But what do we know of the time before Vecna's apotheosis? What were the boundries of his empire? How long ago did he rule as a lich-king? What level was he prior to his ascension, and how old was he before his death? Do we know for certain he was even human to begin with?
--I'm curious as to what is known, canonically, about Vecna NB
He's not even a diety, IMC.
I believe there were some pretty darn awful 2E products about this. Ravenloft might have even been involved. I've suppressed the details out of concern for my sanity.
Ah, I take it you refer to the God-awful final module series for 2e involving Vecna? Yeah, those were pretty bad...
He's not even a diety, IMC.
Why not? He's a far cooler deity than, say Iuz.
--Vecna has some cool vibes going on NB
http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1873
My only problem with Vecna as a deity is that I would have added 'lich' to his portfolio. I mean, I would take Vecna as the 'god of lichedom' over Mellifleur (anybody remember that one?) any day!
Anyway, here are all the references to Vecna from JZ's index:
Vecna {Chained God}{Dying King}{Maimed Lord}{Whispered One}
(Lich)[Deity][NPC]
COG:FFF - 80
DMG1 - 161
DRG#82 - 59
DRG#188 - 37,32
DRG#225 - 49,50,51,53
DRG#241 - 75
DRG#292 - 68,71,72
DRG#294 - 77,92
DRG#298 - 77
DRG#299 - 101,103
DVD
EW - 41,43,44
FTAC - 38
IVID
LGG - 13,15,50,51,58,64,104,131,133,173,180,186
LGJ#0 - 6
LGJ#2 - 19
LGJ#3 - 18
LGJ#4 - 12,13,16
LOG - 5
PGTG - 18-21,23,26,27,36
SLV - 10,17,18,90,95
TAB - 2,3,65,98
TAB:AM - 5
TD - 7
VR
WGA4
WGR2 - 32,39
Check it out here:
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=220
By some odd reason it is not working with Wizard's you're leaving cry baby page.
My only problem with Vecna as a deity is that I would have added 'lich' to his portfolio. I mean, I would take Vecna as the 'god of lichedom' over Mellifleur (anybody remember that one?) any day!
Aw, man, I love Mellifleur. The accidental god; evil, but forced always to oppose other evil gods; known more for his melifluous tongue than his magic. Carl Sargent, your gods were pure poetry.
I like Vecna better as god of secrets than god of the undead, simply because it makes him more focused and nasty. Vecna doesn't care about other liches; he cares only about the knowledge he can wrest from them. A blackmailer, an archivist, or someone trying to conceal an illicit affair is as likely to pray to the Whispered One as a skeletal magus, assuming they're desperate enough to be into self-mutilation. That's interesting to me, perhaps because it's surprising.
I also like other gods who are liches even though their portfolios don't strictly require it: Diirinka, for example.
Aw, man, I love Mellifleur. The accidental god; evil, but forced always to oppose other evil gods; known more for his melifluous tongue than his magic. Carl Sargent, your gods were pure poetry.
Yeah, Mellifluer was kind of cool. Still, I rabidly dislike the idea of an "accidental god," preferring the gods in my games to be lords of all they survey, as opposed to lucky ducks who merely were in the right place at the right time.
--hates me some accidental gods NB
I like Vecna better as god of secrets than god of the undead, simply because it makes him more focused and nasty. Vecna doesn't care about other liches; he cares only about the knowledge he can wrest from them. A blackmailer, an archivist, or someone trying to conceal an illicit affair is as likely to pray to the Whispered One as a skeletal magus, assuming they're desperate enough to be into self-mutilation. That's interesting to me, perhaps because it's surprising.
Being one doesn't forbid being the other as well.
Why couldn't Vecna be the god of dark secrets AND liches? I wasn't suggesting removing anything from his portfolio. Only adding 'lich' to it.
Besides, given that most liches care only about power through knowledge, I would find it deliciously ironic that their god would blackmail them for it.
I mean, to them Vecna would be the 'top lich' because he is simply so good at being one.
