Lupins in Dragon #325...Opinions?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Oct 13, 2004 18:20:59
I'm eager to hear what y'all think about the 3.5 lupin as presented in Dragon #325?
#2

eric_anondson

Oct 14, 2004 0:41:59
I'm pleased with it. The "Teaching an Old Dog New Tricks" box is a great touch. A few nits that only a Mystara-phile might be tweeked about, but overall, very nice!

The re-use of lupin art from the Savage Coast products was nice, too. I always loved the drawing of the lupin outside the Red Wolf. Fully understandable that you couldn't delve into the dozens of lupin sub-races...


Regards,
Eric Anondson
#3

zombiegleemax

Oct 24, 2004 7:29:02
Mike, I finally got my hands on issue 325 yesterday. I really liked the article, congratulations on a job well done. As mentioned above the old artwork and the "teacing an old dog..." section was a nice touch. And the new coloured artwork-simply amazing! The crunch of the article looks good too. It seems very well balanced. The "Blast from the Past" sidebar on page 16 of the mag was cool; will this be a regular feature? Its good to see for us oldtime players.
Thanks again for the article and for keeping the spirit of the Known World alive.
#4

npc_dave

Oct 26, 2004 18:23:24
This article got me thinking about how people who use Lupins in the Known World actually use them. The article portrays generic lupins as being similar to the North American Indian tribes, but also mentions that lupins in the Known World are nomadic, living at the edges of human civilization.

Now Bruce Heard's article wasn't too specific, but is that how people use them in the Known World? I would agree in some cases, like the fennecs in Ylaruam, and the breed in Norworld. But others, like the lupins on Ochalea, or those who live in Glantri, I view a bit differently. For example, I see some of the lupins living in Glantri living in their own ghettos as part of the human towns and villages.
#5

spellweaver

Oct 27, 2004 10:49:21
This article got me thinking about how people who use Lupins in the Known World actually use them.

Well, I grew up with the Gaz series but not Red Steel and the VotPA and I never used Lupins. Not once. Simply because it wasn't until a year or two ago, reading on the Vault, that I found out others seemingly used Lupins as part of their Mystara campaigns.

I can't remember ever reading about Lupins in the Gaz (although I am not sure about Glantri) so I never figures they were part of the Known World. I just read about them in the Creature Catalogue and thougth: "OMG! Another humanoid race with the head of some animal. Haven't we seen enough of those?"

Which canon Mystara products detail Lupins in the Known World and Savage Coast and how big a percentage of the population do they make out in the various realms?

:-) Jesper
#6

havard

Oct 27, 2004 13:02:27
Which canon Mystara products detail Lupins in the Known World and Savage Coast and how big a percentage of the population do they make out in the various realms?

I suppose you're right about the fact that antropomorphic animals are pretty common these days. Still, the presence of Lupins, Rakasta and Tortles are elements that set Mystara apart from the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and the vast number of other vanilla fantasy settings.

I'm not sure, but I think Lupins were first introduced in X? Castle Amber set in Glantri and was then included in the original Creature Catalogue (AC9, not the red one).

The reintroduction of these creatures into Mystara were Bruce Heards articles in Dragon Magazine, beginning with VotPa which first explored the Savage Coast (well, ignoring the X-series modules covering the same region). Later Bruce Heart also wrote two articles for AD&D Mystara, one detailing the Lupins of Mystara and the second detailing the Rakasta of Mystara. In both of these articles it is described where these races live both on the Savage Coast, the Known World and also other places like Davania.

Unfortunately, I cant give you the numbers of the Dragon Issues I mentioned here, but you should be able to find that information on the Vaults.

Håvard
#7

zombiegleemax

Oct 27, 2004 14:36:56
I'm not sure, but I think Lupins were first introduced in X? Castle Amber set in Glantri and was then included in the original Creature Catalogue (AC9, not the red one).

