The first assumption is that the Ogre Titans are NOT the ancient ogres of the Age of Dreams. I think most people agree that the notion is probably a fabrication on Dauroth's part.
Secondly, I'm assuming that the Irda aren't exactly like the ancient ogres either. Years spent in isolation took its toll on their constitutions. The same goes for their spell-like abilities, like their shape-changing abilities and spell-like powers (either developed to aid in keeping them from being discovered by outsiders, or as I read somewhere, granted as a gift from Mishakal.)
Now, with those two assumptions in place, I'm wondering what people actually think the Original Ogres were like. I'm talking about physical description (any differences from how the modern day Irda look?), ability score adjustments, and special abilities.
My current take on them would be that they look pretty much like the current irda with skin color ranging from midnight to sky blue. They were probably a little bulkier/muscled and had sharp teeth (like the Titans. The Irda became strict vegetarians, so their teeth eventually became blunt.)
Ability score adjustments would be something like +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha (like the Drow of other worlds, they're really good-looking but tend to be jerks.) I'm also considering a +2 str and -2 wis but I prefer to keep the stat adjustments to a minimum.
They wouldn't have the shape-shifting but they might keep the other spell-like abilities (dancing lights, detect magic, etc.)
Favored class would most likely be sorcerer.
Anyways, this isn't by any means complete, I was just curious as to how other people saw things. And just in case WotC (or TSR) actually did an official version, I'd like to know what product it appeared in. Thanks.:D
The humans just rebelled agaisnt ogres and if it helps you, thats what i get from the book :
They are about 6-8 feet tall, skin like irda, some good muscles, basic innate magic, but only the nobles can use magic. They must learn it. They are very good looking.
Anyway, for more understanding, read the book =)
XIII
I would say that the Irda are much more powerful in magic than the High Ogre, simply because they've had all the time in the world to focus on their studies (at least the ones who spent most of their time back home).
More Str and Con, but otherwise I'd keep the ability scores about the same as what the Irda have.
Take an ogre mage, clean him up a little, and there you go.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Take an ogre mage, clean him up a little, and there you go.
Cheers,
Cam
A little?! Clean him up a lot I would say. After all Ogre mages are still degenerate old high ogres, just less so than common ogres.
I would say remove one of the ogre mage's HD, and some of the more powerfull magic abilities, such as cloud form and invisibility.
Originally posted by Halabis
A little?! Clean him up a lot I would say. After all Ogre mages are still degenerate old high ogres, just less so than common ogres.
Right. They're clearly throwbacks to what the ogres once were, but they're not pretty. It does give you a pretty good baseline to work from, though.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Right. They're clearly throwbacks to what the ogres once were, but they're not pretty. It does give you a pretty good baseline to work from, though.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, they are basically normal ogres. They are big, hulking, and aren't quite pretty. They differ in that they are blue skinned, extremely intelligent, horned, and they actually make an attempt at looking good. Unlike regular ogres, ogre magi dress in extravagent clothing, wash themselves regularly, brush their hair, etc. If it weren't for the fact that they are still pretty ugly(the ogre magi in the 3.5e MM isn't a real prom date), I would say that they differ little from the original ogres. Think of it kinda like this, there are various types of "evils" out there. Some distort your mind, some your body, and others both. The run-of-the-mill ogre has been cursed to have had its evil corrupt its mind and body, while the ogre magi has only had its body corrupted.
I think I am done cursing the world with my mindless jabbering :D
Rise of the Titans deals with Dauroth's hagiographical story about the Ogre subspecies. In total, (in addition to the Ogres) these are the hags, the giants, the ogre-magi, the ettins, and the trolls. Basically, everything that is big and nasty.
Now the fallen state of all these creatures have been blamed on by Dauroth on the Curse of Paladine. Was it a curse of Paladine (and if so, what is the result now that Paladine is no longer a diety?) Was it a curse of Takhisis? The passing of the greygem? The Sword of Tears? The retreat to barbarism and savagery that their own evil and selfish natures ensured? If the last, then that means that the Irda are in fact a lot smaller than the High Ogres were.
