any of the PCs die or else our story won't work!" One is well suited for a flexible DM looking to actually play a game with a group of players, the other is well suited to the style of "role play" I refer to as "Welcome to the game, here's your script." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 07-04-04 12:02 AM Originally posted by TheDungeonDelver I think there are issues where a DM might make the call to railroad or not; and as far as "you just make the adventure yourself", you're ignoring what I've said time and time and time again: older modules were NOT supposed to be there to strip the plastic off of and play right then. Unless you're running them in tournament mode (and even then at least ONE read-through is required, for heaven's sake...!) I agree that a module is not ment to have plastic stripped off and played on the spot. However, modules should be designed so that there is minimal work required for the DM for setup. All I'm saying is that B2 requires less work from the DM if the party doesn't decide to follow the main storyline as does N1. Thus, as the DM, you're not trying to hope that the party doesn't catch on to the main plot of the adventure and hopefully finds the NPCs that they need to find for the adventure like the hermit for instance in N1. Yes in N1 they can roleplay and go to whatever house they want. However, the module is designed in a way that it follows a certain sequence. (Party has to find out about cult -> party has to find location of main dungeon of cult -> party has to find main NPC of adventure (or trip over a scroll of Minor Globe of Invunerability on the way to the main dungeon) -> party has to take out main dungeon of cult) Thus, you're trying to herd the party to follow the storyline. (If herd fits better than railroad, I'm ok with that) B2 has these side adventures such that if the party doesn't want to go to the Caverns of Chaos, they don't have to. It just requires less herding. A good DM, a ready-to-play DM will have fit the module into his campaign; not simply tried to hammer it in and hope to goodness it fits. So the module doesn't have "Go here, do this" written in it. So what? You as the DM are supposed to be ready for these contingencies! There is a BIG HUGE VAST difference between N1 and DL1. There might be "shades of grey" between the two, but those two are pretty much black and white. One says "Town in peril. Players must fix." The other one says "Pretty please mister DM please don't let any of the PCs die or else our story won't work!" As I said above, one may have railroading and one has herding. Yes, DL1 has more coersion required than N1. However, my main point in my original post was that the Dragonlance series didn't invent railroading in modules. If you want to see some serious railroading, then look at N2 The Forest Oracle. You have to take a specific path for the adventure to work. And N2 isn't even a tournament module. One is well suited for a flexible DM looking to actually play a game with a group of players, the other is well suited to the style of "role play" I refer to as "Welcome to the game, here's your script." Side adventures in modules aid the DM in flexibility. B2 has more side adventures than N1. Yes, a DM can make up as many side adventures as he want on his own to counter contingencies. However, in my book I've found that it is nicer if the modules had them pre-made. It's one less thing I have to worry about when I organize my game. Is N1 a lousy module for not having these side adventures in it? No. However, I appreciate B2 more for having these side adventures included. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.