My theory is that Chaos was the god of brute force, overwhelming power, and destruction in it's rawest form. Thus, he held enough power, both magical and martial, to hold off every other Krynnish god, not once, but twice in the history of Krynn.
--I also view Chaos as the patron deity of primal sorcery NB
--thus, your theory is impossible NB
Chaos is referred to as the Father of All and Nothing because it was out of Chaos that all things came, but only by the ordered direction of the High God. Thus, Law vs. Chaos, in contrast to the pantheon of Krynn, which is the triad of evil, neutrality and good.
Cheers,
Cam
That cannot be. Chaos was defeated by the gods. Gods do not defeat overgods.
--thus, your theory is impossible NB
I don't think I agree with that. I think there is always a way for someone to be defeated. Look at mythology. Zeus took out Chronos which should have been imposible, but he offed him.
Game mechanics can't always explain what happens in novels.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
That cannot be. Chaos was defeated by the gods. Gods do not defeat overgods.
Sorry, bud...but Chaos wasn't defeated by the gods...Chaos was defeated by mortals. Even more of a sting.
You've got to remember though, that many many years ago (perhaps millions...there's no time frame for the Age of Starbirth), Ionthas was banished to the Void of Chaos (at least that's my interpretation by mixing the DoaVM Appendix with the cosmology of the DLCS)...and he was trapped there until about 5,000 years ago. For those possibly millions of years, Ionthas went crazy (as is implied in the DLCS descirption of the Void of Chaos). Then he was trapped. I don't think Ionthas jumped into the Greygem because he knew he could wreck havoc on Krynn...I think Reorx took the Greygem to the Void of Chaos to capture some chaotic energies within it...and Ionthas (now effectively insane and thinking he is chaotic energy incarnate, Chaos) saw his chance to escape the Void. But then he was trapped in the Gem...so while there he caused havoc until he tricked the Irda into freeing him.
That's just my take. Not sure about gods and uber-gods stuff though. heh heh
That implies that the gods already existed in some form or another. Perhaps Ionthas also existed, either in the Beyond or within the primordial chaos in which Krynn was created.
Ionthas was powerful but not omnipotent. Clearly he could be driven back and/or contained or else he would have consumed the world long ago.
I would speculate that Ionthas was the god of primordial void. When the High God and the Krynnish pantheons came and imposed their order upon the void he was not happy. He wants to return things to their primordial state.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Chaos isn't the High God, but he's not an overgod in the Forgotten Realms AO sort of way. It was from Chaos that the world was created, in a primeval sense. A manifestation of Chaos was trapped within the Graygem when it was created, not all of Chaos itself. Considerable power, enough to threaten the world and unmake it, breaking it apart, but that flaming being that the heroes in Summer Flame battled was not the totality of Chaos.
Ah, so you believe what was fought in Dragons of Summer Flame was merely a piece or fragment of Chaos, and the real deal is still floating out there in the Void of Chaos? Interesting...
Chaos is referred to as the Father of All and Nothing because it was out of Chaos that all things came, but only by the ordered direction of the High God. Thus, Law vs. Chaos, in contrast to the pantheon of Krynn, which is the triad of evil, neutrality and good.
But the High God is stronger. After all, the High God does not fear the gods, yet Chaos can be defeated and/or imprisoned by them. Thus, if Chaos and the High God are related, it must be in the form of "Father/High God; Son/Chaos" or "Elder and Stronger Brother/High God; Younger and Weaker Brother/Chaos."
Originally posted by Psionycx
It is worth noting that the Krynnish creation story doesn't exactly say that the High God created the gods of Krynn, it says that he/she/it called them from the Beyond.
Point taken. Perhaps the gods of Krynn are just as old as the High God, just on a lesser scale of power and cognizance?
That implies that the gods already existed in some form or another. Perhaps Ionthas also existed, either in the Beyond or within the primordial chaos in which Krynn was created.
Always possible. Still, Chaos is no overgod.
Ionthas was powerful but not omnipotent. Clearly he could be driven back and/or contained or else he would have consumed the world long ago.
Point taken.
