Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 11, 2005 2:45:53	played dark sun for years prior to 3e. just getting back into dark sun. the only thing i really see missing is wild talents and the whole populace being psionic. am i missing psionics in the athas.org conversion or in the 3e psionics handbook? does anyone have any good houserules? help me out. the game i will be running starts next tuesday!
#2 Kamelion May 11, 2005 3:30:59	Check out the Hidden Talent feat on page 67 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook - that gives you a level 1 power and a couple of psionic power points. You can also take the Psionic Talent feat (p50) to get more power points. Overchannel (p49) allows you to manifest your Hidden Talent power as if you were a higher level manifester and Talented (p51) stops you taking damage when doing so. However, I can't think of any way to get powers of above 1st level without taking levels in an actual psionic class.
#3 murkaf May 11, 2005 6:54:34	the only thing i really see missing is wild talents and the whole populace being psionic. Actually, only PCs and significant NPCs had Wild Talents... My little munchkin houserule: Every player has a free feat which must be chosen from: -Hidden Talent -Hostile Mind -Psionic Hole That is the way I found to balance the fact that PCs are always getting their stuff confiscated and thrown into slavery,the CR/experience award system assuming that characters will be correctly equipped and will obtain a just amount of equipement or money from an encounter.
#4 Pennarin May 11, 2005 7:08:09	Ok, insanely, I have lost - again - the Cannibalize Power feat that Gab and/or Jon made way back. Anyone got it please post it here: I'd like to have it back and I'm sure Essex would like it for his house rules.
#5 gab May 11, 2005 8:11:12	Here's a version I found in a 2002 DS3 feats doc: Cannibalized Power [General] You learn to use a psionic power at the expense of your health. Prerequisites: Starting Feat Only Benefit: This feat gives you access to a single high-level psionic power, but you may only use this power at great expense. You may temporarily cannibalize one point of the power's primary ability (Charisma for a Telepathic power, Dexterity for a Psychoportive power, etc) per power point normally required to manifest this power as a Psion. You may alternately spend power points to manifest this ability, if you have sufficient power points to do so. Manifesting this power is a full round action, and you may not upgrade or scale this power. You manifest this power as a first level manifester, even if you acquire levels in a psionic class. Once the power's primary ability score drops below 10 + power level, you may no longer manifest the power, until the primary ability is then restored to the minimum required to manifest the power Special: Choose your cannibalized power from the following list: attraction, aura sight, aversion, biocurrent, biofeedback, body equilibrium, chameleon, combat prescience, conceal thoughts, concussion, condense water*, cone of sound, control air, control body, control flames, control light, control object, control sound, daze, demoralize, destiny dissonance, detect thoughts, dismiss ectoplasm, dissipating touch, dream surveyor*, electroplasmic cloud*, empathic transfer, empathy, environment*, expanded vision, far hand, feather fall, feel light, firefall, hammer, hibernation*, immovability, know location, lend virtue*, lesser concussion, lesser phase*, lesser telekinesis*, levitate, lesser lightning skin*, mass manipulation, matter agitation, metaphysical self*, mindwhisper*, object reading, painful touch, poison sense, produce venom*, psychic impersonation*, psychic tracking*, psycholuminescence, see sound, sense psionics, photosynthesis*, sense psychoportation, sensibility to psychic impressions, sever the tie, static discharge*, steadfast gaze, stomp, suggestion, true worship*, undead sense, vigor, wisdom of the land*.
#6 Sysane May 11, 2005 8:46:40	Regarding conversions from 2e to 3.5 for those characters that rolled ridiculously well on the wild talent chart, I suggest using the Phrenic Template from the XPH as a guideline. Its what I ended up using for one of my player's characters. His character originally possessed 14 powers from that broken mechanic. Talk about a DM's worse nightmare.
#7 Pennarin May 11, 2005 8:49:40	In light of the XPH, couldn't this feat be adapted? Lets say someone starts with Hidden Talent, thus with a 1st-level power. Then you take Cannibalized Power. What it does is it allows you to take damage to manifest a higher level power that replaces the power of your Hidden Talent feat, using rules adapted from the Overchannel feat: you replace permanently your 1st-level power with a 2nd-level power requiring you to take 1d8 points of damage for each manifestation, or with a 3rd-level power requiring you to take 3d8 points of damage for each manifestation. Just an idea, but it could work. Thoughts?
#8 Sysane May 11, 2005 9:02:50	What if a mechanic of stackable "wild talent feats" was developed? The feats would require the character to meet prerequisites before they could be selected like most other feats. You start off with wild talent, move on to greater wild talent, improved greater talent, and so forth and so on? Each feat would grant some power points, and grant the character access to higher level powers.
#9 Pennarin May 11, 2005 9:14:57	The number of feats that apply to "wild talents" has to be kept down, or else a character spends too many feats on those booster feats, while another character takes a level or two of psion or wilder for the same result, or a superior one. In the proposed feat I mentionned above, it would be even better if it married the characteristics of Hidden Talent and Overchannel, allowing access to a fixed higher level power at the cost of damage. Better than spending 1 feat for Hidden Talent and 1 for Cannibalized Power.