Consider: you're a lich and you want to gain more knowledge, having willingly become an undead in order to do so far longer than any normal living being. But there is an 'uber' lich out there (Vecna) who is even greedier than you are for knowledge and, since it's more powerful than you are, you are forced to yield whenever he shows up.
As a lich, you couldn't help but secretly admire and envy Vecna. Here is a lich who doesn't even have to dig through dusty tomes to get dark secrets since his followers do it for him! What lich wouldn't aspire to that? Ten times the knowledge for ten times less efforts!
Aw, man, I love Mellifleur. The accidental god; evil, but forced always to oppose other evil gods; known more for his melifluous tongue than his magic. Carl Sargent, your gods were pure poetry.
I like Vecna better as god of secrets than god of the undead, simply because it makes him more focused and nasty. Vecna doesn't care about other liches; he cares only about the knowledge he can wrest from them. A blackmailer, an archivist, or someone trying to conceal an illicit affair is as likely to pray to the Whispered One as a skeletal magus, assuming they're desperate enough to be into self-mutilation. That's interesting to me, perhaps because it's surprising.
I also like other gods who are liches even though their portfolios don't strictly require it: Diirinka, for example.
kuak, in all these years i have played Greyhawk, i never read about this guy? How is he?
kuak, in all these years i have played Greyhawk, i never read about this guy? How is he?
He was rather well, last I heard :heehee
Seriously, Mellifleur comes straight out of this book (2E):
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd1/dmgr4.htm
(by Carl Sargent, no less)
It isn't strictly GH Material but there are a lots of hints linking it to that setting
Long story short, Mellifleur became god of the liches through a divine 'mistake' and has been struggling ever since to retain his godly power (since it was intended for another and his 'creator' isn't too happy with the result)
Why couldn't Vecna be the god of dark secrets AND liches?
It unfocuses him. Being the god of liches implies some responsibility over them, when he'd really prefer to keep him aim sharpened on one target. It's hard enough for him with his lack of depth perception and all.
As a lich, you couldn't help but secretly admire and envy Vecna. Here is a lich who doesn't even have to dig through dusty tomes to get dark secrets since his followers do it for him! What lich wouldn't aspire to that?
Oh, for sure I agree with that. Liches have got to give props to the big V. But then, they have to respect Boccob and Wee Jas as well, not to mention Nerull and Kyuss. Even Zagyg is living the dream. Even Keoghtom. This doesn't mean they those other gods are gods of liches specifically. They're just worthy of a lich's respect.
And personally, I :inlove: all three of the Vecna modules. Vecna Lives! was the best and Die, Vecna Die was a bit boring (being so long), but the amazing story behind the three modules has always captivated my imagination. Half of my home campaigns center around Vecna in some form or fashion. He is one of the most visible deific influences on the Flanaess other than Iuz and those three modules (the first in particular) do a masterful job of bringing out his importance to the campaign setting as a whole.
He really is the perfect villain. He is utterly evil, relentlessly pursues power, and a diabolical genius, not to mention undead.
While we're on the subject of Vecna, can someone help me figure out the explanation for his split personality disorder? The first reference I see to his alignment is in Vecna Lives! where he is listed as LE (although he has many CE cultists in that mod). In Vecna Reborn (Ravenloft) his alignment is not given (to the best of my knowledge) but his followers are all CE or NE. In Die, Vecna, Die! his alignment is once again LE. However when the Player's Guide to Greyhawk was released, he is listed as CE. Third edition seems to have compromised between the two, Vecna having settled on evil for evil's sake at NE (IMHO the best fit). My question, is there ever an explanation for this, or is it an inexplicable different author/conversion issue? I don't recall there ever being a reference to an alignment shift in any of the Vecna modules and none is given in the LGG. He's once again entering my home campaign and I'm trying to decide whether to just use one incarnation or all three (assuming there is a rational explanation).
While we're on the subject of Vecna, can someone help me figure out the explanation for his split personality disorder?
The explanation seems to be that they tried a bunch of different alignments on Vecna until they finally found one that fit. I remember Sean K. Reynolds saying something about Vecna being "as he always should have been" in the 3e Player's Handbook.
I prefer NE for him myself, but I'm not that picky.