I would speculate that Ionthas was the god of primordial void. When the High God and the Krynnish pantheons came and imposed their order upon the void he was not happy. He wants to return things to their primordial state.
Ah, much like Shar from the world of Toril? In the Forgotten Realms, Shar represents the void that existed before Ao's act of Creation. Interesting. So, in your opinion, is the Void of Chaos all that remains from this primordial soup that predated the act of Krynn's forging?
--hmmm, then that would make the Void of Chaos into the Far Realms NB
Always possible. Still, Chaos is no overgod.
Says you...
I guess thats why all the gods and mortals had to combine forces to be able to take him down?
But the High God is stronger. After all, the High God does not fear the gods, yet Chaos can be defeated and/or imprisoned by them. Thus, if Chaos and the High God are related, it must be in the form of "Father/High God; Son/Chaos" or "Elder and Stronger Brother/High God; Younger and Weaker Brother/Chaos."
I'd subscribe to somthing like that.....I guess what I meant was that The Highgod and Ionthas/Chaos are overgods in relation to the 21 gods of the Krynnish pantheon. IMHO, yes the Highgod is the ultimate, but Chaos is ultimately second in power to him.....above the others......accounting for the other gods knowing that they had to combine forces in order to halt the threat.
In many ancient theologies, including Judaism, the primordial substance of the cosmos was chaos (usually manifest as salt water). The gods then created the world by pushing back the chaos (hence the way the land seemed surrounded by seas) and the world was formed in the opened space.
In Ionthas's case, the High God and the Krynn gods pushed back the chaos, maybe vacuumed it up into some vortex and pumped it into some nether realm to make room for their new creation. Ionthas was likewise shoved aside because he found all this order and acts of creation offensive. Who needs worlds and spirits and such when you have the untamed beauty of chaos after all?
So yes, the analogy with Shar is a good one. And she is a powerful goddess as well, although in her case pieces of her power were chipped off during her ages of conflict with her sibling Selune (creating other deities like Mystryl).
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I guess thats why all the gods and mortals had to combine forces to be able to take him down?
Not to mention that combined they were still getting whupped. They won on basically a technicality. Trapping any of Chaos is akin to trapping the bulk of the entity itself (everything and nothing again). So all they had to do was get one little drop of blood. The gods IIRC, really weren't doing much to Chaos other than distracting him so the mortals could take him out. Again, only due to a technicality and the heroes thinking outside the proverbial box (and a little Deus Ex Machina action going on thanks to the authors, otherwise Krynn would have been squished by Chaos)
To underestimate the power of Chaos simply because he was defeated in DoSF is for lack of a better term, folly.
In Ionthas's case, the High God and the Krynn gods pushed back the chaos, maybe vacuumed it up into some vortex and pumped it into some nether realm to make room for their new creation. Ionthas was likewise shoved aside because he found all this order and acts of creation offensive.
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Maybe energy from the void was used in krynn's creation. That can explain the existence of the latent sorcerous power(whitch embodies chaos) in krynn, plus it gives more reason for chaos to be all mad at the gods.
And did anyone ever think that maybe Chaos is the god of chaos?
Originally posted by person with the stuff
QUOTE:Originally posted by Psionycx
And did anyone ever think that maybe Chaos is the god of chaos?
Actually, Ionthas is on level with the high god, he went to the Void and there became crazy mad. He actaully thinks he is Chaos, not just the god of chaos. I don't think he actually minded being "captured" inside the Greygem because he could now anonymously wreak chaos across the face of Ansalon and possibly Krynn. (Just out of curiosity did the Greygem travel elsewhere besides Ansalon??) I think it was when he found out he couldn't break free from the Greygem that he became enraged.
Chaos is referred to as the Father of All and Nothing because it was out of Chaos that all things came, but only by the ordered direction of the High God. Thus, Law vs. Chaos, in contrast to the pantheon of Krynn, which is the triad of evil, neutrality and good.
I think Cam has a very good point there. DL is all about balance, contrast, and the interaction of them both with the world.
Originally posted by Insta_AxE_Toast
Why is it there are so many different stories about chaos and the gods ... Why did they not just stick to one story ?
