Originally posted by Richard Connery
I think you're making an unfair comparison. Individual kender wouldn't feel discriminated because the "ban" was on the entire race. They're used to not being allowing into towns, the Conclave is just another one. And kender (renegades) would be more successful than other races at avoiding any conclave bounty hunters (or however they catch renegades).
Originally posted by ferratus
Yep, and when they are caught they aren't given a choice to join the conclave's ranks like other wizards, they are instead murdered in cold blood or have the magic ripped from them. Not because of anything the kender did, but because of race.
No one ever said the Conclave was the perfect moral beacon of Ansalon. White robes are not saints, their obligation is towards magic, not goodness. They will avoid violence and destruction, they will help the fellow man. But they are humans (elves, whatever) and share the same flaws of "regular" humans (elves, whatever) so they _will_ discriminate kender.
I'm not driving a wedge into anything. I'm pointing out a huge plothole in the setting. Black Robes cause suffering, destruction and misery as they need to, to further their own power. To do otherwise is to turn the black robes into goth poseurs and strip them of their evil alignments. Obviously then physical destruction is not the true danger. Using magic tainted by chaos (as renegades and sorcerers do) is.
The plothole only exists because you disagree with the Conclave. But that shouldn't make you look away from some of the morally abject things. If we did that everyone in the setting would be a LG Paladin (or whatever your role model is).
This is interesting because I don't even think about kender in terms of what Tas does anymore. I've basically distilled the kender personality down to childlike curiousity, fearlessness, a sense of adventure, innocence, and naiveté .
And you distilled that from Tas's (among other kender characters) actions.
The actions of the kender itself simply grow out of these emotional impulses. I've gone from the stereotype to the archetype to handle not only the wizard, but the raging barbarian, the stealthy woodswise ranger, the hippy druid, the devout cleric and the steadfast fighter.
That's (almost) a good in-character defense of kender on the part of a white robe. Like I said above, the conclave are still human. Just like flaws, they can also learn to shed away them and recognize the goodness in everyone, even kender.
That and I am so sick to death of Tasselhoff's gags that I'm starting to gag myself whenever I see them. If I see another kleptomania joke it will be all too soon. [/b]
Heh, I know what you mean. When I was reading WoS trilogy I occasionally felt Tas's behaviour was contrived into making those gags.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
No one ever said the Conclave was the perfect moral beacon of Ansalon. White robes are not saints, their obligation is towards magic, not goodness.
If this were true, then why do we bother having orders aligned by robes at all? I say you're wrong, and that a white robe is devoted to goodness as well as magic, for only in having good soul does a white robe realize the full potential of his magic. If a white robe strays from goodness and chooses evil actions then he stops being able to commune with the source of good magic.
They will avoid violence and destruction, they will help the fellow man. But they are humans (elves, whatever) and share the same flaws of "regular" humans (elves, whatever) so they _will_ discriminate kender.
I'm not really seeing why I should be forced to play a bigot in order to be a white robe. It starts making them look a little like another organization that wears white robes, especially since they lynch certain races for daring to have the same priveledges they do.
The plothole only exists because you disagree with the Conclave.
No, the plothole exists because black robes create armies of monsters, raise undead, summon fiends, and lay waste to entire cities and nations leaving a path of destruction and misery in their wake, simply because it suits their own ambitions. They use magic to destroy, that is simply the way of things. Therefore saying the conclave seeks to prevent the destructive power of magic, or that they don't allow kender to become wizards because they do not trust them to not use their power destructively is just ridiculous. If this concept were true, the black robes would not be part of the WoHS.
Besides, like I said, I don't see why I shouldn't allow kender to wield magic if I trust them with edged weapons. It isn't like the kender are insane.
But that shouldn't make you look away from some of the morally abject things. If we did that everyone in the setting would be a LG Paladin (or whatever your role model is).
Ah, that's just it. The white robes are the paladins of magic, while the Black Robes are the blackguards. The red robes put the magic first and the world second. Otherwise, what is the point of having orders based on alignment?
Originally posted by ferratus
If this were true, then why do we bother having orders aligned by robes at all? I say you're wrong, and that a white robe is devoted to goodness as well as magic, for only in having good soul does a white robe realize the full potential of his magic. If a white robe strays from goodness and chooses evil actions then he stops being able to commune with the source of good magic.
That's a paladin (trust me, that's the only class I play --- when I play ). Any other good character can lie, and can certainly be selfish. It can even be greedy.
I'm not really seeing why I should be forced to play a bigot in order to be a white robe. It starts making them look a little like another organization that wears white robes, especially since they lynch certain races for daring to have the same priveledges they do.
You don't believe every member of such organization is a hellspawn do you? Same with the nazi party. People will join the most morally reprehensible movements because of circumstances. Despair, misguided loyalties or just plain peer presure will do that. You don't believe every street punk in the world today should be drawn out and shot (do you?).
So what if white robes believe that if an innocent gets killed to protect magic, it's all for the greater good of the conclave? They probably would think hard about letting a kender loose in Wayreth tower and subsequently obliterate it just because that magic ring looked interesting.
No, the plothole exists because black robes create armies of monsters, raise undead, summon fiends, and lay waste to entire cities and nations leaving a path of destruction and misery in their wake, simply because it suits their own ambitions. They use magic to destroy, that is simply the way of things.