Anyway, I don't think there's any kind of in-game reason. Each change in alignment retconned the previous one.
What is known of Vecna prior to his apotheosis to godhood? We know he ruled a mighty Flan empire, was a ridiculously powerful lich, crafted the Sword of Kas for his leiutenant, Kas, and was later destroyed in battle against that same servant. The battle was so severe that all that was left of Vecna was his Hand and his Eye, which became artifacts. We finally know that, some time after his death, Vecna ascended to godhood.
But what do we know of the time before Vecna's apotheosis? What were the boundries of his empire? How long ago did he rule as a lich-king? What level was he prior to his ascension, and how old was he before his death? Do we know for certain he was even human to begin with?
--I'm curious as to what is known, canonically, about Vecna NB
no vecna just got his hand cut off and his eye poked out the rest of him is intact it was Kas that was obiliterated
1. It gratuitously slaughtered established NPCs "because". Disrupting a setting like that is a very bad idea.
2. The resolution demanded a very literal deus ex machina. Worse, it required an Evil one that would cause alignment disruptions for certain character classes. Even worse than that, it ignored the possibility of alternatives that should have been obvious to anyone with knowledge of the Greyhawk canon.
Beyond that, the design was only fair at best.
Vecna Reborn was a poor module. It broke one serious rule of adventure/setting design.
1. It usurped establish NPCs/icons of one setting and forcibly thrust them into another setting with a presumption of permanence.
Beyond that, the design was less than stellar, relying too heavily on moral quandries while still requiring being a hack module.
Die Vecna, Die! was either a decent module or a horrific module, depending on how many of the serious, and minor design issues offended you.
1. As a serious issue, it referred to a number of notorious gamer in-jokes. While assuredly hilarious to see them in print to those who knew them, those who didn't likely found the encounters referenced to be silly at best.
2. As another serious issue, it once again dropped an establish NPC/icon into another setting. Aggravating that as it were, it also referred to material in supplements and adventures considered specific to certain settins, and thus somewhat unknown to many players.
3. As a minor issue, it referred to changes in a module for a setting that fans of that setting loathed.
As it happens, none of those were an issue for me, so while I don't think it is the best module from its author, I don't find it the abomination that many have called it. And indeed, overall I think it is the best of the series.
Vecna Reborn was a poor module. It broke one serious rule of adventure/setting design.
1. It usurped establish NPCs/icons of one setting and forcibly thrust them into another setting with a presumption of permanence.
You mean Vecna in Ravenloft? That wasn't the module's fault, though; it had already been done in the Domains of Dread hardcover. Vecna Reborn was just utilizing a character that was by that point considered to belong there.
The major problem Planescape fans had with Die Vecna Die! wasn't that Vecna properly belongs in Greyhawk (since all worlds are assumed to be part of Planescape, and many Planescape supplements referred to Greyhawk gods and NPCs), but that Vecna in Sigil breaks one of that setting's cardinal rules - no gods allowed. That the module referred to changes in Faction War wasn't so much an issue as the fact that it mostly ignored them. And no one liked that it made The Lady of Pain ask for help, which to me at least is is far worse than letting an occasional god in.
I've also heard complaints about the PCs being forced to graft an eccentric array of Vecna's lost organs on themselves (far more than just the eye and hand).
But, of course, all that can be fixed. I'm not the best one to whine about Die, Vecna, Die! because I (A) don't own it and (B) never really cared about it.
What is known of Vecna prior to his apotheosis to godhood?
I can't believe no one has mentioned
Vecna: Hand of the Revenant yet.
We know he ruled a mighty Flan empire, was a ridiculously powerful lich, crafted the Sword of Kas for his leiutenant, Kas, and was later destroyed in battle against that same servant. The battle was so severe that all that was left of Vecna was his Hand and his Eye, which became artifacts.
Nope. As someone else pointed out, Kas was destroyed. IIRC, Kas lopped off Vecna's hand & stabbed his eye out. IIRC, VHotR, has one of Vecna's hands & an eye getting destroyed by holy Pholtine light, but it's one part one of a two part story, so all has not been revealed concerning the origins of Vec's hand & eye.