What about the Trolls, Ettins, and Giants? Are they ogre-kin, or not?
Originally posted by ferratus
What about the Trolls, Ettins, and Giants? Are they ogre-kin, or not?
Yes.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
What about the Trolls, Ettins, and Giants? Are they ogre-kin, or not?
Oh yes, yes...very much. But don't forget the Cyclopes, hags, and...uh...aren't I forgetting one?
Ah well, and as for giants...I'm not sure there are really anything more than just Hill Giants (in the giants category)...If there is...then they are very reclusive and rarely seen by anyone.
Originally posted by talinthas
well, there was that dragon issue with Giants of Krynn, by the same dude who wrote Rise of the Titans..
I've heard rumor of that article. Never seen it though.
When was it written? Is there ever a possibility of getting a copy of that article somewhere?
Cave Lords: Basically giant goblins. I use the Barghests in the MM as their equivelant.
Earth Giants: Free-willed earth elementals.
Desolation Giants: Humans in Malystryx's service who became large, deformed and angry.
There was probably a couple more, but I can't remember them.
That's cool.
Originally posted by Orodruin
Hi, I know this has been discussed a number of times before, but I'd like to start this off with a few assumptions:
The first assumption is that the Ogre Titans are NOT the ancient ogres of the Age of Dreams. I think most people agree that the notion is probably a fabrication on Dauroth's part.
Secondly, I'm assuming that the Irda aren't exactly like the ancient ogres either. Years spent in isolation took its toll on their constitutions. The same goes for their spell-like abilities, like their shape-changing abilities and spell-like powers (either developed to aid in keeping them from being discovered by outsiders, or as I read somewhere, granted as a gift from Mishakal.)
Now, with those two assumptions in place, I'm wondering what people actually think the Original Ogres were like. I'm talking about physical description (any differences from how the modern day Irda look?), ability score adjustments, and special abilities.
My current take on them would be that they look pretty much like the current irda with skin color ranging from midnight to sky blue. They were probably a little bulkier/muscled and had sharp teeth (like the Titans. The Irda became strict vegetarians, so their teeth eventually became blunt.)
Ability score adjustments would be something like +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha (like the Drow of other worlds, they're really good-looking but tend to be jerks.) I'm also considering a +2 str and -2 wis but I prefer to keep the stat adjustments to a minimum.
They wouldn't have the shape-shifting but they might keep the other spell-like abilities (dancing lights, detect magic, etc.)
Favored class would most likely be sorcerer.
Anyways, this isn't by any means complete, I was just curious as to how other people saw things. And just in case WotC (or TSR) actually did an official version, I'd like to know what product it appeared in. Thanks.:D
I'll point out a few things. Although the novels mentioned that possibly the Irda gained their powers to shapechange via Mishakal, there are some indicators that perhaps shapechanging abilities may lie within the main High Ogre line....
Afterall, ogre magi, who are not degenerated as badly, with regards to intelligence, as normal ogres, and retain magic ability, have the ability to polymorph self.
And there is another breed of surviving High Ogres. The Nzunta. They rest upon the Isle Fedron in the Dragon Isles, I believe....and they're nasty. Very similar to the Irda, but with a *severe* mean streak. And they are also powerful wizards (Black Robes) with powerful shapechanging abilities.
In the Dragonlance campaign I used to run, there was a Nzunta Black Robe who was a major antagonist. Of course, nobody realized he was a Nzunta, as he walked around in human form.
The Nzunta are not Irda that went evil, so Mishakal didn't give them the ability, and then have some Irda go back to evil. The Nzunta were evil from the start. They just avoided the curse by weeding out members that were born with the degenerate birth defects of normal ogres. They kill like 99% of their children, and keep the 1% that are still pure High Ogres. As a result, they are very small in number...something like 300 or so on the entire planet.
