* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition Started at 03-09-07 10:57 PM by phaaf_glien Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=806407 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : phaaf_glien Date : 03-09-07 10:57 PM Thread Title : 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition I am looking for any material, or lacking that, any advice regarding 21st level and beyond druids in 2nd edition AD&D. There seems to be a considerable dearth of information on this subject, as neither the Complete Book of Druids, the high-level campaigns book nor any other 2nd edition source with which I am familiar offers much of anything useful on such powerful druids. 1st edition offers some suggestions which could be translated into 2nd edition in Unearthed Aracana, but even this source only goes up to 23rd level, and essentially only offers such powerful hierophants only the ability to travel all the Inner Planes without exception, etc. This to me is troublesome, for, as the rules stand as I know them, such powerful druids would essentially only gain hit points, THAC0 adjustments and proficiencies as they gained in levels beyond 20th, which would be rather disappointing to a player who had actually taken his character to such heights. There are no more spells to be had (spell access caps at 15th/16th), few other powers besides plane travelling, etc. I strongly believe that more should probably be offered to epic level hierophant druids. If anyone is familiar with a source which offers more information or insight on this, or has any suggestions regarding what powers such "epic" druids should have, please offer them up. It would be very useful to me. Also, as a note, I am not a "power gamer", and as a DM I have never leveled up my players to such ridiculous heights. I am purely curious on this subject, and am looking into it as more a mission of rounding out the rules, and for perhaps the creation of an unearthly powerful NPC hierophant. Thanks for any help you guys can offer. Thanks to oralpain for his help thus far on other subjects. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-10-07 02:42 AM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition There seems to be a considerable dearth of information on this subject, as neither the Complete Book of Druids, the high-level campaigns book nor any other 2nd edition source with which I am familiar offers much of anything useful on such powerful druids. Actually, DM's Option: High Level Campaign gives information for high-level druids along with the cleric description. They have exactly the same options as other priests, except that their level progression is different. The main improvements available are high level skills, a wider spell selection, and access to True Dweomer Another take on high-level characters is given in Dragon Kings, but it is very campaign specific (for the Dark Sun setting). There, the high-level druid actually starts transforming into a powerful spirit of nature. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Arcanda Date : 03-10-07 02:58 AM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition Player Handbook states: Upon stepping down, the former Grand Druid must relinquish the six bonus spell levels and all of his experience points but 1 (he keeps the rest of his abilities). He is now a 16th-level hierophant druid, and begins advancing anew (using the progression given in Table 23). The character may rise as high as 20th level as a hierophant druid (almost always through self training).It seems there is no 21st level druid. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : phaaf_glien Date : 03-10-07 04:00 AM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition Thank you for your input Arcanda and Agothokles, but I was already aware of all that both of you offered. The 2nd edition PHB essentially caps levels to 20th, so we need not necessarily conclude that druids are capped at 20th (besides, there are many published examples of very high level druids in 2nd edition materials, especially to be found in Forgotten Realms). As for Dark Sun spirits of the land, I shall modestly state that I am very knowledgeable on that setting, and regrettably the metamorphosizing advanced being druids of Athas are simply very different approaches to druidry when compared to standard 2nd edition druids, and so therefore I fear the Dark Sun rules will not be terribly helpful to me. Likewise, DM's Option: High Level Campaign is also largely useless, as the information it offers on high-level druids is quite simply pathetic. Indeed, I have become less and less impressed with that book over the years, as I do not generally accept its "true dweomer" material, nor do I find very fitting and likeable its system of advanced powers/skills, as it rings very much of 3rd edition etc. etc. Very flatly, in Forgotten Realms we have references to 40th level druid avatars (Silvanus), and yet the 40th is not as impressive as it could be, for, with the rules as I know them, such a high-level druid would not really have any extra spells, powers/abilities, or anything of the sort. "True dweomers" do not generally exist in that campaign setting, so he would not have those, and really, the High Level Campaign book's high-level powers were never really adopted in any 2nd edition material save for the book those powers came in (the powers were, although quite cool on the surface, rather poorly though out and often just a bit too much for the power-gamers). What is to be done? I believe, short of perusing Dragon and Dungeon magazine articles, that I shall be forced to make up my own rules for such very powerful hierophant druids. Any suggestions regarding such a formulation would be welcome. Should the druids be able to change more, or change into elementals? Should they progress in spell ability again at 21st? Should they not? What more could such powerful druids receive? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Higmorton Date : 03-10-07 11:40 AM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition If they can't do it already how about something like the following. 21 L: elemental form (player's choice) 1x/day 24 L: second elemental ability can be used 2x/day 27 L: third 3x 30 L: fourth 4x I would also suggest giving more animal companions as the druid increases. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : oralpain Date : 03-10-07 01:52 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition I don't think it's necessary to add anymore powers to the druid (and in accordance with the High Level Campaigns I stop THAC0 advancement at level 20, and all advancemnt at level 30). However, if you really think druids need additional abilities, just use the abilities from 1st edition and/or give druids standard preist spell progression. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Arcanda Date : 03-10-07 03:26 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition What is to be done? I believe, short of perusing Dragon and Dungeon magazine articles, that I shall be forced to make up my own rules for such very powerful hierophant druids. Any suggestions regarding such a formulation would be welcome. Should the druids be able to change more, or change into elementals? Should they progress in spell ability again at 21st? Should they not? What more could such powerful druids receive?I suggest the following: 1ed druids were supposed to stop at 23th level, gaining more powers from 16 to 23. The ability to conjure elementals in 2ed is translated as a spell, allowing the druid to conjure them. The ability to enter elemental planes is identical, but not the para-elemental, the shadow plane and so on. So, I think a good 21+ level druid should gain some more plane traveling power, such as para and quasi elemental planes. But also the true neutral plane of Concordant opposition, aka Outlands. It could be nice to gain, instead od elemental cojuration powers, some Conjure Rilmani power! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : phaaf_glien Date : 03-10-07 06:44 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition I believe I shall follow Higmorton. I sympathize oralpain... a large part of my gaming instinct says we should be conservative here. However, without extra spells or any powers at all, druids very strangely and very quickly fall behind all other classes. Rogues continue to gain percentage points each level, wizards and other priests continue to gain spells or even granted powers, and all warriors continue to gain better THAC0s, the treasure of their class. By your advice, druids would gain nothing that could compete with these other abilities. Simply put, the PHB did not generally address post-20th level abilities, and the Complete Book of Druids and High-Level Campaign Book just flat out avoided the issue. This has created a problem for any of us looking into this issue. I shall have to dwell on post 20th level druidic granted abilities... and somehow it seems improper to give them spell progression again. More abilities somehow seems appropriate. I am let down though that 2nd edition just seems to have failed us on this issue... there is no solid source or material on this... I shall have to make it up myself. I'll have to dwell on all your comments though. Thanks for the advice... perhaps I shall post what I come up with... if I come up with anything at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : karelias Date : 03-23-07 12:30 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition The thing is whether you want to spice up your own game and role playing or to write an "Druid Epic level Handbook" of some sort only for the sake of contributing to AD&D Druid History:) What i mean is that, if you feel that your 21st level druid is not advancing in an interesting way, there are some measures that could be taken so as to liven things a bit. I played a druid for four years, and this came up to me even when he was still 10th level. Together with my DM, we decided to include EVERY spell (sphere limitations of course) from the Priest's Spell Compendiums. In addition to that, we used a small reference on druids in these books. It says that, considering the "new" spheres (war,chaos etc.), the druid could relinquish the divination sphere in exchange for major access to Sun, Wards and Time and minor access to Travelers. These changes helped me change the way i perceived the game, and the way i interacted with it. The new spells gave a bit more "firepower" to the druid, but most of all, the priceless Time sphere(personal opinion) which can change the course of events in many circumstances. Something else that changed everything, was when i reached the 23rd level. Even though i could roam the inner planes at will for quite some time now, the true journey into the planes had just started. Easy travel, whenever i liked, to the Plane of Concordant Opposition (Outlands). This was the ticket to all the Outer Planes, because the Outlands are directly connected to them. I could even go to Sigil at will without using the portals, although this happened with the deliberate tolerance of the DM. The result is that after this, we started playing a planescape campaign, where the druid was as useful as any mage and warrior, because of the special abilities that he possessed. I know i haven't helped a lot with new info about the progressing, but i think that in the end, everything has to do with roleplaying and good ideas. I am very glad i met someone who likes druids as much as i do. Wish you great adventures ahead..