Your memory serves you well. As mentioned in a sidebar in the article, lupins first appeared in X2: Castle Amber (only one of the many reasons to check out that awesome adventure).

Unfortunately, I cant give you the numbers of the Dragon Issues I mentioned here, but you should be able to find that information on the Vaults.

Dragon #237 has one of the lupin articles, but I can't recall off the top of my head where the other is. Once you find out (from checking the Vaults), you can head on over to paizo.com/backissues to pick up those issues.
#8

npc_dave

Oct 27, 2004 19:05:14
Well, I grew up with the Gaz series but not Red Steel and the VotPA and I never used Lupins. Not once. Simply because it wasn't until a year or two ago, reading on the Vault, that I found out others seemingly used Lupins as part of their Mystara campaigns.

I can't remember ever reading about Lupins in the Gaz (although I am not sure about Glantri) so I never figures they were part of the Known World. I just read about them in the Creature Catalogue and thougth: "OMG! Another humanoid race with the head of some animal. Haven't we seen enough of those?"

Which canon Mystara products detail Lupins in the Known World and Savage Coast and how big a percentage of the population do they make out in the various realms?

:-) Jesper

Sorry, they were a late addition to Known World/Mystara lore, so let me give some background.

They aren't in the Gazeteers, they came afterwards and really showed up in just the modules and creature catalogs. As Havard mentioned they were introduced in X2 Castle Amber.

They were also used in module X9 and Dungeon issues #7 and #8, which were all authored by the same two writers and described the Savage Coast for the first time. Rakasta were also used(from X1/X2) and Tortles(as well as their evil cousins the snappers) were introduced. All of these ani-men were nomadic and lived either on the coast or in the Yazak Steppes, and those adventures never described them beyond monster encounter descriptions and alignment. The adventures had no plot beyond exploration and were just a description of various encounter points among the wildlands.

Now when the Princess Ark series moved from the recent past to the Gazeteer present, it started in Sind and moved west. Bruce Heard decided that all of these lands without civilization were boring, so he began to populate them with countries and civilizations. Hence Sind was a nation west of Darokin, rather than a just a desert with a few city-states. Hule was more or less unchanged.

When he got to the Savage Coast, he began to lay the foundation for what became the Red Steel/Savage Baronies setting, and Savage Coast(online only) setting. Beyond the Savage Baronies, Bruce used the previous material from X9 and Dungeon to create new countries. So now the lupins, the rakastas, the aranea and the phanatons all had their own nations or lands. The tortles didn't get their own nation, but they did get their own locations and communities as well.

The lupins had the kingdom of Renardy, and there are even throw away references to this kingdom in the PC4 Lycanthropes supplement, which includes a few lupins in Glantri, who know of a fabled land where lupins rule themselves.

Red Steel turned Bruce Heard's work into another AD&D campaign setting, and while the nature of the cinnabryl and its powers were changed, the rest was more or less the same.

As AD&D wound down to a close, Bruce had a couple of articles published in Dragon which expanded lupins and rakastas. Dragon 237 and 247 respectively. Each of these diversified lupins and rakastas from a generic dog/cat people to specific breeds and types, based on dog breeds and certain foxes and wolves for lupins, and the various species in the cat family for rakastas. The generic/mongrel breeds were also kept.

The articles gave rules for playing lupins/rakastas as PCs, with special abilities for each of the breeds/types. And it assigned Mystara locations for many of the lupins/rakastas.

Interestingly, several lupin breeds were assigned specifically to the Known World, and are not generally found anywhere else. Rakastas were assigned to many other locations, including other Mystara continents, but NOT to the Known World.

Assigning lupins to the Known World beyond Glantri was a retcon, and only shows up in Dragon #237. But I was just launching a new campaign soon after, so I decided to run with it. Heard didn't provide much information beyond these lupins live here, and they like to do this. So I was a bit surprised to see the viewpoint that lupins in the Known World are nomadic.