The novel "The Irda" seemed to indicate that the High Ogres were very reliant upon music. Yes, magic was restricted to nobles...but this is like the restriction of the Silvanesti.....others could use it...there was no hard and fast restriction. It just wasn't permitted, so you'd be risking your life to practice it if you weren't a noble.
And additionally, it mentions in the novels that High Ogre wizards weren't restricted in the same way as humans were. I think it mentions that they didn't have to memorize their spells. I *do* know that it mentions they don't rely on material components. So, they'd get the Eschew Material Components feat for free.
I'd tend to agree with giving them sharp teeth. For that matter, I'd be tempted to say that the Irda also have sharp teeth. They may be beautiful, but they are still descended from a race that is the epitome of evil on Krynn. And they've only been separated from the main ogre line for what, 8000 years? That wouldn't be enough time to evolve away from pointed teeth....unless they did it magically.
I could see the Irda having a natural form that's like their current one, but has pointed teeth and is more evil/predatory in appearance than the pretty/blue skinned forms they use....but given they are natural shapechangers, they hide their teeth etc.
I would give them higher strength scores and con as well. They are supposed to be very strong, yet beautiful at the same time. They'd likely be a very high EL race.
Banshee
Perhaps give them sorcerer for nobles and something else for non-nobles for favoured classes? What would really fit for the commoners? Fighter, perhaps?
I'm also not sure about giving the High Ogres free spell like abilities or anything, pretty much for the same reasons as given above. Most ogres simply never did any magic, or else they'd've been killed or something.
If the High Ogres have sorcerer as a favored class, it should reflect that the race has an innate talent for wielding the primal energies of Krynn. You'll note, however, that for much of the existence of the High Ogre civilizations, magic simply wasn't around in a state that could be used by mortals - their civilization falls before the Greygem is brought to Krynn by Hiddukel's gnome dupe and thus wild magic is yet to appear. Thus, unless the ogres have innate magical talents, none of them were sorcerers or wizards.
Cheers,
Cam
Still, it was just an idea.
Originally posted by pddisc
I always thought of the favoured class thing as a society-implemented structure. Since the High Ogres wouldn't allow anyone but a noble to practise magic, all the other High Ogres would had to have done something, so I'm not sure about sorcerer as favoured class. High Ogres had the capacity to do magic, and some more so than others (just as with other races), but they only learnt through wizardry because that was the only way the non-nobles could learn. When they discovered that it was easier and more powerful to do through sorcery, they'd do it that way instead.
Perhaps give them sorcerer for nobles and something else for non-nobles for favoured classes? What would really fit for the commoners? Fighter, perhaps?
I'm also not sure about giving the High Ogres free spell like abilities or anything, pretty much for the same reasons as given above. Most ogres simply never did any magic, or else they'd've been killed or something.
Well, I don't think there would be a break. The High Ogres are described as having magic in the blood, and being very powerful. But those who were not nobles were not allowed to practice it. I'd have to read "The Irda" again, but *I think* that they were allowed to use minor magics etc. Magic came freely to them.
I've said before that I thought that Irda should have sorcerer as a favoured class. As described, they are very powerful, and magic comes naturally to them. Of course, sorcery doesn't work the same way in Krynn......but Dragons are an example of a race with innate power, and they have levels in sorcerer, so I figure High Ogres would be the same way.
I think spell-like abilities are fine. I was actually thinking of a new feat, useable by Irda or High Ogres.
Basically, it is only available at lvl 1, and results in the Irda/High Ogre losing all innate spell abilities (except for shapechanging), and in turn gaining +1 to his spellcaster level (ie. spell power, spells/day, etc.).
So, an Irda or High Ogre wizard 1 who takes has the spells/day, and casts spells as a lvl 2 wizard. But he loses his innate spells.
This might simulate the 2nd Ed. rule that Irda gained an extra spell of their highest level.
