Variations of Advanced Beings - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Variations of Advanced Beings

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jaanos
Jan 17, 2004 18:48:59 It has occured to me, reviewing some of the old 2e material that there a couple of... variations... possible in terms of advanced beings.

For example, a Necromancer who makes it 20th level, is human or half-elf, then makes it to 20th level as a Psion as the potential to become a dragon... but a NECROMANTIC DRAGON.

Likewise, a shadow mage, could theoretically reach 20th level, make the switch to psionics and become a SHADOW DRAGON.

Now the really weird bit is this - Necromancers and Shadow Mages who retain thier Preserver Status.

Grey Avignons, Shadow Avignons anyone?

In 2e, those specilised kits didn't preclude becoming an Avignon or Dragon once the other prerequsities were met... i wanted to get people thoughts on in DS3.0/3.5 advanced beings.

Various models have been proposed. My belief is that it should be as close as possible to the 2e method (20/20) with provisions for Pyschic Warriors to become Dragons. I also think that any character that has levels as a shadow mage or necromancer should be able to advance on and become a variation of an advanced being...

Also, thoughts on how to handle elemental clerics.
#2
zombiegleemax
Jan 17, 2004 22:24:06 I rather like the idea, but I would personally not want to be the one to implement it
#3
Kamelion
Jan 18, 2004 1:25:35 There is some precedence for variant advanced beings in the Prism Pentad, where the sorcerer-kings are often depicted as looking different to one another, following differing paths to transformation etc. I was really struck by this when reading it and wondered why it was never reflected in the rpg material - it seems like such a rich idea. Mach made a nice point in another thread about the nature of an advanced being stemming from the nature of its own soul or somesuch. I'd say that your suggestions are very interesting and could bear fleshing out.

It raises one question with me, though. I have the feeling (nothing more) that avangions and dragons are intimately linked to athas' life energy (chiefly through their spellcasting). The transformation into a dragon or avangion represents the pinnacle of magical interaction with that lifeforce. Necromants and Shadow Wizards don't use that connection anymore in their spellcasting (are they really still preservers? Aren't they something else now, outside of the defiler/preserver categories?) My question is why should wizards with no firm magical connection to this lifeforce be able to transform into dragons or avangions - a transformation that is ultimately symbolic of one's connection to that lifeforce? I would suggest that they would become a different sort of advanced being altogether. A Necromant might wind up as some sort of advnaced undead, and a Shadow Wizard might become a powerful creature of the Black.

A more comprehensive list of types of advanced beings might include dragons, avangions, elementals, spirits of the land, ruvoka and pyreen alongside the additional types you suggest. It would be good to see a broad set of options that allow this kind of diversity in a 3e game.
#4
jaanos
Jan 18, 2004 2:35:27 Thanks for the feedback. OK, firstly, in 2e if shadow mages and necromancers were cut off from the black / grey, they could still power spells via defiling or preserver magic. They are still tied to the life-force of athas in that way. Also, the grey is a some-what unique demi-plane that is also intimatley tied to the life force of athas. It contains the souls (most intimate form of life-force?) of athas's recently (and not-so-recently) deceased.

The black "seperates everything that is from everything that isn't" and again, has properites that while similar to the traditional shadow plane are unique to athas. I allways saw cereculean mages, shadow mages and necromaners as simply being mages that had TWO energy sources available to them, with a preference to the alternative energy source. Perhaps the REASON dregoth came back was that he WAS a necromancer, one of the first ever mages to become tied to the grey - that's why he came back. Just an idle thought. No evidence, but fits nicely.

Originally posted by Kamelion

The transformation into a dragon or avangion represents the pinnacle of magical interaction with that lifeforce. Necromants and Shadow Wizards don't use that connection anymore in their spellcasting (are they really still preservers? Aren't they something else now, outside of the defiler/preserver categories?) My question is why should wizards with no firm magical connection to this lifeforce be able to transform into dragons or avangions - a transformation that is ultimately symbolic of one's connection to that lifeforce? I would suggest that they would become a different sort of advanced being altogether. A Necromant might wind up as some sort of advnaced undead, and a Shadow Wizard might become a powerful creature of the Black.

.