I agree that some are, but others I believe would live within or next to the human communities.
#9

spellweaver

Oct 28, 2004 4:30:35
Great info NPC Dave!

I am going to have to see if I can find a way to sneak rakhasta and lupins into my campaign without the players being confused as to why they have never met one before

:-) Jesper
#10

stanles

Oct 28, 2004 6:05:40
Your memory serves you well. As mentioned in a sidebar in the article, lupins first appeared in X2: Castle Amber (only one of the many reasons to check out that awesome adventure).



Dragon #237 has one of the lupin articles, but I can't recall off the top of my head where the other is. Once you find out (from checking the Vaults), you can head on over to paizo.com/backissues to pick up those issues.

or better yet buy the Dragon CD issues 1 to 250, wonderful.

By the way Mike, or anyone that knows, I heard rumours at one stage of a similar product for Dungeon. Is that the case or not? I'm still looking for a copy of issue 6 for Tortles of the Purple Sage part 1 at a reasonable price.
#11

stanles

Oct 28, 2004 6:07:52
I'm eager to hear what y'all think about the 3.5 lupin as presented in Dragon #325?

it still ahsn't hit the shelves in Canberra, Australia yet so I'll continue to hold off on this one. Meanwhile you might be able to answer Mike, but why are the issues to subscribers available so long before everyone else. I appreciate that subscribers should get stuff a bit earlier but 4 weeks seems a bit much.
#12

zombiegleemax

Oct 28, 2004 14:41:36
or better yet buy the Dragon CD issues 1 to 250, wonderful.

By the way Mike, or anyone that knows, I heard rumours at one stage of a similar product for Dungeon. Is that the case or not? I'm still looking for a copy of issue 6 for Tortles of the Purple Sage part 1 at a reasonable price.

I hadn't heard of this, but because of certain legal issues that arose with the release of the Dragon CD collection, it's highly unlikely that a Dungeon CD (or even a follow-up Dragon CD) will ever see the light of day. No, I can't say any more than that. Nothing is impossible, of course, but new CDs probably have as much chance of seeing print as I do of winning the lottery. ;)
#13

zombiegleemax

Oct 28, 2004 14:47:07
it still ahsn't hit the shelves in Canberra, Australia yet so I'll continue to hold off on this one. Meanwhile you might be able to answer Mike, but why are the issues to subscribers available so long before everyone else. I appreciate that subscribers should get stuff a bit earlier but 4 weeks seems a bit much.

A bit off topic, but I'll answer this as well as I can.

Strangely enough, this is the first time that I've heard of subscribers getting their issues before the stores. Subscribers are supposed to get their issues first, but there have been some difficulties that I'm not at liberty to talk about (mostly because I'm only on the periphery of "those in the know") that have made many subscribers get their magazines much later than stores. Even when everything is working correctly, a subscriber is only supposed to get his magazine about a week before his local store. Like I said, though, there are a lot of goings on that have our fulfillment in an uproar at the moment. Rest assured that Paizo is doing everything in our power to make everything right. We just request a little more patience.
#14

stanles

Oct 28, 2004 15:11:05
I hadn't heard of this, but because of certain legal issues that arose with the release of the Dragon CD collection, it's highly unlikely that a Dungeon CD (or even a follow-up Dragon CD) will ever see the light of day. No, I can't say any more than that. Nothing is impossible, of course, but new CDs probably have as much chance of seeing print as I do of winning the lottery. ;)

that's a shame

...

and the news that it's highly unlikely that there'll be a Dungeon CD or follow up Dragon CD is pretty dissapointing too

:D
#15

stanles

Oct 28, 2004 15:15:31
A bit off topic, but I'll answer this as well as I can.

