* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Race/Class Separation in OOP D&D Started at 08-06-04 02:16 PM by havard Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=288872 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 02:16 PM Thread Title : Race/Class Separation in OOP D&D I'm getting pretty tired of reading these Off Topic threads going on here, so I'm gonna try starting something more constructive. I have never had a chance to play the D&D versions that existed before the Menzter Rules came out, but I understand that in those early D&D variants, races were not classes like they were in the Mentzer version, but separate like in AD&D. Can someone provide some more details on what these rules were like? Did the races have stat modifications. And what kind of other abilities were associated with ther races? I'm not asking for complete writeups, just trying to get an idea of the level of advantages associated with each race. What was the advantage of playing a human with those rules? And finally, would it be complicated to use those rules for races with the Mentzer/RC version of D&D? Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 02:25 PM dwarves could be fighting men elves were fighting men and magic users but had to choose between the classes for each adventure hobbits were fighting men with the addition of the Greyhawk Supplement I dwarves, elves, and halflings (renamed from hobbits)... could be thieves... elves had all three classes to choose between per adventure in OD&D no stat adjustments to ability scores for race in Chainmail elves and dwarves could see in the dark... this was not infravision. it was just a different ability to see in the dark like it was day. all of the races had level limits. thus to be a halfling in a long campaign only made sense if you liked the concept. humans were the predominant race for both the NPCs and the PCs. complications arose as the rules got changed by later authors. they aren't as different as ADnD but you could make them work in Mentzer. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 02:56 PM Thanks Diaglo! I never liked how the races had limits on what levels they could reach. In our AD&D campaigns, we simply ruled that demihumans reaching their level maxes could keep on gaining levels, though at double XP cost. (I think that was an optional rule). To me, the optional rules in the back of the RC allowing all classes to reach 36th level worked better. And what is it with Halflings always getting kicked around? I've been pondering with the idea of making races separate from classes in D&D, so you'd chose between the "Human" classes, but add the special abilities associated with that race. For instance, an elf would have: Infravision Detect Secret Doors Immunity to Ghoul Paralysis Cast Magic In armor (max Chainmail) Reduced Armor Proficency (allowed to wear armor that is one level weaker than normally allowed by that class, max Chainmail). To beef up the humans, keeping them in balance with the other races, I'll give them an increase in Hit Die type, so that 1d4 becomes 1d6, 1d6 becoms 1d8, 1d8 become 1d10 etc. These rules will allow for some more flexibility, while still keeping most of the simplicity of the Mentzer/RC rules. What do you think? Good idea, or not? Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 02:57 PM I could've sworn that there were optional rules towards the back of the RC that allowed for races to choose regular classes... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 03:04 PM Originally posted by Tenzhi I could've sworn that there were optional rules towards the back of the RC that allowed for races to choose regular classes... Nah, the optional rules you are referring to allow the races to advance to 36th level, but they still remain classes. Technically, Dwarves become quite similar to Dwarven Fighters and Halflings become quite similar to Halfling Fighters, but there is still no official way to make a Dwarven Thief (Though there was a Dwarf Cleric in the Rockhome Gazetteer). Also, with my rules, the Forester Class from the Dawn of the Emperors boxed set (basically an elf class for humans) would allow all races to fight at an improved level and cast spells, which is limited to elves in the standard rules. There are alot of variant classes out there in Dragon Magazine (Voyage of the Princess Ark series) and the various Gazetteers, but it usually consists out of making up a separate class for each race/class combination. Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : diaglo Date : 08-06-04 03:10 PM Originally posted by havard Thanks Diaglo! I never liked how the races had limits on what levels they could reach. In our AD&D campaigns, we simply ruled that demihumans reaching their level maxes could keep on gaining levels, though at double XP cost. (I think that was an optional rule). To me, the optional rules in the back of the RC allowing all classes to reach 36th level worked better. And what is it with Halflings always getting kicked around? I've been pondering with the idea of making races separate from classes in D&D, so you'd chose between the "Human" classes, but add the special abilities associated with that race. For instance, an elf would have: Infravision Detect Secret Doors Immunity to Ghoul Paralysis Cast Magic In armor (max Chainmail) Reduced Armor Proficency (allowed to wear armor that is one level weaker than normally allowed by that class, max Chainmail). To beef up the humans, keeping them in balance with the other races, I'll give them an increase in Hit Die type, so that 1d4 becomes 1d6, 1d6 becoms 1d8, 1d8 become 1d10 etc. These rules will allow for some more flexibility, while still keeping most of the simplicity of the Mentzer/RC rules. What do you think? Good idea, or not? Havard you are going way too fast for me. i'm still stuck back with OD&D. elves could not cast spells in armor. first off they had to choose a class for each adventure and abide by that class for the whole adventure. and secondly when they did change that rule.... it was only magic armor they could cast in... not all armor. and certainly not normal armor. elves also were immune to only Magical Sleep. they still slept normally. and they had beards in OD&D(1974) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 03:11 PM Ah yes, so it was... even expands on the Mystic back there. :P You mentioned super extra bonus optional classes... Has anyone assembled a list of all these optional classes for Basic(ish) edition, do you know? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-06-04 03:14 PM Originally posted by diaglo elves also were immune to only Magical Sleep. they still slept normally. and they had beards in OD&D(1974) Elves with beards? It boggles the mind. I can't even begin to picture it, it is so anathema to my anti-elf imagination. :eek: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 03:15 PM Originally posted by diaglo you are going way too fast for me. i'm still stuck back with OD&D. elves could not cast spells in armor. first off they had to choose a class for each adventure and abide by that class for the whole adventure. and secondly when they did change that rule.... it was only magic armor they could cast in... not all armor. and certainly not normal armor. elves also were immune to only Magical Sleep. they still slept normally. and they had beards in OD&D(1974) Wow! :) I guess Mentzer's version is quite a bit different then. Yeah, elves can cast spells in armor using the standard rules. I still havent quite decided whether that should become a feature of the race or remain a class feature if I separate the two though. Elves still sleep normally though, and according to Gaz 5 The Elves of Alfheim, very old elves do grow beards. Dwarf women do not have beards though, Aaron Allston made that quite clear in the Rockhome Gaz. ;) Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 03:26 PM Originally posted by Tenzhi Ah yes, so it was... even expands on the Mystic back there. :P You mentioned super extra bonus optional classes... Has anyone assembled a list of all these optional classes for Basic(ish) edition, do you know? Yeah, the RC finally made the Mystic a standard class (albeit optional), and with the appendix rules they were no longer limited to 16th level. I'm not familiar with any such list, though dnd.starflung.net might have something like that. I remember the following: Bard (VotPA) Half-Elf (VotPA) Elf Cleric (VotPA) Elf Thief (VotPA) Dwarf Cleric (Rockhome Gaz) Forester aka non elf elf (Dawn of the Emperors) Rake aka non thief thief (Dawn of the Emperors) Rakasta (VotPA, DnD Miniatures Box) N'djatwa aka Elf Ogre (VotPA) Wise Women (Northern Reaches Gaz) Horse Warrior (Ethengar Gaz) Bratak (Ethengar Gaz) Shaman (Ethengar Gaz) Shamani (Athruagin Clans Gaz) Halfling Master (Five Shires Gaz) Elf Wizard (Alfheim Gaz) Elf Lord (Alfheim Gaz) Shadowelf (Shadowelf Gaz) Shadowelf Shaman (Shadowelf Gaz) plus Orcs of Thar and the PC-series which allowed monster races as PCs... I probably forgot some of these too.. VotPA is short for Voyage of the Princess Ark, the amazing series that ran in Dragon for years written by Bruce Heard. Cant remember which issues the various classes appeard in though). Hope that helps! :) Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : zanderat Date : 08-06-04 05:06 PM for a better understanding of race/class you probably want to check out richard tongue's group site and ezine http://www.tongue.fsnet.co.uk/ and http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/theoddguild/ diaglo left work and is at home now. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : havard Date : 08-06-04 05:15 PM Originally posted by zanderat for a better understanding of race/class you probably want to check out richard tongue's group site and ezine http://www.tongue.fsnet.co.uk/ and http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/theoddguild/ diaglo left work and is at home now. ;) Thanks for the links! :) Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : diaglo Date : 08-09-04 07:07 AM Originally posted by havard Thanks for the links! :) also if you can find him look up Scott Ludwig... aka kviksverd on this board. he loves to tinker with new class/race combos -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : havard Date : 08-09-04 07:26 AM Originally posted by diaglo also if you can find him look up Scott Ludwig... aka kviksverd on this board. he loves to tinker with new class/race combos Thanks, again! Maybe he gets to read this :) Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : januarius jones Date : 08-09-04 02:43 PM Thread Title : race-based limitations on classes In 1eD&D, humans had the advantage that they could be any class and take it to any level (with three exceptions: assassin (15), monk (16), and druid(14) - later corrected in Unearthed Arcana). That was humanity's main advantage over their humanoid brethren. Gray Elves (Faeries) also received a +1 to their Intelligence (1eMM). Other than that, Diaglo pretty much summed it up: the other classes were to be role-played for fun or a different perspective. All the other classes stopped around 12th - 16th level, eliminating the chushest spells, highest number of attacks per round, and best saving throws. Humanity lacked the longevity of the elves and dwarves as well as the mystique of being considered elder races; so, we possessed the abilty to become more powerful than the others. It was designed to give the race of man a turn at the reigns of power ... or something like that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-11-04 12:58 AM Thread Title : Re: race-based limitations on classes Originally posted by januarius jones In 1eD&D 1e? Unearthed Arcana? Monster Manual? I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about AD&D. The thread starter is referring to just plain old D&D without the pesky A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : januarius jones Date : 08-11-04 08:48 AM Thread Title : "pesky A" My fault. I foolishly lump them together sometimes. You're right; they are different, or the sets would all have the AD&D sign in the upper corner. :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Varl Date : 08-11-04 11:41 AM Elves with beards? It boggles the mind. I can't even begin to picture it, it is so anathema to my anti-elf imagination. Tanis Half-elven from Dragonlance is a good image of an elf with a beard if you've ever seen him. Okay, technically, he's a half-elf, but still that's how I imagine elves with beards looking like. http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote/picturesd/dragnlnc/lance21.jpg -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : havard Date : 08-11-04 12:32 PM Originally posted by Varl Tanis Half-elven from Dragonlance is a good image of an elf with a beard if you've ever seen him. Okay, technically, he's a half-elf, but still that's how I imagine elves with beards looking like. http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote/picturesd/dragnlnc/lance21.jpg Gaz 5 The Elves of Alfheim has wonderful illustrations of old elves with bald heads and long white beards done by Stephen Fabian. Based on those illustrations I have ruled that the elves in my Mystara campaign can grow beards, but only at a very old age (say 700+) Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Tenzhi Date : 08-11-04 07:24 PM Originally posted by Varl Tanis Half-elven from Dragonlance is a good image of an elf with a beard if you've ever seen him. Okay, technically, he's a half-elf, but still that's how I imagine elves with beards looking like. I'm quite familiar with Tanis and co. And as you say, he's a half-elf - the entire reason he sports a beard is to seperate himself from his elven heritage. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:19 AM.