#10 Sysane May 11, 2005 9:24:54	The number of feats that apply to "wild talents" has to be kept down, or else a character spends too many feats on those booster feats, while another character takes a level or two of psion or wilder for the same result, or a superior one. True, but the same can be said for monks and rangers. A character can either take the improved unarmed combat feat or just take a level of monk. A player could take two weapon fighting feat or take two levels of ranger. A character that doesn't want to be a psionic class could have the option of expending several feats and still stay true to other non-psionic classes. I'm not proposing that the feats make characters the equals of straight using psionic classes, just that they have the option to increase the level of powers they have available to them through level advancement and taking a series of feats. Think along the lines of a character working his way up to taking the whirlwind attack feat. Its a gradual progression.
#11 kalthandrix May 11, 2005 9:47:50	The number of feats that apply to "wild talents" has to be kept down, or else a character spends too many feats on those booster feats, while another character takes a level or two of psion or wilder for the same result, or a superior one. In the proposed feat I mentionned above, it would be even better if it married the characteristics of Hidden Talent and Overchannel, allowing access to a fixed higher level power at the cost of damage. Better than spending 1 feat for Hidden Talent and 1 for Cannibalized Power. How about this. The Cannibalized Power feat deals d4 (or d6) points of damage, half of which is subduel. I would keep the dmg low to encourage use, but all power has it's price. The character has a manifester lvl = to half his character lvl, and can augment the power as per the rules in the XPH. This would mean that a 10th lvl character would manifest their power as a 5th lvl psionicist and be able to spend up to the equivalent of 5 PSP's to activate their power, but doing so would inflict 5d4 pts of dmg with half being subduel. On a side note, what are the (*) for in the power selection area of the feat- are they from 3.0 DS material and the Mind's Eye material from the WotC site? Does anyone want to update the power list to bring it up to 3.5 XPH (wit the powers from the DS material of course)? I would but I am at work. :D
#12 Sysane May 11, 2005 11:27:52	Here would be the second feat in the chain of wild/hidden talent feats I'm proposing: IMPROVED HIDDEN TALENT [PSIONIC] Your potential to manifest your psionic wild talent increases. Prerequisite: Chr 13, Hidden Talent. Benefit: You can manifest your psionic talent as a manifester equal to your class level minus 2 (minimum of a 1st level manifester). Additionally, your Charisma modifier grants you bonus powers points. See Table: Ability Modifers and Bonus Power Points for details. Special: You cannot take or use this feat if you have levels in a manifester class.
#13 Pennarin May 11, 2005 13:00:17	Since I can't use actual the text of the Hidden Talent feat, it not being in the SRD, here is the best I can do. Cannibalized Talent [General] Your mind wakes to a powerful and previously unrealized talent for psionics. Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken at 1st level. Benefit: [Read here the first paragraph of the Hidden Talent feat, exchanging the mention of that feat for Cannibalized Talent; replace the phrase that mentions power points with the following: "As a psionic character, you gain a reserve of 3 power points (if you have chosen a 2nd-level power) or 5 power points (if you have chosen a 3rd-level power), and you can take......."] When you take this feat, choose one 2nd or 3rd-level power from any psionic class list. [Read here the rest of the second paragraph of the Hidden Talent feat] If you have chosen a 2nd-level power, you take 3d8 points of damage each time you manifest the power, and if you have chosen a 3rd-level power, you take 5d8 points of damage each time you manifest the power. Note: This is an expanded version of the Hidden Talent feat, intended for use in high-psionics campaigns.
#14 Sysane May 11, 2005 13:20:35	Since I can't use actual the text of the Hidden Talent feat, it not being in the SRD, here is the best I can do. Cannibalized Talent [General] Your mind wakes to a powerful and previously unrealized talent for psionics. Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken at 1st level. Benefit: [Read here the first paragraph of the Hidden Talent feat, exchanging the mention of that feat for Cannibalized Talent; replace the phrase that mentions power points with the following: "As a psionic character, you gain a reserve of 3 power points (if you have chosen a 2nd-level power) or 5 power points (if you have chosen a 3rd-level power), and you can take......."] When you take this feat, choose one 2nd or 3rd-level power from any psionic class list. [Read here the rest of the second paragraph of the Hidden Talent feat] If you have chosen a 2nd-level power, you take 3d8 points of damage each time you manifest the power, and if you have chosen a 3rd-level power, you take 5d8 points of damage each time you manifest the power. Note: This is an expanded version of the Hidden Talent feat, intended for use in high-psionics campaigns. The feat as written would only really benefit a very high level character who could take the huge amounts of damage. For a feat thats meant to be taken at first level its not all that beneficial. It would be suicide for a character below 4th level.
#15 kalthandrix May 11, 2005 14:01:43	Read my previous post for Cannibilized Power and make the feat posted by Pennarin improved Cannibilized Power- with changes being to making Cannibilized Power a prereq. and maybe a base Will save of +2 and cannot have any manifester class levels (no levels as a psionicist, ect..)