#5
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jan 18, 2004 3:01:51 Yet another reason you don't include specific class/level requirements to a PrC, but rather use other requirements. Like "Able to cast 9th level Arcane Spells", which a Shadow Wizard or a Necromant PrC could be able to do.
#6
jaanos
Jan 18, 2004 17:42:51
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Yet another reason you don't include specific class/level requirements to a PrC, but rather use other requirements. Like "Able to cast 9th level Arcane Spells", which a Shadow Wizard or a Necromant PrC could be able to do.

Good point. I'm really excited about this concept... hmm... that's it, i've settled on in - my new arch-nemisis in the new darksun campain i'm going to start DM-ing in a couple of weeks will be a Grey Dragon, 1st stage of metamorphis.

Once i finish his stats, i'll write them up.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 22, 2004 12:11:54 It says in the old 2e Dragon Kings supplement that each dragon and avangion and character elemental looked different from all others. So sure!, each advanced being can be customized in this way.

--one of my players wants to become a fiery avangion NB
#8
zombiegleemax
Jan 22, 2004 13:52:13
--one of my players wants to become a fiery avangion

#9
jaanos
Jan 22, 2004 19:50:34 A fiery avignon? hmm....

2e rules sorta hinted strongly that specilist mages didn't exist on athas, even the necromancer had special skills with the undead and was tied to the grey, wasn't actually a specialist in the traditional sense.

A FIRE avignon.... i suppose under 3e, he could specilize in fire-type spells.... dunno, stumped.

Any thoughts on an avignon taking levels as a fire cleric?
#10
zombiegleemax
Jan 23, 2004 6:45:06 Ok, I see I need to explain my comment a lil more. My player wants his character to start off a psion, and eventually get the pyryokinetcist PrC, and max out at level 10, thus making him a fire elemental. Then he wants to try and become an avangion. Yes, his type will change to outsider, but I decided to let him keep the Fire subtype, and tell him his avangion form is that of a flaming, fiery avangion.

--I thought it sounded really, really cool NB
#11
jaanos
Jan 24, 2004 4:53:51 That's cool. Still, alot of of levels to acquire....

Jaan

Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Ok, I see I need to explain my comment a lil more. My player wants his character to start off a psion, and eventually get the pyryokinetcist PrC, and max out at level 10, thus making him a fire elemental. Then he wants to try and become an avangion. Yes, his type will change to outsider, but I decided to let him keep the Fire subtype, and tell him his avangion form is that of a flaming, fiery avangion.