Strangely enough, this is the first time that I've heard of subscribers getting their issues before the stores. Subscribers are supposed to get their issues first, but there have been some difficulties that I'm not at liberty to talk about (mostly because I'm only on the periphery of "those in the know") that have made many subscribers get their magazines much later than stores. Even when everything is working correctly, a subscriber is only supposed to get his magazine about a week before his local store. Like I said, though, there are a lot of goings on that have our fulfillment in an uproar at the moment. Rest assured that Paizo is doing everything in our power to make everything right. We just request a little more patience.

Yeah it's a bit off topic but interesting anyway - and I just wanted to let you know why there hasn't been a great deal of discussion on this topic so far - it's not because Mystara people aren't interested in talking about the Lupin article (more than likely)

I pulled the dates for issue 325 getting out to subscribers September 28 and hitting stores October 26 off the Paizo website. The dates for the current issues, http://www.paizo.com/paizo, seem to support a pretty long delay between subscribers and stores.
#16

havard

Oct 29, 2004 8:17:03
I am also waiting for November's Dragon to arrive in my local gaming store. I've told the store owner to hold off a copy of this particular issue for me just to make sure I don't miss it.

I wanted to check which issues of Dragon previously dealt with Rakasta and Lupins, but the Vaults appear to be down. Ofcourse I have the actual magazines stashed away somewhere, but who knows where exactly?

What I have heard about the possibilities of releasing a Dungeon CD archive is that there was a huge legal mess after the Dragon CD archive was released concerning the indivdual writers' rights to the material, and contacting each author was understandably very difficult. That doomed the chance of ever seeing more CD archives of either Dragon or Dungeon. Which is really too bad because I've found my Dragon CD archive extremely useful and would have loved to see one for Dungeon aswell.

Also, like you Shawn, I am also looking for Tortles of Purple Sage part 1.....

Håvard
#17

spellweaver

Oct 29, 2004 10:19:57
What I have heard about the possibilities of releasing a Dungeon CD archive is that there was a huge legal mess after the Dragon CD archive was released concerning the indivdual writers' rights to the material, and contacting each author was understandably very difficult.

??

I was ye close to writing a module for Dungeon four years ago (but stuff got in the way of me ever finishing it of course ) and they wrote me that they would own the copyright to all material sent to them. So how can it be that the writers of old have rights? Sloppy lawyer work in the day of TSR??

:-) Jesper
#18

havard

Oct 29, 2004 11:10:58
??

I was ye close to writing a module for Dungeon four years ago (but stuff got in the way of me ever finishing it of course ) and they wrote me that they would own the copyright to all material sent to them. So how can it be that the writers of old have rights? Sloppy lawyer work in the day of TSR??

Not sure, but one guess would be that Dungeon would own the rights as long as they are produced in a certain format. The problem being that a CD Archive would be a different format, and thus problems. Thats only my guess though, perhaps Mikey can clarify things?

By the way Jesper, why don't you finnish your module now and post it somwehere where we can read it?

Håvard
#19

stanles

Oct 29, 2004 12:55:34
I wanted to check which issues of Dragon previously dealt with Rakasta and Lupins, but the Vaults appear to be down. Ofcourse I have the actual magazines stashed away somewhere, but who knows where exactly?

issue 181 is the issue that you after there.

I hadn't been informed that the Vaults were going to be down.
#20

Hugin

Oct 29, 2004 16:52:38
I hadn't been informed that the Vaults were going to be down.

I was just there so all's good now!
#21

Hugin

Oct 29, 2004 16:58:12
I hadn't been informed that the Vaults were going to be down.