Banshee
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Favored class might have some basis in social customs, but it's really supposed to represent what that particular race has the strongest aptitude in regardless of their social status. Silvanesti elves have a racial aptitude for wizardry, even though many of them never cast a spell in their lives. Dwarves are just well-suited for combat and martial training, although this doesn't stop one from being a pacifist.
If the High Ogres have sorcerer as a favored class, it should reflect that the race has an innate talent for wielding the primal energies of Krynn. You'll note, however, that for much of the existence of the High Ogre civilizations, magic simply wasn't around in a state that could be used by mortals - their civilization falls before the Greygem is brought to Krynn by Hiddukel's gnome dupe and thus wild magic is yet to appear. Thus, unless the ogres have innate magical talents, none of them were sorcerers or wizards.
Cheers,
Cam
I guess the novel "The Irda" doesn't exactly agree with this.
In that novel, the ogres had very powerful magic. And it refers even to humans having magic, and how different ogre magic was from human or elven magic. The main character in the novel is a wizard who doesn't need to memorize spells or use material components. And she's quite powerful. And she becomes one of the first Irda.
Of course, this is a problem with Dragonlance. The history and "rules" of the world have been redefined so many times, it's causing a lot of troubles with continuity.
Elven height being another simple example of this.
An interesting concept in Dragonlance for an NPC would be an ancient High Ogre who was subjected to some form of spell like Imprisonment, and has been "on ice" for the last 8000 years. A wizard in the Age of Mortals accidentally releases him. He would be very powerful, intelligent, and fundamentally different in nature from current races on Krynn. What would he be like? What would he do?
Banshee
Originally posted by pddisc
Then it's a question of whether they have an innate magical ability represented by only having a very few abilities, which would be spell like, and because of the ambient magc affecting them for some reason, or if they can advance of sorcerers because Takhisis made them in such a way as to be able to shape the primal magic how they chose. The difference is that spell likes are the same for the entire race, and they can't advance in their powers, and sorcerer means they are likely to advance, but only a selection of them are ever going to take it as a class. I would say that sorcerer is a better fit than spell like abilities, and that spell like abilties wouldn't be practised by the vast percentage of the High Ogre race anyway, so there wouldn't seem much point giving them any. Most wouldn't know what to do with them anyway.
Still, it was just an idea.
I think there's a certain basis for what you're saying. The dragons have been sorcerers throughout the history of Krynn, having "magic in the blood". Although this isn't the standard explanation for sorcerers in the game, I don't see why one race, which is repeatedly described as being highly magical, couldn't also have "magic in the blood".
It could be that 95% of sorcerers are people who have figured out how to manipulate primal magic. But maybe the other 5% are dragons, high ogres (irda), half-faeries, faeries, etc. who have magic as part of their racial makeup.
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
But maybe the other 5% are dragons, high ogres (irda), half-faeries, faeries, etc. who have magic as part of their racial makeup.
It's not so much "in the blood" as it is a quality of those races being different from mortals, who are only able to access ambient magic when Chaos has tainted it. Dragons aren't like the mortal races, even though they themselves are mortal - they're essentially capable of drawing power from the world to cast spells without Chaos' influence.
In other words, "innately magical" means "innately capable of accessing the magical power present in the world", so to speak. If you cut one open, magic doesn't leak out.
Cheers,
Cam
If we want it to make sense, we have three options:
1) The elves have the innate talent for mysticism during the early age of dreams (given their telepathy, and command over plants and animals) while ogres have an innate command of arcane sorcery. The humans on the other hand, do not have an innate mastery of either. That balances everything out nicely.
2) Ogres have claimed places where ambient magic has pooled, giving them places where they can access sorcery.
3) We retcon the spellcasting ability of the ogres, because it was just a minor, minor novel.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's not so much "in the blood" as it is a quality of those races being different from mortals, who are only able to access ambient magic when Chaos has tainted it. Dragons aren't like the mortal races, even though they themselves are mortal - they're essentially capable of drawing power from the world to cast spells without Chaos' influence.