--I thought it sounded really, really cool NB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jaanos Jan 17, 2004 18:48:59	It has occured to me, reviewing some of the old 2e material that there a couple of... variations... possible in terms of advanced beings. For example, a Necromancer who makes it 20th level, is human or half-elf, then makes it to 20th level as a Psion as the potential to become a dragon... but a NECROMANTIC DRAGON. Likewise, a shadow mage, could theoretically reach 20th level, make the switch to psionics and become a SHADOW DRAGON. Now the really weird bit is this - Necromancers and Shadow Mages who retain thier Preserver Status. Grey Avignons, Shadow Avignons anyone? In 2e, those specilised kits didn't preclude becoming an Avignon or Dragon once the other prerequsities were met... i wanted to get people thoughts on in DS3.0/3.5 advanced beings. Various models have been proposed. My belief is that it should be as close as possible to the 2e method (20/20) with provisions for Pyschic Warriors to become Dragons. I also think that any character that has levels as a shadow mage or necromancer should be able to advance on and become a variation of an advanced being... Also, thoughts on how to handle elemental clerics.
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 17, 2004 22:24:06	I rather like the idea, but I would personally not want to be the one to implement it
#3 Kamelion Jan 18, 2004 1:25:35	There is some precedence for variant advanced beings in the Prism Pentad, where the sorcerer-kings are often depicted as looking different to one another, following differing paths to transformation etc. I was really struck by this when reading it and wondered why it was never reflected in the rpg material - it seems like such a rich idea. Mach made a nice point in another thread about the nature of an advanced being stemming from the nature of its own soul or somesuch. I'd say that your suggestions are very interesting and could bear fleshing out. It raises one question with me, though. I have the feeling (nothing more) that avangions and dragons are intimately linked to athas' life energy (chiefly through their spellcasting). The transformation into a dragon or avangion represents the pinnacle of magical interaction with that lifeforce. Necromants and Shadow Wizards don't use that connection anymore in their spellcasting (are they really still preservers? Aren't they something else now, outside of the defiler/preserver categories?) My question is why should wizards with no firm magical connection to this lifeforce be able to transform into dragons or avangions - a transformation that is ultimately symbolic of one's connection to that lifeforce? I would suggest that they would become a different sort of advanced being altogether. A Necromant might wind up as some sort of advnaced undead, and a Shadow Wizard might become a powerful creature of the Black. A more comprehensive list of types of advanced beings might include dragons, avangions, elementals, spirits of the land, ruvoka and pyreen alongside the additional types you suggest. It would be good to see a broad set of options that allow this kind of diversity in a 3e game.
#4 jaanos Jan 18, 2004 2:35:27	Thanks for the feedback. OK, firstly, in 2e if shadow mages and necromancers were cut off from the black / grey, they could still power spells via defiling or preserver magic. They are still tied to the life-force of athas in that way. Also, the grey is a some-what unique demi-plane that is also intimatley tied to the life force of athas. It contains the souls (most intimate form of life-force?) of athas's recently (and not-so-recently) deceased. The black "seperates everything that is from everything that isn't" and again, has properites that while similar to the traditional shadow plane are unique to athas. I allways saw cereculean mages, shadow mages and necromaners as simply being mages that had TWO energy sources available to them, with a preference to the alternative energy source. Perhaps the REASON dregoth came back was that he WAS a necromancer, one of the first ever mages to become tied to the grey - that's why he came back. Just an idle thought. No evidence, but fits nicely. Originally posted by Kamelion The transformation into a dragon or avangion represents the pinnacle of magical interaction with that lifeforce. Necromants and Shadow Wizards don't use that connection anymore in their spellcasting (are they really still preservers? Aren't they something else now, outside of the defiler/preserver categories?) My question is why should wizards with no firm magical connection to this lifeforce be able to transform into dragons or avangions - a transformation that is ultimately symbolic of one's connection to that lifeforce? I would suggest that they would become a different sort of advanced being altogether. A Necromant might wind up as some sort of advnaced undead, and a Shadow Wizard might become a powerful creature of the Black. .
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jan 18, 2004 3:01:51	Yet another reason you don't include specific class/level requirements to a PrC, but rather use other requirements. Like "Able to cast 9th level Arcane Spells", which a Shadow Wizard or a Necromant PrC could be able to do.
#6 jaanos Jan 18, 2004 17:42:51	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm Yet another reason you don't include specific class/level requirements to a PrC, but rather use other requirements. Like "Able to cast 9th level Arcane Spells", which a Shadow Wizard or a Necromant PrC could be able to do. Good point. I'm really excited about this concept... hmm... that's it, i've settled on in - my new arch-nemisis in the new darksun campain i'm going to start DM-ing in a couple of weeks will be a Grey Dragon, 1st stage of metamorphis. Once i finish his stats, i'll write them up.
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2004 12:11:54	It says in the old 2e Dragon Kings supplement that each dragon and avangion and character elemental looked different from all others. So sure!, each advanced being can be customized in this way. --one of my players wants to become a fiery avangion NB
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2004 13:52:13	--one of my players wants to become a fiery avangion
#9 jaanos Jan 22, 2004 19:50:34	A fiery avignon? hmm.... 2e rules sorta hinted strongly that specilist mages didn't exist on athas, even the necromancer had special skills with the undead and was tied to the grey, wasn't actually a specialist in the traditional sense. A FIRE avignon.... i suppose under 3e, he could specilize in fire-type spells.... dunno, stumped. Any thoughts on an avignon taking levels as a fire cleric?
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2004 6:45:06	Ok, I see I need to explain my comment a lil more. My player wants his character to start off a psion, and eventually get the pyryokinetcist PrC, and max out at level 10, thus making him a fire elemental. Then he wants to try and become an avangion. Yes, his type will change to outsider, but I decided to let him keep the Fire subtype, and tell him his avangion form is that of a flaming, fiery avangion. --I thought it sounded really, really cool NB
#11 jaanos Jan 24, 2004 4:53:51	That's cool. Still, alot of of levels to acquire.... Jaan Originally posted by Nero's Boot Ok, I see I need to explain my comment a lil more. My player wants his character to start off a psion, and eventually get the pyryokinetcist PrC, and max out at level 10, thus making him a fire elemental. Then he wants to try and become an avangion. Yes, his type will change to outsider, but I decided to let him keep the Fire subtype, and tell him his avangion form is that of a flaming, fiery avangion. --I thought it sounded really, really cool NB