* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Started at 03-25-07 06:59 AM by True_Atlantean Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=815846 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 03-25-07 06:59 AM Thread Title : Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I've been foloowing this forum entry with great interest and really there is one observation that seems to show up time and again - that the new system (3.0/3.5) values rules more than role-playing and that the errors in the system translate into a completely different gaming experience and thus a perpetuation of this mindset. Excuse me if I followed that thoguht through further, I was attempting to capture the essence of what will be my question. Do we believe that the overall "fell" has been lost to D&D (as we know and love it) and if so, were you in a position to only be running/playing 3.0/3.5, how would you be able to recapture that "feel"? I look forward to your comments. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-25-07 07:44 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? The 3e system is definitely different from *D&D, and it does value rules more than roleplaying. It starts more or less with the same premises of OD&D/AD&D1e (pre Gazetters and Rules Cyclopedia), and then tackles to them the less loved innovations of 2e (Combat & Tactics, basically), thus pushing towards a more tactics-oriented combat game (i.e., a miniatures game). It also dropped the best settings -- and the best parts of settings it retained (e.g., Planescape was dropped in favor of going back to 1e-stlye Manual of the Planes). As to the second question, unfortunately the 3e rules, as they stand, severely hamper a game style similar to that of AD&D 2e or RC OD&D. Nothing short of drastically altering the game -- removing the skill system and replacing it with the AD&D2e NWP system or the closely related OD&D skill system -- can make 3e playable. Also, removing elements such as attacks of opportunity (as they are stated in 3e) would lead to significant alterations in the game system, probably well beyond what can be handled without restructuring the feat system as well. In the end, it seems to me that short of ignoring the rules and playing mostly freeform, there's really little that can be done to recapture the AD&D/OD&D feel using 3e rules. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-25-07 09:25 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Not quite that drastic Agathokles. I have found that reducing d20 Fantasy to its base mechanic (Saves/BAB/AC etc.) and playing it like it's Moldvay/Cook is pretty damn good. The simple d20 mechanic is the absolute genius behind the system. However, it's not allowed to breathe with all that extra garbage on top of it. I've also bundled all the skills (i.e. move silently + hide = stealth) and kept a few feats to help set characters apart and give them a little extra depth. All in all it's a very stripped down version and it works pretty well for my purposes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-25-07 09:59 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Not quite that drastic Agathokles. I have found that reducing d20 Fantasy to its base mechanic (Saves/BAB/AC etc.) and playing it like it's Moldvay/Cook is pretty damn good. I'm talking w.r.t. AD&D or BECMI/RC, not Moldvay/Cook. I'm not especially knowledgeable of pre-Mentzer D&D. Also, you'd still need to strip away skills and feats, and therefore to rebalance everything (one you remove feats, Rogues and Fighters are not anymore balanced, the same for Wizards and Sorcerers). Also, it would not be 3e anymore. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Varl Date : 03-25-07 04:29 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Do we believe that the overall "fell" has been lost to D&D (as we know and love it) Yes, I believe that. The rules-centricity of d20 has run amok imo. It's one thing to be passionate about the rules and make sure the system has good rules to go by, but it's something else when the rules encroach upon the ability to run the game. As for the "feel" of the game, the AD&D armor class system, the saves, the class archetypes, the NWPs, and the ability scores all work, and still work to this day. Yeah, yeah, I've heard about how d20's changes improved some or all of these to be better systems. Whatever. They're [AD&D systems] obviously are not perfect systems, but I'm not into this game to play perfect systems. We all fiddle with the game's systems anyway, to get them to the way we want them to perform for us, and for me, AD&D's systems work. Not all of them, of course, but those that don't I change. I didn't need WotC to make those design changes for me, and I still don't. and if so, were you in a position to only be running/playing 3.0/3.5, how would you be able to recapture that "feel"? Return to AD&D, and make the changes to it you want. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-26-07 03:07 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I wholeheartedly agree with Varl and Agathokles. It's what I and others have been saying on the original thread. Can you use 3rd Ed and derive a 1st/2nd Ed "feel" to the game? I don't see how, without profound and radical changes. And at that point, it really isn't 3rd Ed any more and is closer to a modified version of 2nd Ed. So it begs the question...why not just use 2nd Ed. as I and others seem to be doing, and continue to enjoy the feel of true RPGing. I agree, any problems with the 2nd Ed rules can easily be "tweaked" as Varl mentioned and I don't need TSR or WotC for that, either. Just another "Gaming Geezer" happily rolling dice. :rimshot: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 03-26-07 06:57 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Thanks for the comments thus far, guys. The main reason why I wanted to explore this was that I can recognise the power of nostalgia. When I was playing AD&D, it was the early nineties (it doesn't seem like seventeen years ago) and that period in my life was one that lacked the level of time commitments that my present one does. I had vast amounts of disposable free time and enough disposable income. Nowadays, I get my once a fortnight D&D game in and generally have to schedule time to read gaming books around the numerous other things in my life. I do want to qualify this last statement with the fact that I wouldn't change anything about life today. It is merely a statement of fact. However, it occured to me that perhaps my loyalty and love of the basic set and AD&D were influenced by that same nostalgia. The main point that seems to come through is that the rules influence the feel of the game. I was recently listening to a podcast by Fear the Boot, who discussed reasons for expansions and the like in RPG's. One point that I had to agree with, in respect ot D&D 3.0 was that expansions are useless if they add power but not depth to the gaming experience and this is perhaps the best description of 3.0/3.5. I can, in 3.0, take a feats that will let me break most of the rules and power-game my way into next week. I resisted the Skills and Powers expansion books for exactly the same reason. 