In other words, "innately magical" means "innately capable of accessing the magical power present in the world", so to speak. If you cut one open, magic doesn't leak out.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, I wasn't intending to say that they were like a maple tree.....stick a tap in the High Ogre and get liquid magic oozing out
More that they were innately magical, as dragons were. Although Ogres were one of the three main races, unlike humans or elves, Ogres were *not* mortal. They were "blessed with beauty, intelligence, and immortality". So I don't think they fit under the same rules.
Hence, I'd generally say that the ogres had the ability to tap the power of the world to cast magic, as the dragons did.
Ogres being intensely magical doesn't just go back to "The Irda" novel. It's talked about as far back as Dragonlance Adventures, the first DL hardcover. I remember reading it and thinking it was so cool, because stereotypically ogres have been these huge, messy, stupid, slobbery brutes.
Maybe this translates to a fundamental difference. Yes, elves are magical...but they are good at magic because they like tinkering with it. Ogres, however, have a racial ability (as do dragons) to call upon the magic of the planet, without Chaos' influence.
In some ways, it's a horrible tragedy for the race of ogres, because they've been twisted so much from what they were that they no longer have these abilities that used to be widespread among them.
On a side-note. Elven telepathy is talked about in the novels. But it's never deal with in game rules. Would this be something appropriate to have as a Feat restricted to elves? Or is it just a spell that elves don't teach anyone but other elves?
Banshee
Banshee
Originally posted by ferratus
The main question though, is why the Ogres were able to cast magic, and not humans or elves. This isn't a greygem spawned race like the various fey or magical beasts, this is one of the three progenitor races.
If we want it to make sense, we have three options:
1) The elves have the innate talent for mysticism during the early age of dreams (given their telepathy, and command over plants and animals) while ogres have an innate command of arcane sorcery. The humans on the other hand, do not have an innate mastery of either. That balances everything out nicely.
Ferratus, I think that's an interesting take. During those days, the humans really didn't have much command of magic at all....most were still basically barbarians. Wasn't that one reason the ogres enslaved them instead of the elves?
3) We retcon the spellcasting ability of the ogres, because it was just a minor, minor novel. [/b]
Personally I wouldn't do that, as there are references to that in books other than "The Irda".
Dragonlance is particularly convoluted, because new authors (and even Hickman and Weis) have gone back and added things over the fact....more detail and such, which sometimes contravenes things that have been written before. So what's the truth?
Then there's the difference between novels and games.
The Irda are described as long-lived, moreso than the elves. But that's in "Raistlin's Daughter", so it's claimed to be false. But then the RPG material says they live about 500 years. But the 3E DLCS says that Irda are subject to the Valin. And the only source for the Valin is the story "Raistlin's Daughter", which is explained away as a fallacy.
Another example is elves. Their height. They are described in the novels as being taller than humans. This is pretty consistent. The only elves in the novels are all tall, but not described as being abnormal. In fact, they are somewhat regular. According to the history of Krynn, many of the main elves they talk about in history lived from 1200-2000 years.
At the time the setting was being created, it was 1st Ed. Elves *were* tall at that time, *and* their lifespans ranged from 1500-2000 years. So the novels and game history were based on that.
Then, 2nd Ed. comes out, and the game rules for elves in the PHB change, so that now a tall elf is 5'5"...that's their max height. And their max lifespan is 750 years, with an average of about 550. And those PHB changes were integrated into Dragonlance gaming, because either the designers were lazy, or they wanted to stay with the core rules.
So now, Sithel, Sithas, and Kith-Kanan were all freaks....taller, and living twice as long as normal. And Laurana, Gilthanas, and Porthios were all freaks as well, because they were way taller than normal.
And these errors or discrepancies have crept into 3E now. The racial charts that have been created for elves and Irda etc. don't support what's been written into the setting from its inception.
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
At the time the setting was being created, it was 1st Ed. Elves *were* tall at that time, *and* their lifespans ranged from 1500-2000 years. So the novels and game history were based on that.