I was just there so all's good now!
#22

npc_dave

Oct 30, 2004 3:00:29
Here is a breakdown of what lupins might be found in the Known World(and elsewhere) based on Dragon #237:

Unspecified(these guys I prefer to keep on the Savage Coast)
Royal Basset Hound
Greater Beagle(one ended up on Serraine)
Burrow Bandit
Red Foxfolk
Gnomish Snaoutzer(live alongside forest gnomes, whoever they are)
Greater Golden Retriever
Long-Runner
King Mastiff
Nithian Rambler
Shag-Head
Wolvenfolk
Basic lupin mongrels

Renardy
Grand Bloodhound
Blue Bandit
Neo Papillon
Renardois Folk

Savage Coast
Nova-Svogan Borzoi
Bouchon
Eusdrian Bulldog
Carrasquito
Das Hund
Ispan Pistolero
Narvaezan Maremma
Torreon Pit-Bull(also in Thyatis)
Gonic Slagovici
Gonic Zvornikski

Ochalea
Ogrish Chow-chow
Ochalean Crested
Ochalean Houndling
High Shar-Pei

northwest of Broken Lands
Cimarron Hairless(also living with the Shadow Elves)

Hattia(by the way, how do people pronounce this?)
Doggerman (also in Heldann)

Heldann
Heldann Shepherd

Ylaruam
Fighting Fennec

Norworld
White Foxfolk
Norworld Malamute

Glantri
Glantri Mountaineer(Glantrian Alps)
Hound of Klantyre

Ostland
Ye Great Dogge

Now there are tables for rolling a lupin breed randomly, with an entry for the Known World and an entry for the Savage Coast. That table implies all but two breeds could be found in the Known World, but as I said, I prefer to keep more of them on the Savage Coast and Renardy, with just the lupins specifically assigned to the Known World to be present there.
#23

spellweaver

Oct 30, 2004 7:17:21
By the way Jesper, why don't you finnish your module now and post it somwehere where we can read it?

Hmm... thinking back it was rather stupid not to pursue the chance with more energy. I had been sending Dungeon ideas and proposals for six months and getting no, no, politely no and 'fraid not every time when suddenly they wrote me back that they liked my latest idea and would like to see a complete adventure six weeks later if I could manage it. I had only recently gotten the 3E rules and there was no way that I could have written a complete module in that amount of time. (It is actually darn hard work writing a generic adventure to suit all classes and alignments instead of coming up with something for your own group of players that you know inside out).

So I asked for more time, got it and then never finished the project

I might finish it one day but if I do, I am probably gonna send it Dungeon first before just posting it on the net. But who knows? Maybe it'll suddenly be there one day :D

:-) Jesper
#24

zombiegleemax

Nov 01, 2004 14:07:13
Not sure, but one guess would be that Dungeon would own the rights as long as they are produced in a certain format. The problem being that a CD Archive would be a different format, and thus problems. Thats only my guess though, perhaps Mikey can clarify things?

I'd like to, but I'll just attribute it to sloppy lawyerin' and leave it at that. ;)
#25

Hugin

Nov 01, 2004 16:43:40
I'd like to, but I'll just attribute it to sloppy lawyerin' and leave it at that. ;)

Hey, when life just makes no sense, blame the lawyers :D
#26

katana_one

Nov 01, 2004 18:28:34
I liked the Lupin 3.5 stats. They were pretty close to my own conversion for 3.0. I liked them so much in fact, I will probably delete my conversion in favor of this one.

I thought it was a much better job than had been done on the Tortle a few issues ago.
#27

Cthulhudrew

Nov 01, 2004 18:42:46
Don't have my issue yet, but I flipped through it on the stands and from what I saw, it looked pretty good. Got more back to the "original" Lupin (from X2 and the Creature Catalog) than the "enhanced Lupin" from Savage Coast/Dragon 237. Those versions just added way too much "stuff" to the Lupin, for my tastes. All the "see ethereal, smell everything, roar, bite, etc." just went over the top- same with all the Rakasta add-on's of later development.

I really liked all of Bruce's "breeds" of Lupins when I first read that article, but more and more over the years I have grown to dislike the idea of "sub-races"- no wood elves/gray elves/high elves/etc. for me! So that's why I was glad to see the Lupin article just boil them down to one "main" race. (Looking at that original Dragon article, it would be very easy to create feats and things to represent the different breeds of Lupin. And except for two breeds- which are small creatures, rather than medium- there is no reason to create any sub-races.)