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-24-07 04:30 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition I believe, short of perusing Dragon and Dungeon magazine articles, that I shall be forced to make up my own rules for such very powerful hierophant druids. You might try Dragon Magazine, but I'm not aware of any specific option for high-level druids there. Anyway, I'm not really getting your point about other classes getting more powers at level 21+. AFAIK, AD&D 2e does not make any reference to such characters outside the DM Options and Dragon Kings books, except for high-level wizards in CWH -- that book provides simply an extended spell progression. So, it doesn't seem to me that the druids get, e.g., less powers than the clerics -- that is, either you have a problem with 21+ level progression in general in AD&D 2e, or else you're already using some variant rules I'm not aware of for the other classes... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : phaaf_glien Date : 03-26-07 04:32 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition Your comments were helpful karelias. Although I must disagree with your DM's decision to allow your hierophant to appear at will in Sigil (what a mighty power indeed!), you brought up greater sphere access, which somehow or other I managed to forget about. Indeed, the Time sphere does seem rather appropriate to such High Druids, doesn't it? I'll have to give the sphere issue some more thought. Great for you to remind me though. Perhaps I shall finish my rough sketch for such ridiculously high level druids soon. (Again, for all concerned, the possibility of actually reaching such levels in a traditional game are next to nil... one would have to become the World Druid, the Grand Druid himself, to actually achieve hierophant status when he steps down. Reaching Grand Druid status would be a momentous achievement in and of itself. I can hardly imagine reaching such status, much less hierophant status, and far much less 21st level+ status!) As for Agothokles, I am of course aware that a perusal of Dragon magazine and other such periodicals might be useful (for the sake of completeness if nothing else), but as to your curiosity about why I am so interested in 21st level druids and beyond, I wish to say that I am keenly aware that the core PHB and DMG do not really address levels beyond 20th (and rightly so!). However, many many other publications do address the issue, and there are even mentions of such high level druids. Now, excluding Dark Sun, of which I am extremely familiar (the druids of that world are quite different than the normal campaign worlds... I am not following those rules here), I must again insist that, theoretically, 21st level+ druids, under current rules known to me, gain essentially nothing but hit points, proficiencies and feeble THAC0 improvements for any further levels. They do not even get further spells. Priests of all other sorts continue to accrue spells at such levels, as do wizards of all sorts. Thieves continue to get their rogue abilities, and even bards get excess spells (cf. Faiths and Avatars). Druids get none of this. Even warriors continue progressing with their chief ability, their THAC0 (don't get me started on paladin and ranger spell progression past 20th!). Druids should probably get something. And by the way, as said before, I feel the mechanics offered in the DM's Option for High Level Campaigns to be poorly conceived, and too close of a run-in to 3rd edition (and thus I am not accepting of them much here). I'll try and keep y'all posted. Thanks for everyone's advice. It's all something to think about. Perhaps druids simply shouldn't get any further powers past 20th. That's the price they pay for their earlier, quite extreme powers! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : havard Date : 03-26-07 04:42 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition I think the whole thing about Druids and their limitations of advancement in general are fairly stupid. If you allow other characters to advance beyond 20th, then druids should as well. Use rules for Cleric if needed. Ofcourse, I dont like Demihuman level limits either. We always used the optional rules that level limits could be ignored at the price of double XP. In retrospect Im thinking that was too high. Still, a similar philosophy could be used for Druids... Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : oralpain Date : 03-26-07 06:40 PM Thread Title : Re: 21st+ level hierophant druids in 2nd edition No offical rules that allow advancement past level 20 prevent druids from advancing past level 20. The argument is about the abilities the druid gains past such a level. I favor going btb and limiting them to increased hit points, proficencies, and casting level (spell progression stays fixed). I feel that this is plenty, especially considering the very rapid advance ment druids have at lower levels. It's more than fighters get. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:15 AM.