* ************* * * * * * * * * * ************* * * * ******* ************* * * * * * * * * * *** **** (ascii Chinese writing by John) Chung-Eun MOrient Material Compilation v0.4 compiled by David Melik, the Chung-Eun facilitator This is the first Compilation of MOrient material that deals specifically with Chung-Eun! I don't remember if we elected someone to do this, but I don't think we did. I figured it's about time to get it done, to help the Chung-Eun team focus on the way in the way they may want to, creating stuff for Chung- Eun. The size of this is suprising. I cut many of our posts up and organized them, and did things to save space, but it's still much bigger than I expected! This is because there are things from MO Compilation v0.1, 0.3, and many posts I found that had something more that the Chung-Eun team should probably see with the rest of the stuff. Although whole posts are kind of nice, many of us probably have copies, and they're generally in the main compilations (and so are signatures, do you still want them to be in here?), so I thought it would be a good thing to do to help the Chung-Eun team focus and move towards having a final version. There are notes telling where other parts of posts are, or if they're cut, but please tell me if they are of any use or not, if not they could be removed to save space. I'm using the organizational format I posted a while back that several people seemed to like. Since I did say I would divide the material into smaller files, I will still do the Jikushiru material if everyone wants me to, but I strongly recommend that the people that want to work on Jikushiru, or any subject, do it for themselves. In putting together the Chung-Eun material, I gained a much better understanding of it, and IIRC I'm the Chung-Eun facilitator, so this is probably very important! So if anyone else is going to put together the information on anything, please drop me a line so I don't do it too and we can get more done. Hmmm... I'm the facilitator too, so I should probably understand everything about everything. I've just realized that's a good reason for the overview section, but more importantly, something like this might help the groups coordinate. Right now it's just the part from the national descriptions list, but as we progress in group work, it would probably be useful to make it a summary of the whole material. Whatever, I said all that stuff, now lets get to the stuff! Any comments? CONTENTS Overview Location Geography Isolation Immortals Celestial Court Artifacts History Culture Language Folklore Calendar, Festivals, and Holidays Wizards Politics Dragons Campaigning Overview ############################################################################## -MChina (Chung-Eun): Humans of Jennite ancestry. Ruled by an emperor, possibly a dragon. Regional dukes and kings also have power, and compete for emperor's favor. approximately 5 million people? Great bazaars. engages in limited commerce with its southern neighbors, MKorea, and MJapan. Generally hostile toward MTibet, MManchuria, and Jennite plainsmen. Magic of all sorts is highly respected. Generally nature-based religion honoring many immortals (seelie court). Important drake secret society. traveling bureaucrats (form of the mage class) who travel from place to place to advise rulers, have schools where they teach their trade. Dragon Throne is important, powerful artifact. Above and below ground walls with magical properties (above ground wall in Jennite Sword area? underground wall in east where there is war with Jikushiru?) Rohindarthan caves here & there. Location ############################################################################## Geography ================================================================================ I don't have the Master's Map, so I'm not sure where area 10 is. My vote is for the North & West shores of Tangor Bay, stretching up into the Eastern portion of the Steppes of Jen. I think this includes part of Area 10, if I understood the posts correctly. Please interpret this vote as however it fits best, but I think MChina should definitely have access to the sea. Patrick I said this[other] because I think it's more than halfway to the Steppes of Jen, where the wall between them would be. David Melik [ If that's unclear I think I was thinking what Patrick was above ] I don't think it sould be land locked, but also should not have alot of good coast lines. John [these are from the original results.txt] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) We still have not yet reached a consensus on the location of Chung-Eun. I placed what I felt was a good location on the map and gave my reasons for it, but if the group decides, we can certainly move it. >Also, I agree with your arguments for your location of MChina. --David Knott (Kaviyd@aol.com) >No thoughts on this matter. >--"George E. Hrabovsky" >I totally agree with Patrick. I like how he placed the nations on his map >--Gabriele Ferri >I think further north and west for Chung Eun would be good. >--Joe Duncan [ the other stuff is cut ] I haven't seen any other comments. Do we consider this a majority then, or what? Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Also, I agree with your arguments for your location of MChina. It appears, >from what you said, that MChina is heavily forested in the same sense that >the eastern USA is -- you don't see an excessive amount of trees, but the >vegetation maps do show deciduous trees as the predominant vegetation. In >both cases, large numbers of trees were cut down to make way for >civilization. Am I near the mark here? [I 'm not sure who wrote this... ] Exactly. When I wrote that, I was thinking about mentioning the Eastern US or California as examples, but I decided it would just make the post longer and more confusing. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, regarding to the map Patrick made. To me MChina is a bit too small, but I'm probably a little biased:) But I actually come up with a few thing regarding to the size of MChina, more on that later. I like the rivers in MChina, as Chinese has quite a bit of myth regarding to rivers (which culture doesn't), this allow me to incorporate some of them. Is MManchuria supposed to be many separate tribes or one unified nation? If it is one nation, at that size it would probably dominate the MOrient. Also, what was the original reason for putting MEthopia in MOrient, it felt slightly out of place. I would also like MChina to be a little closer to MJapan, so more conflict can be created between them. [--John Yu] [ rest of this post in History and "Celestial Court"sections ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shin Chyang Yu wrote: >Is MManchuria supposed to be many separate tribes or one unified nation? >If it is one nation, at that size it would probably dominate the MOrient. >Also, what was the original reason for putting MEthopia in MOrient, it felt >slightly out of place. I would also like MChina to be a little closer to >MJapan, so more conflict can be created between them. The fact that everything in the area is called "Tangor something" implies that the Tangor culture is or was at play here. MAfrican cultures would make sense in Eastern Skothar as remnants of tribes left behind when Ka moved the Tangor to the Hollow World. I'm not sure who originally made the suggestion, but maybe they could elaborate. As for MManchuria, it would simply be loose tribes of barbarians with cultural ties. Perhaps we should extend Chung-Eun further eastward into the mountains? I really don't think it should extend all the way to the Sea of Brun, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I deleted a massive amount of David's explanation for accepting my placement of Chung-Eun. Suffice to say, this is exactly what I was thinking when I placed it there. >OK, as far as geographical info goes, here's what I think. If we're having >Jennite Sword as part of Chung-Eun, let's put a river on it, it's close >enough to the mountains. That would give a reason for the Chung-Eunese for >inhabiting it(or is that Chung-Eunijin or something, please correct me.) On >Brun, the mountains are broken up into smaller ones like Altan Tepes, >Wulfholdes, Wyrmsteeth, so we can break up the MChina mountains at our >discretion (we need a name, Jennite range or something - hey you guys with >Oriental dictionaries, any ideas?) When we do this, we should have a river >running through them as well. China has at least four major rivers, and The mountains should definitely be broken up, and the highlands and mountains should stretch for many miles south of the sword. How's this: The Jennite Sword itself is a very long, sharp, crest running the entire length of the range. It is somewhat similar to the Himalayas. From the Chung-Eun side, it looks like a long range of toweringly high, sharp peaks. But the Steppes on the north side gradually slope up to the sword, so that in places the mountains rise over 5,000 feet above the steppe, but in many places there are large gaps allowing access into Chung-Eun. It is through these large gaps that the hordes attack. Perhaps the high terrain is always covered with clouds, like David described for the Wall. We should definitely add a number of additional rivers as well. >I think a lot of the geographic detail is just up to the creativity of the >map-maker. Maybe Chung-Eun's capital should be at the base of the mountains >that the largest river flows In the real world, China's capital moved several times throughout history. The stuff I cut out all looks great, it just takes up too much room. >By the way if the location of Chung-Eun on Patrick's map is too far from the >center (but I think it meant central *prime plane* not central continent) >then we could have something to the N that >made them think it was still the >center. I like the idea of the mist, but I'm not sure that it's necessary. Chung-Eun should be the MOriental nation with the largest population by far. It is also located in the center of the MOrient, with civilization steadily decreasing the further from the seat of the Dragon Emperor one goes. "Central" is also largely psychological; they think primarily of themselves, they are the center of civilization, the pinnacle of humanity, the object of creation, etc. Everything is inward-focused, so naturally, Chung-Eun is the center of the universe. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, we've still got to reach a consensus, but I think I can give some help. Here's my opinion. I think we should go with what Patrick has on his map for MChina, and here's why. I looked at an atlas, and examined Mystara's maps more closely. According to the atlas, on Earth even much of modern-day China is forested, and has a lot of highlands. In MChina on Patrick's map, we have highlands and forest, and it appears the Jennite Sword is the northern part. Look at Skothar on the Mystara map. If you measure the width of the land on the river going to Tangor Bay, it's about 100 to 200 miles across, and 3400 miles long, and a river this size has to have tributaries. There's even more plains around the mountains, with smaller rivers of course. Now even *without* Jennite Sword as a part of MChina, I'd say there's *plenty* space for farming (but I'd like to keep the Jennite Sword as part of it, for sheer size of the empire). Think of the *scale* here, and compare it to the countries of the Known World. If some of us wanted farming to be important in MChina, it would be better *where it is* on Patrick's map than farther out on the steppes of Jen where there are less rivers rushing down from the mountains. Maybe the Jennite Sword could be where the Jennites always attacked MChina if it is where it is on Patrick's map, and the above-ground wall could go along it, separating it from MTibet and the Steppes of Jen. If we don't reach a consensus soon, we need another vote. Not having a place set for MChina is truly starting to hinder us. David Melik [ That might have sounded like I was pushing that idea too much, when I found out about and compared the geography I was suprised and wanted to tell everyone. I still think it's a good basic place, but also that it will vary a lot over time. It would probably even make sense for it to cover everywhere we had discussions about at one or more times in history. Perhaps much of the time it shouldn't cover the majority of the steppes of Jen because even now on earth there are nomadic people on the steppes, so civilization might have to develop and expand several times before many Jennites gave up nomadism, which they still haven't in PWA3. However, the expanse of the modern outer-world Jennites is unclear... does anyone know more about this or where the Nentsun peninsula is (Is it the part where MIndochina is)? ] Reasons for Isolation (Hiding MChina in MORIENT Compilation v0.3) ================================================================================ Due to Chinese xenophobic and egocentric attitude, they pretty much call every body else barbarians. It will be interesting to put a few "barbarians" nations close to MChina that is actually more advanced than MChina. Even more so if it is a humanoid nation, perhaps the demi-ogres? BTW, can some one relay me some info regarding to the demi-ogres, I don't remember reading about them, nor could I very easily go look them up at this time. [ from John Yu's big post in MORIENT Material Compilation v0.1] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The angle of mutual antagonism and limited contact should definitely be considered in regard to MChina. If I recall correctly, Haldemar never said there was nothing of interest on the continent of Skothar -- only that there were no great empires or civilizations. I suspect that the people of MChina would have had a similar attitude in regard to Alphatia and Thyatis. [--David Knott] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >David Melik pontificated: > >>I like the idea of having the wall thing be underground. Perhaps a chasm >>would be good too, as Kaviyd mentioned, and it still could be sort of an >>underground wall. It could be the major place where the land of luxury >>above and the war below met, if we use that idea. I don't think it's such >>a good idea to isolate and divide the area so much, with powerful magic, >>like fire or lightning or mind affecting stuff. I think the wall should >>greatly hinder attacks, but not totally. >Well, I wasn't intended for it to be impenetrable. Just something that is >really impressive looking and maybe hurt a bit. If you are just an average >grunt orc, do you want to go through a >big wall of lightning even if it >might only do a point or two of damage if you run very quickly. Also, along >the wall, there will be regular fort that allows travelers and traders to >pass through. But that is just mine idea. A big underground wall is a >pretty cool idea too, just not as impressive looking. I sort of want the >wall to be a major land mark. There's no reason why we can't have both an over and underground wall... That way it would fit with keeping the barbarians overground out, and that neat idea of a land of luxury with a bloody war below could still be used. What does everyone think about that? David Melik David Melik darwin@gp.magick.net [ aaah, I forgot my signature was turned on! ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The idea of just a big stone wall seems to be a bit unoriginal. I really like another poster comment about a underground wall. Or we go even farther. How about a wall of fire, or ice, or lightning? Or maybe a 5 mile wide zone of impenetrable darkness, making coordinate movement of large troop through the area almost impossible. The China equivalent should have pretty high magical power that it can use, and probably have quite a few artifact that has been passed down from long time ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- + I read a post about the Great Wall...Maybe this wall could be below earth + to prevent invasion from the Mystara underdark, such as deep gnolls (I'm + really fond of gnolls, don't ask me why...). Just imagine hordes of gnolls + running in tunnels attacked by groups of 'tunnel rats'. Imagine a land of + pleasure and delicacy below which rages a bloody war... I like this idea alot. The wall should definitely be something interesting. It might not even have to be that effective just have to be very, very intimating. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that a stone wall would not be particularly suitablełI just mentioned in case somebody considered it an essential part of Chinese culture. One problem with such a wall is that the Alphatians would know about itłand start to wonder about the other side. But suppose we reverse this wall into a huge ditch that is enchanted with powerful mind-affecting spells (that's right, I'm stealing from the "Xanth" series now). Any invader who fails a saving throw while passing through this region forgets why he came in the first place. Or perhaps anyone who approaches the wall from the northwest is geased to turn around, forget about the wall/ditch, and return the way he came. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like the latest idea of hidden MChina, as long as it doesn't get *too* powerful or shape Chung-Eun's society *too* much. The discussion also brings up the idea of MOriental skyships, fleets, and how they relate with surrounding ones. Maybe a killer sky navy is another reason no one messes with MChina. [--David Melik] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >3) We MUST decide why the outside world has not heard of the MOrient before. >IMO, it should be a number of factors: Minaean Pirates, barbarians on all >sides, and some sort of underwater culture (or cultures) should thrive in >the waters from the Gulf of Tangor to around where I located MKorea. They >might allow ships of the Oriental nations to sail through, but they should >demand some sort of tribute for this passage, and they should attack foreign >ships or those that won't pay immediately. [--Patrick] I'd go for cultural factors rather than underwater creatures... [--Joe] [ bits of posts cut from "loose ends" in MORIENT Material Compilation v0.3 ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- << I like the idea of a collection of things keeping them from having been "found" before. It definitely gives a DM more options to choose from. >> [--Jenni] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- One possible explanation that MChina never made contact with the Known World. China never developed a strong navy, and through out its history, there was only one famous navigator/ explorer. This is probably due to Chinese belief that the dead's body has to be buried in its homeland or the sprite will not able to rest. Therefore Chinese never like to go out to the sea where an accident could cause the body to be lost in the bottom of the ocean, where it going to be nibbled at by the sea life, which is also a very bad thing (Chinese like to be buried with a "full body" so beheading is a much worse punishment than hanging, for example). And since there are no overland route to the Known World (I'm not exactly sure about this as I have no Mystara stuff with me at the school), MChina never made contact with KW nations, with maybe the exception of a few very brave adventurers. >What about spirits+barbarians+culture+underwater race? I think we need many >factors to explain why MChina hasn't been discovered yet, one or two is not >enough for a such big area... >--Gabriele Ferri This seems to be the most plausible and agreeable choice. We'll Make a bunch of reasons, and if you have a personal preference, use it more than the others. Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I've been away for sometime and I am happy there was lots of stuff to read to know how the project is going on. There are a few ideas I had when reading that material that I'd like to discuss with you all. I've always felt oriental stories to deal with illusions and mind more than anything else. That might be one more key to hide MChina from the rest of the world. What I mean is that there is a class of magical bureaucrats in MChina, a kind of thought police. When a foreigner arrives at MChina shore, he will always find a happy and prosperous nation and he will be invited to stay, so that no word of the nation spreads to the world. Long ago, this policy was considered more efficient than repelling any contacts. Visitants are treated as important guests until they decide to settle in this wonderful country and integrate into the society. Of course, some of them will want to go back to their homes. That's when those bureaucrats enter into play. They never told he couldn't go away, just that he could stay as long as he wished, so nobody will think about departing without a good-bye but thieves. The bureaucrats specialize in two kind of magics: - Those useful to detect any try to escape unnoticed. Those people who try to do it are judged as criminals and sentenced to death. - Mind-affecting magic. The travelers are convinced that they should not depart, they are much better right there. This magic takes days to cast in a very subtle and undetectable process (by anyone not versed in their arts). Most people forget about their outer world concerns and never goes back to their homes. A few, however, are able to resist their suggestions. In these case, the most powerful bureaucrats cast a powerful forget spell that changes the memories of the affected. Usually, the rest of the crew of a ship has decided to stay back, so they give him memories of a shipwreck in an inhospitable land and take him out of the boundaries of the country. This way, Alphatia might even know nothing about them. And then, we shall have a week without magic, when somebody who survived the trip back will recover his real memories. What do you think? This would turn MChina in a darker place, where controlling somebody's mind is a common thing, but would give us lots of opportunities for adventures. Andre Martins ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Depending on where you place MChina, you may not have to go to too much >trouble to hide it. Remember, this nation is very isolationist. We can >assume that its nearest neighbors are quite familiar with it, while nations >such as Alphatia know about it do not want to advertise the fact. After all, >why wake the sleeping giant? Alphatia would certainly know about it, if there aren't very well prepared measures against it. All those skyships flying around for hundreds of years (btw, does anybody know when the Alphatian skynavy was developed?), some of them were bound to have overflown MChina, bringing news of it earlier to Alphatia. And that would have attracted the attention of several curious wizards to such a prosperous land. I could accept that only the empress and a handful of people knowing the existence of MChina would be no trouble, but if entire crews get back to Alphatia, too many people would be aware of their existence. So, shipwrecks above MChina would be in order. If Eriadna knew about MChina, I would suggest there is an enigmatic prophecy that sages have interpreted as: When Thyatis learns about MChina, Alphatia will not exist on the world anymore. Then we shall have WotI and the prophecy is fulfilled. [ maybe the Alphatians futilely try to prevent them from finding out... ] >But Alphatia is one reason that the magical brainwashing would be a very bad >idea -- unless it is done with Immortal level magic. Remember, if some >Alphatian explorer visits MChina and then manages to leave with an altered >memory, it is likely that something may go wrong with the spell once he >returns to Alphatia -- some other wizard may detect that something is wrong >and proceed to investigate. Once the Alphatians realize that people are >either disappearing or losing their memories in a certain part of the world, they would become VERY curious about >the place -- and that is the last thing >MChina would want. It might be done with an artifact in the capital. Whenever a foreigner will leave the country, no matter what they say, he is invited to the capital. The emperor himself wants to send presents to the visitant liege. There in the presence of the Dragon Throne, he forgets. We might even rule that one of the handicaps of the Throne is forgetfulness (dragons are immune to the effect) and they just put it to a good use. The Throne powers would include ship detection. Whenever a ship gets near MChina coast or MChina airspace, he who is sat there knows about it. Appropriate measures are taken. Many times, some dragons are sent to chase the ship away, so Alphatia believes the Nations of Dragons claims these lands. After the problems they had with them during the Dragonlord of Mystara series, they are not willing to provoke those mighty beasts and Eriadna makes sure everybody believes this to be the case. At other occasions, when they feel the crew has already seen too much, they invite them to stay, as I described in my previous post. Only then, the charming and the brainwashing occurs. And then we have another possibility. When Alphatia is destroyed, master Terari sees it as the fulfillment of the prophecy (he was Alphatian emperor, so he knows about it). There is no reason for secret anymore and he might tells king Stefan about the nation. This way, after the expedition to the Hollow World, Stefan might want to finance another discovery journey. The age of great navigations is open, with Karameikos playing the role of Portugal or Spain. Andre Martins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ the rest of this was replied to by Andre above ] But one interesting possibility is that Alphatian propaganda was constantly poo-pooing the idea that there are any civilized empires on Skothar -- and they were generally believed as long as nobody but Jennite barbarians and Minaean pirates were contradicting them. However, once Alphatia was out of the picture, people would realize that these people were not just making up their story of a great "anti-Alphatian" empire in the east. [--David Knott] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ As of 960 AC, appears to have been ignorant of Tangor and the "Great Empire" of MChina -- or perhaps the depiction of these nations on the Thyatian map was so distorted that he did not make the association. In particular, the location given on the proposed map of Skothar puts MChina in a different location from the "Empire of the Great Khan" -- it is actually a part of Tangor according to the seriously distorted Thyatian map. But it is not necessary to assume a complete lack of contact between Alphatia and MOrient -- just that any such contact prior to 965 AC was not common knowledge. Remember, Haldemar never visited Skothar! Thus, it is quite possible that Alphatian merchants and adventurers opened up contact with MChina towards the end of the 10th century, only to withdraw as the concerns of WoI diverted their attention. On the other hand, MChina could still have a substantial colony of Alphatian expatriates -- perhaps the beginning of MHong Kong? [--David Knott] The more I thought about it, the more I realized that it really is ridiculous to believe that Alphatians would be completely ignorant of the MOrient. I'm more inclined to say that they have had conflict that was very negative for both sides. After all, Chung-Eun can put up at least as good a fight as Thyatis, which Alphatia seems to have a bad habit of losing to. Eriadna an a few other