That being said, I do have one question for the author. Why did you decide to make the Lupins Monstrous Humanoids rather than Humanoids? It's kind of an arbitrary thing, admittedly (and I've gone back and forth on it myself). In the end, I decided to make them Humanoids for one reason- that being that the Monstrous Manual labeled Gnolls as Humanoid (Gnoll) rather than Monstrous Humanoid. I think the Gnoll probably should be a Monstrous Humanoid (from the picture, and its legs, it looks even more "monstrous" than the merely furry and dog-headed Lupin), but since the core has it as humanoid, that's the label I gave to the Lupin as well.

Just curious as to your reasoning, though I suspect it's similar to my own. Not a complaint. (The complaint would be the arbitrary rankings established by the core materials- isn't a "Giant" really just a big Humanoid?)
#28

Goldrak

Nov 02, 2004 6:53:09
Got my issue last week and jumped right to the Lupins.
Interresting aproach, much better than mine...
Nevertheless, i have the same question as Cthulhudrew, why MH?? Some really "monstruous humanoids" races are humanoids (lizardfolk comes to mind)?
I really liked the aproach of no stats modifiers! Why not a natural attack?
As general overview, great job i'll use them! thanks!!
I look forward for the remaning races...


;)
#29

zombiegleemax

Nov 02, 2004 11:58:39
I thought it was a much better job than had been done on the Tortle a few issues ago.

That's the benefit of having a fan of the setting and creature doing the update.
#30

zombiegleemax

Nov 02, 2004 12:27:39
Don't have my issue yet, but I flipped through it on the stands and from what I saw, it looked pretty good. Got more back to the "original" Lupin (from X2 and the Creature Catalog) than the "enhanced Lupin" from Savage Coast/Dragon 237. Those versions just added way too much "stuff" to the Lupin, for my tastes. All the "see ethereal, smell everything, roar, bite, etc." just went over the top- same with all the Rakasta add-on's of later development.

Glad you liked the return to basics approach I took to the article--my first draft (which no, I don't have) was steeped in Mystara-isms and split the lupin community into nomads and Renardois lupins. We (Matthew Sernett and I) talked about that and decided we needed a more generic version of the race to make them appeal to more players and DMs. Thus the more generalized version that appears in Dragon.

I really liked all of Bruce's "breeds" of Lupins when I first read that article, but more and more over the years I have grown to dislike the idea of "sub-races"- no wood elves/gray elves/high elves/etc. for me! So that's why I was glad to see the Lupin article just boil them down to one "main" race. (Looking at that original Dragon article, it would be very easy to create feats and things to represent the different breeds of Lupin. And except for two breeds- which are small creatures, rather than medium- there is no reason to create any sub-races.)

I never liked the lupin or rakastan breeds so there was no chance they were going to make it into the article. ;) I like your feats idea, though. Hopefully something like that will appear in the Vaults.

That being said, I do have one question for the author. Why did you decide to make the Lupins Monstrous Humanoids rather than Humanoids? It's kind of an arbitrary thing, admittedly (and I've gone back and forth on it myself). In the end, I decided to make them Humanoids for one reason- that being that the Monstrous Manual labeled Gnolls as Humanoid (Gnoll) rather than Monstrous Humanoid. I think the Gnoll probably should be a Monstrous Humanoid (from the picture, and its legs, it looks even more "monstrous" than the merely furry and dog-headed Lupin), but since the core has it as humanoid, that's the label I gave to the Lupin as well.