3.0 just seems to be an extension of that. I'm intending to go back and run some red box soon - I'll let you all know how it turns out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : emeriliath Date : 03-26-07 11:44 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I've played mostly 1st edition and later with a mix of 2nd edition for most of my gaming life. The game's mechanics work smoothly, and DM's are free to interpret or invent house-rules. I think this is important. The DMG, as it's name states, is only a Guide. Imagination and fun are what's important; not rules piled on rules, piled on rules. This game is supposed to be a Role-Playing game, not power-gaming combat. A little hack & slash is fine, but it's not supposed to be the end all. I've been told of complete gaming sessions (in 3e) devoted entirely to a short combat! Whatever happened Role-Playing? Maybe the new game should be called a PGM (power-gaming with miniatures) instead of an RPG. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : RobertFisher Date : 03-26-07 02:24 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? When 3e came out, I thought it was the D&D I always wanted to create. I bought the books. I found a new group. I started trying to build three or four different campaign worlds. I bought lots of d20 system products for bits to steal. Yet, I became increasingly frustrated with trying to fit my worlds onto 3e or even the d20 system. (A brief re-acquantance with Gurps surprised me by how easily I could fit it to my worlds, but that's another discussion.) I started reading Gygax's articles on the early days in Dragon. I started looking for every scrap of that kind of stuff I could find. Gygax, Kuntz, & Mornard (& some others) described game I wanted to be a part of. I decided it was back to basics for me. Let D&D be D&D instead of trying to shoe-horn it into a different mold. New school rules + old school style. Let's go! As I learned more & more about the early days of the game, though, I learned that there were some significant differences in how I'd always played the game v. how they had. (I learned a few things about different ways to approach the hobby from dalliances with Fudge & some other games too.) The way I'd played it was often consistent with changes that had been made for 3e, but when looking at 3e from this older (but in many ways new to me) perspective, 3e looked like a bunch of fixes to things that were misunderstood instead of broken. Parallel, I realized that, in combat, I wanted tactics to be more important than mastery of the rules. I think 3e is an amazing work. I enjoy playing it. For the style of game I want to run, however, I find classic D&D a better fit. When I stopped playing D&D & AD&D in favor of other games in the early 1990s, I thought it was good riddance. I had no intention to ever play a version of D&D again. So, to call it mere nostalgia seems a bit odd to me. (Although, nostalgia plays a role in my parallel affair with classic Traveller.) I didn't return to classic D&D because I missed the good ole days. If anything, I returned to classic D&D because 3e gave me what I thought I wanted & proved to me that I didn't want it. Well, that's one version of my story, FWIW. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : RobertFisher Date : 03-26-07 02:38 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? The simple d20 mechanic is the absolute genius behind the system. How is the d20 mechanic any more genius than the DGP task system? The Gurps basic mechanic? The BRP basic mechanic? I tend to find the Free Kriegspiel mechanic (if anything) genius: Take in all the factors of the situation & use your knowledge & experience to decide (not calculate) the chance of success. Express that chance in x:10 terms. Roll a d10. Gygax's or Wesely's introduction a wider range of dice to be able to simply handle a greater range of probabilities was a pretty good idea too. (If you need 1:3 or 1:6, use a d6. If you need 5% increments, use a d20. If you need 1% increments, use d%.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : havard Date : 03-26-07 04:59 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I've been foloowing this forum entry with great interest and really there is one observation that seems to show up time and again - that the new system (3.0/3.5) values rules more than role-playing and that the errors in the system translate into a completely different gaming experience and thus a perpetuation of this mindset. I have hd no such experience with 3E. It is definately a rules heavy system, but no more rules oriented than the two editions of AD&D. The stress on enforcing "systems" for everything does make creating new things like monsters alot more of a complex affair than in previous editions. Excuse me if I followed that thoguht through further, I was attempting to capture the essence of what will be my question. Do we believe that the overall "fell" has been lost to D&D (as we know and love it) and if so, were you in a position to only be running/playing 3.0/3.5, how would you be able to recapture that "feel"? I look forward to your comments. Depends how people define the OOP D&D feel. When I play 3e, I like to think that I preserve the things I like about OOP D&D. I don't use miniatures. I dont care much about rules at all. I stick to the Core Rules rather than include all the bunches of stuff scattered over the sourcebooks (a hard lesson learned from the 2e years). AoOs are used at the DM's whim, more or less like Free attacks were often house ruled in older editions. I like dealing with the D20+bonus mechanic for everything and the multiclass rules and unfied XP table of the new edition. My latest realization though, is that what I was the most happy about in 3E, I could have been doing with XD&D in the 80s and 90s myself if I had had the guts; Clerics with swords, Dwarven Wizards, badass halflings, humans multiclassing etc etc. It's all about mindset isn't it? Ofcourse that is pretty much the opposite of what most people consider the old school feel. The tropes or archtypes of D&D was what made me abandon the game in the mid 90s. Many people hate 3E for breaking with those. Me, I wish I had done those things in 1990 in my Classic D&D campaign. Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-26-07 05:29 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Ofcourse that is pretty much the opposite of what most people consider the old school feel. The tropes or archtypes of D&D was what made me abandon the game in the mid 90s. Many people hate 3E for breaking with those. Actually, more than for breaking them, I'd say for removing them: AD&D already broke them, when needed (e.g., Dwarf Sha'irs in Al Qadim and human multiclasses in Legends & Lore, Clerics with variant weapon selections almost everywhere). Breaking some stereotypes was part of the uniqueness of several settings. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-26-07 06:10 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? How is the d20 mechanic any more genius than the DGP task system? The Gurps basic mechanic? The BRP basic mechanic? I tend to find the Free Kriegspiel mechanic (if anything) genius: Take in all the factors of the situation & use your knowledge & experience to decide (not calculate) the chance of success. Express that chance in x:10 terms. Roll a d10. Gygax's or Wesely's introduction a wider range of dice to be able to simply handle a greater range of probabilities was a pretty good idea too. (If you need 1:3 or 1:6, use a d6. If you need 5% increments, use a d20. If you need 1% increments, use d%.) Did you sleep through the last seven years or something? Everything is d20 my friend. It ain't by accident. The d20 system is damn good, to a point. After it reaches a level that approaches LEGO where it's just a snap to add more and more crap it fails apart due to the weight of the rules. And it is my opinion that the basic d20 rules are sheer genius. Want to fight about it?! ;) But to go back to the original premise of this