high-level Alphatians know of the MOrient, but they work hard to keep it a secret. When you think about it, Why would Haldemar just flat-out state that there was nothing interesting in Skothar without ever checking unless he was hiding something under orders from Eriadna? [--Patrick] Yes it certainly is wrong for them to be ignorant, they can find out many things with their magic. I don't know if it was mentioned before, but perhaps some dragons and MOriental spirits ruthlessly protect MOrient from Alphatian attack, and they've had bad experiences messing with them, so don't plan to try again very much. Of course it's a combination of things. [--David Melik] Immortals ############################################################################## [ this section exists because even if faeries are just exalted, those are grouped with immortals ] Celestial Court ============================================================================== [note -- Mystaros sent a post and said it might help for inspiration for the seelie court. However, when I was looking back throught my MOrient mailbox, I couldn't find it for some reason. I have a feeling someone might have forwarded it to the team, so I'll have to go and look through it all again. I think it was one of the biggest posts I've ever seen though, and it might be on his webpage, so perhaps it would be good for people to look there or through their posts if they want to work on the seelie court. If anyone has more info. let me know. ] > > + > So one way of getting around this that I thought of is using the seelie + > court. For some reason the fairies in MChina is more interested in the + > welfare of the mortals than their western counterparts + Hi John, + I knew there were "spirits" in Chinese folklore, but are you choosing to + adopt the terminology of Celtic fairy? Aren't there labels more suited to + the orient? I'm thinking of keeping them separate. The seelie/celestial court is filled by the powerful fairies, nearly immortal in power. While the spirits have considerably less power. Actually come to think of it, this might work out quite similar to Chinese mythology. A little background info first, the spirits are come to being when those nature animals or plants start on the "path." How they able to start was never clearly described, AFAIK, probably they just happen to live in a highly magical area for a long time. After 50 to 100 years or so, they can take on human form. If they stay on the right path, they can sooner or later (generally several hundreds or thousands of years) became a god. If they stray on to the wrong path, they will be condemned by the heaven and be destroyed. In game term, this could be that minor spirits, after gaining certain amount of power could be invited into the celestial court. Powerful magic user could also became a god. this could be using a spell similar to Lich, but instead of turned into an undead, the caster is turned into a powerful fairy and join the court. BTW, in Chinese folk belief, gods is not all powerful. They are below buddas in power. And while godhood can sometime be obtained by just eating some alchemy formulas, one can became a budda only through total devotion, selfless sacrifice, etc. Also, IIRC, a god is not out of the "great cycle," meaning that after a certain amount of time they have to start at the beginning and be a mortal again. And once became a god, one can never became a budda. So, I think in game term, Immortals = budda and Powerful fairy = god. Just my opinion. As I said before, the main reason I like this is there are just too many gods in Chinese folk stories to create an immortal out of each one. Hum, looking back at my post, it might be a little confusing. Feel free to ask me any questions to clarify anything or tell me what you think of this. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. [ Perhaps exalted instead of immortal status would be good for the gods then... ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shelby Michlin pontificated: > + This is pretty fascinating stuff for a Westerner, or at least for this one. + What do you think of the Oriental pantheons in Deities and Demigods/Legends + and Lore etc.? Where does that (polytheism) fit into the milieu of Buddhism, + Confucianism, Taoism and folk tales? I only flip through L&L once, and don't remember much about it. Polytheism is what the commoners "believes". Most people don't know whether a "god" came from Buddhism, Taoism, or somewhere else, nor do they really care. + What's the "Immortal Law" you refer to above? I was talking about Chinese belief that important people are incarnation of minor god, etc. In game term, that would mean immortal will directly involves in mortal realm. However, something I just thought up is that those people were incarnation of an old secret race of ... whatever. This race are very interested in welfare of MChina, but do not want to directly involved. So, they take form of human and work themselves into important position when MChina is in trouble. They could do this by either polymorph into human and make up their childhood history when they first met someone(most of those people have a very humble beginning, which would not be difficult to fabricate, especially if the superace have some mind altering power). Or maybe they can "plant" themselves into a woman's womb and came into human's world that way. I like the idea of a super-race instead of minor immortals so we don't have to spend time creating a whole new pantheon. The major gods could just be the same immortals that have already been published, just took a different name when in MChina, with a few addition immortal that is MChina specific. + In an earlier post you mentioned that the older, original Great Wall is in + fact a mound, while the stone wall people picture was only built within the + past few hundred years. Are you saying that the original Great Wall was + built as a mound, or that all that remains of it is a mound? Sorry, I don't really know. + Thank you again, I think your contributions are a terrific opportunity to + get Oriental cultures "right." Just doing what I can. BTW, I left Taiwan before I even finished elementary school, so by no mean I'm an authority on China. So if someone found different info on what I described, feel free to correct me. [ rest of this in Culture - Names ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- One common motif in Chinese mythology is the Celestial Court, which is similar to the Mt. Olympus of the Greek myth that it is a gathering of the Chinese gods. However, since the number of Chinese gods could easily be in the hundreds if not thousands, it would be difficult in my opinion to create that many immortals. So one way of getting around this that I thought of is using the seelie court. For some reason the fairies in MChina is more interested in the welfare of the mortals than their western counterparts. So they have been "helping out" quite a bit over the history of MChina. So the commoner mistaken some of the more powerful good folks to be immortals and start to warship them. The clerics in MChina know that is not the case, but the idea is too deep rooted for them to bother to change it. The famous people that are believed to incarnation of gods could just be changelings or actual fairy spirit incarnated into human baby for one life time, probably either as a punishment or the seelie court like to get something done that a normal human can't be trusted. So, this is the gist of my idea, what do people think about it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Based on the MO poll, seems like most people does not object the Celestial Court/Seelie Court connection. So I'm thinking based on PC1, the fairies are exiled immortals, so perhaps, MChinese and maybe other MOrientals were the descendent of the original followers of those immortals. And agreement between the MOfairies and immortals allow them to keep this region somewhat isolated from rest of Mystara. For one reason or the other the MOfairies are more interested in the mortal affair than their western counterparts, and try to guide them. One way to do so is by incarnate into human babies. When a fairy does that he lost his memory, but the baby generally grow up to be quite exceptional. So even if he was from a poor family he quickly reaches position of power. And at critical time, his old fairy friends will reveal the truth or at least part of truth to him either through dream or a surreal encounter. Generally at a time, there are a handful of those "changeling" in the mortal realm with one the emperor. The fairy that does this type of incarnation often are a special type unique in MOrient. They are generally associated with some type of animal and in fairy form, they can polymorph into those animals at will. Even incarnated into human, sometime when asleep or unconscious, their sprite escape the body and the animal form seen. Some of those fairy includes the White Tiger which generally becomes general that defend the country, the Black Dragon who becomes barbaric leaders that lead invasion into MChina to test and strengthen it (or to cause a change in dynasty if one stray too far from the path), the Gold Dragons which become (hopefully) the emperors. A few rogue fairy such as the Giant Toad and the Rat, meanwhile, try to cause chaos and disruptions in MChina. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. [ rest of this post in History and Celestial Courtsections ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Based on the MO poll, seems like most people does not object the Celestial >Court/Seelie Court connection. [see message above for rest] I like the basic premise, but I don't think the fairies should be quite this powerful. It seems to trivialize the role of humans (and dragons, if they are the real rulers). Perhaps if the fairies could manipulate events more subtly than taking the throne? Fairies could be the rulers of several of the smaller dominions. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use with modifications - many of the types listed in, for instance, PC1 are far too Western, but if we treat them as a template to build off of, modifying for cultural variances, then we would not only have an excellent MChinese Celestial Court, but also the basis for the MJapanese kami. They might even have contact with Oberon and Titania's Seelie Court as 'our esteemed Imperial cousins in the distant barbarian lands,' and treat them as distant near-equals. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been thinking about this one and I believe drakes would be perfect in MChina. Their original form is draconic, they can shapeshift to human (or elfish or dwarven) form at will. Besides, PCA1 tells us they have started fighting law so that no other Blackmoor, with their destructive power, could ever rise again. Most of them have forgotten their origns, but those in MChina haven't. Drakes should form a secret society, dedicated to destroy any blackmorian artifact discovered in Skothar and to prevent MChina to rise as a world power. And they account for part of the pantheon. The occasional finding of blackmorian devices could explain why the fairies are more interested in MChina than in the nations in Brun. Andre Martins [ should we use this as part of the celestial court or something else, without Blackmoor stuff? ] Artifacts ============================================================================== The Tree Whether this tree has any real magical powers or not is subject to academic discussions among the chung-euneses(?) academicians. It doesn't detect to any form of magical detection, but it stands more than a millenia after Rohindarta dat under it and remaint verdant even after hit by a number of thunderbolts. It has no obvious magical use, but the followers of Rohindarta have to travel there at the beginnning of their treinament. They sit under it for a whole month, without moving, even eating, for a whole month, when they claim to contact Rohindarta. Some claim their spiritual journey take just one hour, some claim it takes years, where they travel to marvellous places, but the fact is that all of them meditate for a full month, coming back in a state of full healthy. It is even claimed that none of them can be hurt while meditating there, something that is probably true, as their most advanced clerics have this power everywhere. The Dragon Trone Rohindarta understood the world as a great illusion where pain and death were unavoidable lies. So he decided to create an item that would reflect his vision of the world. The trone was created from a big branch from the treee where he had sat under, that he carved by himself. Anyone sitting on the trone, has its senses enhanced to a point that he or she can become aware of everything happening inside Chung-Eun. A sensation of well-being and detachment of mundane things also comes with the experience and the person there sat is completely shielded from any external influences. However, that amount of information is overwhelming for any creature. Dragons, somehow, are able to ignore most of it and concentrate on just a few things, like detecting ships and oulanders that get close to the country. Humans have their mind completely altered even by touching it and, if there is a dragon sat on the trone, he can use that state to plant whatever memories he wants in their brains. Oddly, whatever they start believing to be their true past, has real effects on the world. Mages whose fake experiences include the learning of a new spell, find this spell written in their books later, scars really appear on people's faces and so on. History (Chung-Eun New Year in MORIENT Compilation v0.3) ############################################################################## After reviewing the scanty "official" material about Skothar, I have come to realize that this continent just begs for further development. Referring to Dragon #153, where the "Princess Ark" series begins, I see many place names from the old Master's set given, along with commentary by Prince Haldemar stating that all of it is wrong. However, he seems to overstate his casełat least one of the nations whose existence he rejected, Tangor, actually exists on Mystara. I would suggest that he was equally mistaken about the "Empire of the Great Khan" in central Skothar, which the Alphatians never explored because they never got past the Jennites and Minaeans of the coastal regions. This would be the perfect location for a culture based on that of China. This "Great Empire" was originally settled by Jennite nomads and was prey to attacks from them until they were weakened by a civil war that destroyed many of the nomads and caused many others to be transported to the Hollow World. If you want a "Great Wall" to exist, it is certainly conceivable that they would have built one between the Empire and the Steppes of Jen. Anyway, once the Jennites were out of the picture, the "Great Empire" began its rise to greatness. Eventually they became so powerful that their enemiesł the Jennite nomads to the northwest, the Minaean pirates to the southwest, and the Nentsun humanoids of the surrounding mountains -- wereforced to respect their borders. They built a single seaport next to the Sea of Zamara and sent out trading expeditions all over the world but avoided "barbaric, uncivilized" areas such as Alphatia, Bellisaria, the Isle of Dawn, and the continent of Brun (in short, all of the "Known World"). For various reasons, they regarded the Alphatians and later Thyatians as barbarians of the worst sort, and the sack of their seaport by the Alphatians ca. 700 AC only confirmed this attitudełas well as initiating a period of isolationism from which the Great Empire has not yet emerged. (For their part, the Alphatians thought that the seaport they sacked was a Minaean pirate base.) The Great Empire is currently ruled by a gold dragon who assumes human form on the few occasions when he must interact with his subjects. When-ever the emperor dies, a new emperor is selected by the other dragons. Each "dynasty" of emperors is actually the single reign of a particular dragon. The character of the nation changes considerably depending on what type of dragon the current emperor isłfor example, the Great Empire was very militant and aggressive when its ruler was a red dragon. Once in a while a human Mage pretending to be a dragon assumes power, but such impostors are generally deposed after a brief but bloody civil war. [ Joe ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, there's nothing to say that individual MChinese heroes couldn't be secretly Celestial Court Folk/kami/Immortal avatars/heroes who later became Immortals/mystic beings in human form/heroes who were later taken by the Immortals as Titans or the like. After all, in all the history and legend MChina's likely to have, it'd be surprising if most of these hadn't happened at one time or another. Scott [from results.txt ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like the idea of a throne that no human may sit on, perhaps an artifact granted by the Immortal patron of MChina (The Great One?). There have, however, been emperors who were other races shapeshifted into human form, and even, once, when the humanoid barbarians overran MChina, a gnoll who usurped the throne and held it for his entire lifespan (paralleling the real Chinese dynasties of Mongol or other steppe barbarian conquerors). Scott [from results.txt ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now about MChina, in order to incorporate as many time periods of historic China into the game, and make an interesting adventure background, I'm thinking of the following: MChina was quite a bit stronger than now, but certain event has weaken it recently (perhaps the WotI). So now the actual MChina emperor is weaker, and much power have shifted to the regional Kings or Dukes (about 3 to 7 in number with real power, there might be even more of them, but they don't have enough resources to compete with the big boys). Each of those Lords is eyeing the Dragon Throne, but to declare that openly will give the other Lords the reason to attack him, so each are claiming they want to protect the emperor and like help the emperor to unify the empire again. Each of the territory control by the Lords can be based on different time period or region of historical