Actually, they weren't! Elves were shorter than humans since the beginning. There's a particularly memorable illustration in the 1st edition AD&D Players Handbook with a whimsical elf maiden and her magic wand standing next to a helmed dwarf, a burly fighter with a Norman helmet, a half-orc with a grin, a very short gnome, and a halfling.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Actually, they weren't! Elves were shorter than humans since the beginning. There's a particularly memorable illustration in the 1st edition AD&D Players Handbook with a whimsical elf maiden and her magic wand standing next to a helmed dwarf, a burly fighter with a Norman helmet, a half-orc with a grin, a very short gnome, and a halfling.
Cheers,
Cam
Hmm.....I no longer have a 1st Ed. DMG, but I don't remember it being like that. I might be a bit foggy on it though. But I do have the original Unearthed Arcana, and it had charts for Drow. Maybe I should take a look at that.
If this is the case, then Dragonlance gaming was setting a precendent from the beginning, with Gilthanas, Laurana, and Porthios all being tall.
I know that in 2nd Ed. at least, elven women were notably shorter than the men....by like a foot.
I won't fight on that part of the issue, as I no longer have the book....though I do have the age charts photocopied (I know, I know....but I was like 12 at the time, and didn't know better). The ages were correct.....they were far longer than in 2nd Ed.
Dargonesti even in 2nd Ed. Dragonlance products had a longer lifespan. In "Otherlands", they are listed as living about 2000 years. They suffered a -1 to each physical ability score for each 500 years of life.
Banshee
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Actually, they weren't! Elves were shorter than humans since the beginning. There's a particularly memorable illustration in the 1st edition AD&D Players Handbook with a whimsical elf maiden and her magic wand standing next to a helmed dwarf, a burly fighter with a Norman helmet, a half-orc with a grin, a very short gnome, and a halfling.
Cheers,
Cam
Cam's right about this one. D&D has always described elves as short. Dragonlance has always described them as tall and thin in the novels. However the Dragonlance RPG sourcebooks have always listed elven height as 5'5 or less. I had truly hoped this inconsistency would be fixed in 3e Dragonlance.
Porthios is described as being 6', Laurana as 5'6, Gilthanas as 5'8, and Serinda Elderwood as 5'9 (9" taller than the max for elven women!)
That information is all contained in their character cards in Tales of the Lance. So unless all the elves we read about are freaks with severe pituitary disorders, The writers of Dragonlance gaming material should fix the rules for elven height in future printings.
Originally posted by Taskr36
Cam's right about this one. D&D has always described elves as short. Dragonlance has always described them as tall and thin in the novels. However the Dragonlance RPG sourcebooks have always listed elven height as 5'5 or less. I had truly hoped this inconsistency would be fixed in 3e Dragonlance.
Porthios is described as being 6', Laurana as 5'6, Gilthanas as 5'8, and Serinda Elderwood as 5'9 (9" taller than the max for elven women!)
That information is all contained in their character cards in Tales of the Lance. So unless all the elves we read about are freaks with severe pituitary disorders, The writers of Dragonlance gaming material should fix the rules for elven height in future printings.
That's all I ask. Perhaps, given that the stats we've seen so far were on that Tobril issue, nothing's official yet. Maybe SP can include height and age charts, corrected for Dragonlance, with an upcoming product.
Dragonlance elves have longer lifespans, and are taller than those in the PHB. I don't see the problem. Heck, the elves of Cerilia (Birthright) were immortal, and that was in the core rules for the setting. I don't know what Dragonlance can't have its races different as well.
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
Ferratus, I think that's an interesting take. During those days, the humans really didn't have much command of magic at all....most were still basically barbarians. Wasn't that one reason the ogres enslaved them instead of the elves?
Yep, plus I'm thinking about the Brown Hoods led by Vedivisca. They controlled something that was called by the bronze dragon Duranix "spirit power". Seemingly, it involved a lot of necromancy, making plants grow freakishly wild, and a whole bunch of effects that resembled 5th Age mysticism.