Actually, not really. Where are the examples of this? Sure, Fistandantilus had some crazy schemes, that's why he was later (almost) branded a renegade. All the material in all the DL books talking about the conclave explicitly say black robes do not indulge in acts of wantom destruction --- that's detrimental to magic as a whole --- the thought of another kingpriest would more than rein in their ambitions, if you don't beleive fielty to the conclave would.
Besides, like I said, I don't see why I shouldn't allow kender to wield magic if I trust them with edged weapons. It isn't like the kender are insane.
A sword can kill one man in one round, a fireball can kill half a dozen. And there's none to trust kender with edged weapons anyway. There's no Martial Conclave who administers Tests for 5th level Fighters anyway. kender get weapons because they can buy/find/make them, not because any sane person would want to be around an armed kender.
Ah, that's just it. The white robes are the paladins of magic, while the Black Robes are the blackguards. The red robes put the magic first and the world second. Otherwise, what is the point of having orders based on alignment? [/b]
I think your view of the Conclave has too much contrast. We know Par-salian, and most illustrious head of the white robes sent crysania to die. We know (see above) black robes don't just fireball every single person they see. They all put magic in front of everything. That is the crux of the matter. When Raistlin turned to the Dark Side (oh boy) he didn't suddendly prefer destruction to magic.
But I guess we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this. (don't you hate when that happens? ;) )
Originally posted by Richard Connery
That's a paladin (trust me, that's the only class I play --- when I play ). Any other good character can lie, and can certainly be selfish. It can even be greedy.
No that's a white robed wizard. When they preform evil actions they lose the connection to the cycles of the moons until they embrace one of the other two dieties of magic, probably Nuitari.
You don't believe every member of such organization is a hellspawn do you? Same with the nazi party. People will join the most morally reprehensible movements because of circumstances. Despair, misguided loyalties or just plain peer presure will do that. You don't believe every street punk in the world today should be drawn out and shot (do you?).
I find this an interesting twist around. I do not beleive that every single person who belongs to an evil organization is evil... but I believe the organization as a whole is evil, and that every person who belongs to such an organization is supporting an evil organization. I just don't want to view the white robes that way. I want to think of them as good men and women, not as evil murderers and bigots. Yeah, having kender wizards in the conclave would be a bit problematic, and cause quite a few headaches. However, it is the white robe's duty to have reverence for life and to see magic flourish in the world. He cannot take the easy way out. Black Robes have it easier though... "You, my uncle, would have simply killed him," Palin murmured.
So what if white robes believe that if an innocent gets killed to protect magic, it's all for the greater good of the conclave? They probably would think hard about letting a kender loose in Wayreth tower and subsequently obliterate it just because that magic ring looked interesting.
See I have no problem with hard choices, but when there is a choice to make you shouldn't take the easy way out. The ends simply do not justify the means in any ethical system, not even utilitarianism. (Utilitarianism holds that evil almost actions will always lead to evil consequences).
As far as I know, a ring can look interesting to just about anybody, which is why you don't let the uninitiated wander around the Tower if you're smart. Heck, I'm human but I'd probably wander around the Tower if I got bored in the room I was given. That's what command words are for, and why spells are encoded so you cannot cast them until you understand them.
Actually, not really. Where are the examples of this? Sure, Fistandantilus had some crazy schemes, that's why he was later (almost) branded a renegade. All the material in all the DL books talking about the conclave explicitly say black robes do not indulge in acts of wantom destruction --- that's detrimental to magic as a whole --- the thought of another kingpriest would more than rein in their ambitions, if you don't beleive fielty to the conclave would.
They do things like create draconians (Dracart), suck the lifeforce out people (Gadar), ride with the dragonarmies (pretty much everybody) and club baby seals. Those are your examples.
The black robes don't do anything to threaten their magic, but they sure as hell destroy with their magic when it suits their purpose. If kender caused wild magic zones or magic dead areas when they wielded magic due to their graygem blood, maybe we'd have something. Perhaps that's what happened when the Scions imprisoned the dragon armies of the 2nd dragon war in the dragon stones. They burned up all the ambient magic.
A sword can kill one man in one round, a fireball can kill half a dozen. And there's none to trust kender with edged weapons anyway. There's no Martial Conclave who administers Tests for 5th level Fighters anyway. kender get weapons because they can buy/find/make them, not because any sane person would want to be around an armed kender.
I would fear an armed kender a lot less than I would a human stranger. A kender might strike at me if he feels genuinely threatened, but he doesn't go around giggling and stabbing people with it unless he's insane. Something far more likely to happen btw, if he isn't trained in magic and the magic consumes him.
See, the way I see it, magic talent is innate. It can either find expression as a wizard through the mysteries of the moon gods, or through trial and experimentation through sorcery. If properly trained how to use it, it becomes as natural to you as breathing and speaking. If you are not properly trained, it grows unchecked freakishly, deforming your mind, body and soul and may in the end consume you. I consider that kender 10x the threat than a WoHS.
[b]
I think your view of the Conclave has too much contrast. We know Par-salian, and most illustrious head of the white robes sent crysania to die.
[b]Yes, and like a good Paladin he wept about the horrible thing he was doing.
We know (see above) black robes don't just fireball every single person they see.
Nope, but you are describing the actions of an insane person, not an evil one. Evil men don't go around shooting everything they see either.
But oh well, agree to disagree.