But what do we know of the time before Vecna's apotheosis? What were the boundries of his empire?
Vecna Lives! states that the empire was in the Sheldomar Valley, & a fairly recent (past year or so) Dungeon mag featuring Evard mentioned that Vec's empire wascentered in the Rushmoors.
Do we know for certain he was even human to begin with?
Yes. According to VHotR, he was Flan.
I wrote this a long time ago:
Vecna looked up from the stack of maps of the Flanaess and diagrams of the planes of existence he had been writing on. "What is it, General?" he asked impatiently to the man who had been trying to sneak up on him.
In answer, Kas drew his blade.
Vecna looked merely disgusted. "A coup? Is that what this is supposed to be? I have more important matters to attend to. Leave me to them."
Kill him, said the sword.
Kas swung his blade in an arc, fast as lightning, silent as winter chill. It came within two fingers of the lich-king, and stopped as if it had hit the roots of the world.
Vecna released a wave of energy on his second-in-command, all ghostly teeth and lashing tails. Vecna's spell howled in ecstacy as it enveloped the warlord, penetrating his flesh and sinews and digging into his bones.
What is this? Kas silently demanded of his weapon. Have you betrayed me?
The lich's shackles are subtle, complained the sword. Kill him anyway.
Kas had already thrust the blade at Vecna a second, third, and fourth time, ignoring the magic that was eating him from inside. The fifth time he was rewarded by a satisfying crunch. Vecna backed up a step. The spells weakened. Kas smiled grimly at the thought that his own skill and craft were succeeding where the artifact could not.
Vecna had already summoned more allies, semi-transparent wraiths and ur-demons bound to him by strands of magical power. Again, Kas ignored the onslaught to concentrate on their source.
The fires in the lich's skull burned brighter. From the walls of the tower bony warriors grew like pale roots, but at the speed of elementals.
Kas paused long enough for his former master to escape into the next room. With the sorcerer gone, energy flared back into the artifact. What are you doing? demanded the sword.
Kas ignored it. Instead, he looked inward, tracing the lines Vecna had hooked in his own heart long ago, and following them to the ones that had been woven into the lich's present allies.
One by one, Kas broke them, releasing the creatures to their fates in the Underworld. He ran into the next room.
Vecna was gone, of course. Kas concentrated on the geas they still shared. Follow him, he instructed his weapon.
Suddenly they were floating in a sea of darkness and pure cold. The plane sucked hungrily on Kas' soul.
"You are persistent," Vecna admitted. "Fool."
The sword was dead again, but Kas struck with it anyway. The lich seemed to be empowered by the same force that was steadily weakening the human warrior. At Vecna's gesture, great shapes moved toward him, almost indistinguishable from the greater night.
Kas suddenly embraced his lord in a massive bear hug. No longer bleeding off into the plane's chill, his strength fed Vecna directly. Surprised, Vecna drank.
Kas allowed the lich to take most of his energy. He began to wither. As he was losing consciousness, he used the last of his awareness to tie the geas-cord the two shared into a sturdy knot.
Kas' soul transversed Vecna's body in a loop, with the lich-lord neither able to consume it nor release it. Patiently, he began to unbind the clumsy thing. To his horror, he found that Kas' soul-cord had cut off his own channels of magical power.
Enhanced by the womblike energies of the negative plane, the surfeit of power grew. Vecna's spells began to bloat like drowned worms as they struggled for freedom in his breast.
Panicking, Vecna picked faster at the strands. The energy within him continued to build.
There. Only a few more. Vecna freed the channel to one of his hands, then an eye.
Vecna exploded.
Magical energy scattered across the plane, following Boccob's dragon paths to the myriad worlds. The sword of Kas fell through the breach to realms unknown, plotting revenge from the moment it hit the alien air. The open channels in Vecna's eye and hand caught some of the mana and focused it, shaping it along the patterns their owner had built in them over the millenia. They, too, landed far apart in strange lands, where they began to work their way home.