Somebody thought what was previously said about it wasn't good enough, and wrote another one. This is the primary reason for any contradiction in game products. Often, in an attempt to make an older rule or event make sense with new products, things get revised. We did this to some extent with the Bestiary of Krynn, which is jam-packed with collected revisions and subtle retcons.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Insta_AxE_Toast
Oi, so which sorce has the propper explination ?
Currently? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting.
Cheers,
Cam
, a brief examination of the High God and Chaos as portrayed therein. Note that the Divine Ranks are rough assignments.The High God
Divine Rank: Infinite
Portfolio: Creation, good, love, holiness, truth, destiny, judgement, redemption
Chaos (Ionthas)
Divine Rank: 35+
Portfolio:
Original: Power, energy, creativity, order, unity
Post-Fall: Chaos, madness, fury, destruction, pride
(In this interpretation, the Dark Queen's original portfolio would have encompassed starlight, beauty, and queenship as well. I've never worked out 'original portfolios' for the other six.)
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
The High God
Divine Rank: Infinite
Portfolio: Creation, good, love, holiness, truth, destiny, judgement, redemption
Chaos (Ionthas)
Divine Rank: 35+
Portfolio:
Original: Power, energy, creativity, order, unity
Post-Fall: Chaos, madness, fury, destruction, pride
The High God has good? What the Abyss? Wouldn't he be above such labels as good or evil?
Edit:
I think love is more of a Mishakal thing. Also aren't creativity and order in a way opposites?
I personally look at the Chaos/High God dichotomy like a yin-yang balance of order and disorder. But that's my eastern view for ya there.
it's a very cyclical argument colored by real world belief =)
Originally posted by talinthas
MLM's original doc was very heavily Catholic leaning. His High God was very much like the New Testament God in fashion, and his Chaos was Satan style.
To be fair, it was more Miltonian and Tolkienesque than "heavily Catholic leaning". Ionthas was very much the fallen angel, like Melkur/Morgoth, and the other gods were very clearly archangels/Valar. It works if that's the feel you're hoping to get in Dragonlance.
Cheers,
Cam
Quite simply, the high god is the supreme being in DL. Chaos is beyond all the gods in the pantheon, it stated that even in a very weakened state Chaos still could probably defeat them all, but that does not mean he is an over god. He could just have a DR 20. I mean the greatest gods in DL, Paladine and Tak and Gilean, are probably DR 17 or 18 and you would think that a group of powerful gods could easily defeat a DR 20 god but that is not the case. Greyhawk had an example of an event like this and it nearly tore that world apart.
Chaos believes himself to be the creator. He does not acknowledge the High God is even there and just tries to screw with what the other gods are doing. He can wipe out their creations but his own are just imitations of the other gods creations that have no will or anything of their own. They are just extentions of himself and so not true creations like the High god made.
The reason that I gather that there are so many tales is that first in DoSF it states that this is the oldest account of creation known so it is probably true. In the appendix Paladine is telling so I take his word over the Irda but he is probably biased as well. The DLCS really didn't go against anything in either book. It just says that Chaos sought- and still seeks- to undo what the gods have done.
Another reason Chaos may have gained so much power is he corrupted his own mind so much that he may have gained portfolions and domains that did not exsist before. Originally he probably had all it took to head the creation of all things but that all changed to the ability to end all things. He probably even has portfolio's such as "Nothing" and a similar domain. I mean destroying a soul and every memory of that person is very impressive indeed. Though the gods did not forget the person and so it bares to reason that the high god still knew them and pulled them out of the nothing and put them in the waters beyind the river of souls.
High god does not get involved because his work is done really. He just sort of watches and who is to say that he is not involved? He puts new souls into the world and then takes the old ones unto himself. He set the decree of balance down so that the gods have to maintain it or the world would fall. Why would the Tobril have a punishment suitable for the stealing of the world if the High God had not forseen it in some way? The High God may be simply the hand of fate and power that people attribute to chance. I could go on, but I don't see the reason to. I mean theories are always going to exsist on the gods but the origin one is one of the hardest because people are set in what they think and I can't say that I blame them but the one in the Appendix seems the most plausable but needs a few things added to fit completly