China. The relationship between MChina and neighboring nations are becoming unstable too. At the time when MChina was dominating, most of the neighboring nations and barbaric tribes near MChina's border send annual tribute to MChina's capital. But now only a few of them still do so, and some of them are actually starting to test the water and skirmishing across the border. [--John] [ the rest of this post is in the Geography and Celestial Court sections ] Calendar, Festivals, and Holidays (Chung-Eun New Year in MORIENT Compilation v0.3) ============================================================================== Anyway, given that the Chinese New Year is coming up, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about MChina's equivalent. I would propose, given the approximate date of the real world Chinese New Year, that MChina's New Year begin on Vatermont 1 -- the second month of the Thyatian calendar. We could probably use the Chinese month names, adjusted as necessary for the actual Mystaran seasons. For the year names, we could make appropriate substitutions of mythological monsters for animals -- for example, the Mystaran counterpart to the upcoming Year of the Ox could be the Year of the Gorgon. Also, could somebody give the rest of us a quick run-down of how the Chinese New Year is typically celebrated? I recall seeing scenes of parades through Chinatown, but I know practically nothing else of what is involved in the celebrations. Finally, what are some of the other major Chinese holidays that could be translated into MChina? [ Who wrote this? It wasn't me... ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a note, this is very long. I got carried away a little. Chinese month names are quite simple, First Moon, Second Moon, etc. It would probably more appropriate to push back the Chinese New Year a little bit, as it is supposed to be near spring (I think it suppose to be in the mid point between winter and spring solstice, but don't quote me on that). The actual name for Chinese New Year is the Spring Festival. So it might be better to place it at Vatermont 14 or Thaumont 1. I don't have any reference ready, but how does Mystrian moon cycle works. Based on Chinese lunar calendar each month is 29 or 30 days with full moon at the 15th and new moon at the 1st. Every several year a leap month is added sometime during the year to even off the calendar. In Chinese lunar Calendar the first three month is the spring, next three the summer, etc. The celebration for CNY starts at December, where family salts and cures meats (December is also called the "cure month"). The Chinese view of CNY is somewhat similar to American on Thanksgiving where the family suppose to be together. On NY's eve the tradition is to stay awake past the midnight. On NY's day people go around visiting friends and family to wishing happy new year. Elders give children money inside red envelops. The traditional food include dumplings, year cake (a sticky rice cake which is either cook as a dish or in a soup or made sweet as a desert, the cured meats, sausages, and fish. The fish is important because of a pun. In place where fish is rare, people sometimes use a wooden substitution just for the show. Lots o' fireworks, lion dance, dragon dance and stuff. People generally wear new cloth at this day. Another tradition is write the word "spring" on a piece of red paper (red is a color of joy in China) and stick it up side down on the door, another pun symbolize the coming of spring. On the both sides of front door a a special 2 line poem is also written on red paper and posted up, generally with something on the top of the door that goes with it. There are probably quite a bit more stuff, but this is all I can think of at the top of my head right now. Oh, gambling is quite common on NYD and children is often allow to drink a little bit. The celebration generally continual for another couple of days. On third day of Jan, the wives visit their own family, and people generally go back to work on the 4th of Jan. But the official end of CNY celebration comes at the 15th of Jan., the Lantern Festival, where people walk around the street carrying a lantern. The city also held a lantern show along with the rich families. The rich family also held riddle competition and give out prizes for people answers the riddles correctly. The food to eat on this day is a small round rice cake ball, sometime with sweet stuffing inside, in a sweet soup. The ball symbolize the wholeness and the completeness of the family. Oh every household is suppose to have a kitchen god watch over them, and on Jan 2nd he is going back to heaven and report to the Celestial Emperor about the past year of the family. So some family put up the painting of the kitchen god and smear some sweet rice cake on the mouth to "sweet" up his report :). There are 3 major holiday during the year. First is the CNY/Spring Festival. The second on May 5th is called the "Righteous Noon" (the best translation I can think of) or more commonly known now as the Dragon Boat Festival. As the mid summer is approaching, people on this day take steps to protect themselves from the summers epidemics. Sulfur wine is drink to drive out the poison in the body. Red runes written on yellow paper is stuck on various places of the house to prevent the entering of evil sprites. The sulfur wine is greatly disliked by creature and sprites, and can force them turn back to their true form if they were in human form. Later this holiday took on some more meaning to mourn the death of a patriot poet. He jumped into a lake after his proposal to improve the nation was rejected by the emperor and got himself exiled. The people row out the lake try to rescue him, and failing that throw rice wrapped in bamboo leaves into the lake to feed the fish so they will not eat the body of the poet. This starts the tradition of the dragon boat race (where teams from different organization, county, etc. race a small long boat with a head of dragon carved in front). And eat rice wrapped in bamboo leaves. The third major holiday is the Mid-Autumn, which is on the 15th of Aug. This is the day there suppose to have the brightest full moon. Basically this is a day that people takes a break after the fall harvest. The people watch the moon, eat moon cake(a round sweet cake). There are another story associate with this day which I will tell if people are interested. Beside the three major holidays, there are a bunch of minor ones. Some I can think of are the Clear moon/Ghost day, which is on 15 of July. July is believed where the gate to underworld is open and ghost can walk on earth. On this month people is generally careful what they doing so they won't have an accident and became a substitute for one of the "good brothers" But on Clear Moon people will go to the grave of their ancestor and held a small ceremony there. There are also minor holidays on Sept. 9th and Dec. 8th, but nothing too interesting happen there. Birthday and Accension day of some popular gods are also celebrated big time depend on region. Sorry this post is so long. Hopefully people find it useful. If people want more detail on any more of the stuff, feel free to ask. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Anyway, given that the Chinese New Year is coming up, I was wondering if >anyone had any ideas about MChina's equivalent. I would propose, given the >approximate date of the real world Chinese New Year, that MChina's New Year >begin on Vatermont 1 -- the second month of the Thyatian calendar. I think >this idea has a lot of merit. TSR always did try to make their places match >up with real-world equivalencies, and this is a great example of a way to do >it. We should also consider that the YEAR for MChina should be considerably >later than the Thyatian year -- for example, we're sitting at 1997 and I >think that the current Chinese Calendar is somewhere in the 3400's or so. >We could probably use the Chinese month names, adjusted as necessary for the >actual Mystaran seasons. For the year names, we could make appropriate >substitutions of mythological monsters for animals -- for example, the >Mystaran counterpart to the upcoming Year of the Ox could be the Year of the >Gorgon. Do you really think we have to make the MChina "Years" mythological? The Northland's Gaz presents the Norse Rune System with meanings very close to their "real" meanings (with a few modifications). What's wrong with having Cats, Monkeys, Dogs, Oxen and Horses? Perhaps we could just modify a few -- based on what each real animal year represents we could pick a few where a mythological creature would fit into the same role. >Finally, what are some of the other major Chinese holidays that could be >translated into MChina? I don't know off hand, but my Mother teaches English as A Second language and about half her students are Chinese, so she is very familiar with a lot of their traditional celebrations. I'll put out some feelers and see what I can come up with. (To be honest, I'm finding the idea of figuring out the calendar and related holidays to be quite appealing. I would definitely be interested in working in this area of development, as well as working on the development of Oriental Style Dragon's) Jenni A. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >I think this idea has a lot of merit. TSR always did try to make their >places match up with real-world equivalencies, and this is a great example of >a way to do it. We should also consider that the YEAR for MChina should be >considerably later than the Thyatian year -- for example, we're sitting at >1997 and I think that the current Chinese Calendar is somewhere in the 3400's >or so. Chinese don't really count year like that. The common way to count year is by either the start of the dynasty or by years the emperor has been sitting on the throne. For example the 45th year of Tang, or the 32nd year of emperor Chian- Loon. But this might be difficult to do for us, as we need to have a pretty detailed MChina history to actually use that. >Do you really think we have to make the MChina "Years" mythological? The >Northland's Gaz presents the Norse Rune System with meanings very close to >their "real" meanings (with a few modifications). What's wrong with having >Cats, Monkeys, Dogs, Oxen and Horses? Perhaps we could Umm, no cats. The twelve animals are in order, rat, ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, goat, monkey, chicken, dog, pig. There are also a story go with the ordering (I guess Chinese really like stories), but basically those animal compete in a race and that was how they ended up. I would like to modify it so it would be different in the game world. And a little more about Chinese Calendar. The calendar is actually in a 60 year cycle. The name of each year is a combine of 1 of the ten "sky stems" and 1 of 12 "earth branches." Each year both part counts forward by one. The 12 earth branches are commonly associated with the 12 animal but they have more official names. Each 2 of the sky stems is given an elemental association. In Chinese belief, there are 5 elements, Gold/Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth. I will suggest we fudge it a bit and say Wood is equal to the Elemental Air (as the branch of the tree is extended towards the air :), and Gold to be Prime. Anyway back to the years, so each year is associated with an element and an animal, such as Fire Horse, Wood Ox, Gold Goat, etc. and are commonly referred that way in riddles, prophesies, etc. Chinese day is divided in 12 periods, each 2 hours long. Each period use the name of the earth branches. The first period starts at 1am, so that is when a Chinese day starts officially. And might be fun to use it to cause some confusion to PCs not knowing that as when Chinese refer to midnight it would actually be 1. Each period is further break down into 4 segments. Animals are not used to refer to periods of a day, but we can use it just to keep things simple. Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- As to the "no cats" reference -- I do have information on that. I read somewhere that the Year of the Rabbit used to be called the Year of the Cat -- and in fact I saw a place mat at a Chinese restaurant that made reference to cats when in fact people born in the Year of the Rabbit were meant. But I must admit that I am totally mystified as to why two such dissimilar animals would ever be associated with each other in this way. David Knott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hum, I never heard that. The story I heard is that cats were not that popular, or even introduced in China when the order was set. The folk story is that the rat tricked the cat so the cat finished 13th in the race, which is also the reason cat hates rat. I will try to check up on the cat and rabbit thing. Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. Culture ############################################################################## Language ============================================================================== [ rest of this in Celestial Court ] + PS How do we refer to you politely, as Shin, as Yu, or something else? Just call me John :) While we at it, we can go a little into Chinese names. In China, family names is generally placed first and generally are only one word (each word is one syllable in Chinese), although there are some two word last names too, and they seems to be more common in the past. Longer last name can also be heard once a while, but generally mean the family come from outer region of China, such as Mongol, Manchuria, etc., and they sometime shorten their family name once they integrated into Chinese society. Given name are generally one or two word. Traditionally, there are many families that have strict restrictions on Given Names. For example, the first word of all children from the same generation needs to be the same word, and the second words need to have some shared characteristic. Like they all have to be related to water etc. and those rules is kept in the family shrine that is located at the family's place of ancestry. Using my name as example, in Chinese it is Yu Shin Chyang. Yu is my family name, both of my sisters have Shin as the first of the given name. Our family book is back in China, so we didn't follow the strict family rule on naming. All cousin with same last name (i.e., children of you father's brother) also consider to be in the same generation and should have same first word for the given name. BTW, these rules are generally followed by more educated families, or middle class or better. When your first worry is earn enough money to survive, you tend to not worry about names as much. Traditionally, boys from educated family often have a personal names too, which is used among close friend. Commoners name is generally much simpler. A street vendor generally have names like Wong Six (for been the sixth children of the family) or Tang Big (for been the first born, or just a big guy), etc. Adventurers generally like to carry some nice sounding nicknames that Timely Rain for someone like to help out other, White Serpent in the Wave for someone who is a good swimmer and have fair skin, etc. Sorry for talk so much on fluffs, I'll try to cut down a bit in the future. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Folklore ============================================================================== [ parts of other messages cut ] Just a litle idea. In China there are myths of a Golden Age. The Empire of Xi IRC. If there is a similar myth in MChina, could there be a Xi/Blackmoor/Thonia analogy? :) Haavard R. Faanes Email: hoc@nvg.unit.no hoc@nvg.nuts.edu http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning a bit about courage" -The X-Files [ that sounds pretty cool... ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ I made this post a little smaller for the compilation, there was stuff about forwarding and lines in between paragraphs that took space... it could be easier to read with lines in between, but it's usually not done that way in books, and when we finish this all up it might be like that... if I'm going overboard on space-saving let me know. ] Hi, I've found a site in the web with chinese stories that might be useful to us. There isn't much there, though. Anyway, I'm forwarding one of their legends to the list. It's about dragons. http://itpubs.ucdavis.edu/richard/tales/4drag.html The Four Dragons A Chinese Tale ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once upon a time, there were no rivers and lakes on earth, but only the Eastern Sea, in which lived four dragons: the Long Dragon, the Yellow Dragon, the Black Dragon and the Pearl Dragon. One day the four dragons flew from the sea into the sky. They soared and dived, playing at hide-and-seek in the clouds. "Come over here quickly!" the Pearl Dragon cried out suddenly. "What's up?" asked the other three, looking down in the direction where the Pearl Dragon pointed. On the earth they saw many people putting out fruits and cakes, and burning incense sticks. They were praying! A white- haired woman, kneeling on the ground with a thin boy on her back, murmured: "Please send rain quickly, God of Heaven, to give our children rice to eat.." For there had been no rain for a long time. The crops withered, the grass turned yellow and fields cracked under the scorching sun. "How poor the people are!" said the Yellow Dragon. "And they will die if it doesn't rain soon. The Long Dragon nodded. Then he suggested, "Let's go and beg the Jade Emperor for rain." So saying, he leapt into the clouds. The others followed closely and flew towards the Heavenly Palace. Being in charge of all the affairs in heaven, on earth and in the sea, the Jade Emperor was very powerful. He was not pleased to see the dragons rushing in. "Why do you come here instead of staying in the sea and behaving yourselves?" The Long Dragon stepped forward and said, "The crops on earth are withering and dying, Your Majesty. I beg you to send rain down quickly!" "All right. You go back first, I'll send some rain down tomorrow." The Jade Emperor pretended to agree while listening to the songs of the fairies. "Thanks, Your Majesty!" The four dragons went happily back. But ten days passed, and not a drop of rain came down. The people suffered more, some eating bark, some grass roots, some forced