This would be another result of the discussion Matthew Sernett and I had regardin the lupins. It's sort of a balance issue and sort of a magazine needs issue. The balance comes in that the scent ability is too good to give a player character race (hence the lupin's lesser scent ability) but that the lupins really didn't have a lot else going for them. They're basically humans with dog heads and some doglike personality traits, but we didn't want to give them human racial abilities like skill points or bonus feats. We settled on making t hem monstrous humanoids, which gives them darkvision and makes them immune to like four spells in the game (charm person, dominate person, enlarge person, and hold person). It's not a huge bump, but it certainly might come in handy in certain fights. The magazine needs part is that we sorta wanted to try to do a Winning Races article for all of the different monster types (humanoid, monstrous humanoid, giant, and so on) and so we needed a monstrous humanoid. I should point out that we're no longer looking to do this, as we later realized that such a task is nearly impossible.

Just curious as to your reasoning, though I suspect it's similar to my own. Not a complaint. (The complaint would be the arbitrary rankings established by the core materials- isn't a "Giant" really just a big Humanoid?)

Yeah, I'm glad they got rid of the silly beast type. ;)

I really liked the aproach of no stats modifiers! Why not a natural attack?
As general overview, great job i'll use them! thanks!!
I look forward for the remaning races...

Thanks. I specifically wanted to avoid using racial ability score modifiers because I see them, from a designer's perspective, as a crutch. They're something that can be tacked onto a race when you've got no other ideas for it, which to me (as it was to Matt Sernett) is lame and is why we put in our Writers Guidelines not to do it.

We played with the idea of a natural attack, but now I can't remember why we didn't do it. Balance? Not in the original? Oh I just don't recall. Sorry.

Since Erik Mona has mentioned it on other message boards I guess it's okay for me to mention here. The next Mystara race to get a 3.5 Mike McArtor update will be the diaboli. Talk about a fun race to write up.
#31

npc_dave

Nov 02, 2004 15:17:59
I really liked all of Bruce's "breeds" of Lupins when I first read that article, but more and more over the years I have grown to dislike the idea of "sub-races"- no wood elves/gray elves/high elves/etc. for me!

Well, we don't have some of those, but Mystara has water elves, wood elves, shadow elves, Belcadiz elves, savage elves, ice elves, Blacklore elves and the pseudo-ancient elves if you count the Dragonking books.
#32

Cthulhudrew

Nov 02, 2004 15:31:24
Well, we don't have some of those, but Mystara has water elves, wood elves, shadow elves, Belcadiz elves, savage elves, ice elves, Blacklore elves and the pseudo-ancient elves if you count the Dragonking books.

True, but with a couple of notable exceptions (shadow and aquatic elves) there were never any mechanical distinctions between the elf "sub-races" like there were in AD&D (and in 3E with the wood/high/gray/etc. categories). Which is my primary gripe.

To me, it's either go all the way or don't do it at all. IE, if it's good for the dwarves, elves, etc., then why don't humans get subraces? The old "humans are good at everything" argument just doesn't jibe with me. As I see it, there should simply be a base race, with any variation being simply cultural/ethnic, except in certain cases.

Case in point, you mention the shadowelves. These I see as being a distinct "sub-race", primarily due to the fact that there actually *are* physical differences in the race due to evolutionary/magical/whatever changes. They have darkvision rather than low-light vision, to see underground. Their ears are larger, because hearing is much more important than seeing in the dark caves they live in, so they get a better Listen bonus, but suffer reduced Spot bonus. Similarly, the Aquarendi have physical changes (gills, webbed hands and feet) that set them apart from surface elves.

To me, the whole "Gray elves are more studious than High Elves, so suffer Strength penalties while gaining Intelligence bonuses" just seems wrong to me. There isn't any real physical justification given (as to why there are anatomical differences), it seems more like a cultural tendency than anything. So that's why I dislike "sub-races" as they are generally presented.

Anyway, getting kind of off-topic here.
#33

Hugin

Nov 02, 2004 17:28:06
The next Mystara race to get a 3.5 Mike McArtor update will be the diaboli. Talk about a fun race to write up.