#16 Sysane May 11, 2005 14:29:02	Second in the wild/hidden talent feat chain: GREATER HIDDEN TALENT [PSIONIC] You unlock another hidden talent of higher level. Prerequisite: Manifester level 4th, Hidden Talent, Improved Hidden Talent. Benefit: You can select and manifest a power of 2nd level. You can choose a 2nd level power from any discipline or class list.
#17 jon_oracle_of_athas May 11, 2005 15:29:22	His character originally possessed 14 powers from that broken mechanic. Talk about a DM's worse nightmare. You think that's bad? Try 34...
#18 Sysane May 11, 2005 15:35:37	You think that's bad? Try 34... Damn bro. That character must have rolled 100 five times on the percentile dice to get that many powers.
#19 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 11, 2005 15:50:23	On another subject.... Essex - you aren't the same Essex I know, are you?
#20 ruhl-than_sage May 11, 2005 22:27:49	Another option rather than using a damage penalty for using these stronger powers is to use the fatigue/exhaustion rules. A character could become fatigued when activating a higher level power, and then exhausted when activating it if already fatigued. If thats not enough for you, than you could have the activation cause ability score damage, or maybe a stunning effect. This take limits/penalizes the use of the power, but isn't more damaging (relatively speaking) to lower level characters.
#21 zombiegleemax May 12, 2005 0:38:53	rather than feats, another potion would be to use substitution levels (found is Planar handbook and other more recent products). Say at 6th, 12th and 18th levels, a player can swap out their original class for this new one all substitution level rules applying. The first level would give you a 2nd level power 3/day, the 2nd level would give you a 5th level power and another 2nd level power 3/day, the final level would give you an 8th level power 1/day and a 5th level power 3/day. This provides players with the option of 'unlocking' powerful abilities throughout their career without becoming overly focused in psionics or seriously hindering their progression in their base class.
#22 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 12, 2005 1:08:11	rather than feats, another potion would be to use substitution levels (found is Planar handbook and other more recent products). Say at 6th, 12th and 18th levels, a player can swap out their original class for this new one all substitution level rules applying. The first level would give you a 2nd level power 3/day, the 2nd level would give you a 5th level power and another 2nd level power 3/day, the final level would give you an 8th level power 1/day and a 5th level power 3/day. This provides players with the option of 'unlocking' powerful abilities throughout their career without becoming overly focused in psionics or seriously hindering their progression in their base class. We are talking about implementing the Wild Talent option from 2E here, right? The 2E version for Dark Sun was basically the same thing as taking the Hidden Talent feat at character generation, only rather than picking your power, you would roll on a table and randomly get it selected for you. As such, the Feat option definitely is farbeter, simpler, and more like the original rendition, than adding in substitute levels. The Substitute levels could be something that adds in certian flavor specific to certian races - but shouldn't be what's used to replace the 2E Wild Talent mechanic.
#23 zombiegleemax May 12, 2005 1:26:22	The 2E version for Dark Sun was basically the same thing as taking the Hidden Talent feat at character generation, only rather than picking your power, you would roll on a table and randomly get it selected for you. I agree that hidden talent basically does the job, however ame balance prohibits your character from getting teleport or disintegrate out of your 'wild talent'... substitution levels would make these high end powers available in a balanced format.
#24 zombiegleemax May 12, 2005 2:12:51	(i am not any essex that anyone else would know. essex was a mul gladiator i played some twelve years ago) thanks for all the answers. i will not buy the expanded psionics handbook, though. i bought the 3e version and this is only the first time i have ever used it. dropping another $30+ on another book just for a feat will never do for me. thanks once more.
#25 Sysane May 12, 2005 7:02:47	I agree that hidden talent basically does the job, however ame balance prohibits your character from getting teleport or disintegrate out of your 'wild talent'... substitution levels would make these high end powers available in a balanced format. The feat chain I've been proposing would do the same thing. With the prereq's in place it balances it out over a gradual progression.
#26 terminus_vortexa May 12, 2005 8:22:42	i will not buy the expanded psionics handbook, though. i bought the 3e version and this is only the first time i have ever used it. dropping another $30+ on another book just for a feat will never do for me. thanks once more. The Expanded PSHB is a beast of a different nature than the 3E version. It is so much better, and everything makes much more sense. I'd reconsider, as it can add so much to your game, and Dark Sun really is not Dark Sun without Psionics.
#27 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 12, 2005 12:25:05	(i am not any essex that anyone else would know. essex was a mul gladiator i played some twelve years ago) Ok, just wondering. A friend of mine uses that name online, and it's the name of th main character in one of his novels is all. thanks for all the answers. i will not buy the expanded psionics handbook, though. i bought the 3e version and this is only the first time i have ever used it. dropping another $30+ on another book just for a feat will never do for me. thanks once more. Well, the Expanded Psionics Handbook is a far cry from the Psionics Handbook, radicaly improved and shuffled around. But good news! You can get the rules from it from the System Reference Document avilable at wizards.com, and you technically don't need to actually buy the book to use the rules from it.