to eat white clay when they ran out of bark and grass roots. Seeing all this, the four dragons felt very sorry, for they knew the Jade Emperor only cared about pleasure, and never took the people to heart. They could only rely on themselves to relieve the people of their miseries. But how to do it? Seeing the vast sea, the Long Dragon said that he had an idea. "What is it? Out with it, quickly!" the other three demanded. "Look, is there not plenty of water in the sea where we live? We should scoop it up and spray it towards the sky. The water will be like rain drops and come down to save the people and their crops." "Good idea!" The others clapped their hands. "But," said the Long Dragon after thinking a bit, "we will be blamed if the Jade Emperor learns of this." "I will do anything to save the people," the Yellow Dragon said resolutely. "Let's begin. We will never regret it." The Black Dragon and the Pearl Dragon were not to be outdone. They flew to the sea, scooped up water in their mouths, and then flew back into the sky, where they sprayed the water out over the earth. The four dragons flew back and forth, making the sky dark all around. Before long the sea water became rain pouring down from the sky. "It's raining! It's raining!" "The crops will be saved!" The people cried and leaped with joy. On the ground the wheat stalks raised their heads and the sorghum stalks straightened up. The god of the sea discovered these events and reported to the Jade Emperor. "How dare the four dragons bring rain without my permission!" The Jade Em-peror was enraged, and ordered the heavenly generals and their troops to arrest the four dragons. Being far outnumbered, the four dragons could not defend themselves, and they were soon arrested and brought back to the heavenly palace. "Go and get four mountains to lay upon them so that they can never escape!" The Jade Emperor ordered the Mountain God. The Mountain God used his magic power to make four mountains fly there, whistling in the wind from afar, and pressed them down upon the four dragons. Imprisoned as they were, they never regretted their actions. Determined to do good for the people forever, they turned themselves into four rivers, which flowed past high mountains and deep valleys, crossing the land from the west to the east and finally emptying into the sea. And so China's four great rivers were formed -- the Heilongjian (Black Dragon) in the far north, the Huanghe (Yellow River) in central China, the Changjiang (Yangtze, or Long River) farther south, and the Zhujiang (Pearl) in the very far south. [--Andre] Wizards ============================================================================== There certainly should be a lot of magic in MChina, but not the semi-organized, wizards-behind-every-door magic of Alphatia. Instead, there are reclusive hermits with celestial powers, colonies of mysterious magical animals who act like humans and with great charms and potent secrets, hidden caves and glens where the spirits gather, mysterious tomes and scrolls that are legacies of the great philosophers of the past, minor divinations and charms used everyday that are *probably* just folk ritual but nobody knows for sure... mystical happenings, superstitions, and strange and wonderous sights, but relatively little organized, public magic. Scott [ from results.txt ] [ this seems great for describing wizards in Chung-Eun! ] Politics ############################################################################## Dragons ============================================================================== [ these are parts from DRAG.TXT of MO Compilation v0.1 and results from Compilation v0.3 that are relevant to Chung-Eun dragons as rulers... *not* types of dragons, folklore, or as PCs, since that is not restricted to Chung- Eun... however sometimes it's hard to know where to draw the line... any ideas on how we should organize dragon stuff? ] - The Emperor of Chung-Eun is an Oriental Dragon (at least he’s supposed to be) Comments: if, by supposed, you mean "believed to be mythologically", in the manner that Egyptians believed their pharaohs to trace lineage all the way to Ra, but they never did anything to prove this, and people didn't care, then yes. Simon Seah Yes, but only metaphorically - people refer to the land as if it was a dragon, more specifically as if it were an extension of the Emperor. Place names based on parts of a dragon's body are moderately common, and the weather and social climate can be seen as the dragon's temper - 'The Emperor smiles on us today' if it is sunny and pleasant, or 'the Dragon is rumbling' if the populace is growing frustrated of an overbearing governor. [Referring to the whole of MChina being a dragon] Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Emperor can have Half-Dragon offspring Comments: Although, I prefer true dragons, Dragon King gets bored, abdicates to eldest child, goes away and doesn't care anymore. That he doesn't care thereafter lets us have reigns based on the present Dragon King's whims (in turn perhaps connected to his age). Simon Seah Very rare, and with human features. Andre Martins However, they're extremely rare - one in a generation would be an auspicious sign of fertility, and many emperors go their whole lives without offspring. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dragon blood is required to be imperial royalty Comments: I think only the Emperor requires dragon blood, but loyal and worthy humans could become the remaining lesser nobility for the country. Estlor Perhaps not necessarily dragon, but some sort of special lineage John That is the law, but it is considered an insult, punishable by death if you are wrong, to doubt the draconian blood of a rightful noble. Andre Martins Probably not for all levels of nobility, but definitely for the emperor. Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ parts from DRAG.TXT ] << The Great Empire is currently ruled by a gold dragon who assumes human form on the few occasions when he must interact with his subjects. When-ever the emperor dies, a new emperor is selected by the other dragons. Each "dynasty" of emperors is actually the single reign of a particular dragon. The character of the nation changes considerably depending on what type of dragon the current emperor isłfor example, the Great Empire was very militant and aggressive when its ruler was a red dragon. Once in a while a human Mage pretending to be a dragon assumes power, but such impostors are generally deposed after a brief but bloody civil war. >> << Far below the temple city of the Emperor there's a cave where the Emperor drinks the blood of the Dragon to have immortality and full knowledge of its land and its inhabitant. But the more blood the Emperor drinks the more its soul dissolves in the land and in the spirit of the Dragon. Some Emperors are so close to the Dragon, and so so far from the 'reality' that they have to be removed. >> << And, while I figured that it would be common knowledge that the emperor is a dragon, I also figured that he would assume human form to interact with his subjects -- not to deceive them, but for convenience. However, I do see another possibility that should be considered. If the dragon-emperor rules in human form, he would be expected to gather a harem of human wives. The result could be a large number of half-dragon noble offspring. So the elite warriors of MChina would not be dragon riders but half-dragons. >> << As for the emperor, he might not able to take the form of dragon for one reason or the other. A true ruler should be a golden dragon, but one can never tell whether the emperor is the true ruler or not. Some of the famous usurper or corrupted emperors are said to be incarnation of toad, giant rat, etc. >> [--John Yu ] << For the MChina setting, I agree that Dragons should be extremely rare (at least as far as the commoners know). >> [--John Yu ] [...] I'm also thinking about several different ways that we can treat the Dragon emperor. One is that the emperor is a true dragon is known to every one and no one will question his authority. This will make the campaign in MChina more static. Another is that the emperor SHOULD be a dragon, but no one knows for sure. This will add more court intrigue into the campaign as all of the contenders for the position of emperor like to think they are the true dragon and try to convince others of that too. The Dragon Throne is probably a powerful artifact that kill any normal human sits on there. One needs to have special blood or spirit inside to safely sit on it, but he not necessarily have to be a dragon, as other animal incarnation could also sit on it. So by just sitting on the Throne can't be used as a test. Just a few ideas that popped into my head. Feel free to make any comments. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Campaigning ============================================================================== This could bring plenty of good adventures into existence...think of the trouble a party would have to go through to check to see if the emperor has truly been replaced by a mage or not. Everyone will think he is a dragon, but there will be no evidence. Estlor