The site of Vecna's defeat burned in the negative plane like an icy stain. The powerful magic eventually attracted seekers of power, who built a citadel and tethered it to the plane of Ash.
The fates of the souls of Vecna and Kas are left for another story.
Chopping off body parts=crits. How else would you sell to your players that THEY had lost an eye or hand.
Maybe he lost everything but his eye and hand (as in my story above).
Someone who is mangled by a subordinate weilding a weapon he himself created and that has no real power to hurt you besides it's +6 has no right to be a god. Or even a lich or mage in my opinion.
Possibly, he is a lich after all(reforming and what not). I have always thought that story of Kas and Vecna was a little odd. Let me ask you this. Out of those two who do you think is the smarter? Vecna? Then why did he get caught unaware by an underling?
Someone who is mangled by a subordinate weilding a weapon he himself created and that has no real power to hurt you besides it's +6 has no right to be a god. Or even a lich or mage in my opinion.
Perhaps because he wasn't omniscient?
One shouldn't infer that just because he was powerful and a lich, he couldn't make mistakes. There is always someone stronger, quicker or smarter (if not plain luckier) than yourself out there. The sooner you learn that, the longer you'll last.
Underestimating one's opponents does seem to be the weakness shared by all would-be world-conquerors out there...
Underestimating one's opponents does seem to be the weakness shared by all would-be world-conquerors out there...
Can I get a Hell Yeah!
Kas rolled 20.
Vecna rolled 1.
Every DM has been there. Hours of rolling up that powerful nemesis wasted cruelly by the will of Istus.
Chopping off body parts=crits. How else would you sell to your players that THEY had lost an eye or hand.
Technically speaking, undead are immune to crits because they don't depend on any of their organs to function. Therefore, Vecna could lose an eye and a hand to a vorpal sword - it just wouldn't affect him in any way whatsoever.
Anyhow, I think trying to describe such epic legends in combat mechanics is a mistake.
Perhaps because he wasn't omniscient?
One shouldn't infer that just because he was powerful and a lich, he couldn't make mistakes. There is always someone stronger, quicker or smarter (if not plain luckier) than yourself out there. The sooner you learn that, the longer you'll last.
Underestimating one's opponents does seem to be the weakness shared by all would-be world-conquerors out there...
A Godlike being or someone aspiring to be a god shouldn't make those kind of mistakes. It's totally amateur. I'm shocked you disagree.
A Godlike being or someone aspiring to be a god shouldn't make those kind of mistakes. It's totally amateur. I'm shocked you disagree.
The way Sif neglected to ask mistletoe not to harm Baldur?
The way Cronus was suckered by Rhea swallowing a rock instead of Zeus?
The way Osiris got himself chopped up by Set?
When it comes to classical mythology, to err is human, to really screw up big time is divine.
HAHHAAHHAHAHA!!!! :D I haven't looked at it like that. I originally was just trying to make a point but as always I got suckered in to writing more posts. Do you agree with my other points?
Not really.
As Elendur said, when describing an epic event, game mechanics are rather irrelevant.
Aside from the fact that if you really insist, they've added a spell that lets you crit undead, and Kas could have access to that, and that there are feats that let you do almost anything, when it comes right down to it, writing based on game mechanics is typically pretty ripe at best.
A legend, particularly this kind of legend, shouldn't have to rely on or be limited by, game mechanics at all. Write a cool story, and leave it at that. The only time a game mechnic is relevant is if you want the players to recreate a legendary or prophetic method of doing something. And even that is relatively easy to manage without a direct reference to some rules element.
Beyond that, I like Rip's version of the end of Vecna myself, much as I like the LG Geoff Triad's version of his origin. And that's enough for me.
I think the eye and the hand were just remnants left over from his defeat
I think that was the original intention, yes; Vecna and Kas fought, there was a great conflagration, and only a single hand and eye remained.
And thanks, Sam.
How can you cut out someone's eye with a sword?
It's easy. Turn sword aflat and stick in the place a little lower eyeball, but not in the skull. Then turn sword along circle around the eyeball from one side, then form other side. At the end raise a little the sword's tip to cut eye's nerve. It's done!