That sounds interesting indeed! Keep plugging for us. And I agree with Cthulhudrew, keep the subs with different stats to a minimum, cultural differences are plenty good. Thanks for making us part of the process.
#34

havard

Nov 03, 2004 11:43:03
I really liked all of Bruce's "breeds" of Lupins when I first read that article, but more and more over the years I have grown to dislike the idea of "sub-races"- no wood elves/gray elves/high elves/etc. for me! So that's why I was glad to see the Lupin article just boil them down to one "main" race. (Looking at that original Dragon article, it would be very easy to create feats and things to represent the different breeds of Lupin. And except for two breeds- which are small creatures, rather than medium- there is no reason to create any sub-races.)

I sort of agree with you on the subrace issue. The one cool thing about the breeds from Bruce's article is that the description for each breed provided setting information about where Lupins or Rakastas might be found on Mystara. This included retrofitting the races into the Known World, but also provided information about previously undeveloped regions like Davania and Skothar.

Whether ability score modifiers is a good thing or not, I'm not really sure, but at least for Lupins, I'd be willing to give a non-modified race a shot. I still haven't gotten the magazine though. Dropped by the gaming store earlier today, but they said they hadn't received them yet. They are supposed to save a copy for me, but I feel some paranoia sneaking up on me about that.
If you keep making Mystara stuff Mikey, I'll probably have to get a subscription in order.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Diaboli. I always liked the race, even though the illustration from the Mystara Monsterous Compedium didn't really do it for me. I think this race has a lot of potential. I am curious to how the whole Nightmare Dimension fits into the 3e cosmology, or are we doing a Demiplane thing again?


Håvard
#35

zombiegleemax

Nov 04, 2004 0:08:03
Since Erik Mona has mentioned it on other message boards I guess it's okay for me to mention here. The next Mystara race to get a 3.5 Mike McArtor update will be the diaboli. Talk about a fun race to write up.

Diaboli? Who are they???

Yours,
Ignorant Woodrake
#36

Cthulhudrew

Nov 04, 2004 0:37:45
Diaboli? Who are they???

They are the Nightmare Dimensional Plane's equivalent of humans. They look essentially like the "traditional" depiction of devils- red skinned, hooves, forked tail, horns, wielding tridents. They were first introduced in the Immortals' set, and they are described as mostly of the same attitudes as humans (not particularly good or evil) but of a chaotic bent (as chaos is to Nightmare as Law is to Normal- ie, anarchies are the norm in the Nightmare DP, where orderly society is the norm in Normal DP.)

They were converted into AD&D terms in the Monstrous Compendium: Mystara, where they are inexplicably given hair (at least some varieties)- they were originally (and explicitly) described as hairless. Not a big deal, I guess, although I think it made them look way too much like Fauns/Satyrs (which we already have).
#37

havard

Nov 04, 2004 6:47:31
I had forgotten that the original Diaboli were hairless. Interesting. I know they were supposed to be purple, but that illustration in the Monsterous Compendium made them look more weird than scary looking. Come to think of it I really didn't like the coloring used for any of the creatures in that book....

Håvard
#38

zombiegleemax

Nov 04, 2004 11:37:37
If you keep making Mystara stuff Mikey, I'll probably have to get a subscription in order.

I'll see what I can do. ;)

I am curious to how the whole Nightmare Dimension fits into the 3e cosmology, or are we doing a Demiplane thing again?

Not sure I can answer that, actually. All I can say is there are sidebars...
#39

havard

Nov 05, 2004 7:32:45
Not sure I can answer that, actually. All I can say is there are sidebars...

Interesting...
Do you know what issue this article will appear in yet? Do you have other goodies in store for us?

Håvard
#40

zombiegleemax

Nov 05, 2004 10:45:27
Do you know what issue this article will appear in yet? Do you have other goodies in store for us?

Issue #327.

As far as other goodies go...none in the immediate future, but one never knows when I'll be able to sneak in a Known World reference here or there. ;)