post; no, 3.5 in no way can replace the older editions in the feel factor. We all pretty well get that on this board. Why? It's simple...yep,that's it...simple. AD&D/BECMI are all simple to play and allows the DM and player a certain range to blur the rules. Seriously, how many of us looked in the first 3.0 PHB/DMG and said "Damn, that's the way I've been playing D&D for the last ten years!" I did. A whole host of 3.0 rules from multiclassing to level limits and class restrictions was almost just like the way I played D&D. But, something was off. The prestige classes and feats and skills seemed a little too cumbersome. The combat rules again seemed a little too cumbersome. Like you Robert, I really liked 3.0 when it first came out but the more I studied what was changed the more I realized TOO MUCH was changed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-26-07 06:17 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? My latest realization though, is that what I was the most happy about in 3E, I could have been doing with XD&D in the 80s and 90s myself if I had had the guts; Clerics with swords, Dwarven Wizards, badass halflings, humans multiclassing etc etc. It's all about mindset isn't it? Ofcourse that is pretty much the opposite of what most people consider the old school feel. The tropes or archtypes of D&D was what made me abandon the game in the mid 90s. Many people hate 3E for breaking with those. Me, I wish I had done those things in 1990 in my Classic D&D campaign. Havard Oh, I did. The core group I gamed with in the late 80s and early 90s was all about changing some rules. We still used the 1e assassin in 2e with a twist here and there. I played an elven paladin in 2e and had a dwarf wizard too. We multiclassed for humans and xp went into the class of your choosing. We changed everything to suit our tastes. That's why I went completely ga-ga over 3.0 when it first came out! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-26-07 06:20 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I'm talking w.r.t. AD&D or BECMI/RC, not Moldvay/Cook. I'm not especially knowledgeable of pre-Mentzer D&D. Also, you'd still need to strip away skills and feats, and therefore to rebalance everything (one you remove feats, Rogues and Fighters are not anymore balanced, the same for Wizards and Sorcerers). Also, it would not be 3e anymore. Ok. Well, it works for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : sgt_d Date : 03-26-07 06:22 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I've played pretty much all versions of D&D/AD&D. Really, the only thing that I find laking in 3/3.5 for feel is in the artwork and stylization. I'm sorry, and this is purely my opinion, (which means that any have the right to disagree and I won't take offense) but the current art feel of 3.x D&D is kind of a tribal/nu-metal/Joss Whedon feel. Not my thing, personally. I've always liked the "pharmacutically-inspired" (HAHA) artwork of the late 70's and early 80's. 'Cuz seriously, some of those dudes had to have been smoking something! :D And that was half the fun, the artwork was so out of this world! Just my $0.02, I guess. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-26-07 08:10 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? As I've stated before elsewhere, and again, it's just my opinion and the experiences I've had. 3.X is another game, not D&D. AD&D is my favorite because I feel good playing it and after playing it. I regularly recruit 3.X players into my 2nd Ed games successfully. I feel the rules are set to let you roleplay in the earlier editions and the rules are the point of the exercise in 3.X. The result of my attempts to play 3.X is I get angry. I don't need that and thus I don't need 3.X. I don't really see why we need to blend the two, at all. There are those of us who continue in and enjoy the earlier versions. Why on earth should we need the later versions? If we are happy with the earlier versions, just let us enjoy them and converse with like minded people on ideas or "warstories" or whatever. :rimshot: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-26-07 09:31 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? As I've stated before elsewhere, and again, it's just my opinion and the experiences I've had. 3.X is another game, not D&D. AD&D is my favorite because I feel good playing it and after playing it. I regularly recruit 3.X players into my 2nd Ed games successfully. I feel the rules are set to let you roleplay in the earlier editions and the rules are the point of the exercise in 3.X. The result of my attempts to play 3.X is I get angry. I don't need that and thus I don't need 3.X. I don't really see why we need to blend the two, at all. There are those of us who continue in and enjoy the earlier versions. Why on earth should we need the later versions? If we are happy with the earlier versions, just let us enjoy them and converse with like minded people on ideas or "warstories" or whatever. :rimshot: I probably shouldn't be but I'm a little offended by your post here. I love the old editions wholeheartedly but let's not kid ourselves we are old cowboys in the days of horseless carriages. I love my horse and I'll ride it but my horseless carriage sure is sweet to have. I think there's a lot of high minded gobble-doo-gook being thrust around this board and some of you are becoming no better than the brainwashed 3.5 zealots that call us old folks and curse us for loving THACO so dang much. I get the impression that since I so daringly decided to have my cake and eat it too by blending a little of the old with a little of the new now I'm less of an old edition gamer in your opinion and others as well. That hurts. If we all rabidly defend AD&D like the 3.5 fanboys that rule the other boards then we are no better, perhaps worse. I mean nothing personally Horemheb, and I'm not angry, but I really take offense to the tone of your post. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : mysticpot31 Date : 03-26-07 09:56 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I just cant stand the minis being a collectible card game. Its sad when Drizzt can cost more on E bay then going to the local hobby store and buying a collosal red dragon:P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : ZaratheMad Date : 03-26-07 11:41 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Thats a susict way of putting it. Still even haveing played 3ed a little I find it too confusing. Geee I feel old now- It must have only been '95 when I stated playing..... Zaxon said: I love the old editions wholeheartedly but let's not kid ourselves we are old cowboys in the days of horseless carriages. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-27-07 01:26 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Zaxon, it was chiefly YOUR tone that prompted my reply. I was offended by the inference that you delivered that only people who blend with the current system were paying attention. I am a little put out with that attitude. I don't just swallow the "latest thing" because that's what the ad people are telling me I should like. I tried and evaluated the "new thing" and found it sorely lacking in what I like as an RPG. That was and is my opinion. You and I are both allowed that. If I enjoy talking to other fans of the AD&D and Basic systems about that, and the feeling some of us have that the feel of those systems is more enjoyable to us, why should our opinion bother you so? The question was, "could 3.X be used to generate the same kind of 'feel' as the earlier versions?". My opinion, shared by some of the others who responded to it, is no, and for the reasons stated. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : havard Date : 03-27-07 06:57 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? the current art feel of 3.x D&D is kind of a tribal/nu-metal/Joss Whedon feel. Sorry for the thread jack, but did you just use Joss Whedon's name as something negative? :eek: Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-27-07 08:37 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Zaxon, it was chiefly YOUR tone that prompted my reply. I was offended by the inference that you delivered that only people who blend with the current system were paying attention. I am a little put out with that attitude. I don't just swallow the "latest thing" because that's what the ad people are telling me I should like. I tried and evaluated the "new thing" and found it sorely lacking in what I like as an RPG. That was and is my opinion. You and I are both allowed that. If I enjoy talking to other fans of the AD&D and Basic systems about that, and the feeling some of us have that the feel of those systems is more enjoyable to us, why should our opinion bother you so? The question was, "could 3.X be used to generate the same kind of 'feel' as the earlier versions?". My opinion, shared by some of the others who responded to it, is no, and for the reasons stated. Whoa! MY TONE! What tone is that? I mentioned that I have played (once!) a stripped down version of 3.5, liked it, yet, prefer the older editions still and I have a TONE! I never ever said that 3.5 could replace the feel of the older editions - NEVER. You jump me, insult me, belittle my preference in a stripped down 3.5 and I'm the one with a TONE? This is a game not a religion! What's this with "your opinion" crap? I posted a preference, that's all. I never took a shot at you or anyone else on this board. But, you post a snide little comment basically calling me unpure b/c I don't believe in gaming exactly the way you do.My post was in a response of "what would you do" that's all. But let me spin it for you - why the hell should my opinion bother you and set you off into a tizzy? Maybe instead of instantly judging someone kindly ask them why they posted their comments and ask for further explanations. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : dontheox Date : 03-27-07 10:23 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? What is the problem with 3rd edition, should have been the title of this thread. Do you have the same problems with 3rd edition as me, not wanting to change over because of cost and do not want to have weird almost traitorous feelings when playing it? Maybe you are angry that TSR was bought out and then thrown to the wolves? Or like some people (mainly "Gary") think that 3rd edition is the bastard child of two companies. What ever reason you have for not switching over to third edition this is not the point of your question in the title. To answer the question, "Yes there is AD&Ders left." I believe there will always be AD&D and that the 3.5 vs. AD&D argument will always be around and all the same points from both sides will be brought up and then we will all go back to what we were playing in the first place. I know I sound like a grumpy old man and even though I will probably never play 3rd edition tabletop, I guess I am just tired of seeing the same argument over and over again. Sorry in advance if I ticked anyone off. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-27-07 11:11 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Did you sleep through the last seven years or something? Everything is d20 my friend. Zaxon, this is what I was talking about. Ultimately, I agree with Dontheox. What we choose to game in, old or new, will always remain a matter of taste. It is cool that WotC puts a forum here for us "Gaming Geezers". (Though I sometimes think they'd rather it be here than a "more public" forum.) I would only suggest you reread your earlier post and entertain the thought that it might be a little more condescending than you intended. For my part, my response may also have been more heavy handed than I wanted it to be. For that, you have my apology. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-27-07 01:02 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Did you sleep through the last seven years or something? Everything is d20 my friend. Zaxon, this is what I was talking about. Ultimately, I agree with Dontheox. What we choose to game in, old or new, will always remain a matter of taste. It is cool that WotC puts a forum here for us "Gaming Geezers". (Though I sometimes think they'd rather it be here than a "more public" forum.) I would only suggest you reread your earlier post and entertain the thought that it might be a little more condescending than you intended. For my part, my response may also have been more heavy handed than I wanted it to be. For that, you have my apology. Hey, I apologize too for what it's worth. I certainly do not want to give anyone that impression. I was being a little too heavy on the sarcastic humor on that little rip on Robert. I also apologize to Robert if he took it the wrong way. So, let's drop this non-sense and get back to the original intent of the post. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-27-07 01:35 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Sounds good to me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : RobertFisher Date : 03-27-07 03:48 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I was being a little too heavy on the sarcastic humor on that little rip on Robert. I also apologize to Robert if he took it the wrong way. No apology necessary. Did you sleep through the last seven years or something? Everything is d20 my friend. It ain't by accident. The d20 system is damn good, to a point. After it reaches a level that approaches LEGO where it's just a snap to add more and more crap it fails apart due to the weight of the rules. And it is my opinion that the basic d20 rules are sheer genius. Want to fight about it?! ;) I don't want to fight about it, but I'd like to know why you consider the basic mechanic genius. Everything is not d20. My group has only had about five d20 based campaigns since 2000. Even if it were, an appeal to popularity doesn't really tell me what you find genius about it. My experience with popular products in general makes an appeal to popularity pretty meaningless to me. It may not be an accident that D&D dominates the market, but don't underestimate the power of the brand. Personally, I think any genius in the d20 system is that is such a large & coherent system. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 03-27-07 06:36 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I don't want to fight about it, but I'd like to know why you consider the basic mechanic genius. Personally, I think any genius in the d20 system is that is such a large & coherent system. It really is a matter of opinion Robert, I respect yours. That's all I can say other than genius is in the eye of the beholder. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 03-28-07 06:28 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I have to agree that a blending of the systems definately has its' advantages, but really, most of us were only using what we wanted in AD&D, and that sentiment can be used for any RPG. I play World of Darkness and have dug my heels in against the new system, but that is primarily because by converting to the new system that is significantly different from the previous ones would invalidate the 100 sourcebooks I've bought over the last ten years. It is simply too much work to convert and integrate between the systems. This was my feeling when 3rd ed was announced. I cancelled my Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions, seeing that they would now be filled with material completely incompatible with my campaign and that all of the 'consumer loyalty' I'd had with TSR had been betrayed. I felt that the last 12-15 years of purchases were now incompatible and worthless if I joined the 3/3.5 bandwagon. However, I have come to realise that it is not the system that defines the experience, but those that play the game. I have had some success in running first edition modules for third edition games and had great fun. Last week I ran Ghost Tower of Inverness and managed to keep most of the 'feel' present. It is a challenging, scary module that has a great sense of adventure and gives mental and physical chalenges. This could be run in almost any fantasy setting and still be a great module. Would I have preferred to play it as a 1st ed module? Yes. Can it be run as a 3rd ed module if that is the parties choice? Yes. However, I am still bent on running first ed and even Basic D&D, because I enjoy the simplicity. Yes there are some flaws that need to be fixed, and I'm sure that if the technology was accessible during the late eighties, we'd probably have seen some like discussion from the transition between 1st and 2nd editions. (That said, the changes were far less radical and your rules were at least somewhat compatible). I'll agree with the point that becoming a blind OOP zealot is not the way to go, but I'll certainly not champion the 3.5 cause. It's very obvious that we are all on the same page here, which I think makes this community very important and we can all be valuable to each other. I have seen a level of maturity (and literacy) that I don't see on any othe rpart of the forums, which, combined with my love of 2nd ed obviously, is why I'm here. Lastly, check this out. It shows one of the aspects of 'feel' that I rail against and can clearly see why the mindset is being perpetuated - especially if it is the company line. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070327a Thanks for the thoughts, guys. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 03-28-07 12:35 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Actually, I don't consider myself a "blind OOP zealot"; a well read, well educated and discerning one, yes. My experience with 3.X has been uniformly negative, so the thought of blending something that I hold in such distaste with something I support and enjoy thoroughly is hard to stomach. I am passionate about all the beliefs I have, whether it's team sports for kids, classic rock and blues music or liberal politics. To blend with any of their "opposits" results in the same reaction from me. I defend what I believe. This doesn't mean I won't change. It means I need proof, on my terms, that the change is beneficial and not a detriment. I haven't seen that from 3.X. I am experienced in theater and have done years of live-scale RPGs. The role-playing aspect of RPGs is one of the most important things that drew me to them. My experience with 3.X from attempting to play it and from being around running my 2nd Ed several times while a 3.5 Ed was running in the same room, is that a very large part, close to all, of the role-playing is missing. This is particularly true when you see the two played side by side. I do enjoy the interplay of good minds I typically see on the OOP threads. There are just some things on which some of us will disagree. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Varl Date : 03-28-07 01:21 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Lastly, check this out. It shows one of the aspects of 'feel' that I rail against and can clearly see why the mindset is being perpetuated - especially if it is the company line. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070327a Thanks for the thoughts, guys. Wow. Please tell me that exchange was done solely for dramatic purposes, and didn't actually happen in a game they played in. Is that what D&D has come down to? They spent more time negotiating the perfect magic item deal between player and DM that I thought I was watching two merchants go at it under a tent with flies buzzing about. I don't think I've ever read such a display of unmitigated metagaming in my life. Are they playing a game, or negotiating a contract? Heh. In our day, you were thankful you even found magic items, not ****** and moaned about what you found, and arranged backroom deals with the DM for something better. :rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Llwch Date : 03-30-07 01:26 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? The main reasons I didn't stick around with 3.x D&D are twofold. First, was cost - with the core books being fully 50% to 100% more expensive than the 2nd edition books I already had, I didn't see that it made financial sense. Given that I have kids (which are a financial responsibility in and of their own), and that I've bought and sold two entire previous versions of D&D (the BECMI set, replaced by 1st Ed AD&D, then 2nd Edition), I'm not at all inclined to do this again. Though, in a moment of weakness (and about 3 months before 3e was "updated" to 3.5e), I bought the PHB, DMG, Psionics Handbook, Monster Manual and Manual of the planes. I had intended to get back into gaming and thought (rather ridiculously) that I'd have to buy the new edition if I wanted to play. Part of that I blame on a 'con experience I had prior to this purchase - everyone was playing 3e, and only 1 table was doing 2nd edition. Second, and this is a stylistic and tast matter, more than anything else - is that I just really don't like 3.x D&D. Yeah, it's still D&D, in that you roll your character, equip them, write up a brief bio, etc etc. Then, you grab your sword/mace/staff/dagger or whatever other weapon you need, and head off to make your fame and fortune. Great idea - one which nearly every FRPG has done since D&D started it all way back when. My problem with 3.x D&D is mainly in the presentation. It's been said before (by others), and I often find myself feeling the same thing. It just doesn't feel like D&D to me. Too much in it seems like a game of Pokemon, or an arcade game, where the player is waiting for the next big "power up". Yes, I know, that may not be entirely accurate, but that's the impression I get of it. Do I condemn those who play 3.x D&D? Heck no. If my son or daughter decide that they want to get into 3.x D&D, they're welcome to save their $$$ and buy it. I might even play it. But I won't be buying it - I've been down the "you gotta buy the new version, which will cut down on the massive amount of resource material" road too many times already. Call me a dinosaur, I'm happy with my (altogether too large) collection of AD&D 2nd Edition material. And no, I will not stroke the binding of my still mint-condition Monstrous Manuals and Player's Option hardbacks, and hiss, "My precioussssssssssssssssss..." :heehee -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 03-30-07 03:58 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Just a reminder to everyone: This forum isn't for bashing 3rd edition. If you want to talk about OOP, then talk about OOP. What's funny, though is that every "problem" with 3e is NOT new. The same exact things were said about 2nd edition and 1st edition as well. Powergamers have been around since the beginning. As was getting the "next best thing". You can't tell me your 2nd edition character didn't get rid of his +1 weapon in favor of a +3 weapon. Min/Maxing has always been part of the game. (Playing Bualdur's gate again, I found myself repeatedly clicking the "reroll" button to get better stats.) I even remember when D&D 2nd edtion was called the "Dumbed down" version. ;) I still have my earlier edition books, and they're handy references for any "future" game I plan to run. Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue is still in my top picks for books. I also have some of the 1st edition character sheets around. I knew back then that I didn't want to write on the sheets themselves, so I made copies instead. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Vrykolas2k Date : 03-30-07 07:32 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Yes, there are still people who play AD&D. I have for a long time; in fact, 1st ed. And to let the other posters know, recently I did a comparison between editions with my group, using AD&D 1st ed. and 3.5. Most players are in the 16-23 yrs age range, and after just a few sessions, everyone unanimously decided 1st ed. was the game to run. They like the way everything works better, and they like the feel of the game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 04-02-07 06:55 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Most players are in the 16-23 yrs age range, and after just a few sessions, everyone unanimously decided 1st ed. was the game to run. They like the way everything works better, and they like the feel of the game. Out of curiousity, had any of them played before? What edition did they start with? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : Vrykolas2k Date : 04-02-07 11:36 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Out of curiousity, had any of them played before? What edition did they start with? None of them had played 1st ed. before, just 3.0 & 3.5, as well as Rifts {another game I run}; except for my g.f., who had played 2nd ed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : Vrykolas2k Date : 04-02-07 11:39 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Just a reminder to everyone: This forum isn't for bashing 3rd edition. If you want to talk about OOP, then talk about OOP. What's funny, though is that every "problem" with 3e is NOT new. The same exact things were said about 2nd edition and 1st edition as well. Powergamers have been around since the beginning. As was getting the "next best thing". You can't tell me your 2nd edition character didn't get rid of his +1 weapon in favor of a +3 weapon. Min/Maxing has always been part of the game. (Playing Bualdur's gate again, I found myself repeatedly clicking the "reroll" button to get better stats.) I even remember when D&D 2nd edtion was called the "Dumbed down" version. ;) I still have my earlier edition books, and they're handy references for any "future" game I plan to run. Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue is still in my top picks for books. I also have some of the 1st edition character sheets around. I knew back then that I didn't want to write on the sheets themselves, so I made copies instead. Somewhat true, though I will say the +1 weapon always went to henchmen, or the leaders of my character's followers or {if the elite followers were few enough, and I had enough +1 weapons, to the elites}. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : chatdemon Date : 04-02-07 02:07 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? (Playing Baldur's gate again, I found myself repeatedly clicking the "reroll" button to get better stats.) I just use Gatekeeper and go with all 18s (or all 25s if I want to god mode) :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : Vrykolas2k Date : 04-02-07 06:38 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Wow. Please tell me that exchange was done solely for dramatic purposes, and didn't actually happen in a game they played in. Is that what D&D has come down to? They spent more time negotiating the perfect magic item deal between player and DM that I thought I was watching two merchants go at it under a tent with flies buzzing about. I don't think I've ever read such a display of unmitigated metagaming in my life. Are they playing a game, or negotiating a contract? Heh. In our day, you were thankful you even found magic items, not ****** and moaned about what you found, and arranged backroom deals with the DM for something better. :rolleyes: Wow. Madness. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 04-02-07 08:58 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I showed that exchange between the DM and Player to my 16 year old daughter who has been playing in a 2nd Ed adventure I DM for a little over a year. She couldn't believe it. One of her comments was "They are kidding, aren't they?'. From the mouths of babes. :rimshot: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-03-07 12:10 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? As you look you'll find that levelling up and gaining powers is less a concern than bigger, more intangible things. Exploring, gaining a name for yourself, gaining a domain and ruling it, becoming a factor in the world. A lot of the "win" conditions were not tied to your characters sheet, but his position in a living world. D20 systems take away a lot of those elements, and replace them with mechanical gains and benefits. Obviously this is quite popular, as games like 3.x and Exalted reveal, but as an old hand Runequest player, it has no interest for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : Vrykolas2k Date : 04-03-07 02:37 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? As you look you'll find that levelling up and gaining powers is less a concern than bigger, more intangible things. Exploring, gaining a name for yourself, gaining a domain and ruling it, becoming a factor in the world. A lot of the "win" conditions were not tied to your characters sheet, but his position in a living world. D20 systems take away a lot of those elements, and replace them with mechanical gains and benefits. Obviously this is quite popular, as games like 3.x and Exalted reveal, but as an old hand Runequest player, it has no interest for me. I have to agree. Runequest... now there's a game I've not heard of in awhile. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-03-07 02:38 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Mongoose is publishing it currently. RQ3 is pretty much the game that I compare everything else against. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 04-03-07 10:24 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? As you look you'll find that levelling up and gaining powers is less a concern than bigger, more intangible things. Exploring, gaining a name for yourself, gaining a domain and ruling it, becoming a factor in the world. I'm running an FR campaign at the moment and using the 1st ed modules as we go. Thus far, the players are having a blast (even though the Ghost Tower of Inverness has almost killed all of them - they will complete it when everyone gets back after Easter). However, one of the themes I'm intending on using is the fame that comes with being adventurers. There should be a mystique about the 'profession'. If you think about it, the idea of being an adventurer is quite liberating (apart from the life expectancy). You travel, with some reward, go to exotic locales and do heroic tasks. To the average person, this is really something worthy of admiration (or envy). Hell, as I sit at my desk, the lifestyle is looking good to me.... But I digress. The one question I wanted to ask was whether the system actually supports character growth or whether you think that the level-based system of D&D (no matter what edition) causes you to be primarily defined by class as opposed to other games where you don't have 'classes' and have more opportunity to customise. Have you found that small additions in 3.0/3.5, such as skill points and feats have enhanced the customisation process, or just opened the door to the power-gamers. I knew plenty of power gamers in 2nd ed, so I'm not trying to preach that they didn't exist then. Min-maxers were not welcome at my table. Food for thought. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : Llwch Date : 04-03-07 11:24 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? But I digress. The one question I wanted to ask was whether the system actually supports character growth or whether you think that the level-based system of D&D (no matter what edition) causes you to be primarily defined by class as opposed to other games where you don't have 'classes' and have more opportunity to customise. Like you, I realize min/maxers exist in any game system - this is not a strictly xD&D issue. :) To be honest, that may have been a problem more when I was a new player/DM back when I was in Grade 7 & 8. I remember having a PC that had all stats 16 and up. All "natural rolls", of course. :P However, with maturity as both a player, and as a DM, one usually comes to realize that (to quote Shakespeare) "the play's the thing". It's a game. Have fun with it. :) I prefer less structured games. For example, in my games I rarely roll "true dice", merely give the appearance of rolling - I prefer the game to be fun over a rollfest. That doesn't mean I "fudge" my way through games, I don't. I do fudge when needed (which is a key DM skill, IMHO, especially knowing WHEN to fudge, and when NOT to). Take my kids' game, for example. I ALWAYS roll dice, but often decide arbitrarily, based on what I think would make the game the most fun, without it being too easy for them. For example, one girl in my son's gaming group by all rights should have had her 1st level elf (we're playing BECMI) die 3 times our last session. However, since she's new to gaming, I didn't kill her outright, but she did have to get dragged out of a pool of blood each time, and the timing was at a point that made things difficult for the rest of the group. Hopefully, she'll learn something from this, and my son has already surreptitiously told her that she may need to change her nickname from "the Lucky" to "the Reckless". In my more adult games (using 2nd Edition AD&D), and (in particular) in my PBeM, I require a detailed character bio/questionnaire to be completed prior to accepting a character concept. This is even before any dice are rolled. Since my gaming focuses more on the narrative and on the "fun" element, I want the characters to seem more than cardboard cutouts. Needless to say, since I incorporated this into my gaming, the quality of the characters being played, and of the roleplaying in the sessions, has increased drastically. Limits in character adaptability and individuality are an artificial plateau, created by DMs who are unwilling, unable or afraid of "pushing the limit" a bit (without the game becoming a Monty Haul treasure fest dungeon crawl). (Don't get me wrong, we all like a good combat-heavy hack & slash session now and then, though. That's what Diablo is for. :D) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : RobertFisher Date : 04-03-07 03:20 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? The one question I wanted to ask was whether the system actually supports character growth or whether you think that the level-based system of D&D (no matter what edition) causes you to be primarily defined by class as opposed to other games where you don't have 'classes' and have more opportunity to customise. Have you found that small additions in 3.0/3.5, such as skill points and feats have enhanced the customisation process, or just opened the door to the power-gamers. When I look back on my favorite PCs, the qualities that make them my favorites have nothing to do with mechanics. So, the abundance or lack of mechanical PC options in a game has little to do with creating & growing interesting characters, in my experience. But to speak to mechanics for a moment: In some games, you seem to create a PC by starting with a proto-character who can do almost nothing well & adding abilities to that. In other games, you seem to start with a character that can do a many things & define them more my which of those things you choose to do. If that makes any sense. Both methods work, though you can get frustrated if there is too much of a mismatch between the system & how you're trying to do it. I feel that this point bears repeating: When I look back on my favorite PCs, the qualities that make them my favorites have nothing to do with mechanics. ...but I'm not sure that I answered your question. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 04-03-07 07:31 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I agree with Robert. The essence of a Role Playing Game is the characterization...the acting. That has little to do with the mechanics of the character except to indicate parameters in specific situations. The min/maxing, when taken to the extreme are, to me. like a team I faced in fast pitch softball several years ago. They were a Competitive level team that dropped down to "B" League where I was pitching so they could get some wins under their belt. It was a "no win" situation for them. If they won, well, they should have; if they lose, they are humiliated. The fact that they only beat us by 2 runs was tantamount to a loss for them. It's the same thing if you artificially boost your character to the point of being virtually invincible...if you win, well, you should. If you die, you should feel humiliated, and maybe a little stupid. I have run fighters often with 16 or less strength. I ran a thief with a 15 and a cleric with a 14...and those were the best stats I rolled. I require people to roll their stats in front of me when I DM. I have quit using a DMs screen because of whiners and now roll "out in front" for all to see. I let the dice "talk". Min/maxers were and are prevalent in all RPGs, but I feel like the newer versions do more to cater to that mindset, and, I think Min/maxers ultimately cheat themselves, just like that softball team I mentioned did. I happily play with two groups who do 2nd Ed. Of the 8-10 people involved only one or two are what I would call min/maxers, and they are constantly teased about being afraid to "play". Plus, I think they are coming around to the idea of using the stats as they lay to flesh out their characters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 04-06-07 08:11 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? ...but I'm not sure that I answered your question. You certainly have given food for thought. Like you, I generally have an idea about what my character is and then mould it using the rules-system. I don't believe that I've ever said "I'll play a Cleric" (my usual class next to Bard) but rather come up with a concept. I've tried to pass this along to my players and the one constant group that I've had for almost nine years now construct characters in much the same way. When we are playing games that are heavy on the roleplaying (and not necessarily D&D), they'll give me concepts and we'll work out how to fit them in. That said, D&D fits two purposes in my usual gaming experience: 1) It is simple, it is fun. It doesn't call for heavy plot/characterisation but is certainly enjoyable with a group that can bring those elements into play and, 2) It does allow for a decent bit of hack 'n' slash to enter as appropriate. All of my gaming party works full-time, most of us in fairly demanding work and blowing off a little steam is what it is all about. D&D fits the bill. Thanks for all of the input sofar guys. The only sad part of this whole dialogue is that I wouldn't get the chance to game with any of you given the distances involoved. I think we could get a heck of a party out of the people on this forum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : Llwch Date : 04-07-07 10:15 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Thanks for all of the input sofar guys. The only sad part of this whole dialogue is that I wouldn't get the chance to game with any of you given the distances involoved. I think we could get a heck of a party out of the people on this forum. That's what PBeMs are for. F2F gaming is great, but with adult priorities and what not, online gaming is sometimes the only venue available. # of games I played face to face since 1992: 1 # of years longest running F2F game has gone: 2 # of PBeM games I've played or DMed since then: 5 # of years longest running PBeM has been going: 7 (and still going) Give PBeMs a try. They're a hoot (pace is a bit slow, but character development and narrative style is often much better). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 04-07-07 02:48 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I've never played online before, but it might be fun. I also think we would come up with a great party, distance not withstanding. F2F would be terrific but not likely, so I'd give online gaming a try, if you folks have an interest in doing that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : Llwch Date : 04-08-07 09:23 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I've never played online before, but it might be fun. I also think we would come up with a great party, distance not withstanding. F2F would be terrific but not likely, so I'd give online gaming a try, if you folks have an interest in doing that. Sounds great. I'd consider joining, but have too much on my plate to DM... :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : RobertFisher Date : 04-12-07 01:47 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? You certainly have given food for thought. Like you, I generally have an idea about what my character is and then mould it using the rules-system. I don't believe that I've ever said "I'll play a Cleric" (my usual class next to Bard) but rather come up with a concept. I have had memorable PCs that didn't start with a concept. Sometimes I do just say, "I'm going to be a Cleric". But even then, if it becomes memorable, it's the non-mechanical character that developed that makes it memorable. Similarly, I've observed before that--while one could argue that B2 is just a hack-&-slash dungeon-thump--the most interesting part of most of the B2 stories I've heard is things that happened in the Keep! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : adgramaine Date : 04-16-07 08:07 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Of course there are AD&D'ers left. I was recently given a stack of the 1st ed AD&D books that I'd been eye-balling for months. Heck, I'm playing in a 2nd Edition game tonight, matter of fact. Of course, I'd rather play Warhammer FRPG, but who plays that game over here in the states? :allalone: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 04-17-07 03:10 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I understand there is a store in Denver called Attactix that does Warhammer in a big way. A little far to commute for a game, maybe, but they might have leads to people closer to you. And...I think there are actually a lot of AD&Ders out there, quietly and happily role-playing away.:rimshot: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : Llwch Date : 04-17-07 03:55 AM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? I understand there is a store in Denver called Attactix that does Warhammer in a big way. A little far to commute for a game, maybe, but they might have leads to people closer to you. And...I think there are actually a lot of AD&Ders out there, quietly and happily role-playing away.:rimshot: There's also budding AD&Ders too. My kids will "graduate" to 2nd edition once they finish slaughtering the inhabitants of the Caves of Chaos. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : Vrykolas2k Date : 04-17-07 02:52 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Of course there are AD&D'ers left. I was recently given a stack of the 1st ed AD&D books that I'd been eye-balling for months. Heck, I'm playing in a 2nd Edition game tonight, matter of fact. Of course, I'd rather play Warhammer FRPG, but who plays that game over here in the states? :allalone: I do. A slight amount of rule-bending, and I play a Dark Elf noble... everyone THINKS he's another type of elf, of course... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Matthew_ Date : 04-19-07 03:10 PM Thread Title : Re: Offshoot - Are there any ADnDers left? Yeah, as others have said, there are plenty of (A)D&D gamers out there. I don't mind D&D 3.x, but I don't love it either. For short campaigns and one off 'new' prepublished adventures, I quite happily run D&D 3.x and don't mind playing under that ruleset. However, fr my long term Home Brewed Dungeons & Dragons Campaign, I use a House Ruled (A)D&D. I find it a much more open game than 3.x. It is possible to play D&D 3.x and create an (A)D&D feel, but it is a lot more work than just playing (A)D&D. The rules for D&D 3.x are something of a trap. They preach infinite customibility, but in actual fact so many things are now legislated for, characters are in many ways more restricted. Spring Attack is probably the best example. A Player Character who wants to Move, Attack and Move again in (A)D&D doesn't need any special abilities, he just asks the DM if its reasonable (and it probably will be). In D&D 3.x, you need three Feats, and that's just for Melee; if you want to Move, Shoot and Move you need an entirely different string of Feats. Sure, the same scenario can take place, the Player without said Feats can ask his DM if it's reasonable without them and the DM might agree, perhaps imposing an Attack Bonus, but in doing so he undermines the Feat system and this approach is hardly openly endorsed. The tagline for (A)D&D was 'only limited by your imagination'. That is still the case, but it is no longer as obvious as it once was. Customisability? With three starting Feats maximum and a handful of Skill Points? It's a trap! Now on the other hand, I loved the Player's Option Series. It was often contradictory and contained a lot of rubbish, but there were also some great ideas within it and those were the ones that appealed to me. The fact that D&D 3.x has taken over so much from those books (but not some of the best parts) is part of what made me think they were onto a winner when I first opened the 3.0 Player's Handbook. However, once I had read through it, I knew it wasn't the long term edition for me and that was only compounded by the Dungeon Master's Guide. Some good ideas and some bad ideas and once again, I took what I liked (given that I hadn't already seen it) and incorporated it into my House Ruled (A)D&D Campaign and it benefited. In terms of Artwork, I prefer (A)D&D, on the whole, moustaches, eighties perms, horned helmets and all, but that's not to say that there isn't some good 3.x Artwork, as